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Around SBN: NFL Safety Ryan Clark's Motivational Workout

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…and we couldn’t wait that long.

Why?

VAE PVTO DEVS FIO

by Bhaakon on Feb 4, 2012 1:19 AM PST reply actions  

It’s pretty obvious that the Aubrey Huff deal cost us any shot at Carlos Beltran. They’re not going to pay Beltran 13 million and Aubrey 11 to rot on the bench. Sabean needs those Pilates to work more than Huff does!

Proud owner of over 20,000 comments. (most of them in the wrong place) Oh yeah, and Buster Posey

by rxmeister on Feb 4, 2012 8:10 AM PST reply actions  

I'd argue Rowand cost us any shot at Beltran more than Huff

Bold Prediction: Pablo Sandoval finishes 1st or 2nd in 2012 NL MVP voting. I'm Twittering now (well maybe not literally now): @GoofusMcP

by Goofus on Feb 6, 2012 8:48 AM PST up reply actions   1 recs

I'm actually pretty okay with that explanation

Sounds just as much like they didn’t want to go to 2/26 as they couldn’t go there. I can see how the uncertainty with Wilson could help the Lopez/Affeldt deals as well.

Seth Rosin can hit the side of a barn with a baseball. From space.
Giants baseball: We're stupid enough to WIN that (TM)

by quincy0191 on Feb 4, 2012 12:31 PM PST reply actions  

At the beginning of this offseason, I had three criteria for success for Sabean:

  • Resign Beltran (or obtain a similar impact bat)
  • Sign Cain and Lincecum to long-term deals
  • All the piddling shit a team’s gotta do to get minimally replacement-level players at each position

So far, he’s done only the last. I’d call it more of a failure of an offseason than a success.

Also, he says a lot of dumb things in that quote.

  • “we weren’t going to go to what the Cardinals went to money-wise” – the Cardinals signed Beltran for eminently reasonable, in-this-market-cheap amount. He makes it sound like 4y/$60m or something.
  • “And not knowing if Willie was going to be at full stretnth at the beginning of the year, how could we weaken that bullpen?” – Wilson is one of the most overpaid and replaceable players on the Giants roster
  • “Quite frankly, in our league, in our division, no matter how many runs you score, you’re going to be in one- and two-run games.” – Well, the way to be in fewer of those nailbiter games is to score more runs and put the game away early. You know, like with a Carlos Beltran in your lineup.
  • “We didn’t think (Dan) Runzler was ready to take over for one of them. " – Sabean has over the years, to his credit, put together great bullpens, largely by dumpster diving/no-name guys coming up through the system. As good as the pen has been the last couple years, there is no reason to consider them an Olympic Pantheon That Must Not Be Altered.
  • “we were exploring trade options, the (Jonathan)Sanchez/(Melky)Cabrera " – I’d be happier having Beltran over Cabrera, and Sanchez as insurance in case Zito or Vogelsong implode (or one of Bumcaincicum gets injured)
  • "The problem was, if he became the left fielder, we still had (Aubrey) Huff under contract. We still had (Brandon) Belt, who perhaps makes the team as the first baseman. In doing so, can you really juggle all that?" – So he obtains Melky Cabrera, which create the exact same “logjam”.

Also, the answer is easy. Nate in right, Pagan in center, Beltran in left, Belt at first, Huff as backup (move Beltran to right and play Huff or Belt in left on Nate’s days off). (I’d also go for signing Cody Ross as CF/OF backup, but, hey, it’s all money Sabean already said he didn’t have).

  • “at the end of the day”, “kick the tires”, etc

SF Giants' record in the eleven-year twenty-first century/Pac Bell era: five MVPs, two CYA, one ROY, the two highest single-season OPS of all time (and two of the other top eight), the single-season and all-time HR records, two NL Pennants, and ... one World Championship

by SnowLeopard on Feb 4, 2012 5:05 PM PST reply actions  

Regarding the quotes

1. Yeah, I’ll give you that. But I’m not so convinced Beltran is or would have been the savior of the offense – let’s remember the kind of years he had in 2009 and 2010. Even last year he got hurt. For what the Cardinals offered him, I really hope he was just trying to placate the fanbase because saying “we offered him that much or more and he just didn’t take it” doesn’t sound as good.

2. True…ish. Wilson is probably overpaid, but not really easily replaceable. I think Romo would make a great closer, but then who replaces Romo? Wilson is either our best or second-best reliever. Because relievers (particularly closers) are overvalued, trading him would be a good idea, but I wouldn’t expect his replacement to do as well as he has. Hembree’s probably got a shot, but I wouldn’t count on it.

3. He shouldn’t have added “no matter how many runs you score” but as AT&T, Dodger Stadium, and Petco are all pitcher’s parks, and given the quality of both starting and relief pitching on these teams, it would be very difficult for us to be in fewer close games. We’d have to drastically remake the offense, something that just wasn’t going to happen, and have a lot of guys end up with great seasons.

4. I trust Sabean on this. Like you said, he’s put together some pretty great bullpens. If Runzler’s not ready, he’s not ready.

5. Beltran+Sanchez-Cabrera adds a lot of salary. We couldn’t have afforded it. Sanchez at nearly $5M out of the pen is also a waste of money – at least Affeldt and Lopez have been pretty good. Sanchez gets most of his value from having the stuff to get through a lineup two or three times.

6. I think they believe in Cabrera’s ability to play CF/RF more than Beltran’s. They look at Beltran as a LF, while Cabrera can play any of those positions. That’s not a ridiculous position. I don’t agree that it makes Beltran not work for us though – if Beltran, Huff, and Belt are all hitting, they could play Beltran in RF and whoever’s playing RF in that scenario (presumably Nate) can take center. Nate should be able to play CF without any problems – I don’t know why it hasn’t been tried (though I guess it’s because he’s just that much better in RF).

Seth Rosin can hit the side of a barn with a baseball. From space.
Giants baseball: We're stupid enough to WIN that (TM)

by quincy0191 on Feb 5, 2012 1:20 AM PST up reply actions  

Good points. Thank you for engaging my post.

To reply:

1. I think that in baseball, like much of the rest of life, one makes the best plans one can, and then things turn out as they do. It’s true, as you say, especially because of his injury-propensity and age, Beltran may or may not be much of an offensive force in 2012. That said, I would take the bet that he will be worth more oWAR than Huff, Nate, Pagan, Belt, or Cabrera will (I would take any one of the five one-on-one bets – not a one-on-five bet).

2. Agreed that Wilson will probably have quite a bit of value to the team. It’s not that I don’t think he has actual value – clearly, he does. But I doubt, with his declining velocity, that it will be $8.5m worth. His [actual value / perceived value] and [actual value / salary] are lower than many other Giants.

Also, FWIW, BRef had Wilson at 1.0 WAR last year, and Affeldt, Casilla, Lopez, Ramirez, and Romo averaging 1.3 WAR. (Granted, Wilson had two pretty great years before that in 09 and 10).

3/4. Yeah, a strong bullpen is always a good thing. It’s my belief however that the best way to win games, close or otherwise, is to have the best team possible. And the difference between Beltran and whoever he would be taking outfield playing time from, relative to the difference between some of the current bullpen guys and whoever could/would replace them – it is my guess that the former difference makes the team stronger than the latter.

5. I don’t know. Sometimes mediocre starting pitchers make for dominant relievers (Gagne, Isringhausen, Joe Nathan, Rollie Fingers, John Wetteland, Rick Aguilera, Jeff Shaw, Tom Gordon, etc). Maybe Sanchez would have been one of those guys whose raw stuff translates better to an inning every third game, rather than five innings every fifth game.

Also, Cabrera’s $6m 2012 salary will be higher than Sanchez’ $5.6m.

6. The Cardinals reportedly plan to play Beltran some in CF. Agreed with you though – the Giants seem to feel that Cabrera is more able in CF and RF, and I am inclined to agree.

And definitely agree with you with thinking that Nate should hypothetically be able to handle CF, wondering why it hasn’t ever been experimented with.

SF Giants' record in the eleven-year twenty-first century/Pac Bell era: five MVPs, two CYA, one ROY, the two highest single-season OPS of all time (and two of the other top eight), the single-season and all-time HR records, two NL Pennants, and ... one World Championship

by SnowLeopard on Feb 6, 2012 1:27 PM PST up reply actions  

One thought
Maybe Sanchez would have been one of those guys whose raw stuff translates better to an inning every third game, rather than five innings every fifth game.

I think his off-again, on-again, off-again relationship with control would prevent him from ever being trusted in high-leverage situations. Managers like having confidence that guy their putting into the game isn’t gonna walk the bases loaded.

Bold Prediction: Pablo Sandoval finishes 1st or 2nd in 2012 NL MVP voting. I'm Twittering now (well maybe not literally now): @GoofusMcP

by Goofus on Feb 6, 2012 2:59 PM PST up reply actions  

A fair point.

That assumes however that he would keep 5 bb/9 ip-ing. I see it as possible however that he would focus more if assigned shorter stints. Or perhaps his arm fatigue patterns would be different, and he wouldn’t overthrow/underthrow/trend left/whatever it is he does when he misses his spots.

Not saying that Sanchez being an more effective reliever than starter is definite, or even likely. But I think that it is possible.

SF Giants' record in the eleven-year twenty-first century/Pac Bell era: five MVPs, two CYA, one ROY, the two highest single-season OPS of all time (and two of the other top eight), the single-season and all-time HR records, two NL Pennants, and ... one World Championship

by SnowLeopard on Feb 6, 2012 3:19 PM PST up reply actions  

"at the end of the day", "kick the tires", etc

And a new one “gut-check-time”

[Poorly Wrought THING] is what Brian Sabean would have made if he were a [THING-maker] instead of a MLB GM

by zenbitz on Feb 4, 2012 9:36 PM PST reply actions  

still doesn't make sense to me

First, I don’t understand the Beltran must play LF part. Certainly the defense would be a lot better with Beltran in LF and Nate or Cabrera in RF, but I don’t think its fair to say Beltran could never have slid over to RF. I’ll be fairly surprised if Belt doesn’t begin the year in Fresno so the argument that they needed to make room for him seems a bit disingenuous. And even assuming the team plays about 12-13 games every two weeks I don’t see why the playing time couldn’t have been broken down something like this:
1B-Belt (9/13) Huff (3/13) Posey (1/13)
LF-Beltran (7/13) Huff (6/13)
CF- Pagan (9/13) Cabrera (4/13)
RF-Schierholtz (6/13) Beltran (4/13) Cabrera (3/13)
And all of that is assuming Huff would’ve been impossible to move via trade. I’m not saying there would’ve been much interest in him but a swap for another bad contract like Chone Figgins actually would’ve cleared some 2012 money to help offset the cost of Beltran and also saved another small bit of money by filling Theriot’s role on the team. Having to pay Figgins next year hurts but with other money coming off the books it doesn’t seem too bad. Seattle isn’t likely to be able to clear that much of Figgins’ contract and acquire a bat as potentially strong as Huff’s in any other deal.

Thing A

by sam23 on Feb 4, 2012 10:12 PM PST reply actions  

Huff was a disaster in the outfield last year.

As much as I’d like to see Belt installed at 1B and not messed with, I’d rather see Huff 1B / Belt LF than the reverse.

SF Giants' record in the eleven-year twenty-first century/Pac Bell era: five MVPs, two CYA, one ROY, the two highest single-season OPS of all time (and two of the other top eight), the single-season and all-time HR records, two NL Pennants, and ... one World Championship

by SnowLeopard on Feb 4, 2012 11:18 PM PST up reply actions  

Completely agree

Belt has speed and an arm (remember he pitched in college and was considered as a pitching prospect coming out of the draft). He stole quite a few bases in the minors – I’ve heard it said that was more smart baserunning than athleticism, but you need to be some kind of quick to get 20+ SBs. He should be able to play LF/RF competently if not well.

Seth Rosin can hit the side of a barn with a baseball. From space.
Giants baseball: We're stupid enough to WIN that (TM)

by quincy0191 on Feb 5, 2012 1:21 AM PST up reply actions  

"Quite frankly, in our league, in our division, no matter how many runs you score, you’re going to be in one- and two-run games." – the obvious continuation of that quote would be, “and because we didn’t sign Carlos Beltran, we expect to be on the short side of those.”

Proud owner of over 20,000 comments. (most of them in the wrong place) Oh yeah, and Buster Posey

by rxmeister on Feb 5, 2012 8:27 AM PST reply actions  

or “on the the basis that if we score 10 runs, Lincecum will give up between 8 and 12 runs. If we score 3, Lincecum will give up between 1 and 5. I mean, that’s just common sense.”

by sarf_london_niner on Feb 5, 2012 11:06 AM PST up reply actions  

I read that part like 4 times and I still don’t see any explanation for it except pretty much what you said.

Thing A

by sam23 on Feb 5, 2012 9:08 PM PST up reply actions   1 recs

Pitching to the score!

by chilibean_3 on Feb 6, 2012 8:42 AM PST up reply actions  

So I guess he's saying...

He wanted to upgrade the OF and had the Sanchez/Cabrera deal sitting there in front of him, which provided another bat in a pretty payroll-neutral transaction. If you wait around for Beltran to make up his mind, you risk getting outbid or the player just deciding to go elswhere and then end up with neither.

It’s a dilema for GMs that I think gets minimized here; things don’t happen in a nice linear time frame. You do some transactions without the benefit of 20/20 hindsight.

Bold Prediction: Pablo Sandoval finishes 1st or 2nd in 2012 NL MVP voting. I'm Twittering now (well maybe not literally now): @GoofusMcP

by Goofus on Feb 6, 2012 8:53 AM PST reply actions   1 recs

It lso problem that I tink gets overemphasized in the Giants front office.

They are way to prone to take the deal in front of them, even if it isn’t a very good one, than to take on any risk what so ever.

VAE PVTO DEVS FIO

by Bhaakon on Feb 6, 2012 4:12 PM PST up reply actions  

This smells of typical Sabean bullshit to me but if you are not committed to bringing Beltran back then why in the holy shitfuck do you trade your #1 prospect for him?

It is just an inexcusably shortsighted deal in a time when cheap pitching could really give the Giants some flexibility.

Despite his permanent erection, the man has no regrets over his penis tattoo, according to the report.

by camwoody on Feb 6, 2012 5:04 PM PST reply actions  

I think he said at some point

that he thought ownership would give him more money to play with this offseason, and that he traded Wheeler thinking, in that context, that he’d be able to re-sign Beltran.

Generally agree with your point though.

SF Giants' record in the eleven-year twenty-first century/Pac Bell era: five MVPs, two CYA, one ROY, the two highest single-season OPS of all time (and two of the other top eight), the single-season and all-time HR records, two NL Pennants, and ... one World Championship

by SnowLeopard on Feb 6, 2012 7:04 PM PST up reply actions  

Yep

He has definitely hinted as much. I think the overthrow of Bowtie and subsequent penny-pinching on the part of the new regime is not something that Sabean was anticipating at all.

by taliesin on Feb 7, 2012 11:27 AM PST up reply actions  

Nobody expects the Baerish Inquisition!

2010 World Series Champions!
Adopted 'nephew' to the ever avuncular and always awesome Jon Miller

by Johnny Disaster on Feb 8, 2012 5:10 PM PST up reply actions  

So I think this is progress...

No more magic 8 ball.

"It ended up being a Rubik’s cube, which was very difficult for us to make a decision alone with a forever-changing time line.

GIANTS BASEBALL: HOPE LIKE HELL!

by Cody_ransom on Feb 8, 2012 9:03 AM PST reply actions  

One good thing which that rambling reminded me of.

If Huff sucks this year, I think he will be gone just like Tejada was last year. Hopefully it will happen before the all star break rather than after if he continues to be awful.

GIANTS BASEBALL: HOPE LIKE HELL!

by Cody_ransom on Feb 8, 2012 9:12 AM PST reply actions  

I think it depends at least as much on Belt not sucking.

If Huff stinks and so does everyone else, we’re probably stuck with Huff until the team fall double digits games back.

VAE PVTO DEVS FIO

by Bhaakon on Feb 8, 2012 7:26 PM PST up reply actions  

Yup.

When young players suck it’s because they’re busts. When veterans suck it’s just a slump.

by Every6thDay on Feb 9, 2012 9:42 AM PST up reply actions  

i listened to a Huff interview on fanfest and funny thing was he didn’t sound worried at all about last year’s performance. When they mentioned that Posey and/or Belt might cut into his playing time at first base he seemed to think he’d have plenty of opportunities in the OF for playing time. seems like he’s still living off 2010.

by repeat_in_2011 on Feb 9, 2012 6:17 PM PST up reply actions  

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