Casey at the deadline
Assuming that Chad Santos isn't the answer, here's an attempt to break down the Sean Casey rumors. You will also note the games from the weekend will not be discussed:
Boston
Yankees
Toronto
Detroit
ChiSox
Minnesota
Oakland
Texas
Seattle
California
Mets
St. Louis
Cincinnati
Houston
Milwaukee
San Diego
Los Angeles
Giants
Colorado
Arizona
California
Giants
Oakland
Houston (though the hole is filled when Ensberg comes back from the D.L.)
That's it. The Pirates have two first basemen to deal, though Craig Wilson can field poorly at other positions too. Other teams will want Wilson off the bench or in the outfield, so there might be a bit more competition for his services. But it is most assuredly a buyer's market for first basemen. Looking at the list of suitors, I just don't see how Sean Casey isn't a Giant by August.
Sabean: No, you don't.
Pirates G.M.: Yeah, he's a part of the rebuiliding plans.
Sabean: No, he isn't.
Pirates G.M.: Yep. I'll need Sanchez, Hennessey, and this Frandsen kid to start.
Sabean: click
Pirates G.M.: Yello? Yelllllo?
The Angels have two underperforming prospects in Kendry Morales and Casey Kotchman, and might be in the market for a rent-a-player. Kotchman has mono, which I struggled with personally for a heck of a long time, so there are no guarantees he'll be back. Oakland would be better served to find an outfielder to replace Jay Payton, rather than give anything of substance for the modest upgrade of Sean Casey. Houston just traded for Aubrey Huff, who will go to the outfield when Ensberg gets back.
The Giants and the Angels are the only two suitors, with the Angels optimistic that a young player still might step up.
Sabean: So are you ready to stop jerking my chain?
Pirates G.M.: Hey, you're the one calling me an hour before the deadline. I hold the chips here. Hold on, I have another call.
covers the phone with his palm, and imitates the ringing of a phone
Pirates G.M.: Brrrrring! Brrrrrrrring! Hello? Well, well, well. Mr. Epstein, how nice to hear from you! Actually, Casey is still on the market. Funny you'd ask, as I was just about to deal him to San Francisco.
Sabean: If you really took another call on the same phone, I wouldn't be able to hear this.
Pirates G.M.: I'll tell you what, Theo, I'm going to have to get back to you. Sabean knows you're not really on the phone. Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Right. Well, thanks for calling.
There is a twist, as Casey is from the Pittsburgh area and might want to stay with the Pirates. A new contract could be worked out between the two, should Casey stay. The Pirates might have some weird reason for keeping Casey as some sort of hometown draw. It worked out so well for the Giants and Tyler Walker.
In a sane world, however, the Pirates have absolutely no reason to hold on to Casey. He wouldn't be a part of the next contending team in Pittsburgh, he isn't exactly Mickey Mantle in terms of drawing power, and the Pirates still owe millions to Casey. Millions. As in, wouldn't they be better served tossing those millions to the next amateur player who slides down to the sixteenth round because of a strong commitment to a university? Or starting the first international scouting program in Paraguay? Or anything that doesn't involve holding on to a marketable commodity at the expense of a rebuilding team?
Sabean: Merkin Valdez or Alfredo Simon. Pick one and I'll fax over the paperwork.
Pirates G.M.: Are you crazy?
covers the phone with his palm again
Pirates G.M.: Brrring! Brrrrring! Hello? Is this, uh, Mr., uh, Angels G.M.? Yes, Sean Casey is still available. Right. Right. What do you mean you aren't going to offer anything more than a career minor leaguer? You aren't even on the phone. I'm making this whole conver.... Right. Okay. I can see that. Well, if you change your mind, you know where... Hello? Yelllo?
If there is really a strong mutual interest between Casey and Pittsburgh, he could always pull the Sidney Ponson move; force a team to give up prospects for him, and then resign with the old team. It worked out so well for Baltimore. It's kind of a Jimmy Hart/Andy Kaufman move, but it isn't against the rules.
The Vogelsong karma was paid off tenfold with the Minnesota trade, so any sympathies along those lines are misplaced. The Giants are willing to pay the rest of the salary. They'd be fine with including Lance Niekro, I'd imagine, in addition to whatever else the Pirates would want. Casey isn't Carlos Beltran from 2004, so the Pirates shouldn't hold out for any of the top young pitchers in the Giants' organization. They have every reason to trade Casey at a discount, and the Giants have every reason to want a discounted Casey. The Angels might give chase, but they would be the only competition if they do.
0 recs |
78 comments
Comments
Re: Casey at the deadline
by Aadik on Jul 17, 2006 12:59 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
All for Casey the Giant
Winn
Viz I
Casey
Bonds
Alou
Durham
Feliz
Greene/Notgardo
Funny how much more solid the lineup looks when you take out a damn near automatic out and replace it with a professional hitter.
by W8ingForATitle on Jul 17, 2006 1:04 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Re: Casey at the deadline
by Skaldheim on Jul 17, 2006 1:05 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Jimmy Hart? Andy Kaufman?
by Salemicus on Jul 17, 2006 1:16 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Re: Jimmy Hart? Andy Kaufman?
by Stuttering John Tamargo on Jul 17, 2006 1:26 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Casey at the deadline
"The Pittsburgh Tribune-Review reported the Angels and Yankees both are very interested in infielder-outfielder Craig Wilson, but the Pirates' high price of a pitching prospect and a Major League-ready position player have held up a potential deal."
by Roger on Jul 17, 2006 1:21 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Re: Casey at the deadline
by Pants Man on Jul 17, 2006 1:24 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Casey at the deadline
by EliminateMe on Jul 17, 2006 1:30 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I've never understood that...
by WalrusMan on Jul 17, 2006 1:35 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: I've never understood that...
If he's blocked by a player at the major league level. Like Ryan Shealy in Colorado, who's blocked by Helton. Or, a better example, Ryan Howard two years ago, blocked by Thome.
You probably weren't aware of this possibility because the last time it happened with the Giants you hadn't been born yet. And neither had your parents.
by Josh from Hollywood on Jul 17, 2006 1:47 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hmmm...
Oh, no, wait. This is an awful game and it's depressing me horribly.
Wasn't McCovey blocked by Cepeda or vice versa? Christ.
by Pants Man on Jul 17, 2006 1:58 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Hmmm...
by Josh from Hollywood on Jul 17, 2006 2:20 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Hmmm...
by Roger on Jul 17, 2006 2:40 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Hmmm...
by Goofus on Jul 17, 2006 2:57 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Hmmm...
by Roger on Jul 17, 2006 3:07 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Hmmm...
by North Side Chicago Expatriate Giants Fan on Jul 17, 2006 3:15 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Hmmm...
Foster was traded for absolutely nothing. I really don't think the team thought he was ever going to amount to anything, or they would have gotten something, anything in return.
Vern Geishert and Frank Duffy? They weren't even prospects!
by North Side Chicago Expatriate Giants Fan on Jul 17, 2006 3:19 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Hmmm...
by Roger on Jul 17, 2006 3:26 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Hmmm...
Although I think if Duffy played in any All-Star Games, it must have been in AAA. Even by the standards of the 70s, he was atrocious. Even by the standards of the Indians in the 70s, he was atrocious.
by North Side Chicago Expatriate Giants Fan on Jul 17, 2006 3:33 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Hmmm...
And what did they get for that talent?
Ken Henderson AND Steve Stone were sent to the White Sox for Tom Bradley after the 1972 season. Bradley went from mediocre to terrible.
Dave Kingman was simply sold to the Mets before the 1975 season.
Sarge was let go to free agency after the 1976 season after putting up nothing but quality numbers.
Bobby Bonds was traded for Bobby Murcer after the 1974 season. Murcer was actually good, but not as good as Bonds (although everyone seemed to underrate Bonds in those days). Murcer stayed for a couple years and was traded for Bill Madlock (with some filler in the deal on both sides). That one wasn't that bad.
Garry Maddox was traded early in the 1975 season for Willie Montanez. Montanez was actually good, too, and was traded a couple years later for Darrell Evans (again, filler for both sides too). That one was a pretty good trade.
But! Foster could have moved to 1B. Bonds, Maddox, and Matthews would have been the best defensive outfield in baseball (actually, in 1973 it probably was), and they could hit! The Giants squandered it.
Sad.
by North Side Chicago Expatriate Giants Fan on Jul 17, 2006 3:53 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Hmmm...
by Pants Man on Jul 17, 2006 4:18 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Hmmm...
I had pretty much the same thoughts about Foster being a former Giant though, except that I got the information later. Remember how legendary Foster was from 1977 until Cecil Fielder hit 51 in 1990?
Wow! He had FIFTY-TWO homers! Unbelievable! Ooooooo!
Now most people probably have no idea who George Foster is.
by North Side Chicago Expatriate Giants Fan on Jul 17, 2006 4:34 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Hmmm...
by tobias on Jul 17, 2006 9:04 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Hmmm...
by Roger on Jul 18, 2006 7:33 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Hmmm...
1973... Buddy Bell
1974... Gaylord Perry, Frank Robinson and George Hendrick
1975... George Hendrick
1976... Dave La Roche
1977... Dave La Roche, Jim Kern and Dennis Eckersley
I see no evidence anywhere that Frank Duffy was ever an All Star.
http://www.baseball-reference.com/d/duffyfr01.shtml
by tobias on Jul 18, 2006 11:24 AM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Hmmm...
by Roger on Jul 18, 2006 1:08 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Hmmm...
Actually, it's fairly rare to see a great player blocked. Think of Miguel Cabrera being moved to the OF, Pujols going between 3B, LF, and 1B, or even Bonds going to LF because of Van Slyke (actually, Van Slyke came the year after Bonds came up, but the switch was easy enough).
Usually the guys that are blocked are first basemen, especially lefty throwers, who are too immobile to play the OF, and especially in the NL because there is no DH. I suppose it happens with catchers too, but the frequency of great, can't miss, strong bat catchers being developed is pretty rare.
With McCovey and Cepeda, both were with the big club, but there was a lack of playing time because Cepeda, who was most definitely the better OF, didn't want to play LF and was quite vocal about staying at 1B. McCovey was the better hitter, but he was an absolutely terrible OF.
Alvin Dark seemed to go along with whatever Cepeda said because McCovey kept quiet and Cepeda complained all the time, so McCovey, who was ROY at age 21 in 1959 (Cepeda was ROY in 1958 at 20), didn't become the regular starter until 1963 at age 25. Even in 1963, McCovey was the starter in LF, not 1B, and this continued in 1964 even though Stretch was injured a lot that year.
Finally, in 1965, when McCovey was 27, Cepeda was injured all year and McCovey became the regular 1B. Cepeda was traded very early the following season. Unfortunately, he was traded for Ray Sadecki, which was generally considered the worst trade in Giants history until a certain ill-tempered catcher came over from the Twins...
Anyway, McCovey lost, I would say conservatively, a good 40 HR and 750 AB by not starting early in his career. McCovey was the better player, but Cepeda was louder and had a better batting average, and he insisted on playing first even though the team would have been far better served by having him play OF.
The trade was considered an unmitigated disaster, but in those days, the Giants had farm system talent coming out of their ears. Compared to today, it is absolutely crazy to think about. And the talent were all fine-hitting position players (except for Juan Marichal and Gaylord Perry). Even with the player development in full swing, though, the Giants insisted on having the worst hitting SS and 2B they could find. Hal Lanier, Tito Fuentes, Dick Schofield, Jose Pagan: these guys made Neifi and VizII look like Bon.. Burk.. ok JT Snow. Let's not get too carried away.
This wasn't the first trade the Giants made to get some pitching, either. Flippy himself was traded after 1963 for a few players, the centerpiece being Bob Shaw, who actually had a great season in 1965, but that was about it.
Cepeda seems like a very cheery "Beisbol berry berry good to me - have a Cha Cha bowl!" kind of guy now, but he was something of a big whining complainer back then. If anyone is wondering why McCovey is so beloved, even more than Mays back in the day, it might have something to do with him having the hitting skill (ok almost) of Bonds and the cheerful, polite personality of JT Snow.
by North Side Chicago Expatriate Giants Fan on Jul 17, 2006 3:03 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Hmmm...
You're right, really great hitters never actually get blocked (as the Phils proved with Howard, shipping out a future member of the 500 Homer club to make room for him). The Giants have stuck McCovey nad Jim Ray Hart in the OF, and put Dave Kingman at 3B to get them into lineups. If the bat will play they'll find a place for the glove.
by Roger on Jul 17, 2006 3:11 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Hmmm...
As for the blocked topic, you're right about players being moved. Todd Helton played more OF than 1B his first call-up to the team in '97 because he was blocked by the Big Cat. When he showed he could hit, the Rockies chose not to re-sign Galarraga. There are tons of examples of that.
I do think the Pirates might have believed Bonds was a LF from the start though. He didn't have great arm, and he played in LF in college (though he was "blocked" from CF by future MLB CF Oddibe McDowell). In fact, Bonds was blocked from CF all through the early part of career -- McDowell, Van Slyke, Darren Lewis. I wonder whether Bonds played CF coming up in the minors or LF.
by Josh from Hollywood on Jul 17, 2006 3:58 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Hmmm...
As for Cepeda and his current popularity: I don't know how well-known the complaints about position and playing time were back then. It may be that the fans just didn't hear about such things from the reporters and broadcasters (maybe Roger knows?).
But it is even more amazing when you consider that in the mid-70s Cepeda was arrested at San Juan Airport while trying to pick up 150 pounds of weed. That put him in prison for almost a year and kept him out of the HOF for 20 years. I would imagine that the average Giants fan would be far less likely to denigrate him for that than the fans of most teams, but it was a pretty big deal at the time.
Back then Cepeda was dealing in a whole different kind of Cha Cha Bowl.
by North Side Chicago Expatriate Giants Fan on Jul 17, 2006 5:05 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
The weed I knew about.
by Josh from Hollywood on Jul 17, 2006 5:29 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Hmmm...
by obsessivegiantscompulsive on Jul 19, 2006 7:05 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Hmmm...
by Josh from The New Giant Thrill on Jul 17, 2006 3:01 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Hmmm...
by EliminateMe on Jul 17, 2006 3:02 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Hmmm...
by Roger on Jul 17, 2006 3:05 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Hmmm...
by Josh from The New Giant Thrill on Jul 17, 2006 3:15 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Hmmm...
by dangjackson on Jul 17, 2006 3:29 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Hmmm...
I can't remember exactly, but I am pretty sure that he was injured in early June and didn't go to Phoenix until he had a rehab assignment in late July. He was back with the big club at the end of July and pinch-hit for a week or so. Although he wasn't hitting that well when he left the big club, I am pretty sure that the absence wasn't because he needed more seasoning, or he would have had more ABs with Phoenix.
Does anyone remember the injury?
by North Side Chicago Expatriate Giants Fan on Jul 17, 2006 3:31 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Hmmm...
I'll leave it to the next person to describe exactly what he had...
by obsessivegiantscompulsive on Jul 19, 2006 7:07 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Hmmm...
On this site?
by Josh from Hollywood on Jul 17, 2006 3:38 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Hmmm...
by Goofus on Jul 17, 2006 4:15 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Hmmm...
Spilman was brought over to be a pinch hitter. Aldrete was always going to be an OF. He only played 37 games at 1B in 1986. The Giants absolutely knew he would be the starter, and he did play 102 games at 1B in 1986.
No one was going to block the Thrill. And after 1985, there was no one to block him anyway. David Green? Broken down Dan Driessen?
by North Side Chicago Expatriate Giants Fan on Jul 17, 2006 3:12 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sorry fellas...
by North Side Chicago Expatriate Giants Fan on Jul 17, 2006 3:14 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Hmmm...
by dangjackson on Jul 17, 2006 3:34 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
I see why if he's in your organization...
by WalrusMan on Jul 17, 2006 2:02 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Casey at the deadline
by zenbitz on Jul 17, 2006 1:33 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Grey Boxes = Comedy Gold (This is not a recording)
"Pirates G.M.: Brrring! Brrrrring! Hello? Is this, uh, Mr., uh, Angels G.M.?"
Oh yeah, and I agree with the whole baseball analysis part, too.
by Josh from Hollywood on Jul 17, 2006 1:39 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
The Vogelsong Karma
by Evan on Jul 17, 2006 1:55 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Re: Casey at the deadline
2006 : .305/.411/.381/.792
2005 : .298/.361/.419/.780
Sweeney vs. righties:
2006 : .301/.365/.516/.881
2005 : .303/.402/.493/.895
Casey on the road:
2006 : .341/.433/.489/.922
2005 : .330/.389/.451/.840
Sweeney on the road:
2006 : .310/.410/.607/1.017
2005 : .305/.401/.500/.901
I can't help but think that simply removing Niekro's at-bats from the equation is going to help the offense as much as a trade for Casey would. Sweeney is helpless against lefties (and Casey surprisingly deadly), but that hole could be filled cheaply with an Eduardo Perez-ish journeyman. Besides, Santos is at 1.000/1.000/1.000/2.000 vs. lefties in his career.
by Pants Man on Jul 17, 2006 2:16 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Re: Casey at the deadline
by orangeandblackattack on Jul 17, 2006 3:42 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Casey at the deadline
Plus, Eduardo Perez would have been a great pickup, he was available, and the Indians were ready to sell because they were so far out of it.
The Mariners already traded for Perez.
Craig Wilson would be a very good fit. I don't know if Sabean wants to play games with Littlefield, though. He seems to want an awful lot for a guy that they have been unwilling to make a regular starter. On a brutal team.
by North Side Chicago Expatriate Giants Fan on Jul 17, 2006 3:59 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Casey at the deadline
by lunaticfringe1 on Jul 17, 2006 2:38 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Re: Casey at the deadline
by lunaticfringe1 on Jul 17, 2006 2:39 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Re: Casey at the deadline
by dangjackson on Jul 17, 2006 3:30 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Casey at the deadline
by North Side Chicago Expatriate Giants Fan on Jul 17, 2006 3:59 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Casey at the deadline
by EliminateMe on Jul 17, 2006 4:22 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Grant's impact
Apparantly there are no guarantees when Kotchman will be back because Grant personally struggled with mono for a heck of a long time.
Grant Brisbee, leaving his mark on the game.
by Goofus on Jul 17, 2006 2:52 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Re: Grant's impact
by dangjackson on Jul 17, 2006 3:31 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Grant's impact
by Josh from Hollywood on Jul 17, 2006 3:37 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Grant's impact
by Grant on Jul 17, 2006 5:02 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Grant's impact
by Goofus on Jul 17, 2006 5:20 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Grant's impact
The Pulitzer committee shant hear of that story, however....
by Grant on Jul 17, 2006 5:28 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Casey at the deadline
by lunaticfringe1 on Jul 17, 2006 2:55 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Re: Casey at the deadline
I think he only plays 1B when Broussard sits against LHP, right?
by North Side Chicago Expatriate Giants Fan on Jul 17, 2006 4:03 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Casey at the deadline
by Goofus on Jul 17, 2006 2:58 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Re: Casey at the deadline
by Roger on Jul 17, 2006 3:16 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
"....but is in an 8 for 45 slump."
by E Ticket on Jul 17, 2006 5:57 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
If you were going to do that
by Nick Schulte on Jul 17, 2006 3:18 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Casey at the deadline
by North Side Chicago Expatriate Giants Fan on Jul 17, 2006 4:04 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Casey at the deadline
by lunaticfringe1 on Jul 17, 2006 4:13 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Nice
I didn't realize there are so few teams in position to want Casey. If he's cheap, great. If not, we've still got Mark Sweeney and the Pirates over played their hand.
by Dan from NM on Jul 17, 2006 4:48 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Pirates over played their hand.
by E Ticket on Jul 17, 2006 6:00 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Pirates over played their hand.
by Lipssan1 on Jul 17, 2006 6:20 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs
Rocks falling apart
by Lipssan1 on Jul 17, 2006 6:42 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Re: Casey at the deadline
It's time to be a seller, not a buyer -- though Magowan and Sabean don't have the cojones to do anything about it. The Giants are a fundamental nightmare (how can you try to score on a fly ball with Bonds up next!) with a mediocre present and no future. The worst thing that could have happened this year has happened -- the NL West is awful, so the Giants are still in the race. What we needed was for a team to break the race open early and stay there. Too bad -- we're going to (stink) for years.
by drdon on Jul 17, 2006 10:37 PM PDT reply actions 0 recs
Re: Casey at the deadline
I disagree. With a future starting rotation of (take your pick) Cain, Lowry, Lincecum, Sanchez, Hennessey, or maybe someone among Joaquin, Martis, Griffin, Pereira, etc., our rotation should be good for a long time, plus Accardo, Wilson, Correia, Valdez, plus others filling the bullpen, that should be good for a long time as well, with replacement pitcher parts coming out of ears should anyone falters.
So our pitching staff is set for the foreseeable future, we have a pitcher's park (of sorts), we have a big budget that we can then use to get the position players we lack (or trade for big money players other teams want to get rid of for lesser prospects), and a crummy NL West, I think we should be competitive for a long time going forward.
by obsessivegiantscompulsive on Jul 19, 2006 7:20 PM PDT up reply actions 0 recs

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