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Baseball America grades the 2007 draft

http://www.baseballamerica.com/online/draft/features/265091.html - link, have to subscribe to BA to read it. Here's what you need to know, aka Giants stuff.

Baseball America's 2007 Draft Report Cards overview

College Draft All Stars:
Andy D'alessio
Danny Otero

High School All Stars:
Nick Noonan

Giants ranked 4th best draft overall (!)

College players-best debut:
Wendell Fairley listed second, but there is a group of college players listed 1-5 above a second list with no seperate heading, and Fairley is in the second list. Not sure what that means. Also in the best debut category is high school and junior college draftees, but the Giants didn't have anyone in those categories.

Timmy Alderson is the closest to the majors among high school draftees, they say.

Not really news as we know Noonan and Alderson are great, and the lovefest for D'alessio continues. I like that Otero is getting some attention too.

This FanPost is reader-generated, and it does not necessarily reflect the views of McCovey Chronicles. If the author uses filler to achieve the minimum word requirement, a moderator may edit the FanPost for his or her own amusement.

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Re: Baseball America grades the 2007 draft
Wait, did you say Fairley is in the best college debuts list? Didn't we draft him out of high school? And didn't he not actually debut yet?

Still, nice to hear that we did have a good draft (though I'm sure a lot of that is due to the high number of picks we had.)

Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.

by jponry on Oct 25, 2007 12:06 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Re: Baseball America grades the 2007 draft
I know, it's all so strange that he's included on that list. I'm thinking typo, not just because of Fairley being a HS player and not yet played pro ball, but because there are two "College" lists under that category.
Not boring: Emmanuel Burriss: Not fascist: SF Dugout. Not boring nor fascist: CLE winning the World Series.

by BaronVonCurrentEvents on Oct 25, 2007 12:37 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Baseball America grades the 2007 draft
I suspect that category was supposed to be "best athlete" or something. Looks like a typo.

by Dan from NM on Oct 25, 2007 4:14 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Baseball America grades the 2007 draft
They fixed the typo, and it is "most athletic." That makes more sense!
Not boring: Emmanuel Burriss: Not fascist: SF Dugout. Not boring nor fascist: CLE winning the World Series.

by BaronVonCurrentEvents on Oct 26, 2007 9:13 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

The Nats --- WTF
According to BA, the best draft was had by the Nats, led by their pick of Detwiler.  

Wow.  I hope BA shares some of what they're having with us.  The only really nice looking pick was Michael Burgess in the Supp Round. And Detwiler was one of the worst picks in the first round which cancels out any genius on the Burgess pick.  

I'm not saying our draft was the best -- but it was certainly better than Washington's.  

Zealously advocating for Nate the Great since 2007.

by orangeandblackattack on Oct 26, 2007 9:08 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: The Nats --- WTF
Why the hate for Detwiler. In many ways he was to the Nats what a lot of folks here wanted in a Beau Mills pick for us: a college guy who could move fast through a system desperate for pitching help. I actually saw his major league debut and if nothing else he didn't look overwhelmed out there. I'd assume he'll be on the Nats 25 man coming out of ST next year which is what they wanted out of tha pick.

Other than there's probably some credit being extended to the Nats because Rizzo has a track record of knowing what he's doing with both the Dbacks and Rox.

My boy ain't fat, he's just big boned. Big bat, too.

by Roger on Oct 26, 2007 10:12 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: The Nats --- WTF
I wouldn't say hate.  I've never met Detwiler.  But so far he was tattooed in A+ ball to the tune of 11+ H/9, BB/9 over 3 and a K/9 under 6 (we all remember what Timmy did at the same level -- in a hitter's league) Dangerous mechanics according to Chad, anyway.  And his ceiling is lower than pitchers picked after him.    

Granted the Nats were picking for need.  But that's kind of a cardinal sin when it comes to the Baseball draft.  

Zealously advocating for Nate the Great since 2007.

by orangeandblackattack on Oct 26, 2007 11:17 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: The Nats --- WTF
I wholeheartedly agree with you.  Detweiler was an abhorrent pick, he's gotta be one of the highest risks in that draft.  the only safe thing to do with him was revamp his mechanics.  

The need they should have picked for was just good pitching, not just a fast riser.  Dumb pick by the Nats and I actually didn't like burgess all that much, though where they got him was a bit of a steal.

Pedro Feliz: Marginally better this year.

by SloIsLonelyForTheOrange on Oct 28, 2007 7:35 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Baseball America grades the 2007 draft
I like the 4 ranking.

I guess BA is assuming that Alderson will stay a reliever? I think thats the only way you could project such a quick path to the majors for him.

by xanthan on Oct 25, 2007 12:07 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Re: Baseball America grades the 2007 draft
I think it's his control that's driving the ranking, not whether he starts or relieves.

Man, I hope the control is for real. Can you imagine a Giants' pitching prospect throwing strike after strike? Rapture....

by Grant on Oct 25, 2007 1:11 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Baseball America grades the 2007 draft
Oh, no worries. We'll beat that out of him in no time.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.

by jponry on Oct 25, 2007 1:16 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Baseball America grades the 2007 draft
The control is a huge factor but he's still a HS pitcher that has a long ways to travel. I hope the Giants try and stick with him as a starter. I don't really like drafting relievers in the 1st round.

I'm really excited about our new drafts. The minor league season next year might be more exciting than the major leagues.

by xanthan on Oct 25, 2007 1:30 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Baseball America grades the 2007 draft
I'm pretty sure might be can be replaced with will be.  

by KCE on Oct 25, 2007 1:33 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

minor league more exciting than the majors
..and "will be" should be replaced with "has been."
The SF Giants: agressively promoting young talent since 2008.

by Lyle on Oct 25, 2007 6:07 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Baseball America grades the 2007 draft
The control is a huge factor but he's still a HS pitcher that has a long ways to travel.

BA said he was closest out of all of the high school draftees -- not draftees in general. All HS draftees have a long ways to travel.

So, like, 2009 is what I'm expecting. After a September, 2008 call-up, of course.

by Grant on Oct 25, 2007 1:33 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Baseball America grades the 2007 draft
Good point, I just get the feeling BA is looking at Alderson as if he were a reliever? That could be unfounded on my part but I think that might be the way they view. There's a mixed opinion on if he'll turn out as a starter or reliever.

by xanthan on Oct 25, 2007 1:38 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Baseball America grades the 2007 draft
Forgot to add, how can a guy without a starting windup motion be the fastest mover out of the high school kids? He's going to need to learn how to pitch in a way that's completely new to him.

Alderson has a solid foundation but he's going to need some tweaking, like every high schooler but the pitching motion stuff could take a lot of experimentation.

by xanthan on Oct 25, 2007 1:43 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Baseball America grades the 2007 draft
Somebody posted something the other day indicating that he has learned a windup and seems to be doing well with it. Very encouraging news.

I wonder why Alderson is the one who keeps getting pigeonholed as a future reliever, when Bumgarner is the one who everyone says only has one pitch.

by Evan on Oct 25, 2007 1:49 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Baseball America grades the 2007 draft
Yeah, I read the same post, Evan.

I think it's mostly because he pitched exclusively from the stretch in high school.

by xanthan on Oct 25, 2007 2:10 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Stretch
A recent write up on the Giants website said that Alderson was working from a windup in Instructional League.  In fact, they said he hardly used the stretch at all because he allowed so few baserunners!  It also said the Giants still see him as a starter.

by DrBGiantsfan on Oct 25, 2007 3:42 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Baseball America grades the 2007 draft
I think he knew how to pitch from the windup in high school; he just chose not to in games because he was more comfortable out of the stretch.

by Dan from NM on Oct 25, 2007 4:16 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Baseball America grades the 2007 draft
He was actually required to pitch out of the stretch exclusively, I believe.

If his delivery out of the stretch is so odd, I wonder what it looks like from the windup . . .

Brian Anderson: I can has spot in Fresno 'pen?

by Anticon23 on Oct 25, 2007 5:48 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Baseball America grades the 2007 draft
Alderson was required by his coach to pitch out of the stretch prior to his senior year.  As a senior, he pitched from the stretch by choice.

by sharksrog on Oct 25, 2007 7:08 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Baseball America grades the 2007 draft
He's a Giants pitcher; he'll only have to use the windup for one batter per inning anyway.
SJ Giants, 2007 Cal League champs! Couldn't have done it without the All-Father.

by EliminateMe on Oct 25, 2007 5:12 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Windup?
Where it written that a pitcher has to be able to pitch out of the windup?

I've been wondering this and watching various pitchers. Some pitchers' windups are very muted and almost look like their pitching out of the stretch.

I asked Tom House about it and he said no power is generated from the windup; that it basically gets you to the same starting point (raised leg) where the power starts getting generated.  He does most of his teaching from the stretch, where less moving parts mean less can go wrong, and advises pitching from the windup only if it feels more comfortable.

by Goofus on Oct 26, 2007 12:55 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Windup?
I believe it's printed in the owner's manual which came with your body. You're older than me, though, so may yours is out of date...
Fool me seven times, shame on you. Fool me eight or more times, shame on me.

by Bhaakon on Oct 26, 2007 8:48 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Windup?
it's a little less awkward to generate the same amount of momentum from the windup as it is the stretch, but i kind of agree with you here.
Pedro Feliz: Marginally better this year.

by SloIsLonelyForTheOrange on Oct 28, 2007 7:38 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Baseball America grades the 2007 draft
I'm actually a little disappointed that BA ranked the Giants draft only #4.  I realize that is light years ahead of where it was at least until 2006 (and ahead even then), but with six choices in the top 51, shouldn't the Giants have been #1?

I don't subscribe to BA, but I'm curious to know where BA ranked the Tigers' draft.  Detroit didn't pick until #26 as I recall, but they took what most believed to be the second-best pitcher in the draft, Rick Porcello.  Rick, who appeared to me to have this year's version of what I'll call Tim Lincecum (very good) mechanics (although in truth, Rick's mechanics might actually be closer to Matt Cain's), dropped that far because of signabilty issues.

The Tigers paid $7 million to wrap Porcello up for three or four years, but if I don't miss my guess, they pulled off a coup.  Of course, pitchers are usually health gambles, but for a commitment of $7 million the Tigers may have gotten close to a decade of control of a pitcher who might earn half a billion dollars before his career is over.

by sharksrog on Oct 25, 2007 7:20 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Re: Baseball America grades the 2007 draft
Tigers are third. I will say no more but encourage you to subscribe.

by Dan from NM on Oct 25, 2007 7:41 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Baseball America grades the 2007 draft
I probably SHOULD subscribe, but I already spend hundreds of dollars each year on baseball publications.  How much IS a subscription to BA?

My point was that the Giants had not one but TWO picks ahead of the Tigers at #26.  I'm not sure if the Tigers had any extra picks or not, but they certainly didn't approach the Giants' six picks in the top 51.  Yet the Tigers were ranked just ahead of the Giants -- primarly because they drafted Rick Porcello.  The Giants passed on Rick not once, but twice.

Now, I'm hoping that BOTH Mad Bum and the Second Tim turn out to be better than Porcello.  Certainly they signed for a lot less together than Rick did.

But I think the Tigers got a good deal with Porcello -- even at $7 million.  And I think that given the Giants outlook for 2008 and the money they have to spend with several players coming off the dole, the Giants should have been a bit more visionary and been willing to spend the big bucks on a stud like Porcello, who would have been considered a steal at #22, just as he was considered an even bigger coup at #26.

by sharksrog on Oct 26, 2007 2:06 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Baseball America grades the 2007 draft
Here's a shocker...

The team that BA gave the highest rated drafted seven 18 year old in their first 10 picks (albeit, they were a team with five picks in the top 70).

I'd like to have seen the reasoning behind some of these choices, though it's hard to argue too much with the the top four teams.

SFDugout.com - Returning Offseason 2007

by BruteSentiment on Oct 25, 2007 7:52 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Baseball America grades the 2007 draft
I find it funny that the Tigers probably spent more on signing one player than the Giants spent on their whole draft -- and we had three picks in the first round.  

4th sounds pretty good to me.  I'm still not very excited about Mad Bum and Jackson Williams was clearly an overdraft.  

Zealously advocating for Nate the Great since 2007.

by orangeandblackattack on Oct 26, 2007 8:47 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Baseball America grades the 2007 draft
You make a good point that the Giants may have gotten more value for their dollar than did the Tigers. I guess my feeling is that the Giants need to build from within and should have kept their budget flexible enough for them to go after high-priced talent if they felt strongly about the potential of that talent.

By ridding themselves of Matt Morris at the trade deadline, the Giants saved nearly twice as much money as was paid to Rick Porcello by the Tigers.

by sharksrog on Oct 26, 2007 1:44 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Baseball America grades the 2007 draft
We had 6 of the first 51 picks, and even after nabbing the almost-sure-thing-players we got more steals like D'Alessio and Otero.  How the hell are we ranked 4th best overall?  We should be at least 2nd...

by boonitez on Oct 25, 2007 9:38 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Re: Baseball America grades the 2007 draft
Not sure why the Giants aren't ranked at least as high as second, but with six picks in the first 51 overall, shouldn't they have been unequivocally first if they had indeed maxed out their drafting position?

I suggested the Giants should have Porcello with pick #22 and the Texas outfielder Russell with their fifth or sixth picks (#43 and #51).  Carlos Gomez of Baseball Analysts or Baseball Think Factory or Hardball Times or whomever he writes for agreed that if the Giants had done so, they would have essentially run away with first place overall.

Again, I'm hoping the picks the Giants actually made are even better than the ones I suggested.  We'll know five or ten years down the road.

by sharksrog on Oct 26, 2007 2:10 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Baseball America grades the 2007 draft
I love what I"ve seen of Alderson so far and the early reports on Bumgarner are encouraging too.  Maybe Porcello has a chance to be a HOF caliber pitcher.  I'm very leery of putting all our eggs in one basket, espcially in a HS pitcher.  IMO, there's a better chance that one out of Bumgarner or Alderson becomes a HOF caliber pitcher than for Porcello alone.  Add in Fairley, Noonan and Culberson and I think you could make a strong case for the Giants having the best draft and a far better use of bonus money than sinkin it all into one HS pitcher, no matter how good he is.  

by DrBGiantsfan on Oct 26, 2007 7:48 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Baseball America grades the 2007 draft
I'm not sure that I agree with you that there is a better chance of either Mad Bum of Timmy Two making the Hall of Fame than Porcello, but I will concur that there is a better chance of two of them making it on the Giants' behalf.  :)

I'm hoping, of course, that BOTH make it -- and Wendell Fairley and maybe Nick Noonan too!

But my point is that instead of having what has been ranked anywhere from the best to fourth-best draft with their six picks in the top 51, they likely could have been a runaway pick as the consensus pick for best overall had they drafted Portello and the outfielder Russell.

True, they would have had to spend several million more, but would you rather they spend the extra money on potential superstars and stars, or on Barry Zito?  My point is that it appears the Giants are thinking like a middle-of-the-pack team (spending huge bucks on a good but not great player) instead of thinking like a future World Champion by risking that money on young players who could become superstars or stars.

by sharksrog on Oct 26, 2007 1:49 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Opinion
I don't argue that drafting Porcello would have made it a better draft for the Giants, but I woudn't trade our 3 #1's for one of him.  For David Price?  Maybe.  Price could well be dominating in the majors before the end of 2008.  I've read a lot about this draft and I"ve watched video of most of the highly rated HS pitchers.  Porcello is good, perhaps the best of the bunch, but I don't see him has being on a different quantum level of talent.

The important thing to remember about these grades is they are just an opinion and doesn't really count for anything.  The goal is to eventually look back on 2007 as a great draft which I see as a good possibilty.

by DrBGiantsfan on Oct 26, 2007 3:15 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Addendum
I should have said that drafting Porcello would have made the Giants draft look better on paper, not necessarily made it better in reality.

by DrBGiantsfan on Oct 26, 2007 3:16 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Addendum
I'd rather have Bumgarner and Alderson instead of just Porcello. We'll see if that opinion lasts.

by Grant on Oct 26, 2007 5:07 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Addendum
I disagree.  Porcello had excellent mechanics, great stuff and good velocity (93-97 on the fastball).  Alderson does some pretty funky, sketch stuff with his arm that I don't really like.  Bumgarner has no secondary pitches, which i'll give him the benefit of the doubt that they will develop; however, we just can't be sure they're going to be good, great or near Porcello's stuff.  I think their risk outweighs the inherent risk in just having one pitcher who might fall, especially considering Porcello's upsides in light of his positives.

Actually, I would have been happier if we had nabbed a hitter instead of Bumgarner.

Pedro Feliz: Marginally better this year.

by SloIsLonelyForTheOrange on Oct 28, 2007 8:31 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Addendum
I've made my piece with their taking a HS pitcher instead of a HS hitter. Their success rate with the latter has been abysmal for the past 25 years. After  Mills, there really wasn't another college hitter worth getting at #10. If they didn't like Mills, they didn't like Mills. And considering the L&C connection, they must have really not liked Mills.

I have a Lincecum-like fascination with Alderson, so I'm probably biased. Funky delivery + otherworldly control = fascination.

by Grant on Oct 29, 2007 9:04 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Addendum
oh, dude, i love alderson with all my heart.  He's 6'7, is that awkward and still manages to walk like 2 guys per year.  I'm concerned more about Bumgarner.  He has not ever thrown a breaking ball; and, though he has excellent mechanics, he's a huge risk in my mind.  

The success rate thing I agree with, but high school pitchers don't exactly fair too well either.  And they get hurt.

I would have preferred Jason heyward to either, though there were a ton of people hatin' on him too.

Pedro Feliz: Marginally better this year.

by SloIsLonelyForTheOrange on Oct 29, 2007 5:29 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Addendum
The original diary post made a good point that you need to look deeper than the first round to grade a draft.  The Giants have done well lately finding good prospects late in the draft.  This year, in addition to D'Alessio and Otero, there's a whole bunch of very interesting college pitchers and even a few hitters:  Chance Corgan, TJ Brewer, Craig Clark, Steve Edlefsen, Tim Egart, Shane Jordan, Chad Rothford, Brock Bond, Davis all made good initial impressions.  It wouldn't take many of those eventually turning into useful players for this to be one of the great drafts of all time.

by DrBGiantsfan on Oct 26, 2007 7:53 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Addendum
I'll never get used to the uncertainty of the MLB draft. If the Giants hit on Alderson, Noonan, and two from that list of names, this becomes a legendary draft. An 8% success rate = legendary. That will always seem weird.

by Grant on Oct 26, 2007 1:04 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Addendum
Just think of MadBum and Alderson both work out!  Woot! 2/5 of a rotation in the same draft!

by Goofus on Oct 26, 2007 1:09 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Addendum
oh man, I really really liked corgan the minute they drafted him.  I think he has some arm action troubles that could be remedied, but he looked like a pretty good grab in the fifth round.
Pedro Feliz: Marginally better this year.

by SloIsLonelyForTheOrange on Oct 28, 2007 8:32 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Baseball America grades the 2007 draft
let's not forget that this is Baseball America's opinion, and they're not necessarily right. Didn't Carlos Gomez list us as number one?? Not only that, but number four in the major leagues is pretty damn good. I wish our big league team was the fourth best!! I understand your point about having six picks in the top 51, but nine teams picked ahead of us in the draft, so you could make the case that being ranked anything higher than number ten is excellent.
Joe Simpson:"I was told by a player that the hardest throwers he saw all year were Ubaldo Jimenez and RANDY MESSENGER"

by rxmeister on Oct 26, 2007 10:23 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Baseball America grades the 2007 draft
Carlos Gomez DID pick the Giants as having the best draft overall.  He also agreed right here with me that had the Giants chosen Porcello with their second pick and Russell with either their fifth or sixth picks, he would have picked them as the runaway #1.

The Giants draft appears to be very good.  I think they had a chance to make it their best draft EVER.  It still could be, but I don't think their chances are nearly as good by going the way they went compared to the way I suggested.

I hope to be wrong.

by sharksrog on Oct 26, 2007 1:52 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Baseball America grades the 2007 draft
I'd be interested in why you think Rick Porcello is so good, other than what you have read from people like Gomez and BP. I'm going to go out on a limb and say you've never seen any of these guys pitch.
Joe Simpson:"I was told by a player that the hardest throwers he saw all year were Ubaldo Jimenez and RANDY MESSENGER"

by rxmeister on Oct 27, 2007 7:01 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Baseball America grades the 2007 draft
I think the fact that a major league team with lots of experienced scouts thought he was worth 7.5 million is a pretty definitive statement that Porcello was the second best pitcher in the draft.  
Zealously advocating for Nate the Great since 2007.

by orangeandblackattack on Oct 27, 2007 10:08 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Baseball America grades the 2007 draft
Ryan Leaf is on the phone. He doesn't want to talk to you, but I told him he has to.

(j/k, I wish I'd had a baseball comp for that joke, but I've been following the NFL draft a heck of a lot longer than I've been following the MLB draft. That said, I pretty much agree with your statement. There isobviously some veeeerrrry good reason why the kid doesn't suck f he's going to get that tretment)

Dave Righetti: You Know You Want It. / Also, my blog. For writers.

by howtheyscored on Oct 27, 2007 11:08 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Baseball America grades the 2007 draft
For once, I can say, "Thanks Scott Boras" ?

That just feels weird.

by xanthan on Oct 27, 2007 3:32 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Baseball America grades the 2007 draft
When I saw a video of Rick Porcello, I loved his mechanics, Mark.

When I get into statistics, you mock me, and I doubt it will be any different when I say I like a guy's mechanics.

Will Rick turn out to be good?  We'll need to wait a while to find out.  He's only a high schooler.  But his mechanics lead me to believe that he has a chance to be very good and also to stay healthy.

If I were basing my evaluation solely on statistics, it is hard to beat the K/BB ratios of both Mad Bum and Timmy Two.

Since Porcello is in the American League, I guess it would be a nice scenario if all THREE worked out well.  I worry more about the health of Mad Bum and Timmy Two than about Porcello's though.

Mechanically, I really like both Fairley and Noonan.  Their swings seem pretty darn sweet.

by sharksrog on Oct 27, 2007 5:24 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Baseball America grades the 2007 draft
Porcello will get here first because he's more advanced, but I think when all is said and done, we will be glad we picked Bumgarner. He's a lefty and from what I've heard and read, he throws harder than Porcello. Certainly the difference in price in signing the two pretty much makes it a no brainer. It's not your money, Rog, it's the Giants. Do you really think Porcello is five or six million dollars better than Bumgarner or Alderson?? I think even if Porcello turns out to be better, he's not THAT much better where the price would be justified.
Joe Simpson:"I was told by a player that the hardest throwers he saw all year were Ubaldo Jimenez and RANDY MESSENGER"

by rxmeister on Oct 28, 2007 10:38 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Baseball America grades the 2007 draft
Honestly, for a 9 or so year investment is five or six million dollars alot? Think about it, they've paid Bonds something like $150 million dollars in his time with the Giants (and did well in doing so).  The amount paid to an 18 year old seems like a lot because of the strong chance that any draftee won't make it, but it's still a pretty cheap source of talent acquisition.  I believe I read that all 30 teams this year spent in the range of $45-50 million on the draft. And that money wraps up talent for years virtually for free.  Their combined 2007 major league payrolls on the other hand were nearly 2.5 billion. In that context, how much is the extra $6 mil Porcello's getting?
My boy ain't fat, he's just big boned. Big bat, too.

by Roger on Oct 28, 2007 12:19 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Baseball America grades the 2007 draft
But slight differences among high-school pitchers become very big differences as they grow and develop. Take a look at the group of high-school pitchers taken in the first round in 1999:

Josh Beckett (at #2)
Josh Girdley
Bobby Bradley
Brett Myers
Ty Howington
Jason Stumm
Richard Stahl
Gerik Baxter

Beckett was the Porcello of that draft: everyone's choice as the best high-school pitcher, and demanding a huge contract to sign. I don't think the Marlins regret ponying up the money.

by Evan on Oct 28, 2007 2:51 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Baseball America grades the 2007 draft
And for every Josh Beckett, you could point to 2 or 3 "can't miss" top 5 choices who were busts.  Matt Cain was drafted in the 20's, Tim Lincecum at #10.  Personally I'd rather have two chances for a success than 1.

by DrBGiantsfan on Oct 28, 2007 6:35 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Baseball America grades the 2007 draft
Roger's point is a valid one, but only holds up if Porcello becomes a star and Bumgarner and Alderson are stiffs. And even then, you can't say for sure what the Giants were thinking there. They might have legitimately thought that the kids they picked were better.
BRING ME ALEX RODRIGUEZ!!

by rxmeister on Oct 29, 2007 7:41 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Baseball America grades the 2007 draft
But isn't it kind of unusual to have a polished, unlimited-ceiling, consensus-best-HS-pitcher-in-the-draft like Beckett or Porcello? I can't remember any between those two, though admittedly I don't follow the draft all that closely. Sure, there are scary examples like Todd Van Poppel and Brien Taylor to look back upon, but I suspect the failure rate among the very best HS pitchers is significantly lower than among the merely great HS pitchers, which would justify the huge bonuses for the best ones.

Anyway, if somehow I got to choose, yes, I'd rather have Bumgarner and Alderson than just Porcello. But that was never a real choice -- rather, it was between (a) Porcello and Alderson, or (b) Bumgarner, Alderson, and an extra $5 million to spend elsewhere. Given that choice, I'd take (a). Or, in my dream first round, Heyward at #10, Porcello at #22, and Alderson (hopefully) at #29.

by Evan on Oct 29, 2007 9:51 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Baseball America grades the 2007 draft
Actually I like Fairley alot, too. My dream based on availability would have been Heyward at 10, Porcello at 22, and Fairley at 29.
My boy ain't fat, he's just big boned. Big bat, too.

by Roger on Oct 29, 2007 1:35 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Choice?
I'm not sure I understand why you think that's the choice.  I think it's more likely that if the Giants had drafted Porcello, knowing they would have to pony up $6 M+ to keep him from going to UNC, we would have ended up with him plus 5 low ceiling college players like Williams.

by DrBGiantsfan on Oct 29, 2007 9:52 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Choice?
I think the poster was saying that drafting Rick Porcello wouldn't have disqualified the Giants from drafting the other players they did (or for substituting the Texas outfielder Russell for their fifth or sixth choices).

True, the Giants may not have even budgeted enough money for Porcello, let alone the players who would have followed him.  But I think not budgeting heavily for the draft is being penny-wise and pound-foolish.

Then again, the Giants have had great success with Sabean's drafts, so I guess they know what they're doing.  :)

by sharksrog on Oct 30, 2007 12:01 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Baseball America grades the 2007 draft
I think I remember Keith Law saying he thought the Giants had the best draft also.

...if that means anything to anyone here.

Fairley odd parent to Wendell...

by Mark carry on on Oct 26, 2007 2:09 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Baseball America grades the 2007 draft
I respect Keith Law's opinion.
there is no pain greater than being behind the Rockies in the standings

by oldjacket on Oct 26, 2007 3:23 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Baseball America grades the 2007 draft
...and I respect yours. Ergo, I respect Keith Law's opinion too.

by Goofus on Oct 26, 2007 4:15 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Baseball America grades the 2007 draft
Hopefully when we look back in a couple years and they will be fielding a young exciting team (competitive), we can thank this draft.  They also will be coming up the same time as our savior Big V.  Havent been this excited about the farm system in a long time.  Crossing fingers!

by krazybalr on Oct 26, 2007 8:57 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Re: Baseball America grades the 2007 draft
I DO think there is a fine chance of what you're hoping for actually coming true.  My point was that I feel the Giants could have done even better.

And that can be the difference being a contender or not, between being a true contender compared to a marginal one, or between being a contender and a future World Champion.

by sharksrog on Oct 26, 2007 1:53 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Baseball America grades the 2007 draft
True.  If we'd taken Porcello instead of MadBum and any number of people instead of Jackson Williams it would have been an even better draft.  On the other hand there is something wrong on prinicple with paying a high school draft pick 7.5 million no matter how good he is.  Do that and you know everyone else you draft is going to expect more as well.  

So I'm willing to give the Giants a mulligan on Porcello.  It could have left Alderson wanting 2.5 and Fairley 2.0 and then the whole draft is falling apart.  Not to mention putting a high schooler on the 40 man.    

However Jackson Williams was not a good pick.  There was still much better talent on the board.  

Zealously advocating for Nate the Great since 2007.

by orangeandblackattack on Oct 26, 2007 10:50 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Baseball America grades the 2007 draft
Williams' defense behind the plate and his leadership are valuable, IMO.

There was better talent available, sure, but I think labeling him as being a bad pick is wrong.

Brian Anderson: I can has spot in Fresno 'pen?

by Anticon23 on Oct 26, 2007 11:56 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Baseball America grades the 2007 draft
It's a bad pick if he would have been available in later rounds.

Would he have been? Probably, yes.

Fool me seven times, shame on you. Fool me eight or more times, shame on me.

by Bhaakon on Oct 27, 2007 12:34 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Baseball America grades the 2007 draft
How much leadership are they going to need in A ball the next few years?
My boy ain't fat, he's just big boned. Big bat, too.

by Roger on Oct 27, 2007 9:20 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Baseball America grades the 2007 draft
If we had taken Porcello at #10 and then next 5 picks stayed the same, yes, it would have been a better draft, but only marginally better.  On the other hand, if we had taken Porcello at #10 and then drafted 5 players of the Jackson Williams ilk to save money, then it would be a much worse draft.

by DrBGiantsfan on Oct 27, 2007 1:34 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Baseball America grades the 2007 draft
I still think we're going to regret not taking Heyward more than Porcello.

by Evan on Oct 27, 2007 4:47 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Baseball America grades the 2007 draft
I don't think there is anything wrong with paying a top prospect $7.5 million.  I realize one can make the point that people should be paid for performance, not for potential -- but in a sense a drafted player IS being paid for his performance, even though that performance was in high school or college.

Let's look at Porcello -- or Tim Lincecum or Phil Hughes or any of several other very fine young pitchers.  Yes, $7.5 million is lot of money to pay for an unproven player.  But if Rick realizes his potential, he could wind up making 50 to 100 times that much over a long career.  By drafting Porcello, the Tigers lock up Porcello for something like nine years -- six of them at the major-league level.

During those six major-league years, they will perhaps pay Rick as much money as they would pay a veteran great pitcher in little more than a single season.

So if Porcello turns out to be great, the Tigers got a huge bargain -- especially if they can re-sign him without breaking the bank once he becomes a free agent.  If he turns out to be good, they probably still haven't overpaid.  If he turns out to be so-so, they've overpaid somewhat.  And obviously if he turns out to be a stiff, they've wasted $7.5 million.

I personally think they took a darn good risk.  Stars are what win championships.  True, they can't do it alone, but it is darn hard to win a championship without at least a couple of them -- and preferably one or two superstars and three or four other stars.

If a team sees in Rick Porcello a good chance of stardom or even superstardom, I don't think $7.5 million is too much to risk.

Heck, Rick has a lot better chance of being a superstar pitcher than Barry Zito does, and his $7.5 million pales in comparison to the $126 million the Giants are paying Barry.

Rick is a far bigger risk than Barry, but he also has a much higher upside at this point.  Porcello could become what Zito WAS.  Barry is highly unlikely to ever regain that.

$126 million is 17 times $7.5 million.  Did the Giants get 17 times as much potential value when they signed Zito as the Tigers got when they signed?

The Giants got a product that is much safer, they got a product that is more immediate.  But did they truly get 17 times the value?

I didn't like the signing of Zito, and I don't like their not taking a risk on Porcello.

Perhaps the Giants will prove that by taking Alderson instead of Rick, they knew precisely what they were doing.  I hope that is the case.

But I can almost assure you that the Tigers were quite happy when everyone before them passed on Porcello.  Just as the Giants were no doubt delighted when nine teams ahead of San Francisco passed on Tim Lincecum.

IMO Brian Sabean overvalues mediocre and good players in comparison with how he values very good and great players.  Good players help, and mediocre players are better than poor ones.  But it is stars and superstars who usually win championships.

Those stars and superstars need a supporting cast, but they carry the show.  A team made up of supporting cast members isn't going to carry the show very often.

I remember the Warriors of the mid 80's.  I felt they had the best bench in the league.  Unfortunately, much of it was starting, and the Warriors weren't good at all.

The Giants without Barry Bonds are a much more balanced offensive team.  Last season they were a one-man show.  This year they have great balance.  The show is gone.  The balance is excellent.  Only the hitting talent is missing.  Only.

by sharksrog on Oct 27, 2007 5:42 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Baseball America grades the 2007 draft
I actually agree with that analysis.  If the Giants had just one first round draft pick and were picking in the same slot as the Tigers and Porcello was avalable, I'd say take him.  He's a bargain.  At #10, I'm not so sure.  Depends on what you do with the money saved.  If it allows another international signing of Big V magnitude, then Bumgarner is close enough that you take the less expensive player.  If the alternative to to spend on another Ryan Klesko or two, then you draft Porcello and pay the difference.

As it was, I would rather have Bumgarner, Alderson, Fairley, Noonan and Culberson than Porcello plus 5 college draftees like Jackson Williams.

by DrBGiantsfan on Oct 27, 2007 8:47 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Baseball America grades the 2007 draft

Another example of what you are saying is from a few drafts ago.  Who made the better use of their bonus money, Arizona with Stephen Drew or San Diego with Matt Bush?  

The difference for the Giants is I don't think the gap between Bumgarner or Alderson and Porcello is nearly as great as the difference between Drew and Bush.

by DrBGiantsfan on Oct 27, 2007 8:57 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Baseball America grades the 2007 draft
You say there is something wrong with paying $7.5 million for a high school player.

I say that if you want to be a champion and have limited resources for doing so, you need to find highly-productive ways to spend your money.

I'm saying that if Porcello turns out to be as good as I think he will, NOT to pay him $7.5 million would be wrong.  If he becomes a great pitcher, that $7.5 million could become 1% or 2% of the money he makes over his full career.

And the $7.5 million gives the team paying it a chance to wrap up six years of Porcello's major league career.  If Rick goes on to have a very productive 15-year career in the majors, that is 40% of his major-league career he would be playing for the Tigers -- at low salary rates.

I think the Giants had a wonderful opportunity to start thinking more creatively with the 2007 draft.  I think they fared well in the draft.  But with more creative thinking, I think it is possible they could have had one of the best drafts EVER.

Hey, maybe they still WILL (have had one of the best drafts ever in 2007).  I'm all for it!

by sharksrog on Oct 30, 2007 12:07 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Baseball America grades the 2007 draft
Eh, this debate can be better rehashed at a later time.

I'll leave it at...I think this is a draft that will be viewed as underappreciated in four years time.  And I it could be an awesome draft and the undisputed best in a year, but someone will always find a 'miss' that would've made it better.

Time for a little follow-up:

Not shockingly, D'Alessio got a lot of play in the Giants-only team report: Best Pro Debut and Best Late Round pick.  D'Alessio also was named as Best Power Hitter, but they noted Fairley (who was the Best Athlete and Fastest Runner) has the potential to surpass him.

Noonan: Best Pure Hitter (Shocker).

Best Defensive Player: Jackson Williams and his 43% rate of catching basestealers, and mentions about his blocks, calling games and leadership of a pitching staff, with a mention to Charlie Culberson.

Bumgarner got 'Best Fastball but Alderson was also mentioned.  Alderson got Best Secondary Pitch.

Dan Otero and Steve Edlefsen also got good mentions as late-round picks.

For 'The One Who Got Away' (better known as players who went unsigned), BA notes the Giants signed the first 29 players they picked, implying almost no one did.  The player noted was Tyler Ladendorf, who had already turned down a six-figure deal from the Yankees.

SFDugout.com - Returning Offseason 2007

by BruteSentiment on Oct 30, 2007 1:08 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

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