Zito = Opening Day Starter

by hairball on Feb 14, 2008 12:14 PM PST Comment 56 comments

As per Schulman. Link here.

Good time to reflect on the wisdom of the ancients:

Handing Zito the opening day gig says:
Sorry, kids; tenure is more important than performance
We aren't paying this guy to be a #3
The philosophy trickles down to every part of the organization. Kevin Frandsen? Sorry, kid. Tenure is more important than performance, and we aren't paying Durham to sit on the bench. Fred Lewis? Sorry, kid. Tenure is more important than performance, and we aren't paying Dave Roberts to sit on the bench. Jonathan Sanchez? Tenure, performance, Russ Ortiz. It's the Decline and Fall of the Sabean Empire in two bullet points.

Indeed. Warrior spirit, people!

This FanPost is reader-generated, and it does not necessarily reflect the views of McCovey Chronicles. If the author uses filler to achieve the minimum word requirement, a moderator may edit the FanPost for his or her own amusement.

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Re: Zito

Man, even Zito said that Cain deserved the start.

Though maybe that ~self-sacrificing attitude~ is what gave the nod to Zito after all.

Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.

by jponry on Feb 14, 2008 12:14 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

Re: Zito = Opening Day Starter

Meh. It makes no real difference. Who really cares who the definite "ace" is on a shitty team?

by boonitez on Feb 14, 2008 12:18 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

Re: Zito = Opening Day Starter

philosophical differences, as written in post above

you will suffer humiliation when the sports team from my area defeats the sports team from your area

by nick on Feb 14, 2008 4:41 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Whatever

Zito starting ahead of Cain will not cause me to lose any sleep. Roberts starting ahead of any of our other OF option - that's what keeps me up at night.

by KCE on Feb 14, 2008 12:20 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

Re: Zito = Opening Day Starter

I said it before and I'll say it again. Opening Day starter is an honorary thing for the leader of your staff. That would be Barry Zito. It's one day. It doesn't send a message to Kevin Frandsen or anything like that. If it does, the message is a positive one, that you respect your veterans. One day Frandsen will get the respect that Zito does. Cain doesn't need the added pressure of an Opening Day start anyway after all the crap he went through last year.

2008 Rolaids Relief winner: Randy Messenger

by rxmeister on Feb 14, 2008 12:27 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

Re: Zito = Opening Day Starter

we disagree that "respect your veterans" is a positive message for the giants.
off the top of my head: "good performances will be rewarded with playing time" "you will be DFA'd if you OPS under 700" and "don't give up 7 runs every start in april" are positive messages. ok, so they're negative, but good messages, neverthelessly.

Southern California: Water thieves and Dodgers fans.

by jasomack on Feb 14, 2008 4:36 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Zito = Opening Day Starter

Maybe its so Cain or Lincecum end up pitching the Giants' home opener?

by jordanovich on Feb 14, 2008 12:40 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

Re: Zito = Opening Day Starter

I really don't want to care. I wanna be like boonitez and just think: "too bad". But this bothers me. It really bothers me.

If Bochy/Sabean can't see that Cain is the right choice, how can I trust them to rebuild this team?

Cain is a way, way better pitcher. He's more popular then Zito, and will attract more crowd. He has been described lately as the new leader of clubhouse, and the new face of the franchise.

The only reason to pick Zito is that Sebean doesn't want to admit his mistake(s) (We aren't paying this guy to be a #3).

And how, in any way, could you start rebuilding a team without acknowledging your past mistakes? I mean, when you say a team needs to rebuild, aren't you basically saying that they messed up so bad the just need to start over? How can you change strategy when you refuse to admit the last one was wrong?

I don't care if it's meaningless. I don't care if it's not finale. This is everything that is wrong with the Giants.

You deserve to be struck out, when your first name's a verb.

by Cookyman on Feb 14, 2008 12:42 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

Re: Zito = Opening Day Starter

And how, in any way, could you start rebuilding a team without acknowledging your past mistakes? I mean, when you say a team needs to rebuild, aren't you basically saying that they messed up so bad they just need to start over? How can you change strategy when you refuse to admit the last one was wrong?

Yeah.

by Evan on Feb 14, 2008 12:57 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Zito = Opening Day Starter

I kind of agree with you here. The full article is now up, here.

"Matt is still young. He'll be an Opening Day pitcher," Bochy said. "This year, we just felt Zito should have that start. I think as much as anything this is something he earned with the way he pitched at the end of last season. Barry, he's accustomed to it. It makes sense to send him out there Opening Day."

You know, he's only been the manager 1 season, and already I can't stand this guy. He is so damn predictable- how the heck can I possibly believe that he will ever play kids over veterans. It's borderline impossible. He'll find a way to play vets. When the vets are broken down, he'll be part of the magical front office parade that ushers in new ones.

***

Succumb to the Enchanted t-shirt! Adopted dad of Minor Izzy

by hairball on Feb 14, 2008 1:08 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Zito = Opening Day Starter

"I think as much as anything this is something he earned with the way he pitched at the end of last season."

LOL AND MATT CAIN EARNED JACK CRAP BY OUTPITCHING ZITO ALL YEAR, INCLUDING THE END OF LAST SEASON!

Well, that fulfills my all caps req for the month.

But really, you can't say one guy earned it with his play when another guy actually played better than him during the same period you're referencing. You might as well just say "Zito's started, like, what, 15 opening days? That's what it says on my stat sheet here. Matt Cain's started like, negative five of them. Zito's "# of opening day starts" stats are way better than Cain's. See, we're just playing the matchup."

He is Vengeance. He is the Knight. He is Dave Righetti. PRAY TO HIM!

by howtheyscored on Feb 14, 2008 1:13 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Zito = Opening Day Starter

It's true -- Matt Cain's winning percentage in opening-day starts is .000. So it's stathead move, really.

by Evan on Feb 14, 2008 1:16 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Zito = Opening Day Starter

don't know how I (and everybody else) couldve possibly looked past that

you will suffer humiliation when the sports team from my area defeats the sports team from your area

by nick on Feb 14, 2008 4:42 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Zito = Opening Day Starter

That's why it's called Moneyball, nick.

He is Vengeance. He is the Knight. He is Dave Righetti. PRAY TO HIM!

by howtheyscored on Feb 14, 2008 6:01 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Zito = Opening Day Starter

zero dollars per win = amazing cost-effectiveness

you will suffer humiliation when the sports team from my area defeats the sports team from your area

by nick on Feb 14, 2008 6:22 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Exactly

Zito - August: 2.50 ERA, 30 K's, 11 BB. September: 4.25 ERA, 20 K's, 14 BB.

Cain in August: 2.18 ERA, 40 K's, 8 BB. September: 4.08, 27 K's, 6 BB. Cain struck out over 20% of the batters he faced during August and September (thanks, Xanthan).

Even if for some weird reason only the last two months matter, Cain was still way better.

You deserve to be struck out, when your first name's a verb.

by Cookyman on Feb 14, 2008 1:23 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Exactly

I don't care who you are, that's funny right there.

Giant Expectations

by UnleashTheGore on Feb 14, 2008 4:00 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Exactly

larry?

him?

you will suffer humiliation when the sports team from my area defeats the sports team from your area

by nick on Feb 14, 2008 4:43 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Exactly

Yeah, but how many wins did each of them get?

That's the important statistic right there.

Kidding!

Nate Schierholtz cannot play third base. Nate Schierholtz cannot play third base. Steve Kline is pretty okay. Nate Schierholtz cannot play third base.

by groug on Feb 14, 2008 4:04 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Zito = Opening Day Starter

Wow, that end of the year comment is maybe the stupidest thing I've ever heard. Cain was a beast in the last two months of the season.

Just, wow.

by xanthan on Feb 14, 2008 1:42 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Zito = Opening Day Starter

You've also fulfilled your "jack crap" requirement for the month...or year.

Here's to Kemp, Loney, LaRoche, Hu, and Kershaw not panning out.

by Woody Wins on Feb 15, 2008 6:32 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Zito = Opening Day Starter

I may have fulfilled the requirement, but when it comes to jack crap I don't limit myself to the basic requirements. I like to go above and beyond.

He is Vengeance. He is the Knight. He is Dave Righetti. PRAY TO HIM!

by howtheyscored on Feb 15, 2008 7:57 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Zito = Opening Day Starter

As Giants fans, I think that applies to all of us.

Here's to Kemp, Loney, LaRoche, Hu, and Kershaw not panning out.

by Woody Wins on Feb 15, 2008 8:28 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Zito = Opening Day Starter

Zito starting doesn't bother me much. Bochy saying he earned it does.

by mxmob33 on Feb 14, 2008 1:33 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Zito = Opening Day Starter

Yup. The Giants will always take the mediocre vet over the younger player who has the potential to do better - we knew that. But what this displays is the idiocy that they'll take the vet over the younger player who IS better. There isn't a soul in baseball who thinks Barry Zito is a better pitcher than Matt Cain, but the Giants are more interested in self-delusion. It bothers me a lot because of the message it sends - contract/status 1st, performance 2nd.

Jonathan Sanchez. He's left-handed, like Barry Zito. His fastball breaks 80, unlike Zito.

by Aadik on Feb 14, 2008 1:43 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Zito = Opening Day Starter

I'm not thinking "too bad" I'm thinking "who gives a shit." Being the #1 starter in a rotation is a nice title, but it's also a shitload of pressure to put on a 23 year old kid. I know he has proven he is probably hands down the best pitcher on our team, but does making him the #1 starter and putting him up against the likes of Jake Peavy, Brandon Webb, Brad Penny, Johan Santana, Carlos Zambrano, Ben Sheets, John Smoltz, etc. make him any better? No. He would lose almost every game next season because of the same issue he had last year; run support. Our offense is about to suck bigtime, and it'll suck even more against the bigname aces of the NL. His run support will be even worse than the 3.5whatever per game it was last year. He would probably be the best 2-20 pitcher in the history of baseball. and we thought it was Amazing that he didn't start throwing feces at the wall and huddling in the corner crying 'redrum' because of what happened last year. So is it really THAT huge a deal if we just make him the second starter to Barry Zito who has been around long enough to know that his team just sucks and the baseball gods don't hate him? He'll get around the same number of innings against some not-as-good #2 pitchers. He'll probably be the best 7-18 pitchers in baseball, but hey, that's better than 2-20. It's not at all like playing Durham over Frandsen at 2B. He'll still get just as much playing time. He's not just gonna warm the bench for us. That's why I don't care where he starts.

by boonitez on Feb 14, 2008 2:26 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Zito = Opening Day Starter

While your argument is sound, I prefer to be a party-pooper.

***

Succumb to the Enchanted t-shirt! Adopted dad of Minor Izzy

by hairball on Feb 14, 2008 2:47 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Zito = Opening Day Starter

I agree with this line of thinking, especially if the rotations stay intact for the home opening series against the Padres.

I think Cain deserves a break after all the hard luck last year and would rather have Zito face Peavy with the pressure of opening day. The next evening, Cain would go against Young and have a better chance of getting a win.

Not having Zito and Lowry go back-to-back also does a better job of alternating the soft tossing lefties and hard-throwing righties.

Hoping tk's recovery is faster than Raj going from first to third!

by Goofus on Feb 14, 2008 4:35 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Zito = Opening Day Starter

I want to see Cain kick Peavy's butt.

I'm sure I'm with Matt Cain on this.

by Moggeee on Feb 14, 2008 9:17 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Zito = Opening Day Starter

Under this setup, Cain gets to start the home opener. I don't see anything wrong with that.

2008 Rolaids Relief winner: Randy Messenger

by rxmeister on Feb 16, 2008 9:57 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Eh..

What's the difference between these?

Zito
Cain
Lowry
Lincecum
Correia/Sanchez

Cain
Zito
Lincecum
Lowry
Correia/Sanchez

I would have gone with #2 but I can see #1 just the same.

Coming to you from the Land of Many Beers

by WalrusMan on Feb 14, 2008 12:50 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

Re: Eh..

I understand the strategy behing alternating your SPs L,R,L,R...but man it would be fun to watch a team full of poor bastards who have to face Cain and Lincecum back-to-back days.

Here's to Kemp, Loney, LaRoche, Hu, and Kershaw not panning out.

by Woody Wins on Feb 15, 2008 6:35 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Eh..

Not me. I guess I have a soft spot in my heart for poor bastards.

Hoping tk's recovery is faster than Raj going from first to third!

by Goofus on Feb 15, 2008 4:20 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Not exactly LRLR...

Zito and Lowry and more soft tossers. Cain and Lincecum are hard throwers. I'd just as soon screw with their head seeing 95+ one day and 85- another day.

Coming to you from the Land of Many Beers

by WalrusMan on Feb 15, 2008 4:51 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Here's how not to care

Zito? Zwell. ZZZZZ.

by Moggeee on Feb 14, 2008 12:51 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

Re: Zito = Opening Day Starter

It creates a couple of lousy matchups in the first few weeks, which would be worth getting bent out of shape over if this was football and we had a winning team. Mostly it's just disappointing. It wouldn't be the first time that we've seen the team give lip service to a philosophical change and then make actual moves that are contradictory to that.

At worst it means that the internal philosophy regarding youth hasn't changed regardless of what they've said, and at best it means they made one insignificant decision that sends the wrong message but doesn't mean much.

Still, these guys should be aware of the messages they are sending. I'm disappointed, anyway, but I'm not torn up.

He is Vengeance. He is the Knight. He is Dave Righetti. PRAY TO HIM!

by howtheyscored on Feb 14, 2008 1:04 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

Re: Zito = Opening Day Starter

Your sense of perspective is nice, but it does nothing to this tarnishment of my silver raincloud.

***

Succumb to the Enchanted t-shirt! Adopted dad of Minor Izzy

by hairball on Feb 14, 2008 1:09 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Zito = Opening Day Starter

I don't see how it affects the matchups for weeks. With teams having different days off, it changes almost immediately. Zito's second start is liable to be against a number five.

2008 Rolaids Relief winner: Randy Messenger

by rxmeister on Feb 14, 2008 3:46 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Zito = Opening Day Starter

zito vs penny @ la opening day? giants lose
cain vs penny @ la opening day? giants win

isnt it obvious?

my non-baseball friends think im listening to art bell all the time when they hear "giant spaceball is on the air"

by son of riles on Feb 14, 2008 1:19 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

Re: Zito = Opening Day Starter

Yeah, but Zito would just lose game 2 anyway.

So it's not a huge difference.

Nate Schierholtz cannot play third base. Nate Schierholtz cannot play third base. Steve Kline is pretty okay. Nate Schierholtz cannot play third base.

by groug on Feb 14, 2008 1:26 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

What you get for $18 million a year

Groug gets behind the news and digs up the real story.

Management has a plan. They will strategically place Zito in the rotation where his unavoidable bad outings do the most good for the team.

So, I agree. Get that first Zito loss out of the way quickly, by sending him out there on Opening Day.

by Moggeee on Feb 14, 2008 2:25 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: What you get for $18 million a year

The Dodgers will probably pitch Lowe on Opening Day, not Penny. It's funny to see everyone all worked up about such a silly thing. Try not to jump off the Golden Gate Bridge if Zito gives up a run in the first inning.

2008 Rolaids Relief winner: Randy Messenger

by rxmeister on Feb 14, 2008 3:48 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: What you get for $18 million a year

Great. Then in Game #2 Cain loses to Penny by a score of 1 to -5.

Lon Simmons' adopted dad.

by Kitspool on Feb 14, 2008 3:51 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: What you get for $18 million a year

I thought I'd read Penny was their opening day starter.

Hoping tk's recovery is faster than Raj going from first to third!

by Goofus on Feb 14, 2008 4:36 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: What you get for $18 million a year

maybe we just shouldn't listen to/watch giants baseball in the proximity of bridges... just a thought.

Southern California: Water thieves and Dodgers fans.

by jasomack on Feb 14, 2008 5:03 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: What you get for $18 million a year

Because you'll miss the fourth inning meltdown?

NL West TempestTeapot...the AL doesn't care WHO you sign.

by victor frankenstein on Feb 14, 2008 6:43 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Good choice

Let the veteran Zito work through all the opening day hoopla and events. SF is going to need Zito to perform very well in 2008 to succeed. Why put any extra pressure or burden on Lincecum or Cain this season?

by wilriv21 on Feb 14, 2008 1:50 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

Re: Good choice

exactly.

2008 Rolaids Relief winner: Randy Messenger

by rxmeister on Feb 14, 2008 3:48 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Zito = Opening Day Starter

I understand the concept of trying to win every game and matching your #1 vs their #1 to give you the best chance at victory. But in a season of 162 games shouldnt you be playing for the most overall wins anyhow.

With that said we should make Lowry the opening day starter.

Heres the set up:

Us/Them

4 vs 1
5 vs 2
1 vs 3
2 vs 4
3 vs 5

Tell me that isnt thinking outside the box!

by Franchise55 on Feb 14, 2008 3:23 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

We're self-policing around here

All right...Take it easy, now, Franchise...Take it real easy.

Okay. Drop the lineup card...Drop the lineup card, NOW!

And get back into your cell.

by Moggeee on Feb 14, 2008 3:35 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Don't make me get the hose!

Coming to you from the Land of Many Beers

by WalrusMan on Feb 14, 2008 7:59 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Zito = Opening Day Starter

zito sucks on opening day anyway. he hasn't started earning his $126m, when did he earn the opening day start. apparently, the last 1/3 of the season.
zito is our "ace" and molina is our #4 hitter. giants '08 in a nutshell.

Southern California: Water thieves and Dodgers fans.

by jasomack on Feb 14, 2008 5:00 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

Re: Zito = Opening Day Starter

I found some of the other things more interesting in this arsticle other than the Zito/Cain story.

It says that Kline shed 40 pounds, which if true, could workout huge for the giants if he pitches well and we can unload him.

I am also curious to see what Capellan can do:
http://www.soxprospects.com/players/capellan-jose.htm
He could be a decent bullpen arm. his k/bb are super low.

I nominate Common Sense as the new GM of the San Francisco Giants.

by fanofvanlandingham on Feb 14, 2008 9:50 PM PST reply actions 0 recs