Tired of this....
The story: Bonds tests positive for amphetamines, mentions Mark Sweeney's name.
The possible conversation between Gene Orza and Barry Bonds, according to....
A Bonds apologist:
Bonds: Amphibian.
Orza: Twelve-letter word for someone that can use both hands?
Bonds: Ambidextrous.
Orza: Name of a drug that rhymes with praletamines?
Bonds: I don't know.
Mark Sweeney: Amphetamines?
Bonds: Yeah, amphetamines.
Orza: You get that from Sweeney?
Bonds: Yes. Yes I did.
Orza: (turns off tape recorder) See you in Hell, rat fink.
Bonds: Wait, what?
Bonds: Tejada gave me the injection. I had arthritis. I thought it was ecstasy. Talk to my lawyers.
Orza: No, you tested positive for amphetamines.
Bonds: What? Man, that was Mike Sweeney's stuff. He was like, "Here, try this coffee," and was all winking and stuff. So I tried it, and I could taste the amphetamines right away, and I was all, "Yuck! Hey, Mike, that kind of thing is illegal, and I have half a mind to report you!", and he's all....
Orza: Wow. When did this happen? Was it in the Royals clubhouse, or yours?
Bonds: Royals?
Orza: Mike Sweeney's on the Royals. Did you mean your teammate Mark Sweeney?
Bonds: They're two different guys? Then, it was the guy on my team. He was all, "Hey, all the cool players are drinking this coffee," and I was all, "Listen, Mike or Mark. I am not into illegal substances. Period."
Bottom line, from the ESPN article:
THEN: The reason for doing so is to implicate Bonds in yet another scandal.
ERGO POST PROMPTER EX HOC: They have an anti-Bonds agenda that would also benefit from the suggestion that Bonds is a total rat fink who is willing to implicate anyone and everyone to exonerate him. Seriously. I promise I'm not an apologist, but it is far more likely that the leaker was doing it to further damage Bonds's credibility and not to be some Superhero J. Goodperson serving The Public's Right to Know. Those are the only two motives I can think of, and the first one - coupled with "unnamed sources" and shadowy implications of treachery - is so, so, so sketchy, especially when reported by those wacky New York papers.
WORTH NOTING: Bonds is kind of an ugly human being. It wouldn't surprise me if he were the type to throw other people under the bus. Remember the Seinfeld where George pushes his way past women, children, and Jon Favreau to escape a fire? That's what I'd expect from Bonds in a similar situation. Just so everyone knows I'm not disbelieving that it could happen, but that Occam's Razor could shave both ways on this one.
0 recs |
123 comments
Comments
Re: Tired of this....
by Skaldheim on Jan 11, 2007 1:20 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
I defend Barry
(Except for the acne on his back.)
by Moggeee on Jan 11, 2007 1:26 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Re: I defend Barry
by ilykeitlykedat on Jan 11, 2007 3:22 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Hey hey now..
by WalrusMan on Jan 11, 2007 1:28 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Re: Tired of this....
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2007/baseball/mlb/01/11/bonds.amphetamines/1.html
by War on Jan 11, 2007 1:36 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Re: Tired of this....
On the one hand, nothing about the prospect of Barry rattin out a teammate sounds suprising to me. I have always appreciated the mans abilties, but never his personality. Since I hold the belief that, in baseball, what happens in the clubhouse is as important as what happens on the field, it has never suprised me that the Giants have failed to win a championship with Bonds. "Hitting is a solitary act. Winning isnt." So the saying goes. Basically, I didnt need a reason to not like Bonds, but this certainly didnt help.
On the other hand, this story is so swarmy (unnamed sources, the implication that a MLB rule was broken through this leak, the freakin Daily News for gods sake) that I cant help but give some credence to Bonds' parinoia. How could you not think for a minute that baseball and the press were "out to get" Barry after reading a story like this.
The whole thing stinks. I feel gross having read it.
by ckrehel on Jan 11, 2007 1:39 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Re: Tired of this....
by hairball on Jan 11, 2007 1:52 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
A Bonds Admirer, but not a Bonds Apologist
And very few would feel dirty for having read it.
by Moggeee on Jan 11, 2007 1:54 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Re: A Bonds Admirer, but not a Bonds Apologist
by howtheyscored on Jan 11, 2007 4:49 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Tired of this....
There, I feel vindicated again.
by lunaticfridge on Jan 11, 2007 1:56 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Talking about Surges
Just a side thought, was Durham also tested?
by wilriv21 on Jan 11, 2007 1:57 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Re: Talking about Surges
It was known last year that Bonds was playing with the help of numerous prescription drugs that were helping him cope with the pain of strengthening his thrice surgically repaired right knee, and a left elbow that locked up during Spring Training because of floating bone chips. Bonds didn't try to hide his prescription drug use, keeping the bottles in his locker at AT&T Park and taking the pills openly.
I mean, c'mon, if you or I were getting treated for these things, there would be varying degrees of both amphetamines and steroids in the mix, I imagine.
by hairball on Jan 11, 2007 2:02 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Talking about Surges
If Barry was going around telling people about the test result, as the Chron article indicates, then it certainly jives with this possibility.
by hairball on Jan 11, 2007 2:05 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
So Sweeney had Sudafed and Benadryl in his locker
Just wonder what Sweeney's test results looked like after taking the same Sudafed and Bebadryl.
by wilriv21 on Jan 11, 2007 2:13 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I don't buy it
And Bonds, a sharp cookie, apparently chose not to take that route in his own defense.
Moreover, he chose not to appeal.
by Moggeee on Jan 11, 2007 2:13 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: I don't buy it
by rxmeister on Jan 11, 2007 3:19 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: I don't buy it
by hairball on Jan 11, 2007 3:35 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Now You Know Why
- Magowan said in October "Bonds will not be the centerpiece."
- After capitulating to the big loveable lug and his salary, the Giants are taking forever to protect themselves by negotiating contract language.
by Moggeee on Jan 11, 2007 2:00 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Re: Tired of this....
by tk on Jan 11, 2007 2:08 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Re: Tired of this....
McGwire was not voted into the Hall of Fame on the basis of his "suspected" steroid abuse. Every mainstream article I have read mentions something along the lines of not having any hard evidence that McGwire was a steroids user. However, this article would seem to contain as much evidence as anything against Bonds (apologies for the poor formatting).
http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/story/289500p-247837c.html
In other news, was anyone really shocked to find out ball players take amphetamines?
by W8ingForATitle on Jan 11, 2007 2:10 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Yes
YES.
These players make good money, why aren't they using the undectable HGH?
by wilriv21 on Jan 11, 2007 2:16 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Yes
by hairball on Jan 11, 2007 3:37 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Yes
by attinger on Jan 11, 2007 9:39 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
HGH and amphetamines
by W8ingForATitle on Jan 11, 2007 3:42 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
A ballplayer's desire for alertness and speed is..
Aaron and Mays apparently sprinkled them on their corn flakes every morning back in the days when nobody suspected, or cared.
by Moggeee on Jan 11, 2007 2:17 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Rules in effect NOW
by Mayor of 311 on Jan 11, 2007 2:21 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
That's not hard evidence either...
this town thinks you're a bastard - Elvis Costello
by EliminateMe on Jan 11, 2007 2:34 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Bonny Barnds
vr, Xei
by Xeifrank on Jan 11, 2007 2:15 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Re: Tired of this....
by cheno on Jan 11, 2007 2:33 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Re: Tired of this....
by hairball on Jan 11, 2007 3:38 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Play Misty for Me
At the old fog-enshrouded Candlestick, taking the stray Dodger fans into the right field stands and whupping the crap out of them.
by Moggeee on Jan 11, 2007 3:46 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
This year's forecast: Drizzle, fog, and low clouds
by Moggeee on Jan 11, 2007 3:53 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: This year's forecast: Drizzle, fog, and low cl
by hairball on Jan 11, 2007 5:55 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
God's Country
Wouldn't trade 'em for a penthouse on Nob Hill.
by Moggeee on Jan 11, 2007 10:40 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Tired of this....
by JakeS on Jan 12, 2007 3:53 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Tired of this....
Remember, no one is leaking the names of other guys who had a first positive amphetamine test.
Also, there is a silver lining here - Bonds was then subject to six tests for cause, and he apparently failed none of them. Not for steroids, not for amphetamines.
At any rate, does this mean that fans will throw green M&Ms at Bonds instead of syringes?
by North Side Chicago Expatriate Giants Fan on Jan 11, 2007 2:34 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Re: Tired of this....
I hope so with the M&Ms. Maybe they can make special ones with Barry faces on.
by tk on Jan 11, 2007 2:40 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Tired of this....
by North Side Chicago Expatriate Giants Fan on Jan 11, 2007 3:04 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Tired of this....
That should definitely earn him a cookie.
I really couldn't care less about the drugs. But giving up Sweeney was about as low as it gets, and perfectly typical of Bonds. Flaxseed oil, "get my kid in the shot", there is a deflection for every accusation.
And good laughs Grant.
by Stoned Slacker on Jan 11, 2007 2:48 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Re: Tired of this....
by hairball on Jan 11, 2007 3:39 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
and let's not forget his buddy Anderson
by wilriv21 on Jan 11, 2007 5:09 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I think Anderson is on the payroll
The bill is going to be enormous.
by Moggeee on Jan 11, 2007 10:51 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: I think Anderson is on the payroll
by stress on Jan 12, 2007 12:46 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Tired of this....
by Rusty the Mechanical Man on Jan 11, 2007 3:02 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Re: Tired of this....
Plus, in response to the people who claim this could be a false positive (really on the other thread) - I don't think that is likely at all.
From what I have read, it is standard procedure in a lab to split samples into two, in part because only a tiny bit needs to be tested, and in part to ensure that multiple samples are tested to prevent false positives.
From what I know (and anyone who works in this field could confirm or deny my statements), this shouldn't be a false positive. From a legal standpoint, if I were Barry's lawyer (oh the wealth!), I would make damn sure that the lab followed proper procedure, and if not, I would appeal the results. That didn't happen.
by North Side Chicago Expatriate Giants Fan on Jan 11, 2007 3:03 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Guilty as charged
Unless, as Grant points out, you happen to be a Bonds Apologist.
If so, you can make a pretty convincing case to yourself that media aliens from Mars abducted Barry and souped him up with Benzedrine.
by Moggeee on Jan 11, 2007 3:34 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Several things can be true AT THE SAME TIME
Many things can be true at the same time, folks, and there has been a lot of intellectual laziness around these parts as it pertains to BB. People (like me) who say that it's no defense of BB to say steroid use "didn't break any rules" when it damn well did break rules are immediately slammed as part of the noose-and-torch crowd that's looking for BB and a sturdy tree. (Trying hard not to look at you, E.) This after a solid year of defending BB and of absolutely butt-knifing the S.F. office of the U.S. Attys office. I believe it is both true that the U.S. Asshattorneys have been improper and wrong-headed in the BB/Balco investigation, AND that it's still unproven whether he took steroids, AND that steroid usage before last year nevertheless was breaking the rules inasmuch as it violated criminal laws and might violate the player's contract (morals clause, covenant to keep self healthy, etc.)
This incident is another example of several things being true simultaneously. I believe the following things are true AT THE SAME TIME:
- The media are biased against BB, but that doesn't make them factually incorrect. Further, I doubt their bias would lead them to make up something totally fictional out of thin air. Now, several people on here have already said not to believe anything the media say. Well, ok, but that's silly. I would agree that a good first step would be to discount their modifiers and just look at the underlying facts.
- BB tested positive for amphetamines. This is a fact. Amphetamines were famously outlawed for MLB players before last season. This is also a fact.
- BB said Sweeney's name somewhere in all this. Before screaming, reread the verb in that sentence. I didn't say "blamed," "implicated," "narc'ed," "tearfully said that he did whatever Sweeney told him to do just to stop the beatings," or anything-- because we do not know in what way or in what context BB referred to Sweeney. But there was a reference made.
- bud selig is such a low-life shitbag that I cannot bring myself to capitalize the slugturd's name. He has a metaphorical hard-on for BB (a literal one being impossible for him). He has all the class of marge schott combined with the brilliant insight of don "when you fly over Iraq, it doesn't look like it's on fire" rumsfeld. If there were any way he could hurt BB, he would certainly consider it and might well do it.
- People who leak things that are supposed to be confidential are (with a few important and definable exceptions) scum. This applies to the U.S. Asshattorneys on the BALCO/BB case, and to whomever leaked medical/employee records which are (I am guessing) protected by law to be confidential; and of course, players were told they'd be confidential. I hope the MLBPA will investigate this and sue whomever leaked it, and I hope BB and MS will, too. (If there is no action on the leak by MLBPA or BB, I would find that interesting and maybe significant.)
- Taking amphetamines in violation of a famous but recent MLB rule is not the same as taking meth that was cooked by enslaved & hobbled children-- SO? That's a logical fallacy to compare them. The last time I spent much time looking at criminal procedure, it wasn't a defense to armed robbery to say "oh, yeah? Well, this one time, at Evil Camp, Hitler organized and led the murder of 6M Jews." Just because something worse happened before doesn't excuse something lesser that happened now. They aren't related. It's a straw man. (Or 'person of straw,' if you prefer.)
- We have zero idea who leaked this information. COULD have been the MLB front office; they're certainly on the short list. But we can't really guess yet.
The wrongness of the leak doesn't mean that BB didn't test positive for speed and then mention Sweeney in some way. The wrongness of taking speed and mentioning Sweeney in some way doesn't mean that an improper leak didn't happen. They can all be true at the same time.
by Mayor of 311 on Jan 11, 2007 3:06 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Re: Several things can be true AT THE SAME TIME
by North Side Chicago Expatriate Giants Fan on Jan 11, 2007 3:11 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Several things can be true AT THE SAME TIME
by WithTechron on Jan 11, 2007 3:18 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
OUCH!!!! What on earth does THAT mean???
by Mayor of 311 on Jan 11, 2007 3:19 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: OUCH!!!! What on earth does THAT mean???
by WithTechron on Jan 11, 2007 3:47 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Thanks for clarification & retraction!
by Mayor of 311 on Jan 11, 2007 3:54 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Thanks for clarification & retraction!
by BaronVonCurrentEvents on Jan 11, 2007 4:33 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: OUCH!!!! What on earth does THAT mean???
by Moggeee on Jan 11, 2007 3:55 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Several things can be true AT THE SAME TIME
by North Side Chicago Expatriate Giants Fan on Jan 11, 2007 3:20 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Thanks, NorthSide! That's what I was thinking!
by Mayor of 311 on Jan 11, 2007 3:26 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Several things can be true AT THE SAME TIME
by tobias on Jan 11, 2007 7:40 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Several things can be true AT THE SAME TIME
by hairball on Jan 11, 2007 3:42 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Several things can be true AT THE SAME TIME
by seyheystretch on Jan 11, 2007 6:45 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Several things can be true AT THE SAME TIME
I didn't win. Frankly, I didn't even try. I was too busy trying to figure what the hell Meatloaf A'totupu was and why somebody would want to eat it.
Sounds like a joke, I know, but this really happened.
by howtheyscored on Jan 11, 2007 7:43 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Several things can be true AT THE SAME TIME
So, the media is biased against the conservatives too. Yes the media is biased.
2. BB tested positive for amphetamines. This is a fact. Amphetamines were famously outlawed for MLB players before last season. This is also a fact.
Fact.
3. BB said Sweeney's name somewhere in all this.
And Sweeney agent agrees with this too.
4. bud selig is such a low-life shitbag that I cannot bring myself to capitalize the slugturd's name.
I can - Bud Selig. A man who truly loves the game, its history and has implemented wild card and drug testing.
5. People who leak things that are supposed to be confidential are (with a few important and definable exceptions) scum.
Somehow I bet that the "with a few important and definable exceptions" it is ok to leak if it meets ones own agenda.
6. Taking amphetamines in violation of a famous but recent MLB rule is not the same as taking meth that was cooked by enslaved & hobbled children-- SO?
I just love it, love it, love it when we get to pick and choose the laws we want to enforce or compare.
7. We have zero idea who leaked this information. COULD have been the MLB front office; they're certainly on the short list. But we can't really guess yet.
I can guess. SF Chron said a major league source. Any of the ballplayers Bonds told could be the Chron's source.
by wilriv21 on Jan 11, 2007 4:51 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Chron's source not the original leak
Someone initially gave the info to the Daily News, and then someone (could have been the same someone, but more likely not) confirmed the positive test result to the Chron.
this town thinks you're a bastard - Elvis Costello
by EliminateMe on Jan 11, 2007 5:04 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Several things can be true AT THE SAME TIME
He may love baseball and its history, but if the wild card is the only thing he's done to improve the sport (and some would argue), it doesn't make him a good man or a good commissioner.
Now Commissioner Gordon. There was a Commissioner, and what a man.
by howtheyscored on Jan 11, 2007 5:26 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Drug Testing finally approved
I would put the blame on MLBPA and its membership. Selig had been pushing a long time for a drug testing policy before the MLBPA finally agreed.
I would prefer MLB outsource the testing to a qualified and independent source like WADA.
by wilriv21 on Jan 11, 2007 5:35 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Drug Testing finally approved
Still, if his inroad to steroid testing was going to have to be public acknowledgment of the problem, it's still suspect that he didn't make a public problem of it until after the league had adequately benefited from its effects.
He's generally covered his ass very well, but I just don't buy that he's an innocent-ish party, and I don't believe he's been good for the sport, though he couldn't do much about the early problems of his commissionership.
by howtheyscored on Jan 11, 2007 6:02 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Several things can be true AT THE SAME TIME
I do want to address two shots which I consider cheap, though.
First, the "pick and choose which laws to enforce and compare." Enforcing and comparing are really two different issues, and you're conflating them for a point I don't quite get. But let me say that I am for enforcing all laws & have never suggested leniency on any legal violations. These laws include drug laws... and the laws that prohibit disclosure of grand jury testimony, which is supposed to be the nearest thing to sacred that we have. Among others.
The second and probably cheaper shot is your rather snide suggestion that my definition of acceptable leaks -- which I stated was "definable" -- would somehow be an expedient standard for my own agenda. If I SAID "definable," why not just challenge me to state the definition, rather than assume the conclusion that fits your preconceived/misconceived notion of what I'm saying? I'm not picking on you-- that actually IS how people make decisions; they jump to conclusions then backfill their reasons, not even necessarily aware that that's the order their mind is working.
My definition of acceptable leaks is really pretty easy: check any 'Whistleblower Law.' Information which is secret but where the public interest is served by disclosure and there is no other proper channel that the information would likely follow to become public; e.g., corruption, public safety, or national interest. Pentagon Papers, ok; nuclear launch codes, not ok. Congressman using publicly-funded electronic equipment to troll the interns, leak it; grand jury testimony about almost anything, don't leak.
But, really, you can't possibly be disputing the POINT of my post that it can be simultaneously true that BB did wrong AND the leakers did wrong and that neither one excuses the other, are you?
by Mayor of 311 on Jan 11, 2007 7:49 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
"I'm for enforcing all laws..."
by stress on Jan 12, 2007 1:01 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Sorry, one other thing
Shirley, you don't dispute that?
And before E bursts another blood vessel, let me add that there ARE valid defenses of BB, and I have to repeat them every time someone learns I'm a Giants fan. But "others are worse," "Babe Ruth was a drunk," "Mays took speed," and "taking steroids didn't break any rules" are not among them.
by Mayor of 311 on Jan 11, 2007 7:56 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Keep Swinging Mayor
I definitely have a different opinion of Commissioner Selig. I know we have a different line of demarcation when it comes to the leak "exceptions". Many of these exception where people leak are done to serve an agenda. Your statement grand jury testimony about almost anything, don't leak. would it be ok to leak ANY grand jury testimony? Even though it is already on the record?
I agree with you that there are plenty out to make a statement with going after Bonds. I do not have a problem with that. He broke the law and will have to pay for that. That does not preclude them from going after the others also.
by wilriv21 on Jan 12, 2007 11:36 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
grand jury testimony
First, witnesses who are summoned (or who sometimes ask to be subpeonaed) are assured that whatever they say is confidential and will be sacred. So leaking g.j. testimony undermines the sanctity of their work and would make witnesses less inclined to cooperate with them. This is a HUGE deal, Wil. So if some dirtbag prosecutor is going to leak information, it had better be of SUCH enormous importance to the public good that it is worth putting a dent in one of the most important arms of criminal investigation that we have. Again, there MIGHT be a scenario that makes it worth that risk, but I can't imagine something worth risking the concept of the grand jury for.
Second, you say "on the record" as if that means something. The grand jury hears testimony from witnesses who are (a) NOT CROSS-EXAMINED, which has been called the greatest device ever invented for detecting the truth, and (b) presented SOLELY ON BEHALF OF THE PROSECUTION SIDE. So, yeah, it's "on the record" because there's a court reporter there typing it all up and there's a transcript, but so what? It's the transcript of a (necessarily) ONE-SIDED, unfiltered dumping of all known evidence that would support indictment, and NONE of the exculpatory evidence that might eventually acquit at the (later) trial phase.
It should be obvious, then, that grand jury testimony is a great brief of the damning side, but with none of the balancing -- or even outright contradictory -- evidence of the other side. It's not balanced. It's not supposed to be. Have you heard the old saying that "a grand jury will indict a ham sandwich if you ask it right"? There's a reason for that. It's because they aren't hearing the ham sandwich's side of the story nor anyone else's contradictory information.
So for reasons that (a) protect the integral function of the grand jury and (b) understand that grand jury testimony is only the most damning possible picture, no, it's hard for me to imagine a circumstance under which leaking grand jury testimony is ok.
And it would have nothing whatsoever to do with my "agenda," but for god's sake, can we all agree that whether an employee of a private entertainment corporation took drugs to enhance his performance DOES NOT rise to the level of things like government corruption, public safety (like a bridge built with the wrong mix of concrete), and that sort of thing? Not worth damaging the g.j. system over stuff like this.
by Mayor of 311 on Jan 12, 2007 5:17 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Several things can be true AT THE SAME TIME
I am so tired of this myth of the liberal media. It just makes me sick.
by CystedTwister on Jan 12, 2007 2:21 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Several things can be true AT THE SAME TIME
by achiappanza on Jan 12, 2007 4:46 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: The editors???
by stress on Jan 13, 2007 1:48 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Cool! sample size of one. Case closed! Yay!
by Mayor of 311 on Jan 13, 2007 8:15 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: The editors???
by hometownboy on Jan 14, 2007 2:01 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Several things can be true AT THE SAME TIME
by Dan from NM on Jan 11, 2007 6:28 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Several things can be true AT THE SAME TIME
- Peds as a problem are overrated. It is a medical issue and should be considered as such and in a similar vein as extreme forms of surgical enhancements as ligament transplants.
- The Peds issue was wrenched from the hands of the medical community and placed in the hands of politicians, and the rest of the Federal Government complex. Many PEDS have legitimate medical uses that are beneficial and healing. Some are not. Its complicated. They are illegal. Alcohol is also regulated by the Federal Government. Alcohol is overwhelmingly a recreational drug ingested orally in liquid form. It is the direct cause of thousands of violent and non-violent deaths and hospitalizations every year. But it is legal. And its purveyors pour millions into advertising and political campaigns every year. Nobody is seriously proposing that the 18th amendment be reinstated, in spite of the thousands of deaths and injuries. If you cannot acknowledge these simple truths about PEDs and alcohol, then you are arguing with yourself.
- These guys are professional atheletes. As such they are huge risk takers. PEDs are potentially hazardous to ones quanity as well as quality of life. So is driving a race car, surfing Mavericks, HALO jumps. Activities not generally experienced by most members of mass media, who tend to not engage in otherwise physically risky behavior. It takes one to understand one so to speak.
- I have little respect for agenda-driven reporting which has been a staple in journalism schools for the last 40 years. Wanting to "make a difference" being the mantra. Wanting to win a Pulitizer in the same way a Barry Bonds wants to break a HR record. I have a better idea. How about they just report the facts, keep their difference-making efforts to the Op-Ed page, and let the readers make the difference, if the readers so desire.
- The number of people who believe that Bonds is not being singled out, is very small. The only difference is whether some want to justify it or not. I have no stomach for mass media crusades. I had no stomach for the media crusade against Roger Maris, Cassius Clay in the early 60s, the crusade against Curt Flood, and later still Andy Messersmith when he and Dave McNally broke the reserve clause and "ruined baseball forever". And as such, I have no stomach for the crusade against Bonds now. I do not believe that being adversarial and cynical canonizes a journalist as the patron saint of objectivity. I think mostly the opposite. I think that most mass media people believe otherwise. And thats why I think they are mostly full of shit.
Whatever.
by E Ticket on Jan 11, 2007 8:23 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Several things can be true AT THE SAME TIME
But I guess that just proves your point. Oh well, we're all happier you said it, anyway, believers and non-believers alike.
by howtheyscored on Jan 11, 2007 8:36 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Several things can be true AT THE SAME TIME
by Mayor of 311 on Jan 11, 2007 10:18 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Tired of this....
by North Side Chicago Expatriate Giants Fan on Jan 11, 2007 3:08 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Re: Tired of this....
- Not caring. He broke the rule, he'll be punished for it (increased testing for first offense, IIRC), I care equally as much as I did when Zach Day got busted with a nail file.
- Not caring some more, but also wondering if this makes it that much more likely that Mark Sweeney gets dealt.
by JakeS on Jan 11, 2007 3:22 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Barry sometimes a bad actor?
But I am still transfixed, even though he's 80, when he strides to the plate.
by Moggeee on Jan 11, 2007 3:39 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Tired of this....
by GaryEdmundCarter on Jan 11, 2007 3:37 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Another Shameful Turn
Peter: This is it. You can turn around your franchise, turn around the way it is perceived and do something (gasp) good for baseball. You've signed Zito - a terrible move but no matter: people like it. You've got some young pitching. There is a future, not withstanding the signings of Aurilia, Feliz, Klesko and Ortiz (all of which are beyond pathetic). Where was I? Oh yeah, dump Bonds! You've been handed another chance.
Plus, the offseason is so far advanced that it's unlikely that anyone else will pick him up - especially after this latest fiasco. So, he won't be not-breaking the record in anyone else's uniform (and he won't be breaking it either way).
Anyway, like I said, this is yet another chance for the Giants to relinquish their position as the moral nadir and laughing stock of the sports world. Take it.
by dodgerfan on Jan 11, 2007 4:17 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Re: Another Shameful Turn
Plus, it would be great for the Dodgers if Bonds isn't in the Giants' lineup, wouldn't it? No thanks.
And Aurilia? I'll take him over Juan Pierre for sure.
by North Side Chicago Expatriate Giants Fan on Jan 11, 2007 4:21 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Another Shameful Turn
If it's good for the Dodgers, it's bad for baseball.
by tobias on Jan 11, 2007 7:44 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Another Shameful Turn
Also: Pedro Feliz.
by dodgerfan on Jan 11, 2007 7:56 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Another Shameful Turn
It can't be "Barry goes and everybody else stays because I like everybody else and he's a jerk." I'm not calling you an idiot because you're a Dodger fan. Worse things have happened. I'm calling you an idiot because you basically just said that thing I just put in quotes.
And if he breaks Aaron's record, you're still an idiot.
Phew, I'm satisfied. Now I can go another two months without responding to a single sickening, even-I-recognize-is-intentionally-meant-to-make-me-respond-like-an-idiot word you say.
So who's more the idiot, the idiot or the guy who falls for the idiot's intentional hook? In this case, you.
(ok, so the insulting cracks at the end were just fun, give me a break)
by howtheyscored on Jan 11, 2007 8:21 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Another Shameful Turn
by hammystyle on Jan 12, 2007 9:38 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
I'm ok if Giants do not sign Bonds
CF Winn
RF Drew
4th OF Linden
Thank you Mr Bonds. Your recliner can be claimed at will call.
by wilriv21 on Jan 11, 2007 5:17 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Drew?
by groug on Jan 11, 2007 5:54 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Did the Red Sox FINALLY sign him?
by wilriv21 on Jan 11, 2007 6:20 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: I'm ok if Giants do not sign Bonds
by hairball on Jan 11, 2007 6:03 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
The 2007 Model Drew vs 2007 Model Bonds
by wilriv21 on Jan 11, 2007 6:25 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: The 2007 Model Drew vs 2007 Model Bonds
by xanthan on Jan 11, 2007 7:06 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: The 2007 Model Drew vs 2007 Model Bonds
By the way, Bonds publicly apologized to Sweeney for mentioning his name, and denied Sweeney's involvement in anything related to this drug test.
by hometownboy on Jan 11, 2007 8:06 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: I'm ok if Giants do not sign Bonds
Jeez.
by howtheyscored on Jan 11, 2007 6:04 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Tired of this....
And assuming that the positive test was for a OTC medication, is that even appealable? In other words, are MLB guidelines such that you are deemed to have a positive test even if the amphetamines came from a legal source?
by War on Jan 11, 2007 4:25 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Re: Tired of this....
Sudafed doesn't have amphetamines. It just has some sort of amphetamine precursors. Whether that would cause a positive test, I don't know, but it wouldn't matter. Like I said, banned is banned.
by North Side Chicago Expatriate Giants Fan on Jan 11, 2007 4:29 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Sending a case of this to the Giants clubhouse...
by xanthan on Jan 11, 2007 5:18 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
I'm holding out for Jean-Claude Van Damme's
this town thinks you're a bastard - Elvis Costello
by EliminateMe on Jan 11, 2007 5:55 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Oh Schnapps
by Natto on Jan 11, 2007 8:22 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Oh Schnapps
by tk on Jan 11, 2007 8:27 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Oh Schnapps
by hometownboy on Jan 11, 2007 8:30 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Oh Schnapps
by SF Pete on Jan 11, 2007 8:32 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Oh Schnapps
by hometownboy on Jan 11, 2007 8:36 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Tired of this....
Now, a question: it seems to me that the Bonds arguments I have with people go in a circle. I'll say "there is no conclusive evidence of what steroids can do for a hitter, particularly vis-a-vis what they can do for a pitcher." My interlocutor will say "But they were illegal!" To which I respond "yes, in the eyes of the U.S. government, but not explicitly in the eyes of MLB. To MLB, taking steroids was no different from all the players (including HOFers) who blew coke throughout the 1980s." And the response to this line of reasoning is, of course, "but using steroids is cheating!" If there is one thing I've learned from this thread, it's that TWO THINGS CAN BE TRUE AT THE SAME TIME. Even so, I'd like to know which of these two issues--the legality or the suspicion cast on statistics and the levelness of the playing field--is the central issue here. I don't discount that there are very valid and damning points to make in the case against Barry, but most of the arguments I hear from the people carrying the nooses seem to be less focused and specific arguments, and more mountains of various circumstantial bits of evidence that all amount to an unignorable pile of suspect maybes.
One totally unrelated point, if'n I've managed to keep anyone's attention this far (which I doubt): was anyone else surprised (as hell) by Bonds' public statement today? Honestly, the LAST person I would expect to make a smart PR move/generous mea culpa (or at least non sua culpa) like this is Barry, and I have to say that my general dislike of the man parted just long enough to admit that today's statement was a surprising touch of class. Way to go, BB!
by candymanhackman on Jan 11, 2007 8:40 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Non sua culpa
Good post, Candyman. I was pleasantly surprised by Bonds's unequivocal and prompt statement today. Good for him & good for the fabled "clubhouse."
As to your question of which is the big issue, supposed sanctity of stats vs. levelness of playing field (which are actually two ways of making the same point), I think it falls into predictable patterns of human decisionmaking. People already BELIEVE whatever they believe due to a variety of factors, chiefly life experience and attitudes. (I'm a trial/jury consultant, and I tell my clients that their jurors already decided their case around the age of 16, barring any life-altering experiences.) Thus, as I said above, people decide whatever they decide, THEN invent reasons to justify cerebrally what they decided viscerally. We all do it.
So the 2 (or more) sides on BB issues (and Iraq, and Jack Abramoff scandal, and alleged media bias, and the designated hitter rule, and whether Susan Sontag's stuff was overwritten crap) could be reliably predicted by looking at a person's life experiences + attitudes. That becomes a subtle art when picking a jury-- for example, a rule-driven minutiae-oriented person might be great for the prosecution of a Wall Street accountant charged with doctoring books, but might be bad for the prosecution in a drug case in which the agents cut corners. So that person isn't reliably pro-prosecution, but could be predicted to follow certain paths.
We don't see facts as they are... we see facts as WE are.
by Mayor of 311 on Jan 11, 2007 10:31 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
His apology????
by wilriv21 on Jan 12, 2007 11:44 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Whats the matter?
Tsk. Tsk. :D
by E Ticket on Jan 12, 2007 12:49 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Tired of this....
What is entertaining, is Grant's post. That was hilarious. I managed to scare my co-workers with my guffaws, especially with that ecstasy shit. I popped some a little while ago and it started to hit before I was halfway through the post. I never knew I could guffaw. Did I ever tell you how much I love you guys? I'm going to go dance now.
by attinger on Jan 11, 2007 9:18 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
Are leaks really so bad???
- They are often fascinating, even when misleading.
- They give us insight where we had none.
- They engender heated conversation, and an exchange of viewpoints and ideas.
- Life would be dull without them.
- God Bless the Squealers.
by Moggeee on Jan 11, 2007 10:58 PM PST reply actions 0 recs
This is a Moggeee joke, right?
by Mayor of 311 on Jan 12, 2007 8:45 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Are leaks really so bad???
by NearestNorwich on Jan 12, 2007 11:19 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Are leaks really so bad???
To cite the nature of the information or the source is simply blind. He tested positive for amphetamines or some analogue. He said that may have used steroids unwittingly. Now I am a HUGE Giants fan, have loved watching Barry become the greatest player of era, and don't really care if players use PEDs, but to damn the messenger (e.g. Fainaru-Wadam etc.) is ridiculous. I don't care where the info came from. Stop preventing people from getting the facts.
If we all are working from the same set of information, then we will have a 'level playing field'.
by CystedTwister on Jan 12, 2007 2:43 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Why leaks are good news to guys like us
Man, I'd read that thing. I'd memorize it. I'd recite it. And then, after a while, I'd want more and juicier lists.
The Public (who I represent, for a fee) is voracious for this kind of thing, and wants to know!
Perhaps Mark Sweeney is on that amphetamines-flunk list.
And just to complicate things, maybe Mike Sweeney is too.
by Moggeee on Jan 12, 2007 4:48 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Are leaks really so bad???
this town thinks you're a bastard - Elvis Costello
by EliminateMe on Jan 12, 2007 6:24 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
We live in a free, but leaky society
Hell, this is baseball, fer crissakes. Give me all the dirty laundry there is. I can take it, even if it knocks down my heroes -- and Barry Bonds is one of my heroes.
The players -- boo hoo to the millionaires -- will just have to accept that fans of the game are interested enough in them to seek this kind of information.
Is teflon-coated Barry Bonds really harmed by all this? Not a chance! What's he gonna do? Be angry? Threaten to retire? Not talk to the press? Call them names?
Oh, that'll be something new.
If you're of a mind to hide the transgressions and evils of society because they are sometimes cloaked in secrecy and legalities, then a good place to live is the old Soviet Union.
Moreover, if you don't want your DUI or your sexual transgressions or your public malfeasance leaked, my opinion is don't commit such acts in the first place.
The system leaks. It's not foolproof. Squealers squeal for fun, profit, revenge, and even -- sometimes -- for noble reasons.
The Daniel Ellsbergs of the world -- the Whistle Blowers and the leak specialists -- can do a lot of good, and the harm they cause is often blown out of proportion -- usually by those on the hotseat.
by Moggeee on Jan 12, 2007 7:10 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: We live in a free, but leaky society
Privacy is privacy for everyone. I want my private life to stay private, and I'm willing to accept less juicy leaks about ballplayers and celebrities to keep it that way.
by hometownboy on Jan 12, 2007 7:48 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Alas, you make the salient point.
The great number of celebrity-like figures over the last 25 years whose AIDS condition has been "outed" constitutes a large gray area, and perhaps your best case in point.
Responsible journalism dictates great care be exercised here, but many media editors tread this zone with impunity.
by Moggeee on Jan 13, 2007 1:41 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Tired of this....
- Bonds is black, and outspoken about it, and not a "good negro" - are we really so far away from 1974? Does anyone remember what Aaron went through? Are we so naive that Bonds isn't getting his own share of death threats? I saw in another blog about "Bonds is probably an egocentric jerk like most famous people", and all we hear this week is what nice guys Gwynn and Ripken are (by the way, my understanding is that Ripken was a prick in the clubhouse). Should we have a "other people like them personally stat in the usual three tiered stats? My neighbor's a really nice guy.. does that make him the 523rd best ballplayer of all time?
- MLB would rather throw itself on a funeral pyre than open the door to the whole "everyone has used drugs forever" argument - I DO think this is legitimate point, if only that Bonds is being made the poster child to deflect this being out in the open - then, we're talking about real damage - better to have a scapegoat. Good god, I know he's not such a popular guy anyway, but do they really want chapter and verse about how much coke Joe Morgan used? As far as amphetamines, lets look at how many millions of people use them daily in this country, and most of all, let's look at that free coffee that you get at work. I'm sure that's a tradition because we all love the soothing aroma. This whole topic is reeking with denial.
- the prosecution is obviously getting desparate, or MLB is, or Sabean is sick and tired of the media circus (I sure wouldn't sign Bonds at anything but an extremely incentive laden contract). Desparate measures. Um, has anyone without an agenda actually said that Bonds implicated Sweeney? Has Sweeney's name come up from anything but "sources"? Has the player's union said "Bonds tested positive and named Sweeney"? Has Sweeney or Bonds said this? And do we really think that Bonds would be so stupid, if he was already busted, to make up such a weird and lame excuse? The man may be a pompous self-righteous egotist, but I really don't think he's that dumb.
- This is not towards you guys, but do you think that anyone has actually read the "Baseball Prospectus" type research on the effects of steroids? I don't care how many steroids you give me, I couldn't make a Rookie league team, now or ever - it just isn't like that, at best, it's marginal.
- For god sake, read some Bill James and get 100 reasons why home runs exploded in the late 90s and early 00s - change in equipment, stadiums amd style of play.
End of rant.
by Christy Mathewson on Jan 13, 2007 8:41 AM PST reply actions 0 recs
Re: Tired of this....
by Rusty the Mechanical Man on Jan 13, 2007 5:37 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

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