To Sabean Critics
I have argued until I am blue in the face (and will audition for 'Blue Man Group' this weekend at the Venetian) with those whose knee jerk reaction to anything Sabean, is to criticize. I particularly oppose the sort of criticism that goes "the farm system is in shambles, therefore Sabean is an idiot." These - and much of - the criticsm jsut ignores the reason for the move or decision by Sabean. Sure, every move can be criticized, I just think it is uninformed and not very helpful to criticize without understanding the greater plan/picture. Now, thanks to Orange and Black, we are directed to a site that explains the stragtegy of the recent past, particularly as it relates to decisions that had to be made due to the team building its own ball park (the appreciation of which never occurs to the Sabean critics). So, I direct you to the text of the following article which gives some perspective and explanation (as well as describes the recent change in strategy and the progress being made - and made quickly to replenish the farm system) of the strategy and changing strategy of the past 5-6 years.
http://www.baseballamerica.com/today/prospects/features/263377.html
If this link doesn't work, check outn Orange and Black's diary regarding BAs top 10 prospects. And thank you Orange and Black.
This FanPost is reader-generated, and it does not necessarily reflect the views of McCovey Chronicles. If the author uses filler to achieve the minimum word requirement, a moderator may edit the FanPost for his or her own amusement.
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Re: To Sabean Critics
Re: To Sabean Critics
by howtheyscored on Feb 22, 2007 8:29 PM PST up reply actions
Re: To Sabean Critics
It's also difficult to consider him even average if you give more weight to recent performance.
Re: To Sabean Critics
Doesn't mean he shouldn't be the GM of the Giants, it just means the jury is still out until the post-Bonds era.
Re: To Sabean Critics
As recently as the end of the 2002 season I was willing to make an argument for Brian's being one of if not the best general managers in the big leagues. Now for this year's state of the Sabean:
Brian Sabean's strategy as general manager of the Giants reminds me of those who live on their entire salary and figure they will take care of retirement when it comes around. Brian has mortgaged the Giants future both by trading prospects to fill present holes and ultimately by giving up draft picks in order to sign mediocre free agents.
Over at El Lefty Malo, Lefty used the prospect ratings of Kevin Goldstein of BP to show that the Giants prospects were the 24th-best in the majors. And that included the potentially-awesome Tim Lincecum and Angel Villalona as well as the highly intriguing Jonathan Sanchez. Unfortunately, beyond that trio, the cupboard is bare -- especially with regard to prospects who are likely to have an impact over the remainder of this decade.
Brian has stated that the playoffs are a crapshoot, so his goal has been to put together a Giants team good enough to make the playoffs. In four of his ten seasons to date, he has been successful in that regard.
Yet Brian has constructed few if any great teams, winding up primarily with teams that were on the cusp of the playoffs, one way or the other. Four years they made the postseason. Four years they didn't. Then the past two seasons, as the strategy of finding value in older players has begun to play itself out, the Giants have become a sub-.500 team.
As we look at 2007, the Giants are once again loaded with older players who are mostly average-to-good, but with little greatness. Thanks primarily to drafting Matt Cain and Tim Lincecum with their first-round draft choices in 2002 and 2006, the Giants are building some good, young pitching. But after April, the Giants will have no one among their starting eight who is younger than 32. Omar Vizquel will hit 40 in April; Bonds, 43 in July. Aside from Bonds, none of their everyday players is likely to be an all-star without having a near-career season.
The Giants pitching in 2007 should be improved. But their biggest problem the past two seasons hasn't been pitching as much as their having averaged fewer than 700 runs per year. The Giants offensive woes began when Bonds missed almost the entire 2005 season. But they didn't disappear with a healthy Bonds in 2006, and they likely haven't disappeared in 2007. They no longer have Moises Alou, their second-best hitter the past two seasons, nor have they adequately replaced him (DAVE ROBERTS???).
A wonderful renaissance by Ray Durham after returning from the disabled list in 2006 helped save the Giants from complete embarassment at the plate, but is it realistic for the aging Durham to come close to repeating his career year?
Unless they are able to pull off the miracle of either somehow trading for much-needed power or having Barry Bonds remain healthy and returning to his 2001-2004 form, the Giants just aren't going to score enough runs to be an excellent team. They may well have difficulty being a good one.
With a starting lineup with no one younger than the stated 32 and no particularly intriguing players above Class A in the minors, the Giants hitting may not revive until the arrival of Angel Villalona. Angel is only 16 years of age, so how likely is he to be a big factor before the end of the decade?
Yes, the Giants pitching appears on the verge of being postseason material. But since it is run differential that leads to the wins that put a team into a high postseason seed, the Giants will need good hitting, as well. Just where is that going to come from?
Without Barry Bonds, the Giants would likely struggle to score 700 runs. As recently as 2004 they scored 850, but barring a miracle they won't approach that figure in 2007. Put 850 runs with the Giants pitching, and you have a very good team. Put 800 runs with their pitching and you have a good one. At 750 runs, they are mediocre, and at 700 runs, they are almost certainly sub-.500.
Yes, the Giants will free up a lot of money to replace Barry's bat, likely at the end of the 2007 season. But once Barry leaves, they will likely be at least two and probably three very good bats away from being a good offensive team. And they have few prospects to trade to acquire those bats.
And that, unfortunately, is the state of the Sabean -- just four years after he came so close to winning a World Championship. It's been almost all downhill since.
I don't think my late father would be as proud of Brian as he had hoped to be. I know I'm not.
Re: To Sabean Critics
On the other hand, he has had 10 years and the system has produced 2 every day position players that I can think of. (Bill Mueller and Pedro Feliz). I think the current crop of guys in the minors should produce a few and the purse strings have loosened up for the draft and international scouting (you can't blame Sabean for that. He's done well considering the one hand tied behind his back.)
The one thing I'd really criticize him for is not having a back up plan for the decline of Bonds, which was inevitable (cough, Vlad, cough). Other than that, he's done a pretty good job considering the resources of the team.
by nostocksjustbonds on Feb 22, 2007 8:57 PM PST reply actions
Re: To Sabean Critics
I agree that the Giants minor league system is in better shape than when Brian Sabean took over, but that is damning with faint praise.
Bill Mueller and Pedro Feliz are indeed the only two position players of any note who have come up with the Giants during Sabean's tenure as general manager, and neither player was drafted by Brian.
Re: To Sabean Critics
But it should not be too surprising. For years, the stated strategy was to draft pitching and trade or sign veteran position players.
by nostocksjustbonds on Feb 23, 2007 10:31 AM PST up reply actions
Re: To Sabean Critics
Passing on a 1st round pick and top international amateurs so the team can add a couple bench-quality players is asinine no matter how you slice it, particularly since said bench players haven't been the difference in making the playoffs. The team has failed utterly at drafting position players, and hasn't done well enough with pitching to make for that deficiency. So, yes the piece does provide "perspective": that Sabean's strategy since 2002 looks just as dumb in hindsight as it appeared at the time.
Re: To Sabean Critics
That was Grant Brisbee on October 30, 2006. Well said, sir, well said.
by Lyle @ McCovey Chronicles on Feb 23, 2007 6:53 AM PST reply actions
Re: To Sabean Critics
by PacBellBoozer on Feb 24, 2007 1:28 AM PST up reply actions
The farm system is in shambles
(I'm a team player.)
Re: To Sabean Critics
He certainly doesn't spend money very effeciently (over pays vets, etc.), he has made some brilliant trades and some awful trades.
At least he seems to have a plan and follows through - even if it's not the plan most stat heads would go for. Clearly, the farm system was designed to produce numerous pitching prospects which could then be shipped for veteran talent. This approach has it's pluses and minuses, but whatever it is, it's not cheap.
I always wonder what you would get if you took the Giants marginal win/$ and replaced Barry Bonds with the 2nd or 3rd best player of the 90s. I think Sabean would grade out pretty average.
Yeah, he'd grade out pretty average.
Re: To Sabean Critics
Giants W - 889 L - 729 .549
Dodgers W - 849 L - 771 .524
D'backs* W - 728 L - 731 .499
Padres W - 790 L - 830 .469
Rockies W - 745 L - 875 .460
* the Diamondbacks have only been in existence for nine of Sabean's ten years.
and just for fun:
A's W - 890 L - 729 .550 (the A's have played one more game than the Giants over the ten year period and have otherwise a identical recored.)
Not too bad.
Re: To Sabean Critics
As I said above, I blame Sabean for not having a suitable replacement sooner.
by nostocksjustbonds on Feb 23, 2007 10:35 AM PST up reply actions
Bonds must retire before we know who Sabean is
After his superstar is on the roster, Sabean has shown he merely is required to be an adequate GM to field a better than average team.
Also, on a Return On Equity (ROE) basis, Billy Beane laps this field because of a top tier record attained at a far lesser cost.
Re: Bonds must retire before we know who Sabean is
What's the matter with Brian? He's all right
But about Dusty's move -- Check the horrendous start Ortiz logged in Game 2...Russ was mercilessly shelled the previous week in Anaheim.
Dusty was not wrong to think the other shoe could drop at any moment with Ortiz.
But irony intervened -- the further unknowable element was that the previously solid bullpen was about to implode To A Man over the next couple innings.
SOB. (That's both a curse and a cry.)
Re: What's the matter with Brian? He's all right
An angry tear just fell from my eye.
I agree with you about Dusty's move, but I was just trying to say that is the GMs job to build the team to win; it is the team's, players and managers, job to do the actual winning. The Giants had at least two teams (2000 and 2002) that were capable of winning it all. I would say the 2003 team probably should also be put in that category, but that is a debatable topic. The fact the teams couldn't get through to the ring, says more about the vagaries of chance than it does about Sabean.
Re: Bonds must retire before we know who Sabean is
Bonds, back-of-the-envelope here is probably worth +10 wins/season over the last 10 years. Take off 100 wins for 10 years, and where do they rank?
Of course, they also get ca $15M/year to play with, how many wins do think he gets back?
Re: Bonds must retire before we know who Sabean is
Yeah.... your point is? What team doesn't have its share of below average players? The point is to have enough of the above average ones to make a difference. Did Sabean go out and get these above average type players to give the Giants the chance to win? With a vengeance. As a result, the Giants have one of the better records in baseball over Sabean's tenure. The idea, that you seem to be promoting, that because of Bonds the Giants management didn't have to do anything (and by implication didn't do anything) to build winning teams is just plain wrong. Who traded for or signed Burks, Nen, Kent, Schmidt, Alou, and Vizquel? Those are all-star talented players, none of which are named Barry Bonds. In addition, the management seemed to get some value from guys like Santiago, Snow, Rueter, Durham, Aurelia, Worrell, etc., etc. that helped push them into the playoffs and consistently remain in competition. The Marvin Bernards of the world are not the sum total, or even close to the majority, of the Giants players after naming Bonds.
Re: Bonds must retire before we know who Sabean is
And no, the good don't outweigh the bad, at least not by much.
What about...
Morris
Damian Moss
AJ
Neifi
Finley
Edguardo Alfonzo
Niekro
Ricky Ledee
Jose Cruz Jr
PEDRO FELIZ
Shawon Duston, any number of wretched bench players
Matheny
Snow (never a good player, sometimes adequate)
Randy Winn
Shinjo!
Grissom
Numerous relievers
Benitez!
Finley
Some of those players weren't useless, and some were worse than could be expected (I actually put Edguardo Alfonzo in this category), but aren't none of the good or even above average (with the occasionaly exception year or 1/2 year - see Randy Winn 2005)
If you think Sabean is some kind of genious GM - try this: Start with 90M or something. Pick random players and their actual salaries out of a hat. Keep picking until you get an actual 25-man roster (i.e. 8 position players, 5 starters, 7 relivers, 5 bench) and you use your money up.
Is this team better than the average giants team was w/out bonds?? It's probably about the same.
I never said the management did "do anything" - I just said they didn't do anything SPECIAL.
Re: Bonds must retire before we know who Sabean is
Re: Bonds must retire before we know who Sabean is
by PacBellBoozer on Feb 24, 2007 1:30 AM PST up reply actions
Re: To Sabean Critics
And we shouldn't forget that Brian Sabean inherited Barry. That's not to say that Brian didn't make some very good deals, however. His trades for Ellis Burks and Jason Schmidt were true coups.
However, Do Not Forget
(Filled with chicken poop.)
Re: However, Do Not Forget
Brian seemed a genius over his first six years. In the four years since, he has seemed far more human and in fact below average.
Re: However, Do Not Forget
Re: However, Do Not Forget
Livan Hernandez was far more than an innings eater from 2003 through 2005. Yet, he did pitch more innings than any other National League starter. But he also pitched them BETTER than all but a handful of NL starters. His 3.20, 3.60 and 3.98 ERA's during those three seasons were better overall than the $126-million man. He also was one of the few pitchers to pitch more innings during that period than Barry Zito did.
In 2003 Livan posted a 3.20 ERA, and Russ won 20 games. Jeff Kent continued on his drive for the Hall of Fame, and Bill Mueller led the American League in batting. The Giants came oh, so close in 2002 -- but then let an inordinate amount of talent slip through their hands. Even though they won 100 games in 2003, they were eliminated in the first round of the playoffs. If the end hadn't begun, it had begun to begin. Let's begin the Beguine. :)
Livan
Kent
When the historians look at the decline and fall of the Bonds-era Giants, the loss of Kent will be seen as a major misstep.
Re: To Sabean Critics
And now what if Villalona comes around and performs even half as well as his projected ceiling, with Matt Cain and Time LIN-sih-Cum in the mix. Will we start to say "Well, Sabean should have been fired, but he rode the success of that Villalona kid and some sharp pitching."
I'm just trying to see where we draw the line.
Sabean made the move to get Bonds, and then he based his other moves around it. Now with Bonds headingout we actually have some seriously exciting players ready (or almost) to take over.
I'll say that there are two strong knocks on Sabean: 1) that he never built a great team around Bonds, and always simply straddled competitive and 2) that he didn't have an immediate contingency for the end of the Bonds Era.
But still, we've regularly straddled the playoffs during his time, and very nearly won a World Series - which for the Giants even getting to one has been near impossible for, like, 50 years.
So how much is that Bonds? How much is that Sabean? And what I'm really trying to get at... how much is that some combination of the two? I mean, we can't have one without the other (historically speaking).
It just seems backward to me to credit Bonds with all of the success and to conveniently ignore the guy who signed him.
Re: To Sabean Critics
Sabean does deserve credit for RE-signing Bonds, which can sort of be attributed to his one great Moneyballish insight: that old players had become undervalued. But there too, Magowan was probably the prime mover.
Re: To Sabean Critics
Re: To Sabean Critics
But, you saved me some valuable fact-checking time.
Anything pre-1998 I'm pretty liable to get wrong, just because that was the year that my interest kicked in. I'm kind of just used to thinking that Sabean has done everything because I wasn't paying attention when he wasn't here.
Big Whoopsie on my part. Shouldn't post so readily in the mornings.
by howtheyscored on Feb 23, 2007 11:31 AM PST up reply actions
Re: To Sabean Critics
He will deserve much more credit for the success of Tim Lincecum and Angel Villalona because he signed them initially and is developing them.
Even if Brian is fired at the end of the season, he would seem to me to deserve more credit for Tim and Angel than for Barry.
Re: To Sabean Critics
But I wonder, is it reaaly fair or accurate to say Sabean didn't/dosen't have a plan for post-Bonds? As one of the posters observed, Sabean consistently puts competitive teams on the field. '07 sure l;ooks like another competitive team(knock on wood). And '08 and '09. I mean, it's easy to look at what we don't have. But it is important to look at what we do have. Pitching. Damn good pitching. And some players who are above average hitters: Molina, Roberts, Duham, Omar; Some potential above average hitters: Aurelia, Klesko, Winn; some guys given an opportunity to break into the line-up as above average hitters: Linden, Frandsen.
With Bonds still here, it is hard to say there is no replacement. It appears he tried this offseason. We do not know who will be signed for next year. It may even be Bonds. I don't think it is a legitimate criticism that he hasn't gotten Bonds' replacement. We don't actually know when that will be required OR how it will be handled.
Re: To Sabean Critics
Re: To Sabean Critics
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It make no sense that Sabean hasn't acquired any young up-and-comers over the past two seasons. Anyone else in his shoes would have been furiously wheeling and dealing to get talent in place that would be hitting its stride in the year or two after Bonds retires. This has not occured, to the shock of almost everyone watching.
The situation instead is that the Giants need massive fixes on the offense and have nobody to trade to get it. They have no farm system producing starting talent. They will thus need to be overly reliant on the free agent market.
The biggest irony is that the best players have been the oldest. Vizquel has been good yet it's incredibly unwise to invest in him for two more years. The best free agent next season out there will be Alex Rodriguez. The Giants can make a run to sign him. Will they choose not to so as to keep a 41 year old Vizquel for another year or two? What happens after that?
If they choose not to spend big on the big name Rodriguez will they instead use that money to fill out two or three positions with talented players? Show me names, because I don't see them.
Sabean is an uninspiring GM. The worst part is that the team across the Bay has half the money and tons of injury problems yet manages to put 5 all-star caliber offensive players on the field every year.
by lastexit on Feb 23, 2007 12:26 PM PST reply actions
Re: To Sabean Critics
Re: To Sabean Critics
I kept hearing the same thing after the Mulder and Hudson trades. In the two years since then, the A's have averaged 90.5 wins. How many more years is it going to take before you admit that Beane might know what he's doing?
I know, I know, you're reacting against all the annoying Moneyball fanboy hype over Billy Beane. But really now, there can't be any doubt that he's among the very best GMs in the game. And I'm sorry to say that he's clearly better than our guy.
Re: To Sabean Critics
Re: To Sabean Critics
Re: To Sabean Critics
by Punch Rockgroin on Feb 23, 2007 4:05 PM PST up reply actions
Re: To Sabean Critics
2007 Is a transition year where we have added better then average position player holders (Molina, Aurilia, Klesko, and Roberts) while we focus on allowing the new "centerpiece" of our franchise (young stud rotation) to continue to improve and mature. In addition, inspite of being a "transition year", we still have a real shot at the playoffs in 2007.
In 2008 you should see the depature of Barry Bonds, Matt Morris (Trade), Armando Benitez, Pedro Feliz, Omar Vizquel, and Ryan Klesko. This will free up $40M to spend on new position players that should be younger, healthier, and overall better then those they replace. In fact, $40M is enough to sign both A-Rod and Andrew Jones if they both decide to be Free Agents. I think we all would be very happy with the following 2008 lineup:
LF Dave Roberts
RF Randy Winn
SS Alez Rodriguez
CF Andrew Jones
2B Ray Durham
1B Rich Aurilia
C Bengie Molina
3B Kevin Frandsen
The future is bright and so many of you are just blinded by your hatred of Sabean that you can see it.
by giantsrainman on Feb 23, 2007 4:58 PM PST up reply actions
the future is bright!
of course, there is like a 1% chance two of the top 20 players in ALL of baseball won't BOTH choose to sign with the giants, right? i mean, the other 29 teams may also have some money to spend, right?
how many free agent hitters did sabean go after this year (before ending up with bonds and zito), and how many of them ended up signing with teams other than the giants?
Re: the future is bright!
Re: the future is bright!
by giantsrainman on Feb 24, 2007 9:32 AM PST up reply actions
Re: To Sabean Critics
First, the supply is dwindling, as teams are beginning to realize that it is often more difficult and expensive to replace their good players than to pay to keep them.
Second, the price is rising -- rapidly. This is the law of supply and demand.
Third, the top free agents are pursued by many teams, meaning that aside from Boston and the Yankees, a single team's chances of signing free agents isn't great. True, adding Alex Rodriguez and Andruw Jones would make the Giants a somewhat formidable team in 2008, but there is no guarantee of signing either one -- let alone both.
And even if they were able to do so, the lineup you posited leaves the Giants significantly above-average at only Rodriquez's and Jones' positions, and probably Durham's. They still wouldn't appear likely to equal the 850 runs they scored as recently as 2004.
Re: To Sabean Critics
Re: To Sabean Critics
I am a Giant fan. I would not mind if the Giants used the Beane strategy or the Sabean strategy. Just so long as we are consistently a contender and get to the post season every few years. To expect more, I think, is unrealistic. But, once the Giants hire a GM I am going to try to understand his strategy and try to see if it is working. My objection is that a lot of critics criticize in a vacuum without understanding what Sabean is trying to do. Michael Tucker is only one example. People say Sabes was "stupid" for signing him just before the deadline and losing a pick. Sabes did that precisely to save the money from the # 1 pick so he could spend it on the major league club. People may not agree, but it was not stupid, it was actually rather clever and designed to improve the team for that year. Did the team suffer into the future? I don't think so. Has the team changed that strategy? I think so. This year, alone, we have what, 8 picks in the first 3 rounds? People just get angry and don't analyze. They want to criticize moves from 3, 4 years ago without understanding the underlying strategy. And they don't want to look for a changing, emphasis on the minors, strategy, because they already have decided anything Sabean does is wrong. I can't imagine that is fun.
Re: To Sabean Critics
One problem is that young players are generally better at the end of their contracts than old players and thus don't need to replaced en masse as was the case with the Giants plethora of aging free agents this off-season.
Re: To Sabean Critics
Re: To Sabean Critics
That's pretty much it.
Re: To Sabean Critics
Let's imagine the Giants of the future having to pay Tim Lincecum, Angel Villalona and Matt Cain after all three players have reached free agency eligibility. It's going to be darn tough to keep that trio together. The only hope would seem to be to surround them with lots of productive players who HAVEN'T reached free-agency eligibility.
The Marlins were a huge surprise last season, weren't they? Do you think their having one of baseball's players, Miguel Cabrera, under contract for less than a half million dollars had anything to do with that?
Fortunately for the Giants, Cain, Lincecum and Villalona WILL likely be those great young and inexpensive players on a declining basis over the next few years.
The Giants have had some success with finding the sweet salary spot among older players. But finding values among older players is band-aiding. Finding values among younger players is building.
Re: To Sabean Critics
Re: To Sabean Critics
Just because the Giants were competing for the playoffs doesn't mean they shouldn't have been drafting well and showing more interest in international talent. The money they saved by not doing so was almost negligible in comparison to the total payroll, but the impact on current and future rosters is/will be devastating.
Re: To Sabean Critics
Problem is I don't believe this basic assumption. Baseball teams are making money hand over fist. Teams are valued at astronomical dollars. There is stability in the collective bargaining agreement, and the idiots who call themselves owners have never been in a better position. So why should I accept the cries of poverty when it comes to paying players? Teams set budgets and then go over those budgets every year, which only further proves the point that the money to spend is there - it is only a question of how much winds up in a players pocket and how much goes into the owner's. The Yankees and the Red Sox MAY well be among the fattest of the fat cats, but none of them are ready to file bankruptcy.
Re: To Sabean Critics
As the salaries for players eligible for free agency is exploding, teams without huge budgets such as the Yankees and Red Sox (and even the Yankees aren't spending quite as wildly as in the recent past)must receive production from artificially underpaid young players whose salaries are held down by their not being able for free agency and thus not able to sell their wares to the highest bidder.
The Giants approach was to find value in older players. To a certain extent it worked. But there are two problems with that approach. First, the veterans are more expensive than players in their first three or four years. Second, while the young players are approaching their primes and may contribute more in the future, the aging players' contributions likely will diminish over time.
Finding value in young players builds a team. Finding value in older players merely provides bandaids, even if on occasion they are strong bandaids.
In part because the Giants and some other teams DID find some value in older players, in part because players just seem to keep lasting longer and longer, in part because the market for free agents has exploded as the supply has diminished and the demand remained pretty much the same, older players are no longer the bargains they once were. That makes the younger players even BIGGER bargains.
Yet the youngest everyday starter for the Giants turns 32 in April. And the Giants have no everyday players coming up who are both older than 16 and likely to become impact players.
Re: To Sabean Critics
You make a very good point that the A's will have their hands full being competitive this season, although I would attribute that at least as much to the absence of Thomas as to the loss of Barry Zito. Still, I think the A's are still stronger than the Giants at this time. And, yes, that damning them with somewhat faint praise.
As for Billy Beane, perhaps only the Twins GM has gotten as much out of his money as has Billy. The A's somehow remained very good even after losing Jason Giambi, Miguel Tejada, Tim Hudson and Mark Mulder. If they can pull off doing so afer adding Thomas and Zito to their loss list, I think Beane may be worthy of magician status.
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As Draper goes this one's worth reading.
by orangeandblackattack on Feb 23, 2007 6:32 PM PST reply actions
Re: To Sabean Critics
The guy is an idiot. He's also a certified journalistic mouthpiece, not a kind of, as you would suggest.
by PacBellBoozer on Feb 24, 2007 1:32 AM PST up reply actions
Re: To Sabean Critics
Re: To Sabean Critics
Just because I'm calling the guy a hack doesn't mean that I'm saying I'd be any better. If that was the case, the Giants should sign me as their new closer because I've had more than a few things to say about 'Mando.
by PacBellBoozer on Feb 24, 2007 2:35 PM PST up reply actions
Re: To Sabean Critics
by E Ticket on Feb 24, 2007 3:01 PM PST up reply actions
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by PacBellBoozer on Feb 24, 2007 3:06 PM PST up reply actions
TO: Boozer's Critics
Before you throw another stone, let's see if you can't start a thermonuclear war any faster, bub!
Re: TO: Boozer's Critics
by PacBellBoozer on Feb 24, 2007 7:51 PM PST up reply actions
Re: To Sabean Critics
Peter sticks with Brian
Sabean will not be fired until he suffers sustained losing, and only under the condition that Barry has retired or been sent packing to another team.
Sabean must be allowed a couple of attempts at constructing a team without the possibility of a Bonds hanging around to improve it.
He fails that, and he's gone.
But let's raise another possibility:
Sabean -- soon a free agent, let us not forget -- is hired away from the Giants in autumn of 2007.
Replace Sabean with who?
For over a year Magowan and Sabaen knew they were going to get rid of Alou. And the best they could do was the Human Bobblehead? Not that he isn't a vast improvement. But you have one of the top 3 or 4 franchises in MLB, in terms of prestige, location, ownership integrity and the best we can do is Bruce? Where's the ingenuity and creativity and excitement from the early days of Magowan's stewardship?
Its the difference between running away from something and pursuing something. Like people who quit their job at a Taco Bell drive up window to take a job cleaning the shitters at Jack In the Box. Yeah, you don't have to wear a googy headset all night but at what price.
Look at the San Diego Chargers. I've never thought of Schotenheimer as a good post-season coach. But the timing of his release was horrible and they ended up with Norvell Milquetoast, who has had absolutely zero success in previous stints as a head coach. All because the GM and Marty don't like each other. They let personalities instead of coaching and personnel principles determine the future of the most talented roster in the NFL.
Prediction: Chargers barely finish above .500 as the team becomes more interested in "Ugly Betty" reurns by the 9th week of the season. Jerry Rice referred to Turner as incompetent with no leadership skills as a head coach when he played under Milquetoast in Oakland.
I would think Magowan would learn his lesson from his kneejerk reaction to the 2002 World Series by firing Baker, who had leadership skills and prior success, with Alou, who had no leadership skills and no prior managerial success. Which Alou continued to build upon in his four years of Rip Van Winkle impersonations as the Giants manager.
I'll take the 10 years of Baker against the 4 years of Alou anyday--1996 notwithstanding.
Well, having vented all of that, the end result is simply this. If the Giants play well and win, everything negativer goes away. The bitching about the farm system, Sabaen, the manager, Magowan, roster, Morris, Fleas, old age. Gone. Just win baby. (ducks)
by E Ticket on Feb 24, 2007 10:48 AM PST reply actions
Re: Replace Sabean with who?
If Magowan is a quiet meddler, as it becoming more clear by the day, then he should be patient with the people who work for him. If he's really a stealthy Steinbrenner, then let's hope he looks in the mirror before he pulls the plug on any more managers or on Sabean.
I can totally see making a change if Sabean is burnt out and worn out by the job. I don't know if that's the case. If it is, Magowan's interference is probably a major part of it. If it is, I can see bringing someone in who has more energy. But let's be realistic -- whoever replaces Sabean is going to get the same instructions that Sabean has had. Win every year. Short term solutions over long term ones. Will the new guy be any better at operating under those rules than Sabean? Will he keep Tidrow around to ID good pitching in the draft? Who knows?
Be careful what you ask for, guys.
Can't keep my eye on the ball
The descriptions of the jobs at Taco Bell and Jack in the Box included graphic insider details and went beyond mere observation. In other words, it sounds like a true life experience.
And I am shocked, shocked at that kind of background in my Giant Pundits.
(It's so deliciously low. -Henry Higgins)

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