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Around SBN: A Miracle Squared: Celebrating The Greatness Of Bo Jackson

Sabean chat - some interesting tidbits

Highlights:

  • Wants to upgrade offense and bullpen
  • Willing to trade pitching for a big bat
  • Cain and Lincecum "probably" untouchable
  • Frandsen will probably be a starter next year
  • Correia and Sanchez up for #5 starter
  • Some quotes:

    On upgrading offense: "In moving forward without Bonds, we understand that we will need to address the need for a middle-of-the-order presence. We'll thoroughly explore the trade and free agent markets, knowing that our pitching depth may engage us in trade talks for such a player. "

    More on upgrading: "We're definitely looking to build this team around pitching, speed and defense, all attributes that are suited to both AT&T Park and the style of play in the National League West. Our starting pitching is among the best in the game, and there are a lot of clubs that would like to be able to say that. Again, we realize that we have to upgrade our offense and our bullpen."

    On Frandsen: "Kevin will probably be given a chance to be an everyday player with a position to be determined."

    Q: In your opinion, who was the Giants' 2007 MVP?

    Sabean: Bengie Molina.

    On Ortmeier: "Ortmeier has impressed everybody with how quickly he's been able to pick up the first-base position. Hopefully, he'll develop the power desired from a corner infielder. "

    On potential #5 starters: "Correia and Sanchez will be given that opportunity. "

    Q: Are Matt Cain and Lincecum "untouchable" as far as possible trades in the offseason?

    Sabean: Probably.

    On Schierholtz: "Schierholtz will play in the Arizona Fall League this offseason and gain more at-bats against quality prospect pitching. He obviously played well enough at the big-league level this year to be in the mix for playing time next year."

    On Velez: "Velez will participate in the Arizona Fall League, playing mostly second base."

    Q: What were positives this year?

    Sabean: Unquestionably, our starting pitching and the emergence of Wilson, Walker and Hennessey at the end of the year.

    This FanPost is reader-generated, and it does not necessarily reflect the views of McCovey Chronicles. If the author uses filler to achieve the minimum word requirement, a moderator may edit the FanPost for his or her own amusement.

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    ......wow
    Q: In your opinion, who was the Giants' 2007 MVP?

    Sabean: Bengie Molina.

    Well you have your answer folks. Sabean does not know anything about baseball.

    by awesomer @ McCovey Chronicles on Oct 1, 2007 8:01 PM PDT reply actions  

    Re: ......wow
    Interesting comment here, because I like to think I know something about baseball, and I also think that Bengie was the MVP, although he's the MVP by default, because nobody really had a good season. I guess some would say Bonds, but to me he just missed too many games and had too many cold streaks as he pursued the HR record.
    Randy Messenger: "Remember when my ERA was under 2.00??"

    by rxmeister on Oct 1, 2007 8:19 PM PDT up reply actions  

    Re: ......wow
    I would say it was Bonds, he was like 5x more valuable than Bengie. Bengie's defense was also pretty bad.

    by xanthan on Oct 1, 2007 8:29 PM PDT up reply actions  

    Players more deserving than Molina
    Bonds
    Cain
    Lincecum
    Lowry
    Winn
    maybe even Feliz

    by awesomer @ McCovey Chronicles on Oct 1, 2007 8:30 PM PDT up reply actions  

    Re: ......wow
    Bonds 126 games
    Bengie 134 games

    Bonds OPS+ 170
    Bengie OPS+ 87

    Bonds stands alone.

    by nostocksjustbonds on Oct 1, 2007 8:33 PM PDT up reply actions  

    Re: ......wow
    No one on the Giants really had much of a chance to be more valuable than Barry Bonds.

    If anyone truly had been more valuable than Barry, that player would have had a wonderful season or -- more likely -- Barry wouldn't have had a really good season and the Giants would have finished with the worst record in the majors.

    by sharksrog on Oct 2, 2007 3:10 PM PDT up reply actions  

    Re: Sabean chat - some interesting tidbits
    Thanks for posting that. I was wondering how this chat went...
    Fairley odd parent to Wendell...

    by Mark carry on on Oct 1, 2007 8:11 PM PDT reply actions  

    Re: Sabean chat - some interesting tidbits
    interesting????

    he refused to say that kfran has already won the 2nd base job

    he has opened the possibilty of trading cain and/or lincecum

    he says that ort needs to develop power when the guys he's been putting at first never had power

    he refused to give any real props to the position prospects

    he refused to answer any real questions put to him by real fans

    fire sabean...he is evil

    by bacci40 on Oct 1, 2007 8:41 PM PDT reply actions  

    Re: Sabean chat - some interesting tidbits
    At least he didn't openly question whether the kids  could hit(Linden) or come right out and say they can't(Ellison).  He's making progress.

    I don't think any player or prospect is totally untouchable.  For instance, lots of teams out there are going to be desperate for pitching this winter, not the least being the Dodgers.  Ned Colletti is also going to be under intense pressure to produce a winner next season.  Let's say he has a brain cramp and offers Kemp, LaRoche, Kershaw and Hu for Tim Lincecum.  I'd say Sabean should at the very least give that some serious thought.

    by DrBGiantsfan on Oct 1, 2007 10:18 PM PDT up reply actions  

    Sidebar
    (For those of you who haven't learned, Sabean is a wheezing windbag.)

    by Moggeee on Oct 1, 2007 10:45 PM PDT up reply actions  

    Re: Sabean chat - some interesting tidbits
    colletti already has the brain cramp, and by the end of december, will be shipping kemp and their top pitching prospect to the twinkies for a one year santana rental

     

    by bacci40 on Oct 2, 2007 1:14 AM PDT up reply actions  

    Re: Sabean chat - some interesting tidbits
    I think you may be right with this prediction.
    The SF Giants: agressively promoting young talent since 2008.

    by Lyle @ McCovey Chronicles on Oct 2, 2007 3:57 AM PDT up reply actions  

    Re: Sabean chat - some interesting tidbits
    "he refused to say that kfran has already won the 2nd base job"

    Why should he guarantee Frandsen the starting 2B job?  Shouldn't he earn it? They need to leave options open.  

    "he has opened the possibilty of trading cain and/or lincecum"

    He said they're "probably untouchable". He should never close a door completely or show his hand.  If the phone rings with interest in Cain, he wants to be able to say "Can I interest you in this nice shiny Lowry and some prospects?"

    "he says that ort needs to develop power when the guys he's been putting at first never had power"

    I think you'd have criticized Sabean no matter what he said on this subject and would have screamed bloddy murder if he said "We don't think power at first base is important.".  

    "he refused to give any real props to the position prospects"

    I disagree.  He's said nice things about Ort, Nate and KFrand.  Baring a FA aquisition, he's annointed Davis the starting CF next year.

    Attention all cars: Be on the look-out for Ryan Klesko's missing power.

    by Goofus on Oct 2, 2007 9:32 AM PDT up reply actions  

    Re: Sabean chat - some interesting tidbits
    be a sabean apologist if you wish

    the man is an evil bastard

    ort has to develop power, but its ok for sabean to keep signing first baseman that have no power??? horseshit

    and ort had exactly the same amount of hr's that klesko did...in half the at bats....

    when talking about the prospects, he tempered his remarks, as if it would kill him to speak glowingly about them

    kfran hits 370 in the month of sept, against contending teams....ray spends the year fighting not to fall below the mendoza line...i think kfran has earned the spot....unless you think that st really means something

    the entire chat showed how myopic and out of touch our gm is

    this team will lose 100 games next season, and you will spend that time patting sabean on the back for a job well done

    by bacci40 on Oct 2, 2007 1:26 PM PDT up reply actions  

    Re: Sabean chat - some interesting tidbits
    I think you're perpetrating a couple of logical fallacies here. Not everything you're talking about deals with mutual exclusivity the way you seem to be saying.

    I don't think Goofus is Sabean Apologizing. I just think he's trying to look at things a little more evenly than many of us who are just ape crap over the edge with the guy and his double speak (myself included).

    Dave Righetti: You don't know him. / Read My Blog, Because I Write It

    by howtheyscored on Oct 2, 2007 2:01 PM PDT up reply actions  

    Re: Sabean chat - some interesting tidbits
    The emergence of Hennessey at season's end?

    Looked more like submergence to me.

    Friend to the aardvark community.

    by leewhee on Oct 1, 2007 9:07 PM PDT reply actions  

    Re: Sabean chat - some interesting tidbits
    At season's middle?
    Steve Kline: Pretty okay, but only on a whole season basis and not based on what he's doing now.

    by groug on Oct 1, 2007 10:39 PM PDT up reply actions  

    Re: Sabean chat - some interesting tidbits
    It was a late-season convergence of opposing bats and Hennessey's fading slider.

    by Moggeee on Oct 1, 2007 10:47 PM PDT up reply actions  

    Re: Sabean chat - some interesting tidbits
    He actually quoted "speed doesn't slump" in the chat in response to a question about power being a necessity. Which it is. The next two years are going to be agonizing... and fascinating. Someone should write a book about it. "How not to run a baseball team" seems a fitting title. Or "Giant Balls of Hot Gas: The Brian Sabean Method". Either works.
    Adopted Giant: Randy Winn. Can't wait for Zito to start Opening Day '08 so I can get a leg up on my drinking.

    by Punch Rockgroin on Oct 1, 2007 10:36 PM PDT reply actions  

    Interesting GM tidbits
    Sabean has often been compared to a bloated windsock.

    by Moggeee on Oct 1, 2007 10:50 PM PDT up reply actions  

    Re: Sabean chat - some interesting tidbits
    Possible book titles
    1. The Giant Doughnut:  2007 SF Giants Offensive Output and Brian Sabean's Daily Breakfast
    2. Barry Scary:  How to Build a Baseball Team with Exactly One Offensive Threat
    3. "It sounds ridiculous, but really, I don't think we performed or competed or took the field like a last-place team." And Other Terrible Opines.
    4. Suck
    Sharlon Schoop: "It's only stealing if you get caught...more than 54% of the time"

    by Woody Wins on Oct 2, 2007 2:55 PM PDT up reply actions  

    Re: Sabean chat - some interesting tidbits
    How about "Your 2008 Giants: So this is how Pittsburgh felt"
    My boy ain't fat, he's just big boned. Big bat, too.

    by Roger on Oct 2, 2007 3:36 PM PDT up reply actions  

    Re: Sabean chat - some interesting tidbits
    I can't even read Sabean anymore without getting mad. Buh. And to think only a few short months ago I was defending him happily.

    I don't care if what he says is largely diplomatic political rhetoric. I just don't want to hear such total tooish nonsense coming out of anybody's mouth who is connected to running or building this team.

    It's awful.

    Not everything he said is bad, but enough of it that I'm just going to ignore the worthwhile parts.

    Dave Righetti: You don't know him. / Read My Blog, Because I Write It

    by howtheyscored on Oct 1, 2007 11:41 PM PDT reply actions  

    Re: Sabean chat - some interesting tidbits
    Only Joe Morgan is more proficient at not answering questions.

    I fear what asking the man the time of day would bring.

    "In a sense it's a quarter past 12. But when you think about it, we're really on Mars."

    Adopted Giant: Randy Winn. Can't wait for Zito to start Opening Day '08 so I can get a leg up on my drinking.

    by Punch Rockgroin on Oct 2, 2007 12:05 AM PDT up reply actions  

    Re: Sabean chat - some interesting tidbits
    The really ironic thing is that 12:30 is still an awesome time to eat lunch, but we just have to move on from the whole 11:30-1:30 block of food-readiness.

    I know our fans are really going to miss eating at convenient hours, but it really is what's best for the ballclub, and we think it's got to be what's best for lunch, too.

    <Ralph Barbieri: "I'm hungry. How did the lunch block react when you told it?">

    Well, it was obviously a little disappointed, but I think it knows where we're coming from and we have a real understanding.

    <From the other room, Lunch: "Suck it, Giants.">

    Dave Righetti: You don't know him. / Read My Blog, Because I Write It

    by howtheyscored on Oct 2, 2007 12:37 AM PDT up reply actions  

    Re: Sabean chat - some interesting tidbits
    Howie, no need for the correction; I just automatically supplied the missing "L" - seems like the Giants have been doing that all year, so we're used to it.
    The SF Giants: agressively promoting young talent since 2008.

    by Lyle @ McCovey Chronicles on Oct 2, 2007 5:01 AM PDT up reply actions  

    Re: Sabean chat - some interesting tidbits
    I was willing to give Sabean the benefit of the doubt when people said to give him a second chance after the extension... maybe he was really being controlled by Magowan, maybe he was really hamstrung by Bonds (LOL!), who knows.

    Okay, benefit of the doubt time is over. Sabean no longer has any idea of what makes a winning baseball team.

    Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.

    by jponry on Oct 2, 2007 12:56 AM PDT reply actions  

    Giants postseason breakdown- Good Summary
    There is a plan and Sabean knows far more then those of you that call him an idiot.

    http://www.mercurynews.com/giantsheadlines/ci_7059972

    by giantsrainman on Oct 2, 2007 2:34 AM PDT reply actions  

    Re: Giants postseason breakdown- Good Summary
    Your post has the potential to be one of the all-time greatest sarcastic posts.  However, I have a feeling you were serious.  Can you explain how throwing that link down, which only highlights the trouble this team is in, is proof that Sabes has a plan?  I mean, if the plan is to create the most suicidal pitching staff in history, then it seems well formed and perfectly executed.  Otherwise it is, as is known in the scientific community, a cluster fuck.
    Adoptive father of David Quinowski: Fuck it, dude, let's go bowling

    by marcello on Oct 2, 2007 8:41 AM PDT up reply actions  

    Re: Giants postseason breakdown- Good Summary
    Aaron Rowand? really?  Why the heck does the "shopping list" in this article have 3 Center Fielders?

    by kennv on Oct 2, 2007 10:41 AM PDT up reply actions  

    Re: Giants postseason breakdown- Good Summary
    Because they're some of the only FAs with pop on the market.
    Attention all cars: Be on the look-out for Ryan Klesko's missing power.

    by Goofus on Oct 2, 2007 11:00 AM PDT up reply actions  

    Re: Giants postseason breakdown- Good Summary
    Aaron Rowand is gritty!  He'll be a role model for Frandsen!  Oneoneexclamationpointexclamationpointexclamationpointoneexclamationpoint
    Steve Kline: Pretty okay, but only on a whole season basis and not based on what he's doing now.

    by groug on Oct 2, 2007 11:35 AM PDT up reply actions  

    Re: Giants postseason breakdown- Good Summary
    we'll get Exstein to handle those duties.
    Bonds stands alone.

    by nostocksjustbonds on Oct 2, 2007 12:25 PM PDT up reply actions  

    Re: Giants postseason breakdown- Good Summary
    I usually like Baggerly, but citing Zito and Lowry's won-loss records as evidence of their worth is just plain stupid. Matt Cain was better than both of them, by a lot, and he was 7-16.

    If that's how Sabean is evaluating our pitchers, then he is an idiot. Based on his W-L record, Matt Cain should be traded, but that would be just retarded.

    Bonds stands alone.

    by nostocksjustbonds on Oct 2, 2007 11:36 AM PDT up reply actions  

    Re: Giants postseason breakdown- Good Summary
    Based on the W-L record, Matt Cain is untradable - because nobody would want him. Maybe that's what he means when he says it all the time...
    Dave Righetti: You don't know him. / Read My Blog, Because I Write It

    by howtheyscored on Oct 2, 2007 11:45 AM PDT up reply actions  

    Re: Giants postseason breakdown- Good Summary
    I think Baargdly's points were exactly what we've been talking about here:
    • Know would want to take Zito and his contract on, especially after a season in which he lost more games than he won.
    • Cain is much better than his W/L record would indicate and they'd be foolish to deal him (for anything other than the moon the stars).
    • Lowry's W/L record makes him look shiny to potential suitors and he's a good trade candidate to bring in some offense.
    Attention all cars: Be on the look-out for Ryan Klesko's missing power.

    by Goofus on Oct 2, 2007 11:54 AM PDT up reply actions  

    Re: Giants postseason breakdown- Good Summary
    Sabean must have been reading alot of MCC, because that's basically a summary of the last three months worth of posts.

    Too bad he left out the most important part of the plan: revamping the minor league system to develop good young hitters (ie: not pop-less wonders or mindless hackers) along with (NOT in place of) the good young pitchers.

    Fool me seven times, shame on you. Fool me eight or more times, shame on me.

    by Bhaakon on Oct 2, 2007 1:26 PM PDT up reply actions  

    Re: Sabean chat - some interesting tidbits
    I've gotta say, the only thing worth reading less than Sabean avoiding answering questions (which is what he exactly should be doing) is people going apeshit over the expected lack of content.

    Nothing should be committed to at this point other than keeping all options open.  He should not be guaranteeing starting jobs to the kids (since those can and should become lies should better options appear), not be guaranteeing a trade (that may not come, especially if a rival GM can leverage the embarrassment of breaking a promise if a trade isn't made), not not be saying they'll spend their way out of this (thus becoming a target of every agent of every player on the market), not ruling out (or in) anything.  The decisions should only come once actual options have sought out, and any talk before then is at best hypothetical speculation, and at worst reducing the team's leverage.

    Yet still, people come out and cry criminal when Sabean talks, just as they'd probably be just as apeshit crazy if he said nothing at all to us.

    Anyone who expects something of substance to be said now, or at any point until a move is actually made, is fooling themselves.

    SFDugout.com - Returning Offseason 2007

    by BruteSentiment on Oct 2, 2007 2:39 AM PDT reply actions  

    Re: Sabean chat - some interesting tidbits
    All of that's true (you can't directly give up your game plan going into the offseason). However, in avoiding speaking directly to what he wants to accomplish, Sabean does often talk more philosophically about his approach to winning baseball and there's no indication that he's not being open and sincere in those discussions.  I see no reason why people who disagree -- sometimes vehemently -- with his philosophy shouldn't voice their criticisms of it.

    No matter what anyone says, the voices of fans do have an impact on front offices. We were given two pretty dramatic examples of that with the Giants this year.  So wanting to be one of those voices that has an impact just seems like responsible fandom to me.

    My boy ain't fat, he's just big boned. Big bat, too.

    by Roger on Oct 2, 2007 5:28 AM PDT up reply actions  

    Re: Sabean chat - some interesting tidbits
    It's not that he's vague. It's that his priorities are all turned around. Since well before the season ended he's openly stated that his top priority is to sign or trade for an impact bullpen arm??? The speed and defense BS is at least understandable rhetoric, but then he says things like "you don't need to score runs to win" that go well beyond just avoiding the question into the realm of making himself sound like a complete idiot.

    You can not answer questions and still show that you have a basic understanding of the game you make a career of.

    Dave Righetti: You don't know him. / Read My Blog, Because I Write It

    by howtheyscored on Oct 2, 2007 8:11 AM PDT up reply actions  

    Re: Sabean chat - some interesting tidbits
    Everything I've heard him say is that the offense is a priority.  I've heard him spend more time talking about how the team is going to improve the offense than I have the bullpen.

    I agree with Brute, I think Sabean said enough to talk about without giving away any detailed plans.

    Attention all cars: Be on the look-out for Ryan Klesko's missing power.

    by Goofus on Oct 2, 2007 9:23 AM PDT up reply actions  

    Re: Sabean chat - some interesting tidbits
    Maybe I'm just having the bad luck of hearing all the wrong bits of interview because I've heard very little about the offense as opposed to the bullpen.

    Oh well. Sometimes that's just how the listening schedule goes.

    Dave Righetti: You don't know him. / Read My Blog, Because I Write It

    by howtheyscored on Oct 2, 2007 9:29 AM PDT up reply actions  

    Re: Sabean chat - some interesting tidbits
    The message I keep hearing from them is essentially that the bullpen is the #1 priority, then the offense. It's not just Sabean, either, here's Bochy's take:
    Offense remains a glaring need for the Giants, who rank last in the National League in runs scored. But preventing runs has preoccupied Bochy, who managed consistently solid bullpens in San Diego.

    "I think if you look at our season, it's probably a more pressing issue to make sure we have that in order," Bochy said of the Giants' bullpen [...]

    SJ Giants, 2007 Cal League champs! Couldn't have done it without the All-Father.

    by EliminateMe on Oct 2, 2007 2:46 PM PDT up reply actions  

    Re: Sabean chat - some interesting tidbits
    This is EXACTLY why we need to be looking to trade Molina.  Everything about this guy is overrated: his bat, his glove, his "clutchness".
    Who dat is? That's just Ortmeier's daddy.

    by rotorueter on Oct 2, 2007 4:08 AM PDT reply actions  

    Re: Sabean chat - some interesting tidbits
    I think my biggest problem with talk of trading someone is that it's rarely suggested how to fill the vacancy left by said player.  When you say we should trade Molina, what would be the thought process in replacing him?  As it stands now, we have a couple pitchers we could probably trade and some lineup depth that could be moved, though though it's repeatedly stated that the value of these guys is pretty low.  If Molina is traded, is that with an eye towards the future so we don't worry about who replaces Molina now?  Would Eliezer and Rodriguez be ready for full time platoon work?  And if we're talking just plugging that hole via trade, I think the current holes we already need to fill are more than we can likely trade for.
    "He called the sh** POOP!" -- Adam Sandler

    by JRPhillips on Oct 2, 2007 1:30 PM PDT up reply actions  

    Re: Sabean chat - some interesting tidbits
    Idiot.

    I am really sick of Sabean apologists covering for him everytime he says something stupid like "Molina was our MVP for 2007".  The dude had a .295 OBP.  That's borderline worthless even for a catcher.

    I guess he's the MVP because someone has to catch those pitches or they'll all go to the backstop!

    Oh, I suppose he's just "saying that for the media, it's not what he really thinks" or "he's trying to pump up his trade value" or "he holds his cards so close to his chest, you never really know what he's thinking".

    Idiot.

    by zenbitz on Oct 2, 2007 8:30 AM PDT reply actions  

    Blind Man's Bluff
    He holds his cards so close to his chest, he can't see them himself.

    by Moggeee on Oct 2, 2007 8:45 AM PDT up reply actions  

    Re: Sabean chat - some interesting tidbits
    There is one move that will restore some of my faith in Sabean: Fire Joe Lefebvre.

    If the Batting Coach was anyone but Sabean's BFF, he would have been fired years ago.  Several teams fired their hitting coaches mid-season, and yet the most impotent offense in the league stuck with theirs.  It makes me want to bring the pain.

    Can't w8 for '08!

    by southcitysteve on Oct 2, 2007 10:11 AM PDT reply actions  

    It's going to be an interesting winter
    Rant, rave, get upset and/or call him names but why not wait until after January 1, 2008 when GM Brian Sabean has completed most of his transactions to improve this last place team? Some coaches will be replaced and apparently even some in scouting department are being reviewd.

    Most, if not all, say get another power hitter yet scream when when Sabean addresses Messers. ARod, Hunter and Jones. Are you aware SF had averaged more runs WITHOUT Bonds in line-up than with Bonds in line-up? Hard to believe, but the Giants averaged 4.03 runs in the 116 games Bonds was in the lineup; in 46 games without him, they averaged 4.67 runs. Who knew the brother was keeping us down?

    Let Sabean address the SF Giants needs this winter as he tries to build a winner. Not all of his transactions will be blockbusters. Some may even be controversial. He has done this before and I will give him the opportunity to make this proud franchise respectable and a winner again.

    by wilriv21 on Oct 2, 2007 12:37 PM PDT reply actions  

    Re: It's going to be an interesting winter
    Well said, but I won't wait until the off-season is over before voicing my opinion about various transactions.

    That said, I'm certainly looking forward to seeing how the team takes shape.

    Attention all cars: Be on the look-out for Ryan Klesko's missing power.

    by Goofus on Oct 2, 2007 12:55 PM PDT up reply actions  

    Re: It's going to be an interesting winter
    Are you aware SF had averaged more runs WITHOUT Bonds in line-up than with Bonds in line-up? Hard to believe, but the Giants averaged 4.03 runs in the 116 games Bonds was in the lineup; in 46 games without him, they averaged 4.67 runs. Who knew the brother was keeping us down?

    JESUS.  Please tell me you are joking/being sarcastic.  If not, there needs to be an IQ test to be allowed to post.  I don't think our forefathers realized how stupid people could be when they came up with that free speech idea.

    Look, this is why people say statistics are misleading.  It's because too often people who use them have no idea what they're doing.  If you really think our lineup is better without Bonds you are WRONG.  There is nothing subjective about this.  Sorry for being so rude, but this is getting ridiculous.

    Adoptive father of David Quinowski: Fuck it, dude, let's go bowling

    by marcello on Oct 2, 2007 1:03 PM PDT up reply actions  

    Re: It's going to be an interesting winter
    Somehow, I really don't think you're sorry for being so rude. Rather than name-calling, why don't you offer an explanation for this statistical anomaly. It would be far more interesting than proving you can treat fellow posters like crap.

    If it were the other way around and the team scored more runs with Bonds in the lineup, I'm guessing you'd have no problem offering it as evidence that Bonds should have been brought back.

    Attention all cars: Be on the look-out for Ryan Klesko's missing power.

    by Goofus on Oct 2, 2007 1:22 PM PDT up reply actions  

    Re: It's going to be an interesting winter
    It's very simple actually.  You can't throw down the two numbers, runs scored with Bonds and without, and say, "see."  Regardless of which way it points.  There are way too many variables that are not kept constant between those two data sets to come to any reliable conclusion.  It's why people who don't understand anything about statistics, statistical studies, and sample size should just stay the hell away from numbers and leave them to people who do.
    Adoptive father of David Quinowski: Fuck it, dude, let's go bowling

    by marcello on Oct 2, 2007 2:22 PM PDT up reply actions  

    Re: It's going to be an interesting winter
    It seems nearly impossible to believe that the Giants would score fewer runs with Bonds---but your argument is definitely not convincing.  
    Who dat is? That's just Ortmeier's daddy.

    by rotorueter on Oct 2, 2007 2:34 PM PDT up reply actions  

    Re: It's going to be an interesting winter
    Here's a possible explanation (I have no idea whether this is accurate):

    Many of those games Bonds missed were late in the year when the Giants had stopped playing Durham and Roberts every single f---in' game.  So maybe sample size combined with the absence of the varsity lineup conspired to give us this statistic.  Or maybe it's just sample size.  Either way it's definitely a fluke and goes against all research that has illustrated the absence of a peer effect in baseball.

    The Maharajai steals at will (plus he's not Matt Morris).

    by Mike Benjamin Hit King on Oct 2, 2007 2:48 PM PDT up reply actions  

    Re: It's going to be an interesting winter
    Whereas the folks who DO know about statistics don't bother actually USING them, they just call other people stupid - it's so much less work that way.
    SJ Giants, 2007 Cal League champs! Couldn't have done it without the All-Father.

    by EliminateMe on Oct 2, 2007 3:05 PM PDT up reply actions  

    Re: It's going to be an interesting winter

    OK.  I don't have time to do this properly, but I will try to 'splain.  Here is how I would try to understand this anomaly.
    1. Check the number.  Anyone do this?  What is the source?
    2. What is the standard deviation of runs scored/game.  The SD in 116 games is always going to be smaller than 46 games, but lets say it's 0.5 rpg - then the difference is signficant.  What if it's 1.0 rpg?  There is a whole field devoted to determining the statistical significance of numbers like this, and the probability that the difference is true or random.
    2a) Giants score 467 runs w/ BB and 216 w/out BB.  So 683 total.  Over 162 games this should average out to 4.216... but of course, if you split the season into random 116/46 game chunks, it won't work out this way.  They are not evenly distributed.  This is exactly akin to saying the Giants "could have" won 100 games this year without scoring any more runs, had the distribution been better (see Diamondbacks, AZ). Sure they could have it's just not likely

    OK, so we do that and we are sure that the difference is actually significant:

    3) We know how Bonds hit in the games he played.  How did his replacement hit (OBP, SLG)?  How did the rest of the team hit (OBP, SLG)? It might be true that the rest of the team ALSO hit better, but now not the runs are distributed poorly, but the hits were!  

    This should leave you with a couple of hypotheses:

    a) Barry made the rest of the Giants hit worse
    b) Barry made the rest of the Giants less clutch
    c) Hitting for power and getting on base does not help you score runs.
    d) Giants were unlucky when Barry played

    It's obvious to me that a,b, and c are ridiculous.  Anyone have any others?

    And no, I am not going to do the statistics for anyone for <$100/hour.

    Dr. Zenbitz, Ph D.

    by zenbitz on Oct 2, 2007 3:36 PM PDT up reply actions  

    Re: Sabean chat - some interesting tidbits
    Early in the season, the play by play guys remarked on the good offense when Bonds sat out, wow, they said, what a surprise.  Then they stopped talkin about it, I assume because BB was the meal ticket, the marquee, etc.

    Reminds me of how well the Warriors played better, scored better last year without Richardson.  As Nellie said, Jason does what he does but doesn't make the people around him better.  Bonds--even more so.

    adopter/sponsor of "Go, Antoan" Richardson

    by foothillsfan on Oct 2, 2007 1:44 PM PDT reply actions  

    Re: Sabean chat - some interesting tidbits
    But one would think that by getting on base so much, Bonds provides teammates with more opportunities to drive in runs.
    World Series prediction: Cleveland over Chicago in six games. (I guess I'm still Klesko's adoptive pop; they gypsies weren't interested.)

    by Goofus on Oct 2, 2007 1:46 PM PDT up reply actions  

    Re: Sabean chat - some interesting tidbits
    I think a really interestig thing would be to see the individual stats for other players in games Bonds started vs. games he didn't. I think that would begin to give us a rough idea of how to approach dealing with the "anomoly."
    Dave Righetti: You don't know him. / Read My Blog, Because I Write It

    by howtheyscored on Oct 2, 2007 2:02 PM PDT up reply actions  

    Re: Sabean chat - some interesting tidbits
    Don't you know that getting on base that much just clogs up the basepaths?

    /dusty

    by Cleophus on Oct 2, 2007 2:47 PM PDT up reply actions  

    Sorry, this analogy doesn't work
    Baseball is for the most part an individual sport. Basketball is much much more dependent on the team, so much more you really can't compare the two.

    by awesomer @ McCovey Chronicles on Oct 2, 2007 2:12 PM PDT up reply actions  

    Re: Sabean chat - some interesting tidbits
    I think this statistic is pure horse manure.

    There are many explanations for the disparity in run-scoring: opposing pitchers, ballparks, etc.

    Barry sat out day games that followed night games.  The 2007 NL ERA was 4.62 during day games and only 4.34 in night games -- a difference of more then a quarter of a run.  SO clearly teams across the League fared better offensively during games played in daylight.

    This stat and the point it tries to make may be far-fetched, but surely no more far-fetched than believing, even for a second, that this team is better offensively without Bonds.

    Sharlon Schoop: "It's only stealing if you get caught...more than 54% of the time"

    by Woody Wins on Oct 2, 2007 3:47 PM PDT reply actions  

    Re: Sabean chat - some interesting tidbits
    Interesting discussion. I know no one likes mediators, but I think both sides are talking past one another. Statistically, I agree with those that say that there are too many variables to make this a meaningful anomaly. But I think what Goofus and others are saying is that basically it's possible to score the same number of runs or better without Bonds, i.e., there are others ways to manufacture runs than having a Bonds-type player in the middle of your lineup. Sure, Bonds gets on base, but if your 5, 6 hitters (Durham, Molina, Feliz) cannot hit homeruns, it does little good since even a double cannot plate Bonds. And since people batting in front of Bonds are not getting on base consistently, Bonds hits a lot of solo homeruns, thus his low RBIs despite his homeruns. Essentially, what most on this board knows, and what Sabean seems either to overlook or is "playing it close to the vest" is that teams have figured out how to pitch around Bonds so effectively that they have taken his offensive force out of the game. It's like having a Lawrence Taylor against a team who throws only short and screen passes. Might as well have a scrub out there if that's the case and the defense has a chance to have better stats. The fact is, there are holes up and down the lineup no matter how you parse it. That's why in order to fix this lineup without Bonds, we need at least 3 upgrades in the 3,4,5,6th holes in the lineup. Let's say Winn can be an adequate 3rd hitter. That leaves 4, 5, 6. Molina should be a 7th hitter at best but in our pitiful lineup, he is a 4,5,6 hitter. Say for instance, we acquire Nick Johnson to bat 4, sign Mike Lowell to bat 5th, and Nate Schierholtz has a good year batting 6th and they perform to their capabilities. Can this lineup outperform the 2007 lineup with Bonds?

    CF Rajai Davis
    2B Kevin Frandsen
    LF Randy Winn
    1B Nick Johnson
    3B Mike Lowell
    RF Nate Schierholtz
    C  Benji Molina
    SS Omar Vizquel

    Sure, it's definitely possible. All this is to make my simple point that TWO good 4th, 5th hitters are better than ONE cleanup masher. So for instance, even if we get AROD, it's useless unless we get a Lowell to bat behind him as well.  

     

    Uribe to Thompson to Clark: Don't tinker ever with chance

    by tellusfrank on Oct 2, 2007 4:47 PM PDT up reply actions  

    Re: Sabean chat - some interesting tidbits
    I think I harshed a bit on you too much in the other thread...

    I just would hope we get something more like Nick Johnson 2006 than 2007.

    But how would we acquire Nick Johnson?

    by zenbitz on Oct 3, 2007 11:54 AM PDT up reply actions  

    Re: Sabean chat - some interesting tidbits
    Nick Johnson's career may be over.  He had yet to recover from his broken leg and when he does their are no guarantees that he will ever be the same player again.  Trading anything but second or third tier prospects for Nick could be a big mistake.  Counting on anything from Nick would be an even bigger mistake.

    by giantsrainman on Oct 3, 2007 2:44 PM PDT up reply actions  

    Re: Sabean chat - some interesting tidbits
    Then he's a perfect fit, because second and third tier prospects are all the Giants have to offer.
    Fool me seven times, shame on you. Fool me eight or more times, shame on me.

    by Bhaakon on Oct 3, 2007 11:01 PM PDT up reply actions  

    Re: Sabean chat - some interesting tidbits
    We would also need the Nationals to pay all his salary above the major league minimum.  To gamble millions on getting anything from him in 2008 would be just flat ass stupid.

    by giantsrainman on Oct 4, 2007 12:25 AM PDT up reply actions  

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