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Around SBN: Sean Keeley's Week 12 College Football Buffet

HOF

by Grant on Jan 8, 2008 12:08 PM PST in News Comment 95 comments

Former Giant Goose Gossage was elected to the Hall of Fame today. He joins Giants greats like Steve Carlton, Duke Snider, and Warren Spahn.

If Gossage didn't hit the cockpit canopy after ejecting during a mock Naval dogfight with George Gervin, he'd still be alive today, so this must be extra sweet for his family.

Keeping in mind that I'm more of a "big Hall"-guy than one who thinks only the greatest of the great should get in, here's my top-10 list of eligible players who should be in the Hall:

Ron Santo
Mark McGwire
Tim Raines
Bert Blyleven
Bobby Grich
Alan Trammell
Lou Whitaker
Ted Simmons
Jack Morris
Jim Kaat

I spent about five minutes making this exact list, but the names have all been there in some inexact order for a while. My crazy theory is that if Santo had started his career at the age of 25 and gone until he was 39, he would have been in decades ago. McGwire is getting jobbed because of Claude Rains-inspired hilarity. Tim Raines is getting jobbed because of ignorance and Rickey Henderson. Just because the Beatles were the Beatles doesn't mean the Kinks weren't a legendary band, dammit.

Those are the only three that I'm really passionate about, but a case can be made for all of the ten. Since the HOF is an independent organization from MLB, I'd also put Pete Rose and Shoeless Joe Jackson in.

Your HOF-picks, if you would....

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Comments

Re: HOF

Jack Morris
Andre Dawson
Mark McGwire
Jim Rice
Ron Santo

by BuffyLaCoss on Jan 8, 2008 12:19 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

Re: HOF

I hope Morris as #1 is a joke, especially since you don't have Blyleven on you list. Morris is not HOF worthy.

by One Flap Down on Jan 8, 2008 1:32 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: HOF

Dude, remember that game 7?!?!!!? GAME 7!!!

No seriously, Morris is garbage, so are Rice and Dawson (garbage for the Hall that is).

Adoptive father of David Quinowski: Fuck it, dude, let's go bowling

by marcello on Jan 8, 2008 2:07 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: HOF

Just wondering if either of you two actually got a chance to see Morris in action during his time.

Rockies juggernaut rolls o...ver , dead. NL West TempestTeapot CASE IN POINT!

by victor frankenstein on Jan 8, 2008 3:06 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: HOF

Not sure what seeing a player has to do with them being HOF worthy, but not often aside from the Game 7. Morris has one unforgettable performance on the games biggest stage, this does not merit a HOF induction. Three facts stolen from FireJoeMorgan.com:

-Morris never finished in the top-4 in ERA.
-Never had an ERA under 3.
-Never had a WHIP less than 1.16.

By all accounts, Morris was a very good pitcher. HOFers should be dominant, not very good.

by One Flap Down on Jan 8, 2008 3:20 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: HOF

Further on the ERA thing:

Careera ERA+: 105

Now, ERA can be misleading, but this is over 3800 innings, I'd say it's an accurate description of his skill.

Adoptive father of David Quinowski: Fuck it, dude, let's go bowling

by marcello on Jan 8, 2008 4:12 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: HOF

You're just using facts and numbers to throw a cloud of certainty over the situation.

Rockies juggernaut rolls o...ver , dead. NL West TempestTeapot CASE IN POINT!

by victor frankenstein on Jan 8, 2008 4:33 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: HOF

Haha, nicely put. Perhaps I missed the sarcasm in your earlier post?

Adoptive father of David Quinowski: Fuck it, dude, let's go bowling

by marcello on Jan 8, 2008 5:42 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: HOF

I saw Jerome Williams pitch great and win back to back games against the A's a few years back.

Conclusion: Jerome Williams is Hall of Famer.

Bonds stands alone.

by nostocksjustbonds on Jan 9, 2008 1:18 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: HOF

My list is yours, down to Simmons. I guess if Carter and Fisk are in Simmons goes in, too.

No on Katt, Morris. Rice... eh, my standards for OFs are pretty high.

by zenbitz on Jan 8, 2008 12:24 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

Re: HOF

Here is this year's actual HOF balloting. In case anyone is feeling unqualified to decide who belongs in the HOF, keep in mind that one of the writers who actually get to vote in the real Hall election decided that Shawon Dunston was a deserving candidate.

Tim Raines should be in. I think he might be after voters get over their first-ballot-itis.

All your signature are belong to us.

by EliminateMe on Jan 8, 2008 12:25 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

Re: HOF

Lee Smith. He basically pioneered the closer role, and I'd count that as a significant enough role in the history of the game to get him into the HOF. Plus he was a damn good closer, too.

Democracy is lovely but baseball is more mature. BVCE supports Manny Burriss and SF Dugout.

by BaronVonCurrentEvents on Jan 8, 2008 12:37 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

Re: HOF

Perhaps my knowledge of baseball history is a little askew, but I do not remember this being the case. If we are talking pioneer of the closer role aren't we talking about Gossage and Sutter?

Hmm, maybe he was the bridge from Gossage and Sutter to the modern day closer?

Only 972 games until the end of Zito's contract.

by thehavenot on Jan 9, 2008 6:09 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: HOF

Smith is clearer in my mind because I remember him more than I do Gossage, as players. You are right, and saying Smith is the link between Gossage and Sutter is more accurate.

Plus Hoffman just broke Smith's saves record last year and I think Hoffman will get HOF consideration when his turn comes up. So maybe now that Gossage and Sutter are in, Smith will get more consideration.

Democracy is lovely but baseball is more mature. BVCE supports Manny Burriss and SF Dugout.

by BaronVonCurrentEvents on Jan 9, 2008 9:54 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: HOF

McGwire (I think more the half the players from the 90's used roids. So, how can this be a reason not to include anyone?), Rose (as a player only, his lifetime ban as as a non player should still stand for his gambling as a manager), Blyeven (I just can't understand why he wasn't elected on the first ballot), an no one else. The rest are just that "the rest" and they belong in the Hall of Very Good but not the Hall of Fame.

by giantsrainman on Jan 8, 2008 12:48 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

Re: HOF

Ron Santo, Tim Raines, Bert Blyleven and Alan Trammell.

by Lincecum Cain Then Pray For Rain on Jan 8, 2008 12:56 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

Re: HOF

Those four plus Darrell Evans and Lou Whitacker

by Kent on Jan 8, 2008 7:03 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: HOF

If Evans goes in, Cey has to as well. And we don't want that.

by zenbitz on Jan 8, 2008 7:22 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: HOF

Oh, I think that Evans was better for longer than Cey. But yes, you're correct, no Dodgers. (Growing up, I loathed Cey and Garvey and Lopes and LaFatta and didn't even know why...boy was I spot on with that one.)

by Kent on Jan 8, 2008 9:49 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: HOF

I think Cey's peak was a little better, but it's pretty close. Career OPS+ 121 vs 119., but Evans played longer and had a better RC/g

by zenbitz on Jan 8, 2008 10:26 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: HOF

I'm a "small hall" guy.

I wanted Gossage and now support just Dawson and Raines, although I could be talked into Smith.

*Obama takes Iowa...on to New Hampshire!*

by Goofus on Jan 8, 2008 12:57 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

Same here

I'm so small hall I want about 25% of the inductions reversed. Along those lines I'm also a "dominant if short career" guy, unlike a lot of you "long career huge numbers" weirdos......so for example the Palmieros of the world do nothing for me.

So Goose was a no-brainer in my opinion, and the only other one of those is Raines. I'm also big on Dale Murphy (2 MVPs) and Blyleven (inconceivable that he's not in).

McGwire is a really tough call, when he started juicing is completely significant.....did he start in 1988 and transform what would have been a Kingman-like career? Personally I don't think so, and he basically gets my vote.

by Stoned Slacker on Jan 8, 2008 1:12 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: HOF

I think Rice belongs. He had a great decade or so from '75-'86, and a great decade was good enough to get Kirby Puckett (full disclosure: probably my favorite baseball player ever, irrational though that might be) into the Hall. He was as feared a batter during a previous era as Bonds was during the one just past.

Also, I'd like a sip of whatever the two voters who voted for Travis Fryman were drinking.

Lon Simmons' adopted dad.

by Kitspool on Jan 8, 2008 12:59 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

Re: HOF

A column by Jim Baker the other day opened my eyes on this "feared" business:

As Vegas Watch points out, he was not among the leaders in intentional walks received during the course of his career. In fact, he had about half of those received by Mike Schmidt, George Brett, and Ted Simmons, and less than Leon Durham in spite of 4,000 more PA. More telling, though, is the dichotomy between his home and road IBB: 50 to 27, respectively. The managers of Rice's day might not have come right out and said it, and they might not have even consciously thought it, but instinctively they understood that outside of Boston they were not facing one of the great offensive bogeymen of the day. This intentional walk split certainly suggests that explanation, anyway, given that Schmidt and Brett's home/road ratios were much more even.

Rice and Trammell make an interesting comparison. They were more or less contemporaries, played in the same league, had about the same number of at-bats (Rice in 200 fewer games), and had exactly the same career OBP.

The differences between them:

Rice hit about 14 home runs per season more than Trammell.
Rice had one great high-profile season, so he won an MVP.
Rice played in the best hitter's park in baseball, Trammell in a pitcher's park.
Trammell was a gold-glove shortstop, Rice a mediocre-at-best left fielder.

To me, 3 & 4 clearly trump 1 & 2, but the voters don't seem to think so.

by Evan on Jan 8, 2008 1:59 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: HOF

Even with the difference in parks, 14 homers per season is a lot.

Steve Kline: How okay is he, really? I would say he is pretty okay.

by groug on Jan 8, 2008 2:06 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: HOF

Rice was a great hitter, who's period of great hitting was relatively short (I'd say a decade stretches it by at least two if not three years) and his last several years were just ugly ("world's slowest singles hitter", we used to call him Boston in the mid-80s, or sometimes, "the human double play"). But if you add to that the fact that he's on a short-list for worst and most disinterested fielders of all time, and that getting him from 2nd to 3rd on a double was actually a bit of a chore, I'd say Trammell was the more productive player overall on his career. Rice is a near miss for me. Trammell's a just-in.

My boy ain't fat, he's just big boned. Big bat, too.

by Roger on Jan 8, 2008 2:14 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: HOF

A lot of the arguments for Rice are well articulated here. The guy arguing for Rice's inclusion notes he was first in outfield assists from '75-'86 (yeah, it's a very short left at Fenway, but still) and also fourth in triples during that time (an argument against him being a plodder). I think his anti-media reputation and bad numbers the last few years of his career really worked against him, which is too bad.

Lon Simmons' adopted dad.

by Kitspool on Jan 8, 2008 2:29 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: HOF

Manny led the league in outfield assists recently.

Adoptive father of David Quinowski: Fuck it, dude, let's go bowling

by marcello on Jan 8, 2008 2:34 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: HOF

The human double play -- that's a good point. Rice hit into more than twice as many as Trammell over their careers!

Looking at advanced stats that take outmaking into account (like RC/27), Rice created 12-15 runs per season more than Trammell. I don't know exactly how to value the defense of a good shortstop vs. a bad left fielder, but it's go to be more than 12-15 runs.

I'll also note that Trammell got called up early (age 19) and played a long time (till he was 38). He was pretty terrible during the first two years and last two years he played. If you trim off those seasons to make the comparison to Rice more exact, Trammell's numbers improve a bit.

by Evan on Jan 8, 2008 2:42 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: HOF

"Rice played in the best hitter's park in baseball, Trammell in a pitcher's park."

You can't make a blanket statement like that about Fenway, or any park for that matter. I saw many games at Fenway in the '80s while going to school in Boston. Fenway actually hurt Rice as a hitter. Rice was a line drive hitter. I saw many balls hit off the monster by Rice that would have been HRs or extra-base hits in other parks that were only singles in Fenway.

If Dave Winfield is in then Rice should be too. Compare Winfield's first 16 seasons with Rice's 16 season career. They are very similar with Rice having slightly better numbers. The only difference between the 2 are the 7 additional seasons by Winfield where he put up very mediocre numbers that were HOF worthy only in that they padded the totals.

by marklar on Jan 9, 2008 8:45 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: HOF

Fenway actually hurt Rice as a hitter.

You know that they keep records about things like this, right?Career, Rice hit .320/.374/.546 at home, .277/.330/.459 on the road. Since Fenway was hurting him all that time, he must have really liked mom's home cooking or something.

I don't like the "If X is in then Y should be too" approach, but Rice was nowhere near the player Winfield was. Winfield was a multiple gold-glove winner and superb baserunner. Their hitting stats are very similar, even though Winfield played in a much tougher environment.

by Evan on Jan 9, 2008 9:14 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: HOF

Okay, I'll give you that one. Most players hit better at home, but that is a fairly wide split.

But if Yankee Stadium is the "much tougher environment" you refer to, it is interesting to note that Winfield didn't hit very well there. You remember Steinbrenner's "Mister May" remark of course.

At Yankee Stadium:
Winfield - .286 BA, .834 OPS
Rice - .336 BA, 1.047 OPS

In the 2 stadiums where they played the majority of their games, Rice out hit Winfield in both.

by marklar on Jan 9, 2008 9:48 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: HOF

Actually, you're both wrong. Sort of.

How Rice hit in Fenway is irrelevant. What matters is how EVERYONE hits in Fenway. What matters is the value of runs (and components, hits, walks, outs, etc.) under the conditions Rice did what he did.

So, if Rice had the same stats, but with home and road reversed, he would still have (roughly) the same VALUE summed. That's probably not clear but without real numbers:

Real Rice: Worth say X runs at home and Y runs on the road (X might be equal to Y, or it might be higher or lower.

Bizarro (white?) Rice: Worth Y runs at home and X on the road.

Now - since Fenway plays as a hitters park, Xhome has LESS value than Xroad, but Yhome has more value than Yroad, so X+Y is still roughly the same.

Since his career's over - you are not trying to predict what he WOULD DO but rather gauge the value of what he did do.

This is not to say that you don't have to correct for his park - you do - but it doesn't really matter how he hit where - just that you dink him OVERALL by 5% or whatever for playing half his games in a hitters park.

Alternatively, you can dink his HOME stats 10% (this, like the 5% is made up, I don't know Fenway's actual park factors in the 80s), and sum them with his road stats unmodified.

Luckily you don't have to do either - just use OPS+.

by zenbitz on Jan 9, 2008 9:50 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: HOF

Thanks. I'm not really much of a numbers guy, but this was illustrative. I have always thought that Fenway was overrated as a hitters park. There is no doubt that it favors hitter's over pitchers, but the type of hitter is a big factor. Left-handed, line-drive, pull hitters will not have good power numbers there. Right-handed fly-ball hitters will do better than right-handed line-drive hitters, and so on. McGwire hitting in Fenway would have been like Bonds hitting in Yankee Stadium; they would each have about 800 HRs if they had.

by marklar on Jan 9, 2008 10:08 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: HOF

What you're saying is Fenway is not a great home run park. Which is true.

But it's probably the greatest doubles park ever, and since there's usually more doubles than home runs, more than makes up for the difference.

Left handed line drive pull hitters will get plenty of doubles in the corner, and also some cheap home runs that just curl around the Pesky Pole. You see those all the time.

by Bitter Fan on Jan 10, 2008 11:42 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: HOF

I have no stats to back this up, except that I attended 20-30 games a year at Fenway and watched pretty much all the rest on TV during my years in Boston. And I would disagree with your statement about HRs around Pesky's pole. They actually are quite rare because the ball needs to be pulled so severely to hit the narrow window between foul ball and fly-out. I forget the exact number, but the HRs that Johnny Pesky curled around the pole is really quite low. They named it after him only because he just did it more than anyone else.

You're right about the doubles though. Point taken. Although there aren't that many down the 3b line, or to left for that matter, unless you've got some speed in the batter's box.

by marklar on Jan 10, 2008 2:36 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Also:

This article made me laugh.

Lon Simmons' adopted dad.

by Kitspool on Jan 8, 2008 1:02 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

Re: HOF

How'd you manage to go 10 deep and not get to Dawson, Grant. Hell, I'm a small hall guy and think he the Hawk should be in. Oh, mcGwire, Raines, and Blyleven, too, no doubt.

My boy ain't fat, he's just big boned. Big bat, too.

by Roger on Jan 8, 2008 1:04 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

Re: HOF

Well, Dawson did have a .323 OBP.

Adoptive father of David Quinowski: Fuck it, dude, let's go bowling

by marcello on Jan 8, 2008 2:31 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: HOF

That's a big point, but that seems worse looking through our 2000s-tinted glasses. It'd be like a .340 OBP today -- not good, but not awful. Hawk gets a lot of credit for playing a mean center field for the first decade of his career.

He'd make it if mine were a Spinal Tap list. I also tend to overemphasize longevity and durability for pitchers.

by Grant on Jan 8, 2008 3:02 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: HOF

This is a fair point, he was a bit above league average in OBP during his time.

Adoptive father of David Quinowski: Fuck it, dude, let's go bowling

by marcello on Jan 8, 2008 3:07 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: HOF

He really was a tremendous CF with an excellent arm and gets some points for his baserunning as well, I think. Sadly most of that was in the media wasteland of Montreal. It's my opinion that he was the NL's best OF in the era between Mays and Bonds, and that should mean something.

My boy ain't fat, he's just big boned. Big bat, too.

by Roger on Jan 8, 2008 3:53 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Santo?

I look at Santo's numbers and I see a remarkably similar career to Matt Williams. Of course Santo played in the 60s and a real pitchers' era, but I don't see how this gets him HOF.

by Stoned Slacker on Jan 8, 2008 1:14 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

Re: Santo?

You pretty much captured the argument for Santo.

He is very impressive only when you look at the other third basemen in the hall (not too many), and when you compare his numbers to that of his peers. Santo put up a career OPS 93 points higher than the league OPS. Matt Williams only exceeded the league's OPS by 55 points.

I think it's enough for Santo to get in, but I understand the initial skepticism.

by rotorueter on Jan 8, 2008 2:13 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Santo?

Ron Santo walked an awful lot more than Matt Williams. Santo's OBP is 45 points higher than Williams despite playing in the best era for pitchers since the First World War.

OPS+ isn't perfect, but Santo is at 125 and Williams is at 112, which is a pretty big difference considering both guys were very good defensive third basemen and Santo's career is about 400 games longer.

Furthermore, Matty was a pretty good third baseman. He's not a Hall of Famer, but if he could have stayed healthy past 30, he wouldn't have been far off being a Hall of Famer, even with the crappy OBP. So Santo being significantly better makes him one of the best half-dozen third basemen ever.

by Bitter Fan on Jan 9, 2008 6:49 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: HOF

Mark Mcgwire, Bert Blyleven, Ron Santo, Tim Raines, and possibly Alan Trammell.

by rotorueter on Jan 8, 2008 1:29 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

Not quite sure where to put this

Jeffrey Leonard, has been named as the Manager of the Reno Silver Sox. This team is in the Independent Golden Baseball League.

by cud1 on Jan 8, 2008 1:57 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

Bert Blyleven ...and

Santo
The Hawk
Big Mac
Lee Smith

Not in that order.

I prefer each HOF class to be worthy of being in the HOF. We can have a few years where nobody gets in and I'd be just fine with that. If Jack Morris gets in, they might as well let Matt Morris in too.

Derin McMains had five fingers, but he only used three.

by oooreebay on Jan 8, 2008 2:07 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

Re: HOF

I liked Raines, Blyleven, McGwire, Trammell and Gossage (and maybe Dawson) on this ballot. There are a lot of players in the past who didn't make it in who I think should be in, but it'd take a long time to really think about that list!

Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.

by jponry on Jan 8, 2008 2:10 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

Re: HOF

About time with Gossage! Sometimes I wonder if half the H.O.F. voters view fire as too fire an item and refuse to cook or heat with it. Though I do count myself as only the biggest, baddest, bestest get in kind of guy.

Lee Smith. The Baron said it best.

I would not quibble of Blyeven at all.

Santo. Look at Santo's contemporizes in both leagues. If it seems hard replacing Pedro this year just think if you were not one of the lucky 5 clubs in the 60's with a top tier third base man. If a person wants to quibble about his numbers then weight the fact for 17 years he has been doing Cubs games and is keenly identified with that franchise. Considering it is a founding N.L. franchise that is an accomplishment of note. Just bronze a toupee while they are at it please.

Raines I only quibble with a bit. Outfielders tend to real hard for me settle were the line should be exactly.

Big Mac does not make it to me. Rice was more feared and stood out more from his contemporizes and if he is not making it I can't justify Big Mac.

by daveinexile on Jan 8, 2008 2:15 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

Re: HOF

Wow, of all the "Rice was feared" arguments I've seen, this one takes the cake. Rice more feared than McGwire? Is that why McGwire had nearly twice as many intentional walks as Rice? Heck, in 98 and 99 alone, McGwire had 49. Compare that to Rice, who had 77 for his career.

Only 972 games until the end of Zito's contract.

by thehavenot on Jan 9, 2008 7:08 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: HOF

I don't think it's fair to compare something like IBB for players of different eras. The use of the IBB seems to vary over time. McGwire's IBB rate of about 40/AB is 50% better than Reggie Jackson's 60/AB.

IBB isn't all that useful a stat anyway when, for the most part, it has so much to do with whomever is batting in front of, and behind the player. Barry Bonds would not have had the IBB numbers he did if he had had someone with better OBP in front of him.

Cal Ripken and Robin Yount both had IBB rates worse than Rice's.

To show how misleading it can be McCovey's IBB rate was almost double that of Mays: 32/AB vs 57/AB.

by marklar on Jan 10, 2008 12:20 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: HOF

Not sure how McCovey and Mays help your argument. Despite the fact that Mays was one of the probably 3 greatest players ever, McCovey certainly was (in his heyday) much more feared. Between about 67 and 69 there were several games where in late innings Mays either stopped at first on balls hit into the gap or didn't advance to 2nd on WP/PB to prevent the other team from walking McCovey. And a lot of pitchers admitted after their careers to actually being physically frightened and/or intimidated by McCovey at the plate. He was feared for a few years like few (non-Bonds division) have been.

My boy ain't fat, he's just big boned. Big bat, too.

by Roger on Jan 10, 2008 12:53 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: HOF

My point was, that IBBs are not a good yardstick to say someone is better than another. Mays is the best all around player ever (IMO), and that he has a worse IBB rate proves nothing.

In fact, what you say about Mays stopping or staying at 1st supports that point. McCovey would have had even more IBBs if Mays had played it differently. Maybe Jim Rice had someone hitting in front of him doing the same thing. We do know that he had some potent hitters behind him. The fact that McCovey was intentionaly walked almost twice as often as Mays proves nothing about their relative abilities, and to pull out a single stat like IBB for one player can be misleading.

In interviews, pitchers that faced Rice, called him fearful. I will trust them more than I will an isolated stat.

by marklar on Jan 10, 2008 1:51 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: HOF

I agree that IBB's are not the best way to judge who is a better player. The person I disagreed with, however, said that Rice was more feared than McGwire. IBB's are a decent piece of evidence in the "who was feared by pitchers" conversation. You do not intentionally walk a guy a lot unless you fear him. Maybe eras have some significance in the conversation but I wouldn't say that it means a whole lot. I'm sure there were different attitudes toward IBB's in the seventies and eighties. But how much did that effect? Was it enough to account for the fact that McGwire had almost twice as many IBB's as Rice?

IBB's aren't conclusive in this conversation. But they are more so than using "In interviews, pitchers that faced Rice, called him fearful." Okay, but how fearful? Moreso than McGwire? You can't tell that using your criteria.

Besides that, this whole conversation is basically meaningless. Being feared doesn't really make someone hall-of-fame worthy. I'm sure Mitch Williams was feared by hitters.

Only 972 games until the end of Zito's contract.

by thehavenot on Jan 10, 2008 6:58 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: HOF

Yeah, that's funny. Mitch Williams would have instilled great fear in hitters I'm sure. But a hitter fearing a pitcher is a whole lot different than the fear a pitcher would feel facing McGwire, Rice or any other dangerous hitter.

I would agree whole-heartedly with you, that to say Rice was more feared than McGwire is ridiculuous. I think they were both feared and I wasn't the one that said that.

But to simply say that you do not intentionally walk a guy a lot unless you fear him is too one-dimensional. I remember the most exciting Bonds ABs in the past couple years were when someone actually got on base in front of him and they had to pitch to him. Bonds' high IBB totals were dependent on the players hitting in front him not getting on base much. I have to think that if Rice was surrounded by a weenie line-up, his IBB totals would have been much better.

Some have been using Rice's low IBB totals as reason he does not belong in the HOF. I just don't buy that you can base an opinion like that on one isolated stat that is so dependent on the players he played with.

by marklar on Jan 10, 2008 7:49 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: HOF

Jack Morris may be the greatest big game pitcher of our lifetime!

by BuffyLaCoss on Jan 8, 2008 2:25 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

Re: HOF

Nah.

Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.

by jponry on Jan 8, 2008 2:33 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Yah.

He was a badass. His performance in his third start of the '91 Series was , um , Schillingesque (ducks thrown Acme anvil)

"At the peak of his game, Morris' ferocious competitive nature added an extra edge to his fastball, slider, and excellent split-finger, making quick and easy work of opposing batters. But occasional outbursts and displays of tension that stemmed from his aggressive mentality often caused a rift between him and some sportswriters. On one less than couth instance, a female reporter attempted to interview him in the Detroit clubhouse and he replied, "I don't talk to women when I'm naked unless they're on top of me or I'm on top of them."

Rockies juggernaut rolls o...ver , dead. NL West TempestTeapot CASE IN POINT!

by victor frankenstein on Jan 8, 2008 2:47 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Yah.

He certainly had some very good big game starts, but his overall postseason numbers (not to mention his career regular season numbers) just don't add up (especially when you compare him to Bert Blyleven, for one, or most of his top 1980s contemporaries).

Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.

by jponry on Jan 8, 2008 2:54 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Yah.

My rebuttal: Nolan Ryan's "postseason numbers."

OK , OK , I confess.
Morris was my '91 AL mancrush.
NL? AverGlavoltz.

Rockies juggernaut rolls o...ver , dead. NL West TempestTeapot CASE IN POINT!

by victor frankenstein on Jan 8, 2008 3:10 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: HOF

Morris postseason 6-1, 3.80 ERA

This Guy: 6-0, 1.73 ERA

Just saying...

by chefasaurus on Jan 8, 2008 4:21 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: HOF

This guy could certainly be putting together a HOF career. Time will tell.

My boy ain't fat, he's just big boned. Big bat, too.

by Roger on Jan 8, 2008 6:47 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: HOF

If nothing else, he can have a mediocre career and be remembered for his post season heroics

by chefasaurus on Jan 9, 2008 11:58 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: HOF

Will Clark

"Candlestick made me a man." - Will Clark

by MeSoKrabby on Jan 8, 2008 5:30 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

Re: HOF

In '89, the talk about the MVP was between Mitchell("a very good player having an MVP season) and Clark (a Hall of Famer having a typical season). Alas, his last great year.

by drysdalecousin on Jan 8, 2008 7:06 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: HOF

Clark is actually closer than I thought.

by zenbitz on Jan 8, 2008 7:20 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: HOF

http://www.beyondtheboxscore.com/story/2007/2/7/1248/12179

I think Clark should at least be -considered- with some of these other players.... wish he woulda played a couple more years in a platoon role... with the Giants.

Southern California: Water thieves and Dodgers fans.

by jasomack on Jan 8, 2008 11:48 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: HOF

Listen to Clark's interview with Eric Byrnes on KNBR's web page when Byrnesie was filling in for Razor and Mr. T. Clark wanted to resign with the Giants, but they never offered him a contract or only a two year contract. He said he would have taken a discount. I question Macgowan's group more and more with each passing day.

"Candlestick made me a man." - Will Clark

by MeSoKrabby on Jan 9, 2008 9:18 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: HOF

I also feel strongly that Rose should be in, but he's such a jerky weirdo that I don't really care anymore

by moonman on Jan 8, 2008 5:41 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

Re: HOF

I think Rose shold go in posthumously[sp?]

"Candlestick made me a man." - Will Clark

by MeSoKrabby on Jan 8, 2008 5:55 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: HOF

He probably has money on this happening, but is too stupid to realize he'll have to be dead to collect.

Barack Obama: 1-1

by Goofus on Jan 9, 2008 1:18 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: HOF

I'm one of those "did he seem like a hof when i watched him play" people. Until Mattingly gets in I wouldn't consider any of these guys.

But if you give me Mattingly I'd be up for considering Trammell and Dale Murphy.

by keithr on Jan 8, 2008 6:34 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

Re: HOF

No props on the strained Top Gun allusion? Tough crowd. Wholly justified in their eye-rolling...but tough.

by Grant on Jan 8, 2008 6:41 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

Re: HOF

I see where I went wrong. I needed to toss in a James Garner reference. My bad.

by Grant on Jan 8, 2008 6:42 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: HOF

Who should be admitted into the baseball Hall of Fame:

"No one can argue what the did on the field" division:

Shoeless Joe Jackson
Pete Rose
Mark McGwire
Tim Raines

"Marginal, but would get my vote" division:

Andre Dawson
Bert Blyleven
Lee Smith
Jim Rice

Right on the bubble, but not in:

Dale Murphy
Ron Santo
Jack Morris

Longer Shots:
Alan Trammell
Lou Whitaker
Jim Kaat

Defender of Noah Lowry.

by Kid Fresh on Jan 8, 2008 7:10 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

Re: HOF

I'm small hall. Now that Gossage is in, Blyleven is the strongest candidate,(not counting Rose of course) My criteria: very long careers and very good (cf. Blyleven and perhaps down the road, Omar), lengthy careers and outstanding (Dawson?), on the short side but dominant (Pedro Martinez), and the once in a lifetime shooting star (Koufax).

by NearestNorwich on Jan 8, 2008 8:25 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

Re: HOF

I don't know how you can call Pedro "on the short side but dominant" and Koufax a "once in a lifetime shooting star" when Pedro from 1997-2003 had a lower ERA than Koufax did from 1962-1966, even though Koufax pitched against 8 hitters and a pitcher in fricken Dodger Stadium in the 1960s. Not adjusted ERA - raw, pure ERA.

What Pedro did was one of the great feats of pitching in history, easily the equal of what Koufax did and up there with freak stuff like Ed Walsh's 40 wins and 464 innings in a single season, Bob Gibson's 1.12 ERA, etc.

by Bitter Fan on Jan 9, 2008 7:00 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: HOF

Pedro from 1997-2003 had a lower ERA than Koufax did from 1962-1966

No. Unless bb-ref is lying to me, Koufax's ERA over that period was about a quarter-run better than Pedro's.

It's also worth noting that Koufax pitched more innings in his five seasons than Pedro pitched in his seven.

by Evan on Jan 9, 2008 7:51 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: HOF

I think he either mistyped 1962 for 1960, or exaggerated. Not sure it's fair to cherry pick top 7 years vs. top 5. either.

It not really relevant - compare ERA+ and Martinez blows Koufax away. Koufax' best ERA+ was 187. Pedro's top 6 years are better than that.

True, he did do it in fewer innings. But you kind of have to correct for average IP in their respective time periods.

None of martinez's contemporaries pitch 300 innings a season. None of them. Pitching all those innings probably drastically shortened Koufax' career.

by zenbitz on Jan 10, 2008 9:54 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: HOF

Someone else can check the CG's because at the end of the day I'm not a stat geek, but my strong impression as a fan during those years was that when we faced Koufax we'd have to deal with him for 8 innings if not the complete game (so our only hope was a shutout from Marichal), whereas you could frequently hope to get someone other than Pedro to deal with at the end of the game. It was also my impression that Koufax's peak years were more concentrated than Pedro's but that could be wrong. This was no slam of Pedro -- I don't use the term dominant lightly.

by NearestNorwich on Jan 9, 2008 6:50 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: HOF

Pedro's peak years one after the other, he just had a short season in '01 because of his shoulder.

by Bitter Fan on Jan 10, 2008 11:45 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: HOF

Ten years into their careers, I would have bet the house that Dale Murphy and Steve Garvey would be lead pipe locks for the HOF. Was it because they just destroyed the Giants? Murphy absolutely slowed down late and Garvey was revered enough to have his number retired by SD. (Spare me.) Gossage was TOUGH for most of his early to mid career but then he sort of lived off his rep for years. No rhyme or reason.

by drysdalecousin on Jan 8, 2008 8:50 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

Re: HOF

Still have a shot, and I'd vote 'em in, no doubt. It's a traveshamockery that so many supposedly intelligent baseball people won't vote them into the Hall
Raines
Blyleven

It'll never happen, but should (have)
Alan Trammell
Albert Belle
Mark McGwire

Random List: Guys Active As Of 2007 Who Are HOF-Caliber, But Have Never Won and Will Never Win An MVP
Craig Biggio
Derek Jeter
Gary Sheffield
Mike Piazza

Finally, and this is my biggest pet peeve this time of year. Maybe y'all have "that guy" you've argued HOF stuff with. My guy whipped out MVP voting and All Star appearances in favor of a Jim Rice induction. To which I whipped out Dwight Evans (too easy). But it got me thinking:

Was Paul O'Neill better than, or even close to, Jim Edmonds? A resounding NO.

Was Bobby Bonilla better than, or even close to, Scott Rolen? Offense looks similar, but defense makes it a resounding NO.

Was Joe Carter even in Albert Belle's stratosphere? Of course not.

Reputation doesn't always approximate actual production, either in retrospect or present day, and it grinds my gears when people try to pass this off as some sort of end-all.

David Arnott

by David Arnott on Jan 8, 2008 9:45 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

Re: HOF

Tim Raines. No brainer.
Andre Dawson.
Dale Murphy
Lee Smith

All these guys were game-changers, imho. I'd really really really like to consider Will Clark. Maybe there should be a special wing of the Hall just for guys like him?

The SF Giants: we're not much, but you should check out our team in Augusta!

by Lyle on Jan 9, 2008 2:36 AM PST reply actions 0 recs

Re: HOF

You know some people have really made the hall this shrine of holiness. The last stop to immortality, the holy grail of all that is Godlike.

I hate to break it to you purist's out there (s'up Bob Costas), its an F'ing museum for christs sakes. Lighten up...

Rose
McGuire
Raines
Blyleven
Gossage

these should have been your inductee's and are absolutely no brain entries. (unless of course there is some stupid ass rule as to the number that can go in during any one given year)

Ain't nothing that hurts worse than a good Shinburger... ~Krukow

by HarshInFresno on Jan 9, 2008 6:10 AM PST reply actions 0 recs

Re: HOF

At least there's no stupid ass rule like the NFL about the number that HAS to go in every year.

My boy ain't fat, he's just big boned. Big bat, too.

by Roger on Jan 9, 2008 6:53 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: HOF

actually, MUST would have been a better word choice there. (stupid faster typer than I can think).

My boy ain't fat, he's just big boned. Big bat, too.

by Roger on Jan 9, 2008 6:54 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: HOF

"That's way harsh, Harsh."

The SF Giants: we're not much, but you should check out our team in Augusta!

by Lyle on Jan 9, 2008 7:00 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: HOF

Bert Blyleven and Tim Raines are the only ones I'm passionate about getting in. Blyleven had the best curveball of his time, and some contend of all time, and he did well as a pitcher, only he had the problem of pitching for losing teams, which diminished his W/L which reporters EVEN TODAY still rate very highly and above all else, seemingly. Raines was a great basestealer and a great hitter, should be a no-brainer.

I think Pete Rose and Shoeless Joe should be in as well. Come on, most hits in history? If you want to condemn his actions as a manager, then ban him from getting in as manager. And some sources say that Shoeless didn't know what was happening, and even if he did, he still hit .375/.394/.563/.957 during the series, what more could he do to win, and if that is taking a fall, I hate to see what he would do otherwise.

I think McGwire might eventually get in, but should sweat it out. Bonds at least would have been a good to great player without the alleged steroidal help, but McGwire is basically Dave Kingman displaced by 15 or so years, except that he was OK defensively and Kingman was all HR swing (and rat). Sure, he hit a lot of homers, but in an era where runs scored were greatly elevated, that diminishes the accomplishment. If he had kept up his batting average and been about a .300 hitter, then I might think differently but he's pretty one-dimensional in my mind.

"I'm a Giant now... I like watching the ball get up there" - Wendell Fairley "I'm really proud to be on this team." - Nate Schierholtz

by obsessivegiantscompulsive on Jan 9, 2008 11:38 AM PST reply actions 0 recs

Re: HOF

Goose
Blyleven
McGwire
Raines
Robb Nen
Lee Smith

If Santo gets in, then Rice should get in, too. Rice's #'s are better, though his defense was worse.

Bonds stands alone.

by nostocksjustbonds on Jan 9, 2008 1:27 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

Re: HOF

How Dale Murphy keeps getting a paltry 10-15% of the vote every year is beyond me. He won back to back MVPs ('82 and '83) and spent the majority of his career on absolutely MISERABLE Braves teams.

Sure, he doesn't have 400 homers, and his lifetime average and K's totals are bad, but if he'd played on a marginally competitive team for most of his career, he'd have had 450+ homers, and more like a .280 career average.

He's also probably the only guy you could legitimately say never, never, ever took any juice not labeled 'Apple'.

Granted, I grew up in Atlanta, and got to watch him for almost his entire career (I'm only 30, he started before I was a mere twinkle in the eye...), but his numbers, compared with his contemporaries, scream for enshrinement.

Losing sleep on the East Coast since 1987...

by Dude In Athens on Jan 9, 2008 8:33 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

Re: HOF

I tend to not like arguments like "if x had been the case this player would have done y." Unless it's something like, Barry Bonds would have hit more homeruns had he played in the Kingdome instead of Three Rivers, Candlestick and the Bell. Or this player would have hit better had he played in Coors.

Those are very tempered statements that don't give any specific numbers. I'm just not comfortable with people making up numbers for hypothetical situations and then using that as an argument for something like a hall-of-fame induction.

And why do you say Dale Murphy is someone whom we can be sure never took steroids? Is it because he's Mormon?

Only 972 games until the end of Zito's contract.

by thehavenot on Jan 10, 2008 9:40 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: HOF

There was a guy on the old Rec.sport.baseball, Clay Davenport I think who was a huge Dale Murphy fan. He eventually became one of the Baseball prospectus guys.

The argument for Murph was that he had an excellent 5-year peak. The argument against was that that was it.

He (Clay) use to post HOF lists whenever a candidate came up, and there was always the "DALE MURPHY" line in capitals. This must have been back in 1995 or something.

To this day, I always think of Dale Murphy as the "Mendoza Line" for HOF outfielders (at least on peak value)

by zenbitz on Jan 10, 2008 10:08 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: HOF

1 - Duane Kuiper
2 - Mike Krukow
3 - Dave Flemming
4 - Rob Nen
5 - Marvin Benard

Brian Sabean is akin to a treatable form of cancer... just get rid of it before it kills you

by milesntrane on Jan 10, 2008 9:43 AM PST reply actions 0 recs

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