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Interview with Kevin Goldstein

After seeing the lengthy discussion on this diary and the fanboy fawning of this post, Kevin Goldstein from Baseball Prospectus graciously offered to answer any additional questions about San Francisco prospects. I e-mailed some of the prospect mavens here for help with the questions, and Steve S. and Brute Sentiment contributed some great questions. Thanks to everyone for their help, and thanks to Kevin for taking time out of his hectic schedule to do this.

Remember: Subscribe to Baseball Prospectus for one year, and receive a McCovey Chronicles membership for free. Free!

McCovey Chronicles:When ranking prospects, how do you balance the five-tool, high-ceiling types with the one- or two-tool types who are already close to impacting a major-league roster at something less than an All-Star level?

Kevin Goldstein: That's kind of the secret sauce in many ways. Ranking prospect combines two things - predicting a player's ultimate ceiling and crossing that with a players chances of actually reaching that ceiling. It's really different for every guy and you have to develop a feel for it really. That said, scouting a player development is really not in any way about creating replacement-level players. Those types of talents are still pretty affordable on the open market. It's about finding impact talent that can make that impact on the big league level before being arbitration/free agent eligible.

McC: I kind of skimmed that answer looking for Kevin Frandsen's name. Even if his ceiling is somewhere between Ron Belliard and Mike Lansing, wouldn't that still be a valuable player to have for the MLB minimum? How close was he to the list?

KG: He was as close as one could get. If I Spinal Tapped the list and went to 11, Frandsen would be there.  He's a nice lilttle hitter, and his makeup is off the charts, but at the same time, he really has no secondary skills at all, so he needs to hit .300 to be an everyday player, and I don't see it. I think he'll have a career as a bench player/occasional starter - which goes back to my last answer.

McC: Was Billy Sadler's AFL performance what put him above Brian Wilson?

KG: Well, It certainly helped, but it's not the sole reason. I really like his stuff, because when I talk to scouts, they tend to really like his stuff. I just see him becoming a late-inning reliever more than I see Wilson there.

McC: The Sharlon Schoop ranking was probably the most surprising to me. Was it personal observation or a particular opinion among those you talked to that put him so high?

KG: Personal observation is difficult - I'm really not capable of seeing everyone, obviously. For the most part I'm trying to talk to scouts and people within the game nearly every day. One person saw Schoop in the AFL and another saw him in instructs and both walked away very impressed.

McC: How much emphasis do you put on a prospect repeating a level?

KG: Usually quite a bit - that's USUALLY a bad thing unless there's some obvious mitigating factor revolving around injury or age.

McC: The "Big Picture"-feature at the end of your list helped make a distinction between lackluster farm systems and farm systems that were hurt because top prospects graduated. If the list were extended to 27-year-olds, where would players like Noah Lowry, Todd Linden, Brad Hennessey, and Kevin Correia rank in the big picture for the Giants?

KG: That is a very good question, and my honest answer is I DON'T KNOW. I haven't done enough research or talking to people about them to accurately ranking them. Interestingly enough, I was personally surprised when I talked to other people about the Giants system and found that there are some people out there who still have hope for Todd Linden.

McC: The success story is Miguel Cabrera; the horror story is Jackson Melian. How does Angel Villalona stack up with other international bonus babies at the same age?

KG Um, right there with both? That's the good and bad news, obviously. It seems pretty clear that Villalona was the best of the international free agents this year, but yes, he's 16, so there's obvious risk involved.  

McC: With Schoop and Emmanuel Burriss, the Giants have some interesting and athletic middle infield prospects. But one year's athletic middle infield prospect can be next year's Marcus Sanders, who had one of the most disappointing seasons in the organization. What kind of season would it take for him to reappear on the top-ten list?

KG: A very big one.  I was personally never THAT high on him in the first place.   If I had did a SF top 10 last year, he would have been on it, but towards the bottom.  It's pretty clear at this point that he can't play on the left side of the infield, so right now he's a guy who can draw walks and run, and that's it.  

McC: What put Fred Lewis over Nate Schierholtz in the rankings?

KG: Versatility and the fact that while he doesn't have any overwhelming strengths in his game, he really has no weaknesses either. We're back to that balance thing. I think Schierholtz has a bit of a better chance at being a star, while Lewis has a much better chance at having a lengthy career - if that makes sense.

McC: I'm fascinated with the non-prospects who put up good numbers; call it Robbie Crabtree Sickness. So is there any room for growth for Brian Horwitz or Adam Cowart? Is there any hope for Horwitz to add some doubles power, or for Cowart to find a few feet on his fastball?

KG: Horwitz is a guy with some nice hitting skills, but he really doesn't have anything close to the power to be a corner outfielder in the big leagues. Cowart had such a great debut, but that's all about command and control, which Cowart has in bunches. He really doesn't have projection, and I wouldn't think of him as one of the top 25 prospects in the system. 82-85 mph fastballs don't get anyone into the big leagues.

McC: What do you know about Nick Pereria? He seemed to be on the Kevin Correia fast track for some reason, but was slapped around in AAA.

KG: He's very much like Cowart, at least in the sense that his success at San Jose was more about outstanding location than anything else. He does has a good slider, but his fastball is below average, which hurts his projection, as is the reason AAA hitters feasted on him. With some adjustments, he could become a reliever.

McC: It has been written in some McCovey Chronicles prospect threads that there really isn't much of a difference between the #4 prospect in the system and #34. How close is that tongue-in-cheek assessment?

KG: It's obviously aggrandizing reality a bit, but there's always some truth in something like that. I think there's more separation at the top, but there's probably six or seven guys you could make a perfectly good argument for being ranked in the 8-10 range, and probably 10-15 guys who I wouldn't put in their top 20, but others would. There's a bell curve from Excellent to Very Good, to Good to Average for sure.

McC: Tim Lincecum: Great prospect, or the greatest prospect? What are the odds he remains a starter?

KG: The fact that the Giants decided to leave him in the minors last year when he could have helped them out of the bullpen tells you they want to keep him as a starter. Great prospect, not the greatest, but when our book comes out, he'll rank VERY high in my Top 100.

Thanks again to Kevin. The stupid questions were the ones I came up with; the good ones were given to me. Keep that in mind.

0 recs  |  Comment 30 comments

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Re: Interview with Kevin Goldstein
Wow, legitmate reporting and an actual interview with someone at baseball prospectus?  The pressure we put on Grant with the donation/gift is really starting to pay off. Great job Grant, Steve, Brute. Now, back to football playoffs.
"I want to dip my balls in it." Louie

by MeSoKrabby on Jan 6, 2007 2:12 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Re: Interview with Kevin Goldstein
Did my part of the gift go through?  I never saw my account get debited.

Did anyone else have problems with that payment system?

by BruteSentiment on Jan 6, 2007 2:31 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

I enjoyed that!
Thanks Grant, good read.

by xanthan on Jan 6, 2007 2:25 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Re: Interview with Kevin Goldstein
Thanks for getting that interview, Grant.  It was very interesting and put a lot of things into context.

That said, I still disagree quite a bit about the Kevin Frandsen and Brian Wilson projections, and think there's a little bit of 'Things that make you go Hmm' when it comes to his explanation about why Frandsen didn't make the list....but Lewis did, and ranked relatively highly.  Lewis's inability to play center seems like a pretty big weakness to me, especially considering his offensive game is only slightly better suited for a corner outfielder than Horwitz's.

But then, I bet when I put up my next grouping of Giants prospects for debate, I'll get ripped and rankled for it.  And that's just when discussing where the pride of Sonoma State ended up on it.

by BruteSentiment on Jan 6, 2007 2:30 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Re: Interview with Kevin Goldstein
I don't think there is any question as to why Frandsen didn't make the list and Lewis did, as you say, ranking relatively highly. In fact, I think Mr. Goldstein made the reasoning quite clear -- Frandsen has not demonstrated any "secondary skills", while Lewis has.

by English Professor on Jan 6, 2007 3:16 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Interview with Kevin Goldstein
If Defense is not a 'secondary skill', then it's a primary skill.

And it's a strength of Frandsen and a weakness of Lewis, in my experience of watching both.

I guess it brings up the question of what are the secondary skills, and what are the gaps?

Speed: Obviously, this is Lewis' advantage, and by a wider margin, but Lewis has not taken full advantage of his skills.

OBP: Reality check time - Kevin Frandsen's minor league total is higher than Lewis' (.383 to .382).  I can hear the counter being "Oh, but Frandsen's is average supported, rather than Lewis' ability to draw walks."  Yea, well, a walk and a hit is the same in regards to how it counts in OBP.  And what's more, if you don't expect Frandsen's career .321 BA to hold up in the majors, how can you expect more of Lewis' .281?

Power: Reality check time - Frandsen's .453 minor league career slugging percentage is much, much higher than Lewis' .409.  And that one's not even close.  Yes, again, Frandsen's is batting average and doubles supported, but again, where is Lewis' going to go?  He hit 12 in a power friendly league, he won't match that in the majors.  Lewis might be more productive in triples, but he won't get many triples if he can't bat more than .250.

The thing about 'secondary skills' are that they don't mean too much if the primary skills aren't there.  And I just don't see Lewis having the ability to hit enough to be a major leaguer, nor the ability to play center field defensively to be worth anything.

He's Randy Winn without the power, at best.  And that's not a starter or a long career, in my mind.  Most people here don't seem to think Winn, with the power, should be a starter right now.

by BruteSentiment on Jan 6, 2007 3:32 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Frandsen vs Lewis
I pretty much agree with that and I like Fred Lewis.  Another factor to consider is that Frandsen is a middle infielder and thus has a lower offensive requirement to be an average major leaguer.  Lewis may still have a bit of upside, but has a lot farther to go to become an average major league OF than Frandsen does to become an average second baseman.

by DrBGiantsfan on Jan 6, 2007 4:12 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Interview with Kevin Goldstein
Here are their stats this past year from Fresno:
Lewis: .276/.375/.453 in 439 AB
Frand: .304/.358/.440 in 293 AB

Lewis is 1.5 years older than Frandsen.  It strikes me that if you want to compare their career minor league SLG, then it strikes me that you need to acknowledge that Lewis has spent a lot more time in more pitcher-friendly leagues on the East Coast.  How much would it help Lewis's career numbers if we did not include his Hagerstown numbers?  And I think you could exclude those in a reasonable comparison because Lewis spent three years in college and then went to the SAL while Frandsen spent four years in college ball and went straight to the Cal League.

One way in which the two players are very different is their strikeout rates.  Frandsen has perhaps the lowest in the organization.  Lewis remains among the highest.

Incidentally, the Randy Winn comparison is an interesting one.  His SLG never exceeded .425 until he reached triple-A as a 25-year-old.  Like Lewis, he spent a fair amount of his college experience playing a sport other than baseball.  Winn's career SLG in the the majors (.421) is better than his career SLG in the minors (.410).

by steve S on Jan 7, 2007 7:13 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

So......
Which is the better prospect, Frandsen or Lewis?

Frandsen is younger, makes better contact, and plays the infield.

Lewis' career numbers are dragged down by playing in the east, has a slightly better OBP/SLG% and might project to be Randy Winn.

Looks pretty even to me, although I'd give a slight edge to Frandsen based on age, position and ability to make contact.

by DrBGiantsfan on Jan 7, 2007 7:44 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: So......
I think the Frandsen/Lewis question is similar to the Lewis/Schierholtz question.  Frandsen would seem to be the more major-league ready, but Lewis would seem to have the higher ceiling.  Incidentally, Kevin was pretty awful at shortstop in the AFL last fall.

by sharksrog on Jan 10, 2007 5:30 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Interview with Kevin Goldstein
Fair enough to acknowledge, but I'm not sure that those things necessarily hurt the case for Frandsen.

EL Numbers:
Lewis: .273/.361/.396, 512 AB
Frandsen: .287/.336/.395, 129 AB

Frandsen spent less time in the east coast leagues primarily because he performed better.  He had a better year in Salem-Keizer as a rookie than Lewis did (yes, he was a year older than Lewis had been), but he didn't skip Hagerstown only because he was older.  Skipping Low-A is not a common thing for 4-year college players drafted in the 10th round or later, it's something some of them earn.

The time in the EL is much more simply put: Frandsen adjusted to the EL much faster and was on the upswing when he was promoted out of there.  He probably would've outslugged Lewis had he been given even just another week.

The difference in college experience is more notable and relevant, but mostly at the lower levels.  As I've note before, a player's adjustment ability is a huge factor in how I rank prospects, and Lewis is in Triple-A and hasn't learned how to play center field.  That isn't a slow developer, that's a non-developer IMO.

Interesting point about Winn, but a couple of other points:

  • His batting average did drop about 20 points from the minors to the majors
  • If it weren't for his half-season in SF in '05, his slugging percentage would be marginally lower in the majors than the minors.
So yes, perhaps his strength might come in like it did with Winn, but even if it does, it might remain only marginally more effective than it was in the minors, if that.

Finally, the last tidbit I'll counter: The difference in the 2006 slugging in Fresno was Frandsen getting just four more bases, or Lewis getting just six less.  It's not a big difference, especially if the base of this argument is the amount of secondary skills shown, and could arguably be more a result of speed than power.

by BruteSentiment on Jan 7, 2007 2:43 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Interview with Kevin Goldstein
I am not saying that I think Lewis is a better prospect than Frandsen, but I do think it is pretty reasonable for a person to go either way on this score.

A few counterpoints ...

Maybe Frandsen would have had a higher SLG in the Eastern League if he had spent more time there.  Then again, Frandsen didn't have to play in the Eastern League in April and May.  For various reasons, it has been noted that Lewis had much better numbers in the second half in the Eastern League that year than in the first half (although that is more about AVG than secondary average as I recall).

Did Frandsen really have a better stint in the NWL?  That surprised me given that Lewis was the league batting champ.  Here are their stats:
Lewis 2002: .322/.396/.397 in 239 AB
Frand 2004: .296/.369/.439 in 98 AB
The OPS are nearly equal.  Lewis was a bit younger when he was in the league.  Frandsen's season was cut short by his collarbone injury.  One could argue that perhaps Frandsen's rate stats are a bit inflated in this comparison since it seems that often hitters do very well in the first few weeks of the NWL before top pitchers have joined the league and/or have their workloads stretched back out.

In regards to the statement that "skipping low-A is not a common thing for 4-year college players drafted in the 10th round or later," I think that statement is a bit misleading.  How many 4-year college players get drafted in the first four rounds, six rounds or nine rounds?  It's common for 4-year college players to go to low-A for the same reason that they played college ball for 4 years instead of 3 years--they generally don't have the tools that make them a real prospect.  The 3-year college players who do tend to go low-A are the guys who generally come from the less competitive college ranks (e.g., Fred Lewis, probably Emmanuel Burriss).

by steve S on Jan 8, 2007 9:18 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Interview with Kevin Goldstein
Great interview. It's nice to see that Schoop is generating some good reports from observers.

by Dan from NM on Jan 6, 2007 2:39 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Re: Interview with Kevin Goldstein
It was indeed good to get both the scoop and the straight poop on Schoop.

by sharksrog on Jan 10, 2007 5:32 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Not on my banana split, thank you
That's a big Scoop of Schoop Poop.

by Moggeee on Jan 14, 2007 12:48 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Interview with Kevin Goldstein
I remain intrigued by Schierholtz.  He is still young and he survived the hitter's hell that is the Eastern League. However, the Giants have a number of outfielders and they tend to bury their own prospects so it probably doesn't matter much what Nate does in AAA.  Still, I have a feeling he is going to hit well in the PCL.

by Sinister Dick on Jan 6, 2007 4:32 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

Re: Interview with Kevin Goldstein
FWIW, I am not convinced that Schierholtz will be assigned to Fresno in the spring.  It probably depends upon he performs in spring training, but his Hawaii performance did not seem to indicate a player read for the PCL.

Here is one possibility for the Giants OFs:
MLB: Bonds, Roberts, Winn, Linden, Klesko
AAA: Lewis, Ellison, Ortmeier, ??
AA: EME, Timpner, Schierholtz, Horwitz, Foster
A+: Copeland, Richardson, Mooney, Bowker
A-: McBryde, Weston, Graham, Felmy

Others (with experience at ssA or higher): Requena, Wagner, Sosa, Dobson, Salsgiver, Yens, Neal

by steve S on Jan 8, 2007 9:31 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Interview with Kevin Goldstein
Two comments on this setup: Ellison would have to clear waivers and be resigned in order to be on the Fresno roster, true? How likely is it that he might seek out greener pastures once waived? Secondly, given the organization's (IMO justified) treatment of Ortmeier last year I'd think it likely that they might skip Nate over him this year if RF in Fresno/CT came to that choice.  Those two issues might make a Lewis/Timpner/Schierholtz OF in Fresno the season opener.

by Roger on Jan 8, 2007 10:12 AM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Interview with Kevin Goldstein
Yes, Ellison would have to clear waivers to be assigned to Fresno.  But he would not have to be resigned.  Since this is the first time he is being removed from the 40-man roster and since he has a limited amount of MLB service time, he can be outrighted to the minors.  Ellison would not have the right/option to become a free agent.

Note: Niekro is in a similar position, and this may also affect where Ishikawa is assigned to begin the season.  I think Ishikawa is going back to Connecticut, though, since the Giants resigned Chad Santos.

by steve S on Jan 8, 2007 12:33 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Interview with Kevin Goldstein
Thanks for the clarification.

by Roger on Jan 8, 2007 12:47 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Interview with Kevin Goldstein
If Nate -- a fellow alum of mine, although I somehow graduated a few decades ahead of him :)-- hits well at Fresno next season, wouldn't he place himself in great position?  Assuming Barry Bonds retires, the Giants won't have a single solid corner outfielder, unless Todd Linden chooses 2007 instead of 2008 or 2009 as his season to show major-league ability.

Nate has the arm for right field, although not the range in The Booth.  So he's probably a left fielder (just as Eddie Martinez-Esteve is ideally a designated hitter).  But with Barry's money it would seem the Giants could perhaps find a right fielder to complement Nate.  And certainly Todd can play right.

IMO the reason the Giants have "buried" their everyday prospects is that they were mostly suspects.  At this point Nate Schierholtz is still a prospect.  He was poor early in his move to AA, but he came on strongly at the end.

Hopefully Nate can combine the strength of his dad with the lightness of his marathon-running mom.  And while I doubt Nate would consider the idea, I do have a friend of his supposedly putting the bug in his ear that a return to the catcher's mask he wore less than a decade ago might increase his value.  Can you think of a better way to make the major leagues than as a lefthanded-hitting catcher?  There just aren't many around -- and they would be SO useful for platoons.

Speaking of which, Bengie Molina DESTROYED lefty pitching last season.  This year with the likely necessity of facing more righties, I don't expect him to have quite as big a year with the bat.  And to make matters worse, Bengie's defense has fallen precipitously from his Gold Glove years of 2002 and 2003.  He is said to have gotten himself into far better shape, so perhaps that will help him on both sides of the plate.

by sharksrog on Jan 10, 2007 5:26 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Interview with Kevin Goldstein
Kevin Goldstein if you read this, I just want to let you know THANK YOU SO MUCH!

And Grant keep on chugging along.

Sabean stop giving away our first round draft picks!!

by z4 landshark on Jan 6, 2007 9:33 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

4 and 34
I think I might be the guy who made the comment you were referring to when you asked the question about the difference between #4 and #34 prospects in the Giants organization  Yes, I was using a bit of hyperbole, but I was also serious.  Really, how much difference is there, say, between, say, Fred Lewis, Ben Copeland and Bobby Felmy?  Eddy Martinez-Esteve and Matt Weston?  Jonathan Sanchez and Clayton Tanner?  Yes, there is probably a bell curve of talent level in the organization, but it's a very broad, flat one once you get past, well, Tim Lincecum.

by DrBGiantsfan on Jan 7, 2007 7:39 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

Shape of the Curve
I guess the bell curve would be very narrow and tall with most of the prospects bunched in the mediocre category.  If the curve was broad and flat, there would be a wide variation in the quality of the prospects.

by DrBGiantsfan on Jan 8, 2007 2:46 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: 4 and 34
Regarding how much difference there is between say Jonathan Sanchez and Clayton Tanner, I think their ceilings are similar.  I've seen Jonathan pitch, of course, and spoke to one of Clayton's high school coaches about him.  Apparently Clay has been told that he will be used as a starter this season, which makes complete sense.  Clay has a fairly full cupboard of pitches, although I don't think he yet commands too many of them.

The difference I see in Jonathan (who threw four no-hitters in college) and Clay is that Jonathan appears on the brink of becoming an important major-league player, while Clayton is likely at least three or four years away. A lot can go wrong in that time, including injury.  So while I suspect the potentials of the two are somewhat similar (and I have great hope for both), Jonathan would be my higher prospect due to the greater likelihood of his reaching that potential.

Keep a close eye on Clayton though.  My friend who coached him (at De La Salle High) likes him a lot.  Clayton pitched well in short-season A ball at only 18 years of age.  He didn't make Kevin Goldstein's top ten prospects, but he was listed immediately thereafter as "the sleeper," a pitcher who projects well but is many seasons away.

by sharksrog on Jan 10, 2007 5:42 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Interview with Kevin Goldstein
Terrific interview.  Thanks to Grant, Steve, and Brute for making it happen.

by Skaldheim on Jan 7, 2007 9:47 AM PST reply actions   0 recs

Re: Interview with Kevin Goldstein
I'd love to take credit, but Grant made it happen.  I was just brought in to offer potential questions.  Thanks Grant!

by BruteSentiment on Jan 7, 2007 2:14 PM PST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Interview with Kevin Goldstein
Any guesses as to where Kevin Goldstein will rank Timmy in BP's top 100 prospects?  His answer to me in an on-line chat led me to believe that he might rank Timmy 20-25 (just a feel on my part), but when he said in Grant's interview that Timmy would rank "VERY high," I've got to think that meant top 10 or at least top 20.

Incidentally, it was only Class A, but Timmy struck out 47.5% of the batters he faced in his initial season of pro ball -- and gave up only one line drive.  

How do YOU spell dominance?  Incidentally, that was more than 20% above Johan Santana and over 15% above (gulp) Francisco Liriano.

by sharksrog on Jan 10, 2007 5:48 PM PST reply actions   0 recs

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