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Mock Roster Proposal

Now that Aaron Rowand is a Giant, here are some other moves to make:

Tim Lincecum for Alex Rios

then

Matt Cain for Melky Cabrera

then

Noah Lowry/Jonathan Sanchez for Coco Crisp

then

sign Mike Cameron to a 3-year/$40M deal.

then

sign Corey Patterson to a 3-year/$30M deal

The result would be this lineup:

Dave Roberts - CF/1B
Melky Cabrera - CF/2B
Alex Rios - CF/RF
Aaron Rowand - CF to rule them all
Randy Winn - CF/3B
Mike Cameron - CF/C
Coco Crisp - CF/SS
Corey Patterson - CF/LF

IT WOULD BE A LINEUP OF CENTER FIELDERS!!!!!!!!!! AWESOME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Two things would make the Aaron Rowand signing okay:

  1. His power doesn't drop back to the 12-homer Rowand of 2005 or 2006.
  2. The Giants now try and move Randy Winn in a deal that helps solve the Giants' corner infielder problem.
The first point scares the hell out of me. In fact, I'm going to just pretend that Rowand was on a humanitarian mission for those two seasons. And the second point is pretty danged unlikely.

Meet the new Sabean, same as the old Sabean.

0 recs | Comment 208 comments

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Re: Mock Roster Proposal
Terrible. A bad day at work gets even worse.

by Dan from NM on Dec 12, 2007 1:37 PM PST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

YESSS ANOTHER CF!!
Take THAT, Ned Colletti!
Nattowear | comics | Durham? I hardly know 'im!

by Natto on Dec 12, 2007 1:37 PM PST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Mock Roster Proposal
Speed and defense.  Speed and defense.

by ResDog on Dec 12, 2007 1:37 PM PST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Mock Roster Proposal
LOL, I am laughing hysterically at this signing. I knew it would happen when I heard that we were having a serious go at him. LOL everybody at work is looking at me. LOL
Angel Joseph is just that a guardian angel.

by gianator on Dec 12, 2007 1:38 PM PST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Mock Roster Proposal
And they'd still have Rajai as the 9th CF. Don't' forget the importance of depth.

by mxmob33 on Dec 12, 2007 1:39 PM PST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Mock Roster Proposal
We need that 9th CF to DH in interleague games.

by Scottsdale on Dec 12, 2007 1:46 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Mock Roster Proposal
And don't forget those darned double-headers...
If I owned this place and Hell, I'd rent this out and live in Hell...

by ilselu1 on Dec 12, 2007 2:01 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Adopted!
I'd just like to repeat that I've adopted our newest center fielder. Let's hope he works out better than the previous adoptee (Todd Linden).

At least he'll be fun to watch... at least he'll be fun to watch... try to breathe... sigh...

Proud member of the Adopt-a-Giant program (Aaron Rowand)

by antinous on Dec 12, 2007 1:39 PM PST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Adopted!
I don't understand this whole adoption thing. Is it firstys, or is there a draft or a waiver claim? Do you have sign papers?

If it's firstys, I adopt our 1B of the future, our 2008 #5 pick.

Uribe to Thompson to Clark: Don't tinker ever with chance

by tellusfrank on Dec 12, 2007 10:48 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Adopted!
It is firsties, but the player/personnel has to at least be drafted/signed/hired before the sweepstakes start. Then you make it official by going to the McWiki and entering it according to form.

Your general responsibilities as adopter are defending your adoptee when they start to get canned on. Mayor of 311 was Sabean's adopter (since given him up, I believe). He had the hardest job.

Dave Righetti: You Know You Want It. / Also, my blog. For writers.

by howtheyscored on Dec 12, 2007 11:20 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Mock Roster Proposal
I was not going to have drinks at the pub tonight.  After this news, I am.

Real Men of Genius -- Here's to you, Mr. Multiple-Center-Fielder-Signing-General-Manaaaaager!

by Skaldheim on Dec 12, 2007 1:39 PM PST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Mock Roster Proposal
Now THAT is funny.
Lon Simmons' adopted dad.

by Kitspool on Dec 12, 2007 1:44 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Mock Roster Proposal
I am seriously considering taking up alcoholism until Sabean gets canned.

by wcw on Dec 12, 2007 1:47 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Mock Roster Proposal
done and done. and i mean done.
Dodgers fans eat their young.

by redhornet78 on Dec 12, 2007 2:54 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

feel good hit of next summer....
nicotine valium vicodin marijuana extasy and alcohol
"cynical yet whimsical giants related signature"

by The Gene Hackman on Dec 12, 2007 11:00 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Mock Roster Proposal
I've decided to take my feelings, bury them deep inside and never speak of them again.

by Dan from NM on Dec 12, 2007 1:40 PM PST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Mock Roster Proposal
Grant, the only thing with that is that Corey Patterson cannot play a good LF.  Lets trade Bumgarner and some of the great looking youngins to the dodgers for Pierre.

by Big Daddy J on Dec 12, 2007 1:41 PM PST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Mock Roster Proposal
How about Bumgarner, Frandsen, Velez & Ort?

by Scottsdale on Dec 12, 2007 1:50 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Mock Roster Proposal
Bring back D-Lew!!!
Like a lesbian couple that's just a little too angry, I'm still waiting for my chance at adoption.

by dangjackson on Dec 12, 2007 1:43 PM PST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Mock Roster Proposal
Oh, you know we're not going move Winn. Instead we're going to trade off as many of our not-bad young outfielders as possible. For veteran relievers.

by Evan on Dec 12, 2007 1:45 PM PST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Mock Roster Proposal
D-Lew is too young--How bout Dave Henderson

by Big Daddy J on Dec 12, 2007 1:45 PM PST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Mock Roster Proposal
HOW COULD THAT LINEUP LOSE???
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.

by jponry on Dec 12, 2007 1:45 PM PST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Mock Roster Proposal
Official Song of the 2008 Giants: John Fogerty's "Centerfield" (to be played every half-inning at the Big Phone).
Lon Simmons' adopted dad.

by Kitspool on Dec 12, 2007 1:45 PM PST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Mock Roster Proposal
I worked for the Padres this last year. And that's actually the song they play for 2 hours up until the game. I want to die just thinking of it.

by MikeyJ on Dec 12, 2007 2:14 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I'm okay with it.
If you're going to have depth in a position at outfield, it's better to have it in CF.  Because at least you can move those players to left or right without a dropoff in defense.  It seems that true corner outfielders never make really good center fielders.  I've heard that Dave Roberts is actually more comfortable at left than he is at center.

Also, I think that this signing makes it very obvious that Winn, Roberts, or Lewis are likely candidates to be packaged away in another deal.  I'd be VERY surprised (even taking into account Sabean's track record) that we're going to start the season with this many outfielders.

The other pros to this trade....

We didn't have to trade Lincecum or Cain to get him.

It probably also means that Matsui is off the table.  I thought that was a bad idea to take him on.

by Sigualicious on Dec 12, 2007 1:45 PM PST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: I'm okay with it.
Hey, maybe Matsui can still play at first.
Nattowear | comics | Durham? I hardly know 'im!

by Natto on Dec 12, 2007 1:50 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: I'm okay with it.
No, I believe Roberts is now the 1b

by allfrank on Dec 12, 2007 4:18 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

The reverse is also true
It seems that CF's never make it to be a good hitting corner outfielder (unless your name is Sizemore)

by awesomer on Dec 12, 2007 1:51 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: The reverse is also true
Ellis Burks?
McCovey Chronicles was better when mine was the lowest IQ on the board.

by Goofus on Dec 12, 2007 8:09 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: I'm okay with it.
Yes, I see it that way too.  This is the least disastrous of the ideas that Brian's been cooking up.

by achiappanza on Dec 12, 2007 2:59 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: I'm okay with it.
Doesn't Rowand make more sense in left field?
lincecum, cain, lowry, sanchez for jeff kent

by lincysgiants on Dec 12, 2007 3:55 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: I'm okay with it.
Rowand has a good arm so he makes the most sense in center or right field.  The throw from left to third is short which is why the bad arms go there.

by Sigualicious on Dec 12, 2007 4:12 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: I'm okay with it.
Less disastrous than 4 yrs of Fukudome?

by allfrank on Dec 12, 2007 4:19 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Absolutely yes
Fukudome is a left handed hitter who has only played in Japan and is slightly older (though admittedly not by much).  We all know that Japanese power hitters drop off once they come to the MLB and the fact that he's also a lefty would make him pretty much a doubles only guy.  Furthermore, I'm pretty sure that Rowand is probably a better fielder.

The only difference is we gave Rowand one more year.  The dollar per year is the same.

by Sigualicious on Dec 12, 2007 4:42 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Absolutely yes
Yes to the above, and of course to have gotten Fukudome, Sabean would likely have had to out-bid the Cubs, not just match it.

by achiappanza on Dec 12, 2007 5:59 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Absolutely yes
But we wouldn't be losing a draft pick if we had signed Fukudome, if I'm not mistaken.
McCovey Chronicles was better when mine was the lowest IQ on the board.

by Goofus on Dec 12, 2007 8:10 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Absolutely yes
We didn't lose our 5th overall pick for this one.

by Sigualicious on Dec 12, 2007 9:49 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Mock Roster Proposal
Sabean is an idiot, plain and simple and thats being kind. Unless there is a trade on hand to trade either Winn or Roberts this makes absolutely no sense at all. Here comes another Contract albatross around the Giants necks. Unbelieveable!!! Once again Sabean outbids himself. After all these years apprently thats the only thing Sabean excels in...Pitiful
"Buy High-Sell Low"--The Brian Sabean Method Of Trading

by Mordy From Monsey on Dec 12, 2007 1:46 PM PST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Mock Roster Proposal
Even *if* he trades both Winn and Roberts, this is still a bad deal.  Winn, for all his flaws, is good enough to be a below-market player.  Roberts is basically the same bat as Rowand (assuming last year was Rowand's career year, and he rounds back into previous form) with worse defense.

So, this would be trading a market-value CF platoon (Roberts is a overpriced) *and* two draft picks for an above-market CF with great defense.

Idiot.

by wcw on Dec 12, 2007 1:50 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Mock Roster Proposal
Rowand is a better defensive outfielder than Roberts.  Especially at center.

by Sigualicious on Dec 12, 2007 2:07 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: That's what he said
Ahh.  So he did.  You'll have to forgive me, I was practicing responding to posts in a mirror.

by Sigualicious on Dec 12, 2007 2:27 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Mock Roster Proposal
Rowand's career slg is about 90 points higher and he's 5 years younger.  Let's not let hyperbole get in the way of facts.
McCovey Chronicles was better when mine was the lowest IQ on the board.

by Goofus on Dec 12, 2007 8:17 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Mock Roster Proposal
I didn't suggest signing Roberts for five years, either.  Me, I'll give Rowand a slugging advantage over Roberts -- a small one.  Use road stats to elide the difference between hitting at home in bandboxes, like Rowand has done, versus fair parks, as Roberts has.

    2005-2007 road slugging
Rowand        .438
Roberts        .414

If you think those 25 points in slugging make up for Roberts 15-point OBP advantage, you may well be right.  Results in comparable ballparks indicate, however, that over the last three years Rowand and Roberts have been very much the same batter.

by wcw on Dec 12, 2007 9:57 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

That's a somewhat ridiculous comparison
Since Roberts never seems to have more than 100 abs a year against lefties.  Of course his numbers are going to be more comparable since he's a career platoon player who isn't in the lineup when the hitting situation isn't in his favor.

by Sigualicious on Dec 12, 2007 11:31 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: That's a somewhat ridiculous comparison
    ABs    2005-2007 road slugging
Rowand    788    .438
Roberts    679    .414

100 extra ABs are not something to sniff at, so I'll rephrase: Rowand's bat is the same as a platoon of Dave Roberts and Rajai Davis.

Rowand is better than Roberts and Davis, but not by much.  Davis's slugging vs lefties over the same three years?  An adequate .394, with a .377 OBP.

Davis plays pretty good defense, too.

by wcw on Dec 13, 2007 6:53 AM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Mock Roster Proposal
All i want in my outfield is Schierholtz dammit, lets see what what what at lesat one of our non pitching prospects can do.

Winn
Rowand
Schierholtz

Back up: Davis

Trade Roberts for corn flakes and milk to be named later.

Id be okay with trading Winn as well and keeping a Roberts/Davis platoon.

Just please, do something about this. My blood pressure cant take it and i'm only 23 dammit.

by Giant Voodoo on Dec 12, 2007 1:47 PM PST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Mock Roster Proposal
lol, milk to be named later.  I'm hoping it's 2%.
Adopted Giant: Travis Denker. Good?

by scotterduder on Dec 12, 2007 1:55 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Mock Roster Proposal
I'll settle for anything not curdled.
All your signature are belong to us.

by EliminateMe on Dec 12, 2007 1:59 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Mock Roster Proposal
They cannot trade Winn now.  I mean, Winn = Rowand (ex Rowand hits RH).  Their '07 road numbers:
Winn:       292/356/462/818   10 HRs
Rowand:   299/368/475/843   10 HRs (with more games in the smaller parks in the East)

by allfrank on Dec 12, 2007 4:25 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Mock Roster Proposal
I forgot to finish that thought.  Winn = Rowand, Rowand = Winn, how can you trade one, how do you know who you are talking about, or who the other GM is talking about?
  I do now foresee a Cain for A Jones trade.

by allfrank on Dec 12, 2007 4:27 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Mock Roster Proposal
All well and good until Roberts approaches the plate...
Rockies juggernaut rolls o...ver , dead. NL West TempestTeapot CASE IN POINT!

by victor frankenstein on Dec 12, 2007 7:47 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Mock Roster Proposal
I'm not surprised by the Rowand signing... in fact, it's almost like a metaphor for Sabean's recent, CF-signin' career.

Like Rowand, Sabean has chased after an object with full, unbridled force. The object could, possibly, have been attained, if the correct path was taken to it. However, the smart route was not taken, with Sabean and Rowand bloody and broken, face first into a wall.

In Rowand's case, it was a ball. In Sabean's case, it's a World Series Ring.

Angel Villalona: A younger, better hitting Pedro Feliz. Rajai Davis: A younger, better everything Dave Roberts.

by AngelintheInfield on Dec 12, 2007 1:47 PM PST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Mock Roster Proposal
Brian Sabean: GAMER.
All your signature are belong to us.

by EliminateMe on Dec 12, 2007 2:00 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Mock Roster Proposal
What about the possibility that the White Sox (who just lost out on Rowand and Fukodome) might want to trade for a CF?  Could we get a 3B from them?  Please?
My fantasy team could beat up your fantasy team.

by Coach Kline on Dec 12, 2007 1:49 PM PST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Mock Roster Proposal
Thus far we have replaced Bonds with Riwand and resigned an aging SS....Can't wait to buy those seaon tickets...Who wants to bet that the name  "Rowand " will pop up on the Mitchell report tomorrow?
"Buy High-Sell Low"--The Brian Sabean Method Of Trading

by Mordy From Monsey on Dec 12, 2007 1:49 PM PST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Mock Roster Proposal
They really need to trade Roberts or Winn to ensure that Schierholtz plays everyday in RF.

If we end up with a Roberts-Rowand-Winn outfield, I'll be pissed.

Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.

by jponry on Dec 12, 2007 1:52 PM PST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Mock Roster Proposal
BUT WE NEED THE VETERAN SAVVY!@!@@!
Steve Kline: How okay is he, really? I would say he is pretty okay.

by groug on Dec 12, 2007 1:54 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Roberts-Rowand-Winn outfield
God, don't even say that out loud.

I really hope this signing means that the Giants will unload some of these outfielders, and I don't mean the young ones.    

by Widget on Dec 12, 2007 2:01 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Mock Roster Proposal
JP, it is obvious Schierholtz has no future with the Giants unless he can catch.  You know, wear the tools of ignorance.  It is more likely he will be packaged in a trade for J Pierre

by allfrank on Dec 12, 2007 4:30 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Mock Roster Proposal
Agreed. After years of following these kids in the minors--Kev, Freddie, Nate, Ort, I kinda feel sorry for them that they're with the Giants. If Nate and Kev don't get a chance to start next year (what more do they have to do?), here's wishin' they get traded to another team so that they can get their legitimate shots.  
Uribe to Thompson to Clark: Don't tinker ever with chance

by tellusfrank on Dec 12, 2007 11:00 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Mock Roster Proposal
For those who have a BP subscription, they did a player profile on Rowand near the beginning of the season, after Rowand had kicked off the season with an awesome start.

The sum conclusion (based mostly off BABIP) was that Rowand was going to come back down to earth, and that the power wasn't going to last. Well, the power lasted, although his numbers did come down to something more resembling his very solid 2004 season.

So, which Rowand are we getting? The .270/.320/.420 from his worse years, or the .310/.370/.515 from last year? If the former, then yeah, this stinks. If the latter, I don't hate this move. Yeah, I hate the money, and the years, but that production from CF, even regressed to a .290/.340/.470 isn't horrible.

That's the best I can come up with. If Rowand doesn't suck, this move isn't horrible. Good lord, but that is a pathetic excuse for an argument.

Snap judgement: the only reason I don't hate this move is that it means Lincecum stays. Addition by non-subtraction?

I'm as tall as Mel - why can't I hit 500 home runs?

by Ott on Dec 12, 2007 1:55 PM PST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Mock Roster Proposal
Zips projects .276/.339/.444, and that's in the Phillies bandbox.  I wouldn't be surprised by .260/.320/.400.

Dave Roberts, in other words, with better defense.

A stellar use of $20 million a year.

by wcw on Dec 12, 2007 2:50 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Mock Roster Proposal
Yeah, Mel, his numbers have to fall playing 110 games in the big parks in the NL West.  His on the road numbers last year, which are skewed slightly in favor of the smaller NL East paarks are:  299/368/475/843   w/ 10 HRs  - his HRs were hit mostly in that band box in Philly.  I think Sabean has no concept of park effects when looking at a player

by allfrank on Dec 12, 2007 4:34 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

More of the same
Last year about this time, I wrote a diary entitled Filling the holes we don't have. This year is following the exact same pattern, except center field is the new first base.

If we can swing trades for both Roberts and Winn - or at least one of them, plus getting something useful for Lewis and/or Davis - then this will make some sense. In the meantime, though, it looks an awful lot like the thinking that led to last year's four-first-basemen lineup.

All your signature are belong to us.

by EliminateMe on Dec 12, 2007 1:57 PM PST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: More of the same
filling the holes we dont have? why does that sound sexual?

by Giant Voodoo on Dec 12, 2007 2:29 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Mock Roster Proposal
When Ussmariner gave the Giants an F as an organization, I thought it was harsh.  I think Rowand proves that Sabean only knows how to sign overvalued/not-that-great free agents for way too many years, and the Giants deserve that F.
Adopted Giant: Travis Denker. Good?

by scotterduder on Dec 12, 2007 1:59 PM PST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Mock Roster Proposal
Nah, the organization gets a C.

F for Sabean and all who sail with him.
B for Tidrow and pitchers.
B for marketing and media.

Works out to about a C in my book.

In other words -- the Cubs of the freaking West Coast.

by wcw on Dec 12, 2007 2:51 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Mock Roster Proposal
The only positive to this signing is that the Giants website earlier reported that the deal was close to Hunter's deal with the Angels (5/90), but Fox Sports and MLBTraderumors reports it's a 5/60.  We saved 30 million.... that's a plus, right?  I like Rowand, but I agree that we didn't really need him and his power will probably go back to 10-15 homers, as I mentioned in an earlier post, essentially making him not worth 12 mil per year.  What are your thoughts on a Randy Winn or Dave Roberts for Joe Crede deal?  Not sure whether that would be considered fair on either side, just an idea to lose an OF, as they could use one, and pick up Crede cheap, as they are looking to deal him.

by jwirt19 on Dec 12, 2007 2:03 PM PST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Mock Roster Proposal
Like the Crede idea.  

by Glasscock on Dec 12, 2007 2:08 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Mock Roster Proposal
Rumor has it  that Crede's back's going to be strong.

by Glasscock on Dec 12, 2007 2:10 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Mock Roster Proposal
How about: Winn+Roberts+Sanchez/Lowry

For: Rolen+Duncan

Nevermind... pipedream and I knew it the instant I was done typing it, but maybe that would net us a decent 1B/3B combo.  New starting OF is Schierholtz Rowand and Lewis.  Hell, this general idea just makes too much sense for Sabean, even if the Cards would bite.

Idolizing Robb Nen since 2002...

by Smoke on the Water on Dec 12, 2007 5:59 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Mock Roster Proposal
ZIPS projects Rowand to hit .277/.340/.427 (97 OPS+) next year; .292/.364/.455 (111 OPS+) optimistic projection.

lol.

Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.

by jponry on Dec 12, 2007 2:03 PM PST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Mock Roster Proposal
BEAUTIFUL.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.

by jponry on Dec 12, 2007 3:13 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Mock Roster Proposal
I like your followthrough.
Dave Righetti: You Know You Want It. / Also, my blog. For writers.

by howtheyscored on Dec 12, 2007 3:13 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Mock Roster Proposal
Reality check:  Rowand's "power" played in the band boxes - The Cell and Citizens Bank.  

by Glasscock on Dec 12, 2007 2:04 PM PST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Mock Roster Proposal
I'm rolling on the floor reading MLB's Fantasy Impact of the Rowland deal;

"Rowand is a prime candidate to drop off after posting big numbers in his walk year with the Phillies. Thanks in part to the offensive-friendly environment of Citizens Bank Park, where he batted .319 with a .937 OPS, the 30-year-old finished with career highs in homers (27), RBIs (89) and runs (105) last season. Now, he'll be playing half his games at AT&T Park, a much tougher venue for hitters. Rowand will probably top off at around 20 jacks, with subsequent drops in RBIs and runs in 2008. Leaving a potent Phillies lineup for one that's still under post-Barry Bonds reconstruction doesn't help matters, either. Throw in his decreased activity on the basepaths, and Rowand is looking like an average mixed-league outfielder at this point."

If I owned this place and Hell, I'd rent this out and live in Hell...

by ilselu1 on Dec 12, 2007 2:04 PM PST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Mock Roster Proposal
Their projection of 20 HRs is incredibly generous.  He hit 17 in Philly, 10 on the road.  He'll play 81 games in AT&T, + 19 in LA and SD.  I think 15 + or - 1 is more likely.

by allfrank on Dec 12, 2007 4:40 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Mock Roster Proposal
Effing ridiculous. The Padres have to be our natural trading partner right now, right? We have most of the OFs, they have none? This year is going to be a trainwreck (and knowing Sabean he'll trade for Kouzmanoff, then stick him in LF or RF blocking Schierholz).

If he trades Cain or Lincecum after this POS singing I'm driving up to SF with a can of gasoline and a lighter and burning the Giants home office down. @#$!^*

by GiantFanInExile on Dec 12, 2007 2:04 PM PST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Mock Roster Proposal
I'd split the gas with you and bring some extra matches
Maybe this year we can knock the Dodgers out of the playoffs

by Bring Back the Thrill on Dec 12, 2007 2:13 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Mock Roster Proposal
Well, this is the Sabean/Colletti strategy - corner the OF market and make teams come begging to trade.  Crede?  Hell no, now it is Roberts for Fields, Vasquez, and Konerko

by allfrank on Dec 12, 2007 4:43 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Mock Roster Proposal
This is a good signing. 12 million a year for a gold glove CF with a little pop is a relatively good deal. Quit your whining, at least we kept Timmy Lincecum.

by GaryEdmundCarter on Dec 12, 2007 2:05 PM PST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Mock Roster Proposal
You mean, "little-to-no" pop, right?

by GiantFanInExile on Dec 12, 2007 2:11 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Mock Roster Proposal
Uh, no, I mean a little pop. Yeah, his 27 HR's were in a hitter friendly park, but if he manages to hit 18 or so at AT&T, with a average close to .300, I'd say that's equal to "a little pop."

Oh, don't forget the Gold Glove, either...

by GaryEdmundCarter on Dec 12, 2007 2:22 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Mock Roster Proposal
Projected Zips 2008 Player A: .282/.338/.429 Player B: .277/.340/.427 Guess which one is Randy Winn (hint, the other one is our new CF).

by GiantFanInExile on Dec 12, 2007 2:26 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Mock Roster Proposal
Well the Gold Glove doesn't mean very much, and the 27 HRs in a band box looks more and more like an extreme outlier when you look at his total career, when in 7 full mlb seasons he's only hit more than 15 HRs twice.
Dave Righetti: You Know You Want It. / Also, my blog. For writers.

by howtheyscored on Dec 12, 2007 2:33 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Mock Roster Proposal
The Gold Glove doesn't mean very much... ask Matt Cain about that. I'll bet it matters to Cain and the rest of the pitchers. "The Gold Glove doesn't mean very much" that's just silly.

Like I said, if Rowand hits 18 or so HR's and has a .300 or so average, he's worth the 60 million for 5 years. Yeah, 4 years would have been better, but hey, the Giants charge $30 to park and $8.50 for a beer for a reason.

by GaryEdmundCarter on Dec 12, 2007 2:38 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Mock Roster Proposal
Aaron Rowand has hit .300 or better twice in his career - why do you think that's a baseline expectation moving forward? Absolutely nobody expects him to hit better than .295 in any of the projections I've seen - nobody - and if he regresses he's Randy Winn with slightly better defense and 5 more home runs. As for the pitchers - yes, they probably do love having GG defense behind them, but admittedly they probably also want to have better hitters on the team too so that they can win games without having to pitch a no-hitter every night. How do you get better hitters. Well you could invest in GG defense for a position you already have organizational depth in, or you could put money into your scouting, international signings and draft picks. Here are the options: 1) Pay Rowand $12 per the next 5 years, bump Randy Winn (a good CF) to RF, block a guy who could hit better than both if he develops in Schierholz, have limited funds for scouting and signing international prospects and draft picks. 2) Play Winn in CF, Schierholz in RF, invest the $12 mil a year into players the Giants could actually use, like the first draft pick they want (not the guy they have to sign because of funds). I'd rather have option 2, because best I can tell, Aaron Rowand's GG does not mean the difference between last place and second to last. Rowand is a great average player - for someone else.

by GiantFanInExile on Dec 12, 2007 2:57 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Mock Roster Proposal
Players they can afford? The Giants' organization isn't exactly the Pirates' or the Rays' organizations. I'm tied of the Giants playing the poverty card.

Also, you seem to be overlooking the fact that Rowand is 30, not 35. He's just reached his power years. I'm not saying that he'll hit 25 HR's but he'll hit 18 or so. 18 or so HR's, .300 or so average, and Gold Glove defense = a good signing.

Lap it up, pilgrim, Rowand is a Giant.

by GaryEdmundCarter on Dec 12, 2007 3:47 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Mock Roster Proposal
As I put it in the other thread, Rowand is Dave Roberts 3.1: same bat, better defense.  Viz http://www.mccoveychronicles.com/comments/2007/12/12/152031/44/36#36

Rowand EqA the last four years: .292, .252, .252, .294
Roberts EqA for the same years: .260, .283, .283, .253

'Nuff sed.

by wcw on Dec 12, 2007 3:56 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Mock Roster Proposal
Rowand is the same bat as Roberts... That is absolutely effing ridiculous.

When is the last time Roberts hit 27 HR's or 15 HR's or even 10 HR's?

You should be ashamed of yourself.

'Nuff said.

by GaryEdmundCarter on Dec 12, 2007 4:01 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Mock Roster Proposal
See the road stats I posted above.  Rowand is Roberts with .025 more slugging pop, less -.015 on-base skill.  They've been basically identical the last three years running.

The headline stats are different, true, mainly because Rowand has played his home games in parks like Philly and Chicago South.  Here are each player's HR park factors for respective parks and years:
    Rowand home    Roberts home
2005    1.04        0.75
2006    1.20        0.98
2007    1.42        0.81

But hey, if you want to believe every hitter who passes through Colorado is great, be my guest.

Just don't ever run my baseball team, m'kay?

by wcw on Dec 12, 2007 10:07 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Mock Roster Proposal
as i am also a stat junkie, i do know that you can pretty much make stats say what ever you want, and while i dont think he is a far cry from randy winn, those of you comparing him to dave roberts should be ashamed of what ur saying

also i have read every projection in the book about most of these guys, and let me tell you they were far off last year and will continue to be far off this year, so please dont ever base an argument on that  

by jeffc on Dec 13, 2007 4:41 AM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Mock Roster Proposal
To say they're the same bat is folly

Roberts career OPS+ (adjusted for park effects) : 90
Rowand career OPS+ (adjusted for park effects) : 106

by GiantFan on Dec 13, 2007 5:27 AM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Mock Roster Proposal
EqA as noted in http://www.mccoveychronicles.com/comments/2007/12/12/164639/53/114#114 says Rowand is better -- but only a little bit.  Still, I think I was wrong to say his bat is like Roberts', since Roberts really doesn't hit lefties.

His bat is, however, very much like a platoon of Roberts and Davis.  http://www.mccoveychronicles.com/comments/2007/12/12/164639/53/206#206

by wcw on Dec 13, 2007 6:56 AM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Mock Roster Proposal
Or even better - compare Rowand to Winn.

by GiantFanInExile on Dec 12, 2007 4:09 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Mock Roster Proposal
The Giants may not be the Pirates or Rays but they are also not the Red Sox or the Yankees, are still paying down debt on that nifty stadium they built a few years back and have a ridiculously thin farm system, so yes, surprisingly enough, the Giants could use the money elsewhere (esp. when they compound this $12m/year paying the tab for some other team to play Winn or Roberts in 2008). Also, I'm not overlooking the fact that Rowand is 30 - I just don't think it's particularly relevant when talking about his value, though, I think perhaps you are overlooking the fact that by the time the Giants are contending Rowand will likely be 34 or 35 and not better than - or even the same as - the player he was in his career best year (likely last year with the Phillies). If I wanted a player who could play decent D in CF, hit close to .300 (but likely closer to .275) and hit between 10-20 home runs a year while the team rebuilt, I'd sign Randy Winn. (Oh, wait...) The difference of opinion between you and me is that I think there are four competent CFs already in the organization that we're already paying who could roam the grass for a few years while we invest in positions where we have need, whereas you think Rowand is the difference between the Giants being in last place and... what, exactly? (And the "lap it up" stuff - I'll just try to forget I read that cause seriously, that was just embarrassing for me to read.) p.s. You never guessed who was Winn and who was Rowand in those Zips projections. Go on, give it a whirl!

by GiantFanInExile on Dec 12, 2007 4:12 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Mock Roster Proposal
I'm sorry I didn't guess who was Winn and who was Rowland. I'm sorry for not being stat geeky enough. Winn had a good year last year, though. So, I don't mind the comparison. In fact, I like it. I like Winn and I like Rowland. I like Rowland playing CF and making 12 million a year. Lap it up, Fester, Rowland is a Giant at long last!

Rowland won't guarantee a first place finish, but he'll go a long way towards helping the Giant's wild card chances. I means really, you have to admit that.

As for paying off the debt of the park, too effing bad. $8.50 a beer and $30 parking and a packed house every night means they have some money to spend.

by GaryEdmundCarter on Dec 12, 2007 6:11 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

You think...
Aaron Rowand is going to propel the Giants to a Wild Card finish?  In the West?  Arguably now the strongest division in the NL?
Coming to you from The Land of Many Beers.

by WalrusMan on Dec 12, 2007 9:03 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Mock Roster Proposal
Who needs stats when you have Aaron Rowand!!!1!!!11!! W00T - with Randy Winn and Rowand in the OF, the wildcard out of the NL West is surely ours! Suck it Padres, Dodgers, Rockies and/or Diamondbacks!

by GiantFanInExile on Dec 12, 2007 9:52 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Mock Roster Proposal
My favorite part (other than the utter disregard for stats and his "argument" that "he'll go a long way towards helping the Giants' wild card chances) is his insistence on calling him "Rowland".  Maybe he's talking about a mystical home-run hitting machine from the future named Rowland?  Then this would all make a lot more sense.
Adopted Giant: Travis Denker. Good?

by scotterduder on Dec 12, 2007 10:16 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Mock Roster Proposal
Ok, I'll call him Rowand then. Is that better? Huh, Mr. Hand?

I don't have an utter disregard for stats, but I know enough about baseball to tell the stats geeks of the world that baseball is not math, it's baseball.

So, do me a favor, and go to Fontanetti's in San Jose and take a little BP. Stay off the computer for at least 3 days and then you'll be OK.

by GaryEdmundCarter on Dec 13, 2007 11:26 AM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Mock Roster Proposal
Me: "Hey Matt Cain, after losses where you give up 1 run and 3 hits, what do you find yourself wishing you had had; one less hit, or some freaking run support?"

Matt Cain: "I'll take that one less hit, everybody looks at peripherals these days, screw W-L records."

by Scottsdale on Dec 12, 2007 2:58 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Mock Roster Proposal
But you didn't see what I wrote. The Gold Glove is useless because the Gold Glove voting process is a joke and the award goes to popular batters instead of good fielders, and even when it is remotely based in fielding the voters still rely on archaic fielding stats like errors.

The Gold Glove means very little about good defense.

And about the HRs, what part of "in seven seasons only hit more than 15 HRs twice" means that we should ever expect him to hit 18 at AT&T? We can expect his power numbers to be moderately depressed by park effects to begin, but compound that with the fact that last year was a fluke AND a fluke that was helped out by a band box... I barely think it's reasonable to expect him to hit more than 12.

Dave Righetti: You Know You Want It. / Also, my blog. For writers.

by howtheyscored on Dec 12, 2007 3:02 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Mock Roster Proposal
I'm not ecstatic about the move either, but the whole "in seven seasons only hit more than 15 HRs twice" argument has got to stop.

Look at his numbers and you'll see that his first season he only played in 63 games and got 123 at bats. Of course he didn't have 15 jacks that season. In his second season he played 126 games and his third 93. It wasn't till his 4th-7th seasons that he got a real chance to put up numbers that we can evaluate him by on a season by season basis.

Over the last 4 seasons, including his two dud years (13 homers and 12 homers) he averages 19 a season. That's not shabby. Sure, it'll be tougher in SF, but please, no more "in seven seasons only hit more than 15 HRs twice". Faulty logic.

by khasson on Dec 12, 2007 3:31 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Mock Roster Proposal
Ah, yes, an injection of reason into the argument.

by GaryEdmundCarter on Dec 12, 2007 3:49 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Mock Roster Proposal
I admit I was unfair about his hitting. I do not think I was unfair about the Gold Glove Defense, but I was definitely unfair about his hitting.

Even so, I don't know how much we can read into career year last year, and based more heavily on his career numbers, expecting 18-20 HRs out of him is probably the high end of what we should expect him to do, especially at AT&T. I just don't like saying "I'll be happy if this player fulfills a best case scenario" is really the way I want to look at this signing. If I looked at signings that way, I'd never think any decision the team made was bad.

Dave Righetti: You Know You Want It. / Also, my blog. For writers.

by howtheyscored on Dec 12, 2007 3:59 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Mock Roster Proposal
Factoring in:
 - Career year in 2007
 - Played his entire career with more than half his games in in hitter-friendly ballparks
 - Now playing 100 games a year in Mays Field, LA and Petco
 - Played with teams that had good hitters up and down the lineup
 - Now playing on a team with Bengie Molina, cleanup hitter...

If forced to bet the house on whether Rowand's 2008 HR total will be closer to 15 or closer to 20, I'd bet on 15 without batting an eye.

by tobias on Dec 12, 2007 6:15 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Mock Roster Proposal
Excellent points, Tobias.  Rowand is exactly Randy Winn.  And Winn's 3 SF years (2 1/2, really) are interesting.  He had a career year, which projected out would be about 28 HRs (similar to Rowan's 27 this year).  Then he had a bad/injured year, 11 HRs, and a good, decent, average year, 14 HRs.  Last year, on the road (which takes out the bump Rowan gets and the deficit Winn gets) they each hit 10 HRs.  I think Rowan's drop off from a career/contract year cancels out his RH hitting advantage in AT&T, so I think they both come in with 14-17 HRs next year.

by allfrank on Dec 12, 2007 7:58 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Mock Roster Proposal
Yes, and 14-17 HR's (I predict 18), along with a .290-.300 average and Gold Glove defense = well worth 12 million. God bless Aaron Rowland. Long live Randy Winn. Bengie Molina for President.

by GaryEdmundCarter on Dec 13, 2007 11:01 AM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Mock Roster Proposal
More than half those things probably aren't going to happen. The third and sixth things? Yeah, those look pretty likely. Hopefully the fifth thing too. But the rest...pretty iffy I'd say.

Here's hoping they all happen. Even the seventh thing. I think he'd be aces.

by tobias on Dec 14, 2007 10:57 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Mock Roster Proposal
You're absolutely right. I cherry picked that a bit and I should have been more thorough about my logic. And when I said we shouldn't expect him to even hit 12, that was just plain hyperbolic and completely unfair. He should be expected to hit at least 12...

The truth is I have no idea which version of the wildly inconsistent Aaron Rowand we're going to get, but I'm trying really hard not to be fooled by his career year (maybe the wrong way to think, sure), and the rest of his career just doesn't inspire a whole lot of power confidence. I'd be happy if he hits 18-20 HRs, but if he regresses and depresses (for park), I just don't think I should be able to expect it.

Dave Righetti: You Know You Want It. / Also, my blog. For writers.

by howtheyscored on Dec 12, 2007 3:55 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Mock Roster Proposal
Oh also, he only played in 109 games in 2006 when he hit 12 homers.

by khasson on Dec 12, 2007 3:36 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Mock Roster Proposal
Yeah, Howie, he got hot in Aug and Sep when they had a lot of hopme games and hit 12 HRs

by allfrank on Dec 12, 2007 4:46 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Mock Roster Proposal
Yeah, Rios is a centerfielder.  No way we'd trade for another cen....  ah f#ck!
Brian Sabean, Kicking tires and taking names... names of guys that we don't want

by Angry Monkey on Dec 12, 2007 2:14 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Mock Roster Proposal
What I really want to know now is does he have a no-trade clause (you'd think he would). The only bright side of this signing would be is if he's tradeable in a year or two.  

by GiantFanInExile on Dec 12, 2007 2:06 PM PST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Sabean's though process:
Limited no trade clauses for all!

<booooooooooo!>

Screw you then, full no trade clauses for all! And miniature american flags for me!

Dave Righetti: You Know You Want It. / Also, my blog. For writers.

by howtheyscored on Dec 12, 2007 2:09 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Mock Roster Proposal
What should Sabean have done? Who should he have signed to help the 2008 team? Hmm?

by GaryEdmundCarter on Dec 12, 2007 2:30 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Mock Roster Proposal
"Nobody" might have been a good start.

Or, "some 3b" would have also been acceptable.

Dave Righetti: You Know You Want It. / Also, my blog. For writers.

by howtheyscored on Dec 12, 2007 2:34 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Mock Roster Proposal
How about Frandsen at 3B and move Schierholtz to 1B. Schierholtz was drafted as a 3b, so he can probably pick up 1b fairly easily.  This way, we stay away from stinking Inge and don't need to bring back Peter Happy.

Cheer up, Bubby. All is not lost.

by GaryEdmundCarter on Dec 12, 2007 2:48 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Mock Roster Proposal
Jacking prospects around is not my idea of a good time, on top of which 1b is not a universal plug and there is no reason to expect that Nate would be able to make the adjustment.

I also believe that forcing Nate to learn 1b next season could have serious negative effects on his hitting. He shouldn't have to be worried about a new position when what we really need is for him to adjust to hitting a an MLB level.

I've long argued that Nate at first is pretty dumb, and I don't like it any more now than I did before. I'd rather Nate takes another year at Fresno than have to learn first base in order to get a few at bats.

Dave Righetti: You Know You Want It. / Also, my blog. For writers.

by howtheyscored on Dec 12, 2007 3:07 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Neither has a shot at being avg at those positions
I wouldn't be surprised if they'd be that much above replacement level really at first and third. It'd be a pretty bad move.

by awesomer on Dec 12, 2007 3:18 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Mock Roster Proposal
Nobody. Why try and help the 2008 team with a big free agent signing - they're going to finish in last place no matter who they sign. Invest in 2009 and beyond by spending that $12mil on international signings, draft picks and free agents (next year) at positions where we have holes. Who is going to help this team more by the time we're contending - Rowand at the tail end of this contract or the college 1B or 3B that we drafted in 2008 (or the Villalona Jr. that we signed in 2008)?

by GiantFanInExile on Dec 12, 2007 3:08 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Mock Roster Proposal
while i agree that parts of your earlier argument were true, signing somebody just because they is nobody else throw money at is a bad way to start this one

by jeffc on Dec 13, 2007 4:46 AM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Mock Roster Proposal
So... have we officially eclipsed every team in the league in terms of the ease with which we can be laughed at?
Dave Righetti: You Know You Want It. / Also, my blog. For writers.

by howtheyscored on Dec 12, 2007 2:07 PM PST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Mock Roster Proposal
Absolutely.  Only competitors might be the Astros and the Pirates (the Matt Morris trade still makes me smile).
Adopted Giant: Travis Denker. Good?

by scotterduder on Dec 12, 2007 2:15 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Mock Roster Proposal
I think we're in the lead, but the Pirates can pull back ahead by trading Jason Bay for Brandon Inge or something ...

by Evan on Dec 12, 2007 2:16 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

They have Huntington now
I'm guessing things like that won't be happening anymore.

Finally, the Giants win at something.

by awesomer on Dec 12, 2007 2:19 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Mock Roster Proposal
Everyone keeps saying we lose 2 draft picks.  MLB Trade Rumors says our 5th overall, 1st round pick is protected, so which picks do we lose?  2nd and 3rd round?

by jwirt19 on Dec 12, 2007 2:13 PM PST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Mock Roster Proposal
I think we only lose one, but the Phils get a sandwich pick on top of that.

by Skaldheim on Dec 12, 2007 2:15 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Mock Roster Proposal
We don't need draft picks! Clearly, we can just sign Michael Tucker instead. I hear he's out of work.

by MidKnight on Dec 12, 2007 2:20 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Mock Roster Proposal
yes that is correct, we lose or second round pick, and the phillies get a compensatory sandwich pick between the first and second rounds, the sandwich pick costs us nothing

by jeffc on Dec 13, 2007 4:52 AM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Mock Roster Proposal
ok, i hate this trade too, but i looked up his splits for last year and he pretty much crushed the rest of the nl west on the road. so if we give him a break for now having att as home instead of enemy territory, AND we somehow get rid of the chaff instead of the wheat of our outfield mob and somehow turn it into a 3b, then im not suicidal.

what about roberts and hennesey for crede?

thank god the patriots dont have the giants' first round pick too

by son of riles on Dec 12, 2007 2:18 PM PST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Mock Roster Proposal
Crede sucked last year.  Looked like he was totally confused at the plate.  If you can get him on the cheap maybe.  I'm not a fan of streaky guys like him.
Brian Sabean, Kicking tires and taking names... names of guys that we don't want

by Angry Monkey on Dec 12, 2007 2:21 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Mock Roster Proposal
Aside from the fact that Crede is not a good player, he also has a history of back problems. Course, that's better than what we have right now, so get 'er done Sabes!

by GiantFanInExile on Dec 12, 2007 2:28 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Mock Roster Proposal
Grant gives two ways for the AR signing "okay":
  1. Rowand doesn't bat like Rowand 2005 and 2006, but instead like Rowand 2007.
  2. The giants try to move Winn.
I'll take #1, but like Grant says, its scary. As for #2, I want more than "try and trade Winn".  I want Winn and Roberts traded and for players with value, not just salary dumps. The vets should be gone. And one or two of Dan, Fred, Nate, Raj can also be used as deal sweeteners.

Sabean, try and fill a position the Giants need.  A 1b. A 3b.  AA and AAA level prospects.

Stupid Rowand.  Stupid Sabean. Stupid stupid stupid.

Anger makes me want to start a pool for AR's first concussion, first DL stint for broken bone, and when he'll pull a Matheny all due to his reckless play.

i need to calm down. jeesh. for one, I didn't have cable or sportcenter this past season, so rowand is still a teens hr power guy and "web gem" concussion waiting to happen.  Maybe, he has matured into a 30 HR slugging Gold Glove CFer.  (still need to trade away Winn and Roberts now though.)

by kennv on Dec 12, 2007 2:22 PM PST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

salary: $90m
..is supposedly $85-90m.

At $60m I would just be a little sour about the draft pick and the sheer idiocy involved.  At $90m, I think to myself, 'that's a lot of Villalonas someone could have signed.'

Is there a worse large-market GM than Sabean right now?

by wcw on Dec 12, 2007 2:57 PM PST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: salary: $90m
I'm not convinced there is a worse GM in any market - the Orioles are mostly screwed by their owner and I don't know who else could compete.
Barry Zito: Mike Hampton with a guitar

by JakeS on Dec 12, 2007 2:59 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: salary: $90m
someone said Bavasi (Mariners), and 1 other name I didn't recognize.

by zenbitz on Dec 12, 2007 3:09 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: salary: $90m
It's 60 million.  Who do you think he is, Carlos Lee or something?
you will suffer humiliation when the sports team from my area defeats the sports team from your area

by nick on Dec 12, 2007 3:10 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: salary: $90m
I'm seeing both in different places.

I guess I can go back merely to being sour about the draft pick and the sheer idiocy.  The highest compliment I can pay Brian Sabean is that he's merely an idiot.

Nice work.

by wcw on Dec 12, 2007 3:14 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: salary: $90m
It's now being reported at $60M. So bring on the sourness.
All your signature are belong to us.

by EliminateMe on Dec 12, 2007 3:33 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: salary: $90m
See above, and also http://www.mccoveychronicles.com/comments/2007/12/12/152031/44/36#36

by wcw on Dec 12, 2007 3:57 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Mock Roster Proposal
Jesus. Effing. Christ. So, now that the Pirates have somebody who seems to have a vague concept of how to run a baseball team is it just us and the Orioles as the two worst run teams in baseball?

Seriously, this is bullshit. I hate being the laughingstock of the baseball world and now we just have another untradable fucking Barry Zito commodity. GODDAMMIT. I'm sorry for cursing.

Barry Zito: Mike Hampton with a guitar

by JakeS on Dec 12, 2007 2:59 PM PST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Mock Roster Proposal
AT LEAST WE'RE NOT TRADING THE ENCHANTER

(lather rinse repeat)

you will suffer humiliation when the sports team from my area defeats the sports team from your area

by nick on Dec 12, 2007 3:11 PM PST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Mock Roster Proposal
You know, on the bright side, this means we won't be trading Lincecum for Rios.

Oh wait.

Sabean lives in opposite-land, where below-average players are SUPER SUPERSTARS dsfjkbjfkdsb!!111

I bet we're gonna get Rios..

by lmaozedong on Dec 12, 2007 3:12 PM PST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Mock Roster Proposal
AAAAAARGH!!!!!!  60 million! I bet the next bidder was offering him 3 yr./ 20 million.  F U Sabean.
Please don't trade Cain or Lincecum!

by BondOrBust on Dec 12, 2007 3:20 PM PST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Mock Roster Proposal
I like this deal. 5 yrars 60 mill is not that bad. Lincecain will be around still. The defense will be improved. I think Sabean has a plan and he's sticking to it. speed defense and pitching, it's not the sexiest plan but I think it'll work. I suspect he has another deal or two in him. I'm gonna wait it out and see what other moves he makes before I throw him under the bus. I hear there's a chance that Will Clark will be making a comeback...

by barblechuck on Dec 12, 2007 3:21 PM PST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Mock Roster Proposal
If you're interested in hearing how Sabes "kicked the tires" and "did his due diligence" and how "at the end of the day, Rowand was a perfect fit." He will be on with the Razor and Mr. T at 4:30
Adopted Giant Brian Wilson: Welcome Back!

by sfgreg on Dec 12, 2007 3:24 PM PST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Mock Roster Proposal
If anyone calls, would they please mention:
 - the roster currently sports four (4) CF-capable OF in Winn, Roberts, Lewis and Davis
 - giving up draft picks for FA has worked *real* well lately (like 2005.. ugh..)
 - Rowand's bat will be moving from a bandbox to a real park
 - and that you hear the other high bidder was 3Y/$20m

Thanks.

That idiot...

by wcw on Dec 12, 2007 3:31 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Mock Roster Proposal
Dear Mr. Sabean.

My name is Hugh. I played center field in the Montclair Junior Baseball League in the fabled summer of 1977. Coincidentally enough - I played for the Giants! I would welcome the opportunity to bolster your outfield, which is looking a little thin. I would only require three years at 6 million per. Such a deal! My agent, XieFrank Boras, awaits your call.

Tim Lincecum is the light and truth, and I will enjoy becoming pure energy when he determines it is time to ascend.

by HughG16 on Dec 12, 2007 3:26 PM PST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: THE RESERECTION OF GORNYSON!!!!!
I'm sorry. You seem to have added an R, an E, and an S to your subject that shouldn't be there.
Dave Righetti: You Know You Want It. / Also, my blog. For writers.

by howtheyscored on Dec 12, 2007 3:27 PM PST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: THE RESERECTION OF GORNYSON!!!!!
RES - ERECTION, I think is the joke he's making.
Thank God that's over.

by southcitysteve on Dec 12, 2007 4:13 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: THE RESERECTION OF GORNYSON!!!!!
I probably never should have made the first comment to begin with. I'll just be staying away from it at this point.

But yeah, that was the joke.

Dave Righetti: You Know You Want It. / Also, my blog. For writers.

by howtheyscored on Dec 12, 2007 4:17 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: THE RESERECTION OF GORNYSON!!!!!
I just kept thinking "resurrection isn't spelled that way...", although that possibility did come up in my mind.
Nattowear | comics | Durham? I hardly know 'im!

by Natto on Dec 12, 2007 4:22 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Mock Roster Proposal
My projections have this team scoring anywhere from 600 to 620 runs, depending on how playing time shakes out between Schierholtz and Roberts in the outfield and whether or not we bring back Pedro Feliz.
Barry Zito: Mike Hampton with a guitar

by JakeS on Dec 12, 2007 4:00 PM PST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Mock Roster Proposal
And I would consider that a little optimistic.
Barry Zito: Mike Hampton with a guitar

by JakeS on Dec 12, 2007 4:04 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Mock Roster Proposal
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3152201

Rowand is expected to bat fifth? Who is batting third and fourth? I think Sabes forgot that protecting Barry's bat isn't a problem without Bonds. Is the 3-4-5 actually Winn, Durham, Rowand?
I'm more confused than before...

At least Sabean said Cain and Lincecum are untouchable now. That, at least, is encouraging.

lincecum, cain, lowry, sanchez for jeff kent

by lincysgiants on Dec 12, 2007 4:07 PM PST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Mock Roster Proposal
Bochy sez:
  1. Winn
  2. B-Money
  3. Rowand
I guess you can extrapolate that to
  1. DRoberts Lf
  2. Frandsen? 3b
  3. Winn Rf
  4. Benji C
  5. Rowand Cf
  6. Durham 2b
  7. Ort? Richie? Schierholtz? 1b
  8. Vizquel SS
there is no pain greater than being behind the Rockies in the standings

by oldjacket on Dec 12, 2007 4:19 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Mock Roster Proposal
I think I'm going to be sick....
Hitler was a Dodgers fan.

by The Nick on Dec 12, 2007 5:51 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Mock Roster Proposal
A few thoughts on this one.... I like the player, but I tend to think before jumping to a conclusion that we can't possibly be done... One or two of these outfielders is being packaged for somebody else. Probably something completely off the radar, but it HAS to be a piece of the puzzle... I am really looking forward to hearing Sab's at 4:30. I know he won't show his cards (he never does) but there has to be more to this...

Possible Rolland? No, Cards have too many outfielders..
Inge? No way... don't see it happening..
Two for one Matsui deal, maybe?
Three for one deal with the Astro's and Carlos Lee? (yea, a guy in Houston has told me this has been discussed locally but I can't find anything on it)

Anything goes, thats for sure.... really to me the only way this doesn't make sense is if this is the only move we make...

I smell a blockbuster coming..... wait.... no maybe thats the Gallo wine plant down the street.

Ain't nothing that hurts worse than a good Shinburger... ~Krukow

by HarshInFresno on Dec 12, 2007 4:09 PM PST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Mock Roster Proposal
I'm going to predict 265/330/425 for Rowand next year and I expect him to decline from there.  

This is in short, a terrible move.  It's this kind of pissant maneuver that will delay the return of a strong Giant's team by diverting money that could go to promising free agents in 08 and 09.  Once again, Sabean signs a player after a career year.  

It also creates problems for developing our young outfielders like Davis and Schierholtz.  I understand people were impatient to see something, anything happen.  But this is a failure and we won't be fielding a competitive team now until 2010 at the earliest or more likely until 2011.  

Zealously advocating for Nate the Great since 2007.

by orangeandblackattack on Dec 12, 2007 4:39 PM PST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

THIS IS NOT THE NFL OR YOUR MONEY
There is no salary cap.  So any talk of money being diverted is a non-issue.  And the Giants are not a small market teams.  Furthermore, I'm sure you noticed the Giants are buying up televison rights.  The money will not be a problem for this organization.

by Sigualicious on Dec 12, 2007 5:28 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Alas
Were it only so.  The Giants are only going to spend as much money as they make.  Their revenue is going to start taking massive hits and they are going to have tons of money committed to under performing free agents.  It's a self-perpetuating negative spiral.

Maybe the current owners will sell the team to someone who doesn't mind losing money to win ball games.  Unfortunately there's not that many rich people who like to lose money.  It's far more likely that they get someone who wants to make an annual cash profit from their team.  And then we end up with the 1970-1985 Giants.    

Zealously advocating for Nate the Great since 2007.

by orangeandblackattack on Dec 12, 2007 5:35 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

It doesn't really matter if it's not our money...
It's someones money.  And they want to spend it just like you would.
Coming to you from The Land of Many Beers.

by WalrusMan on Dec 12, 2007 9:13 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Mock Roster Proposal
His power looked terrible in 06' because he missed 60ish games.  Not that 18 homers is incredible, but its better than Rajai or Roberts...

by boonitez on Dec 12, 2007 4:40 PM PST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Mock Roster Proposal
Well another problem with Rowand is that his all-out style of play can often lead to him being... a bit prone to injury and missing time.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.

by jponry on Dec 12, 2007 4:52 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Mock Roster Proposal
The pessimism is killing me. It may equal this potentially bad decision. Certainly many good points and some good sarcasm. No doubt cause for concern but today... I'll just be happy we got last year's MVP and believe he's figured it out and will be the "warrior" our manager believes he is. I'll also be optimistic and believe that Winn's gone, Robert's is gone, Lowry is bringing us some prospects and Sabean did this to tell the Yankees and Jays and Jones to go get screwed and he's working on the real moves. I'm believing next year Rowand is an AS, we get another missing piece, our young player develop and our pitching carries us. Now I'm happy again. Do I have to be depressed before the fricking season?

by Giant Escape on Dec 12, 2007 4:44 PM PST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Mock Roster Proposal
We got Jimmy Rollins?
Barry Zito: Mike Hampton with a guitar

by JakeS on Dec 12, 2007 5:24 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Mock Roster Proposal
See there ya go again... Leave me alone in my bliss. This is why I drink...well that and x-wives.

by Giant Escape on Dec 12, 2007 5:30 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Mock Roster Proposal
Well after the interview on KNBR Sabians statement saying that we are a "Work in Progress" and we continue to have talks with the Brewers, tells me that there is still something thats in the works...

You don't stock 16,000 outfielders with out having some kind of plan...

Look for something to happen after the first of the year...

Ain't nothing that hurts worse than a good Shinburger... ~Krukow

by HarshInFresno on Dec 12, 2007 4:57 PM PST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Mock Roster Proposal
At least Mr. T basically called Sabean a d-bag for signing Roberts last year, and at least Sabean agreed. As I think of this deal more I begin to like it slightly more...Rowand is a good clubhouse guy, as is Zito and some of the other vets, and I think finally the Giants may have a good clubhouse this year without Bonds mania.

I guess I have a few reservations for the following reasons;

  1. The getting younger idea only works if the youngsters aren't blocked, and the outfield is one place where you now just blocked Rajai, Freddy, and Nate.
  2. Rowand is a talented player, but not one to build a franchise around, I think he could be a good RBI guy...but who will be on base?
  3. This seems to be a move that opens the door to other moves... but I want to know what moves and who is the trade bait? If it's a Sanchez for Matsui deal then I'm in...but if it's a Lowry for Bill Hall deal I'm out (not that I don't kinda like Hall, but he's an outfielder/second baseman...which further murders the youth movement)
What's next Bri-Bri?
lincecum, cain, lowry, sanchez for jeff kent

by lincysgiants on Dec 12, 2007 5:24 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Mock Roster Proposal
What did he say about talking to the Brewers?

by Dan from NM on Dec 12, 2007 7:04 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Mock Roster Proposal
Not much, when asked about Bill Hall he said they had had some talks, but nothing major.
lincecum, cain, lowry, sanchez for jeff kent

by lincysgiants on Dec 12, 2007 7:12 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Mock Roster Proposal
You do if you play in 4000 leagues

by allfrank on Dec 12, 2007 8:03 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Mock Roster Proposal
I should have known something bad was going to happen today. I swear this isn't a joke. I had a dream that the Giants signed Ellis Burks last night. And not 1998 Ellis Burks. Current Ellis Burks, if he's still alive. And I woke up this morning thinking "You know, I bet Sabean might actually look into that."

by saveuszito on Dec 12, 2007 5:37 PM PST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Mock Roster Proposal
I had a dream last night (and I swear, I am not making this up) that I had bone cancer in both arms, and the treatment was to give me AIDS intravenously to stop the cancer.

Parallels are obvious.

by zenbitz on Dec 12, 2007 7:34 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Mock Roster Proposal
Listening to everyone wank about what a terrible contract this is, is silly- none of us know what other teams were offering, and I honestly do not think 12 million a year is outrageous- an outfield with winn, roberts, davis, nate, whoever- would have been embarassing, at least now the giants have added a guy who plays hard, plays gold glove caliber defense and has a little pop-
It has become pretty obvious that because of the state of the giants, going forward, sabean is going to have to add that extra year or an extra million or two to lure any free agents to sign in sf.  all of the arm-chair GMs out there should temper their snarky comments and answer one question: What in god's name would you have done given the state of this team to improve this club for next year?? I for one say Rowand is a step in the right direction since those absurd one sided trades being proposed on this board are not only unrealistic, but a waste of time.

by mccormick22 on Dec 12, 2007 6:06 PM PST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Mock Roster Proposal
Thank you! You got it right. Oh, I don't like the five years but whatever.

Speaking of trades... Because the Giants helped themselves with this signing it would seem to make the Giants a bit stronger when it comes to dealing with other clubs. Other GMs are less likely to see desperation as a factor in dealing with the Giants.

The only move I'd make prior to spring training is to go after a third-baseman. Let Ortmeier have first base in spring training. As hard as it is to take for many Giants fan, start Durham just so he has the opportunity to rebound, and if so, trade him. Same can be said for Winn. Give Schierholtz some playing time, then deal Winn in they can.

by RUSirius on Dec 12, 2007 10:10 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Mock Roster Proposal


lol
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.

by jponry on Dec 12, 2007 6:29 PM PST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Mock Roster Proposal
It's like they took Messenger's photo and just stretched it.
Nattowear | comics | Durham? I hardly know 'im!

by Natto on Dec 12, 2007 7:00 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

One CF to rule them all...
but the front office were, all of them, deceived.
"cynical yet whimsical giants related signature"

by The Gene Hackman on Dec 12, 2007 6:33 PM PST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

wow
Nattowear | comics | Durham? I hardly know 'im!

by Natto on Dec 12, 2007 7:01 PM PST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: wow
I can't stop laughing at this exchange. I think it's because it's 3 AM.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.

by jponry on Dec 12, 2007 7:02 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: wow
11:39 here on the East Coast.

My Sans-A-Belt slacks are the A-Rod of my pants collection.  Not sure I'd sign them for 5-60, though.

by Your mother on Dec 12, 2007 8:41 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Mock Roster Proposal
Your looking at it all wrong. The Giants are working on a new defesive scheme by having a centerfielder, left centerfielder, rightcenterfielder, short centerfielder incenter baseman etc.

by resco16 on Dec 12, 2007 8:55 PM PST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Mock Roster Proposal
Bochy is saying Dave Roberts will start (with Winn and Rowand). What the hell is that, Schierholtz or Lewis deserve to be in much more than washed up dave roberts who was never that good to begin with. We dont need a 268 lifetime career hitter who is 35 clogging our outfield. We gotta go young.  

by stevealbs on Dec 12, 2007 9:08 PM PST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Mock Roster Proposal
Is anyone able to download Sabean's interview on KNBR.com?

by KCE on Dec 12, 2007 9:14 PM PST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Good timing: season tix "deadline" today
Thanks, Giants!  Today is the first of two deadlines for season tixholders to renew; those who renew by today are eligible for some cool prize drawings, buying extra tix to Opening Day, etc.  I had been going back and forth on whether to renew at all, let alone by today.  I've been a sucker for so long & LOVE my seats (obviously, or I wouldn't memorialize them in my screenname) & love the people in my section & love taking my 2-year-old and will only love taking him more as he gets older...

But I've been so frustrated by the direction of the team (or should I say directionlessness of the team?).  I have been feeling more and more like the season tixholders were being played for suckers. This signing cinches that I am not renewing today... and I'm leaning away from renewing by the January deadline, too.  Crap weasels.

With the season over, I release my adoptee Brian Sabean. Good luck in the world, little buddy.

by Mayor of 311 on Dec 12, 2007 10:07 PM PST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Good timing: season tix "deadline"
But if you don't renew, you won't be in charge of section 311!  There will be a different mayor and you will have to cede your screenname!  Can you really live with that?
Steve Kline: How okay is he, really? I would say he is pretty okay.

by groug on Dec 12, 2007 10:29 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Good timing: season tix "deadline"
I don't know, my friend. I don't know. It's true that View Box 311 would be mayorless, and that I would be mayor of my couch and cat, at best.  And even then, I might get arrested for DUI then lose in a recount by 3 votes. (Shout out to Vallejo municipal politics, yo.)

Not to mention, I could no longer sleep with my employee-wife-of-deputy-chief-of-staff. Nor officiate illegal weddings between people of the same gender.

Sigh.  But no, I'm tired of feeling punked out like a prison bit&h. We'll see how I feel next month, but I am not thrilled with giving them more money.  Besides, I am 42 and in decent shape, though utterly unathletic-- they could hire me on the centerfielder staff at the league minimum salary.

With the season over, I release my adoptee Brian Sabean. Good luck in the world, little buddy.

by Mayor of 311 on Dec 12, 2007 10:47 PM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Mock Roster Proposal
I'm beginning to think Sabes knows something we don't.  Like Selig is going to create a new rule that will allow 3 center fielders.  Shallow, Mid and Deep.  If that is the case, this was a genius move.

I'm thinking Rowland plays Deep CF (he loves running into walls), Rajai or F-Lew Mid-CF and Roberts Shallow-CF (only because of the ball dudes have a better arm than him).

by NuschlersDip on Dec 12, 2007 10:18 PM PST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Keith Law
I won't post Keith Law's entire blog post about the signing, but as usual, he makes several good points:

http://insider.espn.go.com/espn/blog/index?entryID=3152808&name=law_keith

Rowand is a dead-fastball hitter with a complicated, high-effort swing that produces a lot of sound and fury, but a lot of swings and misses as well. His power is part real and part the effect of the hitters' parks where he's spent his entire career (56 homers at home versus 37 on the road). He's not enough of a contact hitter to predict high averages, and his batting average has fluctuated accordingly throughout his career. He is not patient, going after the first fastball he sees (or thinks he sees), never drawing more than 44 unintentional walks in a season. He's now moving to a bigger ballpark that's about as unfriendly to home runs as Philadelphia's park is friendly to them, and he's not going to make up for the loss of that power with good OBPs.

The Giants just gave a very good fourth outfielder who's stretched as an everyday player in most years five years and $60 million. It's reminiscent of the Angels' signing of Gary Matthews Jr. last winter -- a deal they regretted enough to replace him this winter. But the Giants' in-house alternatives were bad enough that the Rowand deal does make them a win or two better per year in the short term. They're not going to get their money's worth, nor was it worth giving up a second-round pick to sign him, and since the Giants are not likely to contend for at least the first three years of Rowand's deal, it's hard to see why they'd move to make such a large and lengthy commitment.

He also made the following comment in the comments section in response to a poster's whining about the farm system:

kevcon - they did draft very well in 2007, best of any club in my opinion. Lots of high-ceiling guys who won't all pan out, but enough of them should to help form the core of the next good Giants team, five or six years down the line.

by KCE on Dec 12, 2007 10:19 PM PST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Keith Law
Eh, I think calling him a good 4th outfielder isn't really fair, especially if he can play a good CF for the length of the contract. The problem is that that's basically how I feel about all three of our starting outfielders (Winn, Rowand, Roberts). So, one of them really needs to go.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.

by jponry on Dec 13, 2007 4:15 AM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Keith Law
Calling him a 4th outfielder is silly & just a term that people love to call outfielders who aren't stars. He's better than league average (including adjusting for park effects) & doesn't play at a premium offensive position (including good defense)

by GiantFan on Dec 13, 2007 5:24 AM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Keith Law
I agree that calling him a 4th outfielder is pretty unfair, but if he reverts to 2005 and 2006 form and puts up an OPS in the mid 700s, that is the stuff of a fringy regular. Especially if he can;t stay in CF for the life of the contract.

by KCE on Dec 13, 2007 7:17 AM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Keith Law
'Fringy regular with good defense' has always been the way I see him.  While his defense at age 35 will be weaker than it is now, I think he'll manage.  It's his bat that I doubt.

How this was better than a Roberts/Lewis/Davis CF eludes me.

by wcw on Dec 13, 2007 8:22 AM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Keith Law

It's all about his BA.
When he hits. .270ish, he's a good 4th OF. (05-06)
When he hist .305ish, he's a solid starter  (04,07)

by zenbitz on Dec 13, 2007 10:00 AM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Mock Roster Proposal
Newbie here...not a stat freak, but look at the center fielders on the free agent market this year and what they went for:

Andrew Jones avg $18 mil/year 2 yrs
Torii Hunter avg $15 mil/year 5 yrs
Mike Cameron who knows, but suspended for 1st part of next season

Aaron Rowand avg $12 mil/year 5 yrs

This is the going rate, people!  We live in an era of baseball where the sport is making more money than ever before, and salaries are exploding more every year.  Sabean just got a Gold Glove-caliber center fielder, a decent hitter with a little pop in his bat, and a grab bag full of "intangibles" and "clubhouse presence" for a below-league average for those skills.  Yes, five years is a long time, but Rowand will only be 35 at the end of this deal.

I would agree with the general sense of pessimism here if this was the only signifigant move Sabean and the Giants make this off-season, but I believe there a few other things in the hopper right now that will make this deal part of a larger picture.  Bottom line, we get an All-Star CF, and don't trade Linecain (declared "off-limits" in Sabeans' press conference today), keeping our core starting pitching intact.

Patience, people -- Sabean has re-stocked his front office with a new set of opinions/brain trusters, and is clearly navigating some troubled waters with a team in emergency rebuilding mode, and the first Giants team in over a decade that is not rebuilding with veteran quick-fixes around a superstar.  Not to mention he's going to the bargaining table with teams who are painfully aware of all of the Giants' weaknesses, empty farm system, and acute needs.  Yes, he brought us to this point and should shoulder at least part of the blame for the franchises' deep woes right now, but give him a chance to dig his way out.

I'll be right there piling on if Sabean signs or trades for more veteran stopgaps in a misguided attempt to contend RIGHT NOW rather than rebuild, but right now the Rowand signing is an encouraging sign that the franchise is building for the future...good luck and bless all Giants fans everywhere, cause it's bound to be a bumpy ride!

by eppmeister on Dec 12, 2007 11:43 PM PST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Mock Roster Proposal
Sabean did not pay 12 million for an all-star. Sabean payed 12 million for (and I quote Keith Law) "A good 4th outfielder" i.e. Fred Lewis with less walks and more power.

If you're defending this move you're sanity needs to be checked.

Fred Lewis - soon to be the all time Grand Slam leader

by Kestrel on Dec 13, 2007 1:51 AM PST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Mock Roster
We were on a o-thread
His lineup fell in the deep
Someone reached in and grabbed it
It was a mock roster!
"cynical yet whimsical giants related signature"

by The Gene Hackman on Dec 13, 2007 2:24 PM PST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

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