Cainterpoint
by Grant Brisbee on May 11, 2006 10:39 AM PDT
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PrintOur wunderkind has come down with a case of Salomonella, which can be common with a young pitcher who's rushed. Matt Cain had a problem with home runs in AAA, and it's carried over to the majors. His two biggest problems are free passes and homers, and he's become efficient at getting both problems out of the way in the same inning of each game.
What to do? There's an argument to be made for keeping him in the rotation, and learning against major league hitters. There's an argument to be made for sending him down to Fresno for a shot of confidence. Two sides to an issue? That sounds like a job for a recurring gag...
Counterpoint: So, the problem is that he's throwing an enchanted four-seamer of wonder, which can only be hit by proven major leaguers? Come on. The problem is location, and that's a problem he can fix in Fresno.
Point: But his location mistakes in Fresno will be forgiven a lot more often, which could lead to an illusion of progress. He has to figure out what he can and can't do against big league hitters, and there's no time like the present.
Counterpoint: Even if he knew what he could get away with against MLB batters, he can't pitch that fine yet. It comes back to the command. He needs to work on his mechanics, or his release point, or something. Besides, the Giants just banished Brad Hennessey to the bullpen, and he did nothing to deserve a demotion. Put him back in the rotation, and see if he can stay hot.
Point: Hennessey? Feh. The Giants already have a guy in the rotation who can't strike anyone out in Jamey Wright. They don't need another. Hennessey would have a string of three starts with five earned runs given up in each, and everyone would start getting worked up over him. Keep Cain where he is, and let him learn the hard way.
Counterpoint: I'm just worried a youngster like Cain will start pressing, and his frustration will get something else out of whack. He'll start trying to overthrow, or something. Don't you remember what it was like to be 21? Everything was the end of the world, and I can't even imagine what it would be like if you had the pressure Cain has on him.
Point: Do I remember what it was like to be 21? Hmm, I'll try. Spring days. Skipping class. Not a care in the world. Getting drunk at 11:00 in the morning? Why not? Sunning myself in the quad. Scouting out the hotties. Skipping more class. Meeting exciting new people; people who didn't know how quickly life will drag them down. Drag us all down.
One day you're doing a Jello shooter off the backside of an underwear model, the next you're taxiing three brats to swimming practice. Noses runny, spilling juice on the upholstery; every now and again, I fantasize about holding one of their heads underwater. Not to kill them, of course. Just to scare them. Just so they know that whoever brings them in this world can see them out. Though I'd need a DNA test to make sure I actually did bring them in this world. No one in my family has ears that stick out like that, and neither does anyone in your family. If you're going to cheat on me, you could at least do it with someone who didn't have such crazy ears.
Counterpoint: ....
Point: What?
Counterpoint: ....
Point: I guess this means I win. Cain stays in the majors.
If you're new to the site, see, the gag is that the two are married, and have more problems than just being on the opposite site of an issue, and...ah, forget it.
I'm about 60% in favor of keeping Cain in the big leagues, and 40% hoping he rights the ship in the minors. It's not an easy situation at all. Sometimes it's nice to have an easy decision, like getting rid of Jason Christiansen last season.
These ambiguous decisions...I'm not a fan. The first thing I'd do as a general manager is get rid of the tough decisions. Then everything that followed would be an easy decision, and I'd be right most of the time. Sometimes Brian Sabean needs to think out of the box like that.
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Re: Cainterpoint
Re: Cainterpoint
I think I'm more 75/25 on Matt staying in the majors to work on things, but I could see a day where, after 3-4 more bad outings with NO progress, I'd send him to Fresno. I don't think his makeup is such that he'd be crushed by getting sent down. But I'm mostly persuaded by the Point argument that (a) he might gain only phantom improvement against lesser competition, and (b) ultimately he's got to learn to do those shooters off the stomachs of models in San Francisco, not in Fresno.
by Lyle @ McCovey Chronicles on May 11, 2006 11:01 AM PDT reply actions
Good to...
Re: Cainterpoint
Felipe: What do you intend to do sir? Cain's already on probation.
Brian: He is?
Felipe: Yes, Sir.
Brian: Oh. Then as of this moment, he's on DOUBLE SECRET PROBATION!
Felipe: Double Secret Probation, Sir?
Brian: There is a little-known codicil in the San Francisco Giants constitution which gives the General Manager unlimited power to preserve order in time of a pitching emergency. Find me a way to revoke Cain's charter. The time has come for someone to put their foot down. And that foot is me.
Re: Cainterpoint
There may come a time when I think we need to send Cain to Fresno, but I'm not there yet. Hang in there, kid.
See the problem with Fresno
I'd keep him up, with the knowledge that he's learning, keep Correia at the ready, and look for the small victories.
by The Balls of Summer on May 11, 2006 11:37 AM PDT reply actions
Count/Pointercount
by Stuttering John Tamargo on May 11, 2006 11:38 AM PDT reply actions
Re: Cainterpoint
We all knew he would struggle, right? Well, most of us did. The good part is that last night his stuff looked overwhelming when he could control it. He can learn at this level with Matheny, Righetti, Morris, and Schmidt as his tutors better than working at it in the minors. Keep the kid in the rotation!
Re: Cainterpoint
I like the Lowry example, Mx, I would also throw out Blanton and, if I remember right, Haren from last year, they both were struggling in May but then turned things around for the rest of the season (but if you've seen Blanton's numbers, he either regressed or just don't like pitching early in the season)
To Lyle, I was thinking the same thing, SNL. I think I'm more 95% stay. Cain says he prefers to stay so I think mentally he might suffer if sent down.
I agree with Sayhey that all the better tutors are up here, particularly other vet pitchers who have "been there" and can help him out, down in Fresno what common experiences will he have with the staff down there regarding struggling in the majors. Plus, as I've noted before, he has actually pitched well peripheral-wise early in the season, kind of like how Blanton was good in April, then lost it in May and just need to adjust back to the MLB batters. He needs to do that here for long-term results, putting him in Fresno to "boost" his confidence is just a bandaid, it's nothing permanent, if he's our guy for the future, we need to show him the confidence.
My 5% is if he really loses it mentally up here and need a mental break. I don't really see that happening to him, he seems to be pretty mature. (But then Jerome seemed pretty mature too until he wasn't...)
As Sayhey so aptly put it, rookies struggle, they aren't like established vets who you can rely on for a certain performance, you need to let him work his kinks out because if he is going to have a long career - and we all want that - he will need to learn out to battle back against MLB batters.
by obsessivegiantscompulsive on May 11, 2006 11:54 AM PDT reply actions
Re: Cainterpoint
Posts feauring shaded boxes in them = Comedy
Posts featuring Point/Counterpoint = High Comedy
As for Cain, I'm sorry, but I'm with Counterpoint on this one (but my ears don't stick out, so don't get any ideas). I'd send Cain down for a bit. The reasons are two-fold:
- His command is terrible. Did you see how far that fastball Jones hit out was from the target? That is something he can work on in Fresno. Yes, he may get away with more location mistakes there, but it still something you can judge by watching video (How often does he hit the target?, How far off is he?, etc.)
- He needs to work on his breaking pitches. Both have the potential to be great, but neither can be counted on at anytime, so hitters can sit on the fastball, which at this level, pretty much equals death. I've thought maybe Matheny should just have him throw like 80% breaking balls in some game, just to get him to improve his consistency with them, but you'd probably be sacrificing the game, and again, that can't be done at this level.
by Josh from Hollywood on May 11, 2006 12:16 PM PDT reply actions
Re: Cainterpoint
And, what is up with the FOX radar guns? Is Cain really throwing 97 and an ocassional 98? Carlos Zambano touching 97?
Re: Cainterpoint
Long relief is my desire - especially because it would limit his innings.
Or, he could be traded for Aubrey Huff and Joey Gathright. In which case, I would buy stock in Acme Cyanide Pills, Inc. And a nice hunting rifle.
Re: Cainterpoint
Hennessey can take over 5th starter.
Re: Cainterpoint
All he needs to do is watch a replay of the first inning of yesterday's game. Again and again. And again. Maybe that will give him confidence.
by Bred on Albany Hill on May 11, 2006 2:16 PM PDT reply actions
Re: Cainterpoint
True Cain does need to work on locating his pitches better, but that's something he can do as a major leaguer.
Cain's problem is simple. The only pitch he can throw for a strike consistently is his 4 seamer. He needs to go somewhere where he's not allowed to throw a fastball or more than say one FB per at bat. Staying in the bigs isn't going to force him to throw his curve, slider or change on any kind of consistent basis, so it will become kind of self-perpetuating cycle where his offspeed pitches degrade while he relies on his 4 seamer.
Might be better to send him all the way down to Connecticut where he can work on his offspeed stuff. Hell, if he just has one other pitch he can throw besides the fastball he'll do OK. Even if we were going to lose an extra six or eight games without him it's worth it to get him back with a feel for his curve in mid-July.
by orangeandblackattack on May 11, 2006 2:24 PM PDT reply actions
Re: Cainterpoint
Re: Cainterpoint
by Josh from Hollywood on May 11, 2006 2:57 PM PDT up reply actions
Re: Cainterpoint
To me Cain's problem is obvious, he doesn't have a breaking pitch that is effective against lefties and he is unwilling to throw his fastball up and in which is the only place it can be effective against lefties. These problems are not going to be solved by keeping Cain in the rotation. Cain needs to go down and he needs to go down now. He needs to be told that he either needs to learn to be nasty (throw inside to lefties) or develope a two seamer that will break away from lefties (or better yet both) and then he will be brought back up to stay.
Re: Cainterpoint
Re: Cainterpoint
Contrast that with his bad pitches, and it seems he ls landing and spinning on his heel affecting his release point
Mechs are hard to straighten out during a game. I could be wrong, but thats the first place I would look (footwork and leg balance) if a drop n drive pitcher is having problems with location. Its even more magnified with his offspeed stuff simply because he has to be more fine with his release point on a breaking ball.
The thing is, you can't see it closely enough from the dugout. The best location to pick that up is directly behnind homeplate or, with the centerfield camera. I am really struck by his composure. A+ so far. If he's frustrated, he sure doesn't show it. I say keep him up here, and see if Rags and Gardner can do anything with him.
If he gets batted around again, I don't think it will affect him. When he gets batted around, its not because he's throwing his good stuff. He realizes he is getting beat on bad pitches and locations. If he believed he was throwing as well as he could, and was getting beat, then thats when the confidence takes a hit.
Pitching consistency is difficult even for the best of pitchers (to wit Roy Oswalt Monday Night) It takes a long time. I think Cain understands and more importantly accepts that fact.
One other note, it appears he has dropped a little of the gut he was developing after they broke camp. That could help account for his fb picking up some velocity. I am really enjoying watching Cain develop. He's learning a lot, and is meeting adversity probably for the first time since he was probably 10 years old. His deportment on the mound is exemplerary--as is Lowry's. The future bodes well, barring injuries for both.
by E Ticket on May 11, 2006 8:33 PM PDT reply actions
1993
by tdenevi on May 11, 2006 9:46 PM PDT reply actions
Re: Cainterpoint
by Christy Mathewson on May 11, 2006 10:45 PM PDT reply actions
Re: Cainterpoint
And I am on the send him down side. Heck, Cain is mature enough to handle the discouragement. Losing game after game up here is at least as discouraging. And he would have clear instructions such as: tell management if the foot needs to rest; develop another pitch to throw vs lefties; don't put fresh pineapple in jello; watch video and assess control, mechanics, etc; set limits on Mexican baked goods and other Fresno delights.
I'm of
I could live with Cain either as a long man or in AAA. The benefits and detriments to each have been chronicled above. If Cain pitches long relief, he gets to practice vs. major leaguers in a less stressful evnironment, but may not get enough innings to stay sharp (except perhaps when Morris starts). If Cain goes down to Fresno, he gets guarenteed work, but is not practicing vs. major leaguers.
by GiantJim on May 12, 2006 12:39 PM PDT reply actions
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