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Fleas

Each day without a transaction is a day closer to Pedro Feliz back on the team. Brian Sabean has been adamant about not giving Feliz a three-year deal, which, if you want to read between the lines, leaves open the possibility of a two-year deal.

It's been too long, old friend.

The new buzz is that Feliz is an average third baseman. See, you take his atrocious hitting (14 runs below the average hitter according to Baseball Prospectus) and combine it with his brilliant fielding (28 runs above the average fielder at third according to Mitchel Lichtman) to get an average player. Maybe even above-average. It seems counterintuitive, as we're used to the Pedro Feliz who doesn't even make the first page cut on a list of third basemen sorted by offensive contributions. But his defense really is outstanding, so maybe....

Let me just go on record: I don't care. I'm tired of watching Feliz hit. It's a pretty intellectually defunct position to take. Stats shouldn't be treated as the end of the debate, but they should be a part of the debate. Defensive stats might be less refined than offensive stats, but they've come a long way in the past decade.

But I don't care. If Feliz contributes two extra wins to the 2008 Giants over, oh, Sean Burroughs or Tom O'Malley, I don't care. That's probably the difference between 70 wins and 72 wins. Maybe 80 and 82 if a lot of things break right.

Two extra wins for a non-contender, or watching hundreds of stomach-turning at-bats for the eighth season in a row? The obvious retort is, "Well, just who is going to play third?" I don't care. Anyone else. Please.

Is this an ignorant position to take?

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Re: Fleas
Yes, it's an ignorant position, and you're an ignorant person for taking it.

Pedro Feliz should be our 3rd baseman next year, because without him, we have no reason to post cat pictures in gameday threads.

Not that one would NEED a reason...

Aurilia sounds like a planet out of StarFox.

by Gabafnerhagen on Dec 28, 2007 3:05 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Re: Fleas
Here at McCovey Chronicles there is always a reason to post cat pictures.
Nattowear | comics | Durham? I hardly know 'im!

by Natto on Dec 28, 2007 3:11 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

No its not
I'm with you one hundred percent. No flowery language, no haiku's as to how much I don't want to see him bat, nothing.

DO NOT WANT

And Boom Goes the Dynamite

by Andy from DC on Dec 28, 2007 3:10 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Re: Fleas
It's an ignorant position to take only in the sense that lots of the 2007 Giants produced stomach-turning at-bats and we can presume lots of the 2008 Giants will as well. Singling out Pedro is unfair. At least the dude can field his position.

Also, it's becoming a McCoven tradition to make fun of Fleas' at-bats. He's the Julia Allison to our Gawker, if you will. </obscure internet blog reference>

Lon Simmons' adopted dad.

by Kitspool on Dec 28, 2007 3:12 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Re: Fleas
It's an ignorant position to take only in the sense that lots of the 2007 Giants produced stomach-turning at-bats and we can presume lots of the 2008 Giants will as well. Singling out Pedro is unfair.

Feliz can take them all with him. Feliz, Dave Roberts, Rich Aurilia, Ray Durham, and a copy of Rock Band on the Xbox 360 = more fun for them, more fun for us.

by Grant on Dec 28, 2007 3:23 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Fleas
Make it Wii Bowling and you've got yourself a deal, sir.
Lon Simmons' adopted dad.

by Kitspool on Dec 28, 2007 3:32 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Fleas
Rock Band > Wii bowling, in this shmoe's opinion.
***

Succumb to the Enchanted t-shirt! Adopted dad of Minor Izzy

by hairball on Dec 28, 2007 4:02 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Best score?
I had myself up to 277 one game but then haven't played for a while.
Coming to you from the Land of Many Beers

by WalrusMan on Dec 28, 2007 8:21 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Fleas
I got an obscure reference for a change.  She seems annoying beyond belief, but I think many would like to grudge sex her.

by out machine on Dec 28, 2007 3:32 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Broken record
The important thing to remember, is that in giving Lincoln another 2-3 year contract, the Giants are effectively stating that he is the third baseman of the (immediate) future. The Giants, whether they admit it or not, are not going to compete and are in a transitional period. Unless ownership and management pull their head from the sand, our team will perpetually be 2-3 years away from even being on the road towards contention.
Hitler's favorite baseball team was the Dodgers. I'm pretty sure.

by UnderRadar on Dec 28, 2007 3:23 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Re: Broken record
Love the signature line! -Happy New Year

by Glasscock on Dec 28, 2007 6:20 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Broken record
Ach! But Der Fuhrer's favorite futbol team was the Linz Lederhosen:

Ambiguous Men in Tights

by Moggeee on Dec 31, 2007 2:01 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Fleas
If he doesn't come back I won't miss being mocked and given "I told you so" glances from people in neighboring seats after I yell "Ugh. Swing at another first pitch, Pedro. Swing at another dirt ball. He's going to K on a curve that bounces up there" and then he rips a double. Pedro is at least partly responsible for my ulcer and you know he's coming back.

by Goat on Dec 28, 2007 3:32 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Re: Fleas
Holy shit, how did that cat get over the moat? Run!
"There's not enough bases out there to intentionally walk everybody you want to." - Grady Little

by leftymalo on Dec 28, 2007 3:43 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

I myself...
Blame that on the earthquake.
Coming to you from the Land of Many Beers

by WalrusMan on Dec 28, 2007 8:22 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

CArney Lansford?
Any chance Carney Lansford might be able to work with Feliz and get better results than Joe Lefebvre?

I guess I don't want to see Feliz back because it takes away another place where Kevin Frandsen might play regularly.  When asked about Frandsen, Sabean has at least twice responded that he will get a chance to start at 3B.  Notice he did not mention anything about 2B in those comments.  Conclusion:  Ray Durham is the starting 2B for 2008.  Not that I particularly want Frandsen to be our third baseman, or that will be better there in 2008 than Feliz, but I want him to play somewhere.

by DrBGiantsfan on Dec 28, 2007 3:50 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Re: CArney Lansford?
I concur. Which means, I guess, that I don't cur. Grant seems to cur a little too much.
***

Succumb to the Enchanted t-shirt! Adopted dad of Minor Izzy

by hairball on Dec 28, 2007 4:04 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: CArney Lansford?
Hoping that Carney Landsford can help Feliz would qualify you as optimist of the year. There is absolutely no reason to believe, after all his major league ABs, that Feliz will ever know how to be aggressive at the plate without flailing wildly at breaking balls in the dirt. I had the same hope when Moises Alou signed with the Giants. Here was a fellow country-man with a superb approach at the plate and Pedro learned absolutely nothing from him. It is long past the time for Feliz to start learning how to use his ABs wisely.

by marklar on Dec 31, 2007 11:45 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Fleas
Yes, you are ignorant. Probably because your mental capacity is diminished from hitting your head against the wall every time Fleas swings at at a breaking ball in the dirt, so I forgive you, but still...

I was as big a Pedro basher as it gets, but mgl's stats don't lie. The Giants will be much worse without him than with him, maybe 3-4 games. Not to mention the fact that taking a bathroom break every three innings is much more pleasant than spending a year living with the fear every day that Sabes will trade 1/2 of Caincicum for Eric Chavez.

by billiejameshayes on Dec 28, 2007 3:51 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Re: Fleas
Let's see Frandsen start at 3B, with Velez taking the last  roster spot as utility guy / pinch runner.However, since Rich Aurilia is on the team, and can play 3B, there is no way Frandsen will ever start at the hot corner.

Over the years, I have liked and supported Feliz more than almost all Giants fans, because as a paying customer I truly get off on spectacular fielding. I'm sure the Giants pitchers like solid "d" behind them. But I also surmise that Giants pitchers like getting some runs produced by the offense. So, please, no Feliz, unless we are looking at something like 2 years / $5m to be a "super sub."

You know, Pedro Feliz would be a hell of a utility guy, if only the Giants would pay him (and play him!) as such. Time is on the Giants side with this one, as the rest of MLB seems to be echoing the "DO NOT WANT" sentiment. The price tag for Feliz is low, and getting lower.

Defender of Noah Lowry.

by Kid Fresh on Dec 28, 2007 3:52 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

For what it's worth
I saw Feliz at Neiman Marcus at Stanford last Saturday. Hmmm....
I did MY job.

by MeSoKrabby on Dec 28, 2007 3:55 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Re: For what it's worth
I saw Jesus at McDonalds...
 

by zenbitz on Dec 29, 2007 9:50 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: For what it's worth
No, that was Matty.
The SF Giants: we're not much, but you should check out our team in Augusta!

by Lyle on Dec 29, 2007 11:03 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I saw Jesus kissing Santa Claus
Smile for Lyle.

Lyle, sometimes we're just too old to get our meaning across. Even when we lay down a bunt.

by Moggeee on Dec 31, 2007 2:06 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: I saw Jesus kissing Santa Claus
Thanks goodness somebody got it; I began to think no one remembered the brothers.
The SF Giants: we're not much, but you should check out our team in Augusta!

by Lyle on Jan 2, 2008 7:49 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: I saw Jesus kissing Santa Claus
Those Alou jokes come up pretty often here, really.
Steve Kline: How okay is he, really? I would say he is pretty okay.

by groug on Jan 2, 2008 12:07 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: For what it's worth
was he in the french toast?

by slojoe on Dec 30, 2007 2:59 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

True Believers say
He most certainly WAS in the toast. And the next thing you know, there he was, on the Mount.

by Moggeee on Dec 31, 2007 2:10 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: True Believers say
oh, that Jesus..probably wouldnt make news if you saw his face in a piece of french toast...

by slojoe on Jan 2, 2008 4:32 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Fleas
i couldnt agree more.  i dont care if it costs them 7 games and it means ray durham at 2nd all year with aurilia/frandsen at third.  no more pedro!  nothing would make me happier than to see him in a dodger uniform swinging at zito first pitch curves in the dirt that no one else would dream of swinging at

by sam23 on Dec 28, 2007 4:14 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Re: Fleas
Geez, I'm so sick of reading, hearing, talking about how bad Feliz is with the bat.  He is what he is...a .250-.260 hitter with 20 HR, 80-90 RBI, usually, plus stellar 3B defense.  Who is Sabean going to get to play third?  Nobody is out there who we could reasonably get without trading young pitchers, to which I say NO!!!!
I'd love Rolen, five years ago minus the bad back!!  So suck it up Giants fans.  Resign Pedro for another year (with an option) and maybe he'll surprise and hit .275!!!

by JERSEYGIANT on Dec 28, 2007 4:26 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

He may hit .275...
But his OBP will still only be near .300

The only year in the majors where he hit .275 was 2004.  That year he went .276/.305/.485.  Last year he had an isolated OBP (don't know what the technical stat is for it) of .037.  Even if he hit .275 next year he'd only have a OBP of around .310.  With declining power, even with the addition of a bit more strike zone judgement, he's still a bad hitter.  Yes he hit 20 HRs (22, 20, 22, 20), yes he drove in 80-90 RBIs (84, 81, 98, 72 so he didn't get it last year), but he still sucks with the bat.  As a super sub he's a great player, can hit a bit against the lefties, and playes great defense at 1B/3B, ok defense at SS and LF.

Just looking up something too, the best year he had was 1999, where he only played half a season (102 OPS+).  His next season he was totally average (100 OPS+).  After that it's been a decline of 85, 79, and 81.

Coming to you from the Land of Many Beers

by WalrusMan on Dec 28, 2007 8:33 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

well..
..it all depends on the price.  If he signs some way-below-market deal with incentives and options and such, I can take it.  The team won't be winning the division, and his glove is going to help the young arms on the staff more than his bat is going to hurt an already-lost cause.

If he signs some Rowand-level this-is-the-new-market-rate deal, I'm pissed.  For real money, I want to be entertained.  Otherwise, plug in some cheap chaff and sign another three Villalonas.

by wcw on Dec 28, 2007 4:31 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Hijack!
Not Feliz related, but not new diary worthy either...from Keith Law's chat today:

Mike (Rodeo, Ca): So referring to the Giants, any chance they move Lowry for a 1B or 3B? or even Roberts to the Braves for a Single A prospect

Keith Law: I've talked to a number of teams about Lowry - sounds like no one's very high on him at all. Teams are wary of his health and his K/BB ratio this year is terrifying.

by KCE on Dec 28, 2007 4:55 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Re: Hijack!
How about moving Lowry to 1B or 3B?
Nattowear | comics | Durham? I hardly know 'im!

by Natto on Dec 29, 2007 1:51 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Fleas
No one's brought it up yet, so I will: We get a draft pick if Feliz leaves. The choice, then, is this:

A.) Spend about $1 million for a supplemental rounder who might help us one day when we're good again or at least have trade value.

B.) Sign a moderately useful, but still irritating, third baseman who won't help us win anything meaningful next year.

by Dan from NM on Dec 28, 2007 5:06 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Re: Fleas
I absolutely agree, Dan - I've written about this before, and it clearly seems to me the single consideration that negates all others: if Feliz signs elsewhere, we get the #37 pick in the draft; if we sign him, we don't.

Just a few names in the 37-45 range in recent years: David Wright, Huston Street, Joba Chamberlain, Tom Gorzelanny, Clay Buchholz, Mark Teahen, Jo Jo Reyes, Adam Jones, Gio Gonzalez, Jed Lowrie, Joey Votto, Reid Brignac. Yes, an equal number of picks in that range, if not more, will prove complete busts - so lets say the odds of getting someone really valuable with the #37 pick are around one in three. The choice, then, is this - another year or two of Feliz on a rebuilding team or a one in three chance of drafting one of those guys. Its no contest.

For this reason alone I just don't see how there can be any justification whatsoever for signing Feliz- whatever the number of years, whatever the salary, whatever the short-term alternative or lack thereof.

by FavoriteSpring on Dec 29, 2007 12:46 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Fleas
I'd like to see Frandsen get a shot at 3rd. If they don't re-sign Feliz, I think there's a shot of that happening. Plus, as Dan says, the draft pick alone is worth letting Pedro go. All that said, and as much as I hate watching Feliz hit (it reminds me of watching Gallarraga flailing away in Montreal in the year or two before Don Baylor got a hold of him), I wouldn't be too upset if they signed him back for a year, because I just love watching great fielders at the hot corner. Two years would stink, however.

by BigO on Dec 28, 2007 5:59 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Re: Fleas
i dont see how Frandsen will ever have the bat for 3B...

by slojoe on Dec 30, 2007 3:03 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Fleas
"Brian Sabean has been adamant about not giving Feliz a three-year deal, which, if you want to read between the lines, leaves open the possibility of a two-year deal."

It also leaves the door open for one of those shiny four or five year contracts!

He is Vengeance. He is the Knight. He is Dave Righetti. PRAY TO HIM! / Also, my blog. For writers.

by howtheyscored on Dec 28, 2007 6:05 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Re: Fleas
I don't think i would ever be able to stop laughing if Feliz got a 5 year contract.  That would be so many different kinds of awesome and ridiculous.
Pedro Feliz: Marginally better this year.

by SloIsLonelyForTheOrange on Dec 29, 2007 9:15 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Fleas
As long as it wasn't the Giants doing the signing, I would laugh along with you :-)
My adopted son Matt Downs. Because face it, everybody else was already taken by the time I got here.

by nvsfg on Dec 30, 2007 11:16 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Fleas
I'd take my chances with Morgan Ensberg, the devil I don't know over the one I hate

by Glasscock on Dec 28, 2007 6:23 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Re: Fleas
I don't recall who, but someone did the math and the giants have 1.75 mil left until they hit their self imposed cap (whether that was 90, or 95 mil i do not recall). Unless the team cuts salary through a trade, i would not expect any more signings this off season.

by OmahaGiants on Dec 28, 2007 6:24 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Re: Fleas
The numbers I have figured out are as such

Barry Zito    $14.5
Matt Cain    $700,000
Tim Lincecum    $400,000
Noah Lowry    $2.25
Kevin Correia    $400,000
Steve Kline    $1.75
Jack Taschner     $400,000
Randy Messenger $400,000
Vinnie Chulk       $400,000
Brad Hennessey     $400,000
Tyler Walker    $750,000
Brain Wilson    $400,000

Bengie Molina     $6
Daniel Ortmeier    $400,000
Ray Durham    $7.5
Rich Aurilia    $4.5
Omar Vizquel    $5   
Aaron Rowand     $12
Dave Roberts    $6.5
Randy Winn     $8

Nate Schierholtz$400,000
Rajai Davis     $400,000   
Fred Lewis    $400,000       
Kevin Frandsen     $400,000   
Guillermo Rodriguez$400,000

Barry Bonds    $10.8
Armando Benitez    $1.6
Omar Vizquel    $1
Mike Matheny     $2

2008 Payroll Total
$89.95 million

A few of the $400,000 dollar salaries and the Barry Bonds deferred money might be a off a little but not by much.

The result means that we have little to spend as of now since our budget the past few years has been around $90 million.

by hollywoodlarry on Dec 29, 2007 1:07 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Fleas
Tyler Walker gets almost double what all the Chulk, Messenger, Correia, Hennessey's get?? i thought he was cut, he should be working for the minimum, unless $750,000 is the minimum, then he should be working for less.....

by slojoe on Dec 30, 2007 3:08 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Walker's..
1M option was not excersied by the Giants but they resigned him for 750,000.  I'd say Hennessey gets upwards of that instead of something in the minimum.  He was our closer after all.
Coming to you from the Land of Many Beers

by WalrusMan on Dec 31, 2007 7:24 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Fleas
I think Pedro coming back is just about a forgone conclusion.  I am also very much feeling like the much discussed Druham for Sexson trade is going to happen sometime in January just like the Alfonzo for Finley trade happened in 2006.  Not at all loving it but the following is now what I am expecting our opening day position player roster to be:

Lineup:
Roberts LF
Vizquel SS
Winn RF
Sexson 1B
Rowand CF
Molina C
Feliz 3B
Frandsen 2B

Bench:
Alfonzo C
Aurilia IF
Ortmeier 1B/OF
Davis OF
Lewis OF so Schierholtz doesn't rust on the bench

Minors:
Rodriguez C
Ishikawa 1B
Denker 2B
Velez 2B/OF
Schierholtz OF to play everyday
Bowker OF
Timpner OF

by giantsrainman on Dec 28, 2007 6:31 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Re: Fleas
My crystal ball is also telling me that Seattle is a very likely landing spot for one Barry Lamar Bonds.  This is especially true if the Sexson/Durham trade and the much rumored Bedard/Jones-Clement-Morrow trade indeed do happen.  I could very much see Seattle selling the following position player roster to their fans as the best shot at beating the Angels:

LineUp:
Suzuki CF
Vidro LF/DH
Beltre 3B
Bonds DH/LF
Ibanez 1B
Durham 2B
Johjima C
Balentien RF
Betancourt SS

Bench:
Burke C
Lopez IF
Bloomquist IF/OF
Morse OF
Reed OF  

by giantsrainman on Dec 28, 2007 6:56 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Fleas
are those anything like the much-rumored Cabrera to LAA trades??

by slojoe on Dec 30, 2007 3:10 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Fleas
If Durham goes so Frandsen can play second, my feelings about Feliz at a cheap price to play third switch from negative to I can live with it. I think good fielding is an underrated skill. I also think the ability to move Feliz to the outfield, first or even short for an inning also gives you some flexibility you wouldn't have with some of the other available riff-raff. But I'm fine with waiting a month. If he signs elsewhere, we get a draft pick. If not, Pedro sees there is no action and is happy with whatever two years plus incentives deal he gets offered by Sabean. He's not a great player but he's a class act and there's something to be said for that when so many ballplayers are jerks.

by NearestNorwich on Dec 28, 2007 8:00 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Re: Fleas
I have been saying since the season ended that I didn't care all that much whether Pedro came back -- but that I wouldn't give him a three-year contract unless it was at a huge discount (meaning that it cost no more overall than he should really be paid for two years, making him highly tradable throughout the contract).

by sharksrog on Dec 28, 2007 8:59 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

You got it right
The key is EIGHTH YEAR IN A ROW  And to a lesser extent Winn, Roberts, Molina, Aurelia, Vizquel, Frandsen, Durham and the rest of the wax museuem refugees from Pier 39. Its the same useless cast of uncharismatic collection of cadavers we've been watching for 3 plus years.

I would rather watch a lineup of Ortmeir, Zoo Tiger, Porch Monkey, Charlemagne, and Napoleon Dynamite's uncle (who bears a striking resemblance to Tim Flannery) stink up the joint, than YOUR 2005 SAN FRANCISCO GIANTS - EPISODE IV

Feliz has had 2840 ABs in his career. All the while the image of his imbecilic hacks burned into the screens of new LCDs everywhere. And he has struck out 500 times. Exactly. And that most of us here have seen at least 800 of those strikeouts including the goddamn slow motion replays where Krukow and company use the telestrator to circle the fourth row of the upper deck where strike three actually ends up after bouncing off the dirt...and some idiot chimes in, "at least he didn't get cheated on his swings."

Really. I would rather watch a bum chosen at random from the right field portico hit in that spot than ever watch Feliz swing a bat again.

I mean, really. Can anybody in their right mind willfully want to see this buffoon continue to air condition PacBell Park nightly just like he has for the past 8 years? To the accompaniment of equally useless overpaid chump refugees from San Diego in filched laundry? Just wait and see. Klesko will be back. I wouldnt be surprised to see the return of other note worthies like Sweeney, Greene. Maybe Bochy can coax Sabaen into talking Melvin Nieve, Jody Reed, and Steve Finley to come out of retirement. Then we can listen to Donny and Marie's Greatest Hit during the 7th inning stretch which should be just enough provocation for even the most optimistic of souls to hurl themselves from the upper deck into the bullpen in a suicide dive bombing attack on Steve Kline.

No. If the Giants sign Fleas, I will hunt Sabaen down. And castrate him with a dull knife.

by E Ticket on Dec 28, 2007 10:37 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Strikeouts
Not saying Feliz is a good hitter, but if you are going to rag on his strikeouts, you must realize that Miguel Cabrera has a higher K% than Pedro.  

A much bigger problem, to me, is that he gets into these long streaks where he tries to pull everything and ends up reaching for pitches on the low-outside corner, pulls them and rolls them weakly to SS.  During the brief stretches when he goes with the pitch and tries to drive it up the middle or the RCF, he actually is a pretty darn good hitter.

Again, I wonder if Carney Lansford might be able to help him with this more than Joe Lefebvre, who I'm not sure helped anybody while he was hitting coach.

by DrBGiantsfan on Dec 28, 2007 11:05 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Strikeouts
Please tell me that you are not comparing Miguel Cabrera to Pedro Feliz...

by KCDrummer82 on Dec 29, 2007 12:55 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Strikeouts
Feliz is like a more experienced* Cabrera who plays better defense.**

*Older
**With less patience and power, and who hits for a much lower average.

Southern California: Water thieves and Dodgers fans.

by jasomack on Dec 29, 2007 3:16 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Jesus Christ!
Dude, can you read?  No, I'm not comparing Feliz to Miguel Cabrera!  Just pointing out that K's are not Pedro's biggest problem.  If Cabrera can maintain a .320 BA with a higher K rate than Pedro, then Pedro's .240 BA means his problem is in his non-K outs.  If Pedro would just stop trying to pull pitches on the low-outside corner and instead try to drive them up the middle, I'd be happy for him to swing away to his heart's content.

by DrBGiantsfan on Dec 29, 2007 8:11 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Well, Cabrera has better
walk rates, more power, etc.

The K's would not matter if Feliz walked more, hit the ball harder. Unfortunately, he doesn't.

by rfloh on Dec 29, 2007 9:47 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Well, Cabrera has better
Did I say anything about Cabrera NOT being better?  For crying out loud, people, please read what is written before you go popping off with some dumbass response.  That's the whole point!  Cabrera is a much better hitter than Feliz and he strikes out more!  Conclusion:  Pedro's biggest problem is not his K%, it's what he does with balls in play that's the problem.

by DrBGiantsfan on Dec 29, 2007 11:28 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

His balls in play isn't that big a problem
Pedro's career on contact slugging from my rough calculation just now is .527, which I think I read is something around league average. Not great for a 3B obviously, but not bad.

His contact rate is also 82%, which isn't awful really, if seen in a vacuum.

No, Pedro's biggest problem is what it always has been, his walk rate. A 5% walk rate is putrid, and when you add it to his other around averagish numbers, it makes him a crappy offensive ballplayer.

by awesomer on Dec 29, 2007 12:05 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I know that you are not comparing the 2
I'm saying that the Ks ARE a problem, because, unlike other hitter who K a lot, Pedro does NOT walk, does not hit the ball all that hard, isn't a great baserunner.

K's are not a problem, if a player makes up for them by doing other things well. Feliz doesn't.

by rfloh on Dec 29, 2007 11:33 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

That Is Not A Correct Way Of Looking At It
K's are K's, outs are outs.  K's were no more of a problem for Feliz than they were for Cabrera, and they were not the main reason Feliz sucked.  It's what he did with balls in play that made the difference.  Once again, Cabrera is a much better hitter than Feliz, although in light of the defensive stats that came to light farther down the diary, Cabrera may not be that much better as an overall player.

by DrBGiantsfan on Dec 30, 2007 8:18 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: I know that you are not comparing the 2
I'm of the belief that if Feliz struck out MORE, he might be a better over-all hitter.  It would mean that his was getting deeper into counts.

His main problem is that makes too much bad contact.  If he stuck out 50 times more a year it would mean that he was seeing more pitches as a whole and would probably result in more walks and a higher BA.   As he is now, he gets himself out too often.  

by chefasaurus on Dec 30, 2007 11:42 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: I know that you are not comparing the 2
Again, I think this is something that would be reflected a lot better in walks than in k's. If Feliz struck out more, he might be seeing as few as 4 pitches an at bat because he's just doing that badly. If he saw more pitches, though, it would undoubtedly translate as more walks.
He is Vengeance. He is the Knight. He is Dave Righetti. PRAY TO HIM! / Also, my blog. For writers.

by howtheyscored on Dec 30, 2007 12:07 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Strikeouts
i think that defensive rating post on Grant's section had Feliz at +28 and Cabrera at -28....
im not for re-signing Feliz but the fat tub of goo would have to make up 56 runs with his bat??

by slojoe on Dec 30, 2007 3:17 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Fleas
No I agree. Someone else can reap the benefits of his amazing defense, because I'm done with him.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.

by jponry on Dec 29, 2007 2:14 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

This is only partially in jest

5 Stages of Feliz
  1. Denial: that anyone can have that bad plate disipline... he'll break out any day.
  2. Anger: I cannot believe we still have that jerk at 3B  >:(
  3. Bargaining: So, we will trade you Feliz and Lowry for nothing, just to get rid of Feliz
  4. Depression: I cannot believe we still have that jerk at 3B :{
  5. Acceptance:  Well his defense really is quite good.  Maybe he isn't the worst problem on the team.
After many years of bouncing around between steps 2, 3, and 4, I think I have finally accepted him.

PS Can anyone believe this dog of a roster currently has a $90M payroll??   And Sabean is an average GM?

by zenbitz on Dec 29, 2007 9:58 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

Re: Fleas
I've long defended Pedro against those on these boards who can only see his negatives, but I wouldn't be happy to see Pedro resigned to the Giants. Pedro is fine as an addition to the Giants' defense and adding power to the lower third of the lineup. He is utterly misplaced as number 4 or 5 hitter. The Giants need that from the black holes that are now at first and third. I'd much rather go after a trade for someone like Scott Rolen, assuming the Cards really want to trade him at a less than premium price, who can not only play the position well, but who can also hit fifth without embarrassing himself. The much discussed Edwin Encarnacion would fit the bill also, but I'm afraid he would cost too much. Perhaps, I overstate the "play the position well" part in Encarnacion's case, but the priority must be to find a number 4 or 5 hitter from that position. Something Pedro can't do.

by Sayhey on Dec 29, 2007 10:13 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

Re: Fleas
I'm glad to see that you've come over to my side, SayHey, after our discussions last winter about Feliz's value relative to Hennessey's. Not that Brad was brilliant, but he was a useful and inexpensive player for us last year.
The SF Giants: we're not much, but you should check out our team in Augusta!

by Lyle on Dec 29, 2007 11:14 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Fleas
I think if you look back at those discussions you will see my estimation of Pedro hasn't change, but the team has. He doesn't fit into what the team needs anymore even if he was, as I argued, acceptable in his role in the past. If the Giants sign him, the best they could hope for is to bat him sixth and have Molina as their fifth place hitter. If they don't sign an adequate clean up bat, then we are talking about Molina as the fourth place hitter and either flopping Rowand to fifth and batting Winn third and having a lineup that looks to be dead last in hitting. Everyone of those guys is out of place for where they should be expected to bat given their talents. That is a recipe for disaster.

I'd much rather trade for a few legit bats for short term stop gap deals at first and third, and use any surplus in pitching to acquire real future position talent when other teams are desperate for the pitching. Concretely, I think they should pursue a trade for Rolen that doesn't involve blue chip pitching prospects, and a salary dump trade of Durham for Sexson.

If those trades can't be had for a reasonable cost in players, or a comparable deal, then I'd rather sit on trades up until the trade deadline. Under the last scenario, a signing of Feliz to a one year deal wouldn't be the worst thing they could do, it just doesn't really help turn a truly horrendous lineup into anything but possibly a tiny bit less horrendous.

by Sayhey on Dec 29, 2007 5:40 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Fleas
I checked, and they don't have Frontline for Giants. We might just be stuck with fleas.
He is Vengeance. He is the Knight. He is Dave Righetti. PRAY TO HIM! / Also, my blog. For writers.

by howtheyscored on Dec 29, 2007 11:07 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

Re: Fleas
Wow, according to that list Feliz is the single most valuable defensive player in MLB!!!!!11  How could they not sign him?  He's due for a breakout season OBP-wise!

by decidenator on Dec 29, 2007 11:36 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

Cabrera vs Feliz
Wow, the difference between Pedro and Cabrera defensively is 56 runs?  You know, Pedro might actually be a better player than Miguel Cabrera if they both play 3B!

by DrBGiantsfan on Dec 29, 2007 11:46 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Aaaaaaand
That's how you know it's a crock.
He is Vengeance. He is the Knight. He is Dave Righetti. PRAY TO HIM! / Also, my blog. For writers.

by howtheyscored on Dec 29, 2007 11:53 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Noooo......
I don't know that. Lets's see you prove it to be a crock.

by DrBGiantsfan on Dec 29, 2007 12:00 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Noooo......
Feliz Batting Runs Above Average: -14
Cabrera: 47

Difference of 61 runs. Obviously average is probably set different for both metrics and don't mesh very well, but please don't go saying how Feliz could be better than Cabrera overall, UZR obviously has some problems as well (Ichiro third worst CF in baseball ORLY? Rolen still 4th most valuable defensively in baseball)

by awesomer on Dec 29, 2007 12:24 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Good Answer
Cabrera is the better overall player, but I bet it's a lot closer than most people think.

by DrBGiantsfan on Dec 29, 2007 3:10 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Actually,
average is set "equal" for both, you CAN add both.

Also, it's not just UZR that thinks Feliz is great; plus minus from John Dewan has Feliz as the best 3b from 2005-2007. RZR and Zone Rating both had Feliz as great too last year, RZR had him at 28 runs above average, Zone Rating at 25 runs above average.

RZR had Miguel Cabrera at 12 runs below average, Zone Rating at 18 runs below average.

So, while the gap between the 2 varies somewhat depending according to what Metric you want to use, it is pretty significant: RZR has Feliz better by 40 runs, Zone Rating has Feliz better by  43 runs.

As for Rolen, RZR had him at 14 runs above average, Zone Rating at 17 runs above average, so YES, Rolen still great. The problem with Rolen is NOT his defense. It's his hitting.

The issue that ALL the metrics, not just UZR, but also RZR, ZR, plus minus have is with players who make a lot of out of zone plays: Ichiro!, Andruw, David Wright, and conversely those who don't make a lot of OOZ plays.

UZR does NOT rate highly guys who make a lot of OOZ plays, guys like Ichiro!, Andruw, David Wright; thus they do badly.

Conversely RZR DOES rate highly guys who make a lot of OOZ plays, thus guys like Ichiro!, Andruw, David Wright do well in it.

by rfloh on Dec 29, 2007 11:48 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Noooo......
I like stats and all, but defensive stats are tenuous to begin with and if a defensive statistic is telling me that the overall difference between Pedro Feliz and Miguel Cabrera at 3b is a mere 5 runs a season in favor of Cabrera (taking into account awesomers response on offensive contribution, 61-56=5), then it's going to have a MUCH more difficult time convincing me that it's a useful statistic.

I'm using a heaping helping of intuitive logic here, but Pedro Feliz's defense does not make him nearly as valuable as Miguel Cabrera. If that were true we would have had the equivalent of Bonds and Cabrera on the same team last year. Which, frankly, wouldn't have sucked. Still might not have been great, but wouldn't have sucked.

He is Vengeance. He is the Knight. He is Dave Righetti. PRAY TO HIM! / Also, my blog. For writers.

by howtheyscored on Dec 29, 2007 12:38 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Noooo......

I admit it seems wrong - and that is a good reason to suspect it.  But you can't question the results and call the stat bogus.  You actually have to question the methodology in detail.

All these PBP defensive stats make some assumptions.
Basically, they try to measure how many hits and extra bases the player prevents - relative to some average fielder.  These extra hits and bases can be translated into runs pretty easily.

by zenbitz on Dec 29, 2007 2:40 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Noooo......
I was being a little harsh and narrow, but the idea that Feliz and Cabrera could be interchangeable parts was just too flabbergasting for my baseball watching brain.

Just think: If it's true and we had traded Lincecum & Co. for Cabrera... we would have essentially just been a Lincecum&Co.less team with a Feliz alternative...

But I can see where the sense is in the evaluation. I just can't get myself to agree with it in almost any way.

He is Vengeance. He is the Knight. He is Dave Righetti. PRAY TO HIM! / Also, my blog. For writers.

by howtheyscored on Dec 29, 2007 4:33 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Wouldn't Have Sucked?
It might not have sucked offensively, but I saw some games last year where Cabrera just stood there and watched balls go by that would have been sure outs for Pedro.  I'm also not at all convinced that Barry was a net positive last year if you factor in D. He was pretty much of a statue out there by the end of the season.

by DrBGiantsfan on Dec 29, 2007 3:13 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Wouldn't Have Sucked?
Well by "sucked" I meant "shit-eating bad" and by "not great" I meant "regular crappy," so we might not be so far off of each other after all.

Just think of that team, though: Bonds, Cabrera, Klesko, Aurilia, Molina... it would have been the slowest team ever!

He is Vengeance. He is the Knight. He is Dave Righetti. PRAY TO HIM! / Also, my blog. For writers.

by howtheyscored on Dec 29, 2007 4:37 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Barry was a good enough hitter that
he was worth that $20M.

Offensively, using either Batting Runs or Batting Runs above average, he was worth about 40-50 runs above average.

Defensively, about 20 runs below average.

That is still 20-30 runs ABOVE average.

by rfloh on Dec 29, 2007 11:51 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Fleas
I think the problem with that fielding metric (and a lot of the others)  is that it is not distinguishing between RUNS and RUNNERS.  Huge difference.  If Feliz is 28+ that to me says he allows 28 less baserunners.  Not necessarily 28 less RUNS, since those require four total bases.  I see 28 Baserunners as 7 total runs, but it can be a huge variety of different real numbers.  But 28 RUNS seems flawed.

So simply subtracting UZR from BtRuns doesn't really illustrate the disparity between Cabrera and Feliz.  

by chefasaurus on Dec 30, 2007 12:24 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Fleas
If that's true (and I trust you that it is), it makes a HUGE difference in this conversation, and is an extremely valuable contribution to the debate.
He is Vengeance. He is the Knight. He is Dave Righetti. PRAY TO HIM! / Also, my blog. For writers.

by howtheyscored on Dec 30, 2007 12:39 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Fleas
It ain't true.  He is just guessing and guessing wrongly.  These defensive matrics use a formula to estimate runs saved on defense just like offensive matrics use a formula to estimate runs produced on offense.  This ain't just the baserunners saved anymore the the offensive matrics are just the baserunners produced.

by giantsrainman on Dec 30, 2007 1:05 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

The method by which
all this metrics are converted from plays into runs, whether by the inventor himself, as in UZR or SFR by Dan Fox of Baseball Prospectus, or by others, as in RZR and Zone Rating, is basically the linear weights method; which is also the method that offensive runs estimators like BtRuns, BaseRuns or Batting runs above average use.

Basically, a single is assigned a certain run value, a double is assigned a certain run value, an out is assigned a certain run value, a walk is assigned a certain run value etc. These run values are based both on real world results and simulations using stats of real players. They aren't arbitrarily assigned.

by rfloh on Dec 30, 2007 1:27 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

They're in runs
Just read the comments in the link. Or you can read the methodology that MGL has outlined on BBTF.

The numbers that MGL releases are in runs relative to average, both in per 150 games, and in total. He converts them from plays into runs before releasing them.

Plus minus by Dewan is in plays. However turning 28 plays into just 7 runs is a gross underestimation. One play in the plus minus system is worth about 0.7-0.8 runs, not 0.25 runs.

The RZR and Zone Rating numbers are converted from plays into runs using linear weights; which is what BtRuns does.

by rfloh on Dec 30, 2007 1:17 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: They're in runs
I just don't see how that can possibly add up to 28 'runs' over the course of a season.  That's 112 Total Bases over the course over 150 games.  That's a LOT of doubles and single saved (.75 bases a game).  Especially considering Pedro only had 406 total chances (PO+A).

I respect the thought process and research put into building these field metrics, but this one just does not match common sense.  It's saying that Feliz essentially saved 112 Total Bases over average in about 400 attempts.  Or, put another way, every average 3B is giving up a 3/4 of a base a game.   Or Cabrera gives up more than one runner a game more that Feliz. Do you really believe that?  

by chefasaurus on Dec 30, 2007 4:28 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Believer
I actually believe that.  Cabrera is a terrible fielder and I think we've all been underestimating that.

by DrBGiantsfan on Dec 30, 2007 4:47 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Believer
I totally agree that Cabrera is a horrible fielder.  I think the rate of how much it hurts the team is what is what is being questioned, not the disparity between the two.  I completely believe Feliz is as good as Cabrera is bad.  I just don't buy that the differential comes close the the offensive differential.  

Just on chances, Feliz 'got to' 17 more balls that Miguel (based on PO/A/E) and Petey made 29 more outs from 3B.  But I don't see how those extra 29 outs that Feliz recorded (even with the 12 errors more Cabrera commited for a total of 42 extra runners in theory) can equal 29 runs over the course of a year.  That's basically saying that 70% of runners that Cabrera allowed became runs.  That's where I have an issue.  In the Runs calculation.

by chefasaurus on Dec 30, 2007 6:28 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

29 Outs
That's just the thing.  I believe what they are saying is that Happy Pete made a lot more than 29 extra outs from 3B and when you put the actual number into their formula, it means that he saved 28 more runs on the season than the average third baseman and 56 more than Cabrera.

by DrBGiantsfan on Dec 30, 2007 7:17 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: 29 Outs
I see what you're saying.  I'm sure he made much more than 29 extra outs.  I'm just concerned about the conversion of runners to runs scored.  How many outs/runners do you equal to a run?  And how do you come up with that number?  This is my question with some of the linear measurements and adjustments on these metrics.

by chefasaurus on Dec 30, 2007 10:18 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

RZR from the Hardball Times
has Feliz making 219 plays out of 293 plays on balls hit into the 3b zone. Additionally, he also made 62 out of zone plays. This is in 2007.

It had Miguel Cabrera making 195 out of 311 plays. 50 out of zone plays.

These numbers are based on actual observation, ie people watching the game.

"How many outs/runners do you equal to a run?  And how do you come up with that number?  This is my question with some of the linear measurements and adjustments on these metrics."

The conversions that are done are based on actual game data, ie they aren't arbitrarily assigned, as in a stat like the original version of Runs Created.

Also, the conversions that are used for the defensive data are the same as the conversions that are used for the offensive data. The principles are the same.

If Barry Bonds at his best can be 125 runs above average offensively, if ARod can be 70 runs above avearage offensively at his best, there is no reason why Pedro Feliz can't be 20-30 runs above average defensively.

Why is it difficult to believe that great defense actually makes a difference, and that defense actually matters?

If you are a subscriber to Baseball Prospectus, Dan Fox explains his SFR here. SFR unlike UZR / RZR / ZR / PMR is not a zonal based system. It attempts to do what the zonal systems do without the cost. The zonal systems can only be used for games in which there is zone data: which means they can't be used for the minors, for games in the not too distant past.

The method by which people have converted the raw data from Zone Rating, RZR, PMR into runs is explained and used by Chris Dial here.
Others have then used it to convert this year's data.

MGL explains his UZR here.

by rfloh on Dec 30, 2007 10:56 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: RZR from the Hardball Times
sweet. thanks for the links.

by chefasaurus on Dec 31, 2007 8:10 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Believer
At the same time, something to remember (and MGL himself would tell you to keep this in mind) is that even an entire season's defensive data is considered to be a small sample size. There can be a lot of fluctuation on a year to year basis. Cabrera is probably not a good (or even an average) defensive 3B, but -28 (or whatever it is) is also probably not his true defensive talent level. I'm not sure how poor his pre-2007 defensive statistics were.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.

by jponry on Dec 30, 2007 6:44 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Well, yes,
I am aware of sample size issues. Upthread, you will see that I posted data for Feliz for multiple years and also for multiple metrics.

As for Cabrera, his stats haven't always been this bad. That really is the hope for him and the Tigers. That, now that he is out of Florida and on a real team, he'll play better.

by rfloh on Dec 30, 2007 10:27 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Runs vs Baserunners
Could be wrong, because the heading in the link does not go into detail, but I believe the +28 does refer to runs allowed.  Since this cannot be ascertained directly, it is calculated from other defensive measures like plays made vs potential plays or something like that. There does seem to be quite a bit of variation is Runs Allowed between different systems, so they are probably all flawed.

I watched a lot of games last year, and I would estimate that in at least 75% of the games, Pedro would make at least one defensive play that, IMO, an average third baseman would not make.  Let's say that a play like that saved a run about 1/3 of the time.  That would mean that Pedro saved a run over and above an average third baseman in 40 games.  If you assume he saves a run 1/4 of the time he makes a good play, then it would be that would be 29 games where he saved a run.

I don't know if any of those assumptions are accurate, but at least the number +28 jibes intuitively with what I observed on the field as a fan.

It's also not that hard for me to believe that Cabrera was as bad a fielder as Pedro was good.  Not only does Cabrera not possess Pedro's defensive tools, but he also doesn't try very hard.  We're all so sick of Pedro's hacking that we are ready to accept almost anything else.  Had we traded for Miguel Cabrera, our frustration with Pedro's hacking may have just been transferred to Cabrera's terrible D.

by DrBGiantsfan on Dec 30, 2007 1:20 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Runs vs Baserunners
Ah, well paint my face red, everybody else who responded to this.
He is Vengeance. He is the Knight. He is Dave Righetti. PRAY TO HIM! / Also, my blog. For writers.

by howtheyscored on Dec 30, 2007 2:13 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Fleas
Dear Giants:

Would it kill you guys to take a flier on Dallas McPherson?  He's 5 years younger than Feliz and has what could turn out to be a very good bat.  Yeah, he's not great defensively, but you could move him to 1B if he sucks and 3B.  McPherson is already a better offensive player than what the Giants hope to trot out at 3B and 1B right now -- and could prove to be much better.

But if you must bring Feliz back -- and that looks like almost a certainty right now -- do not sign him for more than 1 yr/$4M.  Do not give him a 2 year deal unless it looks like 2/$6M (with no option/buyout) so you can cut him loose when he posts a .234/.269/.352 line at 2B this year.

by Lincecum Cain Then Pray For Rain on Dec 29, 2007 4:27 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Re: Fleas
Why would Feliz sign for 1 year at $4M or 2 years at $6M? Brandon Inge gets about $6M a years and Pedro Feliz is better than Inge. The Giants need to sign Felix for 3 years, $18.7M.

God bless Pedro Feliz.

by GaryEdmundCarter on Dec 29, 2007 5:04 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Fleas
I disagree both as emphatically and as respectfully as I possibly can. For the sake of sacrificing neither one, I can say no more than that.
He is Vengeance. He is the Knight. He is Dave Righetti. PRAY TO HIM! / Also, my blog. For writers.

by howtheyscored on Dec 29, 2007 5:22 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Fleas
Concur.  Now I will agree that Inge and Feliz are relatively comparable players -- good offense, offensively challenged and making similar money (approx. $5 million each last year).  

But just because Detroit overpaid for Inge (who had a better offensive track record than Feliz through 2006) doesn't mean that the Giants should do the same for Pedro.  By that same logic should Detroit have offered $126 million for Dontrelle Willis just because we overpaid for Zito?

There is no way I would ever offer Feliz a three year deal, no matter what salary was written into the contract.  I really don't want to tie up a roster spot for Feliz for any longer, but might reluctantly agree to an inexpensive two year deal if it was clear that Feliz would start and then play a utility role (ala Aurilia) once the Giants found a real 3B.  One year, though, would be far preferable IMO.

by Lincecum Cain Then Pray For Rain on Dec 29, 2007 9:54 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

McPherson
I wouldn't give Dallas McPherson anything more than a minor league deal.  If he's smart, he will take a look at the Giants 3B situation and see that if he's healthy and has a good spring training, he has an excellent chance of making the 25man out of ST.  If he thinks he has earned more than that with his endless injuries, see ya later.

by DrBGiantsfan on Dec 29, 2007 10:46 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: McPherson
If the Giants can sign McPherson to an NRI, then that's a nice little pickup.  I agree entirely that he (or Ensberg or Branyan or whichever non-Feliz option the Giants bring in) should embrace the opportunity to re-establish himself and seize the starting 3B job.  

by Lincecum Cain Then Pray For Rain on Dec 30, 2007 1:21 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

We can't take it anymore
Or, perhaps, because of a continuing trend in a downward-spiraling career, cause legions of local hearts to seize up in unison.

by Moggeee on Dec 31, 2007 2:26 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: McPherson
I'd agree with a minor league deal or a NRST invite for McPherson. His back problems are severe enough that he could already be in physical decline (you don't have to be over 30 for that to happen, heck Marcus Sanders appears to be physically done at 21).

The problem with taking a flier on Dallas is that I don't think a flier is being offered. Boras no doubt sees this as the best, if not the only opportunity he's ever going to have to be on the open market and is looking for some guaranteed $$$ and quite possibly multiple years. I think you'd have to be crazy to offer that, but surely that's what Boras is holding out for at this point and will probably continue to do so until ST.

That would be my interpretation of the "heading in opposite directions" quote that came out of the front office on this topic.

My boy ain't fat, he's just big boned. Big bat, too.

by Roger on Dec 31, 2007 1:34 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Fleas
Jane you ignorant slut.

You do realize that the first year Pedro plays outside of San Francisco will be the year he finally lays off the breaking ball in the dirt & starts slapping the ball the other way every now & again.  He'll hit .320 (OBP of .321), hit 35 doubles, 30 hrs, knockin about 120 and every Giant fan with a heart problem will pass.  I'm all for putting off that day for as long as possible.  I care about the well-being of others.  You obviously don't.

sorry, sarcasm just went off the charts today.

Brian Sabean's favorite song: "Centerfield" - John Fogerty

by ResDog on Dec 29, 2007 7:15 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Snarkasm
Any time you talk at length about Feliz, ResDog, you can call me Mr. Blue.

by Moggeee on Dec 31, 2007 2:21 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Fleas
I absolutely do not want Feliz back. I used to love the guy. I have an old ticket stub that has written on the back, "Pedro Feliz - 1st Major League hit". I hoped it would be a meaningful memento, but it is just and old ticket stub. He has not developed as a major league hitter, and it's hopeless to think he will at this stage in his career.

I don't care about his defense either, and I love good defense. I just believe that a good defensive third baseman doesn't get you that much unless he's a good hitter on top of it. There just aren't that many chances at the position. There are reasons why teams are built with good defense up the middle and power at the corners. Since Mays' Field more or less dictates playing a CFer in right because of the extra ground to cover, it is absolutely necessary that 3b not be given to a guy with a good glove and a weenie bat.

by marklar on Dec 31, 2007 12:10 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

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