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Apologies for the baseball content....

Among the irrationally optimistic, the conventional wisdom is that the Giants' starting pitching will keep the team in contention. Sure, there'll be a lot of nail-biting 1-0 games, but if you can keep the other team from scoring, etc.... Jerry Glanville leaving tickets for Elvis at every Falcons game was just a little less irrationally optimistic. Sometimes, I wish I had that kind of irrational optimism heading into the season. If I had credibility, I would sacrifice it gladly to live in a logic-free zone of fluffy clouds and Giants-can-contend optimism.

Unfortunately, I live in a scorched-earth reality that's just getting scorchier and realityier as the season gets closer. I wasn't getting crazy enough to think the starting rotation would lead to a playoff run, but I thought, hey, at least the Giants have one of the best rotations in baseball. Then I read this in the Sporting News. It seemed like a given that the Giants had one of the ten best rotations in baseball. What I forgot was that three other rotations in the top-ten are in the NL West, and those teams aren't likely to have a historically bad offense.

There's obviously room to quibble with the rankings -- maybe the Padres' back-end is too iffy to justify their second slot, the rankings of the Diamondbacks and Dodgers rely on injury-saddled vets, the Cub rotation might be overrated -- but the larger point remains. Every team in the NL West can pitch. Four of those teams can at least fake an offense. In order for the rotation to transcend the NL West morass of quality, Matt Cain and Tim Lincecum need to develop this season into the demi-gods we believe they eventually will. If they don't -- and I'm talking, like, 200 innings of sub-3.00 ERAs -- the Giants will likely have a good rotation, but one that only serves to drive us insane with close losses.

You knew this already. I suppose I needed to see the NL West rotations all lined up in order for it to register for me. My rankings:

  1. Diamondbacks - Even without Randy Johnson, it's a pretty sweet rotation. I'm a big believer in Micah Owings, but maybe that's because he would be a fine cleanup hitter on the Giants.
  2. Padres - Chris Young pooters out at the end of every season, but he's pretty danged good while it lasts. Jake Peavy is everything we hope Cain can be. Maddux will do his thing until he's 50, and Randy Wolf is a good and cheap gamble for a good and cheap team.
  3. Giants - I have to temper a lot of enthusiasm here, as I can't just assume that Cain and Lincecum are going to be beasts. I think they will. I hope they will. But I'm not going to rank them with Peavy and Young or Dan Haren and Brandon Webb just yet. Still, I'm stupid enough to be encouraged by Barry Zito's second-half, Noah Lowry's past K/BB success, and Kevin Correia's string of six good starts to finish the year.
  4. Dodgers -  They have Brad Penny and Derek Lowe to match what we can reasonably expect from Caincecum, Hiroki Kuroda to match what we can reasonably expect from Zito, and Chad Billingsley to blow away whatever Noah Lowry can do. I rank them below the Giants out of pure hatred.

    These are the top four rotations in the NL. It makes me homicidal with rage that they're all in the NL West.

  5. Rockies - What annoys me the most is that the Rockies have a good rotation too. They don't have a partner for Francis to match up with the other 1-2 punches in the division, but their offense will probably be good enough to make up the difference, the bastards.
Ranking madness continues in the comments section.

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Re: Apologies for the baseball content....
Padres fans on MLBtraderumors are talking about a Winn/Roberts for Kev Kouz trade.

Apparently they're looking for another corner OF.

Maybe our prays are being answered...

Take em, take em all!

Oh yeah, our rotation IS better than the dodgers.  Jason Schmidt has proven to be a great Giant even when hes on the dodgers.  Keep up the good work Schmidtty..

by justinohan on Jan 17, 2008 10:46 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

Re: Apologies for the baseball content....
Schmidt is now the back of the rotation, and I think he has a shot at coming back as better than that.  Billingsley has a chance to be a freaking monster next year.  Lowe remains a fabulous groundballer.

No, the names I question on the Bums' staff are Kuroda and Ol' 15.6% K Rate Penny.

However, they're still better than the Giants.  We have Cain, who should be better than Billingsley, and Lincecum, who can be better.  However, we also have Replacement-Level Zito, Ol' 12.5% K Rate Lowry and Correia/Sanchez/Misch and pals mopping up at the end.  That's a pretty steep drop after #1 & #2.

Winn + Roberts for KK?  I like that for the Giants if no money changes hands.

by wcw on Jan 17, 2008 11:03 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Apologies for the baseball content....
Lets just put it this way.. The Giants have a much better upside with more room too improve.

The Dodgers are one or two hamstring pulls or shoulder promblems away from having a middle of the rode rotation in the NL West.  Lets just pray that it happens.

by justinohan on Jan 17, 2008 11:07 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Apologies for the baseball content....
Now, now.  I love me some Clayton Kershaw, but he's not ready for the majors now.  Even if next year Kershaw does to the PCL what Cain did to it at the same age, he'll only be ready in 2009.

However, if that's a trade offer you're making, we have this successful lefty starter named Lowry you might like...

(Cough.)

by wcw on Jan 17, 2008 12:20 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Schmidty
I'm not sold on Schmidt ever pulling off any more solid seasons like he did for the Giants. If I recall correctly, right after he signed his 3-year contract with the Dodgers, he said something about being offered 5-year contracts but not taking them because he "didn't even know if he'd want to play that long."

Who the F doesn't want to play baseball FOREVER!?? Let alone for another guaranteed 5 years.

While I adored Schmidty as a Giant and, of course, I loathe him now, I don't think he has the fire in him. I think he's essentially retired (in his head) and will ride out the rest of his contract using the DL as a vacation time  slot.

by lrs77 on Jan 17, 2008 12:28 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Apologies for the baseball content....
If that trade happens, I will erect a bust of Sabean in front of Mays Field.
Nattowear | comics | Durham? I hardly know 'im!

by Natto on Jan 17, 2008 11:23 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Apologies for the baseball content....
Just giving up one of em would make me cream myself!

by justinohan on Jan 17, 2008 11:29 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Apologies for the baseball content....
And I will polish said bust every day.

I have a hard time believing the Padres are actually going to move Kouzmanoff, though. I read they were trying out their hot prospect Headley in the outfield because he's blocked at 3rd by Kouz.

2008: The year the Giants begin to stop sucking.

by EliminateMe on Jan 17, 2008 11:39 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Apologies for the baseball content....
Well they lost Giles at 2nd and Cameron in CF so a speedy corner outfielder who can cover ground would and hit in the top of the order would be an ideal fit for them.  

Plus Brian Giles is an old fart.

Winn can play all OF positions well and is a solid bat.  Plus hes not a 40 year old Gonzo.  Hes got some good baseball left in him.

Winn would be great for a contender like the Padres.  If he played in another linup he would of scored a 100 runs and hit 20 homers.  He was a good giant for the most part but hes being wasted on this team.

Good fit to me.

by justinohan on Jan 17, 2008 11:49 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Apologies for the baseball content....
I agree Winn could be a good addition to their OF, I just don't see them giving up Kouzmanoff after an 18 HR, .786 OPS rookie season. I'd love to be proven wrong.
2008: The year the Giants begin to stop sucking.

by EliminateMe on Jan 17, 2008 12:35 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Apologies for the baseball content....
the guy was a 28 year old rookie.. He could easily become a Lance Neikro.

But I wouldn't care as long as we dump salary and old guys in the OF.

by justinohan on Jan 17, 2008 12:55 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Apologies for the baseball content....
He turned 26 last July (DOB 7/25/81), having broken out at 25 and crushing AA and AAA.  Niekro crushed AAA, too, but at age 27 -- and at 1B.  Kouzmanoff is not a grade-A player, and his defense is suspect, but he should be an okay hitter and worth more than Niekro.

The reason I like this trade is to clear the OF and some salary.  Winn I actually like in CF at his current salary, but since Sabean shot his was on Rowand, Winn's blocking Schierholtz.  And Roberts in a platoon in CF I like all right, too, but in LF he's a real liability.

KK should put up a couple good seasons with the bat, and very cheap.  You hide his defensive failings in front of Cain's and Lincecum's strikeouts, and trade him right as he starts to get expensive to someone who doesn't understand defense.

by wcw on Jan 17, 2008 1:12 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Apologies for the baseball content....
Plus we could use Sanchez or Corriea to deal for a decent 1B.

by justinohan on Jan 17, 2008 5:10 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Apologies for the baseball content....
keep kevin in the rotation.. he's got it together.

by ANDY MELAMED on Jan 17, 2008 6:02 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Apologies for the baseball content....
If he played in another lineup he would have hit 20 HRs? That doesn't make any sense, especially if we're talking about a lineup that plays most of its games at Petco.
He is Vengeance. He is the Knight. He is Dave Righetti. PRAY TO HIM! / Also, my blog. For writers.

by howtheyscored on Jan 17, 2008 12:41 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Apologies for the baseball content....
I wasn't necessarily talking about the Padres lineup, I'm talking about another team other than the Giants.

If he hit on top of a team with a strong lineup.. Rockies, Red Sox, even the Astros, D-Rays or Cardinals he could of easily had a shot at 20 homers or at least scored a 100 runs.  

The guys done it before.  He hit .300.  I'm sure he'll have a better year in the Padres lineup this year than he will with the Giants.

by justinohan on Jan 17, 2008 12:53 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Apologies for the baseball content....
Sorry, I was a little snippety with that comment. My only thing was that it's obvious that things like R and RBIs are lineup dependent, but HRs are a completely individual acheivement, and don't depend on who hits in front of or behind you at all, unless you're bunting everytime for some reason. The park can have an impact on a HR, but I don't see how the lineup can.

It wasn't the point of your comment anyway to nitpick the one tiny detail. That was my bad, and sorry for doing it. Your overall point is a fine one and I don't wish to argue with it.

He is Vengeance. He is the Knight. He is Dave Righetti. PRAY TO HIM! / Also, my blog. For writers.

by howtheyscored on Jan 17, 2008 1:11 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Apologies for the baseball content....
I don't completely agree with your Hr arguement. Yeah it is a more individual acheivement  then Runs and RBI's. But who he is hitting behind, sure can make a diffrence.

EX: Rich Aurilia hit 37 HR's batting in front of Bond's in 2001. You can't tell me Richie didn't see more fastballs because he was hitting in front of Bonds. Also when Kent was struggleing in 02' , they put him in front of Bonds, and he took off. The point is hitting in fornt of the right guy, could make you see more fastballs.And if Your a good fastball hitter like Winn or Richie, that can lead to a few more HR's

Your 2010 NL rookie of the year,... Andy D'alessio

by ramirez415 on Jan 17, 2008 1:31 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Apologies for the baseball content....
Yeah, now that you put it that way it certainly makes sense.... Bonds is a bit of an extreme example, but I suppose we're not saying that Winn would be hitting 25-30 or anything like that.

Alright, I admit defeat... IF THIS DOESN'T WORK!!!

(I didn't have anything, I just like quoting Star Fox 64 since I lost so many hours to that game without even unlocking stupid foot mode... I actually do admit defeat)

He is Vengeance. He is the Knight. He is Dave Righetti. PRAY TO HIM! / Also, my blog. For writers.

by howtheyscored on Jan 17, 2008 1:45 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Apologies for the baseball content....
Last year's stats do support that argument. Hitting in the 3 hole last season (meaning largely in front of Bonds), Winn hit 8 of his HRs in 239 PAs. Extrapolated to 650 PAs, that would give him 21 HRs (as opposed to the 14 he actually hit).
2008: The year the Giants begin to stop sucking.

by EliminateMe on Jan 17, 2008 2:06 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

2002
Benito Santiago.
Rockies juggernaut rolls o...ver , dead. NL West TempestTeapot CASE IN POINT!

by victor frankenstein on Jan 17, 2008 7:10 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Apologies for the baseball content....
If that trade happens, I will erect a bust of Sabean in front of Mays Field.

And the headline will read:
Sabean's Bust Inspires Natto's Erection

Barack Obama: 1-1

by Goofus on Jan 17, 2008 12:32 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Apologies for the baseball content....
You're slipping, Goofus - you missed the chance to comment on my offer to rub Natto's erection daily.
2008: The year the Giants begin to stop sucking.

by EliminateMe on Jan 17, 2008 1:27 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Apologies for the baseball content....
Ummm...I didn't want to touch that...but you obviously do!
Barack Obama: 1-1

by Goofus on Jan 17, 2008 2:37 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Apologies for the baseball content....
our guys still cannot and should not go more than 7 innings over the long haul.. so even if they keep it close or even in the lead, our bullypen will still blowup ... hennessey should be good trade bait along with sanchez for a real closer..and or an addition in the batters box.. somehow i feel sorry for sabean's resources this year for trades..even though he brought it on himself with his need to win today to please mr. b..... FOUNTAIN OF YOUTH for sale... HELLLP.. WE NEED A GALLON..

by ANDY MELAMED on Jan 17, 2008 5:55 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Apologies for the baseball content....
JASON's looks just don't get him far in l.a.... if green bay had a baseball team schmidt would be the purrrfekt fit..

by ANDY MELAMED on Jan 17, 2008 6:00 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Apologies for the baseball content....
Surprised that SN ranked the Braves' rotation as low as 8th. Sure, two of them are old as dirt, but at their best, Smoltz, Hudson, Glavine are not too shabby as the front of your rotation. I'd put them ahead of the Dodgers, because Schmidt's return to greatness is highly uncertain and I always thought Derek Lowe was overrated.
Lon Simmons' adopted dad.

by Kitspool on Jan 17, 2008 10:57 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

Re: Apologies for the baseball content....
Not only that, but I remember there was an article saying Penny was poised for a pretty big fall.
Brian Anderson: I can has spot in Fresno 'pen?

by Anticon23 on Jan 17, 2008 10:59 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

The problems with the Braves is their back end
as it was last year.

Derek Lowe ERA+ with the Dodgers: 114, 124, 118. With >200 IP in 2005, 2006 and 199 IP in 2007.

He's grossly underrated.

Glavine at this point is nothing more than an innings eater. He's there so the Braves don't have to give starts to crap like Buddy Carlyle or Kyle Davies, which they did last year.

 

by rfloh on Jan 17, 2008 11:26 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: The problems with the Braves is their back end
Glavine won't even eat that many innings this year.

by NearestNorwich on Jan 17, 2008 5:37 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Apologies for the baseball content....
Glavine went back to Atlanta?

Reunion.com is probably blowing up Steve Avery's inbox...

Rockies juggernaut rolls o...ver , dead. NL West TempestTeapot CASE IN POINT!

by victor frankenstein on Jan 17, 2008 7:12 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Apologies for the baseball content....
Not only did he go to Atlanta, they coughed up their first-round pick-- to a division rival-- to get him for a year.

Apparently Schuerholz is taking more of a hands-off approach than I'd have thought. I haven't liked a single move Wren's made this offseason. (Well, from the Braves' perspective. I liked them giving up two pitchers for a broken-down Mark Kotsay plenty.) All of them smack of a desperation last-gasp effort at contention in 2008, followed by a teardown.

by PaulThomas on Jan 18, 2008 12:11 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Apologies for the baseball content....
"I liked them giving up two pitchers for a broken-down Mark Kotsay"

Hey! I know this script! I've seen this movie!

He is Vengeance. He is the Knight. He is Dave Righetti. PRAY TO HIM! / Also, my blog. For writers.

by howtheyscored on Jan 18, 2008 12:42 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Apologies for the baseball content....
I don't think the Dogs have a better rotation than the Giants either. Penny is walking coronary waiting to happen and you never know what Lowe is going to give you. Schmidtty has about a 10% of being a stud again. I think Billingsley has a shot at being their ace if Penny has an off year. Then who knows about Kuroda? He could end up being the second coming of Nomo and just destroy the league. Or he could turn into Igawa and be shipped to AAA after a month.
"I'd take pleasure in gutting you boy" Oh and ignore the spelling. I do.....

by someguynamedg on Jan 17, 2008 11:01 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

Re: Apologies for the baseball content....
Why no love for Lowe?  The man is a ground ball machine, with adequate K and BB rates.  He got a little tateriffic last year, but I expect him to bounce back and deliver his usual, good 200 IP.

by wcw on Jan 17, 2008 11:05 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Apologies for the baseball content....
Yea I know I've had him on my fantasy teams the last two years. I just can't get past my hatred of the Bums I guess. He is a perfect #2 or 3 starter and the heart of their staff.
"I'd take pleasure in gutting you boy" Oh and ignore the spelling. I do.....

by someguynamedg on Jan 17, 2008 12:45 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Apologies for the baseball content....
The Snakes getting Haren really tipped the balance.  The Braves have a great rotation, but the NL West is where it's at.  I expect Cain to show some Webb/Peavy studliness this year.  Too bad he'll have half their run support.  The Linkster will continue to mature and show some fireworks, and we'll get a "bounce-back" from Beezy and Noah.  Again, no runs will mean too few wins.

by MarkO on Jan 17, 2008 11:05 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

Re: Apologies for the baseball content....
+1  the diamondcracks could be the best team in the NL.

Pitching for a team bereft of legit 3-4-5 hitters HAS to have an impact on those pitchers.  And not a good impact.  that is, it is impossible to evaluate the strength of your rotation without also considering the strength of your lineup. The Giants rotation will underperform because of the offense.

Balance.  We don't have it.

"cynical yet whimsical giants related signature"

by The Gene Hackman on Jan 17, 2008 11:31 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Apologies for the baseball content....
Cain is probably going to be our #1 guy now, replacing Zito in that spot. I'm sure Cain will dazzle, as always, but now he'll often be up against the other team's #1. Thanks to our offense, we'll get this:

2008 Cain Stats: 211 IP, 222 Ks, 2.95 ERA, 1.20 WHIP, 3 Ws, 17 Ls

by lrs77 on Jan 17, 2008 12:39 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Apologies for the baseball content....
I almost definitely expect Zito to remain our opening day starter. Not because he deserves it, but because Sabean and Bochy both hate the idea of putting young players in positions of esteem. Because neither one thinks that a young player can handle esteem, not actually because of the whole "w00t savvie v3ts!" junk we always rehash.
He is Vengeance. He is the Knight. He is Dave Righetti. PRAY TO HIM! / Also, my blog. For writers.

by howtheyscored on Jan 17, 2008 12:46 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Counter-point
I disrespectfully agree that Sabean and Bochy like the vets, but expect to see Cain starting opening day:
  • Cain's in his 3rd year.  He's not oozing veteran savvy, but he's stating to to perspire it.
  • Giving Cain the nod would send the clear message that his performance last year did not go un-noticed, despite the W-L record.
  • By many accounts, Zito's problems were the result of trying to live up to the ace-like contract.  When he just said "f- it" and pitched, he did much better.  Moving him to #2 or #3 would ease the pressure and let Barry be Barry.
After the first couple of weeks of staggered schedules, who's in which slots stops mattering much anyway.  A #1 is just as likely to face a #2 or #5 as he is another #1.
Barack Obama: 1-1

by Goofus on Jan 17, 2008 2:43 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

not really true...
ranking pitchers 1-5 is pretty irrelevant.  After all, the rotation matchups become pretty much all a jumble after opening day.
Flossing a dead horse

by kenshin1 on Jan 17, 2008 3:33 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Apologies for the baseball content....
HAREN DUE FOR A BLOWN CUFF..

by ANDY MELAMED on Jan 17, 2008 5:57 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Apologies for the baseball content....
I agree that Matt and Tim need to continue to progress, but probably not to sub 3.00 ERAs, for the Giants to have a great rotation.  If those two averaged a combined 3.00 ERA, we're in great shape.

My thinking might be skewed because I'm a Giants fan, but here it is; after Cain and Lincecum, the other starters are all slotted below where they'd be slotted on most teams.

Zito - While not an "ace", and yes he's paid like one,the Zito who emerged at the end is a legit #2 starter.  On this team, he's #3.

Lowry - He's our #4 starter, but any team most teams trading for him would expect him to be at least a #3, possible a #2.

Correia - I've gone on record (and rxmeister quoted me) as saying he'll be the premier #5 starter in the league next year. In an era where most teams struggle just to fill the roll with someone competent, Correia showed in those six starts both consistency and near-dominance that would project him much higher in a typical rotation.

so if Cain and Tim emerge as we expect, we've got two aces, a #2, and two #3s.  Not a weak link in the bunch.

Barack Obama: 1-1

by Goofus on Jan 17, 2008 11:13 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

Re: Apologies for the baseball content....
Zito - His strike out have gone down and his walks have gone up every single year since his 2002 Cy Young win.  In all reality, he'll have worse numbers this year then last, and on top of that he never shows up until May. At this point he's probably edging on a number three starter.  What really scares me about his contract, is he'll be getting pain 18 million a year to put up number three starter numbers when Cain and Lincicum's contracts are up, making signing them very hard if they turn into the players we want them to.

If other teams thought Lowry could be a number two starter Sabian would have gotten better offers for him.  We all thought Lowry was going to be something special his rookie year, but it seems the league has cought up with him.  Thinking he'll put up #2 starter numbers, or even #3 starter numbers, might be deluding yourself at this point.

The Giants will have a very good rotation, but Zito and Lowry have too many unanswered question to call this a solid rotation.

by Threepwood on Jan 17, 2008 2:42 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Apologies for the baseball content....
Zito's contract is the 2nd most beaten dead horse around these parts (behind the Pierzynski trade).

The contract is what it is.  Worrying about it now will just give you heartburn.

As for Zito's results last year, I wouldn't be optimistic if he hadn't improved so much as the season progressed.  His ERA was around 3.40 in the last two months of the season and his WHIP was 1.28, much more in line with his career line. During that time, his K/BB was 50/35.

Barack Obama: 1-1

by Goofus on Jan 17, 2008 2:57 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Apologies for the baseball content....
"What really scares me about his contract, is he'll be getting pain 18 million a year to put up number three starter numbers when Cain and Lincicum's contracts are up, making signing them very hard if they turn into the players we want them to."

I don't think that's a huge worry. Zito's contract is up after 6 seasons, whereas Lincecum hits free agency after 6 seasons & so Zito's contract shouldn't have any impact on the prospect of re-signing Lincecum when he hits free agency. When Cain is up for free agency, Zito's deal will only have 2 years left on it & so i don't think it'll be as big an issue as it seems today.

The problem is more a case of wishing we could spend those dollars elsewhere (namely on the offense) whilst we have Cain & Lincecum in their cheaper years.

by GiantFan on Jan 22, 2008 3:13 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Apologies for the baseball content....
If you let them get to the point of hitting FA it tends to be too late to stop them from going. The Giants should begin talking about a long term contract with Cain after the this season and really need to be getting something done before the 2010 season begins At that point Zito will be right in the middle of his contract and it seems a reasonable benchmark for Cain's agent to use in negotiations.
My boy ain't fat, he's just big boned. Big bat, too.

by Roger on Jan 22, 2008 10:45 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Apologies for the baseball content....
True, i'm not saying we should wait until they hit free agency before we try to extend them, i agree & think it's good practice to lock up young players early. I'm not sure when they'll talk with Cain about an extension, especially as he has a contract until he hits free agency, but i'd imagine next offseason would be a good time to start discussions.

I was just commenting that neither pitcher should be too expensive that there's an issue with affording them, until after they hit there free agency years, irrespective of when they sign their contract. Zito's contract may be a benchmark, although he reached free agency, but there's also lots of other benchmark contracts to use.

by GiantFan on Jan 23, 2008 3:54 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Apologies for the baseball content....
Wow! Consistency in six games, no doubt qualifies for the Giants Pitchers HOF.
yankeefan "If I had played my career hitting singles like Pete (Rose), I'd wear a dress." Mickey Mantle

by yankeefan57 on Jan 18, 2008 8:30 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Apologies for the baseball content....
My suspicion, based on past history, is that Zito will have his usualy cold start followed by his usual mid/late season resurgence.  While it will be nice if that isn't true, I'm going to be more surprised if he starts really hot than if he starts really cold.  Again, just based on history.

But I certainly like the 1-2 punch of our lineup, I think Cain's September is a sign of very good things to come.  And if Correia can do what he just did at the end of the year, we could have a very strong #3 starter from a very unlikely place.

"He called the sh** POOP!" -- Adam Sandler

by JRPhillips on Jan 17, 2008 11:18 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

5th place
My 2008 NL West Winter Rankings are out via my simulator that takes ZIPS projections as it's input.  Looks like a dead heat between the Padres and DBacks, with the Dodgers nipping out their heals.  A drop off down to the Rockies and then lookout below...
vr, Xei

by Xeifrank on Jan 17, 2008 11:36 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

Re: 5th place
Yeay, it's the pissboy!
***

Succumb to the Enchanted t-shirt! Adopted dad of Minor Izzy

by hairball on Jan 17, 2008 11:51 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: 5th place
"History of the World Part I"  reference? Yes!!

by daveinexile on Jan 17, 2008 12:07 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: 5th place
The best part of that link was the comment.

by marklar on Jan 17, 2008 4:08 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: 5th place
Oh yeah, Larry.  The Rockie fan not happy with his 4th place prediction. :)
vr, Xei

by Xeifrank on Jan 17, 2008 4:26 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: 5th place
...and his reference to last years prediction.

by marklar on Jan 17, 2008 4:40 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: 5th place
The simulation uses ZIPS, so whatever ZIPS says is what you tend to get.  Not too many people outside of Colorado had the Rockies pegged higher than 4th place.  The Rockies were actually in 4th place until that crazy 21 out of 22 streak they went on.  It did well on all of the other NL West teams.  Heck, the sim correctly predicted the World Series winner before the season started last year.  Sure, the Red Sox were a good team, but most people weren't picking them to win it all last year.  It picked the Giants 4th place last year (2/13/07) and they came in 5th.  Good luck to both teams.
vr, Xei

by Xeifrank on Jan 17, 2008 5:13 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: 5th place
Just jerking your chain a little bit.

To be honest, I don't think too many people in Colorado really believed they would make the playoffs either. At least not if they were being truthful with themselves.

by marklar on Jan 17, 2008 6:05 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: 5th place
Wow, you needed a simulator to predict the Giants finish room.

by zenbitz on Jan 18, 2008 7:26 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: The Rockies
I would say Jimenez makes a good 1-2 partner with Francis.

Cook:  116 ERA+
Francis: 114 ERA+
Jimenez:  112ERA+
Morales:  140 ERA+ (only 8 starts)

Cain:  122 ERA+
Lowry: 113 ERA+
Lincecum:  111 ERA+
Zito:  98 ERA+

Hate to say it, but the Rox aren't as far behind as it seems.  Sure, they won't win any CYs or post any sub 3.00 ERAs, but for their park, they might be as good as any other NL West team.

by chefasaurus on Jan 17, 2008 11:36 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

Re: The Rockies
I agree. I think their pitching has more upside than the Padres or the Dodgers.

by NearestNorwich on Jan 17, 2008 5:40 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Apologies for the baseball content....
All of this is silly, strikeouts dont prove you are a better pitcher. OUTS are the goal.  Check out greg maddux, tom glavine, and even our own Kirk Reuter and Mark Gardner to an extent (although he was prone to crappy 1st innings and unannounced bouts with mediocrity). its ok for the hitters to make contact.  When a pitcher tries to keep them from doing so, instead of just making good pitches, he overthrows and walks the world (Lowry, Zito, half the minor leagues).  Its what Krukow, who is officially off his rocker, and many others refer to as the difference between pitching and throwing.  the whole world isnt fantasy sports, even if strikeouts look cool.  
Don't believe me? watch Bull Durham, and don't shake me off, meat.

by The Wind Cries Omar on Jan 17, 2008 3:23 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Re: Apologies for the baseball content....
I'm with you on the strikeouts. It isn't the lack of strikeouts, it's a lot of walks that's the problem with some pitchers. If you don't walk guys it doesn't matter how you get them out. There are plenty of pitchers in the HOF that didn't strike out a lot of hitters.

by marklar on Jan 17, 2008 3:46 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Apologies for the baseball content....
The main special thing about strikeouts is that in young pitchers with a lot of strikeouts tend to have longer careers. In older pitchers the number of strikeouts are less important.

But it is just a trend. There are a few pitchers who defy it. I wouldn't coount either Gardner or Rueter as such because neither had particularly long careers

Greg maddux is NOT an example of a low strikout pitcher. He used to strike a ton of people out, and he's always maintained a specacular K/BB rate. Dude is 11th in career strikeouts.

Glavine's a better example, but even he had above average strikeout stuff in his youth.

Tommy John is really the best counter example to this trend.

there is no pain greater than being behind the Rockies in the standings

by oldjacket on Jan 17, 2008 6:23 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Apologies for the baseball content....
One more thing:
The same is true of hitting: if all you do is try to hit homeruns, you ground out and strike out a lot.  Don't believe me, check out Pedro Feliz and  even Rickey Henderson in the years he tried to yank everything.  THIS IS WHY CARNEY LANSFORD IS THE GIANTS' NEW HITTING COACH. He hit the ball the other way and didn't try to pull everything.  If you don't believe either of these posts its because you haven't played baseball, you just read stats on the internet and get ready for next year's fantasy season.

by The Wind Cries Omar on Jan 17, 2008 3:27 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Re: Apologies for the baseball content....
The "haven't played baseball" card is lame. If you're making good points, which we both know you are, please don't top them off with something like that. If you're a remotely conceptually astute person, you don't even have to watch baseball to understand these explanations. Because if you have a strong conceptual knowledge of the sport, this stuff makes sense.

Sorry, just sticking up for the "Never played baseball as long as you don't count very rare recreational play or standing in right field for a month or two in fourth grade as playing, or less" ones of us around here. Which would be me.

He is Vengeance. He is the Knight. He is Dave Righetti. PRAY TO HIM! / Also, my blog. For writers.

by howtheyscored on Jan 17, 2008 3:44 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Apologies for the baseball content....
The mistake you have made, which was by no means astute, relates to probelms with endogeneity and "the direction of causality," as it is often referred to in the literature.  check it out.  

Not only have I played baseball, I posess above average writing ability and high level acuity, allowing me to make subjective inferences after simple observation without the aid of statistics.

That said, pitchers who walk a lot of guys usually have trouble.  

by The Wind Cries Omar on Jan 17, 2008 4:23 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Apologies for the baseball content....
Can you play CF?
Nattowear | comics | Durham? I hardly know 'im!

by Natto on Jan 17, 2008 4:33 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Apologies for the baseball content....
Sorry, but i pitch, i don't hit.  If they need to get a ground ball in a tight spot though, I'd be willing to listen to offers.

by The Wind Cries Omar on Jan 17, 2008 4:36 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Conceptualize This
Can you pitch Scott Munter over a distant fence?

by Moggeee on Jan 18, 2008 2:09 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Apologies for the baseball content....
"Not only have I played baseball, I posess above average writing ability and high level acuity, allowing me to make subjective inferences after simple observation without the aid of statistics."

If you're like this in person, I'm pretty certain you've had plenty of time to hone all three skills at the expense of developing any inter-personal skills.

Barack Obama: 1-1

by Goofus on Jan 17, 2008 5:06 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Apologies for the baseball content....
come on now, dont be a goofus.
how could i come up with this shit if i couldn't talk well? All i did was respond to the arguments made against me.  And if you read the other posts i made, i can talk with anyone, even justinohan, who makes great points and should be commended for his commitment to the home nine.
GO GIANTS

by The Wind Cries Omar on Jan 17, 2008 5:21 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Apologies for the baseball content....
Wow, this ran out of hand since I stopped refreshing and started playing Paper Mario and the Thousand Year Door earlier today. To tell the truth, though, I actually wasn't arguing against you. I said as much when I said that the points you were making were good. I just didn't care that you weakened the strength of everything good you were saying by making such a frustrating claim as your cherry on top. A claim that was bound to be taken as an insult by people who don't play baseball but feel that their knowledge of the game shouldn't be spit on because of it.

I mean, come on, we both know that sentence as written was lame, and vaguely inflammatory to boot. We also both know that it wasn't necessary to anything you were trying to get across.

Sorry for bringing it up against you, but it's like the third or fourth time in the last month or so here where I've seen the first line of defense for an opinion be "Try playing baseball" and it just seems like the weirdest, least productive kind of thing I'm not used to seeing out here.

He is Vengeance. He is the Knight. He is Dave Righetti. PRAY TO HIM! / Also, my blog. For writers.

by howtheyscored on Jan 17, 2008 7:41 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Apologies for the baseball content....
Out of hand isn't nearly strong enough for the personal attacks I have suffered today.  

But this shouldn't be about me.  I want to make a deep apology to my man howtheyscored and anyone else I my have offended. The least exciting off season in recent history is wearing on me, and I tried to stir up the pot a bit.  I was more successful than I could have hoped.  My responses were very sarcastic and not a one was made without some deep chuckles.  

That said, I agree that the last sentence in my real opinion was useless and caused quite a bit of trouble.  Lotsa people that don't play sports know a ton about em, like John Clayton and Dickie V (BABY). My point was that just like the backlash we all saw this afternoon, citing arcane stats gets pretty out of hand.  I mean come on, a baseball simulator?  I could tell you how i did with the Giants on All-Star Baseball 2000 for N64, but that wouldn't add much either.

So sorry to all.  If you're a Giants fan then it's cool.  Just know that I was kidding and trying to get a rise out of folks.  All I'm saying is that you can tell more about how a player plays than what his stats might tell you.

by The Wind Cries Omar on Jan 17, 2008 8:35 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Apologies for the baseball content....
Well, no hard feelings on my part. And you wouldn't be the first person to take offense to the Blue Devil, Xiefrank and his magical simulation machine of Giants Death.
He is Vengeance. He is the Knight. He is Dave Righetti. PRAY TO HIM! / Also, my blog. For writers.

by howtheyscored on Jan 17, 2008 8:56 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Apologies for the baseball content....
If you're so smart, then why didn't you hyphenate the compound modifier "high-level acuity"? I think you'll also find that any sentence that begins with "not only" is supposed to include "but also."

Then again, I don't possess "high level acuity." Jerk.

by Dan from NM on Jan 17, 2008 5:26 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Apologies for the baseball content....
dont hate me cuz u aint me

by The Wind Cries Omar on Jan 17, 2008 5:34 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Apologies for the baseball content....
I was thinking of just that same strange series of events.
He is Vengeance. He is the Knight. He is Dave Righetti. PRAY TO HIM! / Also, my blog. For writers.

by howtheyscored on Jan 17, 2008 7:43 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Apologies for the baseball content....
wait wait, you play baseball AND you know hella book stuff too? That's sweet. Usually you got one but not the other. Props, dude. Other people that comment here suck, huh?

Anyway i just wanted to say that I agree with everything you said. I don't play baseball though... just a little basketball, hope that counts for something. Hey, what does endogeneity mean? sorry.

by khasson on Jan 17, 2008 5:54 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Apologies for the baseball content....
How do you have time to post here in between your jobs at The New York Times and playing for a major league team?

by sakbaum on Jan 18, 2008 8:49 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Apologies for the baseball content....
Seriously, what's the statute of limitations with the whole YOU DONT KNOW YOU NEVER PLAYED BASEBALL I PLAYED BASEBALL-thing? I played until I was a junior in high school. Does that count? I sucked in my last year, but I used to be okay. Am I "in?"

Stoned Slacker used to umpire my games. Can he vouch that I used to be okay? Would he count as an independent arbiter, or would we have to go to Stoned Slacker, Sr., who also umped my games, but would be more impartial?

How can I prove my legitimacy? The fate of the blog depends on it, as it's obvious that I'm killing its reputation with all of my crazy-thick stat posts. My proprietary stat McCqEV+ hasn't even been introduced yet, but I think I'm gonna junk it.

by Grant on Jan 17, 2008 8:07 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Apologies for the baseball content....
Yeah I honestly don't get it.

I certainly don't think you need to have played baseball to realize that Pfz's hitting technique sucks.

In fact, I was watching a diamondbacks-giants game last year while my Mom's friend from South Africa was visiting. After roughly his first five innings of EVER watching baseball, we both watched Pedro flail at one in the dirt. He turned and asked me "How come he's the only one on either team that tries to hit the ball on the bounce?"

there is no pain greater than being behind the Rockies in the standings

by oldjacket on Jan 18, 2008 6:51 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Apologies for the baseball content....
This makes me happy.
He is Vengeance. He is the Knight. He is Dave Righetti. PRAY TO HIM! / Also, my blog. For writers.

by howtheyscored on Jan 18, 2008 12:05 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Apologies for the baseball content....
well, if you get what i was sayin, then you aren't who i was addressing. not everyone who never played baseball misses the points i made, but i would guess the vast majority of those who don't get what i meant have little to no baseball playing experience.

by The Wind Cries Omar on Jan 17, 2008 3:53 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Re: Apologies for the baseball content....
and thats real talk

by The Wind Cries Omar on Jan 17, 2008 3:54 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Apologies for the baseball content....
So, your theory is that the people who disagree with you have this thought process:

"Wrong wrong wrong.  Wait, he's accusing me of never playing baseball...I didn't play baseball!  Never mind!  This changes my opinion entirely!"

Steve Kline: How okay is he, really? I would say he is pretty okay.

by groug on Jan 17, 2008 3:57 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Apologies for the baseball content....
your welcome.

I be bringin street game to the geeks, mayn.

by The Wind Cries Omar on Jan 17, 2008 4:15 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Apologies for the baseball content....
fo sho blood.. keep breakin off that knowledge

by justinohan on Jan 17, 2008 4:28 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Apologies for the baseball content....
The problem here seems to be that you are a slimy, arrogant git who was never taught any relationship skills.  

Most people around here have played baseball; and regardless, you don't need to play to understand the game.  I have played for 11 years now, will be the opening day starter for my Varsity team this year and I still don't know half as much about baseball as some of the folks on this site (Kenshin, Baron, jponry, Howie, thehavenot, dan).  It is a game most easily analyzed and quantified.  Frankly, that's what makes it so great.

What I do know about pitching is that you can get away with pitching to contact at lower levels, but to give yourself the best probability of success (100% out percentage) K's are the way to go.

Pedro Feliz: Marginally better this year.

by SloIsLonelyForTheOrange on Jan 17, 2008 5:41 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Apologies for the baseball content....
If you're going to be hard on Noah's declining K rate and Zito's first season (which, regardless of the price tag, was not a complete disaster), I'd recommend using the same cynical eye towards the other teams in this discussion.

Arizona doesn't excite me beyond the first two.  Doug Davis?  I'll take Noah over 2 baserunners per inning.  Randy Johnson? "IF" is such an expensive, foolhearty word.  He isn't who he was.  Even if healthy, he can't be.  Stop fearing him.  Micah Owings?  The erection one gets seeing him hit better than anyone in the Giants lineup doesn't make him more than a #4 pitcher at best.  He was never consistent last year.  You don't become consistent during an offseason, it happens over time.

And I have to watch San Diego 162 times a year, as its part of my job.  Peavy is Peavy (though in a big game, take the other guy).  Young is phenomenal in PETCO Park for sure.  On the road?  Good numbers against brutal lineups at least open the discussion as to whether he is overrated (if he can ever last a full season without getting injured).  Maddux (likened to have Josh Towers stuff but without the 2-cent brain) would be a #6 starter on most AL staffs.  He was either very good (read: they hit em where they were) or awful (read: he wasn't facing the Giants, Pirates, Astros, etc.).  And while Randy Wolf is a good gamble, he was last year for the Dodgers too, and we saw how that turned out.

Sometimes, these pitchers really are what we thought they were.  So while it gets your rocks off to rip our own Giants to protect ourselves from the disappointment of not meeting expectations, it's also silly to pump up the opponents based on fear that they will crush us.

I'll take the Giants starters in 08, thanks.

by mlb22 on Jan 17, 2008 4:13 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Re: Apologies for the baseball content....
I agree with some of your sentiments.

However, San Diego has a phenomenal rotation, no questions, and Arizona has two better ones up front and matches fir the rest of our rotation.

Also, did anyone else get the chills when he said consistent in two consecutive sentences?

I'll take the Giants starters in '09 '10 maybe, but '08?  I'll take AZ and SD over ours.

Pedro Feliz: Marginally better this year.

by SloIsLonelyForTheOrange on Jan 17, 2008 5:45 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Apologies for the baseball content....
I'm with you 100% on the years. No matter how good a pitcher's stuff is it takes time to learn how to pitch in the bigs. I heard Krukow the other day say it takes 4-5 years to truly learn how to pitch. He said that a great fastball or change-up is just raw talent and it takes more than that to get big league hitters out on a consistent* basis.

While I love our rotation, most of the guys in it are not going to reach their potential for 2-3 years. I look forward to watching them develop but there are still going to be unfortunate moments we will have to live through.

*I tried to say it twice too, but I'm just not that good.

by marklar on Jan 17, 2008 6:24 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Apologies for the baseball content....
"However, San Diego has a phenomenal rotation, no questions," - I think it was pretty clear that I just raised them.

I'll buy that Arizona's top 2 are better than ours, but I won't buy that their back 3 come even close to ours.

[Diff between ARI 1-2 and SF 1-2] <<
[Diff between SF 3-5 and ARI 3-5]

Disagreeing with me is cool but I don't see what you're basing your argument on, other than just saying SD and ARI are better.

And please don't use W-L record.  I think all us Giants fans can agree that SF will lose that battle.

by mlb22 on Jan 17, 2008 6:26 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Apologies for the baseball content....
sorrryyy.  i was trying to fire off a response too quickly.

Arizona:

Brandon Webb/Dan Haren: better than Lincecum/Cain for now.

Micah Owings, in his first season pitched 150 innings 109 ERA+ with a 1.28 WHIP.  K/BB ratio is 2:1 in his first year pitching.  that is very very good.  He should get better.

He's about average at worst I believe and should turn in about the same or better than Zito, unless he turns his career around.

Doug Davis and Noah Lowry are a wash.  They're pretty much the same pitcher.

As for the fifth, I think we have another wash.  Correia/Hennessy/Sanchez/whoever versus RJ/Billy Buckner/Dustin Nippert.  I think this is kind of an unpredictable position but, ultimately I think both teams have about the same chance for success.

As for SD, Maddux, Wolf and Prior are a riskier but better bet than Zito, Lowry, COrreia/sanchez/Hennessey

Pedro Feliz: Marginally better this year.

by SloIsLonelyForTheOrange on Jan 17, 2008 6:48 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Apologies for the baseball content....
I like Owings but, we'll see.  As much as I've seen Davis and Lowry each pitch, I don't get ulceritis when Lowry pitches like an Arizona fan does with Davis and his walks.

While each feature similar numbers, here's one that sticks out to me, despite Noah's increase in walks last year:

Lowry's WHIP last two years:
1.39 & 1.55

Davis? 1.52 & 1.59

If Lowry's closer to the 1.55 than the 1.39 and 2007 wasn't an abberation, then yeah, they're a lot closer.  Davis (speaking of declining K rates) is what he is.  And I'd rather have Noah not missingbats at the Phone Booth than Davis underhanding em at the Bank.

On the Pads starters that you mentioned:

Prior may not pitch til June, and Wolf MAY not be ready for opening day.  Between the two, there could be a lot of Stauffer/Germano/other crap starts.  But I think we can both agree its impossible to compare 5th starters, because really, there if a 5th starter were good enough to make every start, he wouldn't be a fifth starter.

All this said, I'm still comfortable with the orange and black.

by mlb22 on Jan 17, 2008 7:54 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Apologies for the baseball content....
Lowry made my stomach hurt a lot last year. There were times when it would take him ten fastballs to hit the strike zone.

Still, I do feel like this the year when the same disease that got Rueter at the end of his career claims Davis. Just a hunch.

there is no pain greater than being behind the Rockies in the standings

by oldjacket on Jan 17, 2008 8:36 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Apologies for the baseball content....
1.) Padres. Young-Peavy is a hell of a start.
2.) Giants. I'm feeling optimistic and drunk.
3.) D-Backs. Doug Davis?
3.) Dodgers. I'm depressed.
5.) Rockies. Blah blah.

by Dan from NM on Jan 17, 2008 6:52 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

The Answers, My Friend, are Blowin' in the Breeze
After much deliberation, Dan plants the Giants at No. 2.

The Wind Cries WTF??

by Moggeee on Jan 18, 2008 2:23 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Apologies for the baseball content....
Here's a fun exercise:

Subjective Staff Rankings for 2008
#1's: 1.Peavy 2.Webb 3.Francis 4.Penny 5.Zito
#2's: 1.Haren 2.Cain 3.Young 4.Lowe 5.Cook
#3's: 1.Billinglsey 2.Lincecum 3.Jimenez 4.Maddux
      5.Davis
#4's: 1.Owings 2.Morales 3.Wolf 4.Lowry 5.Kuroda
#5's: 1.Correia 2.Johnson 3. Loaiza 4.Prior
      5.Hirsh

You may now take issue with these rankings.

there is no pain greater than being behind the Rockies in the standings

by oldjacket on Jan 17, 2008 9:03 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Re: Apologies for the baseball content....
Billingsley over Lincecum?  I own both in my keeper league and watch most of their starts.  For me this isn't even a fair comparison.  I think Billingsley will be a fine pitcher, but he is not in Lincecum's league.

by W8ingForATitle on Jan 18, 2008 11:12 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Apologies for the baseball content....
I thought this one was extremely close.

They had pretty similar seasons, last year and at this point Billingsley has better control.

Over the whole career I would prefer Timmy, but this next year I expect Billinglsey to outperform him.

Jimenez is no slouch either!

there is no pain greater than being behind the Rockies in the standings

by oldjacket on Jan 18, 2008 8:24 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Apologies for the baseball content....
I don't think of Zito as our #1.
Register to vote in the 2/5 primaries by Monday 1/21! http://www.sos.ca.gov/elections/elections_vr.htm

by Goofus on Jan 18, 2008 12:04 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Apologies for the baseball content....
Me neither. i was just using MLB.com's depth charts.
there is no pain greater than being behind the Rockies in the standings

by oldjacket on Jan 18, 2008 12:24 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Apologies for the baseball content....
He usually makes me think of #2.
Nattowear | comics | Durham? I hardly know 'im!

by Natto on Jan 18, 2008 12:59 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Apologies for the baseball content....
I like this approach. Let's do it again just before Opening Day. I'd take Cain over Haren at the moment, although Haren will win more because of his supporting cast. I don't think Wolf has that much left and until I see something from Prior I'd put Hirsch ahead of him. But this really drives home how great the pitching is in this division, at least on paper.

by NearestNorwich on Jan 18, 2008 7:37 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Apologies for the baseball content....
I don't know if I can put my finger on why, but I am not a Jason Hirsch believer.
there is no pain greater than being behind the Rockies in the standings

by oldjacket on Jan 18, 2008 8:25 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Apologies for the baseball content....
Let's not forget Pedro Feliz. He's got a good arm. I think he's our new closer. Pedro is the answer to everything.

Pedro Feliz in '08.

by GaryEdmundCarter on Jan 18, 2008 11:27 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

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