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Two days 'til...

One of the perks about being a blogger or columnist is manufactured outrage. By my count, baseball provides over 524,982 situations that make it reasonable to suggest that society is likely to crumble. The Clemens inquisition is one of those situations -- partly because no one expects the Clemens inquisition. But the Giants not really looking for a first baseman is something else that deserves a heaping spoonful of manufactured outrage. If you claim that I'm overreacting, all I have to do is point to my Blogger's Union membership card. Try not to pay attention to the fact that it's written in crayon.

That written, I also think that I'd prefer to read the same "Family Circus" panel for an hour than read 95% of columnists and bloggers who specialize in manufactured outrage. So when it comes to something as pointless as the opening day starter on a last-place team, I'll tread carefully. It really doesn't make a whit of difference to this team. If Matt Cain doesn't start opening day, he won't care. Heck, it might even motivate him more.

It's the idea that kills me. Barry Zito didn't earn the position of opening day starter. He unearned it over the first three months of last season. He was paid more money than any other pitcher in the game to perform like any other pitcher in the game. The second half he had last year made me optimistic -- really, it did -- but he was anything but an ace last season.

Handing Zito the opening day gig says:

  • Sorry, kids; tenure is more important than performance
  • We aren't paying this guy to be a #3
The philosophy trickles down to every part of the organization. Kevin Frandsen? Sorry, kid. Tenure is more important than performance, and we aren't paying Durham to sit on the bench. Fred Lewis? Sorry, kid. Tenure is more important than performance, and we aren't paying Dave Roberts to sit on the bench. Jonathan Sanchez? Tenure, performance, Russ Ortiz. It's the Decline and Fall of the Sabean Empire in two bullet points.

Bruce Bochy sat through every game last year. He saw Matt Cain pitch, and he saw Barry Zito pitch. If he makes Zito the opening day starter, it will speak volumes about where the Giants really are in the rebuilding process. Unless it doesn't, that is. It will give an indication that we shouldn't expect to see much of Fred Lewis, Nate Schierholtz or Kevin Frandsen. Unless it gives no such indication, and I'm making too much out of a meaningless decision that hasn't even been made yet. I will write this: I watched just about every Zito start last year, and thoughts of award and special recognition never crossed my mind.

Society will crumble, though. In a few years, when you're climbing over a pile of bodies to drink puddle water -- thrilled to even get that chance -- remember the 2008 opening day starter decision.

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Re: Two days 'til...
Wait, so, in the future we'll be able to drink puddle water???

Upgrade!

He is Vengeance. He is the Knight. He is Dave Righetti. PRAY TO HIM!

by howtheyscored on Feb 12, 2008 8:59 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

Re: Two days 'til...
From the outside looking in, Cain is the perfect opening-day starter. He seems to be respected by his teammates for his performance last year despite the poor offensive support. He's confident with a bit of a mean streak on the mound -- witness the jawing at the Rockies player who celebrated a home runs too much. It'd be great to start a new era with a 23-year-old ace on the mound.

If it were me, I'd go with: Cain, Barry Zito, Tim Lincecum, Noah Lowry, Kevin Correia.

by Dan from NM on Feb 12, 2008 9:01 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

Re: Two days 'til...
Another part that I couldn't work into this one: Are meaningless win-loss numbers and unadjusted ERA your favorite stats, Bochy? Fine. Then go with Lowry. Dude's been here for a while, and he had the shiny shiny last season.

by Grant on Feb 12, 2008 9:06 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

Re: Two days 'til...
Giants pitchers ranked by wins:

Lowery
Zito
Lincecum
Cain

'Nuff said.

You deserve to be struck out, when your first name's a verb.

by Cookyman on Feb 12, 2008 9:30 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Lowery?
Nattowear | comics | Durham? I hardly know 'im!

by Natto on Feb 12, 2008 9:36 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Two days 'til...
Lowery is a winning machine. He won Pebble Beach this weekend, too. It was thrilling, and I don't even like Golf. It maybe would have been more exciting if Singh hadn't played like total crap. But, whatever.
He is Vengeance. He is the Knight. He is Dave Righetti. PRAY TO HIM!

by howtheyscored on Feb 12, 2008 10:27 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Two days 'til...
And he makes great seasoning for chicken; which makes it taste just like rattle snake.

by E Ticket on Feb 12, 2008 8:17 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Bah
I'm going to drink Sabean's Kool-Aid and take him at his word for the youth movement. On the Razor & Mr. T last night in an interview, Sabean sounded much more upbeat and convincing than his normal grumbling self. He was pounding their dedication to the youth movement, and if for no other reason than needing to believe this for sanity's sake, I'm going to believe Sabean. Desperate times call for desperate measures.

by UnleashTheGore on Feb 12, 2008 9:06 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

Re: Bah
I'm holding out on drinking the Kool-Aid until it comes in puddle form.
He is Vengeance. He is the Knight. He is Dave Righetti. PRAY TO HIM!

by howtheyscored on Feb 12, 2008 9:10 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Bah
I prefer Flavor Aid.
Nattowear | comics | Durham? I hardly know 'im!

by Natto on Feb 12, 2008 9:31 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Bah
I like Lik-M-Aid, the one that comes with the flavorless candy stick. Mmm... who knew sugar could taste so bland?
I can't wait for May to come around - then I won't be teased for being a Giants fan anymore. I swear these Virginians don't know what they're talking about.

by KyrieEleison on Feb 12, 2008 2:05 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Bah
Your sanity thanks you now, but come June, it'll run screaming from your brain.
That's all I can stands, I can't stands no more!

by tobias on Feb 13, 2008 12:43 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Two days 'til...
LOUD NOISES!!!
"Candlestick made me a man." - Will Clark

by MeSoKrabby on Feb 12, 2008 9:07 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

Re: THE NORTH ATLANTIC GETS AN INCH WIDER EACH YEA

That's only because U-boats keep sinking shipments of Enzyte from Britain.

BRITAIN STANDS ALONE!

by zenbitz on Feb 12, 2008 10:54 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: THE NORTH ATLANTIC GETS AN INCH WIDER
GONDOR CALLS FOR AID AND I DRINK YOUR MILKSHAKE BECAUSE SHE'S GOT A GREAT ASS AND YOU GOT YOUR HEAD ALL THE WAY UP IT!

I'm not sure what we're doing here, but that was fun.

by Grant on Feb 12, 2008 11:56 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Two days 'til...
I was curious, myself, how serious this "youth movement" really is. On the Giants' MLB.com page surveys, they've lately asked things like, "Who should lead off this year?" and an overwhelming response from the fans was "Rajai Davis".

As well, recently the survey asked who should play 3rd, and while most said "Someone acquired in a trade," the second place vote-getter was Kevin Frandsen.

While I think Frandsen should not play 3rd, he should be HANDED second on a silver platter, I think that shows the fan base is strictly for the youth. If Sabean and Co. expect to fill seats they better play off the "hope" that youth movements provide-- despite the relatively small payoff youth movements most often have, at least initially.

But do you think the content the Giants MLB.com page contains has anything to do with how they really expect to play this team? I mean, not only the surveys, but the articles and Mailbag are all about the youth, too.

by lrs77 on Feb 12, 2008 9:48 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

Re: Two days 'til...
I agree in theory that Cain shoudl start over Zito, but the Giants would hardly be the only team to do it. I guarantee you Pedro starts over Johan for the Mets this year.

by TedWillamsbobblehead on Feb 12, 2008 10:15 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

Re: Want to make it interesting?
I'm not a betting man, but if Pedro is healthy, he'll start.

by TedWillamsbobblehead on Feb 12, 2008 10:34 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Want to make it interesting?
Johan and Pedro should rooster fight it out.
Idolizing the Nuschler Face since April 8, 1986 / GIANTSPACE returns!

by SoFa King Mike on Feb 12, 2008 11:19 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Want to make it interesting?
I had 11:13 as the first Pedro/cockfighting joke response to this post, so I lose.
Lon Simmons' adopted dad.

by Kitspool on Feb 12, 2008 11:22 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Two days 'til...
The worst part is that down the road in a few years when sportswriters who have no business voting for the HOF (but will be anyway) are debating the merit of Zito for the HOF, some of them will point to the number of opening day starts that he has had as a reason he should get in.

OR some dumb sportswriter may argue that Matt Cain only had X opening day starts and thus isn't worthy...

Bonds stands alone.

by nostocksjustbonds on Feb 12, 2008 10:58 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

Re: Two days 'til...
"Cain clearly isn't a Hall of Famer, he only has Y wins to show for his 1.30 ERA, after spending the majority of his career on 12-straight losing teams in San Francisco..."
Southern California: Water thieves and Dodgers fans.

by jasomack on Feb 12, 2008 11:43 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Two days 'til...
With Pedro Feliz hitting behind him, Barry Bonds was given all kinds of pitches to hit. Frankly, Feliz should be voted in first ballot just for making Bonds a great hitter.

by E Ticket on Feb 12, 2008 8:23 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Two days 'til...
Has Zito ever really been an ace? His pitching lines are always some variation on 6.1 IP, 6 H, 4 R, 3 ER, 3 BB, 4 K that feel like watching paint dry. Cain offers the possibility of one bad pitch being parked in the seats on the way to a scintillating 1-0 or 2-1 loss.
Lon Simmons' adopted dad.

by Kitspool on Feb 12, 2008 11:35 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

Re: Two days 'til...
Zito once had 23 Winz!!11uno
Nattowear | comics | Durham? I hardly know 'im!

by Natto on Feb 12, 2008 12:01 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Two days 'til...
I think Zito was an ace the year he won the Cy Young. Is that not good enough for you?

by GaryEdmundCarter on Feb 12, 2008 12:32 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Two days 'til...
I recall the consensus around that team was more that Hudson was the ace of the Big Three but Zito was having a great year (much like, had the term been in currency back in '67, nobody would have seriously made the claim that Mike McCormick was the ace of a Giants rotation that included Juan Marichal in his peak years and Gaylord Perry hitting his stride).
My boy ain't fat, he's just big boned. Big bat, too.

by Roger on Feb 12, 2008 1:27 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Two days 'til...
Wait, don't you guys remember?  Oakland had THREE aces.  They were co-aces, or something.

But if we are judging the pitchers, then Hudson was the best of the three.

Only 972 games until the end of Zito's contract.

by thehavenot on Feb 12, 2008 3:21 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Two days 'til...
Co-aces is an incorrect term. They were domestic mound partners.

by E Ticket on Feb 12, 2008 8:24 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

If two Aces are Co-Aces...
...then if there were three of them, they'd be co-co-aces. Or perhaps cocoa puffs. Which gets back to domestic partners, I guess.
"I think I'd trust Amy Winehouse to guard my bag of coke before I'd trust Sabes to build my offense." -Dan Szymborski, Baseball Think Factory

by Lyle on Feb 13, 2008 2:45 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: If two Aces are Co-Aces...
I believe the currently favored term is poly-aces.
My boy ain't fat, he's just big boned. Big bat, too.

by Roger on Feb 13, 2008 7:48 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: If two Aces are Co-Aces...
Actually, its polyarmory.
I got one word for you: "youneverknow"

by senorvegas on Feb 13, 2008 11:06 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Two days 'til...
The Giants aren't rebuilding. They're afraid to do the dirty work. Molina and Winn should have been traded. Vizquel should not have been re-signed, and, if he was, he didn't deserve a RAISE, and he certainly didn't deserve more money than Eckstein and twice the money that Everett got. We gave him all that and an automatically vesting option.
The few moves/non-moves they made are going to make it a lot tougher to swallow Durham, Aurilia and Roberts getting AB's, even though they need playing time to restore value, and outrageous to watch Zito go 3 innings and give up 7 runs on opening day.
Southern California: Water thieves and Dodgers fans.

by jasomack on Feb 12, 2008 11:39 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

Re: Two days 'til...
I am not one to defend the Giants Management - but the above might have been true in 04-05, but not now.

We have no ML ready position players worth a damn.  

Molina/Winn/Roberts/other old guy have zero trade value.  

I didn't want Vizquel either, but SOMEONE has to play shortstop.  Fransden?  Eugenio Velez?  

Rebuilding isn't some 110 loss punishment you have to endure to get better ("Character rebuilding?").  It requires you having some young talent to develop, or some veteran talent that is worth some young talent on the trade market.

by zenbitz on Feb 12, 2008 12:17 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Two days 'til...
I really don't understand the animosity towards Vizquel. Unless we're willing to shell out big cash for a big hitting SS, then Vizquel is our man. His defence is absolutely f'ing stellar and as long as we're gonna suck, we might as well be honored to have that man play for us another year.

by TedWillamsbobblehead on Feb 12, 2008 12:52 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Two days 'til...
Well, we coulda signed a guy (Adam Everett) who is an even better fielder than Vizquel, about the same with the bat, gets paid less, and would allow us to pick up a supplemental draft pick when someone else signed Vizquel.

Neither one is a long-term solution, of course, but it's frustrating to watch management again and again go for a short-term patch that is clearly not even a good short-term patch.

by Evan on Feb 12, 2008 1:06 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Two days 'til...
Yeah, but how much veteran savvy do we get Adam Everett compared to what we would get from Vizquel.  Also who would provide the comic relief Omar brings everyday with his fashion and wicked dance moves.

By the way how does one measure veteran savvy?  Also outside of America is their a metric conversion?  These are the things that keep me up at night.  Least of which is who the f$!k is going to start opening day.

Wow, this team sucks.

by WilliamVanLandingham on Feb 12, 2008 3:19 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Two days 'til...
how much veteran savvy do we get Adam Everett compared to what we would get from Vizquel?

I sure don't see Everett sliding into first base headfirst the way Omar can, kicking up huge clouds of veteran savvy every time he does.

That's all I can stands, I can't stands no more!

by tobias on Feb 13, 2008 12:56 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Two days 'til...
It's not towards Vizquel. The animosity is reserved for the 10m+ we're giving him to finish out his career here. The Giants are way too good at outbidding themselves. I wasn't clamoring for Everett or Eckstein, but they're 10 years younger and were signed to cheaper (I'd say better) deals.

I really don't want to pay him 5m to bat .220/.300/.299 and play moderately-above-average defense in 2010 as a senior citizen.

Southern California: Water thieves and Dodgers fans.

by jasomack on Feb 12, 2008 4:28 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Two days 'til...
The Giants offered that 16 year old kid shortstop Salcedo 2.5 million dollars. If they were still willing to do that after giving Omar 5 million, I have no problem with them. Of course it might have been better to offer the 5 million dollars to Salcedo instead of Omar, but it certainly does seem like they're trying to rebuild.
2008 Rolaids Relief winner: Randy Messenger

by rxmeister on Feb 12, 2008 6:40 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Two days 'til...
It would be a mistake, at this point, to simply cut Winn, Molina or even Roberts. They were obviously on the block this winter and didn't attract much trade interest. That could change before camp breaks. I think Sabes wants any trade that's reasonable.
As for Vizquel, I think part of keeping him may have been courting him as a future coach/manager and as an aid for more aggressive recruiting in Latin America. He's a very smart guy who could have far more post-playing career value to the Giants than Everett.

by NearestNorwich on Feb 12, 2008 7:41 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Vizquel future recruiter...
I really hope that's the case, but that smacks of long-term planning, and that doesn't sound like Giants management. But it would be great!
"I think I'd trust Amy Winehouse to guard my bag of coke before I'd trust Sabes to build my offense." -Dan Szymborski, Baseball Think Factory

by Lyle on Feb 13, 2008 2:49 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Two days 'til...
You're probably right that Molina and Winn have zero value right now. They likely had more value at the deadline/this winter, when teams had more holes. They aren't going to help the next good Giants team, unless you think we have a chance in '09 and they'll still be playing well when they're 35 and 34.

If these young guys aren't going to develop into average/above-average OF's, we need to find out NOW so we can start bringing other guys in.

I like Winn, but he's blocking Schierholtz, Lewis and Davis. By the end of '08/beginning '09, he might be blocking Bowker, as well. I know nobody wants us to lose two of our (this hurts to say) best hitters, but this isn't the year to hold on to aging, average players.

Southern California: Water thieves and Dodgers fans.

by jasomack on Feb 12, 2008 5:17 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Two days 'til...
I agree in principal, but not in magnetude.

Shuerholtz is 24... he has at least a year in AAA before he can legitimately be called blocked.  

Lewis and Davis need 400 PAs or so this year.  They don't need 700.  There's nothing wrong with having them (with Roberts) as OFs 3/4/5/platoon mates.  

They are "blocked" in the sense that they are out of options.  But they are too old to be legit prospects, and frankly, have never really crushed AAA.  I think they are out of options, so I think they start in SF.

The number of PAs Winn and Roberts vs. Lewis and Davis get in 2008 is not really going to impact the team in 2009-2011.

The big problem is the infield anyway. As in "we ain't got any"

by zenbitz on Feb 12, 2008 9:30 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Oh, genius idea commencing!
With our plethora of Centerfielders, I think we should forgo first and third base entirely.  Frandsen can play sort of between normal first and second base positions and Vizquel can play sort of between normal third and shortstop positions.  Meanwhile, the "normal" outfield of Winn, Rowand and Roberts can patrol traditional left, center and right field, while Rajai Davis and Fred Lewis can play in between the outfield and infield.  Nothing hit in the air would fall in!  

I know that some of you will hate me for revolutionizing the game of baseball, but it's so much better for the Giants this way.

Only 972 games until the end of Zito's contract.

by thehavenot on Feb 12, 2008 9:42 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Oh, genius idea commencing!
I actually like this. Softball level talent, so why not softball tactics?

So, who gets to be rover - Lewis or Davis? Or both?

I'm as tall as Mel - why can't I hit 500 home runs?

by Ott on Feb 13, 2008 11:12 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Oh, genius idea commencing!
The sad part is that - the offense is still terrible.

by zenbitz on Feb 13, 2008 12:52 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Two days 'til...
Why are we arguing about who has the poopiest diapers?

by E Ticket on Feb 12, 2008 8:26 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Two days 'til...
Well, the world's supposed to end in 2012 as it is, so I figure by the time we're really ready to compete again it'll all be over.

Shucks.

Brian Anderson: I can has spot in Fresno 'pen?

by Anticon23 on Feb 12, 2008 11:56 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

Good news, everyone!
Mayan scholars call that a misinterpretation of their calendar.
Nate Schierholtz cannot play third base. Nate Schierholtz cannot play third base. Steve Kline is pretty okay. Nate Schierholtz cannot play third base.

by groug on Feb 12, 2008 1:31 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Except . . .
The Bible Code says 2012 also.

=(

Brian Anderson: I can has spot in Fresno 'pen?

by Anticon23 on Feb 12, 2008 3:21 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Except . . .
Yeah yeah, and some dude graphed the I Ching and the graph ended in 2012, I know.

I watched a whole History Channel documentary on this.  It was pretty hilarious.

Nate Schierholtz cannot play third base. Nate Schierholtz cannot play third base. Steve Kline is pretty okay. Nate Schierholtz cannot play third base.

by groug on Feb 12, 2008 3:27 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Except . . .
That was a documentary?  I thought it was across between visual aids for a conspiracy Theorists Board while someone's did a  poor attempt to impersonate Bob Newhart as a producer.   But then what do I know?

by daveinexile on Feb 12, 2008 3:52 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Except . . .
The History Channel has to put out shows like that.  No one would watch otherwise.  My favorites are their various UFO shows and paranormal shows.
Only 972 games until the end of Zito's contract.

by thehavenot on Feb 12, 2008 4:03 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Except . . .
That sounds a lot like Sabean talking about Savvy veterans.  I am not saying the substance is identical  but the form sure is.

  I agree with you the Bigfoot & Alien adventures from The Weekly World News  are entraining as well.  Anyone seen who the Aliens are backing for president this time around?

by daveinexile on Feb 12, 2008 4:36 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Except . . .
Yes...but they phrase it as the "history of UFO theories" or something like that, which makes it legit.

by paboperfecto on Feb 13, 2008 6:03 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Cain IS the starter and 2nd base is up for grabs
Hey just FYI .. I know it is frustrating but, Cain IS the starter and 2nd base is up for grabs between KFran and Lamo-O Durham, at least that is the game plan as of yesterday with the Giants. As for Roberts, that's a joke. And Fred Lewis? What about Davis!! Now HE should be starting!
OneFlapDown ...

by GiantsLover on Feb 12, 2008 12:05 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Re: Two days 'til...
CF Davis
2B Velez
LF Lewis
RF Schierholtz
1B Ortmeier
3B Frandsen
C  Alphonszo
SS Vizquel

Call me a sadist, but this line-up actually keeps me interested.

The twist is that Winn, Rowand, Roberts, Aurilia, Durham & Molina are all solid/excellent bench players.

Defender of Noah Lowry.

by Kid Fresh on Feb 12, 2008 12:41 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Once in the season this would be fun to see.
Otherwise, put Molina and Rowand back in, and I'd be fine with things.
And Boom Goes the Dynamite

by Andy from DC on Feb 12, 2008 12:58 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Once in the season this would be fun to see.
I know those two guys are better players, but its more fun to root for guys like Rajai Davis and Eugenio Velez and the rest of the Bad News Bears long-shots

by E Ticket on Feb 12, 2008 8:30 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Two days 'til...
Please tell me you're not calling Rowand and Molina bench players. You should be ashamed.

by GaryEdmundCarter on Feb 12, 2008 5:57 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Two days 'til...
Molina's actually not very good. Not even by your standards.
He is Vengeance. He is the Knight. He is Dave Righetti. PRAY TO HIM!

by howtheyscored on Feb 12, 2008 6:25 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Two days 'til...
I know Molina isn't very good when you start taking out the army of stats, but if you watched the Giants' games last year, you might have seen a lot of clutch hits, alot of two out hits, and alot of two strike hits. I'm not disputing the stats, but let's not make it out like the guy's a terrible ballplayer.
2008 Rolaids Relief winner: Randy Messenger

by rxmeister on Feb 12, 2008 6:43 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Two days 'til...
Actually, I'm fairly high on the season Molina had last year with the bat, as a catcher specifically, even though it was one of the worst of career, and I do believe that you can even statistically track the success that he had in situational at bats as opposed to at bats that had no situation (and even the success he's had over his career the same way). And I did watch him play. And I did experience the clutch.

But that doesn't mean my hopes are high this season. Even as impressed as I was last year I think his season with the bat was only just passable. His defense has been in a sharp decline for the last few years. I don't see a reason to believe that he'll hit better this year, and I do see reason to believe why he might hit worse or hurt himself and not hit at all. And his defense isn't very good. I liked Molina 2007. I just really don't think I'll like Molina 2008. He's going to be a trainwreck sometime in the near future if he doesn't improve his conditioning, and I'm afraid to say that I'm able to see that wreck happening this year.

He is Vengeance. He is the Knight. He is Dave Righetti. PRAY TO HIM!

by howtheyscored on Feb 12, 2008 7:28 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Two days 'til...
The young guys like throwing to him. He knows the hitters, so they have confidence in the number of fingers he's flashing. Its going to be tough enough pitching on this team, the least that can be done, is have somebody behind the dish, that they pitchers feel comfortable with.

by E Ticket on Feb 12, 2008 8:32 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Two days 'til...
Having Bengie Molina as your starting C is neither going to help your team towards a championship or damage your chances much.  

The problem with Giants is that they have 4 positions like this (Molina, Vizquel, Winn, Frandsen/Durham), 3 black holes, and a plus CF (unless Rowand reverts to hitting .275 again, in which case he's firmly in the first category again)

I am a little undecided about calling LF a black hole.  Maybe it's a grey hole.  I am assuming some combination of Roberts/Lewis/Davis play there.  Actually, I think if you take Roberts/Lewis/Davis/Winn and 2 corner OF positions, you will average out to 1 terrible and 1 adequate hitter.  I am not sure which parts of the 4 will be what.  The upside is that they both (positions) might be adequate in the Molina sense, the downside is that they might both be horrid.

And that's giving credit to everyone's UPSIDE potential.   I think Ortmeier's HIGH end is that he's in the bottom 1/3rd of NL 1B with the bat.  The downside is that he's back in AAA, and Aurilia is the in the bottom 1/5th of NL 1B.

by zenbitz on Feb 13, 2008 9:54 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Two days 'til...
I take issue with the notion that Aurilia and Durham would be solid bench players.
I'm too lazy to look the other projections up, but ZiPS actually gives Alfonzo a better projection for '08 than Molina. It's probably all those doubles that Molina stretches into singles.
Southern California: Water thieves and Dodgers fans.

by jasomack on Feb 12, 2008 6:03 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

OK, somebody has to say it
Nobody expects the Clemens inquisition... because our chief weapon is surprise!

Having said that, Zito's future has a lot more hope than Durham's or Winn's.  

by achiappanza on Feb 12, 2008 12:52 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Re: Two days 'til...
Probable starting lineup on opening day (barring injuries):

LF - Roberts (35)
SS - Vizquel (41)
RF - Winn (34)
C - Molina (34)
CF - Rowand (30)
2b - Durham (36)
1b - Ortmeier (26)
3d - Aurilla or Frandsen (37,26)

I could be wrong on the ages on some of these guys, but that don't look like a youth movement to me.  At least the pitching staff is young - until they trade for Dave Weathers or Troy Percival to close.

I miss Wendell Kim's sprinting to 3rd base.

by hummbaby on Feb 12, 2008 12:53 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Can't disagree...
That being said, it would be flipping ridiculous to start Roberts. If a youth movement is to be started, you can't throw in Ortemeier as the lone under-30 and call it a youth movement. One of Davis/Lewis/Schierholtz must start in LF. There is too much potential between those three to allow Roberts to take up a starting spot.

by UnleashTheGore on Feb 12, 2008 1:10 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Can't disagree...
Ortmeier + Frandsen = youth movement!!!!!!11
You know what scares me? That Sabean will toss some AB's to Ortmeier, Davis, and Lewis, and then, when they don't pan out, throw up his hands, scream "we need proven commodities who can do the little things!!" and deal for Crede & Matsui (both Matsuis!), and extend Vizquel until he's 50.
Usually, when the Giants finally cave in and give AB's to young guys (Niekro, Linden), it doesn't end up working out. I wonder how much that entered into Sabean's mind when he started "focusing on young players."
Southern California: Water thieves and Dodgers fans.

by jasomack on Feb 12, 2008 5:33 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Can't disagree...
Lance Niekro was given the starting job in 2005, his age 26 season. Dan Ortmeier was moved to first and given signficant playing time in the second half of 2007, his age 26 season. Fred Lewis came up and received his first serious playing time last year, in his age 26 season. Kevin Frandsen will be given a serious shot at starting in 2008, his age 26 season. Todd Linden, superstar in the making actually was given his shot at starting time in his age 25 season, and then again last year in his age 27 season.

I think I have a pretty good handle on what theGiants consider "youth" to be.

My boy ain't fat, he's just big boned. Big bat, too.

by Roger on Feb 13, 2008 7:39 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Can't disagree...
Is your point that if the Giants had committed to these guys when they were 24, they'd have developed into solid major leaguers?

One of the older BP books (2002?) had this quote about the Giants:  "They have good players and young players, but the good players are not young and the young players are not good".    

Things haven't changed much, except we don't even have any good old players anymore.

by zenbitz on Feb 13, 2008 9:44 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Can't disagree...
Mostly I was just being snarky, but to the extent that i had a point, it would be that even when it comes to "developing young players" Giants management seems locked into a mindset that experience equals potential productivity. And while, yes, I think they should have let Durham go last off season and given Frandsen the job in '07, most of these cases are negative examples. There's just nothing in Lance Niekro's minor league career to suggest he'd ever be a tolerable major league starter, or really even much of a roll player. Yet suddenly at age 26 he was handed a starting job before training camp. Ortmeier's a pretty similar case. The questiom's been raised elsewhere, why go out of your way to create a starting spot for Ortmeier rather than Schierholtz, for instance. And while I absolutely think Nate can benefit from more minor league time, it seems to me that the deciding factor for the Giants' front office is Ortmeier's added experience; while to me it should have been Ortmeier's lack of productivity while gaining that experience.
My boy ain't fat, he's just big boned. Big bat, too.

by Roger on Feb 13, 2008 10:50 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Two days 'til...
The problem is that Sabean actually thinks of that lineup as a youth movement. I wouldn't be surprised to see Frandsen take the 2B job out of ST but still two guys in their 20's does not a youth movement make. To be fair Rowand just misses being in his 20's so he will be part of the youth movement for....... about 1 or 2 years.
"I'd take pleasure in gutting you boy" Oh and ignore the spelling. I do.....

by someguynamedg on Feb 14, 2008 10:34 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Two days 'til...
Let's just hope that four years from now this post isn't recycled as: "if the Giants give Zito the 5th spot in the rotation over Bumgarner/Alderson/Sosa/Pitcher X, despite Zito's league-worst 6.80 ERA last year, they'll be sending the message throughout the organization that payroll is more important than performance."
My boy ain't fat, he's just big boned. Big bat, too.

by Roger on Feb 12, 2008 1:56 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Pitcher X?
Is he by any chance related to Speed Pitcher?
"When Jackson Williams thinks of how many times Madison Bumgarner has tried to kill Tyler Walker..."

by multiphasic on Feb 12, 2008 2:10 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Pitcher X?
More importantly, can he play CF?
Rajai Davis: fast.

by Mike Benjamin Hit King on Feb 12, 2008 2:17 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Pitcher X?
Seriously, the CF jokes never get old.

by KCDrummer82 on Feb 12, 2008 3:25 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Pitcher X?
Barry Zito - The next Rick Ankiel. Except even shittier

by E Ticket on Feb 12, 2008 8:34 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Two days 'til...
Grant, it's not that your BU card is written in crayon.  It's that it's really a Costco Membership Card with the word Costco crossed out and the words Blogger's Union written in in eye-liner pencil.  
"cynical yet whimsical giants related signature"

by The Gene Hackman on Feb 12, 2008 3:26 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Re: Two days 'til...
As far as I'm concerned, it's because his BU membership card says his name is McLovin.
He is Vengeance. He is the Knight. He is Dave Righetti. PRAY TO HIM!

by howtheyscored on Feb 12, 2008 4:46 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

What are you, an Irish R&B Singer?
Brian Anderson: I can has spot in Fresno 'pen?

by Anticon23 on Feb 12, 2008 6:57 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Two days 'til...
So the Giants need a closer but they trade away the only guy who could conceivably fill the spot adequately.  They do not need a catcher but they trade away the guy who could have closed to get one.  Mark my words, we are going to regret trading away Nathan.  Not to mention the other two prospe....

Wait, my bad.  I'm at the wrong point in the decline and fall of the Sabean era.

Only 972 games until the end of Zito's contract.

by thehavenot on Feb 12, 2008 3:34 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Re: Two days 'til...
After the first sentence, I thought you were talking about Accardo.
Southern California: Water thieves and Dodgers fans.

by jasomack on Feb 12, 2008 6:08 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Two days 'til...
I'm out of work this week, and since my last job wasn't particularly exciting, I could have read all the above posts.  But I have better things to do today, so I don't know if anyone pointed out what I'm about to say...

To me, Zito being named Opening Day Starter would piss me off, especially considering Cain deserves it.  But what's going to piss me off is we'll probably sign a third baseman this offseason and have a competition for second base between Frandsen and Durham.  And Durham will probably win because Franny can play multiple positions (even if not particularly well) and Franny isn't a savvy vet.  This despite Durham batting something like .218 last season.

THAT is where my ire will be drawn from.

"He called the sh** POOP!" -- Adam Sandler

by JRPhillips on Feb 12, 2008 5:29 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Re: Two days 'til...
The 2B decision will be partly based on on about a 60 AB sample size. Frandsen could catch the flu, and Durham could put together two 3-3 showings with 2 HR's, and voila! Ray Durham is your starting second baseman.
Is there a particular free agent 3B you fear? Is it Jeff Cirillo?
Southern California: Water thieves and Dodgers fans.

by jasomack on Feb 12, 2008 6:23 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Two days 'til...
I can hear Boulderskull now:  

"Well, Ray had a good spring, dropped about 10 pounds, and is playing like he's 25. Its pretty hard to justify benching an All-Star coming off a great spring training you know."

by E Ticket on Feb 12, 2008 8:39 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Two days 'til...
I don't agree about Opening Day starter. It doesn't go to your best pitcher, it goes to the leader of the staff. It's an honorary thing. The leader of the staff is Zito. If Zito wasn't signed last year the Opening Day starter should have been Matt Morris. Zito deserves it, and Matt Cain doesn't need the extra pressure.
2008 Rolaids Relief winner: Randy Messenger

by rxmeister on Feb 12, 2008 6:46 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Two days 'til...
It's like what I've said before about managers...  You should work your lineup to put your best foot forward.  I'd think you would want to do that by having your best pitcher be the Opening Day starter.  Obviously, however, there's plenty of wiggle room for disagreement on that one.  That's just what I would have done is all.
"He called the sh** POOP!" -- Adam Sandler

by JRPhillips on Feb 15, 2008 9:56 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Two days 'til...
Good thing I'll have baseballmogul 2009 this season. I can start Frandsen at 2B, let Randy Winn play 3B (only in magic gaming land!), and have Durham come off the bench in games I'm already losing by 10. The team still won't be very good, but I'll be happy watching it.
He is Vengeance. He is the Knight. He is Dave Righetti. PRAY TO HIM!

by howtheyscored on Feb 12, 2008 6:28 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Re: Two days 'til...
Winn at third? Ha! That'll be the day!
Nattowear | comics | Durham? I hardly know 'im!

by Natto on Feb 12, 2008 7:16 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Two days 'til...
I'll believe Randy Winn at 3B the day I see Pedro Feliz catch.
Rajai Davis: fast.

by Mike Benjamin Hit King on Feb 12, 2008 9:28 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Two days 'til...
Well I am talking magic video gaming land. At least.
He is Vengeance. He is the Knight. He is Dave Righetti. PRAY TO HIM!

by howtheyscored on Feb 12, 2008 9:34 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Ray Durham: punter
Only 972 games until the end of Zito's contract.

by thehavenot on Feb 12, 2008 10:29 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Two days 'til...
I'm sure most of you heard, but in case you missed it Bochy said on KNBR just now that he hadn't decided yet but was leaning toward putting Zito between Cain and Lincecum and go R,L,R,L(lowry),R(correia).  I'm pleased simply because it is a break in the trend for the franchise.  But I guess we have to hope more than ever that Correia beats out Sanchez for the 5th spot, otherwise it makes it that much easier for Sabean to step in and use L,R,L,R,L to justify Zito as the opening day guy.

by sam23 on Feb 12, 2008 6:47 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Re: Two days 'til...
R-L-R-L-R.  R-R-R-L-L.  L-R-R-L-R.  Underhand. Kickball-slow and bouncy or fast and rolly. Does any of it make a bit of difference Bruce?

Already Mt. Rushmore Noggin is droning on about the irrelevant minutiae that keeps us biting our nails in anticipation

by E Ticket on Feb 12, 2008 8:44 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Two days 'til...
i agree, i just hope they come up with some sort of righty-lefty equation that has matty or timmy starting on opening day....hey why not both?  we'll have matt pitch the top and tim pitch the bottom of the inning.  every 2 strikeouts by timmy=1 run?

by sam23 on Feb 12, 2008 9:05 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Two days 'til...
Which in the future shall be referred to as "The Sam23 Rule"  Only the Giants will be allowed to invoke it.

by E Ticket on Feb 12, 2008 9:58 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Two days 'til...
But what I really want to know is, Who starts the third game of spring training on March 1? 'Cause I'm  dragging my family with me to Scottsdale to catch the game that day.

by Dan from NM on Feb 12, 2008 9:41 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Re: Two days 'til...
I have no idea why..but that is pretty funny.

by E Ticket on Feb 12, 2008 9:59 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Two days 'til...
It's because we're all reading about and discussing the fate of the world and Giants' baseball as we know it, and this guy is just concerned about himself.  Sheesh.

by paboperfecto on Feb 13, 2008 6:09 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Scott Williamson
Coming to you from the Land of Many Beers

by WalrusMan on Feb 13, 2008 8:44 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

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