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Sweeney v. Ellison: Steel Cage Match

It all goes back to politics. Barry Bonds told someone that Mark Sweeney invited him over, put "Sister Christian" on the hi-fi, and forced two duffel bags of amphetamines in Bonds' car as Chad Santos lit firecrackers off inside the house. There was a whole foofarah about it, Sweeney denied it all, Bonds apologized for even hinting at such a thing, and the team moved on. That was it.

Except that the Giants don't need Mark Sweeney now. He's a lefty who can't play anything but first and left, and the Giants already have the store-brand variety with Ryan Klesko. When a spot start is needed at first, Aurilia is on the bench and Feliz can always slide over to first in a pinch. Bruce Bochy isn't big on letting Dave Roberts start against lefties, so a right-handed center fielder would make all kinds of sense. Maybe Todd Linden could be that center fielder, but he isn't anyone's idea of a defensive whiz at a corner. He could be brutal in center.

Jason Ellison tore up the PCL last season, and he had an amazing spring training last March. He's having another great spring, and it's possible that the only poor offensive stretch he's had in the past year was 85 major league at-bats scattered over 83 games in six months. After his torrid spring in `06, he had six at-bats in April, and 19 in May. It's easy to give him a pass for those limited and scattered at-bats.

Ellison isn't a world-beater. He isn't ever going to be a starter on a good team, and he's probably a fringe bench player on a good bench. But he fits a need for this incarnation of the Giants, and there's that 5% chance that maybe - just maybe - the .400 hitter from Fresno is for real. Ellison is out of options, so he'll likely be with another organization if he doesn't break with the team in April.

So, if Ellison continues his huge spring - and it's obviously still early - the Giants have a decision to make. Trading Sweeney could be a public relations disaster, but he doesn't really have a spot on this team. The Ellison fan club around here could meet in a phone booth, but I can see him putting up .270/.340/.400 for several years at the major league minimum. That's the long-term view, but in the short term he's also a perfect complement for Dave Roberts.

There are probably more than a few teams who could use Sweeney as a pinch-hitting specialist. I just don't see how the Giants are one of them, and I hope the furor has died down enough for him to be traded. The phone booth is open, and I've brought artichoke dip.

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Re: Sweeney v. Ellison: Steel Cage Match
I've been as big a Jason Ellison fan as any of the other people in the phone booth, but facts are facts. His limited ABs notwithstanding (owing mostly to Felipe thinking he was just a batboy for much of last spring), when he's gotten into games that count, he hasn't shown much beyond a propensity for boneheaded baserunning and defensive miscues.

The Giants should and will choose Sweeney over Ellison. Jason will then move onto another team, where he'll undoubtedly rake the ball, make Sports Center's "Web Gems" at least 10 times this season, and fill us all with a deep sense of regret. That's the way it usually works.

by Kitspool on Mar 8, 2007 1:31 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Re: Sweeney v. Ellison: Steel Cage Match
On days when Ryan Klesko plays first base (which should probably be almost every time the Giants face a righty), Todd Linden would be the only lefty swinger on the bench if Mark Sweeney were let go.

Ellison does indeed make a decent complement to the lefty-hitting Dave Roberts, who probably shouldn't be playing much against southpaws, but Linden can also replace Roberts.  Still, Ellison's versatility and his likely being the only purely righthanded hitter in the outfield has value as the Giants fifth outfielder.

One could also make an argument for Lance Niekro as the only purely righthanded bat on the bench aside from Eliezer Alfonzo, who would likely pinch hit only in the ninth inning.

The answer to facilitating more of these bats would seem to be sending Kevin Frandsen back to Fresno to work on being a more patient hitter, waiting for more pitches he can drive, and to work on his defense on the left side of the infield.  In the event of an injury to Ray Durham, he could be recalled to back up Rich Aurilia at the keystone or to start at the position.

The second step would be to limit the pitching staff to 11 pitchers.  Keep in mind that those fans who are in their 30's or more can remember when teams somehow got by on as few as 10 hurlers.  While it likely isn't a good idea to stretch out the Giants starters, a more prudent usage of the bullpen could seeming allow a team to get by rather well with "only" 11 pitchers.

Assuming Russ Ortiz is the #5 starter, that would still leave a bullpen of Hennessey, Correia, Kline, Chulk, Sanchez and either Wilson or Sadler -- assuming Benitez is traded.

Is it really necessary to limit most relievers to a single inning?  And is it necessary to make so many lefty-righty switches?

Given that major-league rosters used to be made up only 40% of pitchers, is it really an effective use of talent to have 48% of the spots on a roster occupied by pitchers?  Wouldn't 44% make a nice compromise?

by sharksrog on Mar 8, 2007 1:36 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Re: Sweeney v. Ellison: Steel Cage Match
I agree.
I own my own business and I'm a giants fan; being a Giants fan is harder.

by hairball on Mar 8, 2007 2:21 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Lefty/righty fetish
Thanks, Sharks! The most over-rated, over-fetishized, over-emphasized wrinkle in baseball is the lefty-righty matchup. If my math is right, it OVERALL works out to be a difference in BA of .005. That's five one-thousandths. Big frickity woop de woop.  (Certainly, among 700 MLB batters, there are SOME who hit better/worse than that against a pitcher with the same hand/opposite hand, but those are exceptions. We are talking about insignificance for the huge vast majority of batters.)

It's all bullcrap. Managers don't (usually) juggle their STARTING rotation to match the other team's lineup; why is it all of a sudden so crucial in the 8th and 9th inning if it didn't matter in the first 7 innings?  (Yes, it happens on extremely rare occasions that a manager will skip a starter for perceived strategic reasons, but it's rare and it's not proveable that it helps.)

Love Giants; get heart and mind fried by Giants; repeat.

by Mayor of 311 on Mar 9, 2007 10:44 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Lefty/righty fetish
Keep in mind, those overall differences you are calculating are in a league where batters who are perceived to have problems against lefties or righties sit out many games against them; so the players with the most extreme splits are not going to be factoring in to that overall data. I think they are definitely exaggerated (particularly due to sample sizes), but there are players with significant splits that are worth taking into account.
DFA Everybody

by JakeS on Mar 9, 2007 11:23 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Sweeney v. Ellison: Steel Cage Match
Okay, okay. You win. Frustrating though he is, Jason Ellison needs to be on this team. Given the rest of the roster, a speedy right-handed outfielder beats an old lefty first baseman hands down.

I'm still not convinced that Klesko can come back at all, though. Maybe they can go with ten pitchers for a few weeks till they see how Klesko's shaping up.

by Evan on Mar 8, 2007 1:37 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Re: Sweeney v. Ellison: Steel Cage Match
It is possible that Elli can hit.  But that is possible ONLY if he is playing regularly, which he will not be doing on the big club.  Thus, his 85 major league ABs are far more indicative of what he will do in the role forecast for him.
  On the other hand, he'll only bring one scuffed ball in trade, whereas Sweeney might bring two bags of brand new balls.

by allfrank on Mar 8, 2007 1:45 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Re: Sweeney v. Ellison: Steel Cage Match
Headline: Mark Kotsay, down for at least half the season.

Brring, brring!

Billy Beane: Hello?
Brian Sabean: Billy! MoneyBilly! BillyB!
BB: Sigh. Hi Brian.
BS: Hey, just perusing the ol' Arizona Republic, and I saw...
BB: I'll take Ellison and Jonathan Sanchez for Marco Scutaro.
BS: Wha...how did you know I was going to ask...
BB: OK, OK, you're killing me, my bad, see what I get for trying to outfox you. Ellison and Sanchez, throw in that utility whatsisname, Frandsen, and you can have Scutaro AND Chad Bradford.
BS: But...Bradford...isn't he...
BB: Did I say Bradford? Sorry -- Gaudin. Chad Gaudin. Good looking kid. He's not really French, it just sounds like it.

etc.

Never mind whatever I do!!! Fan is my tresure!!!

by leftymalo on Mar 8, 2007 2:03 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Re: Sweeney v. Ellison: Steel Cage Match
Nothing is better than this.
Saving countless runs with my defense

by lyricalkiller on Mar 8, 2007 2:11 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Sweeney v. Ellison: Steel Cage Match
You are more ornery than Bill Brasky.
Save The Pitcher. Save The World

by E Ticket on Mar 8, 2007 2:56 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Sweeney v. Ellison: Steel Cage Match
I heard Sweeney held Bonds hostage and cut off the head of his live-in girlfriend's cat.
Saving countless runs with my defense

by lyricalkiller on Mar 8, 2007 2:09 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Re: Sweeney v. Ellison: Steel Cage Match
has Ellison been raking Major League pitching in ST or has he faced mostly minor leaguers?
We'd be pretty good if we didn't suck so bad.

by nostocksjustbonds on Mar 8, 2007 2:33 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Re: Sweeney v. Ellison: Steel Cage Match
The difference I see between the two is that Ellison at least has potential for a break-out year. You can completely play the what-if game with him. Felipe killed his season last year and Bochy will certainly give him enough at bats to pacify him if he makes the roster.

With Sweeney, you know what you're going to get. His ceiling isn't as high as Ellison's. (I guess his basement isn't as low either). Anyway, I just think that, given the choice, you go with the younger guy who can run because Sweeney and Ellison will both horribly misplay balls in the outfield but at least Ellison can catch up with it faster as it rolls toward triple's alley.

Also, I kind of like the idea of playing with a pitcher-light roster so that each guy really has a defined role.

by saveuszito on Mar 8, 2007 2:40 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Re: Sweeney v. Ellison: Steel Cage Match
Aye aye, cap'n.
I own my own business and I'm a giants fan; being a Giants fan is harder.

by hairball on Mar 8, 2007 2:49 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Sweeney v. Ellison: Steel Cage Match
Also, Sweeney would be the most redundant person on the roster, while an Ellison type - at least in terms of roster construction - kind of makes sense.
Coming to you by proxy

by howtheyscored on Mar 8, 2007 3:15 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Sweeney v. Ellison: Steel Cage Match
It has to be, although we may have to throw Ellison in with Mando for the Marlins to bite.
wCovington

by wcovington on Mar 10, 2007 7:07 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Sweeney v. Ellison: Steel Cage Match
Klinger vs Radar
Herb Tarlick vs Les Nessman
Marlin Perkins vs Croc Hunter

WTFGAS

Save The Pitcher. Save The World

by E Ticket on Mar 8, 2007 2:59 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Re: Sweeney v. Ellison: Steel Cage Match
Hey, if you take away my gift for quibbling over minor roster moves, you take away my livelihood.

by Grant on Mar 8, 2007 4:25 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Sweeney v. Ellison: Steel Cage Match
Well, since you put it that way..... Can you do a Benitez vs Thighler?
Save The Pitcher. Save The World

by E Ticket on Mar 8, 2007 4:34 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Steered in a new direction
That's no quibble. That's a beef.

by Moggeee on Mar 8, 2007 4:42 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Steered in a new direction
Quibble v. Beef
We'd be pretty good if we didn't suck so bad.

by nostocksjustbonds on Mar 8, 2007 5:21 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Quibble von Beef
New and nutritious, from Campbell's.

by Moggeee on Mar 8, 2007 5:25 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Quibble von Beef
Matt Cain vs Bill Brasky
Save The Pitcher. Save The World

by E Ticket on Mar 8, 2007 6:43 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

No contest
Ellison looks better than Sweeney in a sundress.

by Moggeee on Mar 8, 2007 4:40 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Sweeney v. Ellison: Steel Cage Match
Now, now, let's be fair.

There's no way that Marlon Perkins would go up against the Croc Hunter himself.  He'd send Jim to do it, like always.

by Skaldheim on Mar 9, 2007 12:00 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Sweeney v. Ellison: Steel Cage Match
The correct answer to Grant's trick question is, of course, "C - neither one." Instead, you cover the OF with other part-time players, not backups. Linden becomes the full-time starter in RF, and Winn and Roberts platoon in CF. So Ellison isn't needed as Roberts' platoon partner. The only potential problem is when Bonds sits against a lefty; Roberts is also definitely benched and, most likely, so is Klesko. In those instances, Peter Happy grabs his outfielder's glove and sets off towards the giant Coke bottle. Kevin plays 3B and Richie Ballgame assumes 1B.

Nice try, Grant. Next you'll be asking us who's buried in your tomb.

Avoid the rush later - join the Waiting for Josh Vitters bandwagon now!

by Lyle on Mar 8, 2007 3:42 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Re: Sweeney v. Ellison: Steel Cage Match
Me. I got evicted from the Vatican Catacombs.
Save The Pitcher. Save The World

by E Ticket on Mar 8, 2007 4:32 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Sweeney v. Ellison: Steel Cage Match
You mean we're not allowed to release Pete Happy after June 15?!
wCovington

by wcovington on Mar 10, 2007 7:09 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Sweeney v. Ellison: Steel Cage Match
Hey, I LIKE Linden's defense! What's wrong with his defense, Grant?

Ellison needs to play somewhere else. Preferably in the American League. Think Billy Beane will trade Harden for him? After all he is

SCORCHING HOT.
yob

by Sayhey on Mar 8, 2007 3:46 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Re: Sweeney v. Ellison: Steel Cage Match
The answer to your question lies within.

But beware. Better men before you have sought the secret of Magellan's Compass, and all have failed.

Coming to you by proxy

by howtheyscored on Mar 8, 2007 4:31 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Sweeney v. Ellison: Steel Cage Match
That's clever, but I keep remembering plays like this one on Sept. 6th. The man has talent and is learning to read the ball off the bat much, much better than in his first go round.

But to the real point, Sweeney is a force off the bench in late innings and Ellison is a spring training wonder who will never amount to much. Trade the latter while someone might be impressed with his stats.

yob

by Sayhey on Mar 8, 2007 9:32 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Sweeney v. Ellison: Steel Cage Match
I'd prefer keeping Sweeney. Better for the clubhouse and I think his pinch hitting suits the team better.

Against lefties we can have Winn play CF with Linden in right. I realize Winn is inferior against lefties , but I'll take Randy Winn vs anyone over Jason Ellison.

Give me the 2 pure lefty bats off the bench por favor. The Giants will be going with 3  inexperienced players on the bench (Frandsen, Linden, Alfonzo) all of whom have little pinch hitting experience. Then we have Klesko who has been an everyday player most of his career and will likely see lots of starts when he's healthy here.

Sweeney is a proven pinch hitter and I don't feel Ellison brings anything to the table that outweighs Sweeney's PH ability and his clubhouse presence. If Ellison were a Bill Hall type (solely in the sense that he could play INF and CF) than I might feel differently but he is not

http://giantsoffseason.blogspot.com

by NeifiChicken on Mar 8, 2007 5:39 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Where did my life go wrong?
I prefer Sweeney to Ellison.

But I'll admit, it kind of depends on how Bochy deploys the roster. I'd like to see a Klesko/Aurilia/Feliz platoon at the corners where Klesko starts against most righties and Aurilia plays most of the time -- either at third or at first. This would make Sweeney the top lefty pinch hitter off the bench, a job he's well suited for.

Second, I don't think Linden's defense is all that bad. He's fine in left and right. I'm willing to tolerate Linden in center, but Winn can certainly handle that position regardless.

I say we see what kind of return a Benitez and Ellison offer would get us from the Marlins, who are desperate for a center fielder.

Also, I'm drunk.

by Dan from NM on Mar 8, 2007 7:54 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Re: Where did my life go wrong?
Yes, but in the morning you will be sober, and we will still be ugly.
Never mind whatever I do!!! Fan is my tresure!!!

by leftymalo on Mar 9, 2007 8:06 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Where did my life go wrong?
Not only did I suggest the same thing (Mando & Ellison to Marlins), but I also like Linden's defense. Who needs Buster Olney when we've got us?
wCovington

by wcovington on Mar 10, 2007 7:13 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Sweeney v. Ellison: Steel Cage Match
The only problem with this scenario is Klesko's health.  Big Ryan has spent a helluva lot of time on the DL in his career.  Right now he's down wlth the seemingly ubiquitous oblique strain.  Those things can hang around a long time.  Yes, if Klesko is healthy, he makes Sweeney redundant, but will he be healthy?

by DrBGiantsfan on Mar 8, 2007 8:34 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Re: Sweeney v. Ellison: Steel Cage Match
Good point. And between Klesko's current injury, the legitimate chance that someone else on this old roster will be hurt when the season starts, and the fact that it wouldn't absolutely kill them to carry "only" 11 pitchers for awhile, I would bet that we see both Sweeney and Ellison on Opening Day.

If they do have to choose, I would have to go with Ellison. If we could pencil in a year like 2004 or 2005 for Sweeney, that would be different, but Sweeney wasn't that hitter in 2006 (or 2000-2003 for that matter). He's 37 and his 259 at-bats last year were a career high. He had a .565 OPS at AT&T last year, and a .373 OPS vs. lefties. (And, believe it or not: .551 as a pinch hitter.) So, basically he's an older guy with a career slugging precentage of .401 that you can't use at home, can't use vs. lefties, and don't particularly want in the field or running the bases. He can draw a walk from time to time, and he's great in the clubhouse, but I'd rather keep a more athletic player and let Tim Flannery try to keep everybody loose.

And then I'd pray that Ellison quickly gets over whatever mental block makes him unable to catch the ball or run the bases in the big leagues.

"Robb Nen is going to get you" - Benito Santiago to Chipper Jones, 10/7/02

by Pants Man on Mar 9, 2007 12:27 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Sweeney v. Ellison: Steel Cage Match
"Jason, you've got spunk...I hate spunk."

The kid has some talent and tons of desire, but he goes noodles when he's in our outfield -- those painful goofs in critical situations. He needs to go somewhere else, probably following the raking-for-another-team scenario suggested by Kitspool, and probably via a harebrained trade as suggested by LeftyMalo.

Besides, the Bonds/Sweeny thing will develop into a great Martin-and-Lewis act as the season goes on...

by reeky on Mar 9, 2007 7:57 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

Cholera or Dysentary?
You know how choosing whether to go out Saturday night with Halle Berry or Salma Hayek would be a GOOD forced choice to have to make?  Go 180 degrees opposite that, then push it out beyond that punk bitch Pluto's orbit, douse it in putrefied fecal coliforms, and that's what this choice is.  (christ, I have been reading modern sportswriting too much.)

Sweeney is pretty ineffective, despite being, I am sure, a nice fella.  Ellison likewise, and frankly, I am well past tired of the excuses for Ellison of "not enough playing time" or whatever. A baseball being hit off a bat and traveling in an arc is the same phenomenon whether it occurs at AT&T Park, Fresno's park, Ellison's high school field, his Little League fields, and every point on Earth that is below 3000 feet and still on land. DEFENSE is the ONE CONSTANT in ALL sports.  Ellison is and always will be a chucklehead.  

And as for not getting enough playing time to improve his batting, OTHER GUYS manage to earn their way into more playing time one way or the other, but he hasn't. Therefore, the fact that he hasn't gotten enough ABs to improve his hitting is also properly placed at his (quick but randomly directed) feet.

Yes, that's right, you heard me. I called Jason Ellison a chucklehead, and I'll take on the lot of you.

Love Giants; get heart and mind fried by Giants; repeat.

by Mayor of 311 on Mar 9, 2007 10:56 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

oh, yeah--
Forgot to express which of these guys I would dump. PROBABLY Ellison, but I admit that after reading all the good points on this diary, it's a tougher choice than I would have originally thought.  

My hope: someone impresses enough in spring training to make dumping both those guys thinkable.

Love Giants; get heart and mind fried by Giants; repeat.

by Mayor of 311 on Mar 9, 2007 10:59 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Cholera or Dysentary?
I like how this guy thinks, let's put Salma Hayek in center field.
DFA Everybody

by JakeS on Mar 9, 2007 11:24 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Cholera or Dysentary?
...and raise the prices on bleacher seats.
You're nobody 'til everybody in
this town thinks you're a bastard - Elvis Costello

by EliminateMe on Mar 9, 2007 11:44 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Cholera or Dysentary?
Sweeney is pretty ineffective, despite being, I am sure, a nice fella.  Ellison likewise, and frankly, I am well past tired of the excuses for Ellison of "not enough playing time" or whatever. A baseball being hit off a bat and traveling in an arc is the same phenomenon whether it occurs at AT&T Park, Fresno's park, Ellison's high school field, his Little League fields, and every point on Earth that is below 3000 feet and still on land. DEFENSE is the ONE CONSTANT in ALL sports.  Ellison is and always will be a chucklehead.

Before you get too worked up in your frustration with the choice of Sweeney and Ellison, let's remember that this is the 25th spot on the roster we're talking about.  Let me remind you of three guys:

  • Cedric Durst 248/281/353
  • Julie Vera 238/273/381
  • Benny Bengough 247/281/353
Yes, even the '27 Yankees had crap at the bottom of their roster.
Biggest mankinder in the history of no brain.

by Goofus on Mar 9, 2007 12:25 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Julie Vera... pretty sure I dated her in the 1990s
Dude had not-one-but-TWO chick names?
Love Giants; get heart and mind fried by Giants; repeat.

by Mayor of 311 on Mar 9, 2007 1:06 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Cholera or Dysentary?
I thought this was an "E" homage.

by zenbitz on Mar 9, 2007 3:53 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Cholera or Dysentary?
Hey Mayor, do you mean chucklehead in a good way or in a really good way?
wCovington

by wcovington on Mar 10, 2007 7:18 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Sweeney v. Ellison: Steel Cage Match
This battle royale even has its own theme song...

I still go with Sweeney here. I think we need a reliable bat off the bench more than BBPLIDR.

You're nobody 'til everybody in
this town thinks you're a bastard - Elvis Costello

by EliminateMe on Mar 9, 2007 11:43 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

Re: Sweeney v. Ellison: Steel Cage Match
Stop the bickering. Sweeney and Elli and Mando to the Marlins for Cabrera. Okay, so drop in Pete Happy too. I heard it on KNBR!
wCovington

by wcovington on Mar 10, 2007 7:22 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

I like your thinking, Wes
Angels fly because they take Brian Sabean lightly.

by Mayor of 311 on Mar 14, 2007 8:28 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

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