No puns about Winn Shares, please
The contract extension given to Randy Winn wasn't cheap. That's about all I'm convinced of. The pros and cons bounce back and forth in my mind, with a firm opinion seemingly far off. If you try and do a Point/Counterpoint with something like this, you end up with:
Counterpoint: YOU DON'T HAVE THE GUTS! (Rips open buttoned shirt, and pounds chest) C'MON! I DARE YOU!
Something that could help would be some sort of adaptation of the Keltner List for free agents and extended contracts. This is an off-the-cuff attempt, so there are definitely questions I've neglected:
Is the contract at or close to market value?
I'd guess it to be close. Jacque Jones was a semi-valid comparison, though I take Winn. Mark Kotsay's contract was very similar in price/length, but the players differ in value, with Kotsay being more valuable defensively, and Winn being more valuable with his history of staying off the disabled list.
Can the player be expected to age well over the life of the deal?
Yes. Winn has a skills set that tends to age well. Baseball Prospectus' PECOTA reinforces that opinion better than I would have ever imagined, though you'll have to subscribe or buy the book to get the specifics. (Unlike a vocal minority over at the former Baseball Primer, I still think it's a good deal to subscribe and buy the book. End plug.)
Is the team lacking someone from within the organization who could achieve similar results for a lower cost?
Yes in the present, and yes for the foreseeable future. Fred Lewis has his supporters, but he's a 25-year old tools player still learning how to play the game. His stats in AA, even taking into account the second-half surge, weren't overwhelming enough to ignore other long-term options. Any of the lesser prospects could break through, like Clay Timpner, but no one to feel comfortable relying on.
Was he a preferable option to what could be found in future free agent markets?
Here's where I really like the deal. This offseason saw the Yankees and Red Sox frantically scramble for center fielders. The Yankees ended up paying a bajillion dollars for one, and the Red Sox coughed up one of baseball's best prospects for another. Future offseasons don't look much better. After 2006, the cream of the crop is Juan Pierre, followed by Dave Roberts. If the A's don't lock up Milton Bradley - or if anyone else doesn't lock him up, for that matter - he could be available as well. That would not be the group to find a long-term solution in.
After 2007, both Andruw Jones and Vernon Wells might be available, but no one else of note would be. The Giants could count on their ability to outbid for either, and count on the premise that one or both would want to come to San Francisco, but a bird-in-the-hand philosophy starts making sense at that point.
To the best of our knowledge, is the player free of any injuries with the potential to impact future performance?
Yes.
Does the player's value justify any budget limitations that the contract might cause?
Here's where I start to question the deal. The contract ain't cheap. Is Winn good enough to justify it? He's consistent, and has a good injury history. As a poster pointed out, so did Ray Durham. If a Giants center fielder hits like Winn has over the past three years, I'm ecstatic. If my Giants center fielder hits like Winn did over the last three months of the season, I'm likely to tattoo his face on a buttock or two. However, is the difference between a .290/.350/.440 center fielder worth $6M more than a .260/.330/.390 center fielder like Jason Ellison? Maybe, but things start to get fuzzy at that point.
Winn takes some heat for his defense in center, but I'm pleased with his defense. If you aren't convinced by my sub-amateur scouting, there is always the typical stat-based defensive consensus to fall back on. PMR isn't a fan of Winn in center, Baseball Prospectus sees him as average, and Win Shares has him as one of the best 15 outfielders in baseball. Glad I could clear that up for you.
In Alan Schwarz's book, The Numbers Game, there's mention of the future of defensive statistics, and how it will be based on some advanced 3-D camera modeling. It will take multiple factors into consideration - such as the angle of balls off the bat, and the speed of batted balls -- and it sounds fascinating. Until then, it's tough to come to any sort of conclusion based on defensive statistics. I'll stand by my claim that Winn looks okay in center, which combined with his offense makes him a pretty valuable player. If his contract means the Giants can't spend on a Vlad-sized talent, it's a bad contract. I don't believe that to be the case, though. It's expensive, but not outrageous. A half-hearted yes to the initial question.
I didn't expect the initial run of the Winn test to go so well, but it's worth noting Edgardo Alfonzo would have aced a good portion of it before coming to the Giants. Is the test great science? Hardly. A fun tool? Sure. Any suggestions on how to refine it are welcome, and probably necessary.
Consensus
Two Darryl Hamiltons up. The factor that pushed me over the edge were the predictive stats from Baseball Prospectus. They aren't infallible, but they're the best available to peons like myself. I was wrong with my initial reaction to the Winn trade, as I gave Jason Ellison way, way, way too much credit. I hope I'm more prescient with my opinion on Winn as a Giant for the next four years.
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Re: No puns about Winn Shares, please
I just posted this on the other thread while Grant was posting his column. I found the Kotsay comparison remarkable...
Today's Chron mentioned Kotsay's 3-year extension for $22mil as a comparison. That's probably a better yardstick for looking at Winn's deal.
Winn is 31 with 8 ML seasons , Kotsay is 30 with 9.
Look at their remarkably similar career lines (it had to have come up in contract discussions):
Winn: 288/346/425
Kotsay: 286/341/424
Both are good outfielders. Winn is faster (important with our big centerfield and slow old corner outfielders) and Kotsay has the superior arm.
Given the that Winn is coming off his best performance ever, he's probably worth the extra $1.25mil (if you assume Kotsay's deal was fair).
(I liked the "locking up Milton Bradley" bit)
Re: No puns about Winn Shares, please
Yesterday, I said that i hoped the deal was for $20 mil or under, and that I'd choke back my vomit if it was for $25. So until I read all this, my feeling about the deal was one of... well, barely not having to choke back my vomit. But after reading Grant's post and your stats, I feel a lot better.
Back to the defense, for one more bit of ranting: I just can't believe how much people quote and rely on metrics that are so obviously flawed. 2 or 3 years ago I saw one which said J.T. Snow HURT the team defensively while Bonds helped. Also, one which had Moises Alou as a better defender than Steve Finley. Whenever someone quotes one, I always assume their are two more which would contradict that one. I don't know how they all work, just that they really don't. Sermon over.
By the way, Grant, do Point and Counterpoint have representation? I'm looking for someone to do punch up work on a straight-to-DVD action flick called EXTREME JUSTICE, starring Tom Berenger and Kari Wuhrer. They're very talented, I think they'd be perfect.
by Josh from Hollywood on Mar 1, 2006 1:40 PM PST up reply actions
Re: No puns about Winn Shares, please
As Grant pointed out, the biggest difference has been Winn's durability. Kotsay's good for about 140 games and Winn will give you about 18 more games a year.
Given that Winn has been healthier and appears to be more in his prime just now, I like the Winn deal better.
Re: No puns about Winn Shares, please
by Josh from Hollywood on Mar 1, 2006 2:23 PM PST up reply actions
Re: No puns about Winn Shares, please
by Martin BiasedGiantsFanatic on Mar 1, 2006 9:58 PM PST up reply actions
Re: No puns about Winn Shares, please
Re: No puns about Winn Shares, please
That's a very astute observation, I wish I had thought of that. That brings to mind a rule of thumb I got from Ron Shandler's book: "SBC Corollary: SBC Park does not turn bad pitchers into good pitchers; it only turns good pitchers into better pitchers." Now it's making more sense to me. Thanks, it's so clear to me now.
If this rule does hold, then we have the potential for a really good, perhaps great, staff, one of the best in the league. I consider our 1-4 pitchers to all be good pitchers and Wright has been good on the road (like 4.01 or 2 ERA on the road) and hopefully that's the version we get this year, not last year's model.
by Martin BiasedGiantsFanatic on Mar 2, 2006 9:41 AM PST up reply actions
Re: No puns about Winn Shares, please
Someone more statistically inclined is welcome to correct any misinformation.
by Grant Brisbee on Mar 2, 2006 9:47 AM PST up reply actions
That's the way I understand it
Another reason why the park's effect on mortal hitters is muted... check out Barry's 2004 home splits:
.412/.638/.962/1.600
Let me repeat that. The home splits for a 40-year-old man playing in a cold weather ballpark with a 23-foot-high wall jutting out to 421 feet in his power alley:
.412/.638/.962/1.600
Re: No puns about Winn Shares, please
Another anomaly over the past two years was Alfonzo inexplicably hit way better at home than on the road. In 2005, OPS was .764 at home, .577 on road. Others contributing to this in 2005 include Alou (.953/.886), Winn (1.120/1.021), Ellison (.760/.602), Matheny (.739/.666), Grissom (.603/.479). Note that many of them are newer players. Of course, there were others who hit better elsewhere and that evened things out, OPS was virtually the same home and road.
Likewise, there are anomalies for pitchers as well. Obviously there are those who pitch better at home than on the road. Those pitching otherwise include Hennessey (5.77/3.86), Eyre (4.01/1.30), Correia (4.12/4.05), Walker (5.53/3.18), Cain (2.73/1.80), Christiansen (5.91/4.79), Brower (7.79/4.85).
Sharp dichotomy there, mostly relievers and starters with not that many innings pitched who pitched better away, suggesting small sample effect could wipe that away the next year. Plus, since it was mainly starters who pitched better at home, the overall ERA is better at home than on the road (4.26/4.45), but not much better.
One thing that would help judge how tough things were would be if baseball stats would include a strength of schedule stat showing, say, the overall ERA for the pitchers who pitched against the Giants, both for home and road. That would help us better judge where the shift in park factor come from. Maybe it was a fluke year when all the best starters played in SF and vice-versa.
by Martin BiasedGiantsFanatic on Mar 3, 2006 2:19 PM PST up reply actions
Re: No puns about Winn Shares, please
* "tremendous potential upside" is a trademark of Hubie Brown, and used here without his expressed written consent.
by Josh from Hollywood on Mar 1, 2006 3:05 PM PST up reply actions
Re: No puns about Winn Shares, please
Also, as much as I love Vernon Wells, I'm for this deal because of the CF options in the future and because I think that Winn is aging well and will play a solid game for the length of the deal. I personally think that he's a "young" 32 (31?). As I noted before, I also think that we'll have to wait and see the element of his happiness to be playing back "home."
I'm with Grant, a BP subscription and having the book is $ well spent.
Either way, we're all pulling for him now, eh? Welcome Randy...please (pleading voice) make us happy.
by Kent @ McCovey Chronicles on Mar 1, 2006 5:20 PM PST up reply actions
My biggest stat-head pet peeve...
Just today BP linked to a stat-heavy article about the Pirates defense in the Pittsburgh Post Gazette, which briefly discussed Chris Duffy's impressive "zone rating":
"Of the National League center fielders who started at least 25 games, Duffy finished third in zone rating at .920, behind Randy Winn of the Giants (.925) and Luis Terrero of the Diamondbacks (.922)..."
So, we just signed the love child of Willie Mays and Andruw Jones... what's the problem?
Re: No puns about Winn Shares, please
Sure he looks good. But he has the range of a tree.
I'm not saying he did or didn't - but you cannot discount a metric (defensive or otherwise) because it doesn't jib with your observations.
Otherwise, Steve Garvey would be in the HOF.
Re: No puns about Winn Shares, please
Re: No puns about Winn Shares, please
by Martin BiasedGiantsFanatic on Mar 1, 2006 9:56 PM PST up reply actions
If you're not moving very fast
by Nick Schulte on Mar 2, 2006 10:14 AM PST up reply actions
Darren would have been safe, though...
Re: No puns about Winn Shares, please
Second of all, he may be a good athelete - but he was (is) slower than molassas in january so he's not THAT good.
Third, what does atheticism have to do with fielding grounders? Part... but also instinct, positioning, etc.
The reason defensive metrics call Snow an average (or sometimes worse) fielder is because he doesn't get many assists (?) or ground out/assists or unassisted p/os.
From memory, his zone ratings and defensive averages (showing my age) and other range-based stuff never showed him to be anything special.
He was good at scooping throws certainly, made some spectacualar plays on pop ups - but frankly, this the number of additional outs this is comes out to be insignificant.
Now, just to CYA, I actually don't know that his range is really bad - just that every stat that ever measured range (in my memory) did not show he was anything special.
Defensive stats have their issues - but you cannot dismiss them because they say Snow was an average or below average fielder.
Anyone have the BP defensive numbers on snow?
Re: No puns about Winn Shares, please
(Incidentally, this is biased logic, but I'd have to think that the Red Sox would have pretty good metrics at their disposal. If they signed him to be defensive whiz, I tend to think they know something. But feel free to disregard that completely.)
The best advice I ever heard for defense was that all metrics have large margins of error, but if they're in agreement, the margin of error is much less and they're probably telling you something.
by lyricalkiller on Mar 2, 2006 5:13 PM PST up reply actions
Re: No puns about Winn Shares, please
My knee-jerk reaction was "What??", but that's mostly based on experience. Don't forget the last move we saw across the ticker: "Giants trade for Steve Finley."
After some time to reflect, I'm happy with the deal. We could do a lot worse.
Re: No puns about Winn Shares, please
by orangeandblackattack on Mar 1, 2006 1:47 PM PST reply actions
Hi, I'm Brian; & I'm a veteraholic
by Lyle @ McCovey Chronicles on Mar 1, 2006 3:26 PM PST reply actions
Re: Hi, I'm Brian; & I'm a veteraholic
Re: Hi, I'm Brian; & I'm a veteraholic
AWESOME work
by amoose on Mar 1, 2006 5:00 PM PST up reply actions
Re: Hi, I'm Brian; & I'm a veteraholic
Re: No puns about Winn Shares, please
That is what he remarked about himself when chatting it up on the knbr yesterday with Rick Barry. He himself said to not make too much out of his late season sprint. He mentioned that when his 2005 season was taken as a whole, he found his stats to be comparable to what he has done in past years.
Fine with me. I'll take his predictible and consistent .288-.346-.425 and hope he pushes for an ops around .800. I like his style. I like his demeanor.
I wouldn't bet the bank on Jason Ellison being a total bust either this year. Just a hunch.
by E Ticket on Mar 1, 2006 3:58 PM PST reply actions
You have..
Re: No puns about Winn Shares, please
http://www.thebaseballcube.com/players/G/luis-gonzalez.shtml
Re: No puns about Winn Shares, please
His price would likely only go down after this season, and there won't be much of a market for him this year anyway IMO.
The only reasons to sign an extention are:
A) You feel the player will raise his value upon becoming a free agent, either by his play or high demand on an open market
B) He gives you a big discount
Did either of these apply here?
Re: No puns about Winn Shares, please
Peak Value?
Re: No puns about Winn Shares, please
C) he's irreplaceable
Look what Boston...
Re: No puns about Winn Shares, please
Rather than a Vlad like player, I would like to see 3 or 4 Winn types - $8-10 mil types - as we re tool our outfield and 2nd base.
Re: No puns about Winn Shares, please
by Kent @ McCovey Chronicles on Mar 1, 2006 5:23 PM PST up reply actions
Re: No puns about Winn Shares, please
Vlad (or vlad-like) players don't make 23-30M a season . It's more like two, or maybe two an a half, Winns for every Vlad, and at that ratio I'd much rather have the Vlad.
Re: No puns about Winn Shares, please
Unless you think Winn is going to repeat it, I don't see his value doing up. Who would give him 3/24 anyway? If he repeats, definitely he'd be able to, but I don't think that's very likely. If you do think last year was Winn turning the corner at age 31 (Gonzo did it) then it's safe to believe that this a good deal.
I just don't, and it's not because I don't like Winn, but it was just unnecessary to do NOW...I would've waited
Re: No puns about Winn Shares, please
And before anyone says "it's not like there were any better options on the market" - remember that this problem should have been solved over a year ago - instead of exercising the option on Marquis Grissom.
by gdog @ McCovey Chronicles on Mar 1, 2006 8:43 PM PST up reply actions
Re: No puns about Winn Shares, please
Plus Grissom costed us $2.5M if I recall correctly, so I don't think we could have gotten a long term solution at that price, so I'm assuming you would not sign the same FAs as Sabean and thus had a different mix of FA signings. Who would you have gotten instead?
by Martin BiasedGiantsFanatic on Mar 1, 2006 9:49 PM PST up reply actions
Re: No puns about Winn Shares, please
Just because Sabean gave himself no better options in 2006 doesn't mean he somehow did the right thing.
by gdog @ McCovey Chronicles on Mar 2, 2006 11:06 AM PST up reply actions
Re: No puns about Winn Shares, please
by gdog @ McCovey Chronicles on Mar 2, 2006 11:12 AM PST up reply actions
Re: No puns about Winn Shares, please
As an aside and in my opinion, this is an example of the failure of the Giants farm system. Yes, our farm system is deeper than casual observers may be willing to admit. I know that. But, at present we seem to bring our position players along very slowly. To wit: Fred Lewis does not equal Randy Winn. Hell, maybe Sanders could be turned into an OFer...
Welcome home Randy, best of luck and please make us happy.
by Kent @ McCovey Chronicles on Mar 2, 2006 4:05 AM PST up reply actions
Re: No puns about Winn Shares, please
It's a funny thing, but Ned Colletti is clearly smarter on this topic than Sabean. Colletti signed all those old guys in LA to two-year contracts to lower his risk. Sabean still opens the wallet for 3.
by gdog @ McCovey Chronicles on Mar 2, 2006 11:11 AM PST up reply actions
Re: No puns about Winn Shares, please
Sabean's gambling...hell...every GM's gambling. We can disagree and that's fine. Either way, we'll know the answer beginning NEXT MONTH. (That feels nice to write!) Fact is, the Giants don't have a CF option for the next couple of seasons in their ranks. Again, Sabean's gambling with what I think is a sign-him-now-in-his-early-30s vs. let-him-go-and-scramble-for-someone.
Winn's contract aside, isn't the (cringing now) Giants' financial make-up primarily affected by one Barry Bonds? Now, I love Bonds to death and fully understand that he's putting people in the seats and throwing up huge numbers (when healthy). BUT, the franchise has to look beyond Bonds and likely won't allow itself a "rebuilding phase." Am I way off here?
I see it this way, Winn's salary will replace Durham's and the Giants are also banking (gambling) that Frandsen or Sanders or someone will be ready for 2B on-the-cheap next season. So, in short, I like Winn and I see him as a swap for Durham. Fair?
by Kent @ McCovey Chronicles on Mar 2, 2006 6:05 PM PST up reply actions
Re: No puns about Winn Shares, please
Sabean had him wrapped up for 2006. If he had waited two months, Winn's value either drops, in which case he can give less money or just two years - or it stays the same and he can either ink this deal or go to the trade market.
The Giants have enough money that this doesn't hurt that badly, but if Bonds sticks around for 2007, there isn't enough payroll flexibility to fill the holes. (A la 2004, when the playoffs were clearly within reach but Magowan wouldn't spend.)
by gdog @ McCovey Chronicles on Mar 3, 2006 9:15 AM PST up reply actions
Re: No puns about Winn Shares, please
Re: No puns about Winn Shares, please
I also think letting him play this year without the extension after he indicated a desire to stay could have inspired him to new heights, but it could just as easily have undermined his performance.
It's no steal but wrapping this all up now at this price is ok in my book.
Re: No puns about Winn Shares, please
by gdog @ McCovey Chronicles on Mar 1, 2006 8:46 PM PST up reply actions
Re: No puns about Winn Shares, please
Overpaid
-------------------
Winn is a decent defensive centerfielder with okay on base skills, not much power and a career .275 EQA.
The Giants already had him under contract for this season, but apparently fearful that the market for a 32 year old middle-of-the-road tweener outfielder would be out of control this offseason, have now tied themselves to him through 2009, when Winn will be 35.
I have a hard time believing that Winn, even with a great season in 2006, would have commanded that much this offseason.
-------------------
I really believe that. He had an amazing 6 weeks last season, but was thoroughly slightly-above-average for several years in Seattle.
Re: No puns about Winn Shares, please
Re: No puns about Winn Shares, please
by NearestNorwich on Mar 2, 2006 8:45 AM PST up reply actions
Re: No puns about Winn Shares, please
Re: No puns about Winn Shares, please
Kotsay .286 AVG .341 OBP .424 SLG 3Yrs 22.05M
Damon .290 AVG .351 OBP .431 SLG 4Yrs 52M
Hunter .269 AVG .321 OBP .458 SLG 4Yrs 32M
Cameron .249 AVG .342 OBP .442 SLG 3Yrs 19.5M
Randy Winn .288 AVG .346 OBP .425 SLG 4Yrs 28.25M
It looks to me like Randy got fair market value based on his career stats and not his last two months of 2005. The only one on this list that is overpaid is Johnny Damon. I challange any of you that have stated otherwise to provide a comp for a first time FA CenterFielder signed after 2002 that shows otherwise.
With regards to waiting until later this year I just do not see how that helps. Randy is being paid based on his career body of work and only an injury or below average year (not likely) would reduce his value while another above average year (more likely then an injury or below average year) would increase his value.
The only ways to go cheaper would be to either go older (like we did in the past with Lofton and Grissom)or trade a young stud like Cain. Are you really telling me you prefer either of these two options?
I would agree that we could have and perhaps should have gotten this hole filled when we traded Nathan and company but that is water of the dam. The question here is what is best to do now? I think Sabean did what is best to do now.
No fair including this year in Winn's contract
I think it's pretty safe to say that defensively Winn is worse than all of the players listed above, and I think the only one that he's even close to is Damon, who was grossly overpaid. I think defense pushes the value of the rest of those guys above Winn.
I don't have a problem trying to lock up Winn right now, but the only reason to do it is if you get a really good deal. If not, what's the hurry? He's not exactly an irreplaceable superstar. The Giants didn't get a really good deal.
Re: No fair including this year in Winn's contract
I was just talking about Winn
So Kotsay is averaging an extra $8.28M/year for 2 years and Winn is averaging an extra $7.75M/year for 3 years. Similar contracts for similar hitters with Winn getting an extra year. I think a healthy Kotsay is a much better defender, but the weird thing is that I think they gave Kotsay the big extension after he was already having back problems last year.
by Nick Schulte on Mar 3, 2006 10:43 AM PST up reply actions
Re: No puns about Winn Shares, please
- Brad Wilkerson was available.
- Milton Bradley was available.
- Corey Patterson was available.
- Jason Michaels was available.
by gdog @ McCovey Chronicles on Mar 2, 2006 1:15 PM PST up reply actions
Re: No puns about Winn Shares, please
Re: No puns about Winn Shares, please
The Giants have a whole bunch of guys who are reliably slightly-above to slightly-below average: Feliz, Vizquel, Winn, Matheny, Sweeney, Niekro, Finley; also Durham and Alou because their frequent injuries require second-rate replacements to take the field.
If everybody is average, the team goes 81-81. Add in Barry Bonds for 130 games, and the team goes 91-71. Teams that win 91 games don't necessarily even make the playoffs and aren't serious World Series contenders. Sure, they can fluke it, but I'd rather put my money on the team that can win 100 games.
by gdog @ McCovey Chronicles on Mar 2, 2006 5:16 PM PST up reply actions
Re: No puns about Winn Shares, please
Re: No puns about Winn Shares, please
When you go to the free agent market, you don't get a bargain. You end up overpaying for wins.
Here are the Baseball Prospectus projections for these guys:
Michaels: 275/361/420 Def +3 (CF)
Patterson: 258/302/429 Def +1 (CF)
Winn: 287/342/429 Def -2 (as a LF)
The difference between Michaels and Winn over the next two years is minimal - except for salary! And Patterson would either be as overpaid as Winn (but with lower salary and production) or he could breakout and be a bargain.
The Giants roster construction is like sitting on a balloon. Winn gets $8M per year, so first base ends up being a Niekro/Sweeney platoon instead of (for the first time in years) a guy who can really hit.
by gdog @ McCovey Chronicles on Mar 3, 2006 9:26 AM PST up reply actions
Re: No puns about Winn Shares, please
Patterson is a great gamble to take for the Orioles, but he has no business on a contending team this year. When you have about a season left of Bonds, you take the gimmes like Winn.
by Grant Brisbee on Mar 3, 2006 9:34 AM PST up reply actions
True
by Nick Schulte on Mar 3, 2006 10:33 AM PST up reply actions
Re: True
by Grant Brisbee on Mar 3, 2006 10:45 AM PST up reply actions
Re: No puns about Winn Shares, please
Re: No puns about Winn Shares, please
Playing every day is a big skill and I don't discount it. But it's hardly the hallmark of an over-30 player who makes his living to some extent on his speed.
by gdog @ McCovey Chronicles on Mar 3, 2006 9:28 AM PST up reply actions
Re: No puns about Winn Shares, please
As I noted above, I see this as trade of salary of Winn for Durham and a coupled prayer that Frandsen or Sanders or someone will be ready in 2008 at 2B. This is a conservative gamble by Sabean and I happen to be in favor of it.
by Kent @ McCovey Chronicles on Mar 2, 2006 6:52 PM PST up reply actions
Re: No puns about Winn Shares, please
Re: No puns about Winn Shares, please
I don't only see him through the lens of the Joe Nathan trade. (Which is probably the worst trade of the decade.)
I see him through the lens of a team that has gotten successively worse for three years.
I see him through the lens of a guy who didn't realize Pedro Feliz was better than Alfonzo and spent $28 million to prove himself wrong.
I see him through the lens of a guy who got rid of Livan and Ortiz only to keep Rueter.
I see him through the lens of a guy who gives players the "bad attitude" tag and gets rid of them for nothing so that they can play well for another team.
The 2002 World Series was so close you could taste it. How come we haven't tasted anything since then?
by gdog @ McCovey Chronicles on Mar 2, 2006 1:22 PM PST up reply actions
Re: No puns about Winn Shares, please
I see him through the lens of a guy who didn't realize Pedro Feliz was better than Alfonzo and spent $28 million to prove himself wrong.
That's 20/10 hindsight. After 2002:
Alfonzo, 28, .308/.391/.459
Feliz, 27, .253/.281/.336
If Sabean predicted Feliz would outperform Alfonzo over the next three years, he wouldn't be a general manager of a baseball team, he'd be a circus sideshow. And Alfonzo is from Venezuela, where they keep fairly good records, so I still maintain his age is accurate.
I'm no fan of a lot of his moves, and I agree with you in spirit. That's the wrong choice to point out, though.
by Grant Brisbee on Mar 2, 2006 1:43 PM PST up reply actions
Re: No puns about Winn Shares, please
298/337/571
That's pretty good for a 23-year-old 3B - and not bad for a 25-year-old in his first shot at AAA, even if it is hitter heaven Fresno. There's a pretty reliable translation from AAA to MLB, particularly for power hitters, and it doesn't take a genius GM to make it.
When they signed Alfonzo, they still thought Feliz was two years younger than he really was.
Alfonzo in 2001 before he had his big walk year:
243/322/403
An aging middle infielder who moves from 2B to 3B because of defensive problems and injuries and put up such crappy stats a year earlier is not credible risk management compared to "gambling" on Feliz.
If you read the papers at the time, even then it was known that Sabean outbid everyone for Alfonzo, offering more money and more years than everyone else. Even if you want to hedge against Feliz not working out, why not get a better deal?
by gdog @ McCovey Chronicles on Mar 2, 2006 2:08 PM PST up reply actions
Aging?
A 28-year-old, however, is not normally "aging" in the sense of "over the hill". Obviously there are exceptions, and Alfonzo turned out to be one.
Re: Aging?
At age 29 and beyond, many players, particularly middle infielders with no speed, begin a deep and serious decline. Alfonzo was not the exception but rule.
by gdog @ McCovey Chronicles on Mar 2, 2006 5:10 PM PST up reply actions
Re: No puns about Winn Shares, please
Feliz in 2000 in AAA when they still thought he was 23 (not 25):
298/337/571
That's pretty good for a 23-year-old 3B - and not bad for a 25-year-old in his first shot at AAA, even if it is hitter heaven Fresno. There's a pretty reliable translation from AAA to MLB, particularly for power hitters, and it doesn't take a genius GM to make
That was Feliz's only - no hyperbole - decent season at any professional level, and it was certainly helped by the PCL and Fresno. After that, he was miserable in two major league seasons.
Alfonzo wasn't moved because of defensive/injury problems, but rather to make room for a Roberto Alomar who had hit .336/.415/.541 the year before.
Alfonzo in 2001 before he had his big walk year:
243/322/403
It was the only bad year of his career to that point. It was the first less-than-spectacular year since 1998, when he hit .278/.355/.427 as a 24-year old. When a player has a history of being an All-star caliber player, has a single bad year, and then rebounds with .308/.391/.459, how much stock can you put in that bad year?
If you read the papers at the time, even then it was known that Sabean outbid everyone for Alfonzo, offering more money and more years than everyone else. Even if you want to hedge against Feliz not working out, why not get a better deal?
Well, offering more money and more years is generally how to sign free agents. Boston was livid, having thought a deal with Alfonzo was close. San Diego was in the mix until the end, too. To lure Alfonzo away from the East Coast and the Red Sox, Sabean gambled with an extra year.
If your contention is that Sabean should have taken Alfonzo's back issues more seriously, that's something I can concede. But a general manager that takes a 23-year old hacker with one good AAA season over a 28-year old All-star with one bad season is a bad general manager.
by Grant Brisbee on Mar 2, 2006 3:00 PM PST up reply actions
Re: No puns about Winn Shares, please
GP 1999-2002: 158/150/124/135
OPS 1999-2002: 887/967/725/850
That looks like a guy who's having trouble staying in the lineup and keeping his power.
If you average his last two seasons with the Mets, that's 130 GP with a 787 OPS. In 2003-04, he did 142/139 GP with 725/757 OPS.
Sabean was paying for Alfonzo circa 1999-2000 and in 2003-04 got something a bit below the 2001-02 average, which is pretty much what you'd expect.
The reason Feliz should have played is that Feliz cost 1/20th what Alfonzo cost. Call him a hacker, but even if Feliz has a 720 OPS in the majors, he is worth much more than 1/20th of what Alfonzo would be worth at 787 OPS. Feliz's production might not have been guaranteed, but he was pretty much a lock to end up with an OPS between 700 and 750 playing every day. If they both cost the same, sure pick Alfonzo. But when money's involved, Feliz wins hands-down.
Isn't it a strike against Sabean that he valued Alfonzo more than any other team did?
by gdog @ McCovey Chronicles on Mar 2, 2006 5:08 PM PST up reply actions
Re: No puns about Winn Shares, please
I agree the power loss was a red flag, and the 30 or so games every year did make a difference. To put it in perspective, though, Vlad played only 112 games in his walk year, and had similar back issues. Both were the same age going into free agency. One worked out (so far), and one was a nightmare. Alfonzo was young enough to warrant some optimism and benefit of the doubt. That's why I can't bash Sabean too hard on the deal.
If you average his last two seasons with the Mets, that's 130 GP with a 787 OPS. In 2003-04, he did 142/139 GP with 725/757 OPS.
I would disagree with that reasoning on a couple of counts. First, a straight mean average isn't the best way to judge something with an obvious outlier. Second, there's a little bit of cherry-picking the endpoints going on. I can understand ignoring, say, the age-35 and -36 seasons of a guy with wildly different age-37 and -38 season results, but I wouldn't see the point in doing it with a young player. The back injuries were a concern, but not enough to really think about just discarding the results from 1999 and 2000.
Call him a hacker, but even if Feliz has a 720 OPS in the majors, he is worth much more than 1/20th of what Alfonzo would be worth at 787 OPS. Feliz's production might not have been guaranteed, but he was pretty much a lock to end up with an OPS between 700 and 750 playing every day
I couldn't disagree more. Feliz had two seasons over a .700 OPS in his professional career. One was a .724 in AA in '98, and the other was the .908 in AAA in '00. After that AAA season, he posted seasons of .227/.264/.373 and .253/.281/.373 in the majors. A contending team should not consider starting a player like that for a second. Pinning hopes on a young player like that is strictly Royals territory, and that's being generous. It's fairly amazing he was kept on the 40-man roster. Counting on Feliz and Russ Davis in 2001 cost the team the division, so I can't imagine why Sabean would think about repeating his mistake in 2003.
Hey, I'm no Alfonzo fan. Looking back, I concede the doubters were pointing out some pretty salient points, and I was wrong. But I can't agree on any point that would support Feliz looking any kind of useful after 2002. The argument is the same as letting Deivis Santos start instead of extending J.T. Snow's contract, but with the benefit of hindsight.
by Grant Brisbee on Mar 2, 2006 5:49 PM PST up reply actions
Re: No puns about Winn Shares, please
http://thebaseballcube.com/players/M/bill-mueller.shtml
Re: No puns about Winn Shares, please
Mueller would have been a good gamble as a utility player at that point. The only clues of an impending breakout were 200 at-bats, in an injury-plagued season, that were totally out of line with anything else in his career. He busted out, and that's great, but certainly nothing predictible.
But it's players like Feliz, Mueller, et al that make me hope Lance Niekro can be an All-Star.
by Grant Brisbee on Mar 2, 2006 7:11 PM PST up reply actions
Re: No puns about Winn Shares, please
It's not really equivalent to hitting 31 HRs in AAA.
Anyways, what I'm arguing here is that using the $7 million per (that went to Alfonzo) wisely is the most important thing. Feliz remains a poor hitter who costs his team games, but having him in there at $300k per season in 2003 would have cost the Giants fewer games than mis-spending the $7M did by taking that money away from better potential signings.
I think the Winn signing is just more of the same for Sabean. He over-pays an over-30 player to get predictability and an excuse. It's about public perception - look at last year - if Michael Tucker or Marquis Grissom stinks up the joint, that's not Sabean's fault because those guys had a "track record" and lots of baseball cards. But if Todd Linden stinks it up, Sabean takes flak for trying out an untested unknown player - even if Linden had a higher upside or was a better use of money.
by gdog @ McCovey Chronicles on Mar 3, 2006 9:43 AM PST up reply actions
Re: No puns about Winn Shares, please
Well, having the Feliz that showed up would have been better. But we're talking about the Feliz that was reasonable to expect. If you are talking about applying that $7M to a gaping hole on the roster, the player Feliz looked to be after 2002 would have been one of the biggest full-time holes on any roster in baseball. A $7M upgrade from Kirk Rueter wouldn't have been the priority. The priority would have been getting the career .700 OPS hitter in the minors/.600 OPS hitter in the majors out of the starting lineup.
I think the Winn signing is just more of the same for Sabean. He over-pays an over-30 player to get predictability and an excuse.
I can agree with this, but I'm more inclined to accept the deal if it goes to a player that:
a. Comes at a position that's hard to fill.
b. Has a skills set that generally ages well, (more Finley than Stairs)
by Grant Brisbee on Mar 3, 2006 9:54 AM PST up reply actions
Re: No puns about Winn Shares, please
If Ralph Wiley created Road Dog, wouldn't Grant name his persona something like... gdog? I, for one, have never seen the two of them in the same place.
Re: No puns about Winn Shares, please
But, yeah, you Smithers-types disgust me.
by Grant Brisbee on Mar 3, 2006 10:48 AM PST up reply actions
Re: No puns about Winn Shares, please
Also, if I got fired, I'd do a little tap dance. I'd collect unemployment, and go to a less stressful job. Like, I don't know, working for CTU.
by Grant Brisbee on Mar 3, 2006 10:53 AM PST up reply actions
Re: No puns about Winn Shares, please
I am definitely not Grant's alter-ego. You can tell from my sentence structure that Esperanto is my first language.
by gdog @ McCovey Chronicles on Mar 3, 2006 5:14 PM PST up reply actions
Re: No puns about Winn Shares, please
Alfonzo, 28, .308/.391/.459
Feliz, 25 (not 27), .253/.281/.336
by gdog @ McCovey Chronicles on Mar 2, 2006 2:09 PM PST up reply actions
Re: No puns about Winn Shares, please
Re: No puns about Winn Shares, please
by gdog @ McCovey Chronicles on Mar 3, 2006 9:07 AM PST up reply actions
Re: No puns about Winn Shares, please
:)
Go Giants, we're all hoping that Mr. Winn stays injury-free and produces for us. I still think that it's an okay deal...and I admit that I like Winn as a player.
Kent
by Kent @ McCovey Chronicles on Mar 3, 2006 10:17 AM PST reply actions
Re: No puns about Winn Shares, please
by Kent @ McCovey Chronicles on Mar 3, 2006 11:23 AM PST reply actions
Re: No puns about Winn Shares, please
by Kent @ McCovey Chronicles on Mar 3, 2006 1:22 PM PST reply actions

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