Out with the bad, in with the bad....
Counterpoint: Typical fan impatience. The Giants need to figure out if any of their young players can play, but they'll need to move some of the old guys first. The team's probably exposing all of the veterans to waivers. If guys like Durham, Feliz, or Klesko get hot, maybe a team will want them on the roster.
Point: No one's going to take Durham with another year on his contract even if he goes 40 for his next 41. He's done, he's not a part of the future, he needs to sit.
Counterpoint: Maybe the Giants will kick in a couple of million to move him. The point is that you can't showcase these players from the bench.
Point: And they won't let you showcase a bobbing-for-apples-coughed-on-by-a-guy-with-tuberculosis booth at the county fair. So why would you try?
Counterpoint: What? That doesn't make....
Point: No one wants these players. Klesko, maybe. Kline, sure. Everyone else? Forget it.
Counterpoint: That's what folks were saying about Matt Morris, too.
Point: That was a fluke. I have no problem with keeping Klesko and Kline on the field, but every game without Fred Lewis is an abomination. Every game without Kevin Frandsen is an abomination. Nate Schierholtz should be up and playing five days a week.
Counterpoint: Kevin Frandsen is a prospect like Kim Batiste was a prospect. Do you want to find out if he can play? Here's a quick and accurate test: If Kevin Frandsen is using a wood bat while he's hitting, that's nature's way of telling you that he can't hit.
Point: Hey, he's a career .300 hitter in the minors, and he leaves more scrappiness behind in his used Kleenex than most players have in their entire bodies.
Counterpoint: The problem with your strategy is that the only interesting players in the Giants system are outfielders, and the Giants' outfield is comprised of the franchise cash cow and two huge contracts. You aren't going to have a chance to move the contracts without playing the players. If Randy Winn finishes the season over .300, maybe another team will take the contract for the last two years. If Dave Roberts ends the season on a hot streak, maybe Boston will trade for him, encase him in carbonite, and display him at the entrance to Fenway.
Point: Winn and Roberts are boring.
Counterpoint: They'll be boring for several more years if they aren't traded, and benchies making close to $10M per season are impossible to trade.
Point: Why does this team have 15 different centerfielders?
Counterpoint: I don't know. The same kind of thing happens to me when I go to Costco. All of a sudden, I'm like, "Hey, what in the world do I need with 48 boxes of Pop-Tarts?" Then I laugh at myself and move on. It's kind of like that, except instead of toaster pastries, they're human beings who are paid millions of dollars to play a specific role on a sports team. I can totally relate. Po-tay-to, po-tah-to.
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85 comments
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Re: Out with the bad, in with the bad....
by MikeyJ on
Aug 6, 2007 1:21 PM PDT
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Re: Out with the bad, in with the bad....
After the final trade deadline is crossed Roberts, Aurilia, Durham, and Winn need to sit. Lewis, Frandsen, Davis, Schierholtz should all get the majority of the playing time over the vets, if the transition isn't made by then it'll just be ridiculous.
by Keenlow on
Aug 6, 2007 1:23 PM PDT
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Re: Out with the bad, in with the bad....
by Aadik on
Aug 6, 2007 1:23 PM PDT
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Re: Out with the bad, in with the bad....
by mxmob33 on
Aug 6, 2007 1:25 PM PDT
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Re: Out with the bad, in with the bad....
by Aadik on
Aug 6, 2007 1:29 PM PDT
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Re: Out with the bad, in with the bad....
by Cookyman on
Aug 6, 2007 1:31 PM PDT
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gospel truth
fucking pathetic
by delorean on
Aug 6, 2007 1:44 PM PDT
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Re: Out with the bad, in with the bad....
by Cookyman on
Aug 6, 2007 1:28 PM PDT
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Re: Out with the bad, in with the bad....
by mxmob33 on
Aug 6, 2007 1:35 PM PDT
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Re: Out with the bad, in with the bad....
by Mark carry on on
Aug 6, 2007 1:30 PM PDT
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One last hurrah for the old guys
by wilriv21 on
Aug 6, 2007 1:35 PM PDT
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Re: Out with the bad, in with the bad....
And really, NO ONE wants Durham.
by AngelintheInfield on
Aug 6, 2007 1:36 PM PDT
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Re: Out with the bad, in with the bad....
by War on
Aug 6, 2007 3:42 PM PDT
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Re: Out with the bad, in with the bad....
If it's the same bat...at the same plate...what friggin' difference does it make where you were standing ten minutes ago?
by victor frankenstein on
Aug 6, 2007 4:19 PM PDT
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Don't answer that here...
by victor frankenstein on
Aug 6, 2007 4:21 PM PDT
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Re: Don't answer that here...
But if your name is Kevin Frandsen, and you're not quite able to play multiple positions with much aplomb, I imagine that it would start to get into your head that maybe you suck at what you're doing, and various aspects of your game start to suffer. Again, I'm no psychiatrist, but I'd think it just has to do with losing confidence and having issues with how you play overall. If Frandsen stays at 2B where he's comfortable, maybe he maintains his confidence with the bat and puts together better numbers.
I think we've all seen enough of him at shortstop, 3rd, and rightfield to know his glove starts losing its luster pretty quickly. I'm betting that can rattle him. Again, just guessing.
by JRPhillips on
Aug 6, 2007 5:12 PM PDT
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Re: Out with the bad, in with the bad....
However, I'm wary of the "give him a steady position and he'll turn into a consistent hitter" theory. Let's call it the Feliz Principle, after the player who has proven it wrong so thoroughly. A lot of fans, myself included, were hoping that once Feliz was playing third every day, he'd improve at the plate. But he's done just the opposite.
Now, it's by no means a given that everyone will follow his trajectory (thank Xochipilli), but I really don't want to count on it.
by EliminateMe on
Aug 6, 2007 5:11 PM PDT
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Re: Out with the bad, in with the bad....
by Pants Man on
Aug 6, 2007 5:27 PM PDT
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Re: Out with the bad, in with the bad....
Dave Roberts: I know.
by nostocksjustbonds on
Aug 6, 2007 1:42 PM PDT
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Re: Out with the bad, in with the bad....
by Goofus on
Aug 6, 2007 1:55 PM PDT
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Re: Out with the bad, in with the bad....
by nostocksjustbonds on
Aug 6, 2007 1:43 PM PDT
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Re: Out with the bad, in with the bad....
by Whipping Boy on
Aug 6, 2007 1:45 PM PDT
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Re: Out with the bad, in with the bad....
by nostocksjustbonds on
Aug 6, 2007 2:09 PM PDT
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Re: Out with the bad, in with the bad....
BLB - LF
Rajai - CF
Lewis - RF
Winn - 3B
Ortmeier - SS
Roberts - 2B
Schierholtz - 1B
Feliz - C (he played lots of left field in '05)
Lowry - P
by delorean on
Aug 6, 2007 1:53 PM PDT
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Re: Out with the bad, in with the bad....
by Pants Man on
Aug 6, 2007 1:56 PM PDT
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Re: Out with the bad, in with the bad....
by Cookyman on
Aug 6, 2007 3:11 PM PDT
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Re: Out with the bad, in with the bad....
There should be some sort of compromise possible here. Even if Durham and Winn remain starters, they don't need to play every damn day, and Roberts should never be in the lineup vs. a lefty.
by Pants Man on
Aug 6, 2007 1:59 PM PDT
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Re: Out with the bad, in with the bad....
by Kitspool on
Aug 6, 2007 2:41 PM PDT
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What I say...
by hammystyle on
Aug 6, 2007 2:46 PM PDT
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better make it 2013
CF - Rocco Baldelli
SS - Bobby Crosby
3b - Joe Crede
LF - Bonds
1B - Carlos Delgado
RF - Jim Edmonds
2b - Mark Loretta
C - Gregg Zaun
SP - Zito, Cain, Linc, Mad Bum, Jamie Moyer
Closer: Joe Borowski
by nostocksjustbonds on
Aug 6, 2007 2:57 PM PDT
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Highest SORP rating in history!
by delorean on
Aug 6, 2007 3:03 PM PDT
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Re: Highest SORP rating in history!
by nostocksjustbonds on
Aug 6, 2007 3:11 PM PDT
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Re: Highest SORP rating in history!
by EliminateMe on
Aug 6, 2007 4:36 PM PDT
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Re: Highest SORP rating in history!
by delorean on
Aug 6, 2007 4:39 PM PDT
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Re: Highest SORP rating in history!
by EliminateMe on
Aug 6, 2007 4:45 PM PDT
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Re: Highest SORP rating in history!
by nostocksjustbonds on
Aug 6, 2007 5:26 PM PDT
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Re: Out with the bad, in with the bad....
by BondOrBust on
Aug 6, 2007 3:14 PM PDT
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Re: Out with the bad, in with the bad....
by nostocksjustbonds on
Aug 6, 2007 3:18 PM PDT
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Re: Out with the bad, in with the bad....
by E Ticket on
Aug 6, 2007 5:01 PM PDT
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Re: Out with the bad, in with the bad....
by out machine on
Aug 6, 2007 3:31 PM PDT
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Re: Out with the bad, in with the bad....
Roberts/ Davis
Omar
Klesko
Bonds
Winn
Molina
Feliz
Durham
Pitcher
by Goofus on
Aug 6, 2007 3:45 PM PDT
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Re: Out with the bad, in with the bad....
by E Ticket on
Aug 6, 2007 5:06 PM PDT
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Tonight's game
vr, Xei
by Xeifrank on
Aug 6, 2007 3:51 PM PDT
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Re: Tonight's game
by EliminateMe on
Aug 6, 2007 4:40 PM PDT
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Re: Tonight's game
by Tajiri on
Aug 6, 2007 4:47 PM PDT
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Re: Tonight's game
by BawLa on
Aug 6, 2007 5:04 PM PDT
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Wavier wire
I've looked around and can't see any record of them being offered up to the wire.
by CEO of the William VanLandingham FanClub on
Aug 6, 2007 4:07 PM PDT
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Re: Wavier wire
by delorean on
Aug 6, 2007 4:10 PM PDT
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Re: Wavier wire
by nostocksjustbonds on
Aug 6, 2007 5:28 PM PDT
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Re: Wavier wire
by Goofus on
Aug 7, 2007 10:14 AM PDT
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Re: Out with the bad, in with the bad....
by ektrod on
Aug 6, 2007 4:55 PM PDT
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Re: Out with the bad, in with the bad....
by E Ticket on
Aug 6, 2007 5:08 PM PDT
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Re: Out with the bad, in with the bad....
by out machine on
Aug 6, 2007 5:00 PM PDT
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Re: Out with the bad, in with the bad....
by Kitspool on
Aug 6, 2007 5:03 PM PDT
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Re: Out with the bad, in with the bad....
by BawLa on
Aug 6, 2007 5:05 PM PDT
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Re: Out with the bad, in with the bad....
by BawLa on
Aug 6, 2007 5:07 PM PDT
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Re: Out with the bad, in with the bad....
so the next real time we can trade him is next years trading deadline
sitting him for the rest of the year won't hurt his value either
so I suggest sit him for rest of year and then have him start next yes -- I should have a bounce back year plus the usual salary drive
by melottfan on
Aug 6, 2007 5:13 PM PDT
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Re: Out with the bad, in with the bad....
by nostocksjustbonds on
Aug 6, 2007 5:30 PM PDT
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Re: Out with the bad, in with the bad....
by E Ticket on
Aug 6, 2007 5:48 PM PDT
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Re: Out with the bad, in with the bad....
by EliminateMe on
Aug 6, 2007 5:51 PM PDT
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Re: Out with the bad, in with the bad....
by E Ticket on
Aug 6, 2007 5:56 PM PDT
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Re: Out with the bad, in with the bad....
by Whipping Boy on
Aug 6, 2007 6:04 PM PDT
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Re: Out with the bad, in with the bad....
by Natto on
Aug 6, 2007 11:16 PM PDT
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Re: Out with the bad, in with the bad....
But when it's down to trying to move people via waivers, isn't that an admission that the players in question were semi-valueless before?
I think the idea is: play them and beg for a trade in the meantime. Any trade. If salary can be dumped, super, but at some point paying Klesko to throw his helmet in Tampa is worth every penny for the rest of the year, just like it's worth every penny to inflate the earnings of Miami-area grocers and restaurant operators by paying Boonitez to pitch there. If the applicable Fresno spare part replacement turns out to be Jack Cust II, so much the better.
BB
by BlackDougal on
Aug 6, 2007 5:23 PM PDT
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Re: Out with the bad, in with the bad....
You cannot trade any of this shit, including Bochy and Up In Smokebrain Flannery. All you can do is try to kill it and hope you can scrape most of it off your shoe before the street sweepers cruise by Third and King Street.
by E Ticket on
Aug 6, 2007 5:51 PM PDT
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Re: Out with the bad, in with the bad....
by jponry on
Aug 6, 2007 5:31 PM PDT
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Re: Out with the bad, in with the bad....
by jponry on
Aug 6, 2007 5:32 PM PDT
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Re: Out with the bad, in with the bad....
by E Ticket on
Aug 6, 2007 5:53 PM PDT
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Re: Out with the bad, in with the bad....
That is the sum total of the Giants Player Development Syllabus under Jack Hiatt for the past 16 years. At least what I could skim from Retrosheet.org his is the sum total of homegrown position players to hit the Giants roster since 1992, the first season of Hiatt's stewardship over the farm system. The list is neither long nor distinguished
See:
Tony Torcato
JR Phillips
Brian Dallimore
Lance Niekro
Todd Linden
Mike Benjamin
Craig Colbert
Jay Canizaro
Rikkert Faneyte
John Patterson
Erik Johnson
Marvin Benard
Steve Decker
Dante Powell
Royce Clayton
Bill Mueller
Charlie Hayes
Armando Rios
Jacob Cruz
Justin Knoedler
Dan Ortmeier
Angel Chavez
Adam Shabala
Doug Clark
Travis Ishikawa
Chad Santos
Dax Jones
Marcus Jensen
Calvin Murray
Pedro Feliz
Edwards Guzman
Cody Ransom
Yorvit Torrealba
Trey Lunsford
Francisco Santos
Jason Ellison
Carlos Valderrama
by E Ticket on
Aug 6, 2007 5:47 PM PDT
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Re: Out with the bad, in with the bad....
Well, thank goodness Craig Colbert found his true calling in comedy. He's got a great show.
by JRPhillips on
Aug 6, 2007 5:54 PM PDT
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Re: Out with the bad, in with the bad....
by E Ticket on
Aug 6, 2007 5:57 PM PDT
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Re: Out with the bad, in with the bad....
by Mike Benjamin Hit King on
Aug 7, 2007 1:13 AM PDT
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Re: Out with the bad, in with the bad....
Royce Clayton
Bill Mueller
Charlie Hayes
These guys ended up being pretty decent major leaguers with fairly long careers. Mueller won a batting title in Boston and Clayton has done pretty well for himself, particularly has a defender.
2nd Tier
Pedro Feliz
Can get hot, but for the most part is a starting everyday 3b defensively, but pretty putrid with the bat over the whole season.
3rd Tier
Marvin Benard
Yorvit Torrealba
Mike Benjamin
Occasional starters/legit platoon players. Benjamin probably exceeded his physical abilities. Benard was basically Randy Winn without the defensive abilities.
The rest is garbage. However, the book is probably still out on Ortmeier, though he probably will never be more than a 4th OF.
So yeah, make Hiatt the head of pitcher scouting and get someone who knows hitters to be in charge of that.
I find it pretty lazy that every year we hear how the Giants are really good at scouting and drafting pitching so they just go for that. That's inexcusable for a major league team. If they need help developing hitters, go out and get someone who knows them and can develop them. Shit. How hard could that fucking be to understand?
by nostocksjustbonds on
Aug 6, 2007 6:05 PM PDT
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Re: Out with the bad, in with the bad....
Ryan Howard
M. Cabrera
Pujols
Jose Reyes
Joe Mauer
Justin Morneau
Jimy Rollins
Chase Utely
and so on. Guys that can carry a team for a couple of weeks, or get pitched around as a matter of course, or can take over a game a half dozen times a year.
I would put Mueller as 2nd Tier...good steady career, not specatacular, guys that help you turn your lineup over and wear down pitchers in the process.
Clayton, Feliz, Hayes were/are guys that are bottom of the lineup guys on decent teams. They are 3rd tier players barely hanging onto starting jobs only because they have bigger contracts than comparable minimum wagers who may actually be a little better, but just don't have the connections or the "veteran savvy" yet.
Bernard, Torrieaba, Benjamin are the poster children for why MLB has 4 too many teams.
by E Ticket on
Aug 6, 2007 6:16 PM PDT
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Re: Out with the bad, in with the bad....
by Takimoto on
Aug 6, 2007 5:57 PM PDT
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Re: Out with the bad, in with the bad....
by Whipping Boy on
Aug 6, 2007 6:00 PM PDT
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Re: Out with the bad, in with the bad....
by nostocksjustbonds on
Aug 6, 2007 6:06 PM PDT
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Re: Out with the bad, in with the bad....
On a positive note. Once Bonds breaks the record, you will be able to walk up to PacBell anytime you want and get tickets.
by E Ticket on
Aug 6, 2007 6:08 PM PDT
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Re: Out with the bad, in with the bad....
R. Davis cf
O. Vizquel ss
R. Winn rf
B. Bonds lf
B. Molina c
R. Durham 2b
P. Feliz 1b
K. Frandsen 3b
T. Lincecum
by SFG on
Aug 6, 2007 6:35 PM PDT
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Re: Out with the bad, in with the bad....
And Durham? I have no idea what Bochy is thinking. None.
By the way, did anyone see the piece in the Chronicla about how none of the Giants took batting practice the other night? Is that normal? Or are these guys just old and view playing on the Giants as some kind of deserved pension?
by SFG on
Aug 6, 2007 6:39 PM PDT
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Re: Out with the bad, in with the bad....
by E Ticket on
Aug 6, 2007 6:58 PM PDT
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Re: Out with the bad, in with the bad....
by mike aldrete fan club president on
Aug 6, 2007 8:09 PM PDT
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Re: Out with the bad, in with the bad....
So what to do? Unless you plan on eating the contract, you can't really bench a guy with a contract that extends beyond this year. Aside from Benitez, I can't think of a single contract they've eaten. My guess is that we'll see more of the same this year, and maybe more of the same next year.
by smedley on
Aug 6, 2007 8:46 PM PDT
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Frandsen's "LACK" OF TALENT
by giganteball on
Aug 7, 2007 11:54 AM PDT
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