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Replacement leveled

It seems a little craven to keep up the dismantling talk when the team is on a three-game winning streak. Or should that be Three-Game Winning Streak? Better yet, THREE-GAME WINNING STREAK!!!!!, 'cause, hey, if you can't celebrate the good times, what can you celebrate? Other than legitimately good times, I mean.

Even with the all-caps-worthy streak in progress, the Giants are still ten games out of first. The doom train still rolls on. If the Giants were to completely blow the team up - however unlikely it would be that every tradeable veteran goes - here's how I would rank the vacancy problems:

Would be missed greatly:

Ryan Klesko - He's the first decent first baseman since J.T. Snow snorted the ashes of George Sisler in the second half of 2004, and he'd be replaced by something abominable, like a Chad Santos/Lance Niekro platoon. Yeechh. At least the void might light a fire under management's backside. Because I'm sure that once they realize there's a gaping hole at first base, they'll rush to fill it with a hard-hitting cleanup type. Yeah. That's the ticket. You call the last seventeen years "evidence"; I call it a "fluke." If Klesko had another year on his contract, I wouldn't want him traded at all.

Matt Morris - Maybe "missed greatly" isn't the right term. If he continues to pitch as well as he has been, it would be the right term. If he slumps in the second half like last season, though, he would just barely qualify for "kinda sorta missed". He's still the best chance at a young impact player the Giants have. If teams don't want to ante up for the tailored Mark Buherle suit, Morris is a good Nordstrom's Rack option. How much he'll be missed would depend on the success of the player replacing him, but there's little chance the fill-in - say, Jonathan Sanchez - would be as effective as Morris in the first half, and a small chance they'd even be as effective as a 2006 Morris.

Would be missed more than you think:

Randy Winn - Not because he's any great shakes, but because there just isn't an in-house replacement that's a good bet to hit up to the .284/.343/.421 career averages of Winn. That's pretty sad, but it's the truth. I'd still rather give Schierholtz the full-time gig in right to see what he can do. And if Winn would waive his no-trade clause, he could bring back something of interest. Crazier things have happened.

Would kinda sorta be missed:

Omar Vizquel & Ray Durham - They're a good double play combo, and they're both capable of much more at the plate. There is also a pretty good chance that they're both just old 'n' busted. I like both players, so the "kinda sorta" is mostly based on sentiment alone. At the plate, the team wouldn't notice if they were swapped out with Luis Figueroa and Kevin Frandsen. That's even sadder than the Randy Winn realization. I'd miss watching Vizquel play defense, but he's probably not going to go anywhere.

Really? He was still on the team?:

Rich Aurilia - Love the guy, but he's been the most disappointing Giants hitter of 2007. That should be a tougher award to give out, but there you go, Richie. Try and keep the speech under a minute. His two-year contract looked fine in the offseason, but now it might be an impediment to trading him at all. He'll stick around, especially if he's still gimpy. Hopefully, he'll creep back up toward tolerable, because he's been little more than a less-effective Lance Niekro.

Steve Kline - Pat Misch deserves the chance to replace Kline, and he has a good shot of outperforming Kline.

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Re: Replacement leveled
I'm sure you meant "second half of 2004" but intentionally wrote "2003" to make sure we were paying attention. Oh, you're a clever one, Grant.
Barry Bombs gear | comics | Ray - sent to his room until he hits

by Natto on Jun 26, 2007 2:19 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Re: Replacement leveled
Mark's Weeney?
Coming to you by proxy (I adopted: Dave Righetti!)

by howtheyscored on Jun 26, 2007 2:30 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Replacement leveled
No kidding...call me crazy, but even Lowry could swing a .177 average as a pinch hitter.  PATHETIC.  He needs to be cut loose, and sooner rather than later.
Omar Vizquel hates Joey Barton too. He's a wanker, mate!

by PacBellBoozer on Jun 26, 2007 3:51 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Replacement leveled
Small sample size.  He hit .270/.345/.423 last year against RHP, and I would guess that's about what you can expect for him in the future.

by North Side Chicago Expatriate Giants Fan on Jun 26, 2007 3:57 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Replacement leveled
Sample size you say?!?  Blow it out your arse!  He's had a total of 70 plate appearances this year, and all but 3 of those have been against right-handers.

THIS year, he's hitting .169 in those 67 plate appearances.  Again...F'ing pathetic and not something that will scare anyone on the mound.

We aren't making the case for what they did LAST year in this discussion, unless I missed that somewhere.

Omar Vizquel hates Joey Barton too. He's a wanker, mate!

by PacBellBoozer on Jun 26, 2007 4:16 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Replacement leveled
He shouldn't hit that poorly going forward - at least you shouldn't expect it.

Whether Sweeney goes or stays won't have much impact on the team anyway.

by North Side Chicago Expatriate Giants Fan on Jun 26, 2007 4:33 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Replacement leveled
I'll say it again...my feelings towards him are only based on the numbers he's put up THIS season.  I'm not talking about last year, or the remaining part of this year.

My point is that if we're in rebuild mode, why not offload him so we can replace him with a minor leaguer who would be withering away in Fresno because we don't have any room on the 25 man roster?  Imagine for a second being able to have Figueroa, Frandsen, Schierholtz, Lewis, and Knodeler all on the big league roster.  That's called hope, is it not?

At least we're achieving something by having a warm body on the 25 man.  Teach the kids how to travel, teach them how to eat properly, let them experience the big leagues this year, when the only alternative is a hack .177 lefty pinch hitter who's almost 38 years old.  

Omar Vizquel hates Joey Barton too. He's a wanker, mate!

by PacBellBoozer on Jun 26, 2007 4:48 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Replacement leveled
There is something to be said for giving the youngsters a taste of the bigs, but Sweeney barely ever plays.  Do you want to call up a minor-league guy and give him the Sweeney/Ellison treatment and just plop him on the bench with no playing time in sight?

I don't know if I want that.

by North Side Chicago Expatriate Giants Fan on Jun 26, 2007 5:02 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Replacement leveled
For a 24-year-old? No. For Justin Leone? Yes.
"Robb Nen is going to get you" - Benito Santiago to Chipper Jones, 10/7/02

by Pants Man on Jun 26, 2007 5:09 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Replacement leveled
Is Justin Leone really any more likely to be part of the Giants' future than Mark Sweeney is? Or are you thinking that if we can actually get something of value in trade for Sweeney, we use Leone to fill his spot on the bench for the rest of the season? I'd be okay with that, but I don't really expect to get anything for Sweeney.
Proud adoptive father of the All-Father and his 2.48 ERA

by EliminateMe on Jun 26, 2007 5:31 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Replacement leveled
Sweeney doesn't play, because we don't have a position for him.  Kelsko, Feliz, Aurilia, and Frandsen can all play 1st.  Now that Nate is up, and Freddy has had a taste, we've got more than enough outfielders as well.

Why not unload Sweeney if it means we can bring up a minor leaguer to provide a days rest to our old club?  Give Pedro, Omar, and Ray some time off.  Give Roberts and Winn some time off as well.  Use one of them as a late inning replacement/pinch hitter for Barry.

The problem with Sweeney is that he's playing at a position that we're particularly deep in, and he's a lefty hitter on a club full of lefty's every single day of the week.  In looking at the active roster as it stands right now...the only pure righty hitters we've got are Pedro, Frandsen, and both catchers.  Are you telling me that you'd pull one of them from a game so Sweeney could hit against a righty on the mound?

He is the truest definition of dead weight in my book.    

Omar Vizquel hates Joey Barton too. He's a wanker, mate!

by PacBellBoozer on Jun 26, 2007 6:17 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Replacement leveled
it's a deep position, nine feet of absolute crap.
this is a split signature of solidarity for Palestine and the current Giants "team".

by SloIsLonelyForTheOrange on Jun 26, 2007 6:26 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Replacement leveled
No doubt...and that's precisely the reason we should let some of it go.  
Omar Vizquel hates Joey Barton too. He's a wanker, mate!

by PacBellBoozer on Jun 27, 2007 8:55 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Replacement leveled
I don't know, Boozer, when I think of a lineup made up of Figueroa, Frandsen, Schierholtz, Lewis, and Knoedler I think the sensation has something more akin to dread than hope. I don't see a lot of big league starters in that particular list.

by Roger on Jun 27, 2007 10:02 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Replacement leveled
I'm not saying they should all be in there at the same time.  Just trying to point out that Sweeney provides zero flexibility on our current roster.  

It's not like he's got some speed and can be used to pinch run for someone (like Schierholtz/Lewis).  

Can't play 2nd, 3rd, or SS (like Frandsen, Figueroa, Aurilia).

And on top of that, he's a lefty on a team stocked full of them.  There's no need for him in my book.   NONE.  

Omar Vizquel hates Joey Barton too. He's a wanker, mate!

by PacBellBoozer on Jun 27, 2007 8:10 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Replacement leveled
FWIW, he does only have a .213 BABIP this year, compared to .307 for his career and .293 last year.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.

by jponry on Jun 26, 2007 4:29 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Replacement leveled
True, but Sweeney's good reputation is built on small sample sizes as well. He had a .678 road OPS as a Rockie in 2004, leaving 2005 as the only truly impressive season of his career. Even with 2005 (and Coors in 2004), you're looking at a guy with a career SLG of .397 who strikes out a lot and has no real defensive skills or bas... okay, here's where I usually say that Sweeney has no baserunning skills, but that bluff last night was pretty cool.

These numbers don't get much better in the situations he's best suited for: .406 SLG vs. righties, .395 as a pinch-hitter. He'll take a walk if you give it to him, he knows his role, and he's a good guy to have around in the clubhouse. And he's not a particularly wise use of a roster spot at this point in his career.

"Robb Nen is going to get you" - Benito Santiago to Chipper Jones, 10/7/02

by Pants Man on Jun 26, 2007 5:24 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Replacement leveled
He does get the occasional clutch walk like he did last night.
Barry Bombs gear | comics | Ray - sent to his room until he hits

by Natto on Jun 26, 2007 4:06 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Replacement leveled
And the fake steal which pushed Greene out of position, which was the key to the whole inning.
I'll take the freight train, Bengie Molina.

by Brother Bummer on Jun 26, 2007 4:29 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Replacement leveled
Of all the guys listed, I would definitely miss Klesko the most. After years of having a black hole for the 1B spot in the lineup, it's nice seeing a (slightly) above average guy there. He may have some questionable ABs, but I have a good feeling whenever Ryno steps into the box.

Somewhat unrelated but does Kevin Towers know something we don't? According to ESPN, he expects the Giants to close the gap by the trade deadline.

Barry Bombs gear | comics | Ray - sent to his room until he hits

by Natto on Jun 26, 2007 2:28 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Re: Replacement leveled
I saw that, too. I kind of imagine he's just fanning whatever he might see as the flames of Sabean/Ownerships need to contend. This team has no chance to contend, but I'm sure he'd LOVE for Sabean/Ownership to believe that they do.
Coming to you by proxy (I adopted: Dave Righetti!)

by howtheyscored on Jun 26, 2007 2:31 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Replacement leveled
I agree. Fans of some teams might turn their noses up at an OBP-heavy 121 OPS+ from a first baseman, but it's been a real breath of fresh air after our 05-06 "First Basemen". Though I think he should go back to hitting in front of Barry, as his high OBP seems more valuable in front of him and Molina and Durham.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.

by jponry on Jun 26, 2007 2:31 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Replacement leveled
"Feliz drives Bonds home to lift Giants pass Padres"

ESPN seems to like our chances in the standings as well.

Bruce Bochy gets his big head from me.

by Stuttering John Tamargo on Jun 26, 2007 2:33 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Replacement leveled
At a million bucks, Klesko's been Sabean's best move of the off-season.

If the Giants do end up dealing him, I'd hope they'd take a look at signing him again in the off-season.  The Bochy connection should give them a leg-up on the other teams.

Despite having a "For Sale" sign stapled to his forehead, Ryan Klesko's OPS+ is 123 as of 6/25/07. (Platoon shmlatoon; it's 195 vs. LHP)

by Goofus on Jun 26, 2007 2:38 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Replacement leveled
Klesko has done quite well, Misch could indeed replace Kline, and Roberts and Winn were never needed in the same outfield to begin with.  Schierholtz could likely replace either without a huge drop off.  If Fred Lewis could learn to play center field acceptably (and that diving backhanded catch he made right before he was disabled MIGHT give hope of his doing so), he could come close to replacing either in center, as well.

I wouldn't hesitate to trade EITHER Randy or Davey if the Giants could get a decent prospect.

by sharksrog on Jun 26, 2007 3:16 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Gay for Klesko
he's just fabulous.
The Fringe was right.

by nostocksjustbonds on Jun 26, 2007 3:24 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Gay for Klesko
Finally, a guy reviled by Giants fans who gets signed by the team and shows us why we should love him. Klesko's a ballplayer, and I've really liked watching him play.
Coming to you by proxy (I adopted: Dave Righetti!)

by howtheyscored on Jun 26, 2007 3:28 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Replacement leveled
We're closer to the division lead than the Yankees are!

Here's a depressing thought:  I just started the 2009 season in MLB '07 The Show, and the Giants still have Vizquel, Durham, Feliz, Molina, Alfonzo, Roberts, and Linden.  Alfonzo hits 4th, and everyone but Feliz (my player starts at 3rd) and Molina are starters.  

by North Side Chicago Expatriate Giants Fan on Jun 26, 2007 3:24 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Re: Replacement leveled
Are you doing "The Show" mode? (I did a pitcher on the Mets and by my third year, they had Jim Thome, Carlos Delgado and Lyle Overbay on the roster, but were still playing Shawn Green and Jose Valentin. Great AI! LOL)

If not... why haven't you upgraded!?

Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.

by jponry on Jun 26, 2007 3:27 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Replacement leveled
Cool... I really like RTTS, but the dumbness of the front office AI gets annoying after awhile. And the manager always taking me out if I give up one baserunner in the 7th inning or later, even if I've been dominating up to that point.

Sadly, my PS2 is dead, so I haven't been able to play it in while.

Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.

by jponry on Jun 26, 2007 3:44 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Replacement leveled
Yeah, the AI makes some strange choices.  I need to go back and start over, though, because the Giants don't have Lincecum in my game as I started before he came up.  I would like to see how different the game is with him, because the Giants pitching is pretty crappy in my game.

by North Side Chicago Expatriate Giants Fan on Jun 26, 2007 3:51 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Replacement leveled
Barry Zito had a career-ending injury in the first season of my game.

Ominously, Matt Cain went 5-15 with a sub-3 ERA.

Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.

by jponry on Jun 26, 2007 4:10 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Replacement leveled
The players signed through 2008 is who Sabean should try to dump: Durham, Winn, Roberts, Aurilia, Morris, Kline. Give the playing AB's to Frandsen, Schierholtz, Ortmeier, Lewis. Put Sanchez in the rotation, replace him with Misch, and fill the other lefty opening with Threets.

Go for all young prospects in return. Re-build. Younger. Healthier.

Defender of Noah Lowry.

by Kid Fresh on Jun 26, 2007 3:47 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Re: Replacement leveled
Agree with the exception of Morris.  Not sure why so many people want to get rid of him.  I guess if a contender was actually willing to give up some good prospect(s) for him, I'd do it, but otherwise I'm cool with keeping him around.  He's a great guy to have mentoring Cain/Lincecum IMO.
Idolizing Robb Nen since 2002...

by Smoke on the Water on Jun 26, 2007 6:11 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Replacement leveled
Yup, Morris I would want to trade for Something, rather than just a salary dump.

by kennv on Jun 26, 2007 7:11 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Replacement leveled
Sweeney should be traded for anything, and if you can't get something, then he should be DFA'ed at the trade deadline.  The guy to take his spot should not be Ortmeier or Lewis.  Leave those guys in AAA to continue to battle thier way back up.  Horwitz is a guy that plays 1B/OF just like Sweeney, and he is batting: .349/.393/.477 in 109 at-bats.
I need old crusty vets like I need a nail driven into my brain.

by BawLa on Jun 26, 2007 4:06 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Re: Replacement leveled
Steve Kline - Pat Misch deserves the chance to replace Kline, and he has a good shot of outperforming Kline>>>>

My 4 year old crippled cousin has a good shot of outperforming Klein...

"Buy High-Sell Low"--The Brian Sabean Method Of Trading

by Mordy From Monsey on Jun 26, 2007 4:32 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Re: Replacement leveled
Steve Kline - Pat Misch deserves the chance to replace Kline, and he has a good shot of outperforming Kline>>>>

My 4 year old crippled cousin has a good shot of outperforming Klein...
KLINE too....

"Buy High-Sell Low"--The Brian Sabean Method Of Trading

by Mordy From Monsey on Jun 26, 2007 4:36 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Re: Replacement leveled
I'd miss seeing Omar out there every day, that's for sure. The guy is an artist. His bat seems to be waking up a bit as well. I think you're likely to lose more than you'd gain by trading him -- I mean, how much value does he have, anyway?

by delorean on Jun 26, 2007 5:26 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Re: Replacement leveled
Just two additional thoughts. 1)I don't pretend to understand the complexities but we need to keep in mind how some of these people would be rated as free agents if we didn't dump them and what that would leave us in terms of draft choices in the future if we don't dump them now and 2)I also don't pretend to know much about what goes on in the clubhouse but it's possible that one or two of the vets have considerable value as mentors for some of the younger players and should be retained for that reason.

by NearestNorwich on Jun 26, 2007 6:01 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Re: Replacement leveled
Just noticed the redundant dumping phrases -- shows you where my heart is. I'd be most inclined to keep Klesko and Morris -- both are gamers with a lot to contribute (as opposed to, say, Roberts -- a gamer with little to offer).

by NearestNorwich on Jun 26, 2007 6:05 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Replacement leveled
Roberts gets on base and is the only true speed threat on the team.  I think he has a lot to offer, even in a bench role.

You can't look at his numbers so far and expect that he will be that bad because of the elbow injury.

by North Side Chicago Expatriate Giants Fan on Jun 26, 2007 10:25 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Replacement leveled
The ESPN "topic of the day" yesterday seems to have been White Sox general manager Kenny Williams' declaration that he's sick of what his team has been doing, and that he's willing to make some changes.  People immediately assumed that Mark Buehrle was available in a trade for a bat, and started firing up the rumor mills.

I must be reading this site too much, 'cause I instinctively started replacing Buehrle in those conversations in my head with Matt Morris.

But I'm not a fan of blowing things up, because I am irrational and I want my team to be competitive every time I watch a game on TV or via Yahoo or go in person (which I will try to do when I come back to SF later on this summer after school lets out).

People may say we suck now and it's got to get worse before it gets better, and maybe they're right.  Then again, the lean years of the mid-80s and the mid-90s were much worse than what we're seeing now, I think.  I don't have much hope that this season will have a happy ending, but I do think that the current roster (with perhaps some tweaking) can provide an entertaining game on any given day.  And that's what I ultimately watch the games for.

Adopting Dave Roberts since 2007

by hometownboy on Jun 26, 2007 6:25 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Re: Replacement leveled
Buehrle is better than Morris, but Morris is probably better trade bait.  Morris has another year on his contract, while Buehrle is almost guaranteed to sign with St Louis and would be only a rental.

by North Side Chicago Expatriate Giants Fan on Jun 26, 2007 10:23 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Replacement leveled
In general, I'd agree, but a "rental" guy who's contract is expiring is often more attractive to some teams.
Despite having a "For Sale" sign stapled to his forehead, Ryan Klesko's OPS+ is 123 as of 6/25/07. (Platoon shmlatoon; it's 195 vs. LHP)

by Goofus on Jun 27, 2007 6:28 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Replacement leveled
The three losing years in the mid-80s were the nadir of the franchise history (including the only 100 loss season ever).  But in the mid-90s they had a three year period where they played .478, .465, and .420 baseball. Currently we're in the three year period where they've played .463, .472., and .434 baseball.  I don't see where that qualifies as much better.

And if things don't take a significant turn for the better in '08 this period will certainly be able to make it's claim as the worst in franchise history.

by Roger on Jun 27, 2007 10:00 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Replacement leveled
Good point.  Maybe peopel find the current team at least interesting with Cain, Lincecum and Bonds chasing the record. Plus, the ballpark makes the experience better beyond what's on the field.

On those bad 90s teams, once you got past Matt Williams and pre-steroid Bonds, about the most interesting thing was wondering whether Darren Lewis was going to keep his errorless streak alive.

On the bad 80s teams, a broken down Vida Blue was the marquee player.  They should have put a mic on Krukow, because I'm sure what he had to say was better than his pitching at that point.

Despite having a "For Sale" sign stapled to his forehead, Ryan Klesko's OPS+ is 123 as of 6/25/07. (Platoon shmlatoon; it's 195 vs. LHP)

by Goofus on Jun 27, 2007 11:01 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'll say this for Steve Kline
At the end of the day, he's strong enough to be the whipping boy.
Steve Kline: He's pretty okay!

by groug on Jun 26, 2007 9:37 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

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