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Just Another Sad Hillenbrand Diary... With Numbers!

I repeat: the difference we should be analyzing from here on out is not that between Hilly/Niekro, but Hilly/Sweeney. Here is what they've done so far:

Hillenbrand: 1.1 WARP (80 games, 316 PAs, God knows how much DHing kept the WARP from sinking, as he's firmly below average--1B--to awful--3B--with the leather)
Sweeney: 1.3 WARP (73 games, 215 PAs, defense in LF actually hurts him, but defense at 1B has been excellent)
(Sh**s and Giggles) Niekro: 0.4 WARP (52 games, 191 PAs, best defensive 1B in the game)

Chulk: 4.66 FIP
Accardo 2.50 FIP(!!!)(For reference, of NL relievers who have thrown more than 35 IP, that's THIRD, and it's roughly in line with Bobby Jenks and Scot Shields's FIPs)

Using more HardballTimes metrics, not taking fielding into account:

Sweeney: 28 RC in 215 PAs (5.4 RC/G)
Accardo: 16 PRC in 40.3 IP
Total up to date: 44

Hillenbrand: 38 RC in 319 PAs (5.0 RC/G)
Chulk: 7 PRC in 24 IP
Total up to date: 45

The RC are essentially equal, except that if you adjust for playing time, the Giants got the short end of this one. To boot, the Giants have gotten the production out of their 1Bs that they can pretty much expect out of Hilly. IT'S NOT AN UPGRADE, AND WE GAVE UP ACCARDO.

It's arguable that Sweeney is the better option at 1B going forward for this season and that Hillenbrand is the one who should be coming off the bench (Hilly for lefties, Finley for righties). But, clearly, we didn't get this guy to do that; Hilly's gonna start, and thus we're screwed. In order to profit from this trade, I think Wilson/Sanchez/Chulk(?) will have to significantly outproduce Accardo, because Hilly MIGHT only be the slightest of improvements over Sweeney at 1B (since it's probably too much to expect an intelligent platoon). Best-case scenario in the next few weeks is giving Sanchez a starting role at SOME level where he shows his A-ball performance wasn't a fluke (Can we start the Free Sanchez! campaign now? What about the Wright for Bullpen! campaign?), change of scenery turns Hilly into a right handed modern day Don Mattingly with the stick for the second half, Wilson's increased role embiggens him, Bonds's injury is just a flesh wound, and Lincecum blows through the minors into the bigs to make Morris expendable before the end of August, leading to a trade of Benitez, Morris, and Wright for Mariano Rivera, Philip Hughes, Jessica Beale, Jessica Alba, and Cillian Murphy. In that scenario, we'd win the West by about two games, since the Dodgers will get a Jake Westbrook type pitcher before the deadline to give us a run for our money, and we'd all be better people because we'd have Beale, Alba, and Murphy to walk around and simply be beautiful.

This FanPost is reader-generated, and it does not necessarily reflect the views of McCovey Chronicles. If the author uses filler to achieve the minimum word requirement, a moderator may edit the FanPost for his or her own amusement.

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Re: Just Another Sad Hillenbrand Diary... With Num
I think a huge difference is that Sweeney is absolutely incapable of hitting against lefties. His RC numbers are stilted because he hasn't had many opportunities to fail against southpaws so far, and that would be exposed as an everyday first baseman. He's had 3 hits in 32 at-bats this year. So against lefties, Sweeney doesn't play or he's terrible. That makes the roster move:

Good Sweeney + Bad Sweeney/Other guy that can't hit left-handed pitching

swapped out for

A guy that is about as good as Sweeney against righties, and absolutely destroys lefties.

In addition, this allows Sweeney to be used as the bat off the bench he was meant to be, taking critcal at-bats away from Jose Vizcaino at the back end of the bench.

I don't love the trade -- I don't particularly like it -- but I can appreciate the offensive upgrade and versatility. Sweeney is very, very limited as a starter.

by Grant Brisbee on Jul 22, 2006 11:37 AM PDT reply actions  

Re: Just Another Sad Hillenbrand Diary... With Num
No, Sweeney is better than Hillenbrand vs. righties and has been for the last few years.  Hillenbrand is a thousand times better vs. LHP.  I would love it, if they did a staright RHP/LHP with Sweeney/Hillenbrand, but that won't happen, which is what Teddy was complaining about.

The big difference at 1B already happened with Sweeney for Neikro, but Hillenbrand vs. LHP and Sweeney off the bench helps, but not enough to negate the Accardo loss, IMO.

by GiantJim on Jul 22, 2006 1:08 PM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Just Another Sad Hillenbrand Diary... With Num
.285    .329    .438

.278    .377    .476

Well, that's why I wrote "almost as good". The differences are more extreme than I thought, but Hillenbrand isn't helpless: .285/.329/.438 to Sweeney's .278/.377/.476 from 2003 to 2005. That includes two years in Colorado, but I guess Hillenbrand wasn't exactly playing in the Astrodome.

I agree with you that I would like more of a strict platoon, but even without that the lineup and bench are much more balanced. Balanced enough to cost Accardo? Not really, and that's where I start to dislike the deal.

by Grant Brisbee on Jul 22, 2006 2:37 PM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Just Another Sad Hillenbrand Diary... With Num
I think we just said the same thing, except you said Sweeney was "about as good", not "almost as good", which is why I pointed out he was better.

by GiantJim on Jul 22, 2006 10:31 PM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Just Another Sad Hillenbrand Diary... With Num
I meant, you said that 'Hillenbrand' was "about as good", not "almost as good" as Sweeney vs. RHP.  But otherwise, we wrote two identical posts.

by GiantJim on Jul 23, 2006 8:26 AM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Just Another Sad Hillenbrand Diary... With Num
Just a sidenote, Mark Sweeney is one of my favorite players, and I think he's been highly underutilized throughout his career. It's sort of a shame that a guy like Shea who is somewhat overutilized in my mind is taking the job away from him.

by Marc Normandin @ McCovey Chronicles on Jul 23, 2006 10:57 AM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Just Another Sad Hillenbrand Diary... With Num
Sabean loves known quantities.  Hillenbrand has been very consistent ever since his rookie year.  Yes, he tends to tail off in the second half, but I think it's very reasonable to expect a .260 - .270 EqA from Hillenbrand for the rest of the year.

Sweeney has never been a full time starter.  Is it reasonable to expect him to continue to post a .260 EqA for the rest of the season as a full time starter, especially if he has to face LHP?

I don't feel strongly about the trade one way or the other (don't really like it, but don't hate it), but I can see where Sabean is coming from.

by Fog City Blues on Jul 22, 2006 11:51 AM PDT reply actions  

Re: Just Another Sad Hillenbrand Diary... With Num
I think it's an old school myth that part time players play worse when they are given more playing time, unless there is a platoon disadvantage.  I think Sweeney would perform generally as well as he did the last three years (avg. 116 OPS+) if he played everyday vs. RHP.

by GiantJim on Jul 22, 2006 1:27 PM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Just Another Sad Hillenbrand Diary... With Num
During the dog days of August?  I think we should remember that Sweeney is 34 and will reach a career high in ABs this year.  Once the weather gets hot, these guys will get exhausted after a long stretch.  Look what happened to Vizquel last year (admittedly older, but a MI not a CI).

by losingcalifornia on Jul 22, 2006 3:21 PM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Just Another Sad Hillenbrand Diary... With Num
I think Sweeney would perform generally as well as he did the last three years (avg. 116 OPS+) if he played everyday vs. RHP.

The thing is, I feel much more comfortable saying that Hillenbrand's true level of talent is that of a .260 - .270 EqA hitter than I do saying Sweeney's true level of talent is that of a 116 OPS+ hitter.

Hillenbrand has been an everyday player who gets 500-600 PAs a year and has put up fairly consistent numbers since his rookie year.

Here are Sweeney's OPS+ for the last few years:

2002 - 30
2003 - 81
2004 - 110
2005 - 136

Of course it's not surprising that his numbers are volatile given the sample sizes involved.  But that's my point.  I feel more comfortable projecting performance for an every day player who gets 500-600 PAs a year and puts up pretty consistent numbers than I do a part time player who gets 200 PAs a year.

Again, I'm not really a fan of the trade.  All I'm saying is that Hillenbrand is more of a known quantity than Sweeney and that was probably part of Sabean's reasoning.

by Fog City Blues on Jul 22, 2006 5:42 PM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Just Another Sad Hillenbrand Diary... With Num
Saybean in general has a hard-on for known quantities, so I don't doubt that was a big consideration.
I use my hand, to wipe my tears.

by McPeePee on Jul 22, 2006 5:44 PM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Just Another Sad Hillenbrand Diary... With Num
Again, I'll stand by my point.  Old School (Sabean) myth that part time players will get worse, when their ABs increase (not including platoon disadvantage).  It has been proven otherwise.

by GiantJim on Jul 22, 2006 10:34 PM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Just Another Sad Hillenbrand Diary... With Num
I submit that this phenomenon should be called the "Ramon Martinez Axiom."

This is based on my calling for Martinez to start over Aurilia years ago because of Martinez's better numbers in a smaller sample size, and because Aurilia had a tendency to swing at first pitches and ground to short a lot, a la Feliz.

Then Martinez got more playing time and sucked, whereas Aurilia busted out with the 37 HR/97 RBI season, and I happily admitted I was wrong.

Sabean has something of a point there, at least with regard to non-prospect types.

by North Side Chicago Expatriate Giants Fan on Jul 23, 2006 2:22 AM PDT up reply actions  

Re: Just Another Sad Hillenbrand Diary... With Num
You are correct regarding Martinez.  And that's what Giant fans remember.  But as a rule, part time players maintain their level with increased ABs.

by GiantJim on Jul 23, 2006 8:19 AM PDT reply actions  

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