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Chulkenbrand

Now that the dust has settled from the 2006 team -- the noxious, toxic dust that is currently sawing through the cilia in our lungs, and leeching carcinogens into our blood stream -- it wouldn't be a bad time to retroactively evaluate the Jeremy Accardo trade. The Giants obviously had a flaw or two or three or fourteen going into to the trade deadline, and not a heck of a lot of ammunition to trade. The two priorities were the lack of any production at first base, and patching a bullpen that specialized in making grown men cry.

While I believe players exist who consistently play better in the first or second half of the season, I also believe it's pretty much impossible to distinguish them from the rest of the baseball universe using stats. Shea Hillenbrand has never done well in the second half of a season, but I don't begrudge the Giants for ignoring that and picking him up. Lance Niekro wasn't the answer, unless the question was asked at one of those newfangled S&M/sports bars that are popping up everywhere. Trading for a first baseman was the right move. Borrowing from an already weak area of the team to do it was a questionable move. As it turned out, the main players involved in the trade stunk. Apparently the correct answer -- start Jason Ellison at first, and trade Jeremy Accardo for Vinnie Chulk straight up -- was a little counterintuitive.

I held out hope until the bitter end, hoping that Hillenbrand would start to remind us of Joe Carter. It never happened. Dude just stunk. And Accardo was one of my favorites for two reasons:

  1. He showed noticeable improvement on his secondary pitches from his rookie year.
  2. He was undrafted out of college.
Undrafted! Do you know how hard it is to go undrafted in the MLB Draft?
Round 45 of the draft:

"Dick, give me a letter."
"X."
"Way to make it easy on me...lessee...okay, we'll draft Xerxes McDallas from Albertson's College of Idaho."
"Uh, that's not the college. His scouting report is only one sentence long, and all it says is that he opens every carton of eggs that he rings up. You know, to check for broken ones."
"Oooh. That sounds like A+ makeup to me."
"Well, you drafted him. Should we call him up and sign him?"
"Mmmmmmmmm....no."

Round 49 of the draft:

"Who's in the conference room next door?"
"Sue, from Marketing."
(picks up phone and dials)
"Sue, yeah, this is Brian. Listen, didn't you just have a son that graduated high school? No? But you left early on Friday to go to a gradu...oh, your nephew? Got it, what's his name? Randall Soot...good. And what high school did he go to? Carlmont High, great. I wanted to be the first to tell you this, Sue. Are you ready? Randall Soot is about to be...drafted by the San Francisco Giants! Yeah, that's right! In about two min...what? Oh. Really. A wheelchair. Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Right, no, I didn't know that. Hey, not to cut you off, but is anyone else in the room with you?"

Not only did the Giants find Accardo in the dustbin of professional baseball, they were able to watch him rocket through the system. As long as he isn't a Dodger, he'll always be one to root for.

It isn't possible to fully evaluate the trade, though. If the Giants don't sign Hillenbrand, they will certainly offer him arbitration. Having Hillenbrand back without the commitment of a multi-year deal is the best situation out there, especially if the Giants are sellers at the `07 trading deadline. If Hillenbrand declines arbitration, as he surely would, the Giants would receive a supplemental draft pick. That would leave the trade as Accardo for Chulk and a high draft pick in a draft that is reported to be deep.

Of course, this whole draft pick idea was also something I used to justify the Sidney Ponson trade, and the Giants declined to offer him arbitration. Maybe the odds of the Giants drafting Huston Street or Reid Brignac with that pick were slim, but it was still pointless to throw the offer of a draft pick away. However, I think the Giants are done with the punting of draft picks. Maybe that should read, "I hope". Whatever. The point is that the Hillenbrand trade might not turn out to be a disaster after all. Though it would have helped if he had, you know, done something.

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Re: Chulkenbrand
The Giants should resign Hillenbrand. Yes, he is not the long term answer to first or third base, but I don't see a lot of options out there in the FA market who are the answer. I think the Giants can get him cheap, he has already stated he wants to return, and he is a damn sight better than Lance Niekro. In a off season in which the Giants have to fill positions all over the diamond, Hillenbrand is an short term option that makes sense.

As to the trade, Accardo may turn out to be a lost gem, but so far he hasn't shown it. When he begins to throw like Joe Nathan, I'll be ready to jump on Sabean for getting rid of the kid, but so far I like the Giants end of the deal.

yob

by Sayhey on Oct 16, 2006 9:20 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Re: Chulkenbrand
I think the Giants can get him cheap, he has already stated he wants to return, and he is a damn sight better than Lance Niekro.

I very much doubt the Giants can get Hillenbrand cheap. He was paid $5.8m in 2006, and I reckon an arbitration award would be at least $5m. And he's highly unlikely to resign with us for anything less than he would get in arbitration. $5m is not cheap, and Hillenbrand is not worth $5m, unless he can play an adequate third base.

I also dispute that the in-house alternative is Lance Niekro. Not to beat an old drum, but I'd love to see Moises Alou as the first baseman next year.

by Salemicus on Oct 16, 2006 9:47 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Re: Chulkenbrand
Except that Moises Alou is no longer in-house, and there are plenty of rumors of other suitors out there for him. With Dad gone, Mo is almost certain not to come back.

And, from my personal pet peeve dept., "I really like it here and would love to come back," is straight out of the same player PR dossier as "this is a great group of guys," "we'll just play 'em one game at a time," and "that pitch just got away from me." It doesn't actually mean anything. Or if it means anything at all, that meaning is: "I'd really prefer not to spend my few homestands here getting boo'd."

by Roger on Oct 16, 2006 9:55 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Chulkenbrand
One year, $5M is cheap enough for me... just don't screw up the payroll for 2008 and beyond. And if Shea's numbers look good in July and he's not getting into fights with his manager, we could probably flip him for someone better than Accardo.
"Robb Nen is going to get you" - Benito Santiago to Chipper Jones, 10/7/02

by Pants Man on Oct 16, 2006 10:15 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Chulkenbrand
Or if it means anything at all, that meaning is: "I'd really prefer not to spend my few homestands here getting boo'd."

Actually, it does mean something: "I want to squeeze every last dollar out of my free agency, so my agent told me to keep my big trap shut unless it's to say nice things about everyone, especially one of the potential bidders for my services."

Never mind whatever I do!!! Fan is my tresure!!!

by leftymalo on Oct 16, 2006 10:13 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Re: Chulkenbrand
Yes, indeed, that is meaning #1.

by Roger on Oct 16, 2006 10:16 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Chulkenbrand
We do have Chulk back for next year, correct?  Hillenbrand sucked, but at least Chulk had his moments.  I'd definitely like to have him as part of the bullpen next year.

As for re-signing Hillenbrand, it's a tough call.  On the one hand, he has a history of playing fairly well (certainly leagues better than Niekro), so it might not be that bad of an idea to give him a bit more time to prove that he still has the ability to play that way.

On the other hand, he frickin' stunk up the joint last year, and I certainly wouldn't cry to see him go.  It's just, who replaces him?

by ololo3 on Oct 16, 2006 10:51 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Re: Chulkenbrand
If we were talking about any other team in baseball I would be inclined to say, let Hillenbrand walk, decent hitting first basemen grow on trees.  The problem is, we are the Giants and decent first basemen grow on trees for everybody else.  The very thought of Niekro starting is enough to force a knee-jerk reaction to sign Hillenbrand to a multi-year deal, but logic still prevails.  Offer him arbitration, if he accepts we have him keep the spot warm until next year's free agent crop arrives w/out hindering our long-term budget.  If he declines we get the comp pick and can look for a bargain basement stop-gap option for 2007.  If he is signed to a multi-year deal we will know Sabean is in full on panic mode.
"San Diego, which of course in German means a whale's vagina" - Ron Burgundy

by W8ingForATitle on Oct 16, 2006 11:06 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Re: Chulkenbrand
We have an analysis-winner! Everybody else, thanks for playing.
Waiting for Nate, Marcus, Nick, & Emmanuel

by Lyle on Oct 17, 2006 6:16 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Chulkenbrand
Hillenbrand's career OPS+ is 99.  He is suitable as a backup corner IF/PH, no more.  His salary should be more like $500K than $5M

Hee Sop Choi's career OPS is 107
Carlos Pena's career OPS is 109

They are both 2-3 years younger than Hillenbrand.

Both of these guys were CUT in the middle of the season last year - so whether or not they are available or we should sign them, it is a measure of freely available 1B talent.

Note also - that OPS+ of 99 INCLUDES his pathetic performance for us last year.

by zenbitz on Oct 16, 2006 11:08 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Re: Chulkenbrand
Sob. I've been on the Choi/Pena bandwagon for months around here - sadly, Sabean seems to have turned down those overtures. ;)

by Aadik on Oct 16, 2006 11:52 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Chulkenbrand
Don't go down the Choi/Pena roads, please. They both stink and all the people on DodgerThoughts loved Choi. That tells you something. There is a reason both those players were released, they suck. I would rather call up random players from AAA/AA/A than sign one of those two.
"I want to dip my balls in it." Louie

by MeSoKrabby on Oct 16, 2006 12:46 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Chulkenbrand
Calling up random* players from AAA/AA/A might be better than Choi/Pena, but it's certainly better than Hillenbrand.

*Where "Niekro" has been removed from your random number generator

by zenbitz on Oct 16, 2006 1:34 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Chulkenbrand
Let the Tyler Von Schell era begin!

Or, y'know...not. Seriously, didn't we try this already? Travis Ishikawa? Chad Santos? Are these names ringing any bells?

"The first point is whether my brain is still operating...I'll figure that out after the season." - Felipe Alou

by EliminateMe on Oct 16, 2006 2:21 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Chulkenbrand
Hey!  Ishikawa and Santos provided 31 AB of magic, baby!

by North Side Chicago Expatriate Giants Fan on Oct 16, 2006 2:23 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Chulkenbrand
Indeed they did.  And they actually acted and talked like they were sincerely happy to be here.
You know what? I've always thought Jose Valentin looked a lot like Zorro."

by E Ticket on Oct 17, 2006 7:15 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Chulkenbrand
Hell, if the Giants called me up I would be sincerely happy to be there. I would also suck so badly that y'all would be on your knees begging for the return of Damon Minor.
"The first point is whether my brain is still operating...I'll figure that out after the season." - Felipe Alou

by EliminateMe on Oct 18, 2006 10:17 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Chulkenbrand
Speak for yourself and most others, man. I'd gladly put production aside for the sentimental value of EliminateMe playing first base. You could never replace the sweet sweet sugar that was J. T. Snow, but you could easily be some kind of sickiningly sweet sugar substitute in the world of my fandom.
Coming to you by proxy

by howtheyscored on Oct 18, 2006 11:12 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Chulkenbrand
I'm touched by your insane devotion. Here, have my autograph on this restraining order.

And the rest of y'all can call me Splenda from now on.

"The first point is whether my brain is still operating...I'll figure that out after the season." - Felipe Alou

by EliminateMe on Oct 18, 2006 1:35 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Chulkenbrand
I'm not sure I understand the emphasis on "INCLUDES"... wouldn't it be a more powerful stat if he was already below average before he sucked for the Giants?

I'm down on Choi, who hit .207 in AAA this year. But I do like Pena. AT&T wouldn't do him any favors, and he's been a brutally slow starter (.228/.317/.406 before the break in his career), but if he ever put together a full season he would be a steal. Russell Branyan is another cheap three-true-outcomes guy who is a more valuable hitter than people think, although he's older than Pena. Josh Phelps?

I still say offer Shea arbitration, lowball him, and pray for draft picks or for his trade value to soar. But if they scratch that and sign Pena, I would be happy with that as well.

"Robb Nen is going to get you" - Benito Santiago to Chipper Jones, 10/7/02

by Pants Man on Oct 16, 2006 12:39 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Chulkenbrand
I say offer Shea directions to the Greyhound Bus Depot on Seventh Street.  The Giants can take the savings and throw $20.00 bills from the upper deck every seventh inning stretch and get more value than if they pay the Hindenburg anything like a 7 figure income
You know what? I've always thought Jose Valentin looked a lot like Zorro."

by E Ticket on Oct 17, 2006 7:18 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Chulkenbrand
Both of these guys are reclamation projects. I've always liked Pena's potential, but I'd only sign him to a minor league contract and hope he turns it around. Choi hasn't even shown he belongs in the league. I'll take a guy like Hillenbrand as a starter over these guys, at this stage of their careers, any day. Hopefully, Ishikawa is getting ready to bloom into quality hitter and take this job soon, but until he is, or someone better comes available, Hillenbrand is the best of lousy options.
yob

by Sayhey on Oct 17, 2006 8:45 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Chulkenbrand
Hillenbrand is lightyears ahead of Pena and Choi.    If the Giants resign him, he will hit around 15-20 HR with 80 RBI and be around .300. OPS isn't everything, especially since he will bat towards the bottom of the order. At 32 for next season, he is young enough to maintain the production he has given throughout his career.  While his numbers aren't amazing, he is the best free agent 1B avalliable in MLB.  

But what do you guys think about the Giants going after 1B Seung-Yeop Lee?

3 years ago he hit 56 HR in Korea and led all of the WBC in HR's last year.  By signing Lee or Hillenbrand, the Giants will still have plenty of cash to go after a legitamate HR hitter in Carlos Lee or Aramis Ramirez.

Felix Rodriguez will never be forgiven.

by April3rdLifeBegins on Oct 16, 2006 12:08 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Re: Chulkenbrand
Uh - OPS is a better measure of offensive productivity than either HR or RBI. Now, OPS can be "gamed" if a guy is a platooned (ie, he only faces the hitters he's likely to do well against), but Choi and Pena are probably about as likely to outperform Hillenbrand as is the reverse. The ability to play 3rd is some value, but Hillenbrand is NOT a good player.

by Aadik on Oct 16, 2006 12:22 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Chulkenbrand
You mean OPS+ can be used to distort a players worth? How about using it with a player like Choi who hasn't even shown he should be in the league? Or using a career number for Pena when a real picture of the player would show him losing his major league job because his level of play has fallen off so badly? Shocking! I thought OPS+ was an infallible stat.
yob

by Sayhey on Oct 17, 2006 8:54 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Chulkenbrand
Why has Choi shown that he shouldn't be in the league?  Or Pena?  You say, basically, that these guys aren't playing because the "brain trust" of MLB teams have decided that they aren't good.  Or because the Plaschkes and Jenkinses of the world say that they aren't good.

OPS+, or other stats, are supposed to take the guesswork and subjectivity out of the analysis and show whether a guy does in fact belong in MLB.

We have already discussed Pena.  How about Choi?  Yes, he hit .218/.350/.421 (101 OPS+) in 2003.  That isn't any great shakes for a first baseman.  I will even ignore the way Dusty used him that year, not giving him a real chance while throwing Eric Karros out there every day.  Karros outhit Choi, so I won't say that was a bad decision.

In 2004, Choi hit .270/.388/.495 in Florida, a pitchers' park, for a 132 OPS+.  Then he was traded to LA, where he sucked in a whopping 62 AB.  LA gave him 320 AB the next year, and he hit .253/.336/.453.  That isn't great, but he did have an OPS+ of 110.

Maybe he hasn't proven himself to be an ideal MLB first baseman.  But he does have a career 107 OPS+.  He hasn't hit LHP in the majors, but he has barely gotten any AB against them.

How is this a manipulation of OPS+ or any other statistic?  Using the stats, I would say that Choi could start at 1B for some teams, but he would ideally be a backup.  He has shown that he can hit RHP fairly well - certainly better than Shea Hillenbrand can.  His minor league numbers are excellent.  He is still only 27 years old.

Like I said before, I would rather the Giants got someone much better for first base.  But given a choice, I would take Pena first, Choi second, and Hillenbrand third, even if Pena or Choi played mostly against RHP and sat against lefties.

At least by using stats like OPS+, the argument is rational.  That's a far cry from saying that Choi "hasn't even shown he should be in the league," backing your argument up with, well, nothing.  

by North Side Chicago Expatriate Giants Fan on Oct 17, 2006 5:08 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Chulkenbrand
In Choi's case it is a use of the OPS+ career stat in regards to a player who has never started on a regular basis that is the problem, and when he has been used it has often been in platoon situations which makes the validity of OPS+ even more dubious. What that means is that there isn't enough information on Choi in year long starting roles (otherwise known as small sample size) to use a stat like OPS+, especially as a career stat, to gauge what he would be like as a starting first baseman for the Giants.

In Pena's case the use of a career stat, ignores the fact he has gotten worse, and worse to the point he was demoted to the minor leagues. We aren't talking about Pena of three years ago, we are talking about a player who may well be at the end of his playing days. What would be more useful would be to look at trends, and in his case those trend lines are all downhill. Still, as I said, I'd like to see him signed to a minor league contract to see if he can turn it around. His history, power, and glove give enough reason to sign him at that level. It doesn't warrant putting him a starting role - at least not yet.

With Hillenbrand, you have a player who has shown he can hit on the major league level, and while he struggled with the Giants, his numbers overall last year are decent, if not something to write home about. His struggles with the Giants are likely resulting from his pressing too hard after coming from a disastrous situation with management in Toronto. This leads me to believe we can count on average numbers from Hillenbrand next year, and at a relatively low salary number given the fact his problems in Toronto make him less appealing on the free agent market than his overall stats would suggest. In short, I don't think he's a great option, but given the number of holes the Giants have he would seem to me to be good cut-rate signing for a year or two, especially given his ability to play first and third.

Lastly, to use one stat like OPS+ to compare these players is to ignore all of the above. It is simple-minded blindness caused by an attempt to reduce Baseball to one stat. That is hardly rational, even if is steeped in faulty statistical assumptions.

yob

by Sayhey on Oct 18, 2006 12:12 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Chulkenbrand
I wouldn't say Pena or Choi lack a sufficient sample size to make judgments about them.  Choi has 915 major-league ABs, Pena 1685.  And we can draw some conclusions based on minor league numbers as well.

One can disingenuously use any stat to make an argument, but that isn't my goal.  We can say, with a fair amount of certainty, that Pena and Choi generally have been better than Hillenbrand when they have played, and in the major leagues..  That's a starting point.  You are right to look at trends and platoon numbers in evaluating them.

You may come to the conclusion that neither Choi nor Pena would have had better numbers than Hillenbrand if they had been exposed to LHP.  That's certainly fair.  I would be nervous about throwing either of them out there without a lefty-masher backup.  If that is the case, then you are likely to get better numbers from both Choi or Pena and the platoon lefty-masher.  What we do know is that Hillenbrand has "shown he can hit on the major league level" but not very well, and with a poor OBP.

And your last point is simply a straw man argument.  I wouldn't rely on OPS+ and nothing else, or try to reduce analysis to any one stat.  That's why I recommended the lefty-masher platoon idea in an earlier post.  I don't really know if either of them can hit LHP.

Finally, I don't think Hillenbrand is as bad as his Giants OPS+ would indicate.  You seem to think, however, that he will put up "average" numbers next year.  Why?  How do you know?  I happen to agree with you.  His career OPS+ is just below average.  His career EQA is just below average.  But he is trending down, too.  Plus he clearly doesn't get on base enough.  There's a flaw in OPS+, a reasonably good quick and dirty stat.  It undervalues OBP.

by North Side Chicago Expatriate Giants Fan on Oct 18, 2006 5:17 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Chulkenbrand
I certainly believe in stats, but I also believe in scouting.  Look at the player first, before you look at the stats. In Choi's case, if you watch him play you know he is simply incapable of hitting a major league breaking ball.  In that way, he's similar to Feliz who was a more effective hitter as a bench player, utility guy, because once he was in there everyday, major league scouts saw very clearly how to attack him and get him out consistently. Choi has the same failings. As an everyday guy, he's got a flaw that teams will attack consistently every AB. Now a lot of major league pitchers don't have much command of a good breaking ball, and Choi will be able to put up some numbers because of that.  But I'd still look elsewhere.

by Roger on Oct 18, 2006 5:01 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Chulkenbrand
To extend your own analogy, OPS may not be everything but RBI isn't anything. Hillenbrand is an absolutely average player and he'll be payed like he's a good one.
DFA Everybody

by JakeS on Oct 16, 2006 12:38 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Chulkenbrand
The point is not that Hee Sop Pena is the right pick, only that they are better hitters than Hillenbrand, and are as close to "scrap heap" as a baseball player with service time can get.

And OPS+ is certainly good enough to compare players' offense.

No one brings up the fact that Hillenbrand could play 3B?  

by zenbitz on Oct 16, 2006 1:36 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Chulkenbrand
Well, he "can" play 3B.  I think Niekro "can" play 3B too.  Disasters happen all the time.

No one looks at Hillenbrand's numbers and says "wow, those are first baseman numbers!"  If he could play a respectable 3B, then he would be playing 3B.

by North Side Chicago Expatriate Giants Fan on Oct 16, 2006 1:48 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Chulkenbrand
"If he could play a respectable 3B, then he would be playing 3B."

This is the line of thinking that is keeping Carlos Pena in the minors, I suppose. Hillenbrand played his first two seasons at third base... BP rated him as average. (Yes, I ridiule BP defensive metrics on a regular basis and then use them when they serve my purposes... thank you for noticing!) Since then he has been teammates of Bill Mueller, Matt Williams, Chad Tracy, Corey Koskie, Eric Hinske, Troy Glaus, and Pedro Feliz.

My gut tells me that Hillenbrand would be a below average third baseman, but not the train wreck that is generally assumed. But either way I don't think the case is closed.

"Robb Nen is going to get you" - Benito Santiago to Chipper Jones, 10/7/02

by Pants Man on Oct 16, 2006 3:20 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Chulkenbrand
I don't even think that in Hillenbrand's case it is about range.  He may be average or near average in range at 3rd.  At any rate, his range at 1B appears to be great.

But he is an error machine at 3B.  I don't advocate using fielding % to determine who is a good fielder, but Hillenbrand is way below league average for errors.  That doesn't just hurt the team because he made an error.  It also gets into the pitchers' heads and pisses off teammates.  And we aren't talking small sample size, either.  He has 444 games at 3B at this point.

by North Side Chicago Expatriate Giants Fan on Oct 16, 2006 3:49 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Chulkenbrand
"That doesn't just hurt the team because he made an error. It also gets into the pitchers' heads and pisses off teammates."

I have no idea what you're tlaking about.

Sincerely,

Brett Tomko

Ramirez in 2007: I'm in!

by Goofus on Oct 17, 2006 6:55 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Chulkenbrand
You knwo who was the all-timer at that was Gaylord Perry. If somebody made an error behind him he would glare at them and stomp around the mound and glare some more and throttle the rosin bag in disgust and glare some more. Marichal would just sort of nod over as if to say "don't worry about it. I'll pick you up." One of those two guys was a popular teammate.

by Roger on Oct 17, 2006 8:31 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Chulkenbrand
The difference between Gaylord Perry and Matt Morris is Perry pitched his team out of the jams.  Morris just pitches the team under a train
You know what? I've always thought Jose Valentin looked a lot like Zorro."

by E Ticket on Oct 17, 2006 7:24 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Chulkenbrand
Yes, he certainly did -- but he made damn well sure his teammates knew he had to work extra hard for their screw-ups. Great entertainment value.

by Roger on Oct 18, 2006 4:56 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Chulkenbrand
While his numbers aren't amazing, he is the best free agent 1B avalliable in MLB.

Not named Nomar. Or Craig Wilson, who also plays RF. Id' much rather have Wilson than Hillenbrau.

Never mind whatever I do!!! Fan is my tresure!!!

by leftymalo on Oct 16, 2006 2:03 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Chulkenbrand
I think Sabean should absolutely go after Craig Wilson if/when he's going to go the cheap route. He's been in the league the same number of years Hillenbrand has and has put up better numbers almost every year (with fewer at-bats mind you). While he's not going to draw a 100 walks, he's not as big a hack as Hilly is. And in 2004, Wilson outperformed him substantially.
Looks like I picked the wrong year to stop sniffing glue.

by Punch Rockgroin on Oct 16, 2006 2:59 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Chulkenbrand
Seung-Yeop Lee had arthroscopic surgery on his left knee on Friday.  The Korea Times reported that he will rehab for a month.  

There have been articles about Lee staying with the Yomiuri Giants in 2007 and that he has hinted that he will be talking to MLB teams about 2008.  It might just be posturing on his part, since he's still in Japan, and his negotiation position is not high since he's just coming off of surgery.

by hometownboy on Oct 16, 2006 10:03 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Chulkenbrand
Guys named Lee are usually pretty good hitters. So i'm OK with that. Guys named Mays or Bonds are also generally pretty good hitters. Mantle, DiMaggio and Ruth too. But not a lot of them around right now.

by leewhee on Oct 17, 2006 10:31 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Chulkenbrand
Of course, there are always exceptions.
"The first point is whether my brain is still operating...I'll figure that out after the season." - Felipe Alou

by EliminateMe on Oct 17, 2006 12:06 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I have his autograph...
Somewhere...
I blame F.P. Santangelo, while F.P. somehow blames Kuiper.

by WalrusMan on Oct 17, 2006 2:37 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Chulkenbrand
If you want to look at .OPS, Hillenbrand had a .822 in 2006 playing for the Blue Jays last year.  Granted, it took a significant dive once he joined the Giants.  But the fact is that Choi did not play a single game last year and Pena only played 18.  Hillenbrand is not a great player, but at least he played last year and we know what we will get out of him.
Felix Rodriguez will never be forgiven.

by April3rdLifeBegins on Oct 16, 2006 12:38 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Re: Chulkenbrand
Hillenbrand had a 107 OPS+ for the Blue Jays (OPS+ adjusts for league and park).  For the Giants, he had a 97 OPS+.  Neither of those numbers are good for a first baseman, and he really, really stunk with the Giants.

Lance Niekro sucks too, but how much better than Niekro (aka freely available "talent") is Hillenbrand?  Almost $5 million/year better?  Hell no.

Carlos Pena played in 18 MLB games last year.  He has played in many many more MLB games over the past few years.  He put up a 99 OPS+ last year in 18 games.  That isn't great, but OPS undervalues OBP, and his OBP was a very respectable .351.  More importantly, between 2003-2005 for Detroit, Pena managed a 107, 112, and 112 OPS+.  Is Pena great?  Absolutely not.  But Shea Hillenbrand has never had an OPS+ over 109, and he did that in 2002 with Boston.  His numbers look even better than they were, too, because he played in Boston, Arizona, and Toronto, all of which, to varying degrees, are good hitter's parks.

Measuring a player by RBI is a terrible, terrible, terrible mistake.  RBI numbers come when you have men on base.  Much more important is that Hillenbrand is an out machine.  His OBP is entirely dependent on his batting average.  This works out OK when he hits around .300.  But over his career, he has a .287 BA and .325 OBP.  That sucks for a first baseman.  Knocking in runs isn't a skill.  He puts the ball in play with men on base.  So does Pedro Feliz, but he is a total out machine too.  He may knock in a run, but he kills far more rallies by failing to allow the next guy to hit.  By using RBI as a measuring stick, you fail to blame the guys who deserve to be blamed:  outmakers like Feliz and Hillenbrand.

Pena only has a lifetime BA of .331, but that's with a BA of .243.  Most of that is in Detroit, a pitcher's park, but it shows that he probably wouldn't be any better in AT&T.  He might even be worse, but normalized for league and park, he'll still beat Hillenbrand.  And his walks mean that his value isn't dependent on getting hits.

On top of all that, Pena (who is available) will be much much cheaper than Hillenbrand.  I think Pena will be a little better than Hillenbrand.  But let's say he won't be.  Let's say he will be equal to Hillenbrand, or even a little worse.  But Hillenbrand will cost $5 million or more for the year, while Pena will be, and let's be generous here, somewhere between the minimum and $1 million/year.  Hell, let's say as much as $2 million/year.  So at the same production, or even with Pena being slightly worse, do you want to save $3 million, $4 million, or more to put into the rest of the team?  That's probably two decent to good relievers with the savings.

Finally, Pena is a much better hitter vs. RHP, and most pitchers are righties.  Sit him against lefties, and he becomes a better hitter still.  That's when you use Niekro or some other cheap lefty-masher off the bench.  Hillenbrand is crap against RHP, and his lefty-mashing makes him appear better than he normally is.  

Don't get me wrong.  I would prefer that the Giants get an actual star first baseman.  But if that doesn't happen, and with this thin FA crop, it probably won't, then give me Pena rather than Hillenbrand.

by North Side Chicago Expatriate Giants Fan on Oct 16, 2006 1:45 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Chulkenbrand
I would also like to make it clear that I am opposed to signing Hillenbrand and Pena and Choi.

Now starting at first base for your 2007 San Francisco Giants...Krazy Krab!!!!!!

"I want to dip my balls in it." Louie

by MeSoKrabby on Oct 16, 2006 4:37 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Chulkenbrand
Excellent, well-thought-out argument, NorthSide. I'm convinced; Pena over Hillenbrand. At what time will the Pena Bandwagon be leaving the station? I just might be there. Just to, you know, see if anybody else shows up or anything.
Waiting for Nate, Marcus, Nick, & Emmanuel

by Lyle on Oct 17, 2006 6:24 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Hillenberg
Was anyone else listening to the game in probably mid-August when Kuiper mispronounced Hillenbrand's name "Hillenburg"?

Dave Flemming was laughing so hard in the background, I thought we would not be able to finish the broadcast.  

I thought it was funny until I realized why he had pronounced it that way.  By then Hillenbrand was sucking and I'm sure those guys off the air were calling him Hindenburg like we all were.  So when Kuip conflated Hillenbrand and Hindenburg on the air it was Radio Gold!  I tell you...

by Roadie on Oct 16, 2006 1:01 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Re: Chulkenbrand
Why is it such a given that Hillenbrand would decline arbitration if the Giants offered? If he made 5.8M this year, then the Giants couldn't offer him less than $4.6M. I would think that for a guy whose market value is at a career low, it makes sense to take an offer like that on the belief that you will have a better season in 2007 and get a more lucrative deal afterwards. If you turn it down, you could end up having to sign an embarrassingly lowball contract from someone.
"The first point is whether my brain is still operating...I'll figure that out after the season." - Felipe Alou

by EliminateMe on Oct 16, 2006 1:20 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Re: Chulkenbrand
I think that would work out well if accepted arb; we'd only have him for a year and he'd be trying real hard to be a good soldir and play well to re-establish his value.  
Ramirez in 2007: I'm in!

by Goofus on Oct 16, 2006 2:40 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Chulkenbrand
Except that his value was never very high to begin with.  See above.

by North Side Chicago Expatriate Giants Fan on Oct 16, 2006 2:41 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Chulkenbrand
I agree with you eMe. I don't think it's a given that he would decline. And as much as I want to accumulate draft picks, if the Giants don't want to commit $5M and a roster spot to him, they shouldn't offer him arbitration. After the Greg Maddux situation a few years back, teams don't offer arbitration to players they don't want anymore. So, I'm not sitting back and counting all of our extra draft picks just yet. Schmidt and Durham can be offered arbitration risk-free, but with Hillenbrand, Bonds, Feliz, Alou, Kline, Finley, Wright, and Stanton, the Giants have to make sure they're willing to deal with players accepting arbitration before they offer it.
"Robb Nen is going to get you" - Benito Santiago to Chipper Jones, 10/7/02

by Pants Man on Oct 16, 2006 3:29 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Unless there's a wildly cheap..
And amazingly productive 1B out there somewhere, I don't know if we'll get much better than Hillenbrand.  Usually cheap only equals production if you take a big risk.  That was Niekro this year.

If we go with him this year, will Ishikawa or EME be ready in a year?  Perhaps Ishikawa, with EME hurt this year.  So signing Hillenbrand will give us that year we need.  Also he'll give us a probable .280-.290 average.  Even if he gives this, I'd be happy.

I blame F.P. Santangelo, while F.P. somehow blames Kuiper.

by WalrusMan on Oct 16, 2006 1:34 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Re: Unless there's a wildly cheap..
Batting average is such a small part of the equation that I never understand why people use it alone to describe a player's skill set. That's like saying "the Giants should sign Brian Daubach, he has both legs and arms."
DFA Everybody

by JakeS on Oct 16, 2006 2:23 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

I certainly realize that.
Yet given the choice of a guy who hits under .250 and drives in 90+ runs and a guy who hits .280-.290 and drives in 90+ runs I'll take the .285 guy.

This comes from my philosphy that one of Hillenbrand or Feliz will be back.  The Giants will either go out and get a big name 1B or 3B and whichever the Giants sign they will take over the other position.

I blame F.P. Santangelo, while F.P. somehow blames Kuiper.

by WalrusMan on Oct 16, 2006 2:51 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: I certainly realize that.
The choice of the .290 + 90 RBI guy over the .250 + 90 RBI guy might be right if both are equal in the OBP department.

But you take the .250/.340 OBP guy over the .290/.320 OBP guy every time.  It's true that the .290 guy is moving more people around the bases, because the walk doesn't score the guy from second or move him from first to third.  But the higher OBP guy lets more batters hit.  More batters = more runs, regardless of who gets the RBI in the end.

by North Side Chicago Expatriate Giants Fan on Oct 16, 2006 3:08 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

True.
Unfortunately the .250 guy we're looking at is a .250/.280 guy.  ::sobs::
I blame F.P. Santangelo, while F.P. somehow blames Kuiper.

by WalrusMan on Oct 16, 2006 4:15 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Chulkenbrand
Now I feel bad I didn't get drafted out of college.

by SF Pete on Oct 16, 2006 1:42 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Re: Chulkenbrand
Keep working on the knuckler, maybe 2007 will be your year.
The Dodgers are evil.

by irwin on Oct 16, 2006 1:48 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Chulkenbrand
Can you play first?
Mighty Casey would have taken Armando Benitez deep.

by Stuttering John Tamargo on Oct 16, 2006 1:57 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Chulkenbrand
Do you have 2 arms and legs ?

by Aadik on Oct 16, 2006 2:00 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Chulkenbrand
Note, that's total arms and legs. We're not picky, given that your competition is Lance Niekro.
DFA Everybody

by JakeS on Oct 16, 2006 2:25 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Chulkenbrand
It seems like all the off season moves come down to the one big question.  Are we going to be able to nab Aramis Ramirez?  If not then we'll have to choose when Happy and Hilly at 3rd.  I can't see signing Hilly to play 1b, but I'd have to say his hitting does give him the edge over Happy.  

by orangeandblackattack on Oct 16, 2006 2:56 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Re: Chulkenbrand
I don't know why people are so hung up on Hillenbrand coming back. There are plenty of free-agent and trade options.

Aubrey Huff and Nomar should be reasonably priced options. Adam Dunn, Richie Sexson and Pat Burrell are available in trade if you pick up the salary. Carlos Lee is around if you want to shell out a longterm contract.

And there are many low-cost options, too, like Carlos Pena or, hell, Mark Sweeney. Dan Johnson can probably be had cheaply, or maybe one of the failed prospects of Anaheim. A year from now EME or Ishikawa may be good enough to step in, though I wouldn't count on it.

I don't see much reason to fret over Hillenbrand unless he's REALLY cheap.

by Dan from NM on Oct 16, 2006 8:26 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Re: Chulkenbrand
Slowly but surely, we will convince the world of the wisdom of trading for Burrell. I still don't understand why he was treated like anthrax on this year's trade market. Something we don't know? Is he clubhouse poison?  
Never mind whatever I do!!! Fan is my tresure!!!

by leftymalo on Oct 17, 2006 12:05 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Chulkenbrand
If the Phillies either 1) pay a big chunk of his salary, 2) take Mandos, the Hands of Fate off our hands, or 3) ask for very little in return for our taking his giant contract, then I am all for Burrell at 1B.

by North Side Chicago Expatriate Giants Fan on Oct 17, 2006 3:57 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Chulkenbrand
I think 3) is the most likely option. He's owed $27 M the next two years. In his 6-yr career he's averaged 31 HR, 32 doubles, 99 BBs a year. He's played in at least 140 games in all but one year (excluding rookie year). He strikes out a lot. He doesn't ground into a crapload of DPs.

The Giants can afford to overpay him for two years.

One surprise in looking at his contract detes: he has a full no-trade clause. And he signed the deal after only 2+ years in the league. Wow -- give his agent a big bonus for that one.

Never mind whatever I do!!! Fan is my tresure!!!

by leftymalo on Oct 17, 2006 10:44 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Burrell is probably going to be moved
From Rotoworld:

Suggesting Pat Burrell is not the answer, Philadelphia general manager Pat Gillick says the Phils plan to seek more offense this offseason. "We're going to have to continue to look for a little more offense," he said. "We know that at this point, Pat has had a difficult time protecting [Ryan] Howard. We're going to have to continue to have to make an adjustment in that area." It's going to be hard to move Burrell with that massive contract he has, but clearly he needs a fresh start.

"Robb Nen is going to get you" - Benito Santiago to Chipper Jones, 10/7/02

by Pants Man on Oct 17, 2006 11:39 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Chulkenbrand
All I know is that I had him on my fantasy team in 2005 and the Phils regularly took him out of the game for defensive purposes and he's not that old.  I would think that they would have moved him to 1B if they thought that he would be good enough defensively to play everyday.

But I'm OK with taking him on if it means getting some value out of Benitez. It won't kill the payroll to take him on, it frees up a bunch of money in two years to maybe get a top free agent then, there's no obvious hitter to pursue, like Tejada or Vlad or Beltran in this year's class of free agents.

Tanks for the mammories.

by obsessivegiantscompulsive on Oct 17, 2006 11:52 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Chulkenbrand
Very good list, Dan.  Here would be my priority list of 1B candidates:

1. Pena/Sop Choi
I suppose Pena is the preferred of the two, but they are very similar hitters.  I can't understand all the hate for Sop Choi, other than the part where he flopped in AAA this season.
Both players have their drawbacks.  They haven't been succesful in a season.  They are both the antithesis of a succesful Big Phone hitter; both are low average LH home run hitters.
But either one should be a decent hitter for free (they can platoon with Niekro) and the Giants would be wise to save money in order to fill so many other holes.
However their biggest drawback is that Sabean will never ever sign them.

2.  Aubrey Huff
Two consecutive off-seasons make him a good value for good production.

3. Craig Wilson
Very underrated and another good value.  Huff however, has a larger sample to draw from.  Both will be 30 next season.

4. Pat Burrell
Only if the Phillies take our proposed Benitez, plus spare parts, deal, or give us money back instead of taking Mando.  Sabean would never think of this, anyhow.

5. Adam Dunn
He's the best player available (only 27).  I would trade Sanchez or Lowry to get him.  His 2007 contract ($10.5 million) is appropriate.  He has a $13.5 million club option in '08.

6. Jimmy Sexson
Makes identical money to Burrell, but likely doesn't have the bad rep for the Mariners to include Beniterz or money back in a deal.

7.  Carlos Lee
Won't be cheap because of two consectutive career years.  Only 30, however.  Seems that Texas won't let him go, since they traded for him.

8. Hillenbrand
No contract.  Just arbitration, as Grant described.  Best, if he declines, we get the draft pick and then can sign or trade for one of the players above.  One year at $5 million is not the end of the world.  The real Hillenbrand, although averagish for a ML hitter, is a lot better than his 2006 Giants performance.

9. Garciaparra
With incentives, made about $7.5 million AND had a good year, which means he should cost something like $8 million for a one year contract.  Not a great value considering he's physically fragile and he's fallen off a cliff the second half of his career.

10. Dan Johnson
Should be about as productive as Hillenbrand, and makes nothing.  But Bean will likely ask for too much to trade him.

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power the world will know peace." - Jimi Hendrix

by GiantJim on Oct 17, 2006 8:51 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

nice work, Jim
"Robb Nen is going to get you" - Benito Santiago to Chipper Jones, 10/7/02

by Pants Man on Oct 17, 2006 9:59 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Chulkenbrand
I still don't want Hee Sop Choi, if only because he managed this: He made life hard for the Dodgers and their fans (my roomate is a D*ger fan, so I have firsthand experience with this) by his poor play) and I still can't stand him and his hacktastic game.

Craig Wilson probably tops my list at first base, I'm not necessarily against this Pena thing, and at this point I'd still say that if my only choices ended up being Feliz as a Utility guy or Hillenbrand at first and third, I'd take Hillenbrand mostly because I'm so sick and damn tired of Pedro Feliz. Now if I thought about it logically... well, I'm not prepared to do that right now.

Coming to you by proxy

by howtheyscored on Oct 17, 2006 11:03 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Chulkenbrand
I just want to be able to chant "Hee Seop Choi!" because it sounds fun.
Out of my way, all of you. This is no place for loafers! Join me or die! Can you do any less?

by Natto on Oct 17, 2006 11:31 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Chulkenbrand
I didn't comb through these posts to figure out who exactly was suggesting the Giants sign Hee Sop Kong Phooey.  Whoever it is, report to the firing squad immediately.  I don't care what your slide rule says, he's about the worst option I can think of.

However, if we're handing out minor league candy/contracts, and Pena is available, I think he could/should get one.  I don't know that he's ever going to do much different, but it might be handy to have him in Fresno.

BB

All those Giants fans down in Giants land love that Crazy Crab!

by BlackDougal on Oct 16, 2006 9:44 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Re: Chulkenbrand
Clearly you lack the imagination to stick Jose Vizcaino at 1B!

Bottom line:  Hillenbrand sucks.

by zenbitz on Oct 17, 2006 10:31 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Are you kidding?!
Jose Vizcaino: Closer
Coming to you by proxy

by howtheyscored on Oct 17, 2006 11:04 PM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Now that's imagination!
Imagination, hallucination, something like that, anyway.
"The first point is whether my brain is still operating...I'll figure that out after the season." - Felipe Alou

by EliminateMe on Oct 18, 2006 10:22 AM PDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Chulkenbrand
Shea Hindenburg
  1.  Sucko player
  2.  With a bad attitude
  3.  Free Agent
  4.  Why is this even being discussed?
You know what? I've always thought Jose Valentin looked a lot like Zorro."

by E Ticket on Oct 17, 2006 10:59 AM PDT reply actions   0 recs

Re: Accardo
I agree with Grant, I was pulling for Accardo because of his non-drafted nature as well, he's the classic underdog achiever, how can we not root for him?

However, I disagree that the Giants punted the draft pick with Ponson.  I think the Giants got tired of his "highness" attitude and lack of maturity and did not want to risk getting stuck with him another year in case there was not an idiot GM out willing to sign him.  Looking at this track record after signing with the Orioles, Ponson clearly thinks that he's high and mighty and still immature.  

Anyone know how his appeal, to get back his $7M salary that he lost when the Orioles dumped him over his brushes with the law, worked out?

Tanks for the mammories.

by obsessivegiantscompulsive on Oct 17, 2006 12:00 PM PDT reply actions   0 recs

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