Navigation: Jump to content areas:


Pro Quality. Fan Perspective.
Login-facebook
Around SBN: 7 Important Questions About The Heat Vs. Celtics Series

Barry Zito and the Last Chance Saloon

Less than 2 weeks til Pitchers and Catchers. So let's talk about 5th starters. Barry Zito is down to his last 2 years on his contract, plus a nice little bonus buyout coming. 19MM, 20MM in 2013 and 7MM to go away. 46MM isn't a lot if you say it fast, to badly paraphrase Willie Nelson. The Giants have decided to cling to the idea ZIto is a viable fifth starter, and are bunkering down to play it out. I got some other options the Giants might want to check out after the jump.


Star-divide

The first thing usually mentioned with ZIto last year was his velocity. Instead of sitting up in the 86-88 range, he was down in the 82-84 range. His 2009 fastball velocity avg (fangraphs) was 86.5. Last year it was 83.8. He has to get that velocity back or he's toast. He can't sling 83 mph slop.

The second thing that sometimes gets forgotten about is his car accident. Although he appeared to be OK physically, it might have taken its toll on an already fragile ego. He's always looked like a mental midget to me, being put in a life flashes before your eyes situation is some rough stuff. No idea if it did have any impact.

The third limiting factor for Zito last year was taking the comebacker off his foot. He was immediately shelved, and put on the slow road back, it is unclear whether this was a necessity or a easy excuse by the Giants to keep him shelved. It's easy to forget but his first 3 starts back he went 21 innings, gave up 3 ERS (on 2 HRS) and got the Giants 3 wins, before the wheels came off. Could the foot injury have messed with his velocity?

Zito's other big problem has always been a combination of not being able to knuckledown and fight hitters, spot his pitches and not give in. Yet another problem now is he seems to have no idea where the ball is going. So he serves up some batting practice (HR/9 ratio of 1.68 last year compared to career average of 0.96).

Still, his 2nd half of 2009 and first half of 2010 were not bad at all. In 2009 2nd half he held opponents to 239/321/679 with a 2.00 K/BB, 2.83 ERA and 1.291 WHIP. His first half of 2010 continued that to a lesser degree, 249/325/697 with a 1.76 K/BB, 3.76 ERA and 1.313 WHIP. Then the wheels came off. If he can get back to a league average pitcher, that would be a good thing. That year stretch of 2nd half 09/first half 10 would be incredible. It's a tall order though. And we haven't seen any PR Puff pieces this year about long toss with Wilson across canyons or anything like that. Apparently he is working hard with a pitching coach on the velocity, and famously got married and settled down.

My personal prediction is he won't get the velocity back, the Giants will make up an injury or seize on some excuse to put him down in Fresno (maybe to learn a knuckleball), and they'll go to their alternative plan(s). This seems to be a combination of stubbornly not wanting to cut their losses, due to Zito's good solder/nice guy status and the hope he can come back and be league average.

So we root for league average, with a healthy dose of that hope like hell stuff Sabey Sabes throws down. The Giants theme really should be Hope Like Hell instead of this Stay Together BS.

BUT WAIT... There is still almost 2 weeks til pitchers and catchers! They can still do something to shore up their plans! First off, coming off the success of Ryan Vogelsong, Sabey Sabes has scouts combing the globe for ex-draft picks, so far the Gints have welcomed back Boof Bonser (TJ surgery, won't start throwing til mid-season) and Brian Burres to minor league deals. Then they went out and gave Clay Hensley a conditional MLB deal. And lets not forget about Eric Hacker, even if he's most likely AAA fill in.

In addition to all these retreads, the most likely fill in is young Eric Surkamp, who was less than impressive with his BB/K's among other things in his MLB debut. I think he needs seasoning, but also shouldn't be judged too harshly for his first go-round either. Nerves could have contributed a lot to his curve not being thrown much, and his arm might have been a little tired from the minor league campaign as well. Surkamp is definitely the first line of defense and most likely the best candidate.

So unlikely its almost not worth bringing up, but Roy Oswalt is still out there. It'd be the baller move, to break into that RDF with a quick line-item slash, but its most likely not happening.

The next best thing might be oft-injured Cannuck Richie Rich Harden. One of these years he'll stay healthy right? Right? Lot of Oakland A's stink on that one though.

Other injured pitchers include Jon Garland (pass), twice rotator cuff surgeried Brandon Webb who is starting his pitching program soon and shelled in the DR winter league Scott Kazmir (hmmmm). And tall guy Chris Young, also a walking injury. And Javy Vasquez, who isn't coming near the west coast. With Brad Penny going to Japan that is basically the run of the SPs on the market still.

Quick poll: what should the Giants do with Barry Zito, and are there any guys worth taking a shot on before the Last Chance Saloon?

As an aside, I would have taken this lefty money everybody is up in arms about and sign up Paul Maholm. Perfect 5th starter, a lefty to balance our rotation, and the Cubs got him nice and cheap. 2/10

Maybe this is the year Zito lets all of it go and just pitches. The fan expectations, the contract expectations, the Boras Binder expectations. Maybe he can just block it all out, he's 35 years old and rich as hell. Contract is almost over, its been a bad beat for the G's. Maybe he can block it out and just pursue his dreams, just a dude and his Bentley. I doubt it, but I'd also love it. The BrainTrust aren't giving us many options on this one. And yeah, I think its the mistake of the offseason, assuming Matt Cain will get locked up no problem of course.

Poll
Should the Giants make any more Barry Zito insurance moves in the last 2 weeks of the offseason?
No, Barry Zito is our 5th Starter. Pass the avocado frittata, stat!
56 votes
Step up, be ballers RDF Crew, go get Oswalt!
31 votes
Simmer down, we got Woody 2 right here, come on Surkkkkkamp!
32 votes
Brandon Webb has a Cy Young, there's gotta be something left.
6 votes
Scott Kazmir just needs some tweaks from the pitching whisperers, and we're just the guys to do it.
12 votes
Oh Canada! RIch Harden will kill it, and drive them A's fans nuts doing it.
12 votes
Finally, just wait for Boof. It'll be worth it. Nothing like Sabey Sabes going back to the well.
15 votes

164 votes | Poll has closed

This FanPost is reader-generated, and it does not necessarily reflect the views of McCovey Chronicles. If the author uses filler to achieve the minimum word requirement, a moderator may edit the FanPost for his or her own amusement.

Comment 33 comments  |  0 recs  | 

Do you like this story?

Comments

Display:

LOL 1st vote.

Zito is the number 5 guy. Anyone that may usurp him has to be Surkamp, who probably is better than he showed last year, but still might need some AAA time before he contributes every 5th day. The only other options the Giants will entertain is a ST invite.

Ross on Halladay: "I’d tried everything against him…going the other way, taking pitches, trying to walk…and nothing worked. I’d never tried going up there and just trying to hit a home run off him."
My boy has mad hops
I rant on Twitter

by scout6 on Feb 6, 2012 2:47 PM PST reply actions  

Oswalt

Dearest, Susan - The Patron Saint of Patience
Azmanz Bet: 1st HoF: Clemens > Bonds

by Lars The Wanderer on Feb 6, 2012 2:55 PM PST reply actions  

Apparently he wants to stay close to Texas.

A man who carries a cat by the tail learns something he can learn in no other way. - SLC

by mhad on Feb 7, 2012 7:05 AM PST up reply actions  

I think every option should get one vote and then we just stop voting. Seriously though, the Giants will allow Zeets to eat as many innings as he can. They really want to get some ROI. As a side note, Oswalt was my vote

I'm a Giants Fan, but I'll always be rooting for Matt Downs
Adopted Son:Dan Burkhart , Future Backup To Buster Posey.

by nvsfg on Feb 6, 2012 2:57 PM PST reply actions  

You’re not the boss of my poll!

I agree, the Giants will try and squeeze as much out of him as possible. But I also think they won’t tolerate really bad pitching either, so they’ll make some sort of move if he’s as bad as last year.

by shankbone on Feb 6, 2012 3:04 PM PST up reply actions  

I so hope you are correct.

I'm a Giants Fan, but I'll always be rooting for Matt Downs
Adopted Son:Dan Burkhart , Future Backup To Buster Posey.

by nvsfg on Feb 6, 2012 3:11 PM PST up reply actions  

Can't wait until mid-season

The team is floating around the fringe of contention, the offense is still godawful, and the Giants trade for a fifth fucking starter to replace Zito.

I can see Sabean’s quote now, “We kicked the tires on a few professional hitters, but, at the end up the day, you can never have enough pitching.”

VAE PVTO DEVS FIO

by Bhaakon on Feb 6, 2012 4:08 PM PST up reply actions  

Harden was my vote. Stash him in the pen until Zito’s phantom injury and hope like hell that he (Harden) can keep his arm attached for a dozen starts or so.

I’d prefer Oswalt but I think Harden will be much, much cheaper.

Is it February 19 yet?

by j14 on Feb 6, 2012 4:54 PM PST up reply actions  

To be fair..I hovered over that selection before choosing Oswalt. I decided to vote head instead of heart just this one time.

I'm a Giants Fan, but I'll always be rooting for Matt Downs
Adopted Son:Dan Burkhart , Future Backup To Buster Posey.

by nvsfg on Feb 6, 2012 3:37 PM PST up reply actions  

Usually, I don’t put much weight on ST performance, but in Zito’s case…I think the coaches will know quite quickly whether there’s enough velocity back or not. And we are talking about a 5th starter, not an ace (even though he’s paid like one). So it’s not a crucial situation.

I'm working my way to grumpy old curmudgeon status with all the grace I can muster.

by pygalgia on Feb 6, 2012 6:57 PM PST reply actions  

I'm pretty sure I know the answer to this, but...

what happens with the option if we released him? I know we’d have to pay the rest of his guaranteed contract, but would we have to pay the buyout regardless? And if someone picked him up and for some unforeseen reason thought it’d be a good idea to pick up the option, would we have to pay that as well?

by omgimbrian on Feb 6, 2012 7:25 PM PST reply actions  

If we release him early, yes we still pay the $7m buyout.

Whether he gets picked up or not after we release him early, we’re not responsible for any more than the next two years and the buyout – if another team wants to pay him to play for them, that’s their business.

by DiggingForFire on Feb 7, 2012 2:33 AM PST up reply actions  

I thought this was about the Last Chance Saloon in SF. I feel deceived.

by Mrbasepaul on Feb 6, 2012 8:06 PM PST reply actions  

That would be beyond awesome. Who is this Justin Christian guy? Give me that damn number back already! Now let me show you yoots how to wear a baseball hat, this no bend the rim thing is out of control.

Still get sad about Lowry. Man could pitch a little and wore a lid like nobodies business.

by shankbone on Feb 7, 2012 7:36 AM PST up reply actions  

I gotta wonder if Brad Pitt just threw that in

Someone’s gotta have a copy of the script.

"Your curses do not compare to those of Houston fans or Detroit fans, and especially not to those of fans from the northside of Chicago. You are not Hamlet. You are Valerie Bertinelli. Your victim act is schlocky, and totally unconvincing. You fancy yourself tormented. You are merely insecure."
-- Scott Burton to Red Sox fans, 6/12/02
http://espn.go.com/magazine/burton_20020612.html

by achiappanza on Feb 13, 2012 12:21 AM PST up reply actions  

Brad Pitt is dreamy.

If it bothers people that much I’ll cut it out. Cracks me up personally.

by shankbone on Feb 13, 2012 7:19 AM PST up reply actions  

More importantly, he's funny

I like a sensahumma in the fellas.

"Your curses do not compare to those of Houston fans or Detroit fans, and especially not to those of fans from the northside of Chicago. You are not Hamlet. You are Valerie Bertinelli. Your victim act is schlocky, and totally unconvincing. You fancy yourself tormented. You are merely insecure."
-- Scott Burton to Red Sox fans, 6/12/02
http://espn.go.com/magazine/burton_20020612.html

by achiappanza on Feb 13, 2012 8:17 AM PST up reply actions  

I'm a lefty

and I throw 86 at the moment. Zito needs to get his shit together. Maybe more eggs and less avocado. Longer canyons instead of looking for deeper canyons to throw across.

Honorary parent of Duane Kuiper, beloved solar powered broadcaster and power hitting coach for the Giants.

by Giant Voodoo on Feb 7, 2012 1:05 AM PST reply actions  

So the fifth-starter depth chart goes something like

Zito
Surkamp
Runzler?
Burres?

Anybody else? Did we sign Yusmeiro Petit or did I imagine that? I’d expect him to be tolerably good.

It’s a weak group, but I’d still rather spend any leftover assets on a hitter.

by Evan on Feb 7, 2012 6:36 AM PST reply actions  

Good call on Petit. We did indeed sign him. His career HR/9 in the majors is a nice round 2.0. He was also Pre-2005: Rated #46 Prospect Pre-2006: Rated #69 Prospect by BA. Petit is young enough to be interesting but his stats post 2006 are really grim, both MLB and the various minor league stops.

Indeed that looks like the depth chart. Justin Fitzgerald would be the first “let’s throw a rookie to the wolves” desperation call from AAA if the stars lined up I think. They’ll have Burres and Fitz to check out in Fresno. Will Runzler join them?

by shankbone on Feb 7, 2012 7:33 AM PST up reply actions  

Petit’s career K/W numbers are quite decent — about the same as Vogelsong’s last year. But he’s had two problems: He can’t keep the ball in the park, and he can’t keep baserunners from scoring. Even in AAA. He might make a great test subject for the Righetti Effect.

by Evan on Feb 7, 2012 9:45 AM PST up reply actions  

HRs not that common in the Big Phone, which could help Petit.
I could see him eating a few innings when Zito needs a rest to re build stamina. Well, he used to have stamina that would rebuild.
Petit, not a great baseball name. But there was a basketball player who did OK with it, ironically.

Marvin Barrios, come on I'll show you your bedroom. Don't stay on the phone too long to Panama, please.

by foothillsfan on Feb 7, 2012 11:03 AM PST up reply actions  

And some lefty from Texas.

I’m all for the Righetti Effect. Could be a very nice source of cheap arms if the Giants can build on their reputation with redemption projects. As its hard to recruit bats in FA to the Big Phone, maybe you just have to go with arms instead and not bang your head against the wall, overspend, etc.

by shankbone on Feb 7, 2012 11:50 AM PST up reply actions  

I say they pick up the 2014 option now and find out just how deep the rabbit-hole goes.

Will his uniform number be greater than his velocity? I believe! Let’s do this!

Barry and the Race to 73, the sequel!

11 01 10
Veni Vidi Vixi

by WhereThere'sAWillieThere'sAMays on Feb 7, 2012 8:05 AM PST reply actions  

I’m surprised by how many people are ready to write Zito off entirely. He was an average pitcher in 2009 and 2010. Yes his 2011 was awful, but it was only 9 starts and he was constantly hurt or recovering. His velocity may come back. If not, well, Livan Hernandez had an even slower fastball last year, and he was reasonably effective. We’re stuck with the tab either way, but it’d be several million on top of his $46m to try to replace him. Give him a shot, if with a short leash.

by Monkeyking42 on Feb 7, 2012 11:36 AM PST reply actions  

I’m surprised by how many people are ready to write Zito off entirely

Watching him pitch will do that to you. There’s a reason he was left off the 2010 postseason roster.

  1. was the end of my Zito rope, and I’m probably not the only one who abandoned ship.

The Dude: Oh boy. How ya gonna keep 'em down on the farm once they've seen Karl Hungus.

by slapsy on Feb 7, 2012 10:49 PM PST up reply actions  

Whoops
#161 was the end of my Zito rope, and I’m probably not the only one who abandoned ship.

The Dude: Oh boy. How ya gonna keep 'em down on the farm once they've seen Karl Hungus.

by slapsy on Feb 7, 2012 10:50 PM PST up reply actions  

Being left off the 2010 postseason roster isn't really that good an argument against him

At least, there are much better ones. Going to a four-man rotation in the postseason (like every team does) means Zito wasn’t going to start, and his supposed issues out of the ‘pen and the long-relief role being filled by Mota and Affeldt meant there wasn’t a spot for him. But during the regular season neither of those guys could be the 5th starter (well, I actually wouldn’t be surprised to find out Mota could throw 4 IP every five days and post a 4.50 ERA), and we need one of those.

Zito wasn’t a fit for the postseason roster because he represents a 5th starter who “can’t” come out of the bullpen. But regular season roster are not postseason rosters.

Last season was quite disheartening enough, though. Unless he shows up to camp consistently throwing at least 86 MPH I don’t think he’ll have enough fastball to survive. His fastball right now is about the same speed as R.A. Dickey’s, and Dickey is a knuckleballer.

Seth Rosin can hit the side of a barn with a baseball. From space.
Giants baseball: We're stupid enough to WIN that (TM)

by quincy0191 on Feb 7, 2012 11:33 PM PST up reply actions  

His velocity may come back. If not, well, Livan Hernandez had an even slower fastball last year, and he was reasonably effective.

The problem is that Livan Hernandez is not Barry Zito. Barry Zito has never been effective low-80s fastball, and there isn’t really a reason to think that will change.

Livan Hernandez has the junk to manage that. Barry Zito doesn’t.

Once more, coming to you by proxy.

by howtheyscored on Feb 11, 2012 10:25 AM PST up reply actions  

Comments For This Post Are Closed


User Tools

Welcome to the SB Nation blog about San Francisco Giants.
Yahoo_full_count

Manager

174246766_ea2fd78204_small Grant Brisbee

Moderators

Sbzito_small Natto

Fawlty_small WalrusMan

Goofus_small Goofus

Howtheyscoredcat_small howtheyscored

Det_7193_small jponry

Authors

09_small JT Jordan

Small steve S

E6dmccicon_small Every6thDay