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Out with the bad, in with the bad....

Point: The Giants need to play the young players. The team isn't going anywhere, so I can't figure out what the plan is. Is Ray Durham really the future of this team? Rich Aurilia? They need to sit on the bench and spray each other with seltzer bottles. The field is for non-clowns.

Counterpoint: Typical fan impatience. The Giants need to figure out if any of their young players can play, but they'll need to move some of the old guys first. The team's probably exposing all of the veterans to waivers. If guys like Durham, Feliz, or Klesko get hot, maybe a team will want them on the roster.

Point: No one's going to take Durham with another year on his contract even if he goes 40 for his next 41. He's done, he's not a part of the future, he needs to sit.

Counterpoint: Maybe the Giants will kick in a couple of million to move him. The point is that you can't showcase these players from the bench.

Point: And they won't let you showcase a bobbing-for-apples-coughed-on-by-a-guy-with-tuberculosis booth at the county fair. So why would you try?

Counterpoint: What? That doesn't make....

Point: No one wants these players. Klesko, maybe. Kline, sure. Everyone else? Forget it.

Counterpoint: That's what folks were saying about Matt Morris, too.

Point: That was a fluke. I have no problem with keeping Klesko and Kline on the field, but every game without Fred Lewis is an abomination. Every game without Kevin Frandsen is an abomination. Nate Schierholtz should be up and playing five days a week.

Counterpoint: Kevin Frandsen is a prospect like Kim Batiste was a prospect. Do you want to find out if he can play? Here's a quick and accurate test: If Kevin Frandsen is using a wood bat while he's hitting, that's nature's way of telling you that he can't hit.

Point: Hey, he's a career .300 hitter in the minors, and he leaves more scrappiness behind in his used Kleenex than most players have in their entire bodies.

Counterpoint: The problem with your strategy is that the only interesting players in the Giants system are outfielders, and the Giants' outfield is comprised of the franchise cash cow and two huge contracts. You aren't going to have a chance to move the contracts without playing the players. If Randy Winn finishes the season over .300, maybe another team will take the contract for the last two years. If Dave Roberts ends the season on a hot streak, maybe Boston will trade for him, encase him in carbonite, and display him at the entrance to Fenway.

Point: Winn and Roberts are boring.

Counterpoint: They'll be boring for several more years if they aren't traded, and benchies making close to $10M per season are impossible to trade.

Point: Why does this team have 15 different centerfielders?

Counterpoint: I don't know. The same kind of thing happens to me when I go to Costco. All of a sudden, I'm like, "Hey, what in the world do I need with 48 boxes of Pop-Tarts?" Then I laugh at myself and move on. It's kind of like that, except instead of toaster pastries, they're human beings who are paid millions of dollars to play a specific role on a sports team. I can totally relate. Po-tay-to, po-tah-to.

What say you? Should the kids play, or should the team showcase the vets?

0 recs | Comment 85 comments

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Re: Out with the bad, in with the bad....
showcase the vets. there's plenty of time over the next couple years to play the kids

by MikeyJ on Aug 6, 2007 1:21 PM PDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Out with the bad, in with the bad....
Winn needs to be showcased because he could have some value, Im skeptical that anyone would claim Roberts but he's been on fire lately so that may change. Durham NEEDS to sit, no one is going to claim him, NO ONE. Frandsen deserves a shot to play everyday at second and Durham is getting closer to rock bottom every time he takes the field. I like Durham, he seems like a nice guy, but he's done.

After the final trade deadline is crossed Roberts, Aurilia, Durham, and Winn need to sit. Lewis, Frandsen, Davis, Schierholtz should all get the majority of the playing time over the vets, if the transition isn't made by then it'll just be ridiculous.

by Keenlow on Aug 6, 2007 1:23 PM PDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Out with the bad, in with the bad....
Showcase the vets that actually have a shot at going somewhere - no more Feliz, who is a lost cause. DFA him now, offer to pay of the rest of his contract, and see if we can find a low-A arm. As of Sept 1, the only guys playing should be the young ones.
Jonathan Sanchez. He's left-handed, like Barry Zito. His fastball breaks 80, unlike Zito.

by Aadik on Aug 6, 2007 1:23 PM PDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Out with the bad, in with the bad....
I hope Frandsen proves me wrong, but I fear the day he takes over fulltime at 2B. His toughness (white), grittyness (white), and gamer-ness (white) just don't make up for his apparent lack of talent. But who knows, maybe he just needs consistant playing time?

by mxmob33 on Aug 6, 2007 1:25 PM PDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Out with the bad, in with the bad....
Yeah - I think he's a poor poor man's version of David Eckstein. That being said, he has hit at every level, so he ought to get at least a season to prove it.
Jonathan Sanchez. He's left-handed, like Barry Zito. His fastball breaks 80, unlike Zito.

by Aadik on Aug 6, 2007 1:29 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Out with the bad, in with the bad....
But we got nothing to loose by playing him. Every day Durham plays his trade value goes down.

by Cookyman on Aug 6, 2007 1:31 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

gospel truth
.233/.302/.371

fucking pathetic

Billy Hayes: Nine more big-league plate appearances than you.

by delorean on Aug 6, 2007 1:44 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Out with the bad, in with the bad....
what I saw over the weekend made me pretty positive that Frandsen can't play 3B at all. I really didn't pay much attention to him there before. He sucked it defensively.

by Mark carry on on Aug 6, 2007 1:30 PM PDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

One last hurrah for the old guys
Let the August waiver wire play out another week or so. By the end of August and thru September get a good look at the kids. Look at pitchers from Fresno, let Franny play 2b regularly and have the young OFs run free. This will help come winter when some tough decisions will need to be made by Sabean & Co.

by wilriv21 on Aug 6, 2007 1:35 PM PDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Out with the bad, in with the bad....
I actually went to Bellarmine HS with Frandsen, and I was on the Frosh team when he was a Senior. I really hope he can pull through, I know he has some talent. You can't just put him somewhere different every day and expect him to hit... no player would be able to take that kind of inconsistency. Frandsen just needs to be given the chance to develop a bit, everyone was so high on him in Spring, why not let the guy play his natural position, the whole game, for a few days in a row. The Giants haven't even done that yet.

And really, NO ONE wants Durham.

Lets just bring up the AZL Giants. All of them.

by AngelintheInfield on Aug 6, 2007 1:36 PM PDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Boooooooo
Played against the Bells in CCS a few years ago and lost.
Lance Niekro AAA Watch: 66 AB .301/.375/.470 6 2B 1 3B 2 HR 10 BB (through 8/5)

by WalrusMan on Aug 6, 2007 8:27 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Out with the bad, in with the bad....
I've asked this question before , and you all just looked at your shoes...what about different positions defensively affect the way a hitter performs offensively?
  If it's the same bat...at the same plate...what friggin' difference does it make where you were standing ten minutes ago?
Barry Zito: Not an embarrassment of riches , but a rich embarrassment.

by victor frankenstein on Aug 6, 2007 4:19 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Don't answer that here...
...I'm taking this to the big stage.
Barry Zito: Not an embarrassment of riches , but a rich embarrassment.

by victor frankenstein on Aug 6, 2007 4:21 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Don't answer that here...
I'm no psych major, but I'd think that if you're gifted enough to play multiple defensive positions, it makes no difference.  Pedro Feliz could do it, and his numbers would look the same offensively.  Albert Pujols once did it, and still put up great numbers.

But if your name is Kevin Frandsen, and you're not quite able to play multiple positions with much aplomb, I imagine that it would start to get into your head that maybe you suck at what you're doing, and various aspects of your game start to suffer.  Again, I'm no psychiatrist, but I'd think it just has to do with losing confidence and having issues with how you play overall.  If Frandsen stays at 2B where he's comfortable, maybe he maintains his confidence with the bat and puts together better numbers.

I think we've all seen enough of him at shortstop, 3rd, and rightfield to know his glove starts losing its luster pretty quickly.  I'm betting that can rattle him.  Again, just guessing.

"The Lincoln assassination just recently became funny. 'I need to see this play like I need a hole in my head'."

by JRPhillips on Aug 6, 2007 5:12 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Out with the bad, in with the bad....
I'm rooting for Frandsen as much as anyone, and I'd like to see him get consistent ABs and a chance to succeed.

However, I'm wary of the "give him a steady position and he'll turn into a consistent hitter" theory. Let's call it the Feliz Principle, after the player who has proven it wrong so thoroughly. A lot of fans, myself included, were hoping that once Feliz was playing third every day, he'd improve at the plate. But he's done just the opposite.

Now, it's by no means a given that everyone will follow his trajectory (thank Xochipilli), but I really don't want to count on it.

Proud adoptive father of the All-Father and his 2.29 ERA

by EliminateMe on Aug 6, 2007 5:11 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Out with the bad, in with the bad....
Applying the Feliz Principle, maybe we could hope that staying at one position would at least turn Frandsen into a poor hitter with a good glove.
"Robb Nen is going to get you" - Benito Santiago to Chipper Jones, 10/7/02

by Pants Man on Aug 6, 2007 5:27 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Out with the bad, in with the bad....
Boston fans: I love you.

Dave Roberts: I know.

The Fringe was right.

by nostocksjustbonds on Aug 6, 2007 1:42 PM PDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Out with the bad, in with the bad....
That made me LOL for real.
Bold Prediction: Klesko will finish the 2007 season with at least 20 HRs. (OPS+ is 129 as of 7/1/07)

by Goofus on Aug 6, 2007 1:55 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Out with the bad, in with the bad....
can't we trade Durham to the Angels for Steve Finley?
The Fringe was right.

by nostocksjustbonds on Aug 6, 2007 1:43 PM PDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Out with the bad, in with the bad....
I am so totally convinced that Frandsen is Scrappy and Durham is not.
Davis: Originally a 38th round selection of Pittsburgh in 2001 out of the University of Connecticut-Avery Point.

by Whipping Boy on Aug 6, 2007 1:45 PM PDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Out with the bad, in with the bad....
Durham is more Scooby-Dum than Scrappy.
The Fringe was right.

by nostocksjustbonds on Aug 6, 2007 2:09 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Out with the bad, in with the bad....
Can the Giants field a starting 9 of all outfielders? If you stretch the definition and wait til September callups, they might be able to:

BLB - LF
Rajai - CF
Lewis - RF
Winn - 3B
Ortmeier - SS
Roberts - 2B
Schierholtz - 1B
Feliz - C (he played lots of left field in '05)
Lowry - P

Billy Hayes: Nine more big-league plate appearances than you.

by delorean on Aug 6, 2007 1:53 PM PDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Out with the bad, in with the bad....
And that's not including Sweeney, Klesko or Frandsen, all of whom have played a bit of outfield this year. Yikes. I think Sabean was right to turn down that Sanchez-for-Gomez deal.
"Robb Nen is going to get you" - Benito Santiago to Chipper Jones, 10/7/02

by Pants Man on Aug 6, 2007 1:56 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Out with the bad, in with the bad....
Thats right,I forgot Lowry  played an inning in left field this year.

by Cookyman on Aug 6, 2007 3:11 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Out with the bad, in with the bad....
Very funny piece. I missed those guys.

There should be some sort of compromise possible here. Even if Durham and Winn remain starters, they don't need to play every damn day, and Roberts should never be in the lineup vs. a lefty.

"Robb Nen is going to get you" - Benito Santiago to Chipper Jones, 10/7/02

by Pants Man on Aug 6, 2007 1:59 PM PDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Out with the bad, in with the bad....
Puh-leeeze play the kids, if not all the time then at least the majority of it. It's a lot more fun watching Davis and Lewis run the bases, and Frandsen play scrappily at second, than watching Durham's career fall off a cliff in every at-bat.
Lon Simmons' adopted dad.

by Kitspool on Aug 6, 2007 2:41 PM PDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

What I say...
Encase me in Carbonite until at least the 2010 season. Its the most painless solution by far.

by hammystyle on Aug 6, 2007 2:46 PM PDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

better make it 2013
starting lineup in 2010

CF - Rocco Baldelli
SS - Bobby Crosby
3b - Joe Crede
LF - Bonds
1B - Carlos Delgado
RF - Jim Edmonds
2b - Mark Loretta
C -  Gregg Zaun
SP - Zito, Cain, Linc, Mad Bum, Jamie Moyer

Closer: Joe Borowski

The Fringe was right.

by nostocksjustbonds on Aug 6, 2007 2:57 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Highest SORP rating in history!
Billy Hayes: Nine more big-league plate appearances than you.

by delorean on Aug 6, 2007 3:03 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Highest SORP rating in history!
plus pinch hitter extraordinaire, Julio Franco!
The Fringe was right.

by nostocksjustbonds on Aug 6, 2007 3:11 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Highest SORP rating in history!
Senility Over Replacement Players?
Proud adoptive father of the All-Father and his 2.29 ERA

by EliminateMe on Aug 6, 2007 4:36 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Highest SORP rating in history!
Scrappiness!
Billy Hayes: Nine more big-league plate appearances than you.

by delorean on Aug 6, 2007 4:39 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Highest SORP rating in history!
Considering that starting 8 would have an average age on the far side of 36 - even with a 28-year-old Baldelli bringing things down - I think mine works just as well...
Proud adoptive father of the All-Father and his 2.29 ERA

by EliminateMe on Aug 6, 2007 4:45 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Highest SORP rating in history!
also the highest VSORP (Veteran Savvy Over Replacement Player) ever.
The Fringe was right.

by nostocksjustbonds on Aug 6, 2007 5:26 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Out with the bad, in with the bad....
I don't mind playing the veterans to get their trade value up, but can someone please explain why Ray Durham always hits in the third spot!!! He should be hitting 8th like Omar was when he couldn't hit this year.
Benitez: All Balk, no Bite.

by BondOrBust on Aug 6, 2007 3:14 PM PDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Out with the bad, in with the bad....
Tony LaRussa hit his pitchers 8th for a couple games last week. I suggest putting Ray in the 9 spot for a game or two behind the pitcher. Hopefully, the jolt to his pride will wake his ass up.
The Fringe was right.

by nostocksjustbonds on Aug 6, 2007 3:18 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Out with the bad, in with the bad....
He doesn't have any pride left. If he did, he would be wearing el Traje de Luces instead of a baseball uniform.
Barry Zito -- Catch Me if You Can.

by E Ticket on Aug 6, 2007 5:01 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Out with the bad, in with the bad....
The problem with this team is that they are all decent hitters if you had the luxury of batting them 7th or 8th in the order, and had truly good hitters in the other spots.  But they are all no better than 7th or 8th place hitters you would see in a good lineup.  

by out machine on Aug 6, 2007 3:31 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Out with the bad, in with the bad....
I was thinking Winn should be hitting 5th since he's been the best hitter since the break.

Roberts/ Davis
Omar
Klesko
Bonds
Winn
Molina
Feliz
Durham
Pitcher

Bold Prediction: Klesko will finish the 2007 season with at least 20 HRs. (OPS+ is 129 as of 7/1/07)

by Goofus on Aug 6, 2007 3:45 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Out with the bad, in with the bad....
Every crappy team is a collection of losers who play rightfield and bat at the bottom of the order or ride pine--even on a mediocre team. At every level starting in Little League.
Barry Zito -- Catch Me if You Can.

by E Ticket on Aug 6, 2007 5:06 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Tonight's game
will be taken off the official books if I can't get some 2007 projection data from the Nats pitcher John Lamman.  Vegas has the Giants as 63% favorites, but I don't feel comfortable with my simulation with the Nats pitcher having throw something like 10 innings so far this year.
vr, Xei
People often make fun of or bash the things in life they don't understand.

by Xeifrank on Aug 6, 2007 3:51 PM PDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Tonight's game
Official books? Wow, so now the games don't even count unless Xei simulates them. Soon the teams won't even have to bother playing - they can just sit around the clubhouse drinking beer, awaiting the sim outcome!
Proud adoptive father of the All-Father and his 2.29 ERA

by EliminateMe on Aug 6, 2007 4:40 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Tonight's game
It's a shame you weren't aborted.
755 bong hits for Barry and counting.

by Tajiri on Aug 6, 2007 4:47 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Tonight's game
The doctors would have nothing to do with his mother.
I need old crusty vets like I need a nail driven into my brain.

by BawLa on Aug 6, 2007 5:04 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Wavier wire
Is there someplace where we can see if the Giants have put the older crowd (Durham, Klein, Klesko and friends) on waivers to see if they can be cleared for a later trade?

I've looked around and can't see any record of them being offered up to the wire.

"If you no help me right now Jobu, I say F-it, I do it myself." - Pedro Feliz

by CEO of the William VanLandingham FanClub on Aug 6, 2007 4:07 PM PDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Wavier wire
Apparently it's not something they release to the public -- we may never hear who was put on waivers.
Billy Hayes: Nine more big-league plate appearances than you.

by delorean on Aug 6, 2007 4:10 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Wavier wire
on a side note, you must be disappointed that Jarrod Saltalamacchia edged on Van Landingham for the all-time longest surname in MLB history.
The Fringe was right.

by nostocksjustbonds on Aug 6, 2007 5:28 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Wavier wire
Here's some useless info: The 2001 A's outfield (Long, Dye, Damon) had fewer letters than Vanlandingham.
Bold Prediction: Klesko will finish the 2007 season with at least 20 HRs. (OPS+ is 129 as of 7/1/07)

by Goofus on Aug 7, 2007 10:14 AM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Out with the bad, in with the bad....
Maybe we should give them all geritol and wish them well.

by ektrod on Aug 6, 2007 4:55 PM PDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Out with the bad, in with the bad....
I much prefer strychnine be administered. In one quart doses.
Barry Zito -- Catch Me if You Can.

by E Ticket on Aug 6, 2007 5:08 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Out with the bad, in with the bad....
I will just assume everyone was put through unless informed otherwise.  

by out machine on Aug 6, 2007 5:00 PM PDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Out with the bad, in with the bad....
They put Cammy Blackstone on waivers but she wasn't even claimed by her own family.
Lon Simmons' adopted dad.

by Kitspool on Aug 6, 2007 5:03 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Out with the bad, in with the bad....
Zing!
I need old crusty vets like I need a nail driven into my brain.

by BawLa on Aug 6, 2007 5:05 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Out with the bad, in with the bad....
Frandsen is not a 3B, not a LF, not even a SS.  He is a 2B and that is it.  I don't want to see him anywhere else, including the bench.  Kevin has a higher OBP than Durham and can play better defense than Durham at 2B.  Until we give him regular playing time, for the whole game, he is not going to develop.  Unless if we were grooming him for crap utility infielder/crap pinch hitter role.  But Aurilia has that locked down pat for the next year and a half.
I need old crusty vets like I need a nail driven into my brain.

by BawLa on Aug 6, 2007 5:07 PM PDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Out with the bad, in with the bad....
I think Durham zero trade value this year even if we took back some salary -- and hitting .300 for the rest of the month won't change that

so the next real time we can trade him is next years trading deadline

sitting him for the rest of the year won't hurt his value either

so I suggest sit him for rest of year and then have him start next yes -- I should have a bounce back year plus the usual salary drive

by melottfan on Aug 6, 2007 5:13 PM PDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Out with the bad, in with the bad....
I think if Durham went to a smaller park, like the one my local little league plays in, he might have some value as a power hitter.
The Fringe was right.

by nostocksjustbonds on Aug 6, 2007 5:30 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Out with the bad, in with the bad....
only if they move the fences in fifty feet, and let him use a lacrosse stick to play the field with.
Barry Zito -- Catch Me if You Can.

by E Ticket on Aug 6, 2007 5:48 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Out with the bad, in with the bad....
Durham is only one year removed from a career-high .538 SLG. I don't expect him to repeat that, but I do expect him to be a lot closer to that next year than to his current numbers...
Proud adoptive father of the All-Father and his 2.29 ERA

by EliminateMe on Aug 6, 2007 5:51 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Out with the bad, in with the bad....
Durham is more done than burnt beef jerky. Not only is he done, he is overdone. He is beyond overdone. He is the overdonest ever.
Barry Zito -- Catch Me if You Can.

by E Ticket on Aug 6, 2007 5:56 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Out with the bad, in with the bad....
Durham scares at a curveball crossing the plate like it is a UFO that has come to take his Lexus away.
Davis: Originally a 38th round selection of Pittsburgh in 2001 out of the University of Connecticut-Avery Point.

by Whipping Boy on Aug 6, 2007 6:04 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Out with the bad, in with the bad....
I agree (and not just because he's my boy). After all, everyone was bagging on Randy Winn last year and this year he's one of the few consistnent hitters the Giants have.
Barry Bombs gear | comics | Ray Durham is... yeah.

by Natto on Aug 6, 2007 11:16 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Out with the bad, in with the bad....
Isn't there a disconnect between "showcase" and "waiver wire"?  I can understand keeping a guy in the lineup to prove he's not injured/ make other teams think he has value. (of course, that approach assumes no one will be Ryan Langerhans, who of course in fact was traded twice this year despite his ulcerated bat)

But when it's down to trying to move people via waivers, isn't that an admission that the players in question were semi-valueless before?  

I think the idea is: play them and beg for a trade in the meantime.  Any trade.  If salary can be dumped, super, but at some point paying Klesko to throw his helmet in Tampa is worth every penny for the rest of the year, just like it's worth every penny to inflate the earnings of Miami-area grocers and restaurant operators by paying Boonitez to pitch there.  If the applicable Fresno spare part replacement turns out to be Jack Cust II, so much the better.

BB

All those Giants fans down in Giants land love that Crazy Crab!

by BlackDougal on Aug 6, 2007 5:23 PM PDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Out with the bad, in with the bad....
I believe you're confusing the term disconnect with "out of their fucking minds"

You cannot trade any of this shit, including Bochy and Up In Smokebrain Flannery. All you can do is try to kill it and hope you can scrape most of it off your shoe before the street sweepers cruise by Third and King Street.

Barry Zito -- Catch Me if You Can.

by E Ticket on Aug 6, 2007 5:51 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Out with the bad, in with the bad....
I'd sit Durham for Frandsen and make sure Lewis gets regular PT (sit one of the regular outfielders once every three games).
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.

by jponry on Aug 6, 2007 5:31 PM PDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Out with the bad, in with the bad....
I mean, like, rest Roberts one day, then rest Winn the next day, then rest Bonds, rinse and repeat.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.

by jponry on Aug 6, 2007 5:32 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Out with the bad, in with the bad....
Actually I'd ship most of these guys to the New South Wales Beer League and see if I could get some Kangaroo steaks in return
Barry Zito -- Catch Me if You Can.

by E Ticket on Aug 6, 2007 5:53 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Out with the bad, in with the bad....
Unless if we were grooming him for crap utility infielder/crap pinch hitter role.

That is the sum total of the Giants Player Development Syllabus under Jack Hiatt for the past 16 years. At least what I could skim from Retrosheet.org  his is the sum total of homegrown position players to hit the Giants roster since 1992, the first season of Hiatt's stewardship over the farm system.  The list is neither long nor distinguished

See:

Tony Torcato
JR Phillips
Brian Dallimore
Lance Niekro
Todd Linden
Mike Benjamin
Craig Colbert
Jay Canizaro
Rikkert Faneyte
John Patterson
Erik Johnson
Marvin Benard
Steve Decker
Dante Powell
Royce Clayton
Bill Mueller
Charlie Hayes
Armando Rios
Jacob Cruz
Justin Knoedler
Dan Ortmeier
Angel Chavez
Adam Shabala
Doug Clark
Travis Ishikawa
Chad Santos
Dax Jones
Marcus Jensen
Calvin Murray
Pedro Feliz
Edwards Guzman
Cody Ransom
Yorvit Torrealba
Trey Lunsford
Francisco Santos
Jason Ellison
Carlos Valderrama

Barry Zito -- Catch Me if You Can.

by E Ticket on Aug 6, 2007 5:47 PM PDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Out with the bad, in with the bad....
I thought my career was VERY distinguished!

Well, thank goodness Craig Colbert found his true calling in comedy.  He's got a great show.

"The Lincoln assassination just recently became funny. 'I need to see this play like I need a hole in my head'."

by JRPhillips on Aug 6, 2007 5:54 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Out with the bad, in with the bad....
Not even. Thats his third cousin Steven.
Barry Zito -- Catch Me if You Can.

by E Ticket on Aug 6, 2007 5:57 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Out with the bad, in with the bad....
Mine too!
The Maharajai steals at will (plus he's not Matt Morris).

by Mike Benjamin Hit King on Aug 7, 2007 1:13 AM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Out with the bad, in with the bad....
Top Tier:
Royce Clayton
Bill Mueller
Charlie Hayes

These guys ended up being pretty decent major leaguers with fairly long careers. Mueller won a batting title in Boston and Clayton has done pretty well for himself, particularly has a defender.

2nd Tier
Pedro Feliz

Can get hot, but for the most part is a starting everyday 3b defensively, but pretty putrid with the bat over the whole season.

3rd Tier
Marvin Benard
Yorvit Torrealba
Mike Benjamin

Occasional starters/legit platoon players. Benjamin probably exceeded his physical abilities. Benard was basically Randy Winn without the defensive abilities.  

The rest is garbage. However, the book is probably still out on Ortmeier, though he probably will never be more than a 4th OF.

So yeah, make Hiatt the head of pitcher scouting and get someone who knows hitters to be in charge of that.

I find it pretty lazy that every year we hear how the Giants are really good at scouting and drafting pitching so they just go for that. That's inexcusable for a major league team. If they need help developing hitters, go out and get someone who knows them and can develop them. Shit. How hard could that fucking be to understand?

The Fringe was right.

by nostocksjustbonds on Aug 6, 2007 6:05 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Out with the bad, in with the bad....
Maybe its semantics. But to me top tier guys are guys like

Ryan Howard
M. Cabrera
Pujols
Jose Reyes
Joe Mauer
Justin Morneau
Jimy Rollins
Chase Utely
and so on.  Guys that can carry a team for a couple of weeks, or get pitched around as a matter of course, or can take over a game a half dozen times a year.

I would put Mueller as 2nd Tier...good steady career, not specatacular, guys that help you turn your lineup over and wear down pitchers in the process.

Clayton, Feliz, Hayes were/are guys that are bottom of the lineup guys on decent teams. They are 3rd tier players barely hanging onto starting jobs only because they have bigger contracts than comparable minimum wagers who may actually be a little better, but just don't have the connections   or the "veteran savvy" yet.

Bernard, Torrieaba, Benjamin are the poster children for why MLB has 4 too many teams.

Barry Zito -- Catch Me if You Can.

by E Ticket on Aug 6, 2007 6:16 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Out with the bad, in with the bad....
you'd think you'd get the hint that you can't scout position players when Yorvit Torrealba is the best pro on that list.
"Branca throws..."

by Takimoto on Aug 6, 2007 5:57 PM PDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Out with the bad, in with the bad....
OMG Durham has another Year on his contract? Who? What? Why?!!!
Davis: Originally a 38th round selection of Pittsburgh in 2001 out of the University of Connecticut-Avery Point.

by Whipping Boy on Aug 6, 2007 6:00 PM PDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Out with the bad, in with the bad....
Much as I despise and I mean DESPISE watching Feliz, Aurelia, Klesko, Durham, Roberts and Winn tank it night in and night out, the thought of watching future Brian Dallimore's, Cody Ransoms, JR Phillips, Jacob Cruz's Lance Niekros for the rest of the year is even more distasteful. I have zero faith, ZERO, that there is any position player in the Giants Farm system that has MLB potential. It was either never there, or it got beat out of them by the inept coaches and instructors infesting said Farm System. We can all hope that somehow, some farmhand eventually makes it in the next couple of years, but if you look at the list above of 37 guys who were homegrown, and there has been no change in the way that organization goes about its business, why would anybody expect anything different?

On a positive note. Once Bonds breaks the record, you will be able to walk up to PacBell anytime you want and get tickets.

Barry Zito -- Catch Me if You Can.

by E Ticket on Aug 6, 2007 6:08 PM PDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Out with the bad, in with the bad....
Tonight's Starting Line-Up:

R. Davis cf         
O. Vizquel ss         
R. Winn rf    
B. Bonds lf        
B. Molina c        
R. Durham 2b        
P. Feliz 1b        
K. Frandsen 3b         
T. Lincecum

by SFG on Aug 6, 2007 6:35 PM PDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Out with the bad, in with the bad....
I like seeing Rajai Davis in there simply because it's great to see what a centerfielder who can actually run to catch fly balls looks like.

And Durham?  I have no idea what Bochy is thinking.  None.  

By the way, did anyone see the piece in the Chronicla about how none of the Giants took batting practice the other night?  Is that normal?  Or are these guys just old and view playing on the Giants as some kind of deserved pension?

by SFG on Aug 6, 2007 6:39 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Out with the bad, in with the bad....
That you have no idea what Bochy is thinking is a very good thing.
Barry Zito -- Catch Me if You Can.

by E Ticket on Aug 6, 2007 6:58 PM PDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Out with the bad, in with the bad....
The young guns may or may not have much future, but let's be honest, the MAY is at the very least more intriguing than trotting out bodies every game that are deep on the bench on any other team. I swear dust falls off Durham's bat every time he gets lucky and makes contact. Feliz is dead weight. Come on Boch, give em a chance. The Nats are more fun to watch b/c at least their bums play with passion.

by mike aldrete fan club president on Aug 6, 2007 8:09 PM PDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Out with the bad, in with the bad....
One thing about the Giants is that they haven't really missed on the evaluation of their own position player "prospects". It's not like the league is filled with former Giant farmhands, and for a team that has traded away so many minor league players, that's saying something. The point is that they already know their guys can't play. I certainly don't see anything from any of the current crop offensively.
So what to do? Unless you plan on eating the contract, you can't really bench a guy with a contract that extends beyond this year. Aside from Benitez, I can't think of a single contract they've eaten. My guess is that we'll see more of the same this year, and maybe more of the same next year.

by smedley on Aug 6, 2007 8:46 PM PDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Frandsen's "LACK" OF TALENT
The kid made it up to the show in a year and a half....If the kid doesnt have talent then why did he make it up because he is gritty, because he is a gamer. No because the kid has a lifetime 330 average in the minors, with a ton of doubles, a lot of RBI's, and a ton of runs scored.  Here is the question you guys need to ask yourselves, by him playing every other position besides second base dont you think that might take a toll on his body and mind.  The kid can flat out rake, everyone has seen it, he doesnt play every day like A LOT of these young rookies.  Look at Pedroia with the Red Sox is abismal 110 April, the Red Sox continued to stick with him and he went for torrid months of May and June and settled in nice.  Whereas Frandsen continues to sit and its obvious with timing and ABs Frandsen continues to miss pitches that he will drive.  The continued patience by the Utility guy will pay off, but in your guys computer based analysis you guys want to give up on him.  For a utility guy in his first season lets just say from a lot of professionals scouts standpoint he is above average for the job.  And oh by the way the kid in 30 ABs with RISP he is hitting 400....pretty bad I guess

by giganteball on Aug 7, 2007 11:54 AM PDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

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