Six added to the 40-man

by wedge on Nov 17, 2005 11:56 PM PST Comment 45 comments

Giants added six to the 40-man roster:

Kelyn Acosta
Jon Coutlangus
Jesus Reina
Travis Ishikawa
Nate Schierholtz
Eliezer Alfonzo

http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/article.jsp?ymd=20051117&content_id=1269766&vkey=news_mlb &fext=.jsp&c_id=mlb

So.... Ishikawa and Schierholtz, sure. Coutlangus, Acosta -- OK (both throw hard and might have gotten Rule 5'ed, plus Coutlangus has high "coolness" factor). Reina... "scouts like him," so I guess I'll take their word for it.

Alfonzo?

Nice guy, good year, but -- isn't he old enough to be expendable? Or am I just being an ageist fool?

This FanPost is reader-generated, and it does not necessarily reflect the views of McCovey Chronicles. If the author uses filler to achieve the minimum word requirement, a moderator may edit the FanPost for his or her own amusement.

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Re: Six added to the 40-man

Plus Alfonzo had a drug suspension this year.

Not protecting Sadler was a real surprise, I bet he gets picked up but doesn't stick.

I forger Reina needed protected, but he may be a keeper.

Acosta - Given the level he played at, I am more than a little surprised.

The Dodgers ARE evil.

by irwin on Nov 18, 2005 12:30 AM PST reply actions 0 recs

No Brian Wilson ?!

Unless the Giants got some kind of exemption for his first year, when he was still out after surgery - this is astonishing. We've all assumed he was Rule 5 eligible this year and an absolute lock to be added to the 40-man roster.

by FavoriteSpring on Nov 18, 2005 7:20 AM PST reply actions 0 recs

Re: No Brian Wilson ?!

OK, I see in Wilson's AFL journal he says that he signed with the Giants only at the end of the 2003 summer and went to Instructional League that September. So I guess that year doesn't count in terms of Rule 5 eligibility.

by FavoriteSpring on Nov 18, 2005 9:36 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

don't scare me like that ;-)

Did you ever go to sleep with Bo Derek and wake up with Bo Diddley?

by kenshin1 on Nov 18, 2005 9:39 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: No Brian Wilson ?!

He may have signed a contract for 2004.

The Dodgers ARE evil.

by irwin on Nov 19, 2005 6:37 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

no contract for 2003

Just a note from Alan Schwarz's recent interview with Jimmie Lee Solomon:
http://www.baseballamerica.com/today/news/051118minorchanges.html

The statements in this interview definitely imply that because Brian Wilson did not sign a contract for the 2003 season, he has an extra year before he is eligible for the Rule 5 draft.

by steve S on Nov 22, 2005 12:06 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: No Brian Wilson ?!

Actually, it works the other way- you can choose someone under rule 5 who is injured, keep him on the DL or in rehab assignments all season and thereby circumvent the requirement that he be added to the 25 man roster. BA in thier annual Rule 5 best bets article always profile 1 or 2 of these.

by prospecthound on Nov 18, 2005 11:19 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: No Brian Wilson ?!

there is a limit as to how many days can be spent ont the DL and on rehab. What it exactly is, I am not sure.

The Dodgers ARE evil.

by irwin on Nov 18, 2005 6:15 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

rehab time

A player on the 40-man roster may be placed on a rehab assignment in the minors leagues for up to 20 days (or up to 30 days for pitchers).

There is no limit to time spent on the DL (at least during the season since you may have to activate players from the 60-day DL during the off-season so that they do then count as a player on the 40-man roster).

by steve S on Nov 22, 2005 11:59 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: rehab time

I am pretty sure, that for purpose of rule five, the player must be active for a certain number of days in order to stay with the draftin team.

thanks for the wilson link

The Dodgers ARE evil.

by irwin on Nov 22, 2005 12:10 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: rehab time

I see that Jim Callis addressed this question today:

"With injured players... a team can't just stash them on the disabled list all season and retain their rights. A Rule 5 draftee must spend 90 days on the active roster before he can be demoted without being exposed to waivers."

http://www.baseballamerica.com/today/columnists/askba.html

So even if you draft someone who is injured - as soon as the player is activated from the DL, even if its a year later, he has to spend three months on the 25-man roster. He can't be sent to the minors before that.

by FavoriteSpring on Nov 25, 2005 3:19 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Acosta

Nice call by Steve S and DrB on Acosta - they both touted him in Grant's discussion of relief prospects in the system a few weeks ago.

http://www.mccoveychronicles.com/story/2005/10/25/172250/90

Also, I see that John Manuel mentioned him in his February chat when asked about sleepers: "I'll also say watch for Kelyn Acosta, who was blowing 97 mph before hurting his elbow last year . . . if he comes back healthy."

http://www.baseballamerica.com/today/chat/050216jm.html

by FavoriteSpring on Nov 18, 2005 9:54 AM PST reply actions 0 recs

Alfonso

If the Giants think Alfonso has a solid chance to be their backup catcher this season, this move makes sense. Otherwise, not so much.

With a defensive-minded catcher as a durable starter, I'd like it if our backup catcher could hit a little, and Alfonso seems to be well ahead of Knoedler with the bat. Of course, if they go and sign an Einar Diaz or something (ugh... why wouldn't this shock me?), then this is a waste of a spot on the 40-man, and Alfonso could be dumped in the spring to accomodate a last-minute roster move.

"Robb Nen is going to get you" - Benito Santiago to Chipper Jones, 10/7/02

by Pants Man on Nov 18, 2005 11:05 AM PST reply actions 0 recs

Re: Alfonso

I think that's why they did it. He's at least their fall-back option for backup catcher.

Is there anyone not protected that you guys would have?

by Nick Schulte on Nov 18, 2005 11:09 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Alfonso

Related to your question: what is the rules on protecting players and at what point are they vulnerable to the Rule 5 draft? And therefore, who are the eligible players this year for the Giants besides the six just placed on the roster? I'm not sure who is eligible, does BA have a list?

Yes, I agree that he's a fallback. Plus, they might decide to have him catch in AA with the Connecticut Defenders with the "Chosen Ones" from San Jose, to strengthen that team and help it win the AA championship (Sabean said that he wanted to instill in them a winning attitude), while having Knoedler get most of the catching duties in AAA now with Hamid gone, instead of sharing the duties.

by Martin BiasedGiantsFanatic on Nov 18, 2005 2:46 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Rule V Rules

This explains it pretty well. I don't know when this was and if anything has changed since but I don't think so:

http://www.baseballamerica.com/today/columnists/askbarule5.html

"Major league teams must protect players on their 40-man rosters within three or four years of their original signing. Those left unprotected are available to other teams as Rule 5 picks.

Players who were 18 or younger on June 5 preceding the signing of their first contract must be protected after four minor league seasons. Players 19 and older must be protected after three seasons.

But here's the kicker: To prevent teams from drafting players willy-nilly, each Rule 5 pick must be kept in the major leagues the entire following season or be offered back to his former team for half of the $50,000 selection price. Few players are ready for such a jump, so only about 10-15 get picked each year. Fewer still last the whole season in the big leagues."

I don't know who else is eligible in the Giant's organization. But other people here do know.

by Nick Schulte on Nov 18, 2005 3:42 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Rule V Rules

Thanks Nick, that's a great article, I've also wondered about how Rule 5 applied to AAA as well and there was something in there on that too.

Oh, the article was originally written in 1995 but is suppose to be updated as needed, so it is suppose to be evergreen. For example, there is a note in there referring to 1998.

by Martin BiasedGiantsFanatic on Nov 18, 2005 4:57 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Left Off

The name that jumps out as being a guy that other teams might be interested in is Bill Sadler who has a mid 90's fastball and has made steady progress through the system as a middle reliever. He could well stick with some team that is looking for cheap bullpen help.

If I was a GM looking for cheap pitching, I'd also take a hard look at Joe Bateman.

Pat Misch was also left off. He's been a starter who really doesn't have reliever's type stuff and he's clearly not ready for the majors, so probably not much risk there.

I'm not sure if Chris Begg and Brian Mazone are eligible. If so, some team scraping the bottom of the barrel might take a shot at one of them.

Other than that, not much to worry about.

by DrBGiantsfan on Nov 18, 2005 5:58 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Left Off

My guess would be that the three aren't picked.

Sadler's walk rate had been horrendous until last year, when he repeated AA, and got his walks down and strikeouts up and kept his hit rate down. Given the smaller number of innings relievers pitch (though he did pitch 84.1 innings in relief this season), this could be a fluke or it could be progress. But dropping 2 whole walks per 9 innings is pretty good, as well as sharply increasing his k-rate, so a team could be attracted if they are desperate for a cheap middle reliever and aren't competing for the playoffs.

I like Bateman too. I was disappointed he spent the whole year at San Jose again, he did well in 2004 in Norwich in his short stint there, as well as San Jose, but ended up at San Jose again all season in 2005. I thought he might make AAA this season. That would be some leap, going from A-ball to the majors, again it would take a team desperate for a cheap middle reliever and aren't competing for the playoffs.

Misch regressed a lot this past season, doing worse in just about any category you want to look at, except for IP (4.1 more IP), failing at the jump to AAA and falling back to AA. I agree, not much risk of losing him.

Begg, I don't think is eligible, his three years looks like it will be up in 2006 as he was signed in 2003. His stats are nice, I assume he'll be protected next year if he continues his progress.

Mazone looks like it will be up in 2007 as he was signed in 2004. He was caught with steroids this past season so I assume most teams will view his stats for the past two seasons with some skepticism.

by Martin BiasedGiantsFanatic on Nov 19, 2005 3:19 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Repeating?

I don't think it's quite accurate to say that Sadler repeated AA. He actually pitched most of 2004 in San Jose and was a mid-late season callup to Norwich. I saw him pitch in relief of Matt Cain for San Jose early that season and I have to say it looked to me like his fastball had more pop than Cain's, although I didn't see any radar readings.

I'm always a little partial to players who I've personally seen, especially if they played well in the games I saw, but I really like Sadler and I hope no other team picks him in Rule 5.

by DrBGiantsfan on Nov 19, 2005 7:20 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Sadler

Jim Callis at Baseball America has Sadler on his short-list of possible Rule 5 picks.

"Among the guys who could get a look in the major league Rule 5 draft are: lefty reliever Russ Rohlicek (Cubs); righthanders Rafael Rodriguez (Angels), Billy Sadler (Giants), Bob Zimmermann (Angels); catcher John Jaso (Devil Rays); first basemen Ryan Mulhern (Indians) and Brandon Sing (Cubs); and outfielders Adam Boeve (Pirates) and Jason Cooper (Indians)."

http://www.baseballamerica.com/today/columnists/askba.html

by FavoriteSpring on Nov 25, 2005 3:06 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Alfonso

Martin, although I certainly wouldn't be surprised if Sabean gets a Veteran Backup Catcher this winter to help Matheny, and stashes Knoedler in AAA, and thereby has Alfonzo in AA.....I also wouldn't be surprised if Knoedler makes the team and Alfonzo goes to AAA. And I believe I was widely derided for suggesting a few weeks ago that Alfonzo would be added to the 40-man. Apologies accepted all around. ;)

by Lyle on Nov 18, 2005 4:12 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Alfonso

I guess I would be surprised if the Giants go with Knoedler. Sabean has never gone with a inexperienced prospect as the main backup to start a season. In addition, Sabean said specifically that he was looking for an experienced catcher to add to the roster. So I expect him to get somebody.

I don't think I was one of the ones who derided you but I do recall that you did say that. It makes sense to add Alfonzo to the 40-man if they want to win with the group at San Jose when they move to AA Connecticut in 2006; at 26, older than most players there, he should continue to do well there like he did this past season. Also, he had the 2nd or 3rd most homers in the Giants farm system with 23 total homers (Ishikawa was fourth with 22, according to the sfgiants article and I know that Linden was first) and he's not so old that he might not develop into a nice backup eventually, catchers do take longer to develop so maybe he just need more time.

by Martin BiasedGiantsFanatic on Nov 18, 2005 5:28 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

my take

I guess there is a rule I don't know about Brian Wilson's eligibility/ineligibility for the Rule 5 draft. He signed in September 2003, so December 8th would be the third Rule 5 draft since he signed.

I agree the Billy Sadler and Pat Misch omissions are interesting.
1) Why is Misch unprotected when Brian Burres remains protected?
2a) Why is Sadler unprotected when the very inexperience Acosta is protected?
2b) Why is Sadler unprotected when Erick Threets remains protected?

I don't think there is any surprise about Alfonzo, given that Sabean had reportedly told a group of season tickets holders that there plans were to protect Alfonzo. Reina and Coutlangus would probably not be protected if they were righties everything else equal. I find it surprising the Giants protected Acosta given they did not protect Hennessey a couple years ago.

I am not surprised that the Giants did not protect Mike Mooney, Todd Jennings, Brian Buscher, Chris Begg, Joe Bateman and Mike Cervenak.

The Giants now have 37 players on the 40-man roster. Assuming the Giants add at least another four free agents this winter (a starting pitcher, a first baseman, a middle infielder and a backup catcher), it would seem the Giants are going to remove later from the 40-man roster one of the prospects currently protected on the roster.

by steve S on Nov 19, 2005 11:36 AM PST reply actions 0 recs

Re: my take

I wouldn't release Burres in order to protect Misch.

I'm very high on Acosta. Look for a breakout season next year. I would have picked him over Sadler too.

As for Erick Threets, no way would I release him either. The kid reportedly once threw a pitch 105 MPH! I saw him pitch once. Based on my observation, I have no reason to doubt that. Look no further than the role Bobby Jenks played in this year's postseason to see why we just shouldn't give up on Threets even if the hope seems pretty dim right now.

I know that Sabean signalled his intention to protect Alfonzo, but I just don't see it. That's who I would have left off to make room for Sadler. Hopefully, it will all work out, but I sure hope we don't lose Sadler.

by DrBGiantsfan on Nov 19, 2005 1:01 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: my take

I think Misch will slip through, or at least get returned. However, I would take a shot at him if I were a team short on pitching. [say, Kansas City]

I am really surprised by the Acosta protection.

The more I think about it, I just can't see Acosta sticking with a team for a whole year, but I could see Sadler have success.

The Dodgers ARE evil.

by irwin on Nov 19, 2005 1:34 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: my take

Yeah... I wouldn't expect Burres to be a Rule V selection, but he would have to be waived, not just "unprotected"... that's a pretty big tiebreaker right there.

I don't expect the Giants to start the season with four catchers on their 40-man roster... if a free agent is brought in, I would expect Alfonzo to be released. A prospect could be dealt to acquire a first baseman or a pitcher, or the Giants could give up on Burres or Threets if they don't throw well in the spring. I expect Ellison, Niekro, Correia and Linden to make the team, but if they don't, they may be out of options and could end up off the roster. Do the Giants consider Angel Chavez to be a part of their future, or could he be replaced by a minor-league free agent or two (i.e. a Cody Ransom type not named Cody Ransom)?

It looks like they have enough options.

Hmmm... I'm still a little worried about Wilson.

"Robb Nen is going to get you" - Benito Santiago to Chipper Jones, 10/7/02

by Pants Man on Nov 19, 2005 1:51 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: my take

Linden and Correia are out of options, by my count.

The Dodgers ARE evil.

by irwin on Nov 19, 2005 2:07 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: my take

I have a couple questions....

I know not every team picks in the Rule 5 Draft. Which teams get to pick each year, and will the Giants pick this year or not?

Sabean stop giving away our first round draft picks!!

by z4 landshark on Nov 19, 2005 6:18 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: my take

Every team is allowed to pick, but for many reasons some don't.

Among the Reasons:
No space on the forty
Save money
Don't like any of the players

The Dodgers ARE evil.

by irwin on Nov 19, 2005 6:35 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: my take

so does anyone know if the Giants are going to pick? im guessin not, and also is the order the same as the amateur draft?

Sabean stop giving away our first round draft picks!!

by z4 landshark on Nov 20, 2005 12:05 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: my take

Same order. Judging by the free spots on the 40-man, and the holes they need to fill, I would be mildly suprised if they picked.

The Dodgers ARE evil.

by irwin on Nov 20, 2005 9:48 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: my take

They picked up somebody in the minor league phase of the Rule 5 draft, don't recall his name at the moment, last season, but, yes, they, as well as most other teams, do not use Rule 5 often.

The last guy I remember was a hot-shot MI who made a great impression but didn't make the final cut so he returned back to the team we drafted him from. I think he has bounced up and down but hasn't done anything at the major league level yet.

But yeah, they probably won't be drafting anyone.

by Martin BiasedGiantsFanatic on Nov 20, 2005 10:11 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

You mean Wilson Delgado?

Also, I believe a few years ago we took a veteran relief pitcher who had signed a minor league contract elsewhere. I don't remember who it was, or if it was before or after Delgado.

Of course, a Delgado acquisition would be nice this year too... as in Carlos. Thome doesn't seem to be an option now that he's stated that he'll only agree to a trade to an AL team.

by FavoriteSpring on Nov 20, 2005 10:50 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: You mean Wilson Delgado?

No, digging into Baseball Reference, the guys name was Feliz Escalona (wow, it even lists his selection by the Giants in the Rule V draft from Houston, then lost him to Tampa Bay in waivers).

He'll be 27 next season and spent one and a part seasons with TB, the rest of the season with Baltimore, then became a free agent and signed with the Yankees and been with them the past two seasons. He has been in the minors for the most part since we drafted him, getting his most exposure the year TB got him (they must have had to keep him on the MLB roster). Needless to say, he hasn't done much with anybody so far.

by Martin BiasedGiantsFanatic on Nov 21, 2005 8:47 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Article on Geno Espineli

Didn't want to start another thread but wanted to post the link to an article about Eugene "Geno" Espineli, one of the San Jose Giants relievers: http://www.katymagazine.com/pdf/articles/2005/summer/Eugene%20Espinelli%20SF%20Giants%20Katy%20Texas %20Katy%20Magazine.pdf

Nothing newsbreaking, just a nice human interest story, giving a short life history. I'll definitely be rooting for him more after this article.

by Martin BiasedGiantsFanatic on Nov 19, 2005 12:23 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

Espinelli

Thanks for the link.

Geno actually pitched pretty well for San Jose last year, 4-0, 2.68.69.1 IP, 55 K, 24 BB. He was inexplicably promoted all the way to Fresno about midseason and really struggled there. 1-1, 6.38, 18.1 iP, 12 K, 8 BB. Even so, his secondary stats weren't horrible there either. I would think he should pitch for CT next year with the possibility of advancing him to Fresno at midseason if he's doing well. I wonder about having him try starting?

by DrBGiantsfan on Nov 19, 2005 6:37 PM PST reply actions 0 recs

Espinelli

Strictly a loogy - fb tops out ~85

The Dodgers ARE evil.

by irwin on Nov 19, 2005 7:10 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Loogy?

Do you have a reference? I haven't seen any scouting reports on
Espinelli. Does anyone know the story of why he was up in Fresno for awhile?

by DrBGiantsfan on Nov 19, 2005 9:01 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Loogy?

Saw him pitch myself.

For a while, he was the only lefty in fresno. I suspec that is why he was called up.

The Dodgers ARE evil.

by irwin on Nov 19, 2005 10:49 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Loogy?

Calleaguers guy has 81-87

http://www.calleaguers.com/EspinelliGeno05.html

The Dodgers ARE evil.

by irwin on Nov 19, 2005 10:53 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Starter or Reliever

Maybe I'm wrong, but I've always thought that soft throwing lefties like Jamie Moyer and Woody Reuter made better starters than relievers. If you need a pitcher to get one or two hitters out at a critical juncture of the game, isn't it better to have someone who can put the hammer down like Eyre?

by DrBGiantsfan on Nov 20, 2005 9:27 AM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Well sure

You would rather have Eyre, or Billy Wagner for that matter. But, if you need someone to face only lefties, and is cheap, a guy like Espinelli may do the trick. Not ideal, but serviceable. {though I would be surprised if he was even that}

I do think that I agree with your statement about softballing lefties having a beter shot at starting. But I think it requires the right situation [good defense, hard throwing starters in the rotation, big stadium]

The Dodgers ARE evil.

by irwin on Nov 20, 2005 9:55 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Well sure

I dunno. Jesse Orosco hasn't put a hammer down or picked one up either for about 20 years, and I don't think Mike Myers has ever handled one.

by Roger on Nov 22, 2005 1:54 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Espinelli

You're welcome.

Yes, he did pitch pretty well. I was ranking all the players in the Cal League and he ranked highly in ERA, h9, hr9, and WHIP. His k9 was nice at 7.7 but ranked about middle of the league. Walks are his problem, w9 of 3.36, but not overly so.

Given that he is 6'4", 200 pounds, it's surprising he doesn't have much velocity. According to the article, his head coach was not that "concerned with velocity of pitches but movement and control." So perhaps that's why.

I don't know the story, but I would guess that the Giants did not want to disrupt the relievers at AA (aren't a number of them projects, like Simon and Threets?) by moving them up to AAA when Munter, Taschner, and Accardo moved up to the majors. So maybe they decided to try Geno there since he was doing very well at San Jose and is on the younger side for Cal League, just to see how he does and how he reacts.

by Martin BiasedGiantsFanatic on Nov 19, 2005 10:50 PM PST up reply actions 0 recs