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Around SBN: Notre Dame's Turnaround: How Have The Irish Done It?

Community Projection: El Alces

I was for the Armando Benitez deal before I was against it. The Giants had a problem in the bullpen, Benitez was a pitcher who was good even in his worst years, so throwing a little extra money his way was understandable. But the first year of the contract was a disaster. Ruben Rivera playing the part of Mel Gibson in the final scene of Gallipoli kind of disaster. It's almost been a year, so let's post the video clip of Rivera running around the bases just for the heck of it.

I still like Benitez on the Giants in that special all-things-being-equal-kind-of-way. As an allocation of resources, though, it's hard to be a rabid fan. The Giants are wading in power bullpen arms, and while Benitez is a likely improvement on each and every one in the present, it'd be a lot purtier to see that seven million applied to a hitter like Carlos Delgado. This month's feature is Projecting the Future, though. If you were hoping for Grumbling with the Benefit of Perfect Hindsight, you'll likely be able to catch the reruns in March. Benitez was one of the select few I would have ever paid a premium for, and the Giants needed a bullpen arm as much for public relations as for on-the-field reasons. There are still two seasons left to squeeze some production from the guy.

The biggest fear with Benitez in 2006 is how awful he looked before his injury. Even before he snapped his hamstring, he wasn't impressive. The fastball was only in the low-90s, and the splitter/breaking pitches were inconsistent at best. He was rushed back, so it's hard to put too much emphasis on his return, but he didn't impress then either.

The theory I'm choosing to take is Benitez's hamstring was weak the whole season, finally giving out on the routine cover of first against the Padres. Before that, it was hard for him to push off as he was used to, which spoiled his breaking pitches and took some feet off his fastball. If those of you with actual medical knowledge don't see how that could be the case, let me know, and I'll be sure to find a creative way to ignore you. Lalalala.... Benitez will be fine.... Lalalalala.....

Armando Benitez

IP: 72
ERA: 2.59
K: 75
BB: 31
S: 39

Comment 39 comments  |  0 recs  | 

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The hamstring...
consists of a group of muscles on the back of the thigh. These muscles act to extend the leg at the hip (think: balancing on one leg and moving the other leg directly backwards without bending it) and to flex the leg at the knee (moving from a straight-legged to bent leg position).  I imagine this muscle group comprises a fair portion of the "lower body drive" one always reads about in pitching discussions.  Also, he could easily have suffered an undiagonsed partial injury before the main event.  

The usual caveat that I don't know what the hell I am talking about applies to the above paragraph of course

there's no fun in fundamentalism

by kenshin1 on Feb 7, 2006 10:52 AM PST reply actions  

Re: The hamstring...
Aye Aye Captain.
Why can't we get anyone good?

by WalrusMan on Feb 7, 2006 5:32 PM PST up reply actions  

Re: The hamstring...
i disagree strongly with your second paragraph. u are dead nuts right-on.

in addition, benetiz is built like a knock-kneed ice cream cone. as a result, his semitendinosus, semimembranosus, and biceps femoris and their  adjudant tissue will continue to deteriorate. the repetive motion of his highly contraindicative pitching delivery, will serve to accelerate rather than decelerate detoriation of the prior-mentioned tendons, muscle groupings and tisse.  

While there is no cure, the condition is highly treatable by throwing underhanded. If that is not possilbe, than he should try pitching left-handed every other pitch to decelerate deterioration

and yes, I did go to medical school. UCSF. (whaddya mean bein' part of a failed electro-shock therapy experiment doesn't count?)

Grant is right.  the money would have been been spent better on carlos delgado.  hindsight of course.

the too-worn adage. we broke it--we own it. blah.

i porked my username, but wtfgas anyway?

by E Ticket on Feb 7, 2006 6:59 PM PST up reply actions  

lol...
I applied there... they laughed ;-)
there's no fun in fundamentalism

by kenshin1 on Feb 8, 2006 3:48 AM PST up reply actions  

Re: Community Projection: El Alces
I would be very satisfied with that production.  I hope you are right.

by out machine on Feb 7, 2006 10:53 AM PST reply actions  

Re: Community Projection: El Alces
Ditto.  Grant, you're pretty damn bullish on the dude.  I also hope that you're correct...man, those numbers would be fantastic.  

As an aside, let's not spend so much money on a closer, any closer next time.  Didn't the White Sox show baseball something last year?  Hell, let Valdez start preparing to be the "closer."  Then again, can I have ole Nen back, please?

by Kent @ McCovey Chronicles on Feb 7, 2006 2:27 PM PST up reply actions  

Satisfied?
Never mind satisfied, I'd be freakin' ECSTATIC if Benny put up those numbers. But I still get queasy every time he takes the mound in a Giants uniform.

by EliminateMe on Feb 8, 2006 10:52 AM PST up reply actions  

Re: Community Projection: El Alces
I too would be satisfied and think it is realistic.  The things I think are most likely to be off are saves (I see closer to 45 since the Giants a a team had 46 saves last year) and Ks (I see closer to 65 since it has now been several years since he has had more then 1K per inning pitched).

by giantsrainman on Feb 7, 2006 11:43 AM PST reply actions  

Re: Community Projection: El Alces
I'm a little reluctant to repeat all the reasons I was excited about the Benitez signing last year, since it didn't turn out so well, so I'll just stick to one stat: opponents' battting average. Last year opponents hit .229 against Benitez, and that was the highest average in his twelve-year career. It raised his career opponents' average to .187. (Robb Nen's career mark was .227.)

I didn't feel more comfortable than any of you when the fat guy with the choker reputation and the bad hammy waddled in from the bullpen last season, but he's been so consistently effective throughout his career that I still have high hopes for him.

IP: 64
ERA: 3.09
K: 55
BB: 31
S: 41

"Robb Nen is going to get you" - Benito Santiago to Chipper Jones, 10/7/02

by Pants Man on Feb 7, 2006 12:00 PM PST reply actions  

Re: Community Projection: El Alces
IP:  60
ERA:  3.50
K:  55
BB:  35
S:  35

I really hate to project Benitez without seeing him pitch in spring training.  Relievers are hard to predict; relievers coming off major surgery are doubly so.

by Skaldheim on Feb 7, 2006 1:11 PM PST reply actions  

Re: Community Projection: El Alces
IP: 70
ERA: 2.88
K: 64
BB: 31
SV: 35
"Baseball is life, the rest is just details."

by nick @ McCovey Chronicles on Feb 7, 2006 1:57 PM PST reply actions  

Re: Community Projection: El Alces
IP: 55
ERA: 3.90
K: 50
BB: 25

I'm sorry, but all these projections placing him in the second tier of MLB closers are too optimistic (same tier as Cordero and Nathan?). Benitez is a power pitcher who just suffered a catastrophic lower body injury. Unless he changes everything about his approach, a la Trevor Hoffman or Randy Myers, he'll fall on his face, and I can't believe that a guy whose MO his entire career has been sheer power (straight fastball) plus the occasional deception (splitter, slider) will be able to transform into a location/deception pitcher in the course of one offseason. At best, I see him squeezing out a few more years on guts and guile like Rod Beck circa 2001, but his days as a truly dominant guy are over. My projection also takes into account that I think he'll miss significant time to injury.

by David A. Arnott on Feb 7, 2006 2:49 PM PST reply actions  

As I wise man once said...
.... Lalalalala.....
"Robb Nen is going to get you" - Benito Santiago to Chipper Jones, 10/7/02

by Pants Man on Feb 7, 2006 2:57 PM PST up reply actions  

Re: Community Projection: El Alces
He had a career best year in 2004 and it seemed like most of the credit was given to the fact that he had started to incorporate more of his off-speed stuff instead of just relying on his fastball. He had learned to pitch basically. While Grant's is real real optimistic, I don't think it's too hard to project a bounceback year for him.

by hammystyle on Feb 7, 2006 3:29 PM PST up reply actions  

Re: Community Projection: El Alces
I share David's concerns about Benitez's injury. Kenshin, thanks for the synopsis. Dr.B, can you tell us more? It certainly sounds like a "catastrophic lower body injury" to a layman like me, but what is the prognosis for a full recovery? And if full recovery is possible, what might be a reasonable timetable?

That having been said (and awaiting further enlightenment) I'll jump in with these carefully chosen random numbers:

IP: 71
ERA: 3.16
K: 68
BB: 29
S: 43

by Lyle @ McCovey Chronicles on Feb 7, 2006 3:50 PM PST reply actions  

Full Recovery?
Well, let's see.  I'm not an orthpedist, and I don't know too much about hamstring tears, but I'll give it the old med school try.

Tearing the hamstring tendons off the pelvis, having them surgically tacked back on, and then having your leg bent 90 degrees at the knee and suppported by a cart with wheels is certainly nothing to take lightly.  It would certainly fit some definitions of a catastrophic injury.  I can't even imagine how painful it must have been(shudder).  

Still, assuming that the tendon has had time to graft back onto the pelvic bone, I see no reason why a complete recovery isn't possible.  I really can't think of any residual damage that would still cause problems.  Tearing the hammy in the body of the muscle would leave considerable scar tissue within the muscle tissue and be fertile ground for recurrent tears. I think that the surgery Benitez and Nomar underwent last year is a relatively new technique, so it may not be fully know what the liklihood of recurrence is.  It could be higher, since it happened once already and the insertion to the bone is now damaged.  On the other hand, it could be like TJ surgery and make that connection stronger.

I believe this injury is not a new phenomenon.  I may be wrong, but I think I read somewhere that in the past they just left the tendons dangling and the player recovered function through rehab and strengthening other muscles.  I think I read that Grissom had that type of injury a few years ago and he just continued to play on without the surgery.  Reggie Jackson had a severe hamstring tear in a World Series game while he was still with the A's.  He went on to have many great years with the Yanks and Angels long after that.

It would seem to behoove Armando Benitez to lose some weight so there is not so much traction on the muscles and tendons.  He will also need to be scrupulous about his stretching and making sure his muscles are warmed up before entering a game.  Let's all keep our fingers crossed.

BTW.  I would consider MRSA Septic Arthitis of the knee to be much more likely to be catastrophic in terms of irrepairable damage than the injury Benitez suffered.

by DrBGiantsfan on Feb 7, 2006 4:37 PM PST up reply actions  

Re: Full Recovery?
I ain't no doctor, but I think I know a good deal about pitching (emphasis on "think"), so my biggest concern would be a two-parter:

1)Since he injured his right hamstring (I assume he pushes off the way most pitchers push off, as opposed to the way that makes more sense), I wonder how much recovery time he'd need in order to go all out and push with full effort again. Griffey, Jr., had a terrible hamstring injury in late 2004, and he hasn't been able to go all out on it since.
2)If he's not pushing off the way he always has, then he's got to be extra-careful to not try to make up for the lost velocity by overtaxing his arm or shoulder or otherwise altering his motion and then suffering a cascade injury. I would absolutely be willing to bet that he loses significant time to an arm injury or unusually painful soreness.

Then again, once I get my MCC t-shirt, all my problems, this worry about Benitez included, will disappear.

by David A. Arnott on Feb 7, 2006 7:52 PM PST up reply actions  

Re: Full Recovery?
nice article.  mike marshall blew out his arm after a short career.  the article is not entirely without merit.  however, it makes no reference to rotational force created by a series of levers which the pitching motion clearly is as is hitting, swinging a golfclub, swinging a tennis racket and so on.

the article repeats an old fallacy going back years.
the push leg.  this is crap.  its fine for a throw from the outfield. don't believe me.  go out to the mound and "push off like the article describes.  you will fall on your face and the ball will just float to the plate. or over the backstop.  the difference is simple. in the outfield you get a one step advantage. you do not throw from a stationary position.

the power comes from pulling through with the front leg IN UNISON with driving off the back leg  as the back leg ROTATES from facing third base to facing homeplate.  they are both equal in importance.  the front leg (quadraceps) pulls the hips through on a rotational basis as the front cleats grab the landing spot in front of the rubber.   the quinessential example of this was tom seaver. classic drop and drive. bob gibson and juan marichal were also drop and drive though not as formful as seaver.  matt cain could attain greatness if he did this, but he has been coached along the lines of the article you cited. he pitches in the low to mid 90s.  give me a season with him and he will be throwing 102 mph...guaranteed  seaver was 5-11 190 lbs and threw 95 for the better part of 15 years and tons of complete games.

look at billy wagner as the article alludes to. they missed the obvious.  the reason he throws as hard if not harder as randy johnson is because he pitches as i described above. he "PULLS and PUSHES  IN UNISON.  if your motion is in unison it is in balance. if you are balanced, your proneness towards injury is reduced and longevity per game and per career is increased.

and in conclusion.  tom house is famous for getting nolan ryan to throw a football.  otherwise he is full of shit.  he has some good rehab and conditioning suggestions, but as a guru he is baseball's version of dr. phil.

i porked my username, but wtfgas anyway?

by E Ticket on Feb 7, 2006 9:11 PM PST up reply actions  

Re: Full Recovery?
As for Benitez, I was specifically referring to the insight in that chapter of pushing off the rubber using the front thigh muscles more instead of the muscles on the outside of the leg...

First, surely you can see how hitting might be very different from pitching. A hitter does not have the luxury of taking as much time as he chooses in his windup, nor does he have a rubber in the batter's box (though many hitters approximate an anchor by digging in). Hitting is as much about identifying and then meeting the ball as it is about propelling it, so he cannot take a long windup or stride. Also, a hitter does not swing 100 times in a game, so the injury risk is very different.

Second, I fail to see how you've refuted the point that pitching is about driving forward with your comment about outfielders. At the point of release,  You're basically saying what Carroll is about driving forward with BOTH legs. I think he has taken into account the push-pull process you describe, but he simply chooses not to emphasize it as much as you do. As you say, he says to push off the rubber with the back leg AND pull with the front. Instead of emphasizing the hip rotation, though, he mentions hip rotation as a part of the motion, then emphasizes force going forward to the plate, because his goal is to "ensure that a maximum of force is directed in the driveline and imparted to the ball". The idea is that the most efficient motion is the one that directs the most force in only one direction, towards the plate. It's not designed to maximize power and movement, but to maximize those in conjunction with preventing injury by minimizing excess forces put on the body. He doesn't talk about twisting and rotation because he wants the idea of full force going in one direction to take precedence. If you have limbs flying towards the first base dugout, then that's energy not going forward.

I refer you to
Barry Zito
http://www.murkworks.net/~james/Sports/OakAtl061203/6.jpg
and Ichiro
http://www.footballfanatics.com/images/productImages/_84000/DS_84062-xl.jpg

What I think we can both agree looks terrible, because he can't be getting anything out of his legs and has will generate all his power from his torso, is this photo of Shane Reynolds
http://www.murkworks.net/~james/Sports/OakAtl061203/80.jpg

by David A. Arnott on Feb 8, 2006 1:21 AM PST up reply actions  

Re: Full Recovery?
teddy:

Your points are well taken.  But I am not disputing your points; but rather the article cited.  But first things first.  My comparison of hitting, swinging etc to pitching was in the context of each such athletic motion can be broken down into a series of muskeo-skelatal levers rotating around a series of fulcrums. In pitching the lst lever is the big toe of the back leg, then to the ankle, tibia, femur, hip, back, shoulders neck upper arm, forearm, wrist etc with the joints as the fulcrums.  Let me rephrase.  Piching is like hitting or swinging a badmitton raquet ONLY in terms that the body is a series of skeletal levers.  Hell swinging a hammer is a levered motion.  Hope that clears that up.

Maybe you and I are arguing the same thing, but using different analogies. You apparentley understand the the back leg, front leg part of my rant. My reference to throwing from the outfield needs some small elaboration obviously.  In the outfield, or simply playing long toss, you are not limited to throwing from a rubber from a standing start turned 90 degrees from your target. In the outfield you have the advantage of a running start facing your target, even if it is only one step or a simple crow-hop.  How many times have you  seen an outfielder with a tremdous gun, step on a pitching mound and throw nothing close to what he can from the field.  Momentum it is called. It can be developed linearly (the running start--crow hop) as in my example for outfielders which is what Carroll and particularly Marshall are advocating trying to reproduce in a pitching motion.  What I am advocating is rotational momentum with the vertical plane emphasized.

My gripe is with Carroll and Marshall and House, and their ilk in by emphasizing minutia and trying to make the craft of pitching more complicated than it is. Misconceptions are introduced invariably. All while lining their pockets with the hard earned dollars of little league parents.  And in the process continuing to spread misinformation and bad technique into generations of future pitchers.  Particularly their lack of understanding or emphasis of the front leg and that "pushing" is really a misnomer. I can't count the number of young pitchers and coaches over the years that I have had to disabuse of the "push off" theory.  Most pitchers do not tap the power that comes from the ability of the front leg to snap the hips through the power zone.

You are rare in that you understand the function of the front leg.  That is where the true power is generated..in a power pitcher, classic drop and drive type that is.  From pulling, or snapping the hips through.  The way these guys advocate pushing is no different than Omar throwing off his back leg in the infield.  That is "pushing off" carried to an extreme.  Now how much power is generated by pushing off the back leg as compared to pulling through with the front leg?  Go ahead, try it yourself and you will understand exactly what I am talking about.  A drop and drive power pitcher is capable of throwing a complete game and the only thing aching afterwards are his glutes and quads. No shoulder or elbow ice required.

Anyway, enough. I could write pages and pages but then I would probably look like somebody working on a phd trying to bullshit a credentials committee.

It all stems from my biggest peeve with MLB in general.  It seems nobody but Billy Beane is noted or willing to think outside the bun.  Maybe this is not such a bad thing as baseball seems to be the only great sport institution most resistant to change and gives more than passing lip service to its traditions.

i porked my username, but wtfgas anyway?

by E Ticket on Feb 8, 2006 9:41 AM PST up reply actions  

Re: Full Recovery?
The "at the point of release" thing was going to be a description of what I showed with the Ichiro and Zito photos, which is that they look pretty similar.

by David A. Arnott on Feb 8, 2006 1:22 AM PST up reply actions  

Re: Community Projection: El Alces
IP 23
ERA 3.99
K 23
BB 12
S 9
Saving countless runs with my defense

by lyricalkiller on Feb 7, 2006 4:16 PM PST reply actions  

Re: Community Projection: El Alces
downer.
"Baseball is life, the rest is just details."

by nick @ McCovey Chronicles on Feb 7, 2006 6:56 PM PST up reply actions  

Re: Community Projection: El Alces
Alces?  As in Alces Alces, The Moose?

by keithr on Feb 7, 2006 4:25 PM PST reply actions  

The resemblance is uncanny, no?
He's a big dude.

I used to refer to Livan as El Ballena Immovil, or something like that, which meant "The Immovable Whale". Then he was moved, and it didn't seem so cute.

Pretty sure Lefty holds the copyright on all this stuff, but I like to stick it to the man sometimes....

by Grant Brisbee on Feb 7, 2006 4:36 PM PST up reply actions  

Re: The resemblance is uncanny, no?
But, Grant, you are the man, right? So you're sticking it to yourself?

by Sayhey on Feb 7, 2006 5:23 PM PST up reply actions  

Touche!
there's no fun in fundamentalism

by kenshin1 on Feb 7, 2006 5:24 PM PST up reply actions  

Re: The resemblance is uncanny, no?
Compliment and dig at the same time. Well done, sir!

by Grant Brisbee on Feb 7, 2006 5:52 PM PST up reply actions  

Re: The resemblance is uncanny, no?
"maybe"
i porked my username, but wtfgas anyway?

by E Ticket on Feb 7, 2006 7:04 PM PST up reply actions  

Re: The resemblance is uncanny, no?
You're right, E, I should have used quotation marks to show I ripped off my response from a tv commercial. Mea culpa. That's the trouble when not everyone watches 10 hours of television a day. Slackers!

by Sayhey on Feb 7, 2006 7:52 PM PST up reply actions  

Re: The resemblance is uncanny, no?
After the way this group spouted off radio slogans for over 100 posts, I'd have thought we all would have got it.

(That ad is pretty funny.)

www.waitingfortbg.com (under contstruction)

by Goofus on Feb 8, 2006 11:36 AM PST up reply actions  

Re: The resemblance is uncanny, no?
Early last year, not long before Benitez blew out that hammy, my wife and I were at Ma Bell Park, in my company's seats.  These are behind the Giant bullpen mound.  Let me tell you, Benitez has BIG HAMSTRINGS.  I mean, the dude seems to be all hamstring.  I was wincing every time he went into a windup.  It looked architecturally unstable, if you know what I mean.

So I wasn't too surprised to hear that he suffered from catastrophic structural failure a few days later.  That dude shouldn't have been running anywhere, any time.

by Skaldheim on Feb 8, 2006 8:56 AM PST up reply actions  

Re: The resemblance is uncanny, no?
I've noticed that he's very knock-kneed, especially noticable when he's standing on the rubber with his left leg forward.  Looks like running would put weird strain on his whole lower body.
www.waitingfortbg.com (under contstruction)

by Goofus on Feb 8, 2006 11:35 AM PST up reply actions  

Re: Community Projection: El Alces
Stat I'm most concered about: blown saves.
www.waitingfortbg.com (under contstruction)

by Goofus on Feb 7, 2006 5:10 PM PST reply actions  

Re: Community Projection: El Alces
Oh some of yea with little faith - he pitched acceptably when he returned during last season, which was commendable on his part.  With a full offseason to recuperate and exercise and get his weight down and his legs limber, El Ballena Immovil should dazzle and dominate.  One can only hope.

by APGiantsFan on Feb 7, 2006 5:31 PM PST reply actions  

Re: Community Projection: El Alces
he definitely gets a 10+ for guts in coming back. which is enough for me to root like hell for him in spite of my negative objective thoughts, hindsight, and overall foreboding.
i porked my username, but wtfgas anyway?

by E Ticket on Feb 7, 2006 7:06 PM PST up reply actions  

Re: Community Projection: El Alces
>Pretty sure Lefty holds the copyright on all this stuff,

Yes, and you will soon receive a phone call from my Abogado Despiadado.

by leftymalo on Feb 7, 2006 7:23 PM PST reply actions  

Wow!
Very impressive, gentlemen, on the physiology and kinesiology insights!  Thanks all.  I are now smarter than before.  (And I always try to stay away from MRSA.)

Q: "Are you a doctor?"

A: "No, but I read McCovey Chronicles last night."

by Lyle @ McCovey Chronicles on Feb 8, 2006 12:02 PM PST reply actions  

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