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Around SBN: Knicks 90, Raptors 87: "Shump and Lin wouldn't let us lose."

20/20 Mad Dog

The world is different at 5:30 in the morning. A lingering smell of sulfur, people snacking on human cadavers in the open...it's the exact post-apocalyptic nightmare that I was expecting.  Reality bends like light through a prism, but the colors that come out are just different shades of black. My god, was that a shotgun blast, or was that the sound of the earth opening up to swallow those whom light does not touch?

Warning: For the next few months, Tuesday and Thursday entries might be a strange. I have a 7:30 class in San Jose, which means that I have to be on a 6:00 train, which means.... It sounded like a good idea at the time.

But it's a perfect time to close my eyes and concoct the ultimate "What-if"-team. The rules:

  • You get three moves to undo or invent in the Brian Sabean era.
  • No touching the draft. Any team with a time machine on draft day would be the '27 Yankees.
  • If you're going to trade for another team's prospect, make it realistic. The Twins might have traded Justin Morneau at one point, but they were never giving up Joe Mauer.
  • No undoing the A. J. Pierzynski trade or signing Vlad. Those are the "R S T N L  E" to this post's "Wheel of Fortune." They're givens. Unlike the "Wheel" letters, though, you ain't gettin' `em.  They're just too danged obvious.
  • A sneaky way to get two moves in one is to acquire someone who plays the same position as a wretched player. Re-signing Bill Mueller after 2002 gets rid of Edgardo Alfonzo too, even though I will ban anyone who claims they were pushing for this move at the time. Mueller was roster filler at that point. Alfonzo was a twenty-something coming off a .300/.391/.459 season, and he was two years removed from an MVP-caliber season. Alfonzo's bad back never put him on the disabled list here, so his detalenting happened for some other reason. Stop blaming the damn back.
  • Sorry. That one always gets me.
My moves:
  1.  Re-sign Bill Mueller after the 2002 season, and don't sign Edgardo Alfonzo. This might not have pushed the Giants to a championship, but it wouldn't have hurt, and I just like Bill Mueller. The Giants would have done this in real life if they listened to me.
  2. Sign Greg Maddux to a five-year deal after the 2002 season.
  3. Trade Jesse Foppert and Ryan Hannaman to Florida for Derrek Lee before the 2003 season.
I took about two seconds to think of each of these, so this certainly isn't the definitive list. I didn't want to take all of the best ones.

Your hindsight-aided team, if you would.

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Re: 20/20 Mad Dog
-Trade Jason Schmidt to the Phillies for Ryan Howard in 2005

-Fire Brian Sabean after the 2006 season

-Hire Manny Acta as manager instead of Bruce Bochy, and hire Paul DePodesta as GM (not necessarily in that order)

by Chulk on Jan 24, 2008 8:09 AM PST reply actions  

Re: 20/20 Mad Dog
I don't think I could come up any better 3 than those.

by ResDog on Jan 24, 2008 8:17 AM PST up reply actions  

Re: 20/20 Mad Dog
-Schmidt being moved was something that I was "for"...for two years.

-Acta, without question.  (How many here questioned Acta as unseasoned?)

-Sabean, ohh...hi-m

by Kent @ McCovey Chronicles on Jan 24, 2008 4:32 PM PST up reply actions  

Re: 20/20 Mad Dog
Chulk has it right.

1, 2, and 3. Hire Paul DePodesta either before Frank McCourt hired him, or after McCourt fired him.  Either way works.

Everything else would have fallen into place after that.

by rotorueter on Jan 24, 2008 8:18 AM PST reply actions  

Re: 20/20 Mad Dog
1 and 2.  Sign Aramis Ramirez at the end of '06 season.  We dont' need Pedro and we can't afford Zito so we settle for Gil Meche.

3.  Trade Jason Schmidt and Edgardo Alfonso to Red Sox for Hanley Ramirez and Anibal Sanchez in 2005

Here's to Kemp, Loney, LaRoche, Hu, and Kershaw not panning out.

by Woody Wins on Jan 24, 2008 8:18 AM PST reply actions  

Better yet,
trade for ARam in 2003. The Cubs gave up Jose Hernandez, Matt Bruback, Bobby Hill for ARam AND Kenny Lofton.

by rfloh on Jan 24, 2008 9:45 AM PST up reply actions  

Re: Better yet,
That is a great call!  The Cubs really stole ARam from the Bucs.  Unbelievable.

by 22TheThrill on Jan 24, 2008 9:59 AM PST up reply actions  

Re: 20/20 Mad Dog
-not hire Alou as manager

-never signing Benitez/never letting the Nen saga drag on would have been nice too

-and i have to agree with the Maddux statement. Phone book park would have been perfect for his style of pitching talent. (living in Chicago, I very much hoped for that reality)

by m3lkor on Jan 24, 2008 8:20 AM PST reply actions  

Re: 20/20 Mad Dog
The trouble is, Sabean did try to sign Maddux.  If I remember correctly, we offered him a slightly more lucrative 3-year contract than the Cubs offered him and he went with the Cubs anyway.

It's tough to be down on the Giants for this one.

by rotorueter on Jan 24, 2008 8:22 AM PST up reply actions  

Re: 20/20 Mad Dog
true, but werent there also rumblings before he went to the Fathers? going after him could have saved us from this whole Zito debacle.

by m3lkor on Jan 24, 2008 8:29 AM PST up reply actions  

Re: 20/20 Mad Dog
You got that right, I think that's why Grant said "5 year contract".  
"I'm a Giant now... I like watching the ball get up there" - Wendell Fairley "I'm really proud to be on this team." - Nate Schierholtz

by obsessivegiantscompulsive on Jan 24, 2008 10:14 AM PST up reply actions  

Re: 20/20 Mad Dog
That just isn't plausible though---no one could have known that Maddux would have been worth such a massive risk.

It's like saying we should have cheaply acquired Mike Piazza at age 17, and then signed him to a 15 year contract.

by rotorueter on Jan 24, 2008 10:18 AM PST up reply actions  

Re: 20/20 Mad Dog
how is a starter that has had only 4 seasons with less than 13 wins in his 21 year career not worth the risk. i'd say that exemplifies consistency at its utmost.

by m3lkor on Jan 24, 2008 10:26 AM PST up reply actions  

Re: 20/20 Mad Dog
Signing a 38-year-old, no matter how consistent, to a five year contract is always a risk.
2008: The year the Giants begin to stop sucking.

by EliminateMe on Jan 24, 2008 10:39 AM PST up reply actions  

Re: 20/20 Mad Dog
But there are some guys who are riskier than others.  I'd say that Maddux was on the low end of the risk spectrum.

And, would it have been much riskier than the seven year deal we gave Zito?

Only 972 games until the end of Zito's contract.

by thehavenot on Jan 24, 2008 1:38 PM PST up reply actions  

Re: 20/20 Mad Dog
Correct on the risk account.  He has basically had a handshake agreement (a few years ago) to end his career here in San Diego, which is what he is doing.  Until then, Scott Boras was gonna get him whatever he could in shorter deals (the Padres don't have a bad relationship with Boras but they never pay above market on anyone).

Maddux in 2007 was far more valuable in Spring Training than he was on the mound, helping guys like Peavy especially (nice Cy Young).  Don't let his wins totals fool you.  He was horribly inconsistent, but given his age that's almost unfair to say.  He did the best he could with "Josh Towers stuff" as he's been labeled.

But the Padres' stellar bullpen was gassed in September, and he's a large reason why.  He made all his starts but didn't even reach 200 innings because had to be pulled constantly before going thru the order a third time.  The fact that his numbers were league average is a testament to both PETCO Park and the man's brilliance at knowing how to pitch without an arsenal.

In sum, a long-term deal with Maddux in SF was never gonna happen without retarded money, and it would have been one hell of a bad contract.

by mlb22 on Jan 24, 2008 2:00 PM PST up reply actions  

Re: 20/20 Mad Dog
That just isn't plausible though---no one could have known that Maddux would have been worth such a massive risk.

That's kind of the point of this whole thing, though. Of course we would have bitched about this move at the time, but it would have worked out just fine. We would have all committed hari-kari if Foppert were traded for anyone, but it turns out we would have been better off trading him for Rafael Betencourt.

by Grant Brisbee on Jan 24, 2008 3:48 PM PST up reply actions  

Re: 20/20 Mad Dog
I'd avoid Maddux and just say "don't trade away Russ Ortiz." It has the added benefit of not freeing up the money that was spent (at least a large chunk of it) on Neifi Perez.
Fool me seven times, shame on you. Fool me eight or more times, shame on me.

by Bhaakon on Jan 24, 2008 1:37 PM PST up reply actions  

Re: 20/20 Mad Dog
there's a ton of things we could have done but I think that we're so bad now in part because we refused to trade Schmidt and Durham when then were having really good years, were on their way to free agency, and the team was dead in the water at the deadline. No telling what exactly we could gotten for them but I have to think we'd have at LEAST one major league ready player and maybe a back of the rotation guy or a decent reliever, if not more.
2002? I'm over it. But I'll never be over Rich Aurilia.

by wjackalope on Jan 24, 2008 8:30 AM PST reply actions  

Re: 20/20 Mad Dog
  1. make sabean go back for joe nathan, even though cloverfield is kicking our ass, and make sure he gets bitten by spider bugs
  2. put felipe alou on "the apprentice: quasi-celebrity edition" instead of hiring him
  3. trade aardsma, jerome williams, and some other douche in 2004 to arizona for brandon webb
thank god the patriots dont have the giants' first round pick too

by son of riles on Jan 24, 2008 8:32 AM PST reply actions  

I agree with Chulk
How can you beat that? If we're allowed to be a bit more unrealistic, I'd have fired Sabean in 2004, but that's just me.

Grant, welcome to my world. I begin work at 3am on Thursdays and Fridays. Fortunately, no public transportation is involved in my commute - I pollute all on my own, but don't share the car with any weirdos. Fossil fuels ftw!

"I think I'd trust Amy Winehouse to guard my bag of coke before I'd trust Sabes to build my offense." -Dan Szymborski, Baseball Think Factory

by Lyle @ McCovey Chronicles on Jan 24, 2008 8:45 AM PST reply actions  

Re: 20/20 Mad Dog
  1. Develop Jeremy Accardo as Closer in 2005 and never pick up Mondo.  I still get heartburn hearing his name...
  2. December 2002, only sign Ray Durham to a 2 year deal then aquire Alfonso Soriano from the Yankees while he was still cheap in 2004.  Sign him to a 5 year deal.
  3. 2008, Punt. :(
If I owned this place and Hell, I'd rent this out and live in Hell...

by ilselu1 on Jan 24, 2008 9:00 AM PST reply actions  

Re: 20/20 Mad Dog
Now that is especially impressive hindsight, considering that on the opening day of the 2005 season, Accardo had exactly 8 innings of experience above single-A level.
2008: The year the Giants begin to stop sucking.

by EliminateMe on Jan 24, 2008 10:43 AM PST up reply actions  

Re: 20/20 Mad Dog
It took A-Rod to get Soriano from the Yankees.

A-Rod.

Nate Schierholtz cannot play third base. Nate Schierholtz cannot play third base. Steve Kline is pretty okay. Nate Schierholtz cannot play third base.

by groug on Jan 24, 2008 1:45 PM PST up reply actions  

Re: 20/20 Mad Dog
  1. Sell in 2006 by trading Schmidt, Durham, Alou and any other veteran that we could.
  2. Keep Jeremy Accardo
  3. Do not sign Armando Benitez.
My goodness, there's so much more I'd change, it's scary.
Only 972 games until the end of Zito's contract.

by thehavenot on Jan 24, 2008 10:01 AM PST reply actions  

Re: 20/20 Mad Dog
just off the top of my head
  1.  re-sign kenny lofton after the 2002 season.
  2.  don't trade for sydney ponson during the 2003 season.
  3.  sign derek lee when he was a free agent and went to the cubs.  i remember hearing rumors that the giants were interested in him.

by travis j bagdad on Jan 24, 2008 10:07 AM PST reply actions  

Re: 20/20 Mad Dog
He was a local boy, from Sacramento, so I don't know if the rumors about the Giants were real or if he was just expressing interest in moving closer to home.
"I'm a Giant now... I like watching the ball get up there" - Wendell Fairley "I'm really proud to be on this team." - Nate Schierholtz

by obsessivegiantscompulsive on Jan 24, 2008 10:20 AM PST up reply actions  

Re: 20/20 Mad Dog
oh, ok, i couldn't remember, but i knew i was reading his name linked to giants and actually at the time was happy we didn't get him...

by travis j bagdad on Jan 24, 2008 11:27 AM PST up reply actions  

Re: 20/20 Mad Dog
and he wasn't a FA yet... Cubs acquired him in a trade, so acquiring him wasn't going to be a slam dunk.

Personally, I feel the team was so attached to Snow that they were not serious about Lee.

by bendito on Jan 24, 2008 10:55 AM PST up reply actions  

Re: 20/20 Mad Dog
Why the Ponson trade?  There wasn't anything that we gave up in that trade that has come back to bite us.
Only 972 games until the end of Zito's contract.

by thehavenot on Jan 24, 2008 1:44 PM PST up reply actions  

Re: 20/20 Mad Dog
Plus, Ponson wasn't even bad for us.

by kingofthacove on Jan 25, 2008 3:41 AM PST up reply actions  

Re: 40/40 Mad Pup
  1. Undo the Nathan, Liriano et al trade.
  2. Fire Joe Morgan as broadcaster
  3. Change the name of the team to the 'Treats'.
vr, Xei

by Xeifrank on Jan 24, 2008 10:08 AM PST reply actions  

Re: 20/20 Mad Dog
  1. Put Eric Young on 2003 playoff roster (to pinch run for Snow), and put Jose Cruz Jr. on inactive list for 2003 off-season and forever after.
  2. re-Sign Kent and Lofton after 2002 season.
  3. Let Feliz start at 3B in 2003, no Alfonzo signing.

by Goat on Jan 24, 2008 10:14 AM PST reply actions  

Re: 20/20 Mad Dog
wow, i forgot about kent...i would definately have re-signed him after 2002.

by travis j bagdad on Jan 24, 2008 11:29 AM PST up reply actions  

Re: 20/20 Mad Dog
Kent is an asshole though and started too many clubhouse problems...Barry would have murdered him in 03
I hope we find out someday that Jeff Kent did steroids

by lincysgiants on Jan 24, 2008 3:28 PM PST up reply actions  

Re: 20/20 Mad Dog
Kent took less money to sign with Houston. At the time I remember thinking "maybe he isn't such an asshole, at least he didn't just go for the money". I was wrong. He is that much of an asshole.
"I'd take pleasure in gutting you boy" Oh and ignore the spelling. I do.....

by someguynamedg on Jan 25, 2008 1:20 PM PST up reply actions  

Re: 20/20 Mad Dog
That was according to Giants' front office spin after that deal was done, but remember similar comments regarding Worrell and David Bell were hotly disputed by those players' agents. Generally I take all such comments from both sides with a significant grain of salt.
My boy ain't fat, he's just big boned. Big bat, too.

by Roger on Jan 28, 2008 9:58 AM PST up reply actions  

Re: 20/20 Mad Dog
  1. Collect underpants.
  2. I most definitely wanted Maddux signed and Schmidt traded.
  3. Profit!
Bochy: grounded until he stops hitting and running with slow runners and crappy hitters

by Stuttering John Tamargo on Jan 24, 2008 10:39 AM PST reply actions  

Re: 20/20 Mad Dog
South Park FTW!
Pedro Feliz: Marginally better this year.

by SloIsLonelyForTheOrange on Jan 24, 2008 4:18 PM PST up reply actions  

Re: 20/20 Mad Dog
Biggest move would be an attitude adjustment:

If you want to win a WS with Bonds, don't half-ass it. Sign Vlad, resign Kent, do whatever it takes.

Otherwise, don't keep living under the deluded impression that you are one sorry washed up veteran from a return to the post season.

  1. Derrek Lee - Snow was great when Kent could pick up the offensive slack for the rest of the infield, but with no Kent, Snow was a liability.
  2. Operating under the self-imposed "we can only spend 80 mil" restriction: I would have went after Jose Guillen in 04 to play RF instead of the Tucker/Hammond platoon.
  3. After reupping Winn (a light hitting outfielder who is suited to LF (where Bonds plays) or CF. I would not, under any circumstances have signed the 35 year-old Dave Roberts to a 3 year deal.
On that last note: How simple would our lives feel if we could count on watching a LF platoon of Davis and Lewis this coming year.

by bendito on Jan 24, 2008 10:53 AM PST reply actions  

Re: 20/20 Mad Dog
Pretty tough to re-sign Kent when he had zero interest in returning.  Our offer was already better than what the Astros offered.  Adding stupid years to the back end of it would have reduced the value of him returning.

by mlb22 on Jan 24, 2008 1:51 PM PST up reply actions  

Re: 20/20 Mad Dog
You sure?  I mean yeah it makes sense because he hated Barry, but I don't remember us going after him too hard.
Here's to Kemp, Loney, LaRoche, Hu, and Kershaw not panning out.

by Woody Wins on Jan 24, 2008 3:04 PM PST up reply actions  

Re: 20/20 Mad Dog
nah barry wasnt the reason he hated playing here.  he hates LOTS of players (just ask anyone under 30 in LA).  he was even quoted recently as saying he'd have no problem being barrys teammate again, and has said that often in the last few years.

he's just a grumpy old man who doenst like playing in cold weather, and had poor relationships with certain front office people in SF.

by mlb22 on Jan 24, 2008 3:27 PM PST up reply actions  

Re: 20/20 Mad Dog
The Astros only gave him 2 years, though...in hindsight, signing Kent to a 5/$50M contract would have been a great deal.
2008: The year the Giants begin to stop sucking.

by EliminateMe on Jan 24, 2008 3:14 PM PST up reply actions  

Re: 20/20 Mad Dog
yeah, Kent resigning was a long shot... but my point was more that they needed to be more dedicated to finding that other bat. Not get to the verge of championship and back off the spending.

by bendito on Jan 25, 2008 10:28 AM PST up reply actions  

Re: 20/20 Mad Dog
1 - Sign Richie Sexon after the '04 season.  Klesko sucks.  I can say this with authority after watching him flounder in several spots in the batting order, and several more defensive slots in Atlanta.

2 - Mail David Aardsma, Jerome Williams, and a sack full of shiny nickels to Billy Beane in exchange for Eric Chavez, let's say, 2004 offseason-ish.  This also saves us the LaTroy Hawkins 'era'.

3 - Sign Eric Gagne before the Rangers do in '07

Losing sleep on the East Coast since 1987...

by Dude In Athens on Jan 24, 2008 11:23 AM PST reply actions  

Re: 20/20 Mad Dog
I think that is the worst scenario I've heard yet.

So the Giants would have the same team we had last year:

Old position players who are hurt all the time and suck.

And an old closer that all Giants fans hate.

by justinohan on Jan 24, 2008 11:43 AM PST up reply actions  

Re: 20/20 Mad Dog
So, you dog the Sexon pickup, yet put him in your own lineup?  I see what you're doing here...

Sexon is 33 now, he would have been 29 in 2004.  Not exactly old.  
Chavez is just now 30.  
Those two, even with a middle infield of Durham/Vizquel, make up for a lack of power in the outfield by everybody not named Barry Bonds.

1 - Roberts/Davis/Lewis - LF/RF
2 - Rowand - CF
3 - Chavez - 3B
4 - Sexon - 1B
5 - Molina - C
6 - Winn - RF/LF
7 - Durham - 2B
8 - Vizquel - SS

Sub in Frandsden/Ortmeier/Scheirholtz into the IF/OF rotation as you please, it's still a more than adequate lineup.

I hate every Dodger until they end up in orange and black.  SuperSabes could have done, and in fact DID a lot worse, than signing Eric Gagne to a 1 year, incentive laden deal...

Losing sleep on the East Coast since 1987...

by Dude In Athens on Jan 24, 2008 12:42 PM PST up reply actions  

Re: 20/20 Mad Dog
Yeah great lineup. (Sarcasm)

So this is what you would of done?

Of all the moves you could make, this is what you think would've been the best option?

You gotta be kidding me man.

by justinohan on Jan 24, 2008 1:06 PM PST up reply actions  

Re: 20/20 Mad Dog
Adequate lineup?  You want an adequate lineup?  I can get you an adequate lineup, believe me.  There are ways, Dude.  You don't wanna know about it, believe me.  I'll get you an adequate lineup by this afternoon -- with nail polish.  These fucking amateurs.  They send us an adequate lineup, we're supposed to shit ourselves with fear.  Jesus Christ.
Here's to Kemp, Loney, LaRoche, Hu, and Kershaw not panning out.

by Woody Wins on Jan 24, 2008 3:17 PM PST up reply actions  

Re: 20/20 Mad Dog
Ohan has it right.  Eric Gagne was a middle of the line starter (i watched him not last 5 innings multiple times against the giants) until he got on  the juice and started snorting his way through 1 inning instead of 5.  Jason Schmidt should have won that CY Young, and he could have shot up roids and thrown 98 for 1 inning also.  Just the thought of Eric Gagne makes me remember him giving a pound to another Dodger ass clown, Jeff Weaver, after Michael Tucker ran his punk ass over.  

and the lineup... yikes.  even if you ahve those players, shuffle it up and you get a better look.  With a twist of my wrist, my magic wand gives you:

Davis/Lewis (Roberts is on the pine on my team)
Winn
Chavez
Sexson
Rowand
Molina
Durham
Vizquel

Winn and Vizquel are both professional enough to hit 8 and not have their feelings hurt, so they could be swappped if one gets hot, but Rowand has to hit 5, he has the past few years anyway, and Molina would be more productive at 6, with less pressure on him.  This Lineup still hopes that Chavez and Sexson hit well, but that better than hoping that Winn and Molina hit well in the 3/4 spots on the real Giants.

And I said all of that without any tasteless jabs.

by The Wind Cries Omar on Jan 24, 2008 2:03 PM PST up reply actions  

Re: 20/20 Mad Dog
If anyone can find the box score for this game I would be much obliged.  It was during Gagne's record saves streak, he came in against the Giants and blew a 4 or 5 run lead.  I was ticked that it didn't break his streak at the time but thrilled that he got hit around like that, and by the Giants no less. I've looked but don't remember the time frame well enough to find it.

by paboperfecto on Jan 24, 2008 3:01 PM PST up reply actions  

Re: 20/20 Mad Dog
Yea, the game was tied and Barry took him yard.  I think he choked a couple times coming in with a lead against the Giants.  

by The Wind Cries Omar on Jan 25, 2008 1:19 PM PST up reply actions  

Re: 20/20 Mad Dog
For me 2003/2004 was the defining moment for the Giants.  As soon as JT got tagged out in the playoffs at home plate in Florida, I would have like for the Giants to blow up this team. Three moves that I would have done....

Trade Schmidt to Texas for A. Gonzalez, G. Laird, and G. Matthews

Trade Bonds to Baltimore for B. Roberts, D. Cabrera, E. Bedard and BJ Ryan

Trade F. Rodriguez and Ainsworth to Seattle for Carlos Guillen.

by 22TheThrill on Jan 24, 2008 11:40 AM PST reply actions  

Re: 20/20 Mad Dog
Ainsworth was already gone before the end of 2003--traded for Ponson.

by tobias on Jan 26, 2008 1:02 PM PST up reply actions  

Re: 20/20 Mad Dog
  • Keep Arrcado
  • Trade Linccumm, Hennessey, Lewis, and Sanchez for Dontrelle and Miggie.
  • Sign Rowand.
NL West Champs.

 

by justinohan on Jan 24, 2008 11:48 AM PST reply actions  

Re: 20/20 Mad Dog
oh yeah..

Durham for Sexson

  1. Davis/Roberts
  2. Winn
  3. Rowand
  4. Miggie
  5. Sexson
  6. Molina
  7. Frandsen
  8. Vizquel
SP: Cain
SP: Zito
SP: Willis
SP: Lowry
SP: Corriea

CL: Arrcado
SM: Wilson

Cmon people.. NL West Champs or what??

by justinohan on Jan 24, 2008 11:55 AM PST up reply actions  

Re: 20/20 Mad Dog
Cmon people.. NL West Champs or what??

What.

This lineup only looks slightly better then last year's, and the rotation looks allot worse.  

"They invented the All-Star game for Willie Mays" - Ted Williams

by Cookyman on Jan 25, 2008 6:21 AM PST up reply actions  

Re: 20/20 Mad Dog
In what ways does the Giants' batting lineup this season (without their only legitimately good hitter, Barry Bonds) look better than last year's?

by sharksrog on Jan 25, 2008 2:36 PM PST up reply actions  

Re: 20/20 Mad Dog
Look two and three posts up from yours.  Miguel Cabrera is replacing Barry Bonds as the CleanUp Hitter and considering the fact that he gets close to 700 PAs every year while Barry has not had more the 477 since 2004 he is more valuable the Bonds.  In addition his lineup has Rowand hitting 3rd instead of Klekso from last year and Sexson hitting 5th instead of Durham from last year.  How could this not be a much better overall lineup?

by giantsrainman on Jan 25, 2008 4:03 PM PST up reply actions  

Re: 20/20 Mad Dog
And you said my moves were bad...
Losing sleep on the East Coast since 1987...

by Dude In Athens on Jan 24, 2008 1:38 PM PST up reply actions  

Re: 20/20 Mad Dog
Yeah Miguel Cabrera or Eric Chavez??

Dontrelle Willis or Eric Gagne??

Are you retarded??

Get a clue buddy.

by justinohan on Jan 24, 2008 1:57 PM PST up reply actions  

Re: 20/20 Mad Dog
If you think the Marlins were giving up Cabrerra and Willis in '04 - which is when i'm talking about the Giants picking up Chavez and Sexon - then you're out of your mind.  Cabrerra had just put forth one of the best rookie seasons ever, and Willis was at the apex of his unhittability.

I don't think the four guys you threw out there would have elicited much more than laughter from the Marlins after this season, much less if they were available in '04.

Thanks for the enlightening commentary though.  Glad to know the internet is still the last great haven of the anonymous mouthbreather...

Losing sleep on the East Coast since 1987...

by Dude In Athens on Jan 24, 2008 7:45 PM PST up reply actions  

Re: 20/20 Mad Dog
  1. Forget Alfonzo and keep Kent. For all the fuss over Bonds vs. Kent, they were fine teammates and Kents money went to Alfonzo. Kent was pissed because they didn't have faith in him over the next 3-4 years. Keeping Kent from 03-06 would've been nice. Rather than spending that same money on the Fonz.
  2. Sign Maddux to said 5 year deal
  3. Trade Foppert, Liriano, Nathan, Ainsworth, Williams for some mega star.
Frandsen for 3B (til July 08)

by NeifiChicken on Jan 24, 2008 12:12 PM PST reply actions  

Re: 20/20 Mad Dog
How about keeping Kent and, when it became obvious JT wasn't cutting it at 1B, slide Jeff over there and look for a cheap 2B?
"I think I'd trust Amy Winehouse to guard my bag of coke before I'd trust Sabes to build my offense." -Dan Szymborski, Baseball Think Factory

by Lyle @ McCovey Chronicles on Jan 24, 2008 1:55 PM PST up reply actions  

Re: 20/20 Mad Dog
  1. First order of business: develop the most aggressive and well-funded Latin American recruiting program in the game. Throw money at Miguel Cabrera, Franklin Morales, Fernando Martinez, Jose Tabata, Angel Villalona, and anyone else who catches the eye of the many Venezuelan and Dominican scouts on the Giants' payroll.
  2. After the 2002 season, sign David Ortiz as a cheap first-base solution.
  3. After the 2006 season, trade Ortiz to the Red Sox (still looking for that first championship!) for Clay Buchholz and Jed Lowrie. Sign Carlos Pena as a cheap first-base solution.

by Evan on Jan 24, 2008 1:02 PM PST reply actions  

Re: 20/20 Mad Dog
One thing I have noticed about many of these suggested moves (and many great ones have indeed been suggested).  We don't really know for sure if many of them could have been done or not, although I agree that most of them appear reasonable.

The three moves I would have made were:

.  Retool the scouting and farm systems the day Brian Sabean was hired.

.  Hire Theo Epstein as GM after the 2002 season instead of rehiring Sabean.  Theo made revamping the Red Sox's scouting and development systems his top priority when the Red Sox hired him.

.  Hire one of the several good GM candidates for 2008 instead of rehiring Sabean.  I actually think Brian is going to do OK now, but I don't think it was wise to reward his futility since the end of the 2002 World Series with a contract extension.  Not sure it sends the right message.

My third one is kind of weak, but you've got to admit the first two are pretty good.  :)

by sharksrog on Jan 24, 2008 1:02 PM PST reply actions  

Re: 20/20 Mad Dog
Theo was never going anywhere but Boston.  It was in the works the moment his mentor, Lucchino, got involved in talks to go from San Diego to Boston.  And Theo is a Boston kid.  It was laid out from the day he began as an intern here at the Padres.

by mlb22 on Jan 24, 2008 1:49 PM PST up reply actions  

And yet, the Boston kid
disagreed enough with his mentor that he chose to go walkabout and leave for how many months?

by rfloh on Jan 24, 2008 2:36 PM PST up reply actions  

Re: And yet, the Boston kid
you're not going to go believing whatever you read in the media now, are you? he never really left.  it was a power play, and he won.  theo is a brilliant guy, smarter than you or i.

by mlb22 on Jan 24, 2008 2:44 PM PST up reply actions  

Re: He never really left?
I thnk it's that he never left in the "figurative" sense.

Yes, he actually did leave, but he did it in order to force somebody's hand and had no personal intention of ending up anywhere but back in Boston.

That is, I believe, the correct reading of mlb22's post.

He is Vengeance. He is the Knight. He is Dave Righetti. PRAY TO HIM!

by howtheyscored on Jan 24, 2008 11:14 PM PST up reply actions  

Sharksrog's ideas
Actually, Roger, I think your third suggestion was the best!
"I think I'd trust Amy Winehouse to guard my bag of coke before I'd trust Sabes to build my offense." -Dan Szymborski, Baseball Think Factory

by Lyle @ McCovey Chronicles on Jan 24, 2008 1:56 PM PST up reply actions  

Re: 20/20 Mad Dog
1 - Stand up for Bonds from the very beginning and state that he will retire as a Giant and then sign him to an extension DURING the '07 season.

2 - Whatever that Schmidt/Hanley Ramirez trade was..do it.

3 - Resigned Ellis Burks after '01.  (The '02 WS would not have even been close had Sanders not been a choke artist.  Ellis could be counted on in the clutch.)

by positiveuphemism on Jan 24, 2008 1:04 PM PST reply actions  

Re: 20/20 Mad Dog
good call on burks.. he was the man.

by justinohan on Jan 24, 2008 1:08 PM PST up reply actions  

Re: 20/20 Mad Dog
Ellis was a fine ballplayer, but after leaving the Giants he played only 212 outfield innings in his three-plus seasons in the AL.  Ellis signed to play in the American League because his knees were too far gone to play more than sporadicly in the outfield.

by sharksrog on Jan 24, 2008 11:19 PM PST up reply actions  

Re: 20/20 Mad Dog
Yeah, but if he had been willing to stay with the Giants as a backup OF/pinch hitter... On the other hand, replacing Sanders with Burks on the 2002 roster would have meant more outfield starts for Shawon Dunston, so maybe it wouldn't have been a good thing after all.
2008: The year the Giants begin to stop sucking.

by EliminateMe on Jan 25, 2008 9:30 AM PST up reply actions  

Re: 20/20 Mad Dog
I'm taking about three seconds to think of this, so some may be a little off given certain factors, BUT:

Throw a bunch of money at Sheffield.  Sure he wanted to be a Yankee, but money talks, and Kent and Bonds sure proved you could play together without liking each other.  I don't think Sheffield actually hated Bonds at this point, but I could be wrong. (This is me circumventing the no Vlad signing, but it should have been plan B).

Keep AJ.  I will still defend that on the face of it AT THE TIME, this trade wasn't horrible.  But the "Horridnous" was compounded by letting him walk for nothing.  That never ever made sense to me, regardless of how "bad a teammate" he was.

Do not sign Barry Zito.  Yes, he probably won't be as bad in the future.  But there is very little way in hell he ever justifies this salary.  Save the money for those who are worth it, or those who may actually make a difference in the win column for a team like this.

Just because you CAN vote doesn't mean you SHOULD vote. Support Natural Selection!

by Angry Mike on Jan 24, 2008 1:12 PM PST reply actions  

Re: 20/20 Mad Dog
  1. Don't trade away Russ Ortiz. Note that this essentially voids the Ponson trade (No need for a crappy fatass if you have an effective one) and, arguably, the Neifi and Jose Cruz deals (not enough cash).
  2. Since you can't sign Vlad, sign Tejada instead.
  3. Don't sign Zito.
I can't say that this would make the Giants a particularly superior team right now, but it might have garnered them a ring in 2003 or 2004, and maybe a playoff spot in 2006/5.
Fool me seven times, shame on you. Fool me eight or more times, shame on me.

by Bhaakon on Jan 24, 2008 1:45 PM PST reply actions  

Re: 20/20 Mad Dog
  1. Undo the Accardo for Chulk and Hindenburg trade: pretty obvious, I'd 'spect, but if this hadn't happened, we'd be talking about a promising young bullpen to go along with our promising young rotation.  Think about it-- Accardo for the ninth, Wilson for the eighth, and Hennessey for the seventh?  That sounds pretty damn good to me.
  2. Resign Kenny Lofton following the '02 season.  For a GM who doesn't have a problem with older players, I can't for the life of me figure out why Sabes wouldn't want to keep Lofton, who seemed to mesh so well with the 02 roster and has actually stayed relatively productive over the last five years.  Could have been had for not too much cash, either, i'd bet.
  3. The Derrek Lee deal Grant proposed sounds good to me.  
Idolizing Robb Nen since 2002...

by Smoke on the Water on Jan 24, 2008 2:16 PM PST reply actions  

Re: 20/20 Mad Dog
  1. Resign Bill Mueller after the 2002 season, sure, it likely wouldn't have meant us having a 20+ home run/year guy at the hot corner, but we would have had a good defenisve player over at 3rd and a had a really good backup in Pedro Feliz (dont discount the fact that Pedro actually has had some of the biggest home runs since 2000, namely the grand slam off of LA in 2004 to keep us in contention).
  2. Keep Kurt Ainsworth. Think about it, right now, if we still had Ainsworth and he was in good shape (both physically and mentally) we would have the best pitching staff in the last decade (yes, that includes Glavine, Maddox, Smoltz, and insert names here)with Cain, Lincecum, Lowry, Zito, and Ainsworth. Plus, we would have never recieved the bust that is Sir Sidney. We would have won the second game against the Marlins and would have won the NLDS because Schmidt would have won game 5.
  3. Resign Jeff Kent. Yes, I hate the fucking prick! Yes, I am a Barry Bonds fan (mainly because he kept us competitive over the last decade or so)! Yes, I hate any man who decides to play in Dodger Blue after playing the Orange and Black! And I will never forgive ANYONE for perfering Los Angeles over San Francisco (even if LA is a superior city to Oakland)! However, had we kept Kent, we right now wouldn't have a delemma at second base, we would be wondering who would take over in a year or so when Jeff retires. We would likely have won a World Series by now, because to tell me Kent+Bonds+AMAZING PITCHING STAFF THAT WAS INVISIBLE DURING 2003=a better team than Boston in 2004, Chicago in 2005, St. Louis in 2006, and possibly Boston in 2007. I think we would have a competitive team this year which would include Kent, Feliz, Vizquel, Rowand, and a good pitching staff, with a possibility of Bonds also.
Patrick Willis probably could hit more home runs than the 2008 San Francisco Giants....thanks a lot Sabes

by Giantsdan on Jan 24, 2008 2:16 PM PST reply actions  

Invisible pitching staff?
I like that idea. Can't hit what you can't see!
Nattowear | comics | Durham? I hardly know 'im!

by Natto on Jan 24, 2008 3:52 PM PST up reply actions  

Re: 20/20 Mad Dog
Trading Ainsworth when they did was a good idea, in my opinion. He was completely incapable of staying healthy. After the Giants traded him away, Ainsworth pitched a total of 33 innings in 2003-04, with an ERA of 9.82, before being shut down repeatedly and eventually calling it a career.

Trading Ainsworth for Ponson was the mistake. Trading Ainsworth to Pittsburgh (with, say, Jason Ellison and Tony Torcato, or with Todd Linden and Tony Torcato) for Jeff Suppan would've been a better deal (in hindsight).

I agree about re-signing Kent. I don't like Kent either, but there's no denying that he's continued to be a top performer at second base for most of the the last five years since he left SF. I'm not sure if Kent would've been willing to return, though. I've always thought that Sabean putting Kent on the DL to start the season after the infamous Spring Training "truck washing" incident was when Kent decided he wouldn't return. Maybe a better contract offer would've changed his mind.  But I think Sabean publicly losing his temper over what Kent did exacerbated the situation and ended up hurting the Giants. I remember Kent being angry about getting put on the DL when he felt like he was fine and ready to play. Kent thought Sabean was basically "suspending" him for what he had done. Personally, I think that's exactly what Sabean was doing, but I don't think it was a smart move.  I mean, I get why Sabean would've done it, but in hindsight maybe Sabean should've taken a couple of deep breaths and counted to ten.  Maybe three, if ten was too high for him to go.

by tobias on Jan 26, 2008 1:44 PM PST up reply actions  

Re: 20/20 Mad Dog
I disagree.  Ponson actually pitched well for the Giants in 2003 he just did not get any offensive support since for some unknown reason Alou choose to almost never play Barry Bonds when Ponson pitched.  Sidney was no where near 2002 WS Livan Hernandez horrible in his one start against the Marlins in the NLDS either.  He had a so-so start but it was actually a better start then Kurt's or Jerome's.  Only Schmidt's opening game shutout was even a acceptable starting pitching effort and it was in fact a lights out effort.

by giantsrainman on Jan 26, 2008 3:17 PM PST up reply actions  

Re: 20/20 Mad Dog
Ponson was OK enough in the regular season--3-6 record with a 3.71 ERA and 1.21 WHIP. But the Giants didn't trade for Ponson for regular season help. They had a 12-game lead the day they traded for him.  

The one and only reason the Giants traded for Sidney Ponson was so they would have a bona fide #2 starting pitcher in the post-season. In that regard, Ponson could not possibly have been a bigger failure. If you want to argue that Ponson was "no where near 2002 WS Livan Hernandez horrible", fine. I won't argue that. Then again, saying someone wasn't as bad as Livan in Game 7 has to be about the faintest praise imaginable.

The truth is, Ponson was worse than "so-so", and Rueter's Game 3 start was better than Ponson's. My biggest fear going into the post-season was that Ponson would not be equal to the task of giving the Giants a solid, reliable, borderline-dominant #2 starting pitcher. My fear came to hideous fruition in the fifth inning of Game 2 of the playoff series vs. Florida.  

Here it is, the Giants have just taken a 4-1 lead, it's the fifth inning and it's time for Ponson to take the game and Marlins by the gills.  Instead we get one of the most "I don't want to be here" efforts I've seen since...well, since game 7 of the previous World Series.

Here's the fifth inning breakdown, hitter-by-hitter:

  • Jeff Conine: Nibble (ball 1), Nibble (ball 2), Pitch down main street (taken for strike 1), Another pitch down main street (Single)
  • Alex Gonzalez (who was absolutely incapable of hitting a curve ball): curve (strike 1), curve (strike 2), inexcusable piece of garbage hanging slider that nearly was ripped for a double or worse (lined foul); (Santiago comes out to verbally slap Ponson upside the head), curve (strike 3) Out #1
  • Todd Hollandsworth: Nibble (ball 1), Nibble (ball 2), Lame, nothing pitch down Broadway (Single)
  • Juan Pierre: Get-it-over strike looking, another weak pitch, over the heart of the plate (Single, 1 run scores)
  • Luis Castillo: Nothing pitch (Ground out,  Out #2, 1 run scores)
  • Ivan Rodriguez: Four pitches, each one completely devoid of any fire, or purpose, or heart.  At this point, Ponson is basically just inhabiting space.  His body language says, "I'm just out here throwing the ball".  He's not even interested in holding the base runner on second base.  Pierre steals third without a throw.  Ponson has completely capitulated to the situation, and to the Marlins.  (Rodriguez singles, 1 run scores)
  • Derek Lee: Ponson throws one more "I give up" pitch, and Lee rips a laser shot...luckily, right to Jose Cruz for the third out.  But incalculable psychological and emotional damage has been done...to me, at least.  
What only moments ago seemed on the verge of being (and absolutely should have been) an easy, series-controlling Game 2 win for the Giants, is now a tie game again.  And Sidney Ponson, wilting before the likes of Jeff Conine, Todd Hollandsworth and Juan Pierre, has shown his teammates and the baseball world that he is a gutless, empty shell.

Ponson was supposed to be one of the Giants' two horses, and he absolutely spit the bit. When it came time to take charge of Game 2 and show the Giants and their fans why he was brought in, Sidney Ponson ran and hid.  This had to be a devastating thing for his teammates to see.  Until today, they'd been hoping for the best--hoping Sidney would step up when the post-season bell rang, writing off his poor starts down the stretch to the meaninglessness of those games or to his having a B-lineup behind him in some of those games.  

But in that fifth inning, the awful truth was there for everyone to see. The Giants' #2 starter was no horse. Look, anyone can have a bad inning, but if you remember that inning as vividly as I do, you remember that it wasn't just that Ponson happened to give up 3 runs. It was the way he gave them up.  It's no accident, either, that Ponson was yanked from the game immediately following that inning. It was obvious, even to Felipe, that Ponson was not equal to the task of pitching in a big game.

The implications of Ponson's performance, applied to the remainder of the post-season, had to give the Giants a feeling of impending doom. Sidney Ponson, as much as anyone on the Giants' post-season roster, was a linchpin to the Giants' post-season hopes.  After Game 2, it was obvious that Ponson could not be counted on.

Almost everything that followed Ponson's fifth inning failure that day, bespoke a team that knew it had little margin for error in the post-season. The Giants, almost to a man, looked and played as if they each knew in their hearts that their hopes of post-season glory had just sprung a major leak.  

  • Alfonzo, up with the bases loaded and one out, pressed and tried to pull a fat, meaty pitch that he normally would've taken to right field for at least one run, if not two or three.  He popped up.
  • Santiago did pretty much the same thing. Focus seemed compromised, confidence damaged.
  • Alou inexpicably brings in Nathan, in the sixth inning.  Smells like panic to me.  Why not Herges?  Why Nathan so early? Was he thinking of having Nathan pitch three innings?  The move backfired badly.  Nathan had nothing. (By the way, if you look at Nathan's inning logs from 2003, you'll see that from the seventh inning on that season, Nathan had an ERA of 1.96 over 64.33 IP. But when pitching in the sixth inning that year, Nathan's ERA was 7.94 over 11.33 IP.)
Christiansen followed.  He, of course, had nothing. Eventually, Snow, Cruz and Grissom in the field looked like players who had completely lost focus.  Each, in turn, made uncharacteristically bad plays.  The Giants sleepwalked their way through the rest of the game.

We all know how the rest of the series played out. Cruz and the dropped fly ball. Jerome Williams. JT trying to score on Hammonds' single, while Eric Young...well, I don't know what he was doing, but he wasn't playing baseball for the Giants. Nevertheless, just as I said that day: "If the Giants go on to drop this series, I'll remember Sidney Ponson as the pivotal person that triggered the downfall."  That's how I remembered it then, and that's how I see it today.

by tobias on Jan 27, 2008 1:54 AM PST up reply actions  

Re: 20/20 Mad Dog
  1. Although somewhat against the rules, avoid signing any hyped type A free agents (cough MICHAEL Tucker cough) and use your first round draft pick on  talent each year.
  2. Schmidt for Hanley would have been enough
  3. Establish yourself as a leader in the Dominican, Venezuelan market, and throw money around there instead of wasting it on over the hill veterans.
Wouldn't it be nice to watch an era of Giants baseball knowing that the majority of the players on the field were home grown? There is something special to be said when you see a player rise through your system and become a star (David Wright anyone?).

by thejuice on Jan 24, 2008 2:50 PM PST reply actions  

Re: 20/20 Mad Dog
  1. Keep Dusty and make sure he doesn't yank Russ in the 7th of game 6 of 2002 WS.
  2. Spend the Barry Zito money on Latin American scouting since the Giants royally screwed the pooch when their #1 scout south of the border got in trouble for molesting players
  3. Give the Rangers anyone they wanted (not named Matt Cain) for Soriano in Dec. 2005.
Down in front meat!

by Homerdrew on Jan 24, 2008 4:42 PM PST reply actions  

Re: 20/20 Mad Dog
  1. Don't take until June in 2004 to realize Neifi Perez isn't good enough to be a starting shortstop.
  2. No intentionally jettisoning draft picks to sign mediocrities like Michael Tucker and Mike Matheny.
  3. Don't sign Chan Ho Zito.

by jc2125 on Jan 24, 2008 5:59 PM PST reply actions  

Off the top of my head
1.) Sign Ichiro! before the 2001 season to a seven-year contract.

2.) In early 2005, trade Schmidt for Howard and Hamels.

3.) Don't sign Alfonzo. Feliz handles third in '03 and '04. In 2005, trade Valdez, Schierholtz and someone else if needed for Youkilis.

by Dan from NM on Jan 24, 2008 6:20 PM PST reply actions  

Re: Off the top of my head
I just re-read the rules. I guess I cheated on the third one, so you can just consider it an undo of the Alfonzo signing.

by Dan from NM on Jan 24, 2008 6:23 PM PST up reply actions  

Re: Off the top of my head
I like #1. Nobody has mentioned Ichiro yet.

by Adam @ McCovey Chronicles on Jan 25, 2008 12:42 PM PST up reply actions  

Re: 20/20 Mad Dog
My Moves:
  1.  Re-sign Jeff Kent after 2002 WS for 6yrs and $66M instead of signing Ray Durham and Egardo Alfonzo for a combined 8 years and $55M.
  2.  After the 2002 WS Trade Kurt Ainsworth, Jessie Foppert, Jerome Williams, Benito Santiago, Yorvit Torrealba, and Rob Nen to the Pirates for Jason Kendall and Aramis Ramirez.
  3.  In the middle of the 2006 season keep Jeremy Accardo.  Do not trade for Shea Hillenbrand and Vinnie Chulk.  
This has several side benifits:

A.  Eliminates the AJ trade since we don't need a catcher to replace the expiring contract of Benito Santiago after the 2003 season. Jason Kendell's contract still has five years to go.

B.  Eliminates the Russ Ortiz and Livan Hernandez trades since we don't have the starting pitching depth (no AFW) to give up these two starting pitchers.

C.  Never need to sign Brett Tomko, Armando Benitez, Mike Matheny, Omar Vizquel, Moises Alou, Matt Morris Jemey Wright, Barry Zito, Bengie Molina, or Dave Roberts.

D.  Don't have Damian Moss and Kurt Ainsworth to trade for Sidney Ponson, Jerome Williams to trade for Latroy Hawkins, Jessie Foppert and Yorvit Torrealba to trade for Randy Winn, Egardo Alfonzo to trade for Steve Finley, or Matt Morris to trade for Rajai Davis.

E.  Since we spend most of the non major league minimum salary dollars on the core players of Bonds-LF, Kent-2B, Ramirez-3B, Kendell-C, Aurilia/Feliz-SS Schmidt-SP, Ortiz-SP, Hernandez-SP, Nathan-CL this encourages the  Giants to let the contract of Kurt Rueter expire after 2003 as they did with Rich Aurilia and Tim Worrell.

F.  Still have enough dollars left for the various PMV CF/RF/1B combos (Grissom, Cruz, Snow and Galarraga in 03, Grissom, Tucker, and Snow in 04 and 05 (but no dollars for Alou in 05), PMV1, PMV2, and Sweeney in 06 (but no dollars again for Alou), and Klesko and Sweeney in 07 (but no dollars for Roberts).

Resulting LineUps:

2003
Cruz-RF, Grissom CF, Kent-2B, Bonds-LF, Ramirez-3B, Snow/Galarraga-1B, Aurilia-SS, Kendall-C

2004
Grissom-CF, Tucker-RF, Kent-2B, Bonds-LF, Ramirez-3B, Snow 1B, Feliz SS, Kendall-C

2005
Grissom/Ellison-CF, Tucker/Linden-RF, Kent-2B, Ramirez 3B, Snow/Niekro 1B, Feliz-SS, Linden/Ellison/Ortmeier-LF, Kendall-C

2006
PMV1/Ellison-CF, PMV2/Linden-RF, Kent-2B, Bonds-LF, Ramirez-3B, Feliz-SS, Niekro/Sweeney-1B, Kendall-C

2007
Ellison/Lewis-CF, Linden/Schierholtz/Ortmeier-RF, Kent-2B, Bonds-LF, Ramirez-3B, Klesko/Sweeney-1B, Feliz-SS, Kendall-C

Resulting Rotations:

2003 - Schmidt, Ortiz, Hernandez, Rueter, Jensen/Correia/Hermansen

2004- Schmidt, Ortiz, Hernandez, Hermanson, Correia/Lowry/Hennessey

2005 - Schmidt, Hernandez, Lowry, Ortiz/Hennessey/Cain, Correia/Liriano

2006 - Schmidt, Hernandez, Cain, Lowry/Hennessey/Sanchez, Ortiz/Liriano/Bonser

2007 - Hernandez, Cain, Bonser, Lowry/Correia, Ortiz/Lincecum/Sanchez

Resulting Big3 Relievers:

2003 - Worrell-9th, Herges-8th, Nathan-7th

2004 - Herges-9th/7th, Nathan-8th/9th, Eyre-7th/8th

2005 - Nathan-9th, Eyre-8th, Walker-7th

2006 - Nathan-9th, Correia-8th, Accardo-7th

2007 - Nathan-9th, Accardo-8th, Hennessey-7th

Finally, we could then just re-sign Barry Bonds and Pedro Feliz for 2008 and have the following team to compete with:

LineUp:
Lewis CF
Frandsen 2B
Kent 1B
Bonds LF
Ramirez 3B
Schierholtz RF
Feliz SS
Alfonzo C

Bench: Rodriguez-C, Valez-IF, Ortmeier-1B/OF, Ellison OF, Linden OF

Rotation: Cain, Liriano, Lincecum, Lowry, Bonser

BullPen: Nathan-9th, Accardo-8th, Wilson-7th, Hennessey, Correia, Walker, Taschner    

Ain't Hindsight Grand!  

   

by giantsrainman on Jan 24, 2008 8:38 PM PST reply actions  

Re: 20/20 Mad Dog
/WIN
Down in front meat!

by Homerdrew on Jan 25, 2008 12:03 AM PST up reply actions  

Re: 20/20 Mad Dog
You would have traded Nen after the 2002 world series?  Not very ethical of you.
Only 972 games until the end of Zito's contract.

by thehavenot on Jan 25, 2008 9:49 AM PST up reply actions  

Re: 20/20 Mad Dog
I needed his annual salary dollars to balance the annaul salary dollars of Kendall.  Jason Kendall was critical to the deal but he had to cost nothing in annual salary dollars.  To get the Giants top three prospects (AFW - all starting pitchers and major league ready no less) and two catchers to replace Kendall just for adding a yet unproven thirdbaseman how could the Pirates resist?  Even knowing that Nen was done they could not pass this steal up.  After all, they did not have my advantage of access to hindsight.

by giantsrainman on Jan 25, 2008 12:57 PM PST up reply actions  

so easy...
  1. Hire Bonds.  Hire Tidrow as GM.  Never touch Sabean.
  2. Keep Torrealba and die happy.  No AJ.  No Matheny.  Draft pick in 2005.
  3. Keep Nathan/Liriano and die happy.  No Benitez.  More draft pick in 2005.
I really liked the class of 2005.

And lord, I hate Sabean's free-agen signings.

by wcw on Jan 24, 2008 9:08 PM PST reply actions  

Re: so easy...
Out of all the moves, one of the most "realistic" that really should have been made was keeping Torrealba and letting him develop into a starter.  I think thats really one of those "small moves" that could have paid bigger dividends in terms of how the resources could have been better allocated elsewhere.  Can't say any of us would have been necessarily thrilled given the track record of our farm system, but when it comes down to giving a starting job to either Feliz or Torrealba, I'm going with Torrealba in hindsight and going after a competent third sacker.
Just because you CAN vote doesn't mean you SHOULD vote. Support Natural Selection!

by Angry Mike on Jan 25, 2008 9:53 AM PST up reply actions  

Re: 20/20 Mad Dog
  1. trade schmidt to the red sox and get Hanley Ramirez when we could have
  2. Dont trade accardo to the blue jays.
  3. Dont sign benitez
with just those 3 simple moves we would be greatly improved, there are so many more things that i would change but i thought of these 3 in like 15 seconds
Play the Youngsters

by SFGIANT on Jan 24, 2008 10:17 PM PST reply actions  

Re: 20/20 Mad Dog
Why go so far back, let's look at the right now.

Noah Lowry for Lastings Milledge

Jonathan Sanchez for Delmon Young

I would love love LOVE to watch a Young, Milledge, Schierholtz outfield

I hope we find out someday that Jeff Kent did steroids

by lincysgiants on Jan 25, 2008 12:49 PM PST reply actions  

Re: 20/20 Mad Dog
Aren't you forgetting that Roberts, Rowand, and Winn are all still here and that your desired outfield is blocked for this year and next in LF and RF and the next 5 years in CF?

by giantsrainman on Jan 25, 2008 1:08 PM PST up reply actions  

Re: 20/20 Mad Dog
Those three would have obviously supplanted the prior moves. Duh. Don't rain on my under 24 parade man.
I hope we find out someday that Jeff Kent did steroids

by lincysgiants on Jan 25, 2008 9:49 PM PST up reply actions  

Re: 20/20 Mad Dog
Sanchez for Young is a no brainer to me, but weren't they insistant upon Lincecum?
Just because you CAN vote doesn't mean you SHOULD vote. Support Natural Selection!

by Angry Mike on Jan 26, 2008 11:21 AM PST up reply actions  

Re: 20/20 Mad Dog
Hindsight makes me think of looking at booty, when my vision is always 20/20!
He is Vengeance. He is the Knight. He is Dave Righetti. PRAY TO HIM!

by howtheyscored on Jan 25, 2008 1:14 PM PST reply actions  

Re: 20/20 Mad Dog
I'm for chain-reaction deals.

It's hindsight so...

  1. Sign Bill Mueller to 6-year extension for '01-'06. We get his best years, and 3B is not open for Fonzy. The Finley trade isn't made. We also save money on David Bell. Bill is overtaken by ARam (below) and doesn't retire a Dodger.
  2. Keep Russ Ortiz and Livan after WS. Before '03 deadline, deal Russ to Pirates for ARam and Ian Snell.
  3. Extend Kenny Lofton for '03, '04 seasons. No Cruz in the playoffs, no Mohr, no Tucker to punt a pick. No Grissom.
I'm hoping that by interfering in these ways, I set off multiple chain reactions, including using the money saved on Fonzy/spare OF parts to sign Vlad. I didn't put that in there, because that'd be against the rules. But we'd have the money. And, of course, we wouldn't pay for Moises Alou.

Hopefully the chain reactions continue, and we have no need to sign Durham/Feliz/Aurilia after '06, etc. etc.

We should also go back and give the Rockies something shiny for Matt Holliday, and break him in while Barry's down in '05. Mostly because I don't want the Rockies to have him.

Southern California: Water thieves and Dodgers fans.

by jasomack on Jan 26, 2008 11:37 PM PST reply actions  

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