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We're going all the way, baby!

174246766_ea2fd78204_tiny by Grant on in News Comment 69 comments

This isn't the start of something beautiful. This isn't the start of a legendary divisional comeback. At the very least, though, the Yankees came into San Francisco at .500, and they left under .500. Satisfaction, defined: Putting the Yankees under .500 in June. Overpriced misery loves overpriced company.

The two high spots of the weekend:

  1. Liking baseball again. There was a part of me that was really scared I'd lose interest in baseball if the Giants were awful for the next five years. That's just not an option. There's always going to be a reason to cheer, even in the 100-loss seasons. Mike Benjamin's consecutive hits streak, Bill Mueller's emergence, pulling out a series-win upset at home...there are always going to be reasons to watch baseball, even in the ugly times.
  2. I loves me some of that young bullpen. They weren't perfect. Brad Hennessey gave up the homer to Alex Rodriguez, Jack Taschner was touched up for a run yesterday, and Randy Messenger gave up a run in the first game, but it's a bullpen that's hard to complain about. I'm still on the Hennessey-as-closer bandwagon, even after the tough weekend. Vinnie Chulk's ERA is creeping closer to Jeremy Accardo's, which would create a 43% drop in justifiable whining over the next few months. Messenger seems to suffer from Tomkosis -- great 'n' nasty stuff, but where are all the strikeouts? -- and yet all he's doing is getting outs. He'll always be the player to be thanked later in the Benitez deal.

    Taschner might be the most frustrating pitcher on the staff, but it's worth noting that he's only allowed an earned run in nine of his 31 appearances. That's not great, but it's not the disaster that you'd expect from a 5.48 ERA. Kevin Correia needs to stop getting grooming tips from Jeff Weaver, but there's no sense in rocking the boat when he's on a roll. I don't cringe when any of the non-Kline pitchers get the call, and even Kline's been pitching well. Very well, actually.

    Trust me, I'd love nothing more than to start a "Free Dan Giese!"-campaign and put a Giese-o-meter up on the front page, but there just isn't space in the bullpen. Who'd've thunk it?  Hopefully Morris gets traded for something sweet, Kline gets traded for an A-ball player, Jonathan Sanchez moves up to the rotation, and we get to see Giese and Pat Misch.

    "The bullpen: It's not just for blaming anymore™".

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Re: We're going all the way, baby!
Meh, I find it hard to blame Taschner yesterday - that was a fly ball that the OF couldn't find, making it a "double". His ERA doesn't deserve that hit.

by Aadik on Jun 25, 2007 11:09 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Re: We're going all the way, baby!
Also, I'm really liking Sanchez. He seems to have been lights out since coming back up. I'm hoping he ends up in the rotation next year (or this year, when Morris is dealt).

by Aadik on Jun 25, 2007 11:10 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Re: We're going all the way, baby!
The problem is that he looks so great because he gets all of those damn strikeouts but he also throws A LOT of meatball fastballs that get nailed for 400+ft homers.
I live life like every week is shark week. Oh and ignore the spelling. I do.....

by someguynamedg on Jun 25, 2007 11:16 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: We're going all the way, baby!
what are you talking about? he's given up 6 in 60 major league innings and gave up 12 in 229 minor league innings pitched. Talking out of your ass i see.
I nominate Common Sense as the new GM of the San Francisco Giants.

by fanofvanlandingham on Jun 25, 2007 12:32 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: We're going all the way, baby!
Analyzing Sanchez, this season at least, means dividing it between pre-demotion and post-promotion.

Before being sent down he was getting rocked. His ERA was close to 6 adn his WHIP close to 2. His k/bb ratio was 21/13 in 14.2 innings. Guys were hitting about

Since being recalled in June, he's been lights out. He has a 1.74 ERA, a 0.77 WHIP and a .118 BAA. He's only walked 4 in 10.1 innings (yeah, still a tad higher than premium) and has struck out 13. He's only given up 2 homers in that time, 1 to Manny (he's a HOFer) and 1 to Mark Ellis (Shit happens). Both were in blowout losses. He's a completely different pitcher. I guess they're crediting it to his rediscovery of his changeup. He's looking like the prospect we all thought he was.

He's not just looking great. He's pitching great.

The Fringe was right.

by nostocksjustbonds on Jun 25, 2007 2:50 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: We're going all the way, baby!
we had two lefties in the bullpen in Taschner and Kline who have struggled against lefties, and so far this season lefties are 4 for 39 (.103) against Sanchez with 19 strikeouts!! His stuff is awesome. It also makes you glad that the Giants won't be buyers at the deadline, because this guy would really haunt us for years to come.
Randy Messenger: "I know it's hard for me to replace Armando in Giants' fans hearts, but I will try my best."

by rxmeister on Jun 25, 2007 11:40 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Re: We're going all the way, baby!
I just loved watching Bonds hae fun playing the game yesterday. This season, nothing has been more heartening to me than seeing the Big Guy drop down to fake a first pitch bunt, single, steal second, and coe home from third on a shallow fly ball to right. All the while smiling like a kid and joking around with everybody involved in the most happy go lucky, friendly sort of way.

Not only does it make watching the game fun, but it also gave the team a real spark at the beginning of what was to become a very solid win. To think that Bonds would bring a youthful, exuberant energy to a game is just astounding. I love it.

Coming to you by proxy (I adopted: Dave Righetti!)

by howtheyscored on Jun 25, 2007 12:06 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

+1
I love how he patted teh Captain!!1(TM) on the face right after he popped up from the slide.
Barry Bombs gear | comics | Ray - sent to his room until he hits

by Natto on Jun 25, 2007 12:13 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: We're going all the way, baby!
Yeah, I said that to my Dad after the game yesterday... everyone's always getting on him for not hustling, for playing like he doesn't care, but he certainly looked like he was going all out yesterday! It was fun to watch. After Klesko's single against Clemens, Barry was really motoring over to third. I thought it was awesome.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.

by jponry on Jun 25, 2007 12:17 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: We're going all the way, baby!
it sort of bothered me, though. Why not hustle like that against EVERYBODY?? I know because of his age he can't do it all of the time, but I would like to have seen a little more of that as we were slipping out of the race.
Randy Messenger: "I know it's hard for me to replace Armando in Giants' fans hearts, but I will try my best."

by rxmeister on Jun 25, 2007 6:52 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: We're going all the way, baby!
It's funny... the immediate reaction is to say it sucks, but the more you look at it, the better it looks.

Sanchez is nasty... they better not trade him unless it's for Miguel Cabrera. Correia's been lights out since April (and is still my favorite Giants bullpen pitcher). Chulk is making the Accardo trade hurt less and less every time he pitches. Hennessey is usually dependable (though they need to get him more regular work, "closer" job be damned.) Messenger probably is most prone to a blow up, but he's been solid. Taschner is uneven, but if he's got good command, he's pretty nasty. Kline still sucks, but even he's pitching okay lately.

I like it! It's not the Padres bullpen (yet), but it's young and it's cheap and that's the best part about it. I love that they're giving younger guys a chance at the job now instead of just handing out multi-million dollar deals to old dudes. Hopefully, they'll realize how much better this strategy is (and they won't try to sign Gagne or anyone to a longterm deal this offseason.)

Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.

by jponry on Jun 25, 2007 12:11 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Re: We're going all the way, baby!
JP is correct about Correia; he had an awful Apr (5.59 ERA = 6 ER/9.2 IP) but has been better than excellent since (May - 1.88 ERA = 3/14.1; June - 2.00 ERA = 2/9).  But he is completely wrong about Kline.  Kline has never sucked.  He has always been sub 4 with his ERA except for his bad year in Baltimore (which allowed us to get him relatively cheaply). and despite his awful May, still has a sub 4 ERA, helped immensely by his excellent June - 00 ERA in 11 IPs.

by allfrank on Jun 25, 2007 12:38 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: We're going all the way, baby!
*she

I honestly didn't realize Kline's ERA was below 4. But I'm still not exactly optimistic about his future success when he's got a 1.68 WHIP and only 6 strikeouts in 22 innings.

That said, I'm glad to have the ~veteran presence~ as long as he's getting outs.

Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.

by jponry on Jun 25, 2007 12:40 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: We're going all the way, baby!
Those numbers, even his ERA, are pretty irrelevant.  He has only had one bad outing, possibly 2.  When we got beat by Oakland, 15-3, he faced 4 batters, retired none, and gave up the slam to Ellis.  4 ERs, 0 IP really screws your ERA.  He took the loss in Colo when he faced one hitter (he started the inning), gave up a hit (which later becomes an ER w/ 0 IP), was relieved by Hennessey, who gave up 2 hits and a BB + an ER of his own.
  So, actually, he has been very consistent and very effective (only gave up 2 other runs in May).

by allfrank on Jun 25, 2007 1:14 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: We're going all the way, baby!
How is it irrelevant? He's been solid so far (and I admitted that I was wrong), but numbers like that don't bode well for the future.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.

by jponry on Jun 25, 2007 1:15 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: We're going all the way, baby!
The WHIP, primarily, because it is inflated by two (at most) awful appearances.  ie, 3 hits, 2 BB, 0 IP.  Sure, the numbers count, but out of several apperances, he's had these two bad ones that make many of his numbers look bad.

by allfrank on Jun 25, 2007 1:29 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: We're going all the way, baby!
Kline's appeared in 27 games and he's allowed baserunners in 20 of them. In 12 of those, he's allowed more than two. He's had a few unlucky outings, but the dude just gives up a lot of baserunners.

Even if you take out those two bad 0 inning appearances, he's still got a WHIP of 1.45. He doesn't have the ability to get a strikeout anymore... it just all adds up to, IMO, a rather ominous future for Steve Kline.

Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.

by jponry on Jun 25, 2007 1:38 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: We're going all the way, baby!
*two or more I mean
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.

by jponry on Jun 25, 2007 1:38 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: We're going all the way, baby!
please don't report this stuff, even if true. How are we supposed to unload him to some sucker looking for lefty relief help??
Randy Messenger: "I know it's hard for me to replace Armando in Giants' fans hearts, but I will try my best."

by rxmeister on Jun 25, 2007 6:54 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: We're going all the way, baby!
Last year, Kline's ERA didn't take into account that he let a high percentage of inherited baserunners score.

If he pulls that shit this year, I'm moving his curfew up an hour.

Steve Kline: He's pretty okay!

by groug on Jun 25, 2007 12:53 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: We're going all the way, baby!
I tried to find proof of that, but I couldn't.

So I'm basing it on a thing I think I heard someone say one time.

Steve Kline: He's pretty okay!

by groug on Jun 25, 2007 12:58 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: We're going all the way, baby!
I think you were basing it on this (http://www.baseballprospectus.com/statistics/sortable/index.php?cid=239551)

He has -7.2 inherited runs prevented, which means he allowed quite a few inherited runners to score than would be expected (that's one of the highest figures I saw, going through the whole thing.) And 6.1 bequeathed runs prevented is also one of the higher figures I saw (so a higher than expected numbers of his own runners were stranded by other relievers.). If you look there, it says that Kline's Run Average was 4.18, but based on those inherited/bequeathed numbers, it should have been 5.27.

Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.

by jponry on Jun 25, 2007 1:12 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: We're going all the way, baby!
ERA can be misleading when it comes to a short reliever; their ERA is often dependant whether or not another reliever was able to clean up their mess or not. They can also be more or less valuable than their ERA indicates depending on how well they clean up the messes they have been brought into. So, in general, there is good reason to be skeptical of a reliever like Kline who has given up a lot of baserunners.

Still, to his credit, according to BP he hasn't allowed any more inherited runners to score this season then he should be expected to, and he hasn't got a lot of help from the pitchers who have relieved him. Only one Giant has been particularly good with inherited runners (Sanchez) and only one has been particularly helped by the people who relieve him (Correia).

Adjusted runs prevented, per BP:

6.3, Sanchez
5.8, Chulk
5.1, Hennessey
3.4, Kline
3.4, Ortiz
3.0, Taschner
2.0, Messenger (5.5 including Florida)
0.8, Correia
-1.5, Benitez (-0.4 including Florida)

Win Expectation above Replacement (This takes into account how important the game situation was, and is surely very forgiving of Kline being shelled in Oakland when the game was already out of reach. It also takes into account the quality of the batters faced.):

0.893, Kline
0.773, Taschner
0.538, Hennessey
0.419, Sanchez
0.399, Ortiz
0.217, Messenger (0.371 including Florida)
0.117, Chulk
0.066, Correia
-0.180, Benitez (-0.060 including Florida)

I don't know exactly how he's doing it, but Kline is definitely getting the job done.

"Robb Nen is going to get you" - Benito Santiago to Chipper Jones, 10/7/02

by Pants Man on Jun 25, 2007 1:11 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: We're going all the way, baby!
It's really nice to see that all of our relievers except for you-know-who has basically been above-average this year.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.

by jponry on Jun 25, 2007 1:13 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: We're going all the way, baby!
I think he does it because he is being used more effectively this year than last.  He often faces only 1 or 2 hitters, virtually nver goes more than an inning.  I looked just at May, since that was his bad stat month.
  He had 10 appearances in which 6 were scoreless.  In 3 appearances he allowed 1 run each.  He had two bad appearances:  the Oak blow out where he got 0 outs, loaded the bases and gave up the slam to Ellis (4 ERs/0 IP).  He had another 0IP game in Colo, starting the inning, giving up a hit; then Hennessey came in gave up a BB and 2 hits, an ER for Kline and one of his own).  In June, in 11.1 IP he's given up 0 runs.

by allfrank on Jun 25, 2007 1:23 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: We're going all the way, baby!
It also explains why our bullpen is so vilified!
Kline is the 57th-best relief pitcher in baseball by this metric (which is a good one, I think).

We have many + relievers, but not ONE who is a stud.  If you toss out "leverage" and look at adjusted runs prevented, Dirty Sanchez, at 56th tops the list.

One thing that might depress this is if the relievers are pitching fewer innings than other staffs, but I am too lazy to look this up.

by zenbitz on Jun 25, 2007 1:29 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: We're going all the way, baby!
No, they are definitely lacking an All-Star in the pen, and they've been below average when it comes to stranding inherited runners. Still, when the pen as a whole is second in the NL and third in all of baseball in RA, it's tough to justify much vilification.
"Robb Nen is going to get you" - Benito Santiago to Chipper Jones, 10/7/02

by Pants Man on Jun 25, 2007 2:01 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: We're going all the way, baby!
I think we've had this conversation before, but I think you're over-reliant on ERA as a measuring stick for pitchers, especially relievers. It doesn't take into account the luck involved with small sample size results, and ignores inherited runners (either they ones they inherit from others, and the one other pitcher's inherit from them).

Early in the year, when many posters (including myself) picked Correia as one of the most reliable relievers, you posted a few comments saying that you simply couldn't understand why people could possibly trust a reliever with a 5+ ERA (which, as it happens, is the same argument several people usedas a reason why it was okay to trade Accardo). The answer to why people trusted Correia is the same as why they liked Accardo: peripherals (or as you like to mockingly refer to them, "peripheries"). He was striking out a lot of guys, not walking many, and not getting hit. His poor ERA had more to do with bad luck and poor fielding (by himself and Todd Linden) than it did with his pitching, and the peripherals showed that. With that in mind, it should be no surprise that his ERA has fallen dramatically.

by English Professor on Jun 25, 2007 1:23 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: We're going all the way, baby!
Actually, I'm not relying on ERA, except to show that, over his career, other than one year in Balt., he's been mid 3s.  That is a pretty good sample size and shows consistency.
  What I go on to say is that he has been remarkably effective this year and that out of all his appearances over the year, he's had only 2 (at most) bad appearances, which have really skewed his numbers.  So, I'm going beyond his numbers, beyond ERA, to look at how/what he's done in actual games.  And in May, for example, his 'worst' month, his numbers for his 10 or so appearances are skewed by 2 bad appearances - or 1 awful and 1 mediocre.

by allfrank on Jun 25, 2007 1:36 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: We're going all the way, baby!
No one is saying that Kline hasn't had a consistent career to this point or that he hasn't done a good job preventing runs so far this year. What people are arguing is that his combination of allowing a lot of baserunners and not striking anyone out does not bode well for his future success.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.

by jponry on Jun 25, 2007 1:43 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: We're going all the way, baby!
Um, judging by this response, I have to assume you didn't read any of my post except for the very first sentence because none of this have anything to do with what I wrote. I was talking about Correia and how you judged HIM just by ERA, but you're talking about Kline, who I never even mentioned.

by English Professor on Jun 25, 2007 1:56 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: We're going all the way, baby!
Since you're determined to make this discussion about Kline, I will say this: Kline's peripherals predict his ERA will rise in the exact same way as Correia's predicted his ERA would fall.

by English Professor on Jun 25, 2007 2:00 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: We're going all the way, baby!
It's where the discussion started.  I was responding to certain comments made by Jponry, some very accurate, some not accurate.  To repeat, my point is that Kline has not this year, nor over his career, "sucked."  Beyond that, I am not making predictions.  It is my feeling that Kline's 2007 WHIP is not particularly useful as it is inflated by 2 outlier appearances.

by allfrank on Jun 25, 2007 3:07 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: We're going all the way, baby!
As I pointed out before, his WHIP is still a poor 1.45 with those two performances taken out.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.

by jponry on Jun 25, 2007 3:20 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: We're going all the way, baby!
True, as far as outliers (which was my point and isn't as strong as I anticipated), but, isn't his WHIP, to date, kind of irrelevant for this year?  For April his WHIP was 1.31 and for June it is 1.24.  For May it was a robust 3.00, giving him a seasonal WHIP of 1.68.  I mean, how do you realistically get picture, from those numbers, of what he has done this year?

by allfrank on Jun 25, 2007 3:53 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: We're going all the way, baby!
While watching him escape the bases-loaded situation against New York was beautiful, the guy caused that situation and was damn lucky to get out of it.

Kline btw has had far more than 2 "bad" appearances. For a reliever, allowing a run is a relatively bad outing, particularly when there is no "inherited runner" situation.

If you want to look at traditional stats look at his whip. It's not pretty. And as traditional stats go, it's really the only one (in addition to k/bb rate) that should be used for relievers.

Do they know to win the game a team has to actually score at least once?

by noahthek on Jun 25, 2007 2:06 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: We're going all the way, baby!
Yeah, I agree that Kline's WHIP makes him a bit of a time bomb, but there is one mitigating factor: he rarely gives up extra-base hits. He hasn't allowed a home run to a lefthanded hitter as a Giant.
"Robb Nen is going to get you" - Benito Santiago to Chipper Jones, 10/7/02

by Pants Man on Jun 25, 2007 2:37 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: We're going all the way, baby!
Well, this is an unrealistic comment.  A "good" ERA is 3.00.  Therefore, a "good" RP can be expected to give up a run every third one inning appearance.  

by allfrank on Jun 25, 2007 3:10 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: We're going all the way, baby!
Of course I read it.  The entire first paragraph seemed to be in response to my earlier post, which was about Kline, and more generally, about ERA.
  And, no, I did not interpret your second paragraph as resurrecting some discussion that took place a month and a half ago

by allfrank on Jun 25, 2007 3:03 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

peripherals
The term "peripherals" is really starting to bother me. Things like strikeout rate, walk rate, BABIP, and groundball/flyball ratio aren't peripheral at all -- they describe with the most precision what actually happened when a pitcher faced a batter. Really, "peripheral" would be best applied to metrics like W-L and ERA.

I propose a terminology-adjustment campaign. Any suggestions?

by Evan on Jun 25, 2007 2:29 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: peripherals
Materials (I like it -- "he was working with some good materials out there tonight")? Particulars? Pragmatics? Bonafides?

by Roger on Jun 25, 2007 3:53 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: peripherals
"Particulars" is good. "Materials" is too much like "stuff," methinks. And it feels sort of judgmental, which isn't quite right. After all, it's possible to be a great ground-ball pitcher or a great fly-ball pitcher. It's possible to be a great pitcher without a lot of strikeouts as long as you don't walk anyone. We need something value-neutral. "Breakdowns"? "Components"?

by Evan on Jun 25, 2007 6:01 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: peripherals
Some people do use the term "components," don't they? It's probably better...
"Robb Nen is going to get you" - Benito Santiago to Chipper Jones, 10/7/02

by Pants Man on Jun 25, 2007 6:38 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: peripherals
And how come we drive on parkways and park on driveways? :)

No, you're right, it's not a very good use of the word. But it is fairly entrenched; when I hear it I immediately think of K's/BB's/HR's and not "of minor importance."

"Robb Nen is going to get you" - Benito Santiago to Chipper Jones, 10/7/02

by Pants Man on Jun 25, 2007 4:00 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: peripherals
And how come if you hit the "foul pole", it's a fair ball?

I've always thought of peripherals as those stats that go beyond "first glance".  Although W-L, SO and ERA might not be the most useful stats, they'll always be what's on the back of the baseball card and the categories they show the leaders in in the sportspage.  

Despite having a "For Sale" sign stapled to his forehead, Ryan Klesko's OPS+ is 123 as of 6/25/07. (Platoon shmlatoon; it's 195 vs. LHP)

by Goofus on Jun 25, 2007 4:36 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: peripherals
Same question re: "foul line."

And yet nobody ever wonders about that one...

Coming to you by proxy (I adopted: Dave Righetti!)

by howtheyscored on Jun 25, 2007 6:06 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: peripherals
I think the word makes most baseball fans skeptical of its real importance: witness some of the debates on this site. It's entrenched, but that can change, right? We need to get some Republican political consultants on the case. They're good at renaming things. "Death tax," etc.

by Evan on Jun 25, 2007 6:04 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: We're going all the way, baby!
Kline may not suck but he's certainly the most boring pitcher in the bullpen to watch.  
Zealously advocating for Nate the Great since 2007.

by orangeandblackattack on Jun 25, 2007 4:27 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: We're going all the way, baby!
Wow, this is one of the longest strings of replies I remember seeing in recent memory.

And the most amazing thing is that it was all about how "ok" Steve Kline is.

Haven't we been over this?

Coming to you by proxy (I adopted: Dave Righetti!)

by howtheyscored on Jun 25, 2007 5:02 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: We're going all the way, baby!
And for once, the Steve Kline okay debate has nothing to do with me.

I find this upsetting.

Steve Kline: He's pretty okay!

by groug on Jun 25, 2007 5:22 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: We're going all the way, baby!
It's funny because we have such talented arms, and with a not-so great beginning to the season, some people were wondering if guys like Taschner, Correia, Hennessey, etc. would ever pan out.  We have to keep in perspective that these kids are so young in their careers in the bigs.  They have all been making strides throughout the entire year.  And they all have battled through the tough times.  We still lack a true closer, but since we aren't in contention this year, that point is moot.  If we let these kids continue to battle and develop, a closer should naturally emerge.
I need old crusty vets like I need a nail driven into my brain.

by BawLa on Jun 25, 2007 12:11 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

not on the hennessey-as-closer bandwagon
I am not on the bandwagon.  I like that Benitez isn't closing, but that's about the most positive thing about the 9th inning I can say.  Just like the other day when Winn robbed what could've been a game-tieing jack off Henn, and the A-Rod homer, people are glossing over the fact that Henny is not a closer.  Are we all just happy he's not benitez?  I'm ok with that.  But a hennessey bandwagon?

Grant, you ignorant slut.  Since Benitez was unloaded he has as many blown saves as has saves.  I'm not saying he doesn't have a chance of working out in the long run, but what is there to be excited about?

"They can trade me," Bonds said. "I don't think they will, though. It's not like I want to be traded, man. I'm a Giant. I'm stuck here till the end."!

by GameSix on Jun 25, 2007 12:17 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Re: not on the hennessey-as-closer bandwagon
shoulda been more clear.  since benitez was unloaded, HENNESSEY as as many blown saves as saves.
"They can trade me," Bonds said. "I don't think they will, though. It's not like I want to be traded, man. I'm a Giant. I'm stuck here till the end."!

by GameSix on Jun 25, 2007 12:18 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: not on the hennessey-as-closer bandwagon
In Hennessey's defense, he hasn't been getting regular work in lately, since the Giants haven't been in a "save" situation for a while. When he has been pitching often, he was consistently throwing strikes and even getting his fastball into the mid 90s, something he never did as a starter. I think if he gets into more games, he'll be able to settle back down again.
Barry Bombs gear | comics | Ray - sent to his room until he hits

by Natto on Jun 25, 2007 12:40 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Hennessey
Is not really a great future closer.  However, I have no problem watching Hennessy because he makes the other team beat him.  He may have limited stuff but he pitches with a lion's heart.  
Zealously advocating for Nate the Great since 2007.

by orangeandblackattack on Jun 25, 2007 4:31 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Hennessey
You make him sound positively Ecksteinian.
Tim Flannery? More like Tim Flattery!

by pme on Jun 25, 2007 5:47 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Hennessey
I don't know about that. I've heard some great stuff about his slider. Something to the tune of "two shades shy of Robb Nen."

I don't know what I think of Henny's long term projections as a closer. As early as the beginning of this year I was skeptical of his short term projections as a player, and he's seriously turned me around on that.

Whatever you say about him, he's done nothing but improve and prove me wrong since he got here. He's got a thing for words that end in p-r-o-v-e, I guess. So we'll see where he goes.

He's already shown velocity, control, and a slider that NOBODY knew he had coming into the year. He might surprise us again.

Coming to you by proxy (I adopted: Dave Righetti!)

by howtheyscored on Jun 25, 2007 6:03 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: We're going all the way, baby!
I love Grant's proposed moves and I have been a strong proponent of Sanchez as a starter.  But I thought I would look at how his numbers compare to our other starters to see how ready he is.  I am using just his June numbers as his April/May numbers were awful.

Name         vs     Avg   OBP
Sanchez      LH     103   239
                 RH     294   438
Lowry         LH     194   271
                 RH     263   356
Morris        LH      263   309
                RH      272   341
Cain          LH      222   337
                RH      227   304
Zito          LH       333   411
                RH      223   308
Lincecum     LH     245   342
                 RH      220   283

  What I think stands out is that he still has major difficulties against RH hitters.  Lineups would be stacked with RH hitters, so he could have real problems as a starter, if he doesn't become considerably more effective against them.  On balance, I think his numbers look worse than Lincecum's and we know how he's been hit around.  I think his numbers look worse than Zito's, particularly considering he'll (Sanchez) see almost exclusively RH hitters.  He may not be ready yet.

by allfrank on Jun 25, 2007 12:26 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Sanchez should be starting in Fresno
He may not be ready yet.

Very true. Sanchez has pitched just over 100 innings above single A ball. That would even include his ML experience with SF. He needs experience and seasoning. He should be able to get this starting every fifth day with Fresno. This would aid his development and he could refine his craft.

by wilriv21 on Jun 25, 2007 2:21 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Sanchez should be starting in Fresno
Yeah.  A lot of starters are jumping right from AA to the majors with minimal or no time at AAA, but Sanchez doesn't really have many innings as a starter anywhere.

Does the team really see him as a starter?  If they do, he should probably be sent down to AAA to get his stamina up.

by North Side Chicago Expatriate Giants Fan on Jun 25, 2007 3:06 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Sanchez should be starting in Fresno
He pitched in relief in AAA, sporadically at first, so I don't know what the organization wants to do with him. I too think he needs to be starting and needs to be in AAA to work up stamina. I thought that was the plan last year too when he was sent down then brought back up for September. Oh well.
Strikeouts are boring. Besides that, they're fascist. Not boring: Emmanuel Burriss. Not fascist: SF Dugout

by BaronVonCurrentEvents on Jun 25, 2007 3:19 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Sanchez should be starting in Fresno
How are his secondary pitches looking? At the beginning of the year, they were pretty much useless. (I haven't been able to watch the games lately.) If he's going to start, he needs to put in a lot of time on those.

by Evan on Jun 25, 2007 6:05 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: We're going all the way, baby!
so when do we get David Weathers?
The Fringe was right.

by nostocksjustbonds on Jun 25, 2007 2:51 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Re: We're going all the way, baby!
5 minutes before the trading deadline sounds right to me
Proud Papa of Brad Hennessey since 2007. Newly minted closer?

by AndYourBirdCanSing on Jun 25, 2007 4:09 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: We're going all the way, baby!
So I'm guessing they won't skip Timmeh Time in the rotation this time around.
Strikeouts are boring. Besides that, they're fascist. Not boring: Emmanuel Burriss. Not fascist: SF Dugout

by BaronVonCurrentEvents on Jun 25, 2007 4:16 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Re: We're going all the way, baby!
supposedly, they're going to skip timmy's next start...

by travis j bagdad on Jun 25, 2007 5:33 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

OT (and apologies to the Artist)
Has anyone else seen those "Martyr" shirts , with Barry on the cross?
I happened upon the site , but forgot to jot down the location...I may be in NY in a month and would LOVE to show it off.
Disturbing: How fast we sank after losing Armando.

by victor frankenstein on Jun 25, 2007 5:48 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Re: We're going all the way, baby!
I'm not sure I agree with the diagnosis of Tomkosis for Messenger.  The comparison of non-strikeouts per stuff ratio is close, but Tomko was/is much more prone to the HR than Messenger is.
Did you see my shirt? Jeter Drinks Wine Coolers

by milesntrane on Jun 25, 2007 6:59 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Re: We're going all the way, baby!
It was only referring to the good stuff/few strikeouts angle. The homers would be a whole 'nother affliction....

by Grant on Jun 25, 2007 8:24 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

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