Gah.
by Grant on Nov 2, 2007 12:31 PM PDT
in News
45 comments
It's easy to be snarky about the Giants' offense. Really easy. It's easy to dismiss the offense's potential to be even average. Really, really easy. In fact, let's all take a moment to dismiss the offense's potential to be average.
...
Man, that's easy. This offense stinks. But follow me for a bit:
- I'm okay with Bengie Molina at catcher. He provides a little pop at a position where a lot of teams punt offense. The on-base percentage drags him down to average or just below average, but he isn't the biggest problem for the Giants.
- I'm okay with Kevin Frandsen at second. His hot September shouldn't count more than the bad months, but I'm willing to believe there's a correlation between the increased productivity and the regular at-bats. He's a career .328/.393/.459 hitter in the minors; if he did that in the Braves' system, we'd all want to trade for him.
- I'm okay with Rajai Davis and Fred Lewis handling center. They have a nice righty/lefty complement going, and they have the potential to be an above-average tandem. If Dave Roberts gets the bulk of the at-bats over Lewis, which seems more likely, we can at least hope for the second-half Dave Roberts (.291/.362/.388).
- I'm okay with Randy Winn in left. I'm even okay with him in right if Sabean fills left field with a power hitter. As long as he hits close to what he did last year, he's an average corner outfielder.
So the point of the offseason is to fill the holes at first, third, short, and the remaining corner outfield spot with productive hitters. Easier written than done, to be sure, but Sabean has to at least try. He can trade two from a list of Noah Lowry, Pat Misch, Jonathan Sanchez, and Kevin Correia. Maybe Brad Hennessey has enough trade value to bring back a guy like Akinori Iwamura. Maybe Seattle really would want to give away Richie Sexson. Maybe, maybe, maybe. It's the offseason. I can live with the maybes for now.
But if Sabean starts the offseason by filling two of the four holes with the same wretched no-hit players who helped ruin the offense last year, it would be a total failure of imagination. He'll have failed in a spectacular way. That link absolutely terrifies me. It can't be true.
I'm not buying it yet. There might be a scenario where Feliz's glove is worth re-signing, and the same goes for Vizquel. It's hard to imagine, but you can't just say, "Those guys? Gone. They were terrible, and we're moving in a different direction," in November. I'm going to hope that Sabean is just being political and not limiting his possibilities.
It would take a long and convoluted string of transactions to make Feliz and Vizquel both useful to the 2008 Giants. It would be an unlikely string of transactions. Starting with Feliz and Vizquel first would be like buying a new car first and a lottery ticket second. Please don't crush my hopes within two weeks of the World Series, Brian. Please. Have a heart.
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Re: Gah.
by orangeandblackattack on Nov 2, 2007 12:30 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Re: Gah.
by SloIsLonelyForTheOrange on Nov 2, 2007 1:40 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Gah.
by achiappanza on Nov 3, 2007 5:00 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Gah.
by giantsrainman on Nov 3, 2007 5:57 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Gah.
I am OK with EITHER Winn in Left OR Davis/Lewis.
Both seems betting on the 'Under'.
Frandsen/Molina is fine. Not "plus" but fine.
I am not even going to comment on the folly of entertaining another year of Feliz OR Vizquel.
What this team could use is a good 1 year stop-gap in left. High OBP, good slug, playing time and defense would be gravy.
Hmmm... where could we have gotten a player like that?
I put the odds of (OF snarking aside) of the Giants gets league avg. production out of 3B and 1B at 250:1.
They might get league average SS by sheer luck, but league av. SS isn't really going to bring up the bar.
by zenbitz on Nov 2, 2007 12:48 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Re: Gah.
Just pulled this off rotoworld and it made my stomach churn:
According to Tracy Ringolsby, the Giants have "let it be known that Tim Lincecum, their No. 1 pick in 2006, can be had for a quality bat."
Maybe he has Lincecum confused with Noah Lowry. He simply cannot be had for a quality bat. Maybe he'll be available in return for an exceptional bat. The only player we can think of that qualifies and might be available is Miguel Cabrera.
by ZeeGerman on Nov 2, 2007 12:52 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Re: Gah.
by travis j bagdad on Nov 2, 2007 6:03 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Gah.
by lunaticfringe1 on Nov 2, 2007 12:58 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Re: Gah.
by PacBellBoozer on Nov 2, 2007 2:51 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Gah.
by giantsrainman on Nov 2, 2007 2:57 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Gah.
The outfield is not bad - if you had sluggers elsewhere. Lots of speed and defense, and an intriguing young trio of Fred, Raj, and Nate. The fewest homeruns by any team's outfield in the entire majors?
I'm still betting the Giants set the record for most 1-0 losses in a season and break 100 for the year.
by Sayhey on Nov 2, 2007 1:06 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Re: Gah.
by Mike New on Nov 2, 2007 1:23 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Re: Gah.
LineUp:
Roberts LF
Davis RF
Torii Hunter CF
Miguel Cabrera 1B (Trade Lincecum and Winn)
Molina C
Durham 2B
Feliz 3B
Vizquel SS
Bench:
2 of Schierholtz, Lewis, and/or Ortmeier OF
Frandsen IF
Aurilia IF
Alfonzo or Rodriguez C
I can tolorate this a little better but it is still too little return for Lincecum (just 2 years of Cabrera). If we trade Cain or Lincecum whom we have under our control for 4 and 6 years respectively we need to get a BigBat we can control for at least as long and costs the same or less in dollars.
by giantsrainman on Nov 2, 2007 2:00 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Re: Gah.
I'd have to see an example of a "BigBat" in that catagory to believe that it exsists.
by Mark carry on on Nov 2, 2007 2:43 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Gah.
by giantsrainman on Nov 2, 2007 2:50 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
And most of these targets are unavailable,
by rfloh on Nov 3, 2007 12:03 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Gah.
The Giants' pitching should continue to improve, but the Giants as constituted would very likely struggle to score four runs per game.
Ask Matt Cain how THAT feels. :)
by sharksrog on Nov 2, 2007 2:18 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Re: Gah.
Sabes has a long history however of putting major resources towards a minor upgrade over the young (or young-ish) position player who looks like he is ready to be average next season, like he is the least of our problems.
Why make trade valuable pitchers to replace Santiago with Pierzynski, and why put so much money into Mike Matheny a year later - why not just give the job to Yorvit?
Why put all sorts of money into signing Edgardo Alfonzo - why not just give the job to Feliz?
Why sign Michael Tucker? Why not just re-sign Jose Cruz (muffed catch notwithstanding)?
In other words, my reading of Sabean's track record is that he probably has less confidence in Fransden or Davis/Lewis than in Dreamy or Fleas, and that he considers 2B and CF to be as much areas that need improvement as 3B and 1B do, and that we are as likely to see a useless Andruw Jones signing as we are a quite helpful ARod signing, and that he may think [a little hyperbole here] that trading for Luis Castillo or Mark Grudzielanek would be as helpful as trading for Sexson.
I hope I'm wrong.
by SnowLeopard on Nov 2, 2007 2:18 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Re: Gah.
I really don't want to see them resign Vizquel, as much as I love him as a player, but there really aren't any other options readily available. I'd rather see Lowry/Sanchez bring back a good 1B.
And if Sabean trades Lincecum for anyone other than Jose Reyes or Hanley Ramirez, I may think hard about loyally following Tim's new club.
by cain1rstballothof on Nov 2, 2007 8:29 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Gah-Gah: Sabean May Assume a Fetal Position
Though loaded with cash, Sabean's interest was sadly unrequited during the initial wave of high profile free agent pursuits last year. He will not forget that lonely, chilly, unloved feeling.
I'm betting Sabean feels he absolutely MUST fill the larder right now, before Nov. 12, with a few easily snaggable warm bodies -- bodies predisposed to sign and stay right here, where they are comfortable.
So brace yourselves, Grant and Co. The left side of the infield will be quickly signed, and, all things considered, inexpensively. One reason Sabean likes the two incumbents is they will not break his budget, either individually or collectively. Their relatively cheap signings might even allow the picking up other players, later, at the same positions.
And because Omar and Pedro are real major league commodities, the potential is there for them to be offered later this offseason to other nervous teams that come up short as the regular season approaches.
by Moggeee on Nov 2, 2007 9:50 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Re: Gah-Gah: Sabean May Assume a Fetal Position
QUICK...someone get me a whole Cod to slap him upside the head with!
by PacBellBoozer on Nov 2, 2007 9:57 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Gah-Gah: Sabean May Assume a Fetal Position
by howtheyscored on Nov 2, 2007 10:06 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Cod darned if I do, Fishwhipped if I don't
So for the first time in about a year, I was just trying to stay on topic.
End of Experiment.
by Moggeee on Nov 2, 2007 10:21 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Cod darned if I do, Fishwhipped if I don't
by PacBellBoozer on Nov 3, 2007 12:47 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Cod darned if I do, Fishwhipped if I don't
by Grant on Nov 3, 2007 9:59 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Putting myself on report, and ice
I'll just retire to my fishing igloo for a spell.
by Moggeee on Nov 3, 2007 10:34 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Gah-Gah: Sabean May Assume a Fetal Position
by PacBellBoozer on Nov 3, 2007 12:38 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Gah-Gah: Sabean May Assume a Fetal Position
by rxmeister on Nov 3, 2007 6:27 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Omar, especially, is remarkably well preserved
by Moggeee on Nov 3, 2007 10:41 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Omar, especially, is remarkably well preserved
by rxmeister on Nov 5, 2007 7:41 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Gah-Gah: Sabean May Assume a Fetal Position
I find myself in complete agreement. Way back to the Neifi signing Sabean's pattern of wasting dollars on insurance policies rather then realizing that players of this skill level are always available both later and cheaper is one of the bigest things that pisses me off about Sabean. Not as much as beliveing that multiple 5 average talents are worth more then one superstar but almost as much.
by giantsrainman on Nov 2, 2007 10:09 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Roberts ain't that bad
3 seasons prior: .277/.352/.401/.753
Second Half 2007: .291/.362/.388/.750
So basically in the first half, when his arm hurt so bad that he eventually needed surgery, he was hitting poorly. In the second half, once he was properly recovered, he hit approximately what he had hit in his previous 3 seasons.
People like to knock him and put him down, but he has been a good hitter over those years. His BB/K ratio was a good 0.85 and it was 0.74 in the second half, plus 0.80 in the final two months. The top hitters have a ratio over 1.00.
In addition, the best hitters have a good BB/K ratio AND a good BB%. His BB% was 10.4% in those 3 seasons, 10.0% in the second half. The best hitters have a BB% over 10%.
So cut Roberts a break, he has been a good hitter, just not a elite hitter, but for $6M per year, you are not really paying for an elite hitter.
Plus he has been an elite basestealer and people are totally missing the effect he can have on our farm system if he is teaching all our young speedsters. He can steal more bases just by teaching them how to steal bases more successfully, meaning they have have the same attempts, but have less caught stealings.
And he was considered an elite fielding LF in 2006, so our OF defense should rise greatly with Bonds no longer out there.
by obsessivegiantscompulsive on Nov 2, 2007 10:08 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Bonds out and Roberts' stock is up
Without Bonds, it is a given the Giants will have to manufacture runs. The stage is set for this guy. He may be instrumental in helping this power-poor team avoid the many shutouts which loom in our 2008 horoscope.
by Moggeee on Nov 2, 2007 10:36 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Roberts ain't that bad
Anyway, I agree that Roberts is still a useful player, and I think he'll have some trade value if we hang on to him till midseason.
by Evan on Nov 3, 2007 5:53 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Roberts ain't that bad
by Sayhey on Nov 3, 2007 12:46 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Gah.
by rxmeister on Nov 3, 2007 6:31 AM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Re: Gah.
Where? At SS, RF, CF, 2B and 1B? Or like 2B, LF, CF, RF, 1B?
With recent talk of resigning Vizquel, I've been wondering if it's worthwhile to give Fransden a month or so at MLB to try SS, while we test Durham at 2B. If Durham can't return to around a 800 OPS and comes back in 2008 with his 66 or whatever OPS+ for the first month(s), I would tend to think DFA. At the same time if Fransden is abysmal at SS the first month(s) he would be moved to 2B or 3B. Sort of a dual test to play out over ST and the beginning of a "rebuilding season". What do the giants have to lose (aside from 100 games)?
I don't think necessarily that Fransden's offense+defense at SS is greater than Omar's o+d. But I would like to see player's on the roster that we are already stuck with either traded or played, rather than benched for marginal improvements that don't actual make the Giants a winning team.
by kennv on Nov 3, 2007 8:41 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Gah.
by rxmeister on Nov 3, 2007 10:18 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Central Cali
Where? At SS, RF, CF, 2B and 1B? Or like 2B, LF, CF, RF, 1B?
Nah, if they all are to be in an Opening Day lineup, probably Fresno.
by wilriv21 on Nov 3, 2007 6:38 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Gah.
- Trade Durham anywhere that will take his salary in exchange for some minor league baubles (StL, Sea, ChiSx, etc).
- Three way trade : we send Zito (full salary) to the Yankees, and we send minor league baubles to Oakland. Yankees send minor league baubles to Oakland. Oakland sends Dan Johnson to us.
- Sign Barry for $8mx1y
- Sign AROD for $32mx8y
- Sign either Dreamy ($2mx1) or Fleas ($4mx1), depending on whether AROD can play SS
CF Lewis/Davis
RF Winn
LF Bonds
IF AROD
1B Johnson
C Molina
2B Fransden
IF Fleas or Dreamy
SP
Cain
Lincecum
Lowery
Sanchez
Correia
Total salary = ~ 2007 + $10m
Minor league system = drained a little
Offense = saved from being record-breakingly bad
by SnowLeopard on Nov 3, 2007 12:34 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Re: Gah.
P.P.S. Was I the only one turned off by Sabes' one word response to being asked about re-signing #25 : a dry "No". I mean, I get that BLB is a pain in the ass, and that their sick of his shit and all, but, really, I get sick of Sabes' cocky smarm (especially given his massive truckload of fail as of late), and I think that's no way to treat "The Franchise 93-06 (tm)".
by SnowLeopard on Nov 3, 2007 12:41 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Gah.
I don't see anything wrong with using him as a 1-year stopgap. I mean, we could put Frandsen at SS and Velez at 2B, but that could amount to being the worst defensive tandem in the Majors.
Omar's fine by me. I'd rather see a Lillibridge, Cabrera, Betancourt, Lowrie, etc. etc., but having Omar around for a year is no big deal.
by Anticon23 on Nov 3, 2007 5:18 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Re: Gah.
by taliesin on Nov 3, 2007 8:25 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Gah.
by rxmeister on Nov 5, 2007 7:43 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Gah.
Just riffing here.
by JRPhillips on Nov 5, 2007 7:59 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
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