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756

Everyone here has seen the clips of Hank Aaron lifting one into the Atlanta bullpen, running around the bases, and being joined by two immortal long-hairs while rounding second. It's baseball. It's a clip you'd loop and put on a space shuttle's video screen to explain American sports to aliens. It's a clip you'd see before Mel Allen dug out his T.W.I.B. Notes. It's a clip you'd see in random places - in a movie, a ballpark scoreboard, or a different ballpark scoreboard. Alright, so maybe it didn't pop up in too many different places, but everyone knows the clip. If you didn't watch it happen, you grew up watching the replay your entire life.

So that's why it's so surreal that Barry Bonds broke the home run record. Barry Bonds. The guy who's been on the Giants for the past 14-plus seasons. Every one of the home runs added up to the record-breaker. Surreal. The home run off of Kirt Ojala was a part of last night. The showdowns with Curt Schilling and Randy Johnson were a part of last night. Bonds hit them into the upper deck of Candlestick. He hit them into the waters of McCovey Cove. They all added up to last night. Surreal.

There's a 99.9% chance of extreme punditing today, followed by violent gusts of bloviation. That's a shame. The debates are tired. Every baseball fan should have had one tiny part of their brain telling them to enjoy last night. The dude has hit more home runs than anyone who has played the game. Soak it up. Enjoy it.

The transition from child to adult is punctuated by a series of benchmarks. You turn 16, and you get the freedom to drive. You turn 18, and you officially become an adult. You turn 21, and you get the freedom to drink alcohol. Each subsequent age...not so much. Your cells start dying. Your body breaks down. Is that a gray hair? One more breath `til death...one more breath `til death...one more breath `til death. My god, is it hot in here? The walls are closing in! The walls are closing in!

That's the best way to describe the Giants of this season and future seasons. The beginning of the season was for the 16-year-old in us; with that much freedom, anything could happen. Heck, the Cardinals lucked their way into a World Series ring. Why not us? We have super-ace Barry Zito, and Rich Aurilia's going to hit .300 again, and Ray Durham's second-half power was for real, and.... We could have gone anywhere.

The All-Star Game was for the 18-year-old in us; it was more of a formality, but danged if it didn't mean something. It turned out to be something worth anticipating. It was as if Mays Field was making the transition from a new park to a classic park in front of us, and it was as exciting as all get out. We also got to vote Barry Bonds into the game. That doesn't really have anything to do with the metaphor, but it would have been weak to mention turning 18 without a gratuitous voting reference.

This home run was the 21st-birthday of our 2007 Giants fandom. Pandemonium. Breathless recounting of the story to anyone who would listen the next day. Good memories. Good...less-than-memories. Things happened quickly, even though it took so long to get to that point. It will only happen once, and it was amazing.

When the September call-ups come up, that'll be like turning 25 and being able to rent a car, or something.

After that: A slow decline into adult diapers. Actually, it'll probably be real quick. Actually, there is some fantastic incontinence going on right now if you'd care to pay attention. Would you like to pay atte....no? I don't blame you. Welcome to the rest of your life, or, at least, the rest of your franchise's extended period of misfortune.

For right now, though, let's keep the lampshade on our collective head for as long as we can. Congratulations, Barry. Congratulations, Giants fans. Congratulations, baseball.

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Re: 756
You know what's kind of surreal for me?  For the first time in my lifetime, the single season HR King and the all-time HR King are the same guy.  There is no equivocation about who the King is.

by achiappanza on Aug 8, 2007 10:22 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Re: 756
Glad to see the thread, Grant. I looked late last night and didn't see one dedicated to congratulating Barry on his amazing feat, so I tried to start one of my own. Now, that you've started an "official" thread, let me add my congratulations to Barry for all the years and all of the unbelievable effort it took to reach 756. I loved it all.

by Sayhey on Aug 8, 2007 10:23 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Re: 756
your words, they have meaning...and stuff.

by Mark carry on on Aug 8, 2007 10:26 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Re: 756
i was listening to the press conference on knbr. i missed a question in which barry said "Give me a break pedro, that's the only thing that comes out of your vocal chords."  does anyone know what the question was from pedro gomez?
"If I can change and you can change, then everybody can change." Rocky Balboa, Rocky IV

by WithTechron on Aug 8, 2007 10:30 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Re: 756
I don't know, but I just read these pearls of muddleheadedness from Gomez over at ESPN:
[...]that doesn't mean fans -- both outside and inside the game -- have to recognize Bonds' spot above Hank Aaron. The beauty baseball has always maintained over other sports is accountability in the fans' perspective. You can trust your eyes in baseball.

Okay, fair enough - the fans know what they know. Fans rule, dude!

Whether baseball or its fans want to admit it, these last 15 years will forever be viewed as the steroids era.

Uhh, wait...so the fans' perspective counts, but only as long as they agree with Pedro Gomez, apparently.

Proud adoptive father of the All-Father and his 2.29 ERA

by EliminateMe on Aug 8, 2007 10:56 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: 756
Lol, that's hilarious.  Way to contradict yourself completely in two sentences Pedro.

by ololo3 on Aug 8, 2007 10:59 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: 756
typical tagline-driven journalism. If the people agree with the media template than they are right and wise, but they need constant reminders as to what the correct viewpoints are from the media. When they don't agree with the storyline, they're sheep or ostriches.
Congrats, Barry. You're the best there ever was in this game.

by nostocksjustbonds on Aug 8, 2007 11:06 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: 756
Remember, it's the sports media's job to tell us what to think, and preferably to keep the concepts to short simple sound bites.  Because, y'know, we're all too damned stupid to consider the bigger picture and think for ourselves.

by Skaldheim on Aug 8, 2007 11:38 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: 756
My favorite:
A pitcher who is throwing 88 mph at the end of one season and is magically hitting 98 on the gun the next spring? That's just not humanly possible, at least not without some form of help.
So...which pitcher are you talking about? Because that never happened, Pedro. Never. A couple miles? Some increased endurance? Sure. But that is the worst piece of fictitious anecdotal evidence I've read...today.

by Grant on Aug 8, 2007 11:14 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: 756
I think he's talking about the time when Kirk Reuter had his name legally changed to Randy Johnson.
Proud adoptive father of the All-Father and his 2.29 ERA

by EliminateMe on Aug 8, 2007 11:20 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: 756
remember that one season when Mulder was mid 90's?
and then...never again.

by Mark carry on on Aug 8, 2007 11:38 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: 756
Gomez was really showing his contempt for Barry last night. Bonds showed a lot of class by not jumping out of his seat and beating the crap out him. what restraint!
Congrats, Barry. You're the best there ever was in this game.

by nostocksjustbonds on Aug 8, 2007 11:15 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: 756
Pedro Gomez is a douche bag. Hopefully he just goes away after this. I would love it if ESPN canned his ass because: "the role you served here really doesn't exist anymore."
I adopted Barry Bonds

by BondsApologist on Aug 8, 2007 11:17 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: 756
I love how "trust your eyes" doesn't apply watching 754 baseballs fly out of the yard (2 inside the parkers). That's what I've seen (not literally). Somehow "trust your eyes" only applies to allegations, speculation and subjective judgments.

I love how the first example of trusting his eyes is "An error is an error" - often one of the most subjective scoring decisions in all of baseball!  How about "a strike is a strike" or "an out is an out" or a "catch is a catch." those are all clearcut situations. What a retard!

And Bonds went from a career high in homers 49 to 73, and increase in 24. Pedro obviously didn't see Luis Gonzalez hitting 57 bombs in the same year, and increase of 26 over his previous career high of 31 the previous season (the only other season in his career with over 30 homers)? Was Gonzo on roids? Is that Gomez is saying? I seriously doubt it. What about Davey Johnson? The guy never hit more than 18 homers in any season and in 1973 at age 30 he busts out with 43 homers! He was obviously a steroid user because there's no possible explanation for such a dramatic increase in homerun production other than drug use. Apparently, trusting one's eyes is fairly subjective.

This guy is a complete and utter joke and the punchline is that he still has a job and ESPN loses more credibility by continuing to pay this clown than it does for airing the inane and contemptible "Who's Now?" segments.

Congrats, Barry. You're the best there ever was in this game.

by nostocksjustbonds on Aug 8, 2007 11:50 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: 756
Plus freakin' one, yo.

On the other hand...

+756

by UnleashTheGore on Aug 8, 2007 11:53 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: 756
Well obviously I can tell with my eyes that Maris' 61 homers in '61 (22 more than his second best season and more than 1/5th of his career total) must have been totally 'roid driven.

by Roger on Aug 8, 2007 12:57 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

good post

I read "Baseball Between the Numbers" by the Baseball Prospectus people.  

They had an interesting analysis in there of historical "power surges".  They defined a power surge by established veteran players with at least 4 or 5 complete seasons and at least 28 years old who suddenly increased their HR numbers (equalized for complete seasons) by 10 or more a year.

They ran those numbers for all of MLB history and showed that the "steroid era" (90s, 00s) did have the highest prevalence of power surges, but that, when you factor out the effect of the ballparks (smaller ballparks now) the era with the most power surges was the 70s.

Anyone else read that book?  Interesting stuff.

by Roadie on Aug 8, 2007 1:34 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Questions 67 and 68
I remember that...response. (I've had about three hours' sleep , my PC and TV have not.)
  The mo' asinine question was what would he like to say to Greg Anderson. I was certain that would elicit an eruptive response given the moment - but no , Barry was cool as a ...well , I can't bring myself to name that hated veggie right now. But he was cool. Came back with something like "Why is that part of the conversation?"
  And I REALLY enjoyed his reply to Erin Andrews' question as to what was next for him: "A lot more baseball."
Barry Zito: Not an embarrassment of riches , but a rich embarrassment.

by victor frankenstein on Aug 8, 2007 10:58 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: 756
In the press conference, Pedro asked Barry about the "controversy" surrounding this achievement.  Barry said "Oh, Pedro, it's always about controversy with you, that's all that comes out of your vocal chords".

Something like that.  It was gold at the time.  In fact the whole press conference was gold.  If I could get it off my dvr I would put it on youtube.

I need old crusty vets like I need a nail driven into my brain.

by BawLa on Aug 8, 2007 11:07 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: 756
"Fantastic incontinence" may be the best descriptor of the Giants' season that I have yet read.
Fool me seven times, shame on you. Fool me eight or more times, shame on me.

by Bhaakon on Aug 8, 2007 10:32 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Re: 756
I loved turning 30!  Or as I call it, "The Age of Perfection."  Not that I'm perfect, just that 30 is the perfect age (screw you 20-year-olds!).

So y'all catch each and every article written by the r-tards at NESPN and SI.com?  Yes, even LA writers are capable of giving Bonds his due credit.  But the talking heads back east can only talk about how they hate Barry, sucking the life and soul out of any form of enjoyment the rest of us might possibly have had in this moment.

Thank goodness for MLB.com!

"The Lincoln assassination just recently became funny. 'I need to see this play like I need a hole in my head'."

by JRPhillips on Aug 8, 2007 10:34 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Re: 756
Quite a moment, quite an evening.  

Hey Grant,
Howie, The Mayor and I were kidding last night when we said your lame analogy (16, 18, 21, etc.) idea sounded good.  Can't believe you didn't detect the sarcasm. :-)

(Still hungover from the drunken euphoria of turning 21 last night.)

Bold Prediction: Klesko will finish the 2007 season with at least 20 HRs. (OPS+ is 129 as of 7/1/07)

by Goofus on Aug 8, 2007 10:35 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Re: 756
!

Nothing wrong with mine, though.

Coming to you by proxy (I adopted: Dave Righetti!)

by howtheyscored on Aug 8, 2007 10:38 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: 756
Congratulations Barry.
I adopted Barry Bonds

by BondsApologist on Aug 8, 2007 10:44 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Re: 756
What a night. I can't even be jealous about you guys being there.

I'm eager to see if there will be something tonight for Barry.

Strikeouts are boring. Besides that, they're fascist. Not boring: Emmanuel Burriss. Not facist: THE RETURN OF SF Dugout

by BaronVonCurrentEvents on Aug 8, 2007 10:47 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Re: 756
I was trying to figure out why you would put the chances of "extreme punditing" today at only 99.9%, but then I figured you were leaving the possibility of maybe an asteroid striking earth, or a nuclear war happening before the articles could all be written.

Still, though, 99.9% seems a bit low.

by ololo3 on Aug 8, 2007 10:49 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Re: 756
I was surprised the chances were only calculated to the nearest tenth. It's as if Grant doesn't know that all the best completely made up percentages are completely made up to the nearest hundredth!
Coming to you by proxy (I adopted: Dave Righetti!)

by howtheyscored on Aug 8, 2007 11:05 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: 756
xeifrank only had the odds at 74.3000000000%

Ha! Shows how much he knows!

by tobias on Aug 8, 2007 12:43 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: 756
Now that all the attention is off the team, I expect them to do a little better.  Hopefully we only have to suffer through the old vets for the rest of the waiver-laced month.  Getting a taste of the young kids is a bit of a harsh reality, but much more exciting than May and June.  I don't care if Rajai Davis slips near the warning track, I don't care if Frandsen grounds into a double play, I want to see these kids play and I want to see them regularly.  
I need old crusty vets like I need a nail driven into my brain.

by BawLa on Aug 8, 2007 10:53 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Re: 756
It also took attention off the steaming pile that was Barry Zito's night last night. Cripes. I could have hit him.
Tim Lincecum is the light and truth, and I will enjoy becoming pure energy when he determines it is time to ascend.

by HughG16 on Aug 8, 2007 11:13 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Re: 756
Last night was the first time I'd see a Zito game in-person since the start of the season.  I was quite comforted to hear the cascade of boos that descended upon him throughout the game.  If only Magowan knew several months ago that Giants fans do indeed recognize quality players when they see them and are not merely attracted to bright, shiny things.

by War on Aug 8, 2007 12:14 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: 756
Now Matt Morris can finally rest assured that the rest of the season will be about winning ball games.

by UnleashTheGore on Aug 8, 2007 11:29 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Re: 756
He could have watched Bonds break the biggest record in sport history if he just kept his mouth shut.or if he didn't suck.

Now when his grandchildren ask him where he was when it happened, he'll have to say: Pittsburgh.

by Cookyman on Aug 8, 2007 12:01 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: 756
Actually, if he kept his mouth shut and didn't suck he still wouldn't have seen it with his own eyes, but at least he might have seen it from a place that has a freaking chance.
Coming to you by proxy (I adopted: Dave Righetti!)

by howtheyscored on Aug 8, 2007 12:09 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: 756
By the way, LOL at Fox: They try to jump on the Bonds bandwagon by having this Saturday's Giants-Pirates game switched to a 12:55 start for broadcast. Now, not only won't they be broadcasting a record-breaking home run, but their Game of the  will be between two last-place teams -- and Bonds probably won't even play (day game after night game).

Eat it, ZelaskoBuckMcCarverBrennaman.

Lon Simmons' adopted dad.

by Kitspool on Aug 8, 2007 1:36 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

[Sorry I'm tired]
Game of the Week, I meant to write there.
Lon Simmons' adopted dad.

by Kitspool on Aug 8, 2007 1:38 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: [Sorry I'm tired]
I thought you meant Game of the Weak, which would've been just as appropriate.
Noonan. Nooooonan!

by Giant Fan in Singapore on Aug 8, 2007 7:19 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Keith Law gets it
Keith Law: "The home run king, period"

Barry Bonds is the new home run king, period. Record books should be free of moral judgments or other subjective criteria. Unless Major League Baseball intends to go back and invalidate some of Bonds' home runs, he'll have the highest total until someone else (whether it's Alex Rodriguez or Ken Griffey Jr. or someone else) breaks his record in turn.

Exactly. Question for the asterisk crowd: which homers of Barry's are invalid? Please provide dates, innings, locations.

Congrats, Barry. You're the best there ever was in this game.

by nostocksjustbonds on Aug 8, 2007 11:54 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Re: Keith Law gets it
Exactly, they'd rather just flash arbitrary numbers that turn out to be completely baseless when you question their validity.
I need old crusty vets like I need a nail driven into my brain.

by BawLa on Aug 8, 2007 2:14 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: 756
John Kruk actually showed a flash of intelligence yesterday evening, saying something to effect that Barry is the best hitter to ever play the game, and we can't say otherwise until evidence comes up otherwise. At that point we can turn back and disqualify that assertion but until then, he is the greatest hitter ever.

by UnleashTheGore on Aug 8, 2007 11:57 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Steve Philips is a moron
"...what I would have done is sit and clap."

take a stand, dipshit.

Congrats, Barry. You're the best there ever was in this game.

by nostocksjustbonds on Aug 8, 2007 12:02 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Jason Stark Raving Lame
The biggest tragedy of the steroids era is that it has robbed us of the magic -- the magic of the greatest numbers in sports. People used to walk down Main Street -- in your town, in any town -- and hear those numbers rattling around their brains. They knew what 60 meant. And 61. And 714. And 755. They weren't just baseball numbers. They were milestones from our entire culture."

We used to have only 3 TV channels and we waited until the newspaper came out to see what happened yesterday. People used to respect the president because he was the president. People used to know who their Congressmen was. Politicians, movie stars and professional athletes used to have their personal scandals kept out of the news by reporters!

TIMES HAVE FUCKING CHANGED and it isn't because of Barry Bonds and steroids!

Congrats, Barry. You're the best there ever was in this game.

by nostocksjustbonds on Aug 8, 2007 12:11 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Re: Jason Stark Raving Lame
At least they're blaming steroids now, I was getting tired of hearing how stat-heads ruined the magic of baseball milestones.
Fool me seven times, shame on you. Fool me eight or more times, shame on me.

by Bhaakon on Aug 8, 2007 12:14 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Jason Stark Raving Lame
Amen.
I need old crusty vets like I need a nail driven into my brain.

by BawLa on Aug 8, 2007 2:18 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I no longer respect Tim Kurkjian
We shouldn't put an asterisk next to it, either. There already is -- and always will be -- an imaginary asterisk next to this era. We should do what baseball has always done with its records and controversies: attach a story to them, and then let our best baseball fans -- they believe something fishy went on here -- decide how to recognize this achievement.

in other words, only the "best baseball fans" (read, those who hate Barry Bonds and "know" he is a cheater) get to decide whether the record is legitimate or not. Obviously, this statement means that if you like Bonds and view his record as legitimate (As I DO!) you're not one of the "best baseball fans" you're some lesser species of baseball fan.

It gets better, too.

As for Hank Aaron, he no longer will have the most home runs of anyone in history, but his legacy will not be lessened. Bonds' chase has given us another chance to celebrate the greatness of Aaron's career, and the strength of his purpose. His legacy might even be strengthened because, as far as we know, he hit 755 home runs naturally, legally and honestly.

Exactly how many of Bond homeruns were unnatural, illegal and dishonest? Is playing baseball some kind of test of character (suddenly?) Baseball isn't golf. You don't keep your own score. Did Bonds secretly add 100 homers to statistics when no one was looking? I'm pretty sure that all of Bonds homers happened in actual baseball games where there was an opponent trying to get him out (well, when they weren't walking him.)

Congrats, Barry. You're the best there ever was in this game.

by nostocksjustbonds on Aug 8, 2007 12:22 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Re: I no longer respect Tim Kurkjian
Oh Tim, you and your "analysis"
  1. Pedro Gomez also pulled the "let's let the fans decide" card. The problem is that the reason the "fans" believe what they do is because the media pounds us daily with "Barry=cheater=spawn of satan". Of course the media wants the "fans" to decide...the fans believe what the media wants them to!
  2. With all due respect to Aaron, how is everyone 100% certain he, along with all the other widely considered "great players" of his generation, did not take steroids or performance enhancers? How are we sure he was clean? My wife asked me this comment last night...even she gets it.

by UnleashTheGore on Aug 8, 2007 12:33 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: I no longer respect Tim Kurkjian
In answer to point #2, the steroids of the 60s were amphetamines. Many books have told the tale of the use of "greenies" in sports, with the most important of Aaron's day being "Ball Four" by Jim Bouton. Which is all to say PEDs have been rampant in sports for decades, including during Aaron's day, and any attempt to say that their use is only among players of the "steroid era" is a fantasy.

And, yes, Aaron and Mays and many others have been linked to the use of PEDs - true or not. There is no way to prove they didn't take the PEDs of their time. This "golden era" free of drug use crap is just that - a load of shit designed to be fed to the gullible.

by Sayhey on Aug 8, 2007 11:45 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: I no longer respect Tim Kurkjian
and another thing:

the fans get to decide questions like, Who was better, Bonds or Aaron? They then use statistics (not up to fans) to bolster their arguments.

"Who has more homers, Bonds or Aaron?" is a trivia question. There is an answer: Bonds. It's not up to a vote and records aren't popularity contests.

The "Best Fans" may think Ty Cobb was an asshole and a racist, but we don't reduce his hit total because of that. There's no asterisk.

Baseball statistics are morally neutral.

Congrats, Barry. You're the best there ever was in this game.

by nostocksjustbonds on Aug 8, 2007 12:53 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: I no longer respect Tim Kurkjian
I believe when Timmy K says "our best baseball fans," I don't think he's referring to ACTUAL baseball fans.  No my friends, Timmy K is referring to those people who are paid by NESPN.  Thems the best baseball fans!  And if you happen to agree with NESPN, then you're probably a pretty good baseball fan too.

Not one fucking article on espn.com or SI.com saying anything about a remarkable accomplishment.  And in the end, I'm not really positive that it's just because it's Bonds.  I think in x number of years, if/when A-Rod break's Bonds' record, people will still remember the glory that is Aaron, and how these whippersnappers today just don't compete with our legends of old!  It's all a load of bullshit neatly wrapped in nostalgia, and we don't want someone surly like Bonds or a bad teammate like A-Rod owning the record, because 755 is far too hallowed for something like that.  I hate ESPN now.

"The Lincoln assassination just recently became funny. 'I need to see this play like I need a hole in my head'."

by JRPhillips on Aug 8, 2007 1:15 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: I no longer respect Tim Kurkjian
Strange how having a classy representative hold the record wasn't all that big a deal when it was Ruth's. (Not to mention Cobb's).

by Roger on Aug 8, 2007 1:30 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: I no longer respect Tim Kurkjian
Of course!  And Aaron never received death threats from people adamant that a black man could NOT hold the record, right?

Not positive, but I don't think ESPN was around when Aaron set hit 715.  Can I get a fact check here?

"The Lincoln assassination just recently became funny. 'I need to see this play like I need a hole in my head'."

by JRPhillips on Aug 8, 2007 1:31 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: I no longer respect Tim Kurkjian
they started in 1979
Congrats, Barry. You're the best there ever was in this game.

by nostocksjustbonds on Aug 8, 2007 1:43 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: I no longer respect Tim Kurkjian
That was well after Aaron's homer, right?  Can I get a fact check on the year of 715?

You're point seems a little weak, Roger...  That's all I'm sayin...

"The Lincoln assassination just recently became funny. 'I need to see this play like I need a hole in my head'."

by JRPhillips on Aug 8, 2007 1:51 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: I no longer respect Tim Kurkjian
I don't that my point had anything to do with ESPN, but rather on a) changing norms and values or b) certain commentators tendencies to leach onto any weak-assed argument they can come by and then suggest it's an incontrovertible and timeless value, in this case the need to have classy ambassador types for major record holders.  I'll give you an entirely different example, long before the steroids stuff started people used to say that Ken Griffey was a greater player than Bonds because he laughed and smiled and looked like he was enjoying himself, and that as fans we had a right to expect that from star athletes. But in a different generation, Joe DiMaggio, who never cracked a hint of a smile in his career was venerated, while the tempestuous Ted Williams who frequently galloped around the bases with sheer joy after home runs was held in the basest contempt.

So I suppose my point was the arrogance of the now, people's tendency to believe that the values of today always have been and always will be true.

by Roger on Aug 9, 2007 8:20 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: 756
@ nostocksjustbonds,

Right on!!  Times have changed, and we're all better for it.

If I owned this place and Hell, I'd rent this out and live in Hell...

by ilselu1 on Aug 8, 2007 12:34 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Re: 756
Yeah , it seems to be Black Wednesday or somethin'.
  This is all I regret about how it all went down , and this only after having watched a double handful of Henry's 715th and Barry's 756th...

  Barry, understandably mindful of his place in history , raises his arms in a jubilant self - congratulatory gesture.

  Henry looks up briefly , then runs purposefully toward first base. Speaks volumes of his modesty.

  Of course as I read what I just wrote (PROOFREADING , not PREENING...) I think of the fact that Barry , to my knowledge , hasn't come out YET with his version of I Had A Hammer...

Barry Zito: Not an embarrassment of riches , but a rich embarrassment.

by victor frankenstein on Aug 8, 2007 12:45 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Re: 756
My initial impression of the hand-raising was not of self-congratulation but rather of relief.

by UnleashTheGore on Aug 8, 2007 1:01 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: 756
Congratulations baseball? You must be kidding. I guess the question is whether Barry Bonds' star will rise or fade away. We'll all know five years after he retires. I suspect it'll be Pete Rose all over again. Damn, I used to hate those Rose apologists!

by smedley on Aug 8, 2007 1:01 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Re: 756
There is nothing remotely worthwhile to be gained from trying to compare this to Pete Rose.

If anything, the very fact that Aaron publically handed the torch to Barry validates the significance of the accomplishment more than any bitter naysayers can possibly naysay.

Coming to you by proxy (I adopted: Dave Righetti!)

by howtheyscored on Aug 8, 2007 1:07 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: 756
Congratulations, Barry.  

I'm still buzzing from last night.  Of course, part of that may be the half-gallon of coffee I've drank to make up for the almost total lack of sleep I got, but hey.

by rocketdog on Aug 8, 2007 1:04 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Re: 756
Living in the Bay Area is so frustrating sometimes ....

Didn't any of you read Game of Shadows? The guy cheated ... no doubt about it. The difference between Bonds and the rest of the guys that roided up??... They weren't going after the most sacred record in all of sport.

I don't fault Giants fans for rooting for your guy, but don't blame the rest of us for breaking out the asterisks ...

Gah...football season's coming up right?

by codedfreaq on Aug 8, 2007 1:41 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Re: 756
What a wonderful contrast between complaining about Bonds using steroids and the NFL, where probably 75% of the league is completely roided up.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.

by jponry on Aug 8, 2007 1:45 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: 756
We won't blame the rest of you for breaking out the asterisks, if the rest of you can stop with the piss and vinegar.  Deal?
"The Lincoln assassination just recently became funny. 'I need to see this play like I need a hole in my head'."

by JRPhillips on Aug 8, 2007 1:46 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: 756
didn't you see the ball fly over the fence, Barry round the bases and touch home plate? that's called a home run. it happened. It wasn't a dream. It really did occur. pretending it didn't happen won't help you.
Congrats, Barry. You're the best there ever was in this game.

by nostocksjustbonds on Aug 8, 2007 1:46 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: 756
Read this because Grant says it much better than I could ever do it.
Barry Bombs gear | comics | Ray Durham is... yeah.

by Natto on Aug 8, 2007 1:49 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: 756
I have a pet peeve regarding the use of the words "sacred" or "hallowed" in referring to sports.  The HR record only matters at all because baseball owners, fearful of the economic fallout from the Black Sox Scandal decided to change the fundamental nature of the game by juicing the balls (thus denigrating at a stroke the lifetime achievements of people like Honus Wagner and Ty Cobb).  At least one of people who might have held the record was never allowed to compete for it because he was black.  What definition of "the sacred" do these events cover. Baseball is and has always been as profane and vulgar as America itself.

by Roger on Aug 8, 2007 2:00 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: 756
Thanks for stating that so succinctly.  It is so telling that so many have turned to so much sloganeering for so little purpose. Which is the base state of commercial media these days.
Barry Zito -- Catch Me if You Can.

by E Ticket on Aug 8, 2007 3:56 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: 756
I don't know if the sarcasm meter is going on overdrive or not here, but...

Are you seriously basing your opinion on Game of Shadows? Isn't this book based mostly the information from Bonds' ex-girlfriend that got pissed off at him? I'm not saying what's in the book can't be true, but it would be way down the list of reputable sources if I was trying to call Barry a steroid user.

by UnleashTheGore on Aug 8, 2007 2:02 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: 756
Game of Shadows is the more credible book by Fainaru-Wada and Williams, the Chronicle guys.  The book you're thinking of is the Jeff Pearlman hit job, the name of which escapes me at the moment.
The Maharajai steals at will (plus he's not Matt Morris).

by Mike Benjamin Hit King on Aug 8, 2007 2:36 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: 756
Love Me Hate Me.  Subtitled, I hate Bonds.
"The Lincoln assassination just recently became funny. 'I need to see this play like I need a hole in my head'."

by JRPhillips on Aug 8, 2007 2:40 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: 756
Oh you mean the one where the felonious disclosure of Federal Grand Jury Testimony was parsed out of context and used as the foundation for the book? The one by the discredited partisan hacks? That "credible" book?  Got it.
Barry Zito -- Catch Me if You Can.

by E Ticket on Aug 8, 2007 3:59 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: 756
Both books use extensive info from Bonds's ex-mistress, from what I've gathered from excerpts.

Hard to tell the truth when it is he said/she said private conversations so my measure of whether she is telling the truth is tied to the one thing we can test:  whether the IRS gets Barry on tax evasion on baseball card income as she has stated over and over again.  

I think it's two years plus and counting now, but still no conviction when it should be relatively easy to determine whether someone cheated on their taxes or not, they caught both Pete Rose and Willie McCovey, among others, relatively quickly in the 1990's.

"I'm a Giant now" and "I like watching the ball get up there" - Wendell Fairley "I'm really proud to be on this team." - Nate Schierholtz

by obsessivegiantscompulsive on Aug 8, 2007 4:22 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: 756
I have a feeling we're going to be seeing a lot of non-Giant posters here in the near future because of last night...

by UnleashTheGore on Aug 8, 2007 2:05 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: 756
I really do understand why some people think Barry's a cheater and personally devalue his HR accomplishments.  But I really don't get why he should get special animosity for setting important records.  

If you don't like PED-fueled players, that's a principle that makes some sense.  You can make a case for it.  But I have yet to hear a decent articulation why they shouldn't all be treated the same.

by achiappanza on Aug 8, 2007 5:16 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

they tried to pull the asterisk shit before
remember when Roger Maris had an actual asterisk next to his 61 homerun record because he did it in more games than Babe Ruth? that was a joke and so is the current asterisk bullshit, too.

And where's the asterisk for Gaylord Perry, perhaps the most notorious cheater in baseball history? If you're gonna just say, cheaters get an asterisk, then the list won't start or end with Barry Bonds.

Anyway, the statistics in the record books are evidence of what happened on the field in the games. That's it. They don't judge. They're a historical record. they don't throw caveats out there that Ruth didn't play against blacks, or asian or latin players. The don't indicate that Hank Aaron broke the record in so many more games and at bats than it took Ruth to set it. They don't indicate

  • the change from starters pitching the whole game (pretty much)
  • 4-man rotations
  • no more 300+inning guys
  • specialization, especially for relief pitching
  • bigger parks
  • smaller parks
  • cookie cutter parks
  • more games added to the schedule, including the postseason
  • the change in how the baseball is made (the biggest change coming in about 1920, which really created the homerun bonanza)
  • new types of bats, gloves, uniforms, sunglasses (though, those are pretty much always on the top of the hat. I have no clue why.)
  • the invention and use of spring training
  • advances in technology like the uses of video to study pitchers and hitters
  • the advances in the uses of statistics that change game strategy and fielding positions
  • the DESIGNATED HITTER! (played by both Bonds and Aaron)
  • interleague play
  • Astroturf, domes, night games
  • expansion that dilutes pitching (1961 and 1998 are two HUGE examples of this)
  • advances in medicine (and related technology) and surgery and rehabilitation methods that allow players to prolong their careers (or even have careers in the first place)
  • other changes in the way people get in and stay in shape, including body-building and other fitness and facilities
  • dietary supplements, illegal drug use and steroids, etc.
  • new pitches, banned pitches
  • free agency
  • changes in baseball scoring rules
  • no more doubleheaders
If you're gonna start adding asterisks to Bonds's record, don't forget to include at least all of these other things. Otherwise, get over it and just accept Bonds's record for what it is. The record. Period.
Congrats, Barry. You're the best there ever was in this game.

by nostocksjustbonds on Aug 8, 2007 2:10 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Re: they tried to pull the asterisk shit before
While I almost entirely agree with you, I feel compelled to point out that there never ever was, in fact, an asterisk next to Maris 61. That's a myth.  Instead, there were two separate records listed in the old Baseball Encyclopedias: one for the 154 game schedule and one for the 162 game schedule.  Supposedly, the owners originially intended to revert to a 154 game schedule when the 2nd expansion took place, which would have given the separate records a little more validity, but they never did it.

Nonetheless, you're entirely right.  Having spent a good portion of my life with two separate single season records, I would say that nobody in the baseball fan world really took that distinction seriously. It was the great eyeball roll of all time.

I have to say, this is one area where the NFL has always gotten it.  

by Roger on Aug 8, 2007 2:20 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: they tried to pull the asterisk shit before
Pretty exhaustive list.  The only thing I can think of to add is that I've read the various heights of the mound has had a significant effect on offensive production.
Bold Prediction: Klesko will finish the 2007 season with at least 20 HRs. (OPS+ is 129 as of 7/1/07)

by Goofus on Aug 8, 2007 3:25 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: they tried to pull the asterisk shit before
I totally forgot about that! I'm sure there's more. The list wasn't meant to be exhaustive, but that's all I could think of off the top of my head, which apparently (judging by the list) is as big as Bruce Bochy's.
Congrats, Barry. You're the best there ever was in this game.

by nostocksjustbonds on Aug 8, 2007 4:44 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: they tried to pull the asterisk shit before
Also:
  •  Seats added to old parks that eat up foul territory
  •  Addition of a team that plays in Denver.

by achiappanza on Aug 8, 2007 5:19 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: 756
I got two comp tickets to last night's game from my company last week and I have now seen 71, 72, 700, 715 and 756.  All of the games I picked months in advance and just got lucky.  I take full credit for all of Barry's milestone homeruns I've witnessed in person.  It's amazing how you can feel when he's gonna hit one out.

I would trade all of them in a second for a World Series Championship.  After 756 last night the rest of game was so damned depressing.  I want a team, not a king.

by southcitysteve on Aug 8, 2007 2:30 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Re: 756
Moral question for you, and anyone else who feels like answering it...

Would you rather have seen the Giants hoist a World Series championship trophy in 2002 AND have the all-time homer king be a Dodger?

OR

Have the all-time homer king be a Giant, with the Dodgers having last won the Series in '88 while the Giants still haven't won an SF World Series?

"The Lincoln assassination just recently became funny. 'I need to see this play like I need a hole in my head'."

by JRPhillips on Aug 8, 2007 2:33 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: 756
Is this even a question?  World Series.  It's not even difficult.
The Maharajai steals at will (plus he's not Matt Morris).

by Mike Benjamin Hit King on Aug 8, 2007 2:38 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: 756
But...  The Dodgers?  I mean... Fuck them!

Absolutely, though, I'd rather have had that 2002 trophy.

"The Lincoln assassination just recently became funny. 'I need to see this play like I need a hole in my head'."

by JRPhillips on Aug 8, 2007 2:41 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: 756
Curious how it's a moral question, but no question I'd rather have them won in 2002. I feel great for Barry after last night, but I would have felt great for myself after hypothetical World Series win in 2002.

by UnleashTheGore on Aug 8, 2007 2:40 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

No question about it
World Series
Barry Bombs gear | comics | Ray Durham is... yeah.

by Natto on Aug 8, 2007 2:46 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: 756
I would rather the Giants had the World Series, and Barry would too (if, you know, he was on the team).
Steve Kline: He's pretty okay!

by groug on Aug 8, 2007 2:53 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: 756
World Series.  I would probably enjoy booing Bonds as a Dodger as much as I enjoy blindly cheering him as a Giant.  If he were not in the orange, black and creamish uni, I would probably feel completely different to how I feel now.

Back in '93 my Mom took my sisters to Discovery Zone in Redwood City and Bonds was there with his kids and some buddies of his.  A young girl went up to him and asked for his autograph and he wouldn't saying something to the effect that she couldn't afford it.  Ever since then I've tried to concentrate on what he does on the field.

After 2001 it became clear to me that Bonds was juiced and also after 9/11 I grew a little out of touch with baseball to say the least.  Plus i was in college and I was more concerned with booze, boobs and bongs.  For the first time since the 80s I didn't watch the Giants in 2002.  Of course they make it to the World Series and I hate to admit it but I was rooting for them to lose.  It wasn't my team, I hadn't watched them all year.  I felt like even though I had been a lifelong fan I was jumping back on the bandwagon.  After '02 I was a born again diehard Giants fan and could finally gained some perspective on Bonds and the era that almost made me leave the game behind.  He was the greatest hitter of the greatest era for hitters.  He transcended all the hitters of his era.  Most importantly though he rejuvenated a Giants franchise that was very close to leaving SF and I don't think Giants fans will ever be able to thank him enough for that.  

by southcitysteve on Aug 8, 2007 2:58 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: 756
Man, Discovery Zone. Now that takes me back.
Barry Bombs gear | comics | Ray Durham is... yeah.

by Natto on Aug 8, 2007 3:05 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: 756
Me too.  I once borrowed a friend's kids so I could go play there.

by achiappanza on Aug 8, 2007 5:21 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: 756
The Bonds with Fans question is a weird one.

I've heard hundreds of stories about Bonds being extremely gracious with tha fans and a great guy when it comes to them, but I've heard a couple of stories about Bonds being specifically out with his family and giving these aproaching fans the cold shoulder.

I can't say I blame him for being surly when somebody approaches him AND his family. It's a little weird being cold to a child, but I know nothing about the circumstances outside of "with his family trying to have a good time."

Who knows, though? Who knows?

Coming to you by proxy (I adopted: Dave Righetti!)

by howtheyscored on Aug 8, 2007 3:09 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: 756
If I'd been with my family at Zeke's last night, I wouldn't given any of you a-holes the time of day.  :-P
Bold Prediction: Klesko will finish the 2007 season with at least 20 HRs. (OPS+ is 129 as of 7/1/07)

by Goofus on Aug 8, 2007 3:23 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: 756
When I first read that I thought you said you'd trade it all in for a 2nd World Championship, and for a fleeting second I thought "wait, did I miss the end of Game 7?"

by Roger on Aug 8, 2007 2:44 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: 756
It's strange to say out loud (well, online), but for me having the chance to watch the greatest player of all time (arguably) accomplishing the greatest accomplishments of all time (and I mean 500/500, 61, 62, 71, 73, 600, 660, 70, 715, 756, gold gloves, all stars, THIS year's all star game, the world series appearance, the walk record, the obp, the ops, etc.); having the chance to watch this guy do these things in MY uniform is marginally more of a special thing, more of a baseball privalege, than getting even a single World Series.

If there is one thing that happens less often than World Series Wins, it's players remotely as skilled as Bonds playing the game. And I've had the chance to watch it nearly every year of my life.

Now that's something, and I wouldn't trade it for a World Series if it came to that.

Though there's no possible way to qualify the two as being mutually exclusive. That the Giants never won a WS with that player is a damn shame, but for me it's only a small regret.

Coming to you by proxy (I adopted: Dave Righetti!)

by howtheyscored on Aug 8, 2007 2:48 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: 756
Throw in Mays, and some Giants fans have had the chance to watch this TWICE in their lifetimes.

It's remarkable, and the chances that it could happen are ridiculously slim.

We have nothing to complain about. We are privaleged fans.

A World Series Win would be nice, though.

Coming to you by proxy (I adopted: Dave Righetti!)

by howtheyscored on Aug 8, 2007 2:52 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: 756
How about TWO World Series rings?
Barry Bombs gear | comics | Ray Durham is... yeah.

by Natto on Aug 8, 2007 2:54 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: 756
Now you're negotiating!
Coming to you by proxy (I adopted: Dave Righetti!)

by howtheyscored on Aug 8, 2007 3:01 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: 756
Now you're thinking like Mrs. Bonds:  after the 2002 loss, his wife told him he got his wish, he wanted to be in the World Series and he was.
"I'm a Giant now" and "I like watching the ball get up there" - Wendell Fairley "I'm really proud to be on this team." - Nate Schierholtz

by obsessivegiantscompulsive on Aug 8, 2007 4:29 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: 756
While I'm ripping on anti-Bonds media tools, did anyone see Skip Brainless on ESPN#2 this morning saying that Bascik laid it into Bonds on purpose because he wanted the fame of being the guy giving up the record?

I mean, Bascik seemed to be a pretty good sport about things at the press conference, but that has got to be the stupidest thing I've ever heard. Not only does Bonds need help from roids to hit homers, but he needs the opposing pitchers to serve gopherballs up on a platter to him.

The Media Motto: Whatever to discredit Bonds, regardless of how outrageous, conspiratorial and untrue.

Congrats, Barry. You're the best there ever was in this game.

by nostocksjustbonds on Aug 8, 2007 7:18 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Re: 756
Holy crap. If not for the "bionic transplant elbow guard" article we saw earlier in the week, that would be the moroniest thing I've heard in the last seven days.
Coming to you by proxy (I adopted: Dave Righetti!)

by howtheyscored on Aug 8, 2007 10:10 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

More Sloppy Media
This time from Newsweek, on how the Giants were able to get Hank Aaron's congratulatory video:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20191137/site/newsweek/

"I would like to offer my congratulations to Barry Bonds on becoming baseball's career home run leader," Aaron said in a surprise taped tribute played on the big video scoreboard at AT&T Park, seconds after Bonds hit No. 756. "It is a great accomplishment, which required skill, longevity and determination." Aaron, whose record of surpassing Babe Ruth stood for 33 years, then offered his "best wishes to Barry and his family," and then rather cryptically added, "My hope today, as it was on that April evening in 1974, is that the achievement of this record will inspire others to chase their own dreams." The last comment of course could be read as Aaron's hope that some other ballplayer will come along and one day pass Bonds, whose home run chase has been tarnished by relentless questions about Bonds's alleged use of performance-enhancing substances. Aaron made clear months ago that he would not be present during Bonds's chase, and Aaron has hardly embraced Bonds as worthy of baseball immortality.

WTF? Dude, it could be interpreted that way by someone who desperately wants the facts to fit his pre-determined bias.

That's a big fucking leap there.

by otis29 on Aug 9, 2007 8:00 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Re: More Sloppy Media
seriously, lol projecting.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.

by jponry on Aug 9, 2007 9:11 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: More Sloppy Media
Schulman wrote about it today too:
http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/chronicle/archive/2007/08/09/SPS6RF5PR.DTL

(Similar story with a few more details of the conversation between Baer and Aaron.)

Bold Prediction: Klesko will finish the 2007 season with at least 20 HRs. (OPS+ is 129 as of 7/1/07)

by Goofus on Aug 9, 2007 10:05 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: More Sloppy Media
Since he said he felt the same way in 1974, that "could be read" as Aaron's view that his own record was tainted and he hoped that someone would break it.

If you were an idiot, that is.

Proud adoptive father of the All-Father and his 2.29 ERA

by EliminateMe on Aug 9, 2007 10:21 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: 756
One thing I hate is how the media pretty much shapes the ideas of Barry for people who aren't baseball fans. I overheard a conversation in class about Barry and a guy remarked how it proved that anyone can be successful in life by popping pills. Clearly he was uninformed on the matter, but is it really his fault if his only real window into the issue is a media that seeks to vilify Bonds?
Barry Bombs gear | comics | Ray Durham is... yeah.

by Natto on Aug 9, 2007 9:47 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Re: 756
It's the ol' Karl Rove philosophy. Decide what your attack point's going to be and just keep hammering away at it. Eventually a certain portion of the public will start repeating it whether it has any validity or not.

by Roger on Aug 9, 2007 10:40 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

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