I have the fear.
by Grant Brisbee on Feb 10, 2006 10:03 AM PST
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PrintIt's Pedro Feliz's turn in the projection rotation, but it's probably more important to address the news in this diary. Mainly, Felipe Alou claiming Jose Vizcaino is the backup plan, should something go awry with Lance Niekro. Gadzooks, my blood turns into a plasma slushie just by typing that. Brrrr.
There's no sense spending a lot of energy railing against a decision that hasn't been made yet, but the mere mention of the idea is egregious. Maybe Alou was just spitting out words without thinking. He might not even remember too much about Vizcaino, but will realize after two spring at-bats how silly a thought it would be to have him start anywhere. This isn't DEFCON 1; this is the leaders of two nuclear powers telling increasingly offensive jokes about the other's mom. Sure, it can escalate quickly, but we're a long way from that.
Thoughts about the quote:
- Niekro has potential, but hasn't been able to string together a whole lot of minor league at-bats due to injury. Due to injury? Due to injury! The guy has a history of being fragile! DEFCON 4! DEFCON 4!
- Sweeney wasn't brought in to be a platoon mate. Okay, whatever, at least he's there when things go wrong. I don't really have a problem testing the waters with Niekro against righties, even if it's just to confirm something we suspect is true. That something is the idea that Niekro hits right-handed pitching as if he were swinging a live narwhal instead of a bat, had three dead narwhals duct taped to his upper torso, and had both of his eyes gouged out by a narwhal in a deep sea bar fight. We pretty much have an educated guess that's the case, but he's young enough to give it one last shot.
- Now I don't want to be one of those ninnies that quote their own archives, but, well, you know, it's cool when I do it. On the day before the Giants signed Vizcaino, I wrote:
When it comes to guys like Sanchez, Clayton, and Vizcaino, I would much rather have Chavez. Felipe Alou would be much less inclined to work Chavez into any given lineup. There is a fear that Alou would see the name of a Clayton-type on the roster, set the mental wayback machine to 1996, and actually start the wretches once a week.If I'm managing the team, I'd choose Vizcaino over Angel Chavez. While the whole veteran stability thing is way overblown, it isn't without a kernel of truth. They both can't hit, but Vizcaino's experience would be enough to give him the nod. If someone drinking the veteran stability-flavored Gatorade is running the team, it's best to keep guys like Vizcaino far, far, far away.
- Pedro Feliz had a really impressive defensive year at third base in 2005, both by statistical measures and anecdotal evidence. So if Niekro struggles, you take Feliz and diminish his limited value by plugging him in at first? For what? To get Jose Vizcaino at-bats over Mark Sweeney? Get out of here. That kind of managing would burn down your Apple II+ if you tried it in MicroLeague Baseball. Rushing Eddy Martinez-Esteve and his wonky first base glove would be preferable to that nightmare, but finding roster space for the Mayor of Norwich would make more sense. There aren't any great ideas if Niekro goes down, but there are better ideas than starting Vizcaino at third.
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Better ideas than vizcaino at third full-time
2.) Cervanek
3.) Frandsen
4.) Dallimore
5.) Matt Williams
6.) Me
7.) EME
8.) Taking up hurling.
9.) Free Malt Liquor Week
10.) Orlando Cepeda, Jim Ray Hart, or Jim Davenport
Feliz if he mostly hits in front of Bonds: .290/.330/.510
Otherwise: .260/.290/.450
Re: I have the fear.
jeez
Re: jeez
Re: jeez
Re: jeez
Seriously, there are too many fans who echo Larry Krueger's sentiments when it comes to Felipe. Skaldheim, if you're not one of them, I apologize.
Re: jeez
I'm not saying he's necessarily a "bad" manager, but I spend a lot more time hoping he doesn't do something stupid than I do wondering what genius move he'll pull out of his ass. Last year the most inspired managerial move of the year came from Ron Wotus, and he only managed 1 game (as opposed to Felipe's 161).
I know he did a great job in Montreal considering what he was given to work with, but that was a much different situation. Playing a seasoned vet like Vizcaino every day over some nervous rookie may add some wins to your total, but playing him over another seasoned vet with a much better bat won't.
But I think the key to this quote is that Felipe -- like Barry -- can never be taken at his word. He says he's going to do things, then doesn't. Or he says he won't do something, then does. Happens all the time. Last year, he said Feliz would be the opening day LF. Then when he heard Lowe was starting for the Dodgers, he said it would be Tucker. Then, when opening day came, it was Feliz. This is merely one example among dozens. He also said Linden would play every day, then benched him a couple of games later. Do you really think he was serious about batting Bonds 2nd? I don't.
The man says what he thinks at any given moment without any real intention of following through. People say he acts old, but I think he acts young, like a child -- one day he's going to be a fireman, the next, an astronaut. By the time Niekro proves he can't hit RHP, Felipe will say Finley is the answer at 1B.
by Josh from Hollywood on Feb 10, 2006 1:25 PM PST up reply actions
Re: jeez
by Grant Brisbee on Feb 10, 2006 1:03 PM PST up reply actions
you can never be too safe
Re: jeez
Skaldheim, welcome to the penalty box
Re: jeez
Re: jeez
Re: I have the fear.
Re: I have the fear.
JKP
by Lyle @ McCovey Chronicles on Feb 13, 2006 6:36 AM PST up reply actions
Re: JKP
by Lyle @ McCovey Chronicles on Feb 13, 2006 6:37 AM PST up reply actions
Re: I have the fear.
Sweeney = LH Pinch Hitter
Niekro = Starting 1B
Feliz = Starting 3B, backup 1B
Vizcaino = Backup SS/2B/3B
Multiple Injuries: Ishikawa/Chavez.
Clearly, there are a couple of flaws here. Left as an exercise to the reader.
The sad part:
Vizcaino Career: .318/.346
L. Niekro Career: .295/.460
That's not even that much of a a drop off. Of course, Niekro age 27... probably manages a .330 OBP or something, which Vizcaino could easily slug .330...
Mark Sweeney: Best non OF hitter on the Giants. Yeah, he should pinch hit...
Can he really not play every (other) day at all?
Re: Apropos of nothing...
btw, I think the idea of Vizcaino playing any position on a regular basis is horrible. Feliz needs to stay a third and bat low in the order; if Neikro tanks Sweeney, or hopefully a trade, should be the obvious answer.
Re: Apropos of nothing...
Yikes....
Re: Yikes....
Perhaps I don't want to know.
Re: Yikes....
Re: Yikes....
by tk on Feb 12, 2006 9:23 AM PST up reply actions
Re: Yikes....
by David A. Arnott on Feb 12, 2006 1:58 PM PST up reply actions
Re: I have the fear.
by Lemaster10 on Feb 10, 2006 1:12 PM PST reply actions
Re: Seriously...
by seyheystretch on Feb 11, 2006 9:06 AM PST up reply actions
Please be upstanding for the mayor of Norwich
Scary, scary, stuff, but I'm going to cling to the woolgathering theory until I'm given a legitimate reason to worry. Meanwhile, I'd love to see Cervenak get a shot. He's my new Dallimore, who was my new Crespo.
Re: Please be upstanding for the mayor of Norwich
Damn. I guess I just did.
by Grant Brisbee on Feb 10, 2006 3:32 PM PST up reply actions
Re: Please be upstanding for the mayor of Norwich
Re: Please be upstanding for the mayor of Norwich
by Martin BiasedGiantsFanatic on Feb 10, 2006 4:32 PM PST up reply actions
Re: I have the fear.
One reason Sabean was willing to give Lance Niekro the job is because
A) there were no options much better in the FA market
B) This years trading market will have lots of 1B. A list that could include:
-Nick Johnson
-Sean Casey
-Dmitri Young
-Shea Hillenbrand
-Craig Wilson
-Aubrey Huff
-Kevin Millar
-Carlos Pena
-Mike Sweeney
-Tony Clark
-Todd Helton
Now, some of those guys won't be, but those are all names that can and will be discussed as trades heat up for those looking for a 1B. Up to Kevin Millar is pretty much a lock to be on the block if their teams fall out of contention.
C) In mid-season we could actually afford to take on some of the bigger salaries (Young, Huff, Casey, Hillenbrand) that we couldn't have earlier. Also, it leaves open a chance that Niekro might actually be a productive player
Re: I have the fear.
I could live with Vizcaino as "the best of the rest that wouldnt cost a pick", but the Giants also signed to him over 1 million dollars, which purplexes me considering BETTER backup infielders were paid LESS money this off-season
by NeifiChicken on Feb 10, 2006 3:15 PM PST up reply actions
The much better option
by David A. Arnott on Feb 10, 2006 3:29 PM PST up reply actions
Re: The much better option
He's actually one of the players who prefers to DH and with his health risks, playing on the field isn't a good idea.
by NeifiChicken on Feb 10, 2006 4:08 PM PST up reply actions
Re: The much better option
But the man can rake. I wish we'd gotten him instead of the waiting-to-accept-the-mantle-of-evil-as-soon-as-LA-drops-into-the -sea Athetics.
Re: I have the fear.
Any theories on why Felipe might not like Sweeney?
Any thoughts?
Theory 1
by David A. Arnott on Feb 10, 2006 4:57 PM PST up reply actions
Re: I have the fear.
I see 48 Walks, 5 HBPs, and 5 Sacrifices Flys yielding 590 ABs. I see 160 Hits, 25 HRs, 35 2Bs, and 5 3Bs. With 213 Times On Base Feliz will score 75 runs amd with 280 Total Bases Pedro will drive in 100 Runs.
The above will result in Pedro's having an OBP of .331 and a SLG of .475 resulting in an OPS of .806.
Re: I have the fear.
by David A. Arnott on Feb 12, 2006 1:50 PM PST up reply actions
Re: I have the fear.
"Mainly, Felipe Alou claiming Jose Vizcaino is the backup plan, should something go awry with Lance Niekro."
What the fuck!!!! Pitchers and Catchers don't report to until wednesday and dipfuck already has contigency plans to fuck things up in if plan A doesn't work.
Here's a solution. The Niners are shit city unless and until eddie de figures a way to get the club back from Deuce Bigelow York. There is no way to unfuck that situation otherwise. Dropping another can of gasoline on that oil derrick fire isn't going to hurt a coddammed thing.
In the meantime, it gets Alou the fuck away from the Giants while there is still time for Barry to a have a resonable hope of winning a championship in a Giants uniform. Everytime Alou opens his mouth he builds upon his reputation as the biggest crackpot manager since Casey Stengal, whose post-Yankee career as a stand-up comic was finally euthanized by the mets in 1965. Aside from age the similarties end. The difference between Alou and Stengal are numerous. Stengal won numerous CHAMPIONSHIPS with the Yankees when the Yankees were talented. Alou has never won shit and never will win shit; with or without talent. The Mets had no talent and Stengal was hired to entertain, not to win with a worthless expansion ballclub composed of dumpster leftovers; Alou was hired to put the Giants over the top after the 2002 season. And Stengal was funny. Alou is only funny in a Captain Queeg-Caine Mutiny kinda way. Stengal was endearing because he enjoyed the comic relief of his antics as much as the fans did. Alou is prickly and defensive and carries grudges; albeit he will get off the occassional wisecrack. He is as endearing as a case of the crabs--funny only if its your buddy and not you that's afflicted. Tony Larussa, who like Alou, overmanages, is prickly and is defensive. But Larussa wins and he wins with similar payroll expenditures and without the best player of the current era. Larussa can be endured because he wins. Alou is beyond endurance and beyond endearment. There is nothing comical nor amusing about him anymore. He is just a stubborn overbearing self-centered loser.
I am going to stay all over this miserable curmudgeon until the Giants send him to wherever it is they send bad experiments--hopefully a rave at Laguna Honda. Having said that, if somehow our guys manage to win a championship despite this pompus leftover, I will offer to kiss his ass at 24 willie mays plaza and give him plenty of time to draw a crowd. i have been a Giants fan since 1958 and I will pull for them long after Alou is gone.
Think of it this way. I pull for the forces on the front lines half-way around the world, but insofar as the dickwads in washington are concerned they can go fuck themselves.
by E Ticket on Feb 12, 2006 7:03 PM PST reply actions
Re: I have the fear.
Hey, btw I didn't know one could say "fuck" in these forums? Damn! I've been missing a lot of fucking opportunities. :)
Re: I have the fear.
You only notice umpires when they blow calls, offensive linemen when they are called for penalties and managers for making a controversial line up change from time to time.
With this nincompoop, we're 3 weeks from spring training games and already he starts up with the bullshit, off-the wall shit like batting bonds second, and running jose v. out there on an everyday basis. He has succeeded as per usual in making himself the center of another fucking unneccessary, unproductive, and unwanted controversy. We are coming up on the fourth year of this bullshitting sack of banalties. I am coddammed stunned he hasn't called for somebody to sign Josh Gibson and Honus Wagner as bench strength.
"I have had all I can stand of this and I am not going to take it anymore."
Fuck this guy. Barry Bonds is on the verge of possibly breaking the greatest of baseball's records and this twaddlescum can't find it in himself to shut the fuck up, get the fuck out of the way, tie himself to the bench til his contract expires or Magowan awakens from his coma, and let the players play when and where even the most casual of fans know where and when they should play.
This is not about me ranting. This has eveything to do with the disaster that he was before he got his sorry ass back into MLB and the disaster that he is now as the Giants skipper. He started losing it in Montreal until he descended into the baseball tomb of MLB as bench coach with Florida. Eventually somebody had the wisdom to put him out to pasture at the Happy Twitch Home for Hasbeens. What possessed Petey Boy to break this guy out of a well earned retirement is a mystery to mere mortals.
We are anticipating the greatest achievement of any player to put on a Giant uniform and already Alou is waxing bi-polar in the media.
What part of "Alou is a stupid fucking meglomaniac shithead with a bigmouth." don't you understand? Does my 4 years of senority make me that much more observant than you? Or should I say "fucking" observant? heh heh.
by E Ticket on Feb 12, 2006 9:37 PM PST up reply actions
Re: I have the fear.
There is another point of view. Last I heard Alou was the skipper of one Giants' playoff team, a team that finished 2 games out, and another that was in contention, in an admittedly weak division, to the last week. The last with huge injury problems and under performance by key parts of his team. Sabean speaks the truth when he takes most of the blame for last year's collapse, especially in the overestimation of his pitching staff. When a manager has those tools to work with he shuffles lineups and tries to get the best out of players who don't have a lot to give. Alou does that better than most. People criticize him for his overuse of the bullpen, but that is more of a question of the recognition of necessity with a starting rotation that is falling apart. The reason he gets paid the big bucks to come up with his "creative" decisions is that most of them work. And most of them have worked over a long period of time with a record that I don't think anyone on these boards can match.
Let's be clear here. I'm not in favor of Vizcaino as a starter, and I don't think anyone else is - including Alou. His idea of a "plan B" isn't one I want to endorse, but then he's also not able to say "we will make a trade for a better player Z on X team if Niekro is a bust." Let's get real and put this into perspective. Part of that perspective is not going on "fucking rants" and blowing up at folks who don't share your level of disgust for the manager. Why not try to calm down and argue your position without the venom?
Re: I have the fear.
I think we're all at least a tad dismayed that Alou didn't just say, "Niekro is our starter at 1st against lefties and righties. We have a lot of confidence in the young man, but if he doesn't pan out vs righties, Sweeney is a proven professional hitter, so we're in good shape."
Re: I have the fear.
Actually, that's why I started Waiting for Boof. Dumbass.
by Grant Brisbee on Feb 13, 2006 10:04 AM PST up reply actions
Re: I have the fear.
Re: I have the fear.
"WE DON'T NEED TO FIND ANY WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION! WE JUST NEED TO WANT TO FIND THEM! THAT'S THE WAY IT WORKS!"
"I VOTED FOR NADER! I HATE EVERYONE!"
See, children, this is what the Hot Stove is all about. (And yes, I know the link should go in the link dump, but it applies here.)
by David A. Arnott on Feb 13, 2006 12:10 PM PST up reply actions
Re: I have the fear.
- Alou has a long long track record of "creative moves". He has never won a pennant and there is nothing in his track record to indicate that is going to change
- Alou won the division with an inherited team. A team "which I thought we should have been able to build upon." to quote Dave Righetti last season. The clubhouse crackup started during the 03 season and became visible to the naked eye in the playoffs with Snow getting rung up at home plate. That the Padroxogerbacks were long gone by June 1 served to minimize the impact of the Baker sacking.
- During the ridiculous blow up caused by an insipid little dweeb at a radio station, he managed to pour gasoline on a fire where there was only smoke. If the scurrilous blurbs had come from a Selig, or somebody with true power that mattered, I would be all over Alou for saying too little. I want my sports guys to be Jackie Robinson and larger than life, not small and petty; and in the process granting power to unthinking schmoes like Larry Krueger. There is still bitter fall-out. It lurks in the background of every discussion of the Giants as evidenced by your wrong interpretation of "quotas" in this thread.
- His public statements and on-field machinations are an incoherent distraction at best. They are divisive and demoralizing at worst.
An organization with a marginal roster can and does from time to time win championships if everything goes just right. There is nothing we can do about the phony controversy that follows Barry. But the relentlessness of it has to have even at some minute level an effect on the rest of team over a long 6 month season. A team can manage to win with one controversy. A team can and should use it as a rallying point. And nobody can reasonably suggest that eliminating Bonds is a way to resolve that controversy. Not even Alou is that "creative".
The introduction of a second and unrelated controversial and highly visible personality like Alou is simply too much for a marginal team to succeed in its quest for the ultimate prize...one that has eluded us for 48 seasons I might remind. Even the notorious Yankee teams under Billy Martin/King George could only accomplish so much after awhile. And I would think that we are eminently more civilized than New York.
My point is simply this. Alou has created, or at least contributed to an aura of negativity that swirls around what should be, and could be the Camelot of baseball franchises in the last few years. He is an added distraction. A controversial spokesman for the Giants. Fans are divided, and the clubhouse is divided, protestations to the contrary. The clock is ticking on this aging group of baseball cards.
You make a very good point referencing Sabaen's mea culpa which actually goes to further my point. The GM should and does have more influence over a team's success by providing the players. The manager's job is to keep the players all on the same page on a daily basis over the course of a very tiring and grueling season. Particularly the way Giatns rosters have been constructed in the Sabaen era. That is the primary function of a field manager. To keep all the players on the same page all of the time. It does no good for a manager to succeed for 5 months out of the 6 month season. That gets you a passing grade on your drivers license exam, but flunks you out of a pennant race. His antics are not designed to do this. His antics are about promoting himself and his decision making. They are transparently "look at me" in nature. How does this keep guys on the same page? How does this win us a pennant?
It doesn't.
by E Ticket on Feb 13, 2006 11:10 AM PST up reply actions
Re: I have the fear.
Perhaps Alou is either having a laugh at our expense or just saying something goofy to get people talking about that instead of talk that puts pressure on young guys. After the health of the veterans, most talk seems to be around whether Niekro and Hennessy are up to the task of of 1B and #5 SP.
The press often credits managers and coaches when they're able to say something that deflects pressure from their players. Whether Felipe is that clever, I don't know.
Re: I have the fear.
Let me address your main point. I think you overestimate the "controversy" surrounding Alou's statements and their effect on the team. This team isn't demoralized by Alou's statements. This team is demoralized, by the revelation that, without Barry in the lineup, it was exposed as a very mediocre team. Now the addition of Morris will go a long way to making the rotation into something respectable, but the club from the starting eight to the bullpen and bench have a lot to prove. That is the real controversy surrounding the Giants, not Alou's comments in January and early February. This is all the media has to write about now, but in two weeks it will be forgotten.
My take on Alou is that he is a master "tinkerer," as in he tinkers with things until he finds what works. Unlike Dusty, he doesn't stay with folks too long (at least as long) when it is obvious they aren't working out. His attempts to find a closer the last two seasons are examples of this. With Dusty, I think we still might be trying out Matt "Fucking" Herges (yes, I think that's his middle name.)
Felipe is also not afraid of giving voice to ideas that are outside the box. His recent statement about Bonds batting second is a great example of this. I think it is a bad idea, given the fact Barry doesn't need any further distraction in his comeback, but it is also something that is not without merit. Bonds is going to be in fewer games and in fewer games late in the game. It makes sense to wonder if getting him more at bats by moving him up in the order would help. Alou's not afraid to try anything that will help, including going against the wishes of the best hitter in the game. While you see this as craziness, I see it as a strength - even when I disagree with his ideas.
I also think it is at least worth noting that while the media is writing about Felipe's latest idea they aren't yet writing about the weakness of this team. That is not necessarily an unrelated turn of events. Last year's World Series champs had, and still have, a manager who also tried to take some of the heat off his players through his talks with the media. It seemed to work out well. Sometimes you just have to feed the beast.
One quick thing about Krueger and his statements. I liked Alou's response. It's not a small thing when racism raises it's ugly head - in sports or in our broader society. I like the fact he placed the blame where it should be; in the hands of station management, not just on Krueger himself. Somethings rise above the game and this qualified. Let's also be clear, I'm not accusing anyone here of racism. The statement around "quotas" seemed to be an allusion to something to me, but I've apologized to the poster for my misunderstanding.
Now, will Alou lead this Giants team to the promised land? I don't know, but the doubts I have center more around the young players in the rotation, at first base, and the health of veterans than around Felipe's competency. He's a winning manager, with a track record that includes many laudable achievements to go along with the absence of the brass ring. My point is simply this, keep all of that in mind in evaluating Alou rather than reduce him to a colorful and inventive obscenity.
Re: I have the fear.
I write the way I talk when I vent, rant and bluster. Picture Sam Kinnison or George Carlin going off on somebody during one of their routines. That's what it sounds like, so I've been told. And for the most part its pretty funny. Its mostly for entertainment purposes. Sports is the amusement park of life.
I've been around too many coaches over the years that are just like Alou, so its pretty easy for me to jump his ass. he is an easy target...too easy sometimes. (actually the guy has a very wry sense of humor, but you didn't hear it from me).
In the meantime...go fuck yourself. (just kidding :D)
by E Ticket on Feb 13, 2006 7:41 PM PST reply actions
Re: I have the fear.
Oh and fuck you very much! ... just kidding as well.
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