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To Sabean Critics

I have argued until I am blue in the face (and will audition for 'Blue Man Group' this weekend at the Venetian) with those whose knee jerk reaction to anything Sabean, is to criticize.   I particularly oppose the sort of criticism that goes "the farm system is in shambles, therefore Sabean is an idiot."  These - and much of - the criticsm jsut ignores the reason for the move or decision by Sabean.  Sure, every move can be criticized, I just think it is uninformed and not very helpful to criticize without understanding the greater plan/picture.  Now, thanks to Orange and Black, we are directed to a site that explains the stragtegy of the recent past, particularly as it relates to decisions that had to be made due to the team building its own ball park (the appreciation of which never occurs to the Sabean critics).  So, I direct you to the text of the following article which gives some perspective and explanation (as well as describes the recent change in strategy and the progress being made - and made quickly to replenish the farm system) of the strategy and changing strategy of the past 5-6 years.

 http://www.baseballamerica.com/today/prospects/features/263377.html

If this link doesn't work, check outn Orange and Black's diary regarding BAs top 10 prospects.  And thank you Orange and Black.

This FanPost is reader-generated, and it does not necessarily reflect the views of McCovey Chronicles. If the author uses filler to achieve the minimum word requirement, a moderator may edit the FanPost for his or her own amusement.

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Re: To Sabean Critics
I've been a quite, though consistent, Sabean booster here. I think he's made plenty of mistakes, particularly the last 5 years, but I still think he's one of the better GMs in the league and that not many guys give us a better chance of competing year in and year out.
Coming to you by proxy

by howtheyscored on Feb 22, 2007 8:29 PM PST reply actions  

Re: To Sabean Critics
He's probably an average GM, all told. Unfortunately for him, "average" is a pejorative term in the realm of pro sports.

It's also difficult to consider him even average if you give more weight to recent performance.

by Bhaakon on Feb 22, 2007 10:15 PM PST up reply actions  

Re: To Sabean Critics
He's an average GM who's stock has been elevated by one of the greatest players of all time having some of the greatest offensive years of all time.

Doesn't mean he shouldn't be the GM of the Giants, it just means the jury is still out until the post-Bonds era.

by otis29 on Feb 23, 2007 7:18 AM PST up reply actions  

Re: To Sabean Critics
I want to frame the following remarks by first saying that I wasn't at all worried when Brian Sabean traded away Matt Williams, since I knew my late father was greatly looking forward to Brian's becoming the Giants GM, even though he passed away during the season that preceded its actually happening.  He did at least pass away with the knowledge that Brian would become the GM at the end of the 1996 season.  

As recently as the end of the 2002 season I was willing to make an argument for Brian's being one of if not the best general managers in the big leagues.  Now for this year's state of the Sabean:

Brian Sabean's strategy as general manager of the Giants reminds me of those who live on their entire salary and figure they will take care of retirement when it comes around.  Brian has mortgaged the Giants future both by trading prospects to fill present holes and ultimately by giving up draft picks in order to sign mediocre free agents.

Over at El Lefty Malo, Lefty used the prospect ratings of Kevin Goldstein of BP to show that the Giants prospects were the 24th-best in the majors.  And that included the potentially-awesome Tim Lincecum and Angel Villalona as well as the highly intriguing Jonathan Sanchez.  Unfortunately, beyond that trio, the cupboard is bare -- especially with regard to prospects who are likely to have an impact over the remainder of this decade.

Brian has stated that the playoffs are a crapshoot, so his goal has been to put together a Giants team good enough to make the playoffs.  In four of his ten seasons to date, he has been successful in that regard.

Yet Brian has constructed few if any great teams, winding up primarily with teams that were on the cusp of the playoffs, one way or the other.  Four years they made the postseason.  Four years they didn't.  Then the past two seasons, as the strategy of finding value in older players has begun to play itself out, the Giants have become a sub-.500 team.

As we look at 2007, the Giants are once again loaded with older players who are mostly average-to-good, but with little greatness.  Thanks primarily to drafting Matt Cain and Tim Lincecum with their first-round draft choices in 2002 and 2006, the Giants are building some good, young pitching.  But after April, the Giants will have no one among their starting eight who is younger than 32.  Omar Vizquel will hit 40 in April; Bonds, 43 in July.  Aside from Bonds, none of their everyday players is likely to be an all-star without having a near-career season.

The Giants pitching in 2007 should be improved.  But their biggest problem the past two seasons hasn't been pitching as much as their having averaged fewer than 700 runs per year.  The Giants offensive woes began when Bonds missed almost the entire 2005 season.  But they didn't disappear with a healthy Bonds in 2006, and they likely haven't disappeared in 2007.  They no longer have Moises Alou, their second-best hitter the past two seasons, nor have they adequately replaced him (DAVE ROBERTS???).  

A wonderful renaissance by Ray Durham after returning from the disabled list in 2006 helped save the Giants from complete embarassment at the plate, but is it realistic for the aging Durham to come close to repeating his career year?  

Unless they are able to pull off the miracle of either somehow trading for much-needed power or having Barry Bonds remain healthy and returning to his 2001-2004 form, the Giants just aren't going to score enough runs to be an excellent team.  They may well have difficulty being a good one.

With a starting lineup with no one younger than the stated 32 and no particularly intriguing players above Class A in the minors, the Giants hitting may not revive until the arrival of Angel Villalona.  Angel is only 16 years of age, so how likely is he to be a big factor before the end of the decade?

Yes, the Giants pitching appears on the verge of being postseason material.  But since it is run differential that leads to the wins that put a team into a high postseason seed, the Giants will need good hitting, as well.  Just where is that going to come from?  

Without Barry Bonds, the Giants would likely struggle to score 700 runs.  As recently as 2004 they scored 850, but barring a miracle they won't approach that figure in 2007.  Put 850 runs with the Giants pitching, and you have a very good team.  Put 800 runs with their pitching and you have a good one.  At 750 runs, they are mediocre, and at 700 runs, they are almost certainly sub-.500.

Yes, the Giants will free up a lot of money to replace Barry's bat, likely at the end of the 2007 season.  But once Barry leaves, they will likely be at least two and probably three very good bats away from being a good offensive team.  And they have few prospects to trade to acquire those bats.

And that, unfortunately, is the state of the Sabean -- just four years after he came so close to winning a World Championship.  It's been almost all downhill since.

I don't think my late father would be as proud of Brian as he had hoped to be.  I know I'm not.

by sharksrog on Feb 22, 2007 8:51 PM PST reply actions  

Re: To Sabean Critics
In evaluating Sabean's tenure as GM, it's important realize the sorry state of the system that existed at the time he had arrived. According to BA, in 1997 our top prospect was Joe Fontenot (yeah, I know, who?) Joe Fontenot, a product of the previous regime, pitched in only a handful of games in the majors...for the Marlins. He played the for the Marlins because Sabean traded him there, with some other minor leaguers, for Robb Nen. The system is in better shape now than it was then.

On the other hand, he has had 10 years and the system has produced 2 every day position players that I can think of. (Bill Mueller and Pedro Feliz). I think the current crop of guys in the minors should produce a few and the purse strings have loosened up for the draft and international scouting (you can't blame Sabean for that. He's done well considering the one hand tied behind his back.)

The one thing I'd really criticize him for is not having a back up plan for the decline of Bonds, which was inevitable (cough, Vlad, cough). Other than that, he's done a pretty good job considering the resources of the team.

We'd be pretty good if we didn't suck so bad.

by nostocksjustbonds on Feb 22, 2007 8:57 PM PST reply actions  

Re: To Sabean Critics
Joe Fontenot was the 16th pick of the 1995 draft and was actually considered to be a pretty good prospects at one time.

I agree that the Giants minor league system is in better shape than when Brian Sabean took over, but that is damning with faint praise.

Bill Mueller and Pedro Feliz are indeed the only two position players of any note who have come up with the Giants during Sabean's tenure as general manager, and neither player was drafted by Brian.

by sharksrog on Feb 23, 2007 12:07 AM PST up reply actions  

Re: To Sabean Critics
Exactly. It's not just the drafting and signing of position players, but the development of position players.

But it should not be too surprising. For years, the stated strategy was to draft pitching and trade or sign veteran position players.

We'd be pretty good if we didn't suck so bad.

by nostocksjustbonds on Feb 23, 2007 10:31 AM PST up reply actions  

Re: To Sabean Critics
"The signings were an about-face for an organization that had intentionally sacrificed draft picks and diverted bonus money to the major league payroll in previous years."

Passing on a 1st round pick and top international amateurs so the team can add a couple bench-quality players is asinine no matter how you slice it, particularly since said bench players haven't been the difference in making the playoffs. The team has failed utterly at drafting position players, and hasn't done well enough with pitching to make for that deficiency. So, yes the piece does provide "perspective": that Sabean's strategy since 2002 looks just as dumb in hindsight as it appeared at the time.

by Bhaakon on Feb 22, 2007 8:57 PM PST reply actions  

Re: To Sabean Critics
I'm pretty much with sharksrog.  A very wise man once said:
For the past ten years, the powers that be have been running around with duct tape and a plunger, trying to get one last flush from their commode without paying for a plumber. It almost worked, but now we're all about to be ankle-deep in some pretty foul stuff. Not only have the Giants refused to look at premium free agents, but they've been incompetent in developing anything more than utility players for the lineup. Even if the Giants wanted to rebuild, they don't have to talent to do it.

That was Grant Brisbee on October 30, 2006. Well said, sir, well said.

Avoid the rush later - join the Waiting for Josh Vitters bandwagon now!

by Lyle @ McCovey Chronicles on Feb 23, 2007 6:53 AM PST reply actions  

Re: To Sabean Critics
Your nose is turning a bit brown.  
Hats for bats, keep bats warm !

by PacBellBoozer on Feb 24, 2007 1:28 AM PST up reply actions  

The farm system is in shambles
Therefore, Sabean is a genius.

(I'm a team player.)

by Moggeee on Feb 23, 2007 9:05 AM PST reply actions  

Re: To Sabean Critics
The only reason (albeit a good one) to give any credit to Sabean is that the Giants have been pretty decent over his tenure.  However, they also had the best player ever.

He certainly doesn't spend money very effeciently (over pays vets, etc.), he has made some brilliant trades and some awful trades.  

At least he seems to have a plan and follows through - even if it's not the plan most stat heads would go for.   Clearly, the farm system was designed to produce numerous pitching prospects which could then be shipped for veteran talent.  This approach has it's pluses and minuses, but whatever it is, it's not cheap.

I always wonder what you would get if you took the Giants marginal win/$ and replaced Barry Bonds with the 2nd or 3rd best player of the 90s.  I think Sabean would grade out pretty average.

by zenbitz on Feb 23, 2007 9:53 AM PST reply actions  

Yeah, he'd grade out pretty average.
And as a reward, Magowan would currently have him GMing the Fresno Grizzlies.

by Moggeee on Feb 23, 2007 10:18 AM PST up reply actions  

Re: To Sabean Critics
During Sabean's 10 year tenure (if I can still add properly):

Giants W - 889 L - 729 .549
Dodgers W - 849 L - 771 .524
D'backs* W - 728 L - 731 .499
Padres W - 790 L - 830 .469
Rockies W - 745 L - 875 .460

* the Diamondbacks have only been in existence for nine of Sabean's ten years.

and just for fun:

A's W - 890 L - 729 .550 (the A's have played one more game than the Giants over the ten year period and have otherwise a identical recored.)

Not too bad.

yob

by Sayhey on Feb 23, 2007 10:25 AM PST reply actions  

Re: To Sabean Critics
Frankly, it shouldn't be too surprising that the last 2 losing years have coincided with less than Bondsian production from Bonds. It's not a coincidence.

As I said above, I blame Sabean for not having a suitable replacement sooner.

We'd be pretty good if we didn't suck so bad.

by nostocksjustbonds on Feb 23, 2007 10:35 AM PST up reply actions  

Bonds must retire before we know who Sabean is
That edge in winning percentage can be in great part credited to Bonds, in my opinion. But we can give Sabean secondary credit for keeping and appeasing His Barryness.

After his superstar is on the roster, Sabean has shown he merely is required to be an adequate GM to field a better than average team.

Also, on a Return On Equity (ROE) basis, Billy Beane laps this field because of a top tier record attained at a far lesser cost.

by Moggeee on Feb 23, 2007 10:41 AM PST up reply actions  

Re: Bonds must retire before we know who Sabean is
To be fair, some of the other (non - BLB) players who have played for the Giants in the last ten years have been more than above average. Some of them (Kent, Schmidt, Burks, etc.) have been FAR above average. As a GM, his responsibility is to put together a winning team, and he has done that, and done it better than most GMs in the game. Really, is it his fault Dusty pulled Russ out of the game too early?
yob

by Sayhey on Feb 23, 2007 10:51 AM PST up reply actions  

What's the matter with Brian? He's all right
Fair enough, SayHey.

But about Dusty's move -- Check the horrendous start Ortiz logged in Game 2...Russ was mercilessly shelled the previous week in Anaheim.

Dusty was not wrong to think the other shoe could drop at any moment with Ortiz.

But irony intervened -- the further unknowable element was that the previously solid bullpen was about to implode To A Man over the next couple innings.

SOB. (That's both a curse and a cry.)

by Moggeee on Feb 23, 2007 11:10 AM PST up reply actions  

Re: What's the matter with Brian? He's all right
"SOB. (That's both a curse and a cry.)"

An angry tear just fell from my eye.

I agree with you about Dusty's move, but I was just trying to say that is the GMs job to build the team to win; it is the team's, players and managers, job to do the actual winning. The Giants had at least two teams (2000 and 2002) that were capable of winning it all. I would say the 2003 team probably should also be put in that category, but that is a debatable topic. The fact the teams couldn't get through to the ring, says more about the vagaries of chance than it does about Sabean.

yob

by Sayhey on Feb 23, 2007 11:34 AM PST up reply actions  

Re: Bonds must retire before we know who Sabean is
Yeah, and there have been many that were BELOW average.  I won't even start namin' nuts.

Bonds, back-of-the-envelope here is probably worth +10 wins/season over the last 10 years.  Take off 100 wins for 10 years, and where do they rank?

Of course, they also get ca $15M/year to play with, how many wins do think he gets back?

by zenbitz on Feb 23, 2007 12:07 PM PST up reply actions  

Re: Bonds must retire before we know who Sabean is
"Yeah, and there have been many that were BELOW average."

Yeah.... your point is? What team doesn't have its share of below average players? The point is to have enough of the above average ones to make a difference. Did Sabean go out and get these above average type players to give the Giants the chance to win? With a vengeance. As a result, the Giants have one of the better records in baseball over Sabean's tenure. The idea, that you seem to be promoting, that because of Bonds the Giants management didn't have to do anything (and by implication didn't do anything) to build winning teams is just plain wrong. Who traded for or signed Burks, Nen, Kent, Schmidt, Alou, and Vizquel? Those are all-star talented players, none of which are named Barry Bonds. In addition, the management seemed to get some value from guys like Santiago, Snow, Rueter, Durham, Aurelia, Worrell, etc., etc. that helped push them into the playoffs and consistently remain in competition. The Marvin Bernards of the world are not the sum total, or even close to the majority, of the Giants players after naming Bonds.

yob

by Sayhey on Feb 23, 2007 2:08 PM PST up reply actions  

Re: Bonds must retire before we know who Sabean is
The point is that (outside of bonds) the giants have had many above average and below average players.  Enough to make them... an average team!    Sure Sabean and co. signed some good players... and some bad players!  

And no, the good don't outweigh the bad, at least not by much.  

What about...
Morris
Damian Moss
AJ
Neifi
Finley
Edguardo Alfonzo
Niekro
Ricky Ledee
Jose Cruz Jr
PEDRO FELIZ
Shawon Duston, any number of wretched bench players
Matheny
Snow (never a good player, sometimes adequate)
Randy Winn
Shinjo!
Grissom
Numerous relievers
Benitez!
Finley

Some of those players weren't useless, and some were worse than could be expected (I actually put Edguardo Alfonzo in this category), but aren't none of the good or even above average (with the occasionaly exception year or 1/2 year - see Randy Winn 2005)

If you think Sabean is some kind of genious GM - try this:  Start with 90M or something.  Pick random players and their actual salaries out of a hat.  Keep picking until you get an actual 25-man roster (i.e. 8 position players, 5 starters, 7 relivers, 5 bench) and you use your money up.

Is this team better than the average giants team was w/out bonds??  It's probably about the same.

I never said the management did "do anything" - I just said they didn't do anything SPECIAL.  

by zenbitz on Feb 23, 2007 3:45 PM PST up reply actions  

Re: Bonds must retire before we know who Sabean is
My point, zenbitz, is that you could do this same exercise with ANY team. Take out the stars and what you have left is a collection of players who fall right around average. Unless you have an expansion team in the first or, maybe, the second year of play, that is the nature of baseball teams. It is not an indictment of Sabean to point this out for the Giants. It would not be an indictment of ANY team's management to do this exercise. The only meaningful observation in this vein is that Bonds stands out above even the very, very good players that the Giants have had. Well, he also stands out above every damn player in baseball over the last 20 some years. So WHAT?
yob

by Sayhey on Feb 23, 2007 7:47 PM PST up reply actions  

Re: Bonds must retire before we know who Sabean is
You forgot about Sir Sidney Ponson.  
Hats for bats, keep bats warm !

by PacBellBoozer on Feb 24, 2007 1:30 AM PST up reply actions  

Re: To Sabean Critics
That's actually pretty darn good.  But take Barry Bonds away and replace his contract with what the average veteran or veterans bring for that same cost, and the Giants would likely be about a .500 team.

And we shouldn't forget that Brian Sabean inherited Barry.  That's not to say that Brian didn't make some very good deals, however.  His trades for Ellis Burks and Jason Schmidt were true coups.

by sharksrog on Feb 23, 2007 2:00 PM PST up reply actions  

However, Do Not Forget
Sabean's signings of A.J. and Edgardo also were true coops.

(Filled with chicken poop.)

by Moggeee on Feb 23, 2007 2:09 PM PST up reply actions  

Re: However, Do Not Forget
Yes, Brian's trade for A.J. Pierzynski and his siging of Edgardo Alfonzo were indeed poor moves.  His trading of Russ Ortiz and Livan Hernandez in order to pay for the signing of Edgardo wasn't great, either.  Nor was his signing of Ray Durham and Alfonzo when he could perhaps have re-signed Jeff Kent and Bill Mueller for less money, perhaps saving enough money to keep at least Russ OR Livan.

Brian seemed a genius over his first six years.  In the four years since, he has seemed far more human and in fact below average.

by sharksrog on Feb 23, 2007 4:46 PM PST up reply actions  

Re: However, Do Not Forget
Well, Ortiz only had one more good year, Hernandez was pretty much the definition of journeyman innings eater, emminently replaceable.  And, I guess you're saying keep Kent and wait for more fights in the dugout?  Kent had worn out his welcome.  Broken wristgate, his jealousy of Barry.  The only one remotely missed was Mueller.  Everyone on this board is criticizing him for not having more production at 3b, and you say he should have kept Mueller?  Granted Alfonzo quickly collapsed, but look at all the guys he traded that soon collapsed.  I would say he had 7 very good years. The last 2, obviously have been awful, but that is completely injury driven.

by allfrank on Feb 23, 2007 11:17 PM PST up reply actions  

Re: However, Do Not Forget
Russ Ortiz DID have only one more good season -- and now the Giants have him back for virtually nothing.  But had they been smart enough to keep him for his fine 2003 season, they wouldn't have had to trade for Sidney Ponson and might have returned to and actually won the World Series in 2003.  They won 100 games that season as it was.  Hopefully they would have been wise enough NOT to re-sign Russ after 2003 (although admittedly that would have been a difficult decision to make).

Livan Hernandez was far more than an innings eater from 2003 through 2005.  Yet, he did pitch more innings than any other National League starter.  But he also pitched them BETTER than all but a handful of NL starters. His 3.20, 3.60 and 3.98 ERA's during those three seasons were better overall than the $126-million man. He also was one of the few pitchers to pitch more innings during that period than Barry Zito did.

In 2003 Livan posted a 3.20 ERA, and Russ won 20 games.  Jeff Kent continued on his drive for the Hall of Fame, and Bill Mueller led the American League in batting.  The Giants came oh, so close in 2002 -- but then let an inordinate amount of talent slip through their hands.  Even though they won 100 games in 2003, they were eliminated in the first round of the playoffs.  If the end hadn't begun, it had begun to begin.  Let's begin the Beguine. :)

by sharksrog on Feb 24, 2007 12:44 PM PST up reply actions  

Livan
I'm glad to see someone recognize that Livan was pretty damned good after he joined the Expos.  Had he remained with the Giants, I doubt he would have figured out the problem with his delivery.  He simply wasn't open to Righetti's coaching, or perhaps Righetti didn't know how to get through to Livan.  Either way, Livan really did need a change of scenery.  Getting rid of him was the only thing that made sense then, or now.

by Skaldheim on Feb 24, 2007 3:33 PM PST up reply actions  

Kent
Almost forgot to talk about Jeff Kent.  I have completely changed my mind on the dude.  In 2002, it seemed inevitable and proper that the Giants part ways with him.  In hindsight, what the hell were we all thinking?  The Giants should have bent over backwards to keep the guy.  Nothing against Durham, but Kent is a Hall of Famer in my book.  So what if he and Barry didn't get along?  Didn't stop the team from winning, did it?

When the historians look at the decline and fall of the Bonds-era Giants, the loss of Kent will be seen as a major misstep.

by Skaldheim on Feb 24, 2007 3:36 PM PST up reply actions  

Re: To Sabean Critics
There's a lot of people saying "Sabean is an average GM who looks better because of Bonds" but didn't he have to sign Bonds to have him? Didn't he make the very move that makes him look so good?

And now what if Villalona comes around and performs even half as well as his projected ceiling, with Matt Cain and Time LIN-sih-Cum in the mix. Will we start to say "Well, Sabean should have been fired, but he rode the success of that Villalona kid and some sharp pitching."

I'm just trying to see where we draw the line.

Sabean made the move to get Bonds, and then he based his other moves around it. Now with Bonds headingout we actually have some seriously exciting players ready (or almost) to take over.

I'll say that there are two strong knocks on Sabean: 1) that he never built a great team around Bonds, and always simply straddled competitive and 2) that he didn't have an immediate contingency for the end of the Bonds Era.

But still, we've regularly straddled the playoffs during his time, and very nearly won a World Series - which for the Giants even getting to one has been near impossible for, like, 50 years.

So how much is that Bonds? How much is that Sabean? And what I'm really trying to get at... how much is that some combination of the two? I mean, we can't have one without the other (historically speaking).

It just seems backward to me to credit Bonds with all of the success and to conveniently ignore the guy who signed him.

Coming to you by proxy

by howtheyscored on Feb 23, 2007 11:06 AM PST reply actions  

Re: To Sabean Critics
But howie, lad -- Sabean didn't sign Bonds. Magowan did. That was five years before Sabean showed up.

Sabean does deserve credit for RE-signing Bonds, which can sort of be attributed to his one great Moneyballish insight: that old players had become undervalued. But there too, Magowan was probably the prime mover.

by Evan on Feb 23, 2007 11:21 AM PST up reply actions  

Re: To Sabean Critics
Of course, Sabean wasn't the GM when the Giants signed Bonds in winter of 1992, but if you mean he "re-signed" him and has kept him on the payroll ever since, then he certainly should get some of the credit.
yob

by Sayhey on Feb 23, 2007 11:23 AM PST up reply actions  

Re: To Sabean Critics
Yeah, thanks to both of you. I was actually just in the shower right after posting this and my head went "Wait a second... ten years... that doesn't sound right..."

But, you saved me some valuable fact-checking time.

Anything pre-1998 I'm pretty liable to get wrong, just because that was the year that my interest kicked in. I'm kind of just used to thinking that Sabean has done everything because I wasn't paying attention when he wasn't here.

Big Whoopsie on my part. Shouldn't post so readily in the mornings.

Coming to you by proxy

by howtheyscored on Feb 23, 2007 11:31 AM PST up reply actions  

Re: To Sabean Critics
Brian Sabean DOES deserve credit for re-signing Barry Bonds.  But doing so was reasonably close to a no-brainer.

He will deserve much more credit for the success of Tim Lincecum and Angel Villalona because he signed them initially and is developing them.

Even if Brian is fired at the end of the season, he would seem to me to deserve more credit for Tim and Angel than for Barry.

by sharksrog on Feb 24, 2007 12:47 PM PST up reply actions  

Re: To Sabean Critics
I'm glad I started this diary.  Some great comments and information.
  But I wonder, is it reaaly fair or accurate to say Sabean didn't/dosen't have a plan for post-Bonds?  As one of the posters observed, Sabean consistently puts competitive teams on the field.  '07 sure l;ooks like another competitive team(knock on wood).  And '08 and '09.  I mean, it's easy to look at what we don't have.  But it is important to look at what we do have.  Pitching.  Damn good pitching.  And some players who are above average hitters:  Molina, Roberts, Duham, Omar;  Some potential above average hitters:  Aurelia, Klesko, Winn; some guys given an opportunity to break into the line-up as above average hitters:  Linden, Frandsen.
  With Bonds still here, it is hard to say there is no replacement.  It appears he tried this offseason.  We do not know who will be signed for next year.  It may even be Bonds.  I don't think it is a legitimate criticism that he hasn't gotten Bonds' replacement.  We don't actually know when that will be required OR how it will be handled.  

by allfrank on Feb 23, 2007 12:11 PM PST reply actions  

Re: To Sabean Critics
I've been really skeptical about Sabean being the right man for the job of rebuilding in the post-Bonds era (which we're now in, even though Barry's still around), but I have to say, I like what I see so far. Not because of the usual uninspiring collection of vets brought in as free agents -- that's a weakness in Sabean's game that he'll probably never get over -- but because there's every indication that the Giants are getting serious about finding and developing young players. Lincecum and Burriss look like great picks. Villalona and the Australian thing are encouraging signs that the horizons are broadening. The team seems willing to pay what it takes to get the best players with the bounty of draft picks in June. This is the way the best organizations operate.

by Evan on Feb 23, 2007 12:29 PM PST up reply actions  

Re: To Sabean Critics
I agree Brian Sabean is doing some very nice things now.  I just wish he had been more pro-active in doing so.

by sharksrog on Feb 24, 2007 12:48 PM PST up reply actions  

Re: To Sabean Critics
The Giants are and will continue to be a wealthy team.  Even with their debt service on the ballpark they are ahead of the game.  MLB has been hostile to their only competition and without the A's in the market they would be Red Sox/Yankees rich.  They are still a high-payroll caliber team.  Thus, the Giants have no excuse to have such a lousy offense.

It make no sense that Sabean hasn't acquired any young up-and-comers over the past two seasons.  Anyone else in his shoes would have been furiously wheeling and dealing to get talent in place that would be hitting its stride in the year or two after Bonds retires.  This has not occured, to the shock of almost everyone watching.

The situation instead is that the Giants need massive fixes on the offense and have nobody to trade to get it.  They have no farm system producing starting talent.  They will thus need to be overly reliant on the free agent market.

The biggest irony is that the best players have been the oldest.  Vizquel has been good yet it's incredibly unwise to invest in him for two more years.  The best free agent next season out there will be Alex Rodriguez.  The Giants can make a run to sign him.  Will they choose not to so as to keep a 41 year old Vizquel for another year or two?  What happens after that?

If they choose not to spend big on the big name Rodriguez will they instead use that money to fill out two or three positions with talented players?  Show me names, because I don't see them.

Sabean is an uninspiring GM.  The worst part is that the team across the Bay has half the money and tons of injury problems yet manages to put 5 all-star caliber offensive players on the field every year.

by lastexit on Feb 23, 2007 12:26 PM PST reply actions  

Re: To Sabean Critics
What team across the bay are you watching? "5 all-star caliber offensive players on the field every year"? You've got to be smoking some great shit in those east bay bleachers if you really believe that. After Tejeda left, it has been Chavez as the only real interesting player to watch. Even if you count the one year wonder of Frank Thomas, it has been all about pitching in Oakland for years. Now let's see how they do in the post-Zito years, before we start nominating their GM (Beane isn't it?) for sainthood.
yob

by Sayhey on Feb 23, 2007 1:47 PM PST up reply actions  

Re: To Sabean Critics
Now let's see how they do in the post-Zito years  

I kept hearing the same thing after the Mulder and Hudson trades. In the two years since then, the A's have averaged 90.5 wins. How many more years is it going to take before you admit that Beane might know what he's doing?

I know, I know, you're reacting against all the annoying Moneyball fanboy hype over Billy Beane. But really now, there can't be any doubt that he's among the very best GMs in the game. And I'm sorry to say that he's clearly better than our guy.
 

by Evan on Feb 23, 2007 2:32 PM PST up reply actions  

Re: To Sabean Critics
I'll readily admit that * is a good GM. Better than Sabean? Perhaps, perhaps not. He has built a good team around young players. I think that points to an excellent scouting department across the bay. I'm not sure how much of that is Billy Beane and how much is other people, but I'm sure Beane knows how to take advantage of good young players when he gets them. Especially young pitching. I'm just not willing to anoint the man because he has been able to do a good job. As I've said many times in these forums, there are many ways to build a successful team. Two of those ways are shown by each Bay Area team. Problem is that in some people's minds only one way is valid.
yob

by Sayhey on Feb 23, 2007 3:41 PM PST up reply actions  

Re: To Sabean Critics
Sorry, I don't know how "Beane" became "*".
yob

by Sayhey on Feb 23, 2007 3:42 PM PST up reply actions  

Re: To Sabean Critics
And one way has produced winning ball clubs the past two seasons, while the other hasn't. Sabean's strategy of scooping up as many old guys as possible hasn't proven to be successful at all.
Steroids > Hurricanes

by Punch Rockgroin on Feb 23, 2007 4:05 PM PST up reply actions  

Re: To Sabean Critics
It was sucessful in 2002 (95 Wins) with Lofton, Sanders, Bell, and Santiago.  It was sucessful in 2003 (100 Wins) with Grissom, Santiago, and Galarraga.  It was sucessful in 2004 (91 Wins) with Grissom, Tucker, and Cruz.  It didn't fail until 2005 and 2006 when Barry's health had more to do with these failings then anything Alou, Vizquel, or Matheny failed to do.  This was the plan for Barry's 2002-2006 $90M contract and it worked very well for the first three years and probably would have worked very well for the last two too if Barry had stayed healthy.

2007 Is a transition year where we have added better then average position player holders (Molina, Aurilia, Klesko, and Roberts) while we focus on allowing the new "centerpiece" of our franchise (young stud rotation) to continue to improve and mature.  In addition, inspite of being a "transition year", we still have a real shot at the playoffs in 2007.

In 2008 you should see the depature of Barry Bonds, Matt Morris (Trade), Armando Benitez, Pedro Feliz, Omar Vizquel, and Ryan Klesko.  This will free up $40M to spend on new position players that should be younger, healthier, and overall better then those they replace.  In fact, $40M is enough to sign both A-Rod and Andrew Jones if they both decide to be Free Agents.  I think we all would be very happy with the following 2008 lineup:

LF Dave Roberts
RF Randy Winn
SS Alez Rodriguez
CF Andrew Jones
2B Ray Durham
1B Rich Aurilia
C Bengie Molina
3B Kevin Frandsen

The future is bright and so many of you are just blinded by your hatred of Sabean that you can see it.
 

by giantsrainman on Feb 23, 2007 4:58 PM PST up reply actions  

the future is bright!
yeah, the future will look bright when you add both alex rodriguez and andruw jones to any lineup.  

of course, there is like a 1% chance two of the top 20 players in ALL of baseball won't BOTH choose to sign with the giants, right?  i mean, the other 29 teams may also have some money to spend, right?  

how many free agent hitters did sabean go after this year (before ending up with bonds and zito), and how many of them ended up signing with teams other than the giants?

by xbhaskarx on Feb 24, 2007 8:46 AM PST up reply actions  

Re: the future is bright!
although in your case i see you added "Alez Rodriguez" and "Andrew Jones"...

by xbhaskarx on Feb 24, 2007 8:54 AM PST up reply actions  

Re: the future is bright!
You missed the point, we have the money to add them both, if we don't then we should be able to do something else of equal value.

by giantsrainman on Feb 24, 2007 9:32 AM PST up reply actions  

Re: To Sabean Critics
There are three problems with relying heavily on signing free agents to fix a team's problems:

First, the supply is dwindling, as teams are beginning to realize that it is often more difficult and expensive to replace their good players than to pay to keep them.

Second, the price is rising -- rapidly.  This is the law of supply and demand.

Third, the top free agents are pursued by many teams, meaning that aside from Boston and the Yankees, a single team's chances of signing free agents isn't great.  True, adding Alex Rodriguez and Andruw Jones would make the Giants a somewhat formidable team in 2008, but there is no guarantee of signing either one -- let alone both.

And even if they were able to do so, the lineup you posited leaves the Giants significantly above-average at only Rodriquez's and Jones' positions, and probably Durham's.  They still wouldn't appear likely to equal the 850 runs they scored as recently as 2004.

by sharksrog on Feb 24, 2007 12:55 PM PST up reply actions  

Re: To Sabean Critics
Maybe, but only if the add alot of money to their payroll. The Giants may be losing Bonds, Benitez, et al., but a large fraction of that savings has already been accounted for in salary bumps and deferred payments. Zito gets a 4.5M raise in 2008, Randy Winn gets a 4M raise, Benitez and Vizquel get 1.6M and 1M in deferred bonuses respectively, Molina gets another 2M, Matheny has a 2M buyout (which I'm pretty sure he'll get, though it hasn't be announced), Roberts get a 1.5M bump, Aurilia and Lowry get 1M, Durham gets half a million. That's already about 16M of the 40M in expiring contracts already accounted for, plus Bonds gets unspecified deferred payments, there are some arbitration eligibles as well, and trading Morris is hardly assured.  

by Bhaakon on Feb 24, 2007 2:55 PM PST up reply actions  

Re: To Sabean Critics
Excellent point, Sayhey.  If the object was to win with the youngest players, EVERYBODY would follow the A's method.  They happen to spend their money on young players and the draft.  They let FAs go and add thru the draft.  And they have been successful.  Yankee or Atlanta successful?  No.  Sabean has used a different method.  The whole idea behind this post, as I am beginning to see, is that some people prefer the Beane method and dislike the Sabean method.  Then they look for reasons to support their preference.  I happen to like both methods, think both GMs are really good.  I see their differences.  And I see they each has limitations under which they operate.  I think it is disingenuous to measure Sabean against Beane based on the number of position players each has produced.  That has not been Sabean's goal or his emphasis.  You can dislike the method, but it is inaccurate to say he is stupid or his method sucks.  The Giants, as a poster has pointed out have won more games over the past , what, 10 years, than the hated Dodgers, all the teams in the division.  They are very near the top of the list for MLB in that time period.
  I am a Giant fan.  I would not mind if the Giants used the Beane strategy or the Sabean strategy.  Just so long as we are consistently a contender and get to the post season every few years.  To expect more, I think, is unrealistic.  But, once the Giants hire a GM I am going to try to understand his strategy and try to see if it is working.  My objection is that a lot of critics criticize in a vacuum without understanding what Sabean is trying to do.  Michael Tucker is only one example.  People say Sabes was "stupid" for signing him just before the deadline and losing a pick.  Sabes did that precisely to save the money from the # 1 pick so he could spend it on the major league club.  People may not agree, but it was not stupid, it was actually rather clever and designed to improve the team for that year.  Did the team suffer into the future?  I don't think so.  Has the team changed that strategy?  I think so.  This year, alone, we have what, 8 picks in the first 3 rounds?  People just get angry and don't analyze.  They want to criticize moves from 3, 4 years ago without understanding the underlying strategy.  And they don't want to look for a changing, emphasis on the minors, strategy, because they already have decided anything Sabean does is wrong.  I can't imagine that is fun.

by allfrank on Feb 23, 2007 4:12 PM PST up reply actions  

Re: To Sabean Critics
The object SHOULD be to win with the youngest players, since those players are the most affordable as a group.  Brian Sabean has tried to find a sweet spot at the other end of the age spectrum, and to some extent he has been successful.  

One problem is that young players are generally better at the end of their contracts than old players and thus don't need to replaced en masse as was the case with the Giants plethora of aging free agents this off-season.

by sharksrog on Feb 23, 2007 4:49 PM PST up reply actions  

Re: To Sabean Critics
"The object SHOULD be to win with the youngest players, since those players are the most affordable as a group." WHY? I always thought the object was to win, not to win cheaply. I don't understand this fascination with saving money for management. Is it your money? I'm quite willing to cheer for well paid players, as well as cheer for players working for the major league minimum. AS LONG AS THEY WIN. Problem with young players is it is very hard to tell when they will play consistently well. But if you pick the right young players, then great. If you pick the right old players and they win, then great as well. But please tell me why I should be concerned with how the money is distributed amongst multi-millionaires? That has nothing to do with enjoying baseball, or evaluating baseball talent. It only is of interest if you think you are a budding young baseball exec who can save his boss some bucks.
yob

by Sayhey on Feb 23, 2007 8:26 PM PST up reply actions  

Re: To Sabean Critics
Winning cheaply means that you can win even more expensively.

That's pretty much it.

by Bhaakon on Feb 24, 2007 1:38 AM PST up reply actions  

Re: To Sabean Critics
Unless a team is the Yankees or Red Sox, they can't afford to pay the top players unless they are young.

Let's imagine the Giants of the future having to pay Tim Lincecum, Angel Villalona and Matt Cain after all three players have reached free agency eligibility.  It's going to be darn tough to keep that trio together.  The only hope would seem to be to surround them with lots of productive players who HAVEN'T reached free-agency eligibility.

The Marlins were a huge surprise last season, weren't they?  Do you think their having one of baseball's players, Miguel Cabrera, under contract for less than a half million dollars had anything to do with that?

Fortunately for the Giants, Cain, Lincecum and Villalona WILL likely be those great young and inexpensive players on a declining basis over the next few years.

The Giants have had some success with finding the sweet salary spot among older players.  But finding values among older players is band-aiding.  Finding values among younger players is building.

by sharksrog on Feb 24, 2007 1:01 PM PST up reply actions  

Re: To Sabean Critics
And there is a time to fill with veterans and there is a time to build/rebuild.  In '00 - '05 it was time to add "perform now' veterans.  The emphasis has already started to change - Lincecum, Vilallona, 8 picks in first 4 rounds (or something like that).  Plus, this offseason, Sabean held on to the young pitching.  So he has both put together a competitive team AND is building for the future.

by allfrank on Feb 24, 2007 1:37 PM PST up reply actions  

Re: To Sabean Critics
Why should there be?

Just because the Giants were competing for the playoffs doesn't mean they shouldn't have been drafting well and showing more interest in international talent. The money they saved by not doing so was almost negligible in comparison to the total payroll, but the impact on current and future rosters is/will be devastating.  

by Bhaakon on Feb 24, 2007 3:00 PM PST up reply actions  

Re: To Sabean Critics
"Unless a team is the Yankees or Red Sox, they can't afford to pay the top players unless they are young."

Problem is I don't believe this basic assumption. Baseball teams are making money hand over fist. Teams are valued at astronomical dollars. There is stability in the collective bargaining agreement, and the idiots who call themselves owners have never been in a better position. So why should I accept the cries of poverty when it comes to paying players? Teams set budgets and then go over those budgets every year, which only further proves the point that the money to spend is there - it is only a question of how much winds up in a players pocket and how much goes into the owner's. The Yankees and the Red Sox MAY well be among the fattest of the fat cats, but none of them are ready to file bankruptcy.

yob

by Sayhey on Feb 24, 2007 4:11 PM PST up reply actions  

Re: To Sabean Critics
Let's look at it this way.  Whatever a team's budget is, if it doesn't get as much as possible for its dollars, it won't be as good a team as it could be with those dollars.

As the salaries for players eligible for free agency is exploding, teams without huge budgets such as the Yankees and Red Sox (and even the Yankees aren't spending quite as wildly as in the recent past)must receive production from artificially underpaid young players whose salaries are held down by their not being able for free agency and thus not able to sell their wares to the highest bidder.

The Giants approach was to find value in older players.  To a certain extent it worked.  But there are two problems with that approach.  First, the veterans are more expensive than players in their first three or four years.  Second, while the young players are approaching their primes and may contribute more in the future, the aging players' contributions likely will diminish over time.

Finding value in young players builds a team.  Finding value in older players merely provides bandaids, even if on occasion they are strong bandaids.

In part because the Giants and some other teams  DID find some value in older players, in part because players just seem to keep lasting longer and longer, in part because the market for free agents has exploded as the supply has diminished and the demand remained pretty much the same, older players are no longer the bargains they once were.  That makes the younger players even BIGGER bargains.

Yet the youngest everyday starter for the Giants turns 32 in April.  And the Giants have no everyday players coming up who are both older than 16 and likely to become impact players.

by sharksrog on Feb 25, 2007 11:35 PM PST up reply actions  

Re: To Sabean Critics
Given that Frank Thomas will make the Hall of Fame, he likely shouldn't be considered a one-year wonder -- although perhaps you were merely referring to his tenure with the A's, which was in fact limited to a single season.

You make a very good point that the A's will have their hands full being competitive this season, although I would attribute that at least as much to the absence of Thomas as to the loss of Barry Zito.  Still, I think the A's are still stronger than the Giants at this time.  And, yes, that damning them with somewhat faint praise.

As for Billy Beane, perhaps only the Twins GM has gotten as much out of his money as has Billy.  The A's somehow remained very good even after losing Jason Giambi, Miguel Tejada, Tim Hudson and Mark Mulder.  If they can pull off doing so afer adding Thomas and Zito to their loss list, I think Beane may be worthy of magician status.

by sharksrog on Feb 23, 2007 2:08 PM PST reply actions  

Re: To Sabean Critics
His one year with the team is, indeed, what I was referring to, but as to your overall point, I agree. The A's have done a great job in bringing up inexpensive talent and kept themselves in competition in their division. I give great props to the scouts that have regularly found the talent that have kept them going. With which team is better now, I'm not even going to hazard a guess until I see how some young players play out on both sides of the bay.
yob

by Sayhey on Feb 23, 2007 2:22 PM PST up reply actions  

Re: To Sabean Critics
Draper lays it out pretty well: "Gm's future hinges on season."  If the Giants don't put it together this year then Sabes is out.  That Draper, who is kind of a journalistic mouthpiece for the Giants, would write this suggests that the winds are very much blowing against Sabes.

As Draper goes this one's worth reading.  

http://sanfrancisco.giants.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20070223&content_id=1813376&vkey=spt 2007news&fext=.jsp&c_id=sf  

by orangeandblackattack on Feb 23, 2007 6:32 PM PST reply actions  

Re: To Sabean Critics
I'm sorry, but you lost me at "Draper lays..."

The guy is an idiot.  He's also a certified journalistic mouthpiece, not a kind of, as you would suggest.  

Hats for bats, keep bats warm !

by PacBellBoozer on Feb 24, 2007 1:32 AM PST up reply actions  

Re: To Sabean Critics
If Rich Draper is an idiot, why don't you help us all out by applying for his position?  That would be really nice of you to do for us.  Thanks for thinking of it.

by sharksrog on Feb 24, 2007 1:03 PM PST up reply actions  

Re: To Sabean Critics
Apply for his position?  Why the hell would I want to do that?  Being assigned to, and probably paid by MLB and the Giants to "report" is the last thing I'd want to do.  This guy is a mouthpiece for the organization and his office is probably located somewhere in the public relations area, not anywhere near the real journalists.

Just because I'm calling the guy a hack doesn't mean that I'm saying I'd be any better.  If that was the case, the Giants should sign me as their new closer because I've had more than a few things to say about 'Mando.

Hats for bats, keep bats warm !

by PacBellBoozer on Feb 24, 2007 2:35 PM PST up reply actions  

Re: To Sabean Critics
But can you play 1b?
Save The Pitcher. Save The World

by E Ticket on Feb 24, 2007 3:01 PM PST up reply actions  

Re: To Sabean Critics
But of course buddy.  I can also play a bit of 3rd as well!
Hats for bats, keep bats warm !

by PacBellBoozer on Feb 24, 2007 3:06 PM PST up reply actions  

TO: Boozer's Critics
Boozer, you been jumping on George W again??

Before you throw another stone, let's see if you can't start a thermonuclear war any faster, bub!

by Moggeee on Feb 24, 2007 6:51 PM PST up reply actions  

Re: TO: Boozer's Critics
That's quite the idiot to try and out-do.  I'm afraid to tell you that you're asking for a miracle with that one.  
Hats for bats, keep bats warm !

by PacBellBoozer on Feb 24, 2007 7:51 PM PST up reply actions  

Re: To Sabean Critics
I'm on the fence on the accuracy of this Draper story. Magowan and Sabean are joined at the hip. I think Magowan will find a way to praise Sabean and give him a new deal no matter what happens this year. This reminds me of what we see here in New York in the NBA with the Knicks. The owner, Jim Dolan, claimed that Isiah Thomas was fighting for his job for next season, but that was just a show to appease fed up fans. Everyone knows he's going to give Isiah an extension as soon as this season is over even if the team misses the playoffs and has traded away its lottery pick. The same is true of Magowan. Even if the team falls into the basement, he will point at guys like Matt Cain, Tim Lincecum and Angel Villalona and whoever Sabean drafts this year to say the team is on the right track anyway. And you know what?? He would be right. What team has such a genius running it that you wish he were running the Giants right now instead of Sabean?? If you can't think of more than a handful, why fire Sabean??

by rxmeister on Feb 24, 2007 6:45 AM PST reply actions  

Peter sticks with Brian
This is abundantly true.

Sabean will not be fired until he suffers sustained losing, and only under the condition that Barry has retired or been sent packing to another team.

Sabean must be allowed a couple of attempts at constructing a team without the possibility of a Bonds hanging around to improve it.

He fails that, and he's gone.

But let's raise another possibility:

Sabean -- soon a free agent, let us not forget -- is hired away from the Giants in autumn of 2007.

by Moggeee on Feb 24, 2007 7:09 PM PST up reply actions  

Replace Sabean with who?
No. Really. Steinbrenner finally learned his lesson, about firing people without having a much better replacement. Who is better? That is (or will be) available and desirous of coming here? Really? Demonstrably better, not maybe, hopefully, oh why not better? Bueller? Anyone?  

For over a year Magowan and Sabaen knew they were going to get rid of Alou. And the best they could do was the Human Bobblehead?  Not that he isn't a vast improvement. But you have one of the top 3 or 4 franchises in MLB, in terms of prestige, location, ownership integrity and the best we can do is Bruce?  Where's the ingenuity and creativity and excitement from the early days of Magowan's stewardship?

Its the difference between running away from something and pursuing something. Like people who quit their job at a Taco Bell drive up window to take a job cleaning the shitters at Jack In the Box. Yeah, you don't have to wear a googy headset all night but at what price.

Look at the San Diego Chargers. I've never thought of Schotenheimer as a good post-season coach. But the timing of his release was horrible and they ended up with Norvell Milquetoast, who has had absolutely zero success in previous stints as a head coach.  All because the GM and Marty don't like each other. They let personalities instead of coaching and personnel principles determine the future of the most talented roster in the NFL.

Prediction:  Chargers barely finish above .500 as the team becomes more interested in "Ugly Betty" reurns by the 9th week of the season.  Jerry Rice referred to Turner as incompetent with no leadership skills as a head coach when he played under Milquetoast in Oakland.

I would think Magowan would learn his lesson from his kneejerk reaction to the 2002 World Series by firing Baker, who had leadership skills and prior success, with Alou, who had no leadership skills and no prior managerial success. Which Alou continued to build upon in his four years of Rip Van Winkle impersonations as the Giants manager.

I'll take the 10 years of Baker against the 4 years of Alou anyday--1996 notwithstanding.

Well, having vented all of that, the end result is simply this. If the Giants play well and win, everything negativer goes away. The bitching about the farm system, Sabaen, the manager, Magowan, roster, Morris, Fleas, old age. Gone. Just win baby. (ducks)

Save The Pitcher. Save The World

by E Ticket on Feb 24, 2007 10:48 AM PST reply actions  

Re: Replace Sabean with who?
As usual, E, I'd love to frame this post or something.

If Magowan is a quiet meddler, as it becoming more clear by the day, then he should be patient with the people who work for him.  If he's really a stealthy Steinbrenner, then let's hope he looks in the mirror before he pulls the plug on any more managers or on Sabean.

I can totally see making a change if Sabean is burnt out and worn out by the job.  I don't know if that's the case.  If it is, Magowan's interference is probably a major part of it.  If it is, I can see bringing someone in who has more energy.  But let's be realistic -- whoever replaces Sabean is going to get the same instructions that Sabean has had.  Win every year.  Short term solutions over long term ones.  Will the new guy be any better at operating under those rules than Sabean?  Will he keep Tidrow around to ID good pitching in the draft?  Who knows?

Be careful what you ask for, guys.

by Skaldheim on Feb 24, 2007 11:19 AM PST up reply actions  

Can't keep my eye on the ball
E may have had a great message, but for me it got lost in the background noise.

The descriptions of the jobs at Taco Bell and Jack in the Box included graphic insider details and went beyond mere observation. In other words, it sounds like a true life experience.

And I am shocked, shocked at that kind of background in my Giant Pundits.

(It's so deliciously low.  -Henry Higgins)

by Moggeee on Feb 24, 2007 7:26 PM PST up reply actions  

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