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Ranting, but not raving

This is a bad team. Also, water is wet and fire is hot. Those secrets were never really in the bag. But this is the most boring team ever assembled. That's the worst transgression of the 2007 San Francisco Giants. Think about how hard that was to do - the team was spotted the best pitching prospect in baseball and a legend chasing a record, and it's still the least-watchable team of all-time. Endless stretches of non-offense. Forty-pitch innings after twenty-five-pitch innings after thirty-pitch innings after thirty-pitch innings. Welcome to Purgatory.

Even during the good starts from guys like Zito, Lowry, and Cain, they usually nibble or lose command for extended stretches. Matt Morris has had a fine season, but he's only had one start (against the A's) that was more interesting than a city council meeting. The bullpen isn't filled with dominating electric arms, it's filled with sometimes-effective, candlelit arms. All of the pitchers throw kinda hard, they all have imperfect control, and they all lack an overpowering strikeout pitch. It's been a decent bullpen, don't get me wrong. Just boring.

Picture someone being buried alive. Imagine that person's plan for survival is to swallow every shovelful of dirt until the person doing the shoveling runs out of dirt. That's what it's like to watch Omar Vizquel, Rich Aurilia, Ray Durham, Pedro Feliz and Dave Roberts hit. Every once in a while, one of those four will do something that resembles anything, and that's like a big, satisfying swallow of dirt. Heck, maybe half of a shovelful's worth. That'll buy some time. Good for them. But the advantage will never be theirs. And it's kind of tedious.

If that image is hard to imagine, try replacing the word "dirt" with "suck". So, like, they're just in a hole, having suck shoveled upon them as they try and swallow the suck, but that just makes them suck more! What to do? There's no time to talk about this, dammit, just keep swallowing the suck! So they're swallowing the suck, trying to chew up the suck as fast as they can, and suck is dribbling down their chins, suck is in their eyes and hair, and they look skyward to plea for help, but that's just a waste of time they don't have - they have to keep chewing the suck, swallowing the suck, and then going back for more. That's their only chance!

Sounds tense, doesn't it? It's not. It's boring.

Sucking is inevitable. But there's no upside to the hitters who are sucking. If Fred Lewis rakes a double in the middle of a slump, that's great. Maybe it's indicative of something larger - some sort of visible development that will carry over into the future. If Rich Aurilia rakes a double in the middle of a slump, it doesn't mean anything. Even a blind squirrel, and all that.  My plan for making the team more interesting:

  • Lewis starts everyday after the trade deadline. Roberts and Winn lose playing time.
  • Nate Schierholtz is called up, and he becomes the fourth outfielder. Roberts and Winn lose playing time.
  • Brian Horwitz takes over for Ryan Klesko after Klesko is traded. I know that is going to be an offensive downgrade, and I know Horwitz isn't ever going to have the bat for first, but he'd be interesting to watch. Good is out of reach. Interesting has a chance. Klesko's wild, powerless swings were fun to watch for about a month.
  • Kevin Frandsen plays every day. He hasn't shown anything at the major league level, but if there's a 20% chance he'll improve, it ain't going to happen while he sits on the bench.
  • Pedro Feliz goes away. Great game last night, Pedro. Now go away.
It's hard to know exactly how to deborify the Giants until after the trade deadline. Maybe the team will get a young and exciting player for a veteran. We can hope.

And thank you, Tim Lincecum. Thank you for being the copy of National Geographic in the dentist's waiting room. It means a lot.

Comment starter: What would make this team more interesting to you?

0 recs  |  Comment 182 comments

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Re: Ranting, but not raving
The advantage of this team being so boring is that I no longer waste 10-15 hours a week watching them suck.  Until the Giants make their team interesting again (by following Grant's above suggestions) I will only watch them when I've already seen the Law and Order episodes playing at the same time.  
Zealously advocating for Nate the Great since 2007.

by orangeandblackattack on Jul 25, 2007 10:37 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Re: Ranting, but not raving
But then there's also the CSI episodes on Spike at the same time too!

by sfgfan on Jul 25, 2007 10:49 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Ranting, but not raving
Actually, I can't agree. A team that loses this many is, by definition, hard to watch. But I think a lot of the story lines are a lot more interesting than the bad Giants teams of the 70's and 80's. You've got HOF's like Bonds and Vizquel struggling toward the finish line, a generally likable group of rookies struggling (against the weight of marginal talent) to prove they belong, the enigma of Feliz (ok, maybe enigma is too kind a word but I do have a soft spot for great fielders) and some great young pitchers -- well, I won't go on because so many of the Coven will lose their lunches but I think I've lived through more numbing times with my loyalties intact.

by NearestNorwich on Jul 25, 2007 10:43 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Re: Ranting, but not raving
I have to disagree. The bad Giants teams of the 70s had a lot of exciting young talent sprinkled around.  The OF of Matthews, Maddox, and Bonds was most certainly not boring. And they were quickly replaced by Jack Clark and Larry Herndon -- again not boring. The 85 team was certainly hard to watch but Chili was still around. Leonard was heating up. Scott Garrelts taking form, Krukow being Krukow. And the next year Clark and Thompson showed up.  There were enough young players coming up (and too soon moving on) to keep things interesting.  

by Roger on Jul 25, 2007 11:27 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Ranting, but not raving
That's what I don't get.  We have exciting young players like Cain, Lincecum, Sanchez, and Lowry pitching right now.  And Lewis has been pretty exciting too, grand slams, cycle, and a .749 OPS and 98 OPS+ is not that bad for a rookie.  It is as good or better than the OPS of D-backs prospects that people drool over:  Jackson (.764 OPS/97 OPS+), Drew (.672/72), Young (.706/78), Quentin (.649/78)

Matthews/Maddox/Bonds, yeah, they were pretty exciting, plus don't forget Kingman hitting homers, cycles, grandslams as a 3B his first season, that was pretty exciting.  Plus you can't forget John the Count Montefusco.  Hard to compare with all that.  But that was when the team was winning or recently winning.  Most of them were gone by 75, and the OF trio only lasted two seasons together.

Herndon was exciting for exactly half a year or so, his first half year with us, I guess that memory lasted for you but I just remember my dashed hopes in comparison to the potential that first half portended.  Clark was the only beacon of hope during those years for me, then we got that pile of crap from the Cards for him.  But I would take Cain and Lincecum over Jack The Ripper Clark, I love the big strikeout pitchers like them and Montefusco.

I never found Chili to be that exciting, I guess all that talk about the next Willie Mays spoiled him for me.  Plus he never hit for that high an average while with us nor that many homers.

Leonard, one flap down, Hac-man, was exciting.  Garrelts I loved but found as exciting as an accountant.  The only excitement I had with him was his near one-hitter, which I can still remember exactly were I was - in the middle of the parking lot of the Garlic Festival, swearing at the radio.

Krukow was always exciting, yes, then the addition of Clark and Thompson, then Williams and Mitchell soon afterward.  But those were not really losing years, were they...

And I'll note again, most of these remembrances count 2-3 players of note, well, I find Cain, Lincecum, Lowry, Lewis, and Sanchez to be pretty exciting.  Chili's first year:  100 OPS+.  Herndon's first year:  95 OPS+ and that was his high point, essentially, with the Giants.  Maddox:  103 OPS+.  Even Jack Clark's first year:  84 OPS+, 102 AB, 2 HR, 10 RBI, .225/.277/.382/.659, not so exciting a first year or second year even, it was his third year before he came into his power.  

"I'm a Giant now" and "I like watching the ball get up there" - Wendell Fairley "I'm really proud to be on this team." - Nate Schierholtz

by obsessivegiantscompulsive on Jul 25, 2007 3:02 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Ranting, but not raving
Wow, Lowry may be alot of things, but I never would have guessed exciting was one of them.  Lincecum is, no doubt. But in saying that Maddox and Matthews and even Herndon were exciting, I wasn't referring to the thought of future potential, I mean they made exciting plays on the field. Gary Matthews running through the fence to catch a fly ball. Garry Maddox smooth strides. And yes, the Count predicting his strikeout totals. I'll never forget Larry Herndon scoring a game winning run from 2B on a Sac Fly to CF -- that was exciting.  It was fun to watch. It sticks in my memory. That's what I meant.  They weren't very good (though by record I imagine better than this bunch) but a decent day at the park. (And BTW, Maddox and Matthews were both on the Giants of '75, Matthews didn't leave until after the '76 season.)

by Roger on Jul 25, 2007 3:13 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Ranting, but not raving
I find any pitcher who can keep his ERA in the mid-3's pretty exciting, especially when he has his patented August run of dominating starts, that has been very exciting for me.  And that's for a whole month, not like selected plays that you quote for those players.  How could a 5-0 month with a 1-something ERA not be fun and exciting?

I assumed you meant the trio of Bonds/Maddox/Matthews and Bonds was gone in 75.

"I'm a Giant now" and "I like watching the ball get up there" - Wendell Fairley "I'm really proud to be on this team." - Nate Schierholtz

by obsessivegiantscompulsive on Jul 25, 2007 4:25 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Ranting, but not raving
Well I'd say I appreciate a pitcher with a mid-3.00 ERA, but I can't really say that numbers of any kind get me very excited.

by Roger on Jul 25, 2007 4:50 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Ranting, but not raving
He's doing a nice job of limiting runs, but I wouldn't really call the current incarnation of Lowry (nibble nibble walk walk get out of jam) exciting.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.

by jponry on Jul 25, 2007 4:54 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Ranting, but not raving
Nerve racking would be more like it.  Lowry's got the Rueter shamrock going.
Sabean Trek: The Search for 100 Losses

by ToddLindenHasAPosse on Jul 25, 2007 5:18 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Ranting, but not raving
They'd be a lot more interesting if they used more awesome words like "deborify."
Bruce Bochy gets his big head from me.

by Stuttering John Tamargo on Jul 25, 2007 10:44 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Re: Ranting, but not raving
Frandsen needs to play everyday.  He will improve with more experience because it's been his pitch selection that is forcing him into 2-strike holes.  Also he needs to play consistently at a position.  Trade Pedro or Durham and put him at 3B or 2B permanently.  His defense will improve by doing this.

by BCsteve on Jul 25, 2007 10:49 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Re: Ranting, but not raving
I agree with this. Lest those of us with short memories forget, there was a stretch of play Frandsen had in mid-May (when, admittedly, the entire team was playing much better than it is now) where he was actually starting to figure things out at the plate, he was playing at second base only (which is clearly his best position) instead of being thrown around the infield and outfield, and not coincidentally, he was playing every day. No, he's not the second coming of Jeff Kent, but he's better than this.
Lon Simmons' adopted dad.

by Kitspool on Jul 25, 2007 11:25 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Ranting, but not raving
Ah, some people who agree that Frandsen has shown more.  Taking all his games with 3 PA or more as proxies for games started, I calculated his batting line:  .264/.353/.379/.732, 12 BB/8 K, 87 AB, 8 runs, 8 RBI, 1 HR.  That's an OK line for an average 2B in the majors, plus he has a high OBP, which is more important for his value as a hitter.

I prefer him at 2B too, but if we can start him at 3B to get him ABs and regular starts, all the better.  Durham is still cold and I think it's time to acknowledge that it is related to that groin problem he had in early May; they should just DL him for 2 weeks and let Frandsen start.  Then with the long stretch of games, rest Durham twice a week, rest Feliz twice a week, rest Vizquel twice a week, and that's basically regular starts for Frandsen.

"I'm a Giant now" and "I like watching the ball get up there" - Wendell Fairley "I'm really proud to be on this team." - Nate Schierholtz

by obsessivegiantscompulsive on Jul 25, 2007 3:10 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Ranting, but not raving
Right now, Barry Bonds is downright painful to watch.  Trying way too hard.  Balance and timing is all messed up.  Maybe if he can somehow get past this record thing, he can settle down and be himself again?  I mean, right now, Roberts and Winn are getting on base and then Durham and Barry are just a black hole in the middle of the lineup.

Trade suggestion:  Atlanta looks like it needs help in the bullpen.  How about Steve Kline and Kevin Correia for Kala Kaaihue and Brent Lillibridge?  There's a short article about Kala in BA today.

by DrBGiantsfan on Jul 25, 2007 10:51 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Re: Ranting, but not raving
Atlanta looks like it needs help in the bullpen.  How about Steve Kline and Kevin Correia for Kala Kaaihue and Brent Lillibridge?  There's a short article about Kala in BA today.

I'd do that. The Braves wouldn't.

by Grant on Jul 25, 2007 12:48 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Ranting, but not raving
Yeah, that sounded lopsided to me too...but what about Kline and Correia for just one of those two?
Proud adoptive father of the All-Father and his 2.29 ERA

by EliminateMe on Jul 25, 2007 12:51 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Ranting, but not raving
I'd do that. The Braves probably wouldn't, though I might be selling Correia a bit short.

by Grant on Jul 25, 2007 12:56 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Anybody?
Anybody we have, or combination of anybody's that might land Lillibridge and Kala?  The Braves also need a LH bat at 1B, no?  How about Correia, Kline, Klesko and pretty much anybody else they want from the farm system?  Anybody off the table on our side?  Nate? Henry Sosa? Clay Tanner?  2007 draftees, of course can't be traded yet.

by DrBGiantsfan on Jul 25, 2007 1:28 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Anybody?
They are reportedly one of the few teams interested in Matt Morris, I imagine he could land at least one of those two guys.
Barry Zito: Mike Hampton with a guitar

by JakeS on Jul 25, 2007 3:39 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Ranting, but not raving
I find your ideas intriguing and would like to subscribe to your newsletter. My one quibble is that, although I'm Fred Lewis's biggest fan, if he and Schierholtz are on the major-league roster it should be Lewis playing fourth outfield and Nate playing every day. Both are flawed players with a chance to be an every day major leaguer but I think that Nate has the bigger chance and upside.
Barry Zito: Mike Hampton with a guitar

by JakeS on Jul 25, 2007 10:56 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Re: Ranting, but not raving
Deborify #1: trade Durham to anybody that will have him (Indians?). Let Frandsen get consistent playing time at the only ML position he can handle. Leave him alone through next year, and bat him second.

Deborify #2: rest Bonds every other day, with Fred Lewis getting the spear-carrying role. Do not resign Bonds for next year under any circumstances. Lewis starts in LF next year, unless we trade for Balentien or better.

Deborify #3: trade any or all of Winn, Roberts, Klesko, Sweeney, Chulk, Correia, Hennessey, Kline, Feliz, Molina, or Vizquel for a good, young hitting prospect of the INF persuasion. Bring up said prospect in September. Mix well, serve when ready.  

Oh, and I don't want Nate anywhere near this collection of players until they are mostly gone, or until September call-up time.

Your 2012 NL ERA champion: Sergio Romo

by Lyle on Jul 25, 2007 11:06 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Re: Ranting, but not raving
I don't know about the no Bonds "under any circumstances" thing.  If the Giants are successful at unloading Winn and/or Roberts, I'd be fine with Bonds suiting up in black and orange again next season.  If at least one of Winn or Roberts is traded, then Nate or Fred will be relagated to 3.5th OF, as they'll get plenty of ABs (more than a 4th OF, at least) in place of Bonds.

by sfgfan on Jul 25, 2007 11:14 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Ranting, but not raving
Actually I agree with him, we don't need to resign Bonds regardless of his OPS. We could possibly have 40-50 million in free payroll by the end of winter if we are able to unload Winn and Morris. I don't understand why anyone wants to see Fred or Nate get the majority of playing time becuase there just not going to be good.  Everyone rips on the giants farm system and lack of hitters we produce so why the fuck would we put faith in these two guys.  It will be just as painfull when halfway through the 2008 season comes around and those guys are both hitting near the mendoza line.  If you want to make the team more interesting give 3 year contracts to Hunter , Burns and a guy like Jose Guillen. Then try to lowball someone like Eckstein to a 3 year deal as well.  Go out and try to get one quality arm in the bullpen.  I think this is very doable and it will make the Gaints a lot more competitive and fun to watch.  This will also bridge the gap between the time its going to take our youngster in the minors to develope.

by SabeanSupporter on Jul 25, 2007 11:43 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Ranting, but not raving
Is that C. Montgomery Burns?  He won't help us get any younger, but he might just make us more entertaining.

Oh, yeah, and Tori Hunter accepting a 3-year contract in his big "show me the money" walk year, that's funny, too.

by Roger on Jul 25, 2007 11:53 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Ranting, but not raving
Thats very doable. 3 with an option for 4

by SabeanSupporter on Jul 25, 2007 11:57 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Ranting, but not raving
After Carlos Lee signed for 6 years and Alfonso Soriano for 8, why would one of this year's premier FA sign a 3 year deal at the age of 32 (putting him back out on the market at 35 or 36)? Now's the year to cash in and guarantee salary for those risky mid- to late-30s decline years.

by Roger on Jul 25, 2007 12:07 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

No way a 32 yr old Hunter takes a 3 year deal
He'll see a similar deal to the one Carlos Lee signed I think, something like 6-100.

by awesomer on Jul 25, 2007 12:08 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: No way a 32 yr old Hunter takes a 3 year deal
I just dont see him getting as much as lee but i can see him sign for 5.

by SabeanSupporter on Jul 25, 2007 12:16 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Ned Colletti has mastered the 3 year deals
He targets, strikes fast and overpays like he has done with Rafael Furcal and Jason Schmidt. Would prefer a shorter 3 yr deal for more monies than an extended long-term deal.

by wilriv21 on Jul 25, 2007 12:22 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Ned Colletti has mastered the 3 year deals
I would ideally sign him for 4.  And referring to the guy who said why would he sign a 3 or 4 year deal when Lee and Soriano got 8 and 6.  Well the answer to that is, those guys offensive numbers are significantly better then Hunters and they have been doing it longer.  So I just dont see how he can get a minimum of 15 mil a year at 5 or six years.

by SabeanSupporter on Jul 25, 2007 12:28 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Ranting, but not raving
"If you want to make the team more interesting give 3 year contracts to Hunter , Burns and a guy like Jose Guillen. Then try to lowball someone like Eckstein to a 3 year deal as well."

That lineup would be very interesting. As in, it would be interesting to see if I could die from having diarrhea. Howie No Like. Bad Medicine.

Coming to you by proxy (I adopted: Dave Righetti!)

by howtheyscored on Jul 25, 2007 12:03 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Ranting, but not raving
Wow.

WOW.

Steve Kline: He's pretty okay!

by groug on Jul 25, 2007 12:10 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Ranting, but not raving
I'm starting to think SabeanSupporter is Grant under another name. When traffic is slow, he writes something so ridiculous and polemical and wrong-headed that people can't help but respond to it, thereby driving up page views and making the advertisers happy and keeping the rapacious SB Nation overlords at bay.

by Evan on Jul 25, 2007 12:29 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Ranting, but not raving
Perhaps he's just a dipshit, no?
Omar Vizquel to Big Sam, "Barton, Viduka, Rozenhal, Geremi, Deco even?...way to go Gaffer, keep up the great work!"

by PacBellBoozer on Jul 25, 2007 1:12 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Ranting, but not raving
I think SS might actually be Sabean himself.  Who else would think the above moves would be good?
Zealously advocating for Nate the Great since 2007.

by orangeandblackattack on Jul 25, 2007 1:29 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Ranting, but not raving
Now, that's an intriguing possibility...

by ololo3 on Jul 25, 2007 2:46 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Ranting, but not raving
If you want the pitching to go to waste and see the team struggle horribly then don't do anything

by SabeanSupporter on Jul 25, 2007 4:57 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Ranting, but not raving
I think the point is that since Hunter + Byrnes + Eckstein don't equal (and would likely be worse than) Bonds + Winn + Vizquel, we'd still be lousy next year and have even more bad contracts. That would be just ungodly stupid.
Barry Zito: Mike Hampton with a guitar

by JakeS on Jul 25, 2007 5:36 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Ranting, but not raving
If you really think about it it wouldn't be at all.  How you can even say that Hunter, Burns and Eckstein would be worse than Bonds, VIzquel and Winn is "ungodly stupid.  Bonds takes too many days off and  even though his OPS is good doesn't drive in nearly as much runs as a 4 hitter should. The contracts you would sign those guys to wouldn't be very long and why wouldn't we use some of our money to put together a competitive team.  The NL west is full of no offense/strong pitching.  The Padres hitting is just about if not worse than the Giants yet their probably going to make the playoffs.  None of our prospects are going to be mlb ready for at least 3 years.  Sorry i don't want to see Fred and Lewis in the 3 and 4 hole in our lineup.  Relying just on prospects to get the job done is very nieve

by SabeanSupporter on Jul 25, 2007 11:46 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Ranting, but not raving
Hunter would be a slight upgrade from Winn. (and could cost $12 million a year)
Byrnes would be a huge, monumental downgrade from Bonds.
Eckstein would be a slight upgrade from Vizquel.

Yeah, I don't see replacing those three with those three suddenly making the Giants anything more but a 90 loss team again.

Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.

by jponry on Jul 25, 2007 11:55 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Ranting, but not raving
What is you're justification that Hunter would be a slight upgrade from Winn.  Thats possibly the worst statement Ive ever heard.  Maybe in terms of OPS Byrnes would be a downgrade, but in terms of runs scored and rbi's he be much better. And Eckstein would be a huge upgrade from Vizquel.  His bat is about 50 times better

by SabeanSupporter on Jul 26, 2007 10:03 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Ranting, but not raving
So you're suggesting that despite getting on base less frequently, Byrnes would score more runs. Just guessing -- his teammates would knock him in more often cuz they like him?

Also, I just gotta know the secret to the math that makes (.275/.340/.357) x 50 = (.284/.350/.360)

by Roger on Jul 26, 2007 11:19 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Ranting, but not raving
If you add some rbi guys like torii hunter and Jose guillen.  YEah he would get knocked in a lot more and hed come a lot more cheap. And the fact that he plays every day, yes he would score more.  You're a typical stat head and you have to think of other numbers beside ops.  Not to mention he would be a major upgrade defensively in left feild.  You think Bonds is gonna take a put cut for next year?  You damn well better believe hes gonna want more, say around 20 mil.

by SabeanSupporter on Jul 26, 2007 1:03 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Ranting, but not raving
And to comment on the Eckstein statement.  Why dont we consider the fact that Eckstein is 8 years younger then Omar. And it is much more likely that he put up numbers like this year if we singed he for 08, so we can throw out those career numbers.

by SabeanSupporter on Jul 26, 2007 1:06 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Ranting, but not raving
Bonds already took a pay cut this year. So far his 2007 numbers are very similar to his 2006 numbers. Same batting performance + another year over 40 = demanding more money? Where do you get that?

And if you added some RBI guys behind Bonds, he would get knocked in a lot more, too. You're not comparing Byrnes to Bonds, you're comparing Byrnes+Hunter+Guillen to Bonds+Roberts+Winn.

Proud adoptive father of the All-Father and his 2.29 ERA

by EliminateMe on Jul 26, 2007 2:06 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Ranting, but not raving
He took a 2 million dollar paycut, but with incentive could be up to 20 mil.

by SabeanSupporter on Jul 26, 2007 2:18 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Ranting, but not raving
I think its safe to say omars numbers will look like this next year
243/293/294
And Ecksteins
298/340/364

by SabeanSupporter on Jul 26, 2007 1:09 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Ranting, but not raving
I still don't see the 50 times improvement, even without taking D into account.  And BTW, not only am I not a "typical" stathead -- I'm not a stathead at all. Don't even have one of them internet connections in my home. That doesn't mean I don't understand how the game of baseball is played, SS.

by Roger on Jul 26, 2007 1:54 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Ranting, but not raving
If there are two things that are by no stretch of the imagination "safe to say", then one of them is definitely predicting 2008 batting lines.
Proud adoptive father of the All-Father and his 2.29 ERA

by EliminateMe on Jul 26, 2007 2:08 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Ranting, but not raving
There's no way Hunter, "Burns", and Eckstein would be any better than Bonds, Winn, and Vizquel. Hunter is above average with the bat but is no superstar. Byrnes is having a career year that isn't likely going to be duplicated. And David Eckstein is David Eckstein. Also I wasn't aware Fred Lewis was two different people. Good to get that straightened out.
Barry Bombs gear | comics | Ray Durham is... yeah.

by Natto on Jul 26, 2007 12:00 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Ranting, but not raving
Since he has two first names ("Fred" and "Lewis"), he's worth twice as much as the typical player.  It's called the "Babe Ruth" rule and it also applies to Matt Morris.

Interestingly, my theory that Dave Roberts is worht three times the typical player ("Dave" + "Robert" + "Robert" = "Dave Roberts") has been pretty tough to prove thus far.)

Bold Prediction: Klesko will finish the 2007 season with at least 20 HRs. (OPS+ is 129 as of 7/1/07)

by Goofus on Jul 26, 2007 9:10 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Ranting, but not raving
Maybe it's Dave Robert's. Dave+whatever Robert has. Chances are what Robert has isn't very good.
Strikeouts are boring. Besides that, they're fascist. Not boring: Emmanuel Burriss. Not facist: THE RETURN OF SF Dugout

by BaronVonCurrentEvents on Jul 26, 2007 12:17 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Ranting, but not raving
Yeah I meant to say Nate "the saviour" of our franchise

by SabeanSupporter on Jul 26, 2007 10:04 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Ranting, but not raving
We need more Cammie Blackstone interviews with random people in the stands.
If you root for the Dodgers, the terrorists have already won.

by SF Pete on Jul 25, 2007 11:07 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Re: Ranting, but not raving
We just need Hope. That comes with youth. I think that this team is going to have a huge drop in ticket sales next season if they have a fourth straight losing season. Right now there just is no Hope for next year. I'm starting to force myself to watch games now. And I'm drinking more. My liver is going to love that in a couple years.
"I'd take pleasure in gutting you boy" Oh and ignore the spelling. I do.....

by someguynamedg on Jul 25, 2007 11:15 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Hope doesn't necessarily come with youth.
See: Munter, Scott, or Walker, Tyler, or Linden, Todd, or...
***

Succumb to the Enchanted t-shirt! Adopted dad of Minor Izzy

by hairball on Jul 25, 2007 1:06 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Hope doesn't necessarily come with youth.
The end result might not be great, but there's a difference between a 25-year-old and a 35-year-old:  One has upside.  The other doesn't.  Do you need the definition of hope, or can I stop there?

by JRPhillips on Jul 25, 2007 2:03 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

No, but...
...it is virtually guaranteed not to come with the 35-year-old.
Proud adoptive father of the All-Father and his 2.29 ERA

by EliminateMe on Jul 25, 2007 3:50 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Ranting, but not raving
Trade Morris and Lowry for either ML ready bats or top prospects, throwing in additional parts (Durham, et al.) if necessary to get it done.  Lowry's value cannot be any higher, unless his strikeout rate was higher.  He might just get you something in return.    I like Noah and will root for him, but I believe he is the best chip that offers us the best chance of improving sooner.  

Play said players you acquire immediately.  Use Sanchez as a starter the rest of the year and whomever makes sense as the fifth starter, because it just doesn't matter.  This season is over, trying to get back to 10 games under .500 should not be the goal.  

by out machine on Jul 25, 2007 11:17 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Re: Ranting, but not raving
Watching that game I realized the Giants had gone from bad to cruel.....1000s of fans sitting there in the 13th after falling behind by 3, then loading the bases and setting up an awesome ending....and your next three batters are Feliz, Molina and Lewis.

This team has had a special talent last couple years to be just good enough to stay close and rip your heart out at the end, nice to see they got some of that magic back last night.

by Stoned Slacker on Jul 25, 2007 11:19 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

I think the marketing team should run with that
They could probably rope in the "hoping for a car crash" type.
***

Succumb to the Enchanted t-shirt! Adopted dad of Minor Izzy

by hairball on Jul 25, 2007 1:05 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Ranting, but not raving
That magic never went away...

by ololo3 on Jul 25, 2007 2:48 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Ranting, but not raving
I used to like it when I knew were officially out of the running cause I could finally sit back and watch baseball without any pressure. But this just isn't fun at all.

by TedWillamsbobblehead on Jul 25, 2007 11:21 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

2007 San Francisco Giants?
Needs more dog.
Coming to you by proxy (I adopted: Dave Righetti!)

by howtheyscored on Jul 25, 2007 11:33 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Re: 2007 San Francisco Giants?
On the money.
Coming to you by proxy (I adopted: Dave Righetti!)

by howtheyscored on Jul 25, 2007 5:35 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Ranting, but not raving
Let's NOT put Russ Ortiz back in the rotation when one of the current starters goes away, okay? Pat Misch can take that spot instead. Or Jonathan Sanchez. Or Matt Palmer or Travis Blackley. Enough with the Russ Ortiz.

by Evan on Jul 25, 2007 11:42 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Re: Ranting, but not raving
One way this can roll is Ortiz starts and does well enough for us to trade aawy on a waiver-trade in August for a few prospects, like how we traded prospects to Orioles for Ponson.
"I'm a Giant now" and "I like watching the ball get up there" - Wendell Fairley "I'm really proud to be on this team." - Nate Schierholtz

by obsessivegiantscompulsive on Jul 25, 2007 3:17 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Ranting, but not raving
Ponson was not a waiver deal... in fact, he was probably one of the most sought-after pitchers on the market that year. Ortiz, no matter how well he does when he comes back, will never have the same value Ponson did in 03.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.

by jponry on Jul 25, 2007 3:24 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Ranting, but not raving
I realize that it's not exactly the same, but if Ortiz pitches as well as he did previously in his stints, there will be those GMs who remember the old Ortiz and willing to take a flier for a bunch of failed prospects, which is basically what the Orioles got from us.

I would also note that Ponson previous to that year was pretty ordinary to bad, so his value was mainly for what he was doing that season, and like has been mentioned about Morris, while he's wasn't that good, he was the best of the bunch and thus well-sought after.

"I'm a Giant now" and "I like watching the ball get up there" - Wendell Fairley "I'm really proud to be on this team." - Nate Schierholtz

by obsessivegiantscompulsive on Jul 25, 2007 4:21 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Ranting, but not raving
Well, Ainsworth and Hannaman weren't exactly failed prospects at the time of the trade.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.

by jponry on Jul 25, 2007 4:33 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Ranting, but not raving
Using hot girls as cheerleaders would make the Gigantes interesting.

(Or does that ruin the integrity of the game?)

by War on Jul 25, 2007 12:01 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Re: Ranting, but not raving
It's okay unless the cheerleaders take steroids.
Proud adoptive father of the All-Father and his 2.29 ERA

by EliminateMe on Jul 25, 2007 12:33 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Ranting, but not raving
Two words: Topless Tuesdays!
Bold Prediction: Klesko will finish the 2007 season with at least 20 HRs. (OPS+ is 129 as of 7/1/07)

by Goofus on Jul 25, 2007 12:46 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Ranting, but not raving
I think the Giants have a new Director of Marketing!

by War on Jul 25, 2007 2:22 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Ranting, but not raving
Now we're talking!  The Giants can pioneer a Sports tradition.

by ololo3 on Jul 25, 2007 2:50 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Ranting, but not raving
The Marlins have (had?) cheerleaders--pardon me, a "dance team", as do (did?) the Reds. At this point there's not a lot left to lose but becoming either of those teams is a pretty dire consequence.

Plus I like to enjoy my time at the ballpark. Traveling bands of skanks sort of sap my fun.

Strikeouts are boring. Besides that, they're fascist. Not boring: Emmanuel Burriss. Not facist: THE RETURN OF SF Dugout

by BaronVonCurrentEvents on Jul 25, 2007 2:30 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Ranting, but not raving
Sap your fun? You hang out with us, don't you?
Proud adoptive father of the All-Father and his 2.29 ERA

by EliminateMe on Jul 25, 2007 3:57 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Ranting, but not raving
Strangely ripping the Giants on their numerous failures is fun to me. In a horrible self-destructive sort of way.
Strikeouts are boring. Besides that, they're fascist. Not boring: Emmanuel Burriss. Not facist: THE RETURN OF SF Dugout

by BaronVonCurrentEvents on Jul 26, 2007 8:47 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Ranting, but not raving
You don't hang out in the Marina, do you?

by War on Jul 25, 2007 4:52 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Ranting, but not raving
I tend to stay away from places, people, and situations that make my head explode in the bad way. The Marina would be one of those places.
Strikeouts are boring. Besides that, they're fascist. Not boring: Emmanuel Burriss. Not facist: THE RETURN OF SF Dugout

by BaronVonCurrentEvents on Jul 26, 2007 8:46 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Ranting, but not raving
i once went to a blue jays game in '97 in which instead of "take me out to the ball game," they had a choreographed dance group in foul territory singing some song about getting up and moving the body. well, everyone stayed in their seats.
"If I can change and you can change, then everybody can change." Rocky Balboa, Rocky IV

by WithTechron on Jul 25, 2007 6:16 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Ranting, but not raving
This made me laugh, thank you.
Strikeouts are boring. Besides that, they're fascist. Not boring: Emmanuel Burriss. Not facist: THE RETURN OF SF Dugout

by BaronVonCurrentEvents on Jul 26, 2007 8:47 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Ranting, but not raving
Replacing Cammie Blackstone with Jessica Alba would be a start.
The Fringe was right.

by nostocksjustbonds on Jul 25, 2007 12:28 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Re: Ranting, but not raving
Replacing Cammie Blackstone with a tub of lard would be a start!
I used to be disgusted, but now I try to be amused!

by PLUChris on Jul 25, 2007 12:30 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Ranting, but not raving
. . .aren't they the same . . .?
Brian Anderson: generic name, unique talent.

by Anticon23 on Jul 25, 2007 4:26 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Ranting, but not raving
Fire Sabean. Hire Grant. In addition to GM duties, give him the title "Director of Sarcasm". Build performance incentives into his contract: extra $50K every time he makes fun of Steve Kline and gets it printed in the Chronicle, that kind of thing.
Proud adoptive father of the All-Father and his 2.29 ERA

by EliminateMe on Jul 25, 2007 12:32 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Re: Ranting, but not raving
"Eliminate Me" takes on a Bourne Identity type twist.

by ResDog on Jul 25, 2007 12:35 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Re: Ranting, but not raving
Before Trade Deadline:
  1. Cammie and FP are flied to China...one way.
  2. Lowry and position player traded for a great young talent.
  3. Morris and another player traded for a good young talent.
  4. Durham, Feliz, Aurilia, Roberts, Vizquel traded for any type of young talent, but done moreso to clear up more $$ for FA.
  5. Sweeney, Klesko, Kline, Hennessey, Correia traded for young talent.  These guys have more value and would likely bring back better young talent.
After trade deadline:
  1. Guillermo Rodriguez down, Justin Knoedler up.
  2. Frandsen plays 2B almost everyday after TD.
  3. Lewis goes to AAA, Schierholtz and Timpner up.
  4. Schierholtz and Timpner get PT with limited PT for Bonds, Winn and Roberts.
  5. Schierholtz learns 1B and puts on 15 lbs. of muscle.
  6. Sanchez down to AAA to become a starter with Misch.
  7. Ortiz up, starting role until Misch/Sanchez ready, then back to relief role.
  8. Wilson back up.
  9. Giese or Atchison can fill any holes.
I need old crusty vets like I need a nail driven into my brain.

by BawLa on Jul 25, 2007 12:42 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Re: Ranting, but not raving
I still don't get why you want to move Schierholtz to 1B, given our gaping holes in the OF. I also don't know how you expect him to put on 15 lbs of muscle, especially in the middle of a season.

I'd be happy to unload Sweeney but I think you seriously overestimate his trade value putting him in the more-value group.

Proud adoptive father of the All-Father and his 2.29 ERA

by EliminateMe on Jul 25, 2007 12:50 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Ranting, but not raving
Gaping holes in the OF can be fixed through free agency this year much easier than IF fixes.  There are virtually no 1st basemen available on the FA market besides Dunn...blech.  We need a 1B to bide us time until we can get a supreme player.  Nate is slugging 630 since being sent down to AAA.  I know he can't put on 15 lbs. right now, but we can start teaching him 1B right now.  Then in the offseason he can bulk up and really hone his power stroke.  Nate has decent speed, but not Lewis-type speed so I would rather sacrifice some of that speed to gain some significant increases in power.

I generally understand why you think I overestimate Sweeney's value, but it is hard to find a pinch hitter.  As a pinch hitter he is: .262/.392/.524 so you might be underestimating his PH value.  Look, I have been one that has been riding Mark all season long for underproducing, but he still has value for his specialty.  

I need old crusty vets like I need a nail driven into my brain.

by BawLa on Jul 25, 2007 1:05 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Ranting, but not raving
Unless he's traded Dunn will not be on the FA market. Also I don't know what the blech was for Dunn is awesome.

by awesomer on Jul 25, 2007 1:12 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Ranting, but not raving
Yeah...awesome at striking out.
I need old crusty vets like I need a nail driven into my brain.

by BawLa on Jul 25, 2007 1:17 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Ranting, but not raving
and at hitting for tons of power and getting on base.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.

by jponry on Jul 25, 2007 1:19 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Ranting, but not raving
Away from Cinci:

.231/.324/.473

In 182 AB away from Cinci - 12 HR, 31 RBI and 63 SO.

I need old crusty vets like I need a nail driven into my brain.

by BawLa on Jul 25, 2007 1:23 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Ranting, but not raving
And 50 bucks says that he has hit most of his away home runs in Houston and St. Louis.
I need old crusty vets like I need a nail driven into my brain.

by BawLa on Jul 25, 2007 1:28 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Ranting, but not raving
HOU: 5 HR
STL: 1 HR

Interestingly he has 5 in PNC Park.

Barry Bombs gear | comics | Ray Durham is... yeah.

by Natto on Jul 25, 2007 1:51 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Ranting, but not raving
My bad. That's against the teams. He only has 2 HR in Minute Maid. The distribution of HR in away parks is pretty even.
Barry Bombs gear | comics | Ray Durham is... yeah.

by Natto on Jul 25, 2007 1:53 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Ranting, but not raving
So when are you collecting your $50?

by Mike Benjamin Hit King on Jul 25, 2007 1:55 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Ranting, but not raving
Never...we didn't shake on it...hehe
I need old crusty vets like I need a nail driven into my brain.

by BawLa on Jul 25, 2007 1:57 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Ranting, but not raving
sue me
I need old crusty vets like I need a nail driven into my brain.

by BawLa on Jul 25, 2007 2:02 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Ranting, but not raving
Hey everyone!  This guy's just a big phony!
Steve Kline: He's pretty okay!

by groug on Jul 25, 2007 2:06 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Ranting, but not raving
He plays in Cinci which is one of the best parks to hit in.  Look at Aurilia's stats last year...that is why we signed him this year.  Dunn in our park would be detrimental.  He would strikeout 200 times and barely get to 20 homers.
I need old crusty vets like I need a nail driven into my brain.

by BawLa on Jul 25, 2007 1:19 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Ranting, but not raving
  1. Waste of air fare
  2. Chaya, right
  3. Chaya, right
  4. Won't get anyone with talent.  Be lucky to dump $
  5. Most likely they would get you c-grade bullpen arms and 5th OFs.  As an upside.
Redux:
  1. Deck chairs
  2. OK, I give you this one.
  3. Whatev
  4. Why limit BB's playing time, he's the only hitter worth watching AT ALL
  5. Roids.
  6. I suppose
  7. I suppose
  8. Why?
  9. What about RF/3B/SS holes and all the guys we traded for "young talent"

by zenbitz on Jul 25, 2007 2:36 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Ranting, but not raving
Well you're just chalk full of optimism.  I might even value 10% of what you say if you didn't give such snide and un-interesting replies.  
I need old crusty vets like I need a nail driven into my brain.

by BawLa on Jul 25, 2007 5:25 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Ranting, but not raving
Winn and Roberts take a Fredo-esque boat trip.

KNBR - This Morning - The Feliz love was overwhelming/sickening. A "Giants" fan called and said we should resign him and that he could learn better plate discipline. What year is it again? 2003? Feliz and his .289 OBP? Listen, all you Feliz lovers, I know you are out there. The only way you can get away with Feliz playing third is if you  have a Bonds in the OF, a Kent at 2B and a Burks-esque 1B/OF. 3B is a POWER position, like 1B. Unless you're Brooks Robninson or J.T. Snow, you have to hit and by default, get on base. In the words of WFAN's Chris "Mad Dog" Russo, "PEDRO FELIZ!?!?!?!?!?!?!"

Bringing somebody else down to bring me up - Bobby Crosby - .270 OBP

I did MY job.

by MeSoKrabby on Jul 25, 2007 1:32 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Re: Ranting, but not raving
We can also take solace in not drafting Kyle Drabek with the tenth pick last year, like everyone said we would. Drabek just had Tommy John surgery. And then there was Timmeh. I think we kind of lucked out with that.
Strikeouts are boring. Besides that, they're fascist. Not boring: Emmanuel Burriss. Not facist: THE RETURN OF SF Dugout

by BaronVonCurrentEvents on Jul 25, 2007 2:33 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Ranting, but not raving
There was only talk about Drabek because Lincecum was expected to fall into the teens somewhere because of his delivery and odd stories, while Drabek is a specimen.

Call it luck, call it fate, but Sabean chose him when the 9 teams ahead of him had the same opportunity.  

If that's luck, then Houston picking Berkman with the 17th pick is lucky, the players selected above him were not nearly as good, D-backs lucked in Upton at 15th because of Boras, he should have been #1 too, heck, then there's the A's with Huston Street, he was selected with the A's THIRD pick of the draft, there were all those teams in between those picks who could have selected Street before the A's finally got him.  And what about selecting Hudson in the 7th round, he was over the 200th players selected that year, all those teams could have picked him before the A's got to him.

"I'm a Giant now" and "I like watching the ball get up there" - Wendell Fairley "I'm really proud to be on this team." - Nate Schierholtz

by obsessivegiantscompulsive on Jul 25, 2007 3:30 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Ranting, but not raving
Upton was #1... I think you're thinking of Stephen Drew.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.

by jponry on Jul 25, 2007 3:34 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Ranting, but not raving
That's right, thanks, it was Drew, but he was also expected to go much higher than where he was picked, thanks.
"I'm a Giant now" and "I like watching the ball get up there" - Wendell Fairley "I'm really proud to be on this team." - Nate Schierholtz

by obsessivegiantscompulsive on Jul 25, 2007 4:17 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Ranting, but not raving
lol I can't believe people are still pushing the "Pedro will learn plate discipline!!" after all these years.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.

by jponry on Jul 25, 2007 2:40 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Ranting, but not raving
It kinda speaks to the general "hope" theme here. Feliz has gone 12 for 30 with three homers and six walks over the past ten days, stringing together some good-looking at-bats. If Frandsen or Schierholtz did that I'd be excited that they were turning a corner. But with Feliz... not so much.

It did occur to me this morning that when you take into account defense, Feliz may very well be the second best position player on the Giants this season. That tells you just about all you need to know about this year's team.

"Robb Nen is going to get you" - Benito Santiago to Chipper Jones, 10/7/02

by Pants Man on Jul 25, 2007 2:56 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Ranting, but not raving
PMan,
Thanks for putting my feelings into words. Pedro is a good guy with occasionally exciting power and great fielding who would make a welcome small piece of the puzzle on a team with six better starters. When he's number two or three, the team is in deep trouble and he's doomed to be a lightning rod for disappointment.

by NearestNorwich on Jul 25, 2007 3:15 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Ranting, but not raving
Now, I'm not going to say that this will continue, but I must note that Feliz has 8 walks and ony 4 strikeouts this month.  He has never had a month ever with more walks than strikeouts (but there's still plenty of games left) and he has never had less than 10 strikeouts in a month as a starter until this year, in May and currently June, plus he "only" had 11 last month.

As well, his contact rate (balls hit into play, i.e. minus strikeouts) is approximately 90% since May began, which is extraordinary for any hitter, a miracle for Feliz.  My fantasy guide says that you want hitters with a contact rate of over 85%, Bonds contact rate last season was 86% and 82% this season.

And his BB/K ratio since May started is 19 BB/24 K, or 79%, which I would guess is probably double the best he's ever had in any month ever in his career.  The best hitters have BB/K ratio of over 100% but 79% is pretty close, indicating how good that is for any batter.

All this after a very poor April for Feliz, as apparently he was absorbing his lessons of spring training when Bochy basically humiliated him by pitching BP to him and calling out situations like a little leaguer would get.  May and June were not that great either, but he was walking more and striking out less, and now he's hitting .276/.364/.466/.829 for July.  

That's good for a 3B, plus he's great defensively, Dewan's Fielding Bible says that Feliz is one of the top fielding 3B in the majors and the defensive stats that Baseball Musing publishes has had Feliz near the top every year for the past 2-3 seasons.

Also, he typically hits worse later in the season, at least in 2005 and 2006, 2004 was the only year as a regular player where his OPS was so high after May.  Plus, his OBP is the highest for any month since Sept 2004, by a large margin, the only way he could get a high OBP was a high BA before.

Again, not saying that he is a changed hitter that's going to continue to be changed, but he's certainly been a different hitter than any time before in his career in terms of walks and strikeouts.  And this could be on the low side for him, his career BABIP is .271 but he's only hitting .243 BABIP this season, so in theory, he could hit even better as his .243 rises closer to .271.

"I'm a Giant now" and "I like watching the ball get up there" - Wendell Fairley "I'm really proud to be on this team." - Nate Schierholtz

by obsessivegiantscompulsive on Jul 25, 2007 3:48 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I thank you, Bochy thanks you
His wife thanks you and his girls thank you. Feliz has taken (and earned) plenty of ridicule from Giants fans throughout the years. Glad to see when he is doing something positive he gets some love. Keep improving Feliz.

by wilriv21 on Jul 25, 2007 4:20 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Ranting, but not raving
Ways to make the Giants more interesting:

1)

2)
Sign Paste:

3)
Sign Oscar Gamble:

4)
Create a new team, then do this:
D, R, L, D, D, R, U, A.  Type: WHEN IT IS.

Fred Lewis in '08! What...? Dave Roberts is in center? Winn in right? Fred Lewis RIGHT NOW!

by Uribe nee Gonzalez on Jul 25, 2007 2:42 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Re: Ranting, but not raving
Paste raked.
If you root for the Dodgers, the terrorists have already won.

by SF Pete on Jul 25, 2007 2:56 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Ranting, but not raving
I'd even settle for the Lovely Ladies...
I did MY job.

by MeSoKrabby on Jul 25, 2007 3:03 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Ranting, but not raving
no way, i want Ayoob over Paste.  

by vivalancellotti on Jul 25, 2007 4:06 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Ranting, but not raving
Ayoob is trash.

Then again, we're probably talking about different things.

Coming to you by proxy (I adopted: Dave Righetti!)

by howtheyscored on Jul 25, 2007 5:40 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Ranting, but not raving
Ugh.  Ayoob was just terrible.  Even with Longshore injured, the team would have been so much better with Levy in there all year.  Of course, he was hurt early on IIRC as well.

by North Side Chicago Expatriate Giants Fan on Jul 25, 2007 10:08 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Ranting, but not raving
I've been watching a lot of Man v. Wild instead of Giants baseball this year.  Now it turns it out that the show is sort of fake.  Not a good summer to stop sniffing glue I guess.
If you root for the Dodgers, the terrorists have already won.

by SF Pete on Jul 25, 2007 2:58 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Re: Ranting, but not raving
Survivorman or bust!
Steve Kline: He's pretty okay!

by groug on Jul 25, 2007 3:09 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Ranting, but not raving
What I would like to see is Clay Timpner brought up from AAA. A lot of people for whatever reason don't seem to know who he is. He's 24 years old and has played the whole season in AAA with a higher batting average than Nate Scheirholtz (.342 to .331) and a higher on base percentage (.398 to .362). He is also according to baseballamerica.com, the best defensive
outfielder in the Giants farm system. He doesnt have  much power and has only above average speed so his ceiling is probably a 2 or 7 hitter but at this point I think he would be more productive in CF than Dave Roberts(my sister would too but whatever).

If the Giants trade Winn (they likely won't) It would be nice to have barry in left, clay timpner in CF, and Scheirholtz in RF.

 

by Frogger91w9 on Jul 25, 2007 3:05 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Re: Ranting, but not raving
I like Timpner but Lewis and Ortmeier are ahead of him even on the Fresno depth chart, and I think they'd be considered over him at the ML level as well.
Strikeouts are boring. Besides that, they're fascist. Not boring: Emmanuel Burriss. Not facist: THE RETURN OF SF Dugout

by BaronVonCurrentEvents on Jul 25, 2007 3:27 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Ranting, but not raving
*Durham is a terrible player who makes too much money. I'm losing my mind and my ability to use proper grammar.
Strikeouts are boring. Besides that, they're fascist. Not boring: Emmanuel Burriss. Not facist: THE RETURN OF SF Dugout

by BaronVonCurrentEvents on Jul 25, 2007 3:36 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Ranting, but not raving
Also your ability to reply to the right comment, but I'm sure nobody noticed.
Proud adoptive father of the All-Father and his 2.29 ERA

by EliminateMe on Jul 25, 2007 3:56 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Ranting, but not raving
If it's possible to get a do-over on the entire day I'd like do that.
Strikeouts are boring. Besides that, they're fascist. Not boring: Emmanuel Burriss. Not facist: THE RETURN OF SF Dugout

by BaronVonCurrentEvents on Jul 25, 2007 4:00 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Ranting, but not raving
Timpner is a much better AAA hitter than Ortmeier and Lewis.  Of course Lewis has the speed so that gives him some edge, but when it comes to hitting, Clay is better.  

The fact is that he is breaking out in his third year with a .344 avg and .401 obp.  He doesn't hit for power and I don't think he has much speed.  So realistically, he isn't even much of a 5th outfielder.  He is another guy I would teach 1B to and have gain some weight.

I need old crusty vets like I need a nail driven into my brain.

by BawLa on Jul 25, 2007 5:40 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Ranting, but not raving
I'm sorry dude but you don't just tell a guy "hey, put on fifteen pounds" and he comes back a power hitter. Come on.
Barry Zito: Mike Hampton with a guitar

by JakeS on Jul 25, 2007 5:44 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Ranting, but not raving
It's pretty easy when you are paying the kid.
I need old crusty vets like I need a nail driven into my brain.

by BawLa on Jul 25, 2007 7:16 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Ranting, but not raving
Good God why? The one plus skill he has is CF defense. Why would you want to take that away exactly?

by Roger on Jul 25, 2007 7:31 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Ranting, but not raving
You need to learn reading comprehension.  Timpner is not THAT fast, so the CF defense you speak of has a much lower ceiling than say a Freddie Lewis.  With that said, why not sacrifice the little speed he does have, which I say again is not that much speed, and turn it into more power, which he clearly needs.  He has a good average and OBP so he sees and hits the ball well.  He just needs a little more pop and because you sacrifice the speed, you teach him 1B and move him there.
I need old crusty vets like I need a nail driven into my brain.

by BawLa on Jul 26, 2007 10:52 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Ranting, but not raving
My reading comprehension's just fine thank you.  However, your making a statement doesn't actually cause it to be true.  Nobody who's ever seen the two of them play would begin to suggest that Fred Lewis could ever be a better defensive CF than Clay Timpner -- that's really just foolish.  

As for power, I'm gonna say if Timpner never had any using aluminum bats in a fairly small college stadium, 15 more pounds of muscle isn't likely to give it to him.

by Roger on Jul 26, 2007 11:15 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Ranting, but not raving
This is Clay's second season and he is breaking out.  So from that perspective, you might not want to change anything he is doing...I can understand that rationale.

Look, I know you don't just walk up to the kid and say, hey put on some weight dude.  But you can talk to his agent and present the options.  You tell him there is a logjam with these AAA outfielders that seem to be virtual clones.  You say there are others ahead of him on the pecking order.  You say if you want to increase your chances of getting called up quicker, and if you want to expand the potential of your career in general, then consider putting on some muscle and learning 1B.  You say, we as the organization are here to help you accomplish this goal if you so choose.  Let him decide if that is what he wants to do.

The fact is we have a hole at 1B that no one is stepping up to fill it..cough...Niekro...cough.  And speaking of the devil look at Niekro - 6'3" 225 lbs.  Clay Timpner - 6'2" 195 lbs.  Not very hard to add 15 lbs. to that frame with a little hard work.

Clay Timpner may have a better baseball IQ and a better understanding of defensive positioning than Freddie Lewis, but Lewis' speed will always give him a higher ceiling for defensive capability.  Lewis can learn positioning, he can learn routes, he can learn to read the ball.  Clay would have to work out a shitload to get speedier.  In his 2 years of minors baseball, Clay has stolen 22 bases and been caught 21 times.  That is a success rate of about 50%.  Not THAT fast, in other words.  So again, I come full circle to my original rationale which was sacrificing some of his speed, to add weight to his frame.  

Typically, Clay bats at the top of the lineup.   He doesn't draw a ton of walks, and I just showed you that he doesn't have a ton of speed so why does he bat at the top of the lineup?  Because he has good pitch recognition and he has a good swing.  So lets work with that base, add some muscle to it, and see if he can turn some of his singles into doubles, doubles into homers.  The subsequent increase in weight will make him slower and therefore fully justify moving to 1B.

I need old crusty vets like I need a nail driven into my brain.

by BawLa on Jul 26, 2007 1:30 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Ranting, but not raving
But SB and defensive speed aren't the same thing. Michael McBryde, who Giants execs swear is faster than Emmanuel Burriss has a SB/CS this year of 12/10.  Really, it's not worth much of an argument from my perspective, because I don't believe Timpner will ever have the bat to play at the major league level as anything more than an Ellison-esque 5th OF.  Certainly he will never be an acceptable starting 1B.  But neither will Fred Lewis ever make an acceptable defensive CF. I've watched him play for a few years now and just about every fly ball's an adventure with Fred.  I don't believe he's ever going to learn to read fly balls better any more than I think Pedro Feliz is going to learn to pick up sliders better.

by Roger on Jul 26, 2007 1:53 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Ranting, but not raving
Timpner was not even a good hitter in the minors coming up the minor league system, I think even Calvin Murray could hit in the minors. He's due for a huge downfall, his BABIP this season in AAA is .402, last year it was .319, the year before .242, and pitchers normally give up .300 BABIP, so most batters are around that, though they level off usually to a career BABIP of their own.  Clearly his .402 is too high for anyone to sustain, let alone a hitter who could barely eke out .300 over the two previous years.

I will grant that his walk rate has increased greatly, signaling some growth, but so did his strikeouts, though it is still pretty good, which it has been the past two seasons, very good in fact.  Perhaps he has learned to swing at more pitches and get more hits that way, accepting more strikeouts, but also became better at pitch location, allowing him to draw more walks.

So there is some skill improvement involved for Timpner, but given how poorly his stats were previously, you have to take this season with a grain of salt relative to, say, how well Schierholtz has been hitting, that's how well he has hit before in the minors, he has a history of doing that.  Same with Lewis.

Plus, this was Timpner's second season in AAA, so part of that is learning the pitchers in the league, and to his credit, he did, but major league pitchers are another creature, else there wouldn't be the creature known as the "AAAA" hitter (see Linden, Todd).  So hold the applause until we see him do it in the majors, he has a lot of history to overcome, but who knows, maybe the light bulb went on.  

"I'm a Giant now" and "I like watching the ball get up there" - Wendell Fairley "I'm really proud to be on this team." - Nate Schierholtz

by obsessivegiantscompulsive on Jul 25, 2007 4:03 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Ranting, but not raving
Less Dave Roberts, more Nate/Freddie!/Clay.  Trade Dave Rob... hahah I couldn't even finish that sentence.

Trade Morris.  Trade Durham.

by North Side Chicago Expatriate Giants Fan on Jul 25, 2007 3:23 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Re: Ranting, but not raving
Trying to deal with a four day headache has only been worsened by people on this board saying "LETS TRADE DURHAM" For what? Who will take him? He's a terrible player that makes too much money. It's not going to happen.
Strikeouts are boring. Besides that, they're fascist. Not boring: Emmanuel Burriss. Not facist: THE RETURN OF SF Dugout

by BaronVonCurrentEvents on Jul 25, 2007 3:35 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Ranting, but not raving
agree.  reality check:  who would ever trade for Winn, Roberts, or Durham, unless it were a salary for salary dump?  Morris, OK he pitches so maybe someone will take him.  

by vivalancellotti on Jul 25, 2007 4:08 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Ranting, but not raving
I can almost see someone taking Winn, as he only has one more year after this. Durham...probably not. No way on Roberts. Our best bet with him is that he gets hot for the rest of the season and we move him in the offseason.

by Grant on Jul 25, 2007 4:11 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Ranting, but not raving
As someone pointed out a few days ago Winn is overachieving this year and it would be a good idea to move him. That no trade clause kinda pees all over the idea, though.
Strikeouts are boring. Besides that, they're fascist. Not boring: Emmanuel Burriss. Not facist: THE RETURN OF SF Dugout

by BaronVonCurrentEvents on Jul 25, 2007 4:24 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Ranting, but not raving
Durham has a long history of being able to hit - particularly well last year - and I believe that someone will take a chance on him.  Granted, the return won't be huge, but it could be ok if the team would send some cash along with him.  Struggling veterans get traded every year.  

by North Side Chicago Expatriate Giants Fan on Jul 25, 2007 10:07 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Ranting, but not raving
Angel went 2-3 with a double and a walk!

Noonan went 3-3 with a walk and a triple!

I'm sorry... was there a major league club we were supposed to be discussing?

Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.

by jponry on Jul 25, 2007 3:27 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Re: Ranting, but not raving
I'm a big Nick Noonan fan
last time I checked he was leading their rookie league team in batting average(through 20-something games but whatever)

Its too bad that the Giants best talent is in high-A or below

by Frogger91w9 on Jul 25, 2007 3:41 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Ranting, but not raving
The Giants best talents are on the major league club now, Lincecum, Sanchez, and Lewis.
"I'm a Giant now" and "I like watching the ball get up there" - Wendell Fairley "I'm really proud to be on this team." - Nate Schierholtz

by obsessivegiantscompulsive on Jul 25, 2007 4:04 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Ranting, but not raving
lewis isn't as good a prospect as people make him out to be
he has one plus tool and thats his speed
but as far as hitting for average/power, and defensively hes just ok

by Frogger91w9 on Jul 25, 2007 5:50 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Ranting, but not raving
He can also take a walk, that's certainly a skill - and one that this team is sorely lacking in.
Barry Zito: Mike Hampton with a guitar

by JakeS on Jul 25, 2007 5:53 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Ranting, but not raving
The thing about Lew is that as far as my scant knowledge of biomechanics can tell me, he has what should be a pretty promising power frame...

I wonder if I'm right about that at all, and if I am I can always be optimistic that he can develop a power game.

Coming to you by proxy (I adopted: Dave Righetti!)

by howtheyscored on Jul 25, 2007 6:03 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Ranting, but not raving
Paging Victor Conte...Victor Conte, please report to the Giants' clubhouse...the white zone is for loading and unloading only
Bold Prediction: Klesko will finish the 2007 season with at least 20 HRs. (OPS+ is 129 as of 7/1/07)

by Goofus on Jul 26, 2007 9:05 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Ranting, but not raving
I'm super impressed by all these walks from a friggin' 16-year-old.
Barry Zito: Mike Hampton with a guitar

by JakeS on Jul 25, 2007 3:45 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Ranting, but not raving
Plus he has a good BB/K ratio too!
"I'm a Giant now" and "I like watching the ball get up there" - Wendell Fairley "I'm really proud to be on this team." - Nate Schierholtz

by obsessivegiantscompulsive on Jul 25, 2007 4:04 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

First deal in the lead-up to the deadline made...
http://www.jsonline.com/watch/?watch=2&date=7/25/2007&id=26945

Scott Linebrink for Will Inman, Steve Garrison and Joe Thatcher

not a bad deal for the Padres... nor for the Brewers for that matter, if they get 2 picks out of Linebrink after the season.

Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.

by jponry on Jul 25, 2007 3:40 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Re: First deal in the lead-up to the deadline made
I'm interested in the rumour that the Nats are going to try to stockpile vets and let them walk for the draft picks. I'll be surprised if it happens but it's inventive.
Barry Zito: Mike Hampton with a guitar

by JakeS on Jul 25, 2007 3:45 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: First deal in the lead-up to the deadline made
Inman could do very well in Petco. I like that trade for the Pads, not so much for the Brewers.

Linebrink has slipped some this year and thats a lot to give up for him.

by xanthan on Jul 25, 2007 3:49 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Deal makers
I guess he was having a Benitezesque season for the Padres, but he wasn't that bad. I mean we had... Benitez.
Barry Bombs gear | comics | Ray Durham is... yeah.

by Natto on Jul 25, 2007 3:52 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Deal makers
I just looked at his bb-ref and was surprised to see that he'd had a huge drop in his strikeout rate this year.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.

by jponry on Jul 25, 2007 3:52 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Deal makers
Yeah, given the reliever fetish this year, we ought to be able to fool someone with Steve Kline - right? Right?

by Aadik on Jul 25, 2007 3:59 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Deal makers
Who wouldn't want STEVE KLINE???

HE'S STEVE KLINE!

Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.

by jponry on Jul 25, 2007 4:00 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Deal makers
I really don't see why not. His ERA is in the low 3s and he's Proven. At the very least, I'm hoping he's the cherry on a Morris sundae that'll bring back a real prospect.

by Grant on Jul 25, 2007 4:01 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Deal makers
Why not? If you're the kind of GM who believes in magical veteran soft-tossing lefties (and I just pray that Sabean isn't the only one in the league who does), than Kline must look pretty good right now. Over the past two months he has a 0.89 ERA and a 1.28 WHIP, and in two years as a Giant he has yet to allow a home run to a lefty.

He's pretty okay.

"Robb Nen is going to get you" - Benito Santiago to Chipper Jones, 10/7/02

by Pants Man on Jul 25, 2007 4:07 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: First deal in the lead-up to the deadline...
Interesting. Linebrink was having a horrible July, and he has more blown saves than holds dating back to June 6th. And he still pulled in quite a haul.
"Robb Nen is going to get you" - Benito Santiago to Chipper Jones, 10/7/02

by Pants Man on Jul 25, 2007 4:01 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: First deal in the lead-up to the deadline
Not too bad for the Brewers, the two picks could conceivably net them a 21-30 overall pick and a 30's pick overall;  that's arguably the same total value package as Inman, Garrison, and Thatcher together.  Plus they get 2 months worth of Linebrink, plus the playoffs, if any.

The only way this makes sense for the Padres is if they have a reliever who is lights out and could take over Linebrink's reduced performance in the setup spot.  Wasn't Cla Meredith also scuffling too?

Then again, since they really like these three players, they've been pretty schrewd in their trades so that's in their favor as well.

"I'm a Giant now" and "I like watching the ball get up there" - Wendell Fairley "I'm really proud to be on this team." - Nate Schierholtz

by obsessivegiantscompulsive on Jul 25, 2007 4:16 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: First deal in the lead-up to the deadline
Heath Bell
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.

by jponry on Jul 25, 2007 4:17 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Ranting, but not raving
Comment starter: What would make this team more interesting to you?

Penguins...lots and lots of penguins. My wife and daughter love em. And definitely in their own little uniforms.

I think having the whole team come out once per game and dance to "YMCA" would be cool as well.

by otis29 on Jul 25, 2007 4:32 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Or....
Dancing penguins.
Barry Bombs gear | comics | Ray Durham is... yeah.

by Natto on Jul 25, 2007 4:53 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Or....
Methinks their arms are too short to make the "Y" , the "C" or the "A".  I'll give 'em the "M".

We may need a different song.

by otis29 on Jul 25, 2007 4:56 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Ranting, but not raving
I would have liked Julio Franco to platoon with Klesko.
"I'd take pleasure in gutting you boy" Oh and ignore the spelling. I do.....

by someguynamedg on Jul 25, 2007 4:56 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Ranting, but not raving
and dancing penguins.
"I'd take pleasure in gutting you boy" Oh and ignore the spelling. I do.....

by someguynamedg on Jul 25, 2007 4:56 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Ranting, but not raving
How about Franco dancing in a tuxedo? Best of all worlds!
Proud adoptive father of the All-Father and his 2.29 ERA

by EliminateMe on Jul 25, 2007 5:10 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Ranting, but not raving
It has to be cold out, though.
Coming to you by proxy (I adopted: Dave Righetti!)

by howtheyscored on Jul 25, 2007 5:45 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Ranting, but not raving
Thank you Grant. I've been saying that this team is just plain boring for a long time now.

What constitutes boring? Old players who suck and young players with no talent. I'm afraid that the options you present, play Lewis and Schierholtz more, won't really cure the suckness because, let's face it, those guys aren't any good.

What's the solution? If you're an optimist, wait 'till next year, if you're a realist, wait until Sabean gets canned.

by smedley on Jul 25, 2007 6:25 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Re: Ranting, but not raving
It is definately time for a change with this ball club.  I'd be way more excited about no talent 25 year olds than no talent 35 year olds.  This team, under Sabean, has continued to ignore their best position players in the minors to bring in older players past their prime and I have never truely understood why.  In many cases you would get similiar production from a younger cheaper player as you would the over-the-hill vet, plus you find out if a player can fit into your future.  I know that playrs like Torcato and Linden weren't super prospects, but they were fairly well reguarded as future major leaguers in our organization, however they were relegated to multiple seasons at AAA, and never had the chance to finish developing.  A player realy can't learn how to be a major leaguer with out playing in the major leagues, and all we have given most of our previous young guys is a 4th outfield spot and a pinch hitter role (rookies generally make poor pinch hitters, the best pinch hitters are usually crappy veterans, i.e. Mark Sweeny).  Leaving these players on the bench too much or in AAA too long and they just rot, it messes with their head and all of a sudden they just aren't prospects.

Also, did you notice how the Braves have been able to integrate young players into their lineups even the ones that aren't uber prospects.  Wish the Giants could find a way to do this instead of extending the careers of outfileds who should now be pinch runners/hitters.

Maybe this year we can knock the Dodgers out of the playoffs

by Bring Back the Thrill on Jul 25, 2007 10:46 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Re: Ranting, but not raving
But, if we bring back the thrill, wouldn't that be making the club vastly older in one fell swoop? INCONGRUOUS!

(funny reply = "who's in congress?")

Coming to you by proxy (I adopted: Dave Righetti!)

by howtheyscored on Jul 25, 2007 10:56 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

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