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Grant Brisbee
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I linked to this on my facebook page.
“Quick,” I said. “Think of your all-time favorite baseball player. Well, Barry Bonds was better than him. Sorry.”
11 01 10
Veni Vidi Vixi
by WhereThere'sAWillieThere'sAMays on Jan 13, 2012 11:11 AM PST reply actions
This is true.
GIANTS BASEBALL: HOPE LIKE HELL!
by Cody_ransom on Jan 13, 2012 11:13 AM PST up reply actions
The "sorry" part isn't true, to be honest.
I’m not.
11 01 10
Veni Vidi Vixi
by WhereThere'sAWillieThere'sAMays on Jan 13, 2012 11:18 AM PST up reply actions
"Sorry I'm not sorry."
"I see these guys walking around with rings on, and I want one. That's what it's all about." -Ryan Vogelsong
That’s better than the sorry-buts. Some people only say “sorry” if it’s followed by a “but” and pretty much explains that the first word out of their mouth was not sincere. There’s a whole demographic of sorry-buts.
Giants Baseball: Hope like hell™
Proud father of the man in charge of taking your hard-earned cash.
They're called politicians.
"I see these guys walking around with rings on, and I want one. That's what it's all about." -Ryan Vogelsong
There’s a whole demographic of sorry-buts.
White people?
Adopted father of Chris Lincecum, without whom (quite literally) Timmy would not exist.
by speckops on Jan 13, 2012 12:23 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
/ golf clap
I'm a Giants Fan, but I'll always be rooting for Matt Downs
Adopted Son:Dan Burkhart , Future Backup To Buster Posey.
I’m sorry you feel that way, but if you stopped asking us to apologize for things, maybe we wouldn’t say things like that.
by GuyWhiteyCorngood on Jan 13, 2012 12:29 PM PST up reply actions
Actually, I just said "favorite player."
Because Barry was better than all those other sports’ players, too.
11 01 10
Veni Vidi Vixi
by WhereThere'sAWillieThere'sAMays on Jan 13, 2012 11:14 AM PST up reply actions
If a Celebrity Deathmatch hasn't occurred between BLB and Kobe Bryant, I want to see it.
Better to be a Giants fan than an Athletic supporter!
I miss that guy
Obviously any links in the above post are probably NSFW
The baseball gods do not always punish the wicked but they will not just allow people to spit in their faces -- Joe Posnanski
Kudos, You are a sick, sick man, but you are very good at it -- wcw
by jctGamer on Jan 13, 2012 11:19 AM PST reply actions 1 recs
I'm second in this line,
and jostling for first.
by mrs. owlcroft on Jan 13, 2012 12:16 PM PST up reply actions
The craziest stat...
League average OBP against pitchers whom he was hitless in over 700 AB.
GIANTS BASEBALL: HOPE LIKE HELL!
I know
You’re creating a HUGE sampling bias that works against Bonds, and he’s still average.
by GuyWhiteyCorngood on Jan 13, 2012 11:57 AM PST up reply actions
For a season+ worth of PA’s, without getting a hit, he would have been better offensively than several current Giants.
"Man, you just can't beat a good bowl of gumbo." ~ William Nuschler Clark
Well, no. Since his slugging % was 0.
Adopted father of Chris Lincecum, without whom (quite literally) Timmy would not exist.
If he played CF he could lead off.
by GuyWhiteyCorngood on Jan 13, 2012 12:04 PM PST up reply actions
Well, he’d still be better than 10 or so pitchers. :^)
"Man, you just can't beat a good bowl of gumbo." ~ William Nuschler Clark
His wOBA for those PA's was .241
Higher than Manny Burriss’ last year.
Brandon Crawford: Yeah, but check out that Defense!
by Azmanz on Jan 13, 2012 12:05 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
If they have to say he was both one of the greatest to ever play the game and the greatest ever to cheat in the game
so be it. Whatever gets him in on the first ballot. His baseball accomplishments are ridiculous.
This is a true and correct statement
and it sums up my feelings on Bonds perfectly.
I'm a Giants Fan, but I'll always be rooting for Matt Downs
Adopted Son:Dan Burkhart , Future Backup To Buster Posey.
When he didn’t cheat and you did, he was better than you. When he did cheat and you still did, he was way better than you.
Adopted father of Chris Lincecum, without whom (quite literally) Timmy would not exist.
by speckops on Jan 13, 2012 11:56 AM PST up reply actions 7 recs
Rec’d.
I DON'T BELIEVE YOU (AGAIN) [now with theme song]
I tweet (and occasionally blarg) | Your San Francisco Giants: "Together We're Broken!"
by can of corn on Jan 13, 2012 11:57 AM PST up reply actions
Can someone explain this to me?
Why is it Gaylord Perry admits to ACTIVELY cheating in a game, the spitball, and is beloved for it, and was elected to the HOF. Yet the PED guys are vilified?
Watching the Giants play baseball is like buying tickets 162 times a year to have Mike Tyson pretend your testicles are a speed bag.
by danieljgrant on Jan 13, 2012 1:07 PM PST up reply actions
Dude is white?
Adopted father of Chris Lincecum, without whom (quite literally) Timmy would not exist.
So is Clemens...
Watching the Giants play baseball is like buying tickets 162 times a year to have Mike Tyson pretend your testicles are a speed bag.
by danieljgrant on Jan 13, 2012 1:09 PM PST up reply actions
And he will get more votes than Bonds next year
I wish a book would take a bet on this.
Dearest, Susan - The Patron Saint of Patience
by Lars The Wanderer on Jan 13, 2012 1:11 PM PST up reply actions
USED HIS SON IN A PRESS CONFERENCE!
Watching the Giants play baseball is like buying tickets 162 times a year to have Mike Tyson pretend your testicles are a speed bag.
by danieljgrant on Jan 13, 2012 1:13 PM PST up reply actions
Correct
Dearest, Susan - The Patron Saint of Patience
by Lars The Wanderer on Jan 13, 2012 1:14 PM PST up reply actions
I will change my sig to anything you want if Bonds gets more votes then Clemens
Dearest, Susan - The Patron Saint of Patience
by Lars The Wanderer on Jan 13, 2012 1:15 PM PST up reply actions
That's what I was thinking.
“Azmanz is smarter than me” for 1 baseball season.
And I’ll put
“Lars The Wanderer is smarter than me”
Brandon Crawford: Yeah, but check out that Defense!
Deal!
Dearest, Susan - The Patron Saint of Patience
by Lars The Wanderer on Jan 13, 2012 1:17 PM PST up reply actions
Couple questions to clarify.
Are they eligible the same year? If not, total % for first year on ballot is the bet?
Brandon Crawford: Yeah, but check out that Defense!
They are both eligible for the first time next year
Dearest, Susan - The Patron Saint of Patience
by Lars The Wanderer on Jan 13, 2012 1:19 PM PST up reply actions
Awww.
I want Azmanz to be right, but I love Lars’s Ode to Susan!
What to do, what to do.
11 01 10
Veni Vidi Vixi
by WhereThere'sAWillieThere'sAMays on Jan 13, 2012 1:42 PM PST up reply actions
Because there are two discourses of cheating. One is a type that is frowned upon but at least tacitly accepted (spitballs, peeking at the catcher, Victorino-type baserunning shenanigans), and the other is criminalized.
by non sequitur on Jan 13, 2012 1:14 PM PST up reply actions
But cocaine, drunk driving, etc., are all illegal. Yet PED’s are NAUGHTY!
Watching the Giants play baseball is like buying tickets 162 times a year to have Mike Tyson pretend your testicles are a speed bag.
by danieljgrant on Jan 13, 2012 1:16 PM PST up reply actions
Yeah. That speaks to how incredibly closed a world sports is.
by non sequitur on Jan 13, 2012 1:17 PM PST up reply actions
I agree. But I have yet to hear a member of the BBWAA make the comparison to Perry. Either for or against. I just want an explanation from a voter WHY one version of cheating is cool and neat-o, and the other is abhorrent.
Watching the Giants play baseball is like buying tickets 162 times a year to have Mike Tyson pretend your testicles are a speed bag.
by danieljgrant on Jan 13, 2012 1:22 PM PST up reply actions
Because of reasons
Adopted father of Chris Lincecum, without whom (quite literally) Timmy would not exist.
SCIENCE!
Watching the Giants play baseball is like buying tickets 162 times a year to have Mike Tyson pretend your testicles are a speed bag.
by danieljgrant on Jan 13, 2012 1:26 PM PST up reply actions
And don’t forget that you can abuse your spouse.
Adopted father of Chris Lincecum, without whom (quite literally) Timmy would not exist.
Or your spouse can abuse you
/ Tawny Kitaen says Hello with a shoe
I'm a Giants Fan, but I'll always be rooting for Matt Downs
Adopted Son:Dan Burkhart , Future Backup To Buster Posey.
I will have to think on this because I do think those things are different than using PEDs (including greenies). I also think off the field things of a criminal nature are a third, separate category of besmirchment, but I can’t adequately express why I feel that way.
2010 World Series Champions!
Adopted 'nephew' to the ever avuncular and always awesome Jon Miller
by Johnny Disaster on Jan 13, 2012 5:32 PM PST up reply actions
Reading Bonds’s stats like this put me in mind of the “Da Bears” skit they used to run on SNL back in the early 90s with Chris Farley, Joe Mantegna, and others. Mike Ditka was a man with superhuman powers to all of the guys in the bar and they would unblinkingly make outrageous predictions like Ditka could beat the Cowboys even if he was literally the only Chicago player in the game. Bonds so easily put up so many amazing stats in the 2nd half of his career that we often forgot/forget just how outrageously special his feats were.
"There ain’t much to being a ballplayer, if you’re a ballplayer." - Honus Wagner
“A hurricane vs. Ditka?”
“DITKA!”
“What if the Hurrican was named Ditka?”
“Whoa, that’s a tough one.”
Giants Baseball: Hope like hell™
Proud father of the man in charge of taking your hard-earned cash.
“The Giants vs. a team of miniature Ditkas – what’s the score?”
Guy 1: “99-0”
Guy 2: “199-0”
Guy 1: “Wait, there are 12 mini-Ditkas on the team? I thought you were asking the score vs. a single mini-Ditka. In that case, I change my answer to 399-0.”
"There ain’t much to being a ballplayer, if you’re a ballplayer." - Honus Wagner
Wait a minute
Joe Mantegna used to be on SNL?
Man, and I thought the current crop of “talent” was bad…
by free f.p. #14 on Jan 13, 2012 11:33 AM PST up reply actions
No, he wasn’t a regular, but he did regularly show up for these skits. George Wendt (Norm from “Cheers”) also was a regular on these skits, but he also didn’t appear anywhere else in the show.
"There ain’t much to being a ballplayer, if you’re a ballplayer." - Honus Wagner
Oh, I see. BTW, I have an embarrassing Joe Mantegna-related fact to announce: I sometimes enjoy watching Criminal Minds. It’s my guilty pleasure.
by free f.p. #14 on Jan 13, 2012 11:39 AM PST up reply actions
I watch it, although sometimes the glee with which violence against women is shown makes me a bit uncomfortable.
I DON'T BELIEVE YOU (AGAIN) [now with theme song]
I tweet (and occasionally blarg) | Your San Francisco Giants: "Together We're Broken!"
by can of corn on Jan 13, 2012 11:43 AM PST up reply actions
Yeah, a lot of those crime procedurals are like that, unfortunately.
@legaleagle88
I'm not crazy. My mother had me tested.
I stopped watching SVU for that reason. The subject matter makes me uncomfortable.
by free f.p. #14 on Jan 13, 2012 11:45 AM PST up reply actions
SVU sounds like it’s “RAPE RAPE RAPE INCEST RAPE SEXUAL BATTERY RAPE MURDER RAPE.” Is my take pretty accurate?
Adopted father of Chris Lincecum, without whom (quite literally) Timmy would not exist.
I have always had a problem with SVU profiting off this.
11 01 10
Veni Vidi Vixi
by WhereThere'sAWillieThere'sAMays on Jan 13, 2012 12:05 PM PST up reply actions
That show drives my mom crazy whenever she sees me watch it. I enjoy it though.
by free f.p. #14 on Jan 13, 2012 11:44 AM PST up reply actions
Don’t hang your head. According to their twitter feeds, there are 1 or 2 Giant minor leaguers that love “Criminal Minds” too.
"There ain’t much to being a ballplayer, if you’re a ballplayer." - Honus Wagner
The most random is how I’ve seen more than one of them tweet about Extreme Couponing.
@legaleagle88
I'm not crazy. My mother had me tested.
I’ve missed those tweets, but I do recall that there are a few reality TV shows that our kids are embarassed to admit that they watch.
"There ain’t much to being a ballplayer, if you’re a ballplayer." - Honus Wagner
I’m home for lunch right now, and I am watching Teen Mom. I can’t really comment on what anyone else is watching!
@legaleagle88
I'm not crazy. My mother had me tested.
I just found Demondre Arnold’s twitter feed this morning. I find it stereotypical, but curiously refreshing, how prolifically and unabashedly politically uncorrect Arnold and Shawn Payne are on their feeds.
"There ain’t much to being a ballplayer, if you’re a ballplayer." - Honus Wagner
I follow all the Giants minor leaguers, plus a bunch from other teams, and most of them are pretty politically incorrect. It makes me laugh.
@legaleagle88
I'm not crazy. My mother had me tested.
Unfortunately young athletes aren’t generally the direction to look in search of enlightened opinions.
by BestHyperboleEver on Jan 13, 2012 11:57 AM PST up reply actions
You’re on Twitter, Fla? Do you tweet frequently about Giants prospects?
by free f.p. #14 on Jan 13, 2012 11:43 AM PST up reply actions
I have an account, but I’ve only tweeted twice. I use it to follow the info tweeted by prospects and media types.
"There ain’t much to being a ballplayer, if you’re a ballplayer." - Honus Wagner
LOL
I do have 2 followers, but I have no idea why they want/wanted to follow me.
"There ain’t much to being a ballplayer, if you’re a ballplayer." - Honus Wagner
Porn bots.
I DON'T BELIEVE YOU (AGAIN) [now with theme song]
I tweet (and occasionally blarg) | Your San Francisco Giants: "Together We're Broken!"
by can of corn on Jan 13, 2012 11:57 AM PST up reply actions
He was the dad in Searching for Bobby Fischer 20 years ago.
by non sequitur on Jan 13, 2012 12:05 PM PST up reply actions
That was a good movie
My 2 favorite Joe Mantegna movies:
“Things Change” (1988)
“House of Games” (1987)
"There ain’t much to being a ballplayer, if you’re a ballplayer." - Honus Wagner
Joe Mantegna and Dennis Franz
were among the group of actors that developed one of the great baseball plays out there (not that there are many), Bleacher Bums.
11 01 10
Veni Vidi Vixi
by WhereThere'sAWillieThere'sAMays on Jan 13, 2012 11:52 AM PST up reply actions
He could still be a DH in 2012
Dearest, Susan - The Patron Saint of Patience
by Lars The Wanderer on Jan 13, 2012 11:29 AM PST reply actions
I was Bondsterbating in Grant threads just last week
Argleboy stole this idea.
Dearest, Susan - The Patron Saint of Patience
by Lars The Wanderer on Jan 13, 2012 11:34 AM PST reply actions
Game 2, 2002 WS: I had a similar reaction to Glaus on Barry’s HR where you can rip-lead Glaus (or Salmon?): “That’s the longest home run I’ve ever seen”
My reaction: “Where in the hell did that ball just land?” I wasn’t even cheering. I was too dumbstruck.
Giants Baseball: Hope like hell™
Proud father of the man in charge of taking your hard-earned cash.
It took me a good few seconds to figure this out:
rip-lead
@legaleagle88
I'm not crazy. My mother had me tested.
d’oh
Giants Baseball: Hope like hell™
Proud father of the man in charge of taking your hard-earned cash.
ooooooooooooooooooooooooh. I see what you tried to type.
by chilibean_3 on Jan 13, 2012 11:43 AM PST up reply actions
I've seen video of this since,
although it is hard to (maybe impossible) to find online now, it’s very tough to see where it lands, it just kind of disappears into the smog.
GIANTS BASEBALL: HOPE LIKE HELL!
by Cody_ransom on Jan 13, 2012 11:42 AM PST up reply actions
I recall it being hard to see because the cameraman lost the flight of the ball.
by non sequitur on Jan 13, 2012 12:07 PM PST up reply actions
I recall it being hard to see becausethe cameraman lost the flight of the ballthe ball was vaporized like Randy Johnson’s dove.
11 01 10
Veni Vidi Vixi
by WhereThere'sAWillieThere'sAMays on Jan 13, 2012 12:08 PM PST up reply actions
I also feel the compulsion to acknowledge the twss-ability of my statement. I may need a McC break.
by non sequitur on Jan 13, 2012 12:23 PM PST up reply actions
It’s on the 2002 World Series DVD.
The ball landed in the tunnel deep in the right field stands.
Aubrey Huff: "My body is ripped."
by Grant_ME_MERCY on Jan 13, 2012 11:55 AM PST up reply actions
Another thing.
Remember how good ARod was in Texas? Compare his numbers to Bonds’ during the same time. He was lapping the field.
GIANTS BASEBALL: HOPE LIKE HELL!
Being the bullpen catcher for this must have really sucked.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fqNpC3cZN6k&feature=related
I have Croix de Candlesticks older than you.
Golden Gate Beer Bars | Tweetybox
Hey, I found those bacon flavored sunflower seeds. I think I got them at the Cal League ASG.
@legaleagle88
I'm not crazy. My mother had me tested.
Now I want some.
I DON'T BELIEVE YOU (AGAIN) [now with theme song]
I tweet (and occasionally blarg) | Your San Francisco Giants: "Together We're Broken!"
by can of corn on Jan 13, 2012 11:45 AM PST up reply actions
I should bring them to you when I see you in a couple weeks. I’m not going to eat them.
@legaleagle88
I'm not crazy. My mother had me tested.
I would not say no.
I DON'T BELIEVE YOU (AGAIN) [now with theme song]
I tweet (and occasionally blarg) | Your San Francisco Giants: "Together We're Broken!"
by can of corn on Jan 13, 2012 11:47 AM PST up reply actions
kdls can’t tell they’re not bacon!
by GuyWhiteyCorngood on Jan 13, 2012 11:59 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
I don’t really like sunflower seeds (they were a give away), so I don’t know.
/banned
@legaleagle88
I'm not crazy. My mother had me tested.
Now I’m starting to doubt that you really like baseball. This is all just a ruse.
by GuyWhiteyCorngood on Jan 13, 2012 12:06 PM PST up reply actions
I feel sort of dirty using Owlcroft's website to defend bonds there
but some people need to see the other side of the coin.
Obviously any links in the above post are probably NSFW
The baseball gods do not always punish the wicked but they will not just allow people to spit in their faces -- Joe Posnanski
Kudos, You are a sick, sick man, but you are very good at it -- wcw
Some people are just beyond informing
Unfortunately, a lot of them are members of the BBWAA.
Dearest, Susan - The Patron Saint of Patience
by Lars The Wanderer on Jan 13, 2012 11:49 AM PST up reply actions
From steroids-and-baseball.com
Aging and Power:
Contrary to what uncountable numbers of ignoramuses are chattering away about, medical science has long been aware that strength tends to peak at about age 40 (or possibly later), and then typically remain nearly constant for another decade or so. (There are extensive probative citations from the medical literature on the the medical-effects page here.) That a man can, by a diligent exercise regimen, sustain, or even improve, strength after his early 30s is no puzzle or inexplicable oddity—it is normal human behavior.
Bonds probably could still hit 20-30 HR a year.
Brandon Crawford: Yeah, but check out that Defense!
To be fair
owlcroft misrepresents his own references when he makes the above statement. Go ahead, look up what his sources actually say, because they aren’t what he asserts. Does anyone actually believe the strength of a sixty year old has remained nearly constant to what it had been at forty? And at 60, he’s stronger than he was at 30? It’s weird crap like that all over that site. Why do people reference it?
by biff pocoroba on Jan 13, 2012 12:05 PM PST up reply actions
I read the abstracts to the journal entries he linked, they seem to back it up.
Brandon Crawford: Yeah, but check out that Defense!
Abstracts can be misleading.
Adopted father of Chris Lincecum, without whom (quite literally) Timmy would not exist.
Seriously.
I mean, what the fuck, Jackson Pollock?
11 01 10
Veni Vidi Vixi
by WhereThere'sAWillieThere'sAMays on Jan 13, 2012 12:11 PM PST up reply actions
Very true.
I don’t feel like reading an entire medical article tho
Brandon Crawford: Yeah, but check out that Defense!
Consider a man at 40 is starting his fifth decade, would you reconsider your statement?
None of the sources claim a 50 year old man is at his peak strength, does it? In fact they all say the opposite.
by biff pocoroba on Jan 13, 2012 12:13 PM PST up reply actions
Bonds isn't 50.
He’s what, 47? So yeah he’s declined, but declined from a guy who hit a HR in every 15 PA’s just a couple years ago.
Brandon Crawford: Yeah, but check out that Defense!
Oh, not again.
The Mister is just coming home from yet another hospital board meeting and doesn’t have time to respond to this. And I don’t have the patience. So be it.
by mrs. owlcroft on Jan 13, 2012 12:18 PM PST up reply actions
Because he’s the only one who has done anything approaching a legitimate study on the subject.
Andre Ethier: Gross-o-Matic 5000
-Adopted Giant: Dan Runzler
If what biff is saying is true, it’s not a legitimate study though.
Adopted father of Chris Lincecum, without whom (quite literally) Timmy would not exist.
Read the report
and compare it to your average rigorously scrutinized scientific paper. It’s laughable.
by biff pocoroba on Jan 13, 2012 12:18 PM PST up reply actions
approaching was the important word. I mean, this was owlcroft sitting in his office and reading/rereading things and then crediting them. So, it’s a study in the way that a research paper is a study. But it’s really the best we’ve got.
Certainly a major step up from the BWAA level of analysis on the subject (“I am alive and watch baseball, and I therefor I have these ironclad opinions.”).
I’m sure that owlcroft will pop in any time now to tell us that we’re all idiots, and that I, in particular, am wrong.
Andre Ethier: Gross-o-Matic 5000
-Adopted Giant: Dan Runzler
Alex, you are very nearly correct.
How’s that for a surprise!
But I can tell you that the Mister put in months of research and contacting different sources and then researching some more. Anyone who wants to complain that his website has not been scrutinized is missing the point that it’s a condensation of various “rigorously scrutinized scientific paper(s)”. ’Nuff said.
by mrs. owlcroft on Jan 13, 2012 12:21 PM PST up reply actions
Without passing judgment either way on this study, I just wanted to comment on this bit:
But it’s really the best we’ve got.
If the best we’ve got isn’t good enough, you’re probably better off not relying on it and instead going from first principles.
Adopted father of Chris Lincecum, without whom (quite literally) Timmy would not exist.
That steroids improve player’s ability to hit home runs?
Andre Ethier: Gross-o-Matic 5000
-Adopted Giant: Dan Runzler
It’s not precisely a study.
I DON'T BELIEVE YOU (AGAIN) [now with theme song]
I tweet (and occasionally blarg) | Your San Francisco Giants: "Together We're Broken!"
by can of corn on Jan 13, 2012 12:19 PM PST up reply actions
Wait, what?
40 + a decade = 50, not 60.
The most delightful ecumenical contradiction in nomenclature.
Dursh nerf darsh narf. Poop.
My memory may be playing tricks....
but I believe the report once claimed “a decade or two”, instead of “a decade or so”. If someone has an original sceen grab, that’d be great. If not, I’ll retreat my ‘60’ comment.
by biff pocoroba on Jan 13, 2012 12:22 PM PST up reply actions
I don’t think 50 is the absolute cutoff point even in the way it’s written now. It says that strength can peak “possibly later” than 40, and then says “a decade or so.”
@legaleagle88
I'm not crazy. My mother had me tested.
So I’ll be stronger when I’m 55 than what I am now? Sweet. No more weights for me; I’ll just sit on my couch and wait to get older.
by GuyWhiteyCorngood on Jan 13, 2012 12:26 PM PST up reply actions
lol
Nah, if you keep working out you will be tho.
Brandon Crawford: Yeah, but check out that Defense!
Misrepresenting sources
There was a thread on another website that discussed the Steroids and Baseball work:
http://www.insidethebook.com/ee/index.php/site/comments/eric_walker_and_his_high_horse/
The group there rightly rips the weird steroids and baseball methodology to shreds. Among my favorite commenters is physics professor Roger Tobin, a guy owlcroft misrepresents in his work. Dr. Tobin writes this about sources in the steroids and baseball website @ #68:
I’ve looked up most of them , and in context they are brief qualitative statements, not supported by data, and one of them is just fabricated (see below). None suggest that the effects on lower-body muscle are negligible, provide even the roughest quantitative estimate of how great the differential effect might be, or suggest that it is as large as the factor of 3-4 that Walker assumes.
The site is apparently an exercise on how to create a study to confirm ones beliefs. Start with a conclusion and if the data don’t support it, then misrepresent the data, disregard it, etc.
by biff pocoroba on Jan 13, 2012 3:01 PM PST up reply actions
As Mr. O just said elsewhere,
at this point, it’s not worth wasting any more electrons.
by mrs. owlcroft on Jan 13, 2012 6:33 PM PST up reply actions
Why (I wonder every time this comes up) has he not even bothered to fix the doctored quote? Surely the electrons can be spared.
Why? Why, why, why?
Does no one ever take the extraordinarily simple step of reading the fucking text? Why did I bother to provide links to the sources of every quotation from a medical journal? Why did I explain all these things at length?
As I said in another forum, do you suppose that Profesor Tobin might just have gotten his knickers in a twist over this (boxed) text on the site?
See, for example, Professor Roger Tobin’s paper, cited above, in which he makes exactly that mistake and comes to the bizarre conclusion that steroid-assisted ballplayers can hit 50% or more extra home runs from a simple 10% muscle gain in body weight; one would have thought that that result in itself would send anyone back to the drawing board, running, but apparently it did not in this case—despite the, um, glaring shall we say? lack of 50% (or 40% or 10% or 5%) increases in home runs in the steroid era in general or from particular individuals accused of serious steroid use. Cobbler, stick to thy last.If you think that after that Tobin is a dispassionate commentator, jolly good for you.
If someone thinks a quotation is “doctored”, provide the text from the site and the “correct” text from the linked source. I don’t known why I keep wasting time and electrons on people who cannot be bothered to actually read the material they are so willing to pontificate about. But, as it says clearly on the front page of the site:
I want to emphasize that point—that this page is only a summary—because a reader who wants to take issue with what is said here, if he or she is to do so with intellectual honesty, must refer to the detail pages and must meet the full analyses and references appearing there with his or her own persuasive arguments and supporting citations. To do anything else is merely to handwave (and handwaving is what almost all of the public “discussion” of these matters has so far entailed).
I am painfully aware from long experience that no matter what I say and urge here, the many season ticket holders to Short Attention-Span Theater just will not go beyond this page, and will go away thinking they have “read about” what this site is presenting. But I can only do what I can do.
Apparently we are still at the stage where “I feel” and “In my opinion” and “It seems to me” are supposed to be weighted equally with long laundry lists of mutually agreeing quotations from peer-reviewed scientific journals.
RTFM.
Professional baseball analyst since 1980.
Wir sind gewohnt, daß die Menschen verhöhnen was sie nicht verstehn.—Goethe
The usual hysterical, off-point recycling of classic owlcroftisms . . .
Here’s the deal: You misquoted a NEJM article. Badly. Nowhere in the article does it say what you claim it does; if anything, it says the opposite. It’s an open and shut case; anyone can look it up on the Internet, and whatever axes you and Tobin may be grinding with each other are neither here nor there.
And more to the point—because mistakes can happen, although the fast-and-looseness of your interpretations of your various medical sources leaves one disinclined to give the benefit of the doubt—the error was pointed out to you three years ago, and has been cited again and again hereabouts, and yet you’ve chosen to let it stand. No one who honestly cares about the facts would do that.
If . . .
. . . you would care to provide the exact text from the steroids site and the exact text, preferably with a link, to the article, it would help me, and I daresay others, better understand what you are on about. As best I recall, nothing on the site taken from an attributed source was anything but a cut-and-paste from that source.
Googling the steroids site, the only reference to the NEJM I find is this:
But most of the buzz about “healing” is in reference to hGH. The source of this rumor is not hard to trace: it flows from a now-famous (or notorious) 1990 article in the New England Journal of Medicine, in which a research team led by Daniel Rudman of the Medical College of Wisconsin gave hGH regularly to a dozen elderly (60+) men, who, according to the paper, were said to have apparently undergone a reversal of “10 to 20 years of aging.”
Looking up that article—from which the quotation was not taken direct, as should be obvious by the lack of link—what I find on a very quick scan is this:
The effects of six months of human growth hormone on lean body mass and adipose-tissue mass were equivalent in magnitude to the changes incurred during 10 to 20 years of aging.
Is that the “fast and loose” misquotation supposedly at issue? If not, what, then?
Professional baseball analyst since 1980.
Wir sind gewohnt, daß die Menschen verhöhnen was sie nicht verstehn.—Goethe
Strength is not the most important factor in hitting a baseball so I fail to appreciate how this is applicable to the discussion.
2010 World Series Champions!
Adopted 'nephew' to the ever avuncular and always awesome Jon Miller
by Johnny Disaster on Jan 13, 2012 5:34 PM PST up reply actions
I'm starting to get this feeling this Bonds guy was pretty good
Maybe even good enough to be in the Hall of Fame.
by GuyWhiteyCorngood on Jan 13, 2012 12:00 PM PST reply actions
1993
I was 14 and I knew back then Bonds was the greatest player ever. I didn’t need the rest of the years convince me.
This.
After what he did in 1993, he had 1.6 more fWar than any other player.
GIANTS BASEBALL: HOPE LIKE HELL!
by Cody_ransom on Jan 13, 2012 12:18 PM PST up reply actions
This is absolutely crazy talk, right?
A. Prove that morality is subjective.
I’m not interested in derailing that thread, but wtf, how is morality not subjective?
Juan "Doesn't Cheat The Game" Perez, future CF for the World Champion San Francisco Giants.
"And besides, if I wanted to participate in a mindless patriotic ritual where my voice isn’t really heard, I would vote." - Chris Marcil
That guy is clearly an idiot
Dearest, Susan - The Patron Saint of Patience
by Lars The Wanderer on Jan 13, 2012 12:06 PM PST up reply actions
Prove that objectively.
Adopted father of Chris Lincecum, without whom (quite literally) Timmy would not exist.
Prove it imperially.
"They'll put a man on the moon before I hit a home run." ~ Gaylord Perry
by calgiants86 on Jan 13, 2012 12:38 PM PST up reply actions
WTF
- empirically
"They'll put a man on the moon before I hit a home run." ~ Gaylord Perry
by calgiants86 on Jan 13, 2012 12:39 PM PST up reply actions
That's just, like, some guy's opinion, man.
"I see these guys walking around with rings on, and I want one. That's what it's all about." -Ryan Vogelsong
/looks regal
Done.
Adopted father of Chris Lincecum, without whom (quite literally) Timmy would not exist.
He's gone next level stupid
Not sure why I let myself get dragged into that.
Juan "Doesn't Cheat The Game" Perez, future CF for the World Champion San Francisco Giants.
"And besides, if I wanted to participate in a mindless patriotic ritual where my voice isn’t really heard, I would vote." - Chris Marcil
You could have a scientific morality.
by GuyWhiteyCorngood on Jan 13, 2012 12:08 PM PST up reply actions
Show your work
"I see these guys walking around with rings on, and I want one. That's what it's all about." -Ryan Vogelsong
If he wants to argue that morality is not subjective he should respond with Durkheim.
by non sequitur on Jan 13, 2012 1:04 PM PST up reply actions
I called the NBC Experience to find out if the RCA Exhibition Hall set they built for the Today show this morning would be left up so visitors could see it.
They already took it down.
I’m going to go stand in front of a moving train now.
Celebrating 60 years of NBC News Today, January 14, 1952 - January 14, 2012
But Charlie Rose will remain to shamble us along through various news points.
Andre Ethier: Gross-o-Matic 5000
-Adopted Giant: Dan Runzler
Get a shoebox and make a diorama.
by GuyWhiteyCorngood on Jan 13, 2012 12:09 PM PST up reply actions
I’ve actually done that.
Celebrating 60 years of NBC News Today, January 14, 1952 - January 14, 2012
“Oh man, it was SUCH A GREAT set, too! You should’ve seen it!”
by Every6thDay on Jan 13, 2012 12:10 PM PST up reply actions
I cant even explain. I love the RCA Exhibition Hall set. It was the original, and still the best in my opinion. In 2002, NBC built the set so visitors could actually sit down at a replica of Dave Garroway’s desk. I never got to do that. I was hoping they’d do it again this year, but my hopes were dashed.
Celebrating 60 years of NBC News Today, January 14, 1952 - January 14, 2012
I’m surprised The Smithsonian isn’t all over this. I’m not joking. They have a friggin Star Trek exhibition.
by Every6thDay on Jan 13, 2012 12:18 PM PST up reply actions
I should write them and ask where the hell my tax dollars are going if, not to support an interactive Today exhibit.
Celebrating 60 years of NBC News Today, January 14, 1952 - January 14, 2012
Don’t they have a Space Museum?
Adopted father of Chris Lincecum, without whom (quite literally) Timmy would not exist.
So maybe that’s where your tax dollars (and Lars’) are going. They cash out your check to the IRS, convert it to pennies, pour it into a jug, and try to figure out what to do with it.
Adopted father of Chris Lincecum, without whom (quite literally) Timmy would not exist.
Poor TL2, his tax monies are being wasted on a jug to hold his tax monies.
by GuyWhiteyCorngood on Jan 13, 2012 12:27 PM PST up reply actions
Has to be able to carry dollar coins and withstand the impact of a $20,000 hammer.
by Every6thDay on Jan 13, 2012 12:30 PM PST up reply actions
Yes, the Air and Space Museum. It is an absolute must see if you are in DC.
"They'll put a man on the moon before I hit a home run." ~ Gaylord Perry
by calgiants86 on Jan 13, 2012 12:32 PM PST up reply actions
Grab it out of the dumpster and set it up in your home!
/Kramer’d
by chilibean_3 on Jan 13, 2012 12:30 PM PST up reply actions
I had half a mind to ask the guy at NBC, a casual-like, “So…where do you put the set elements when you’re done with them?” and then steal them under the cover of night.
Celebrating 60 years of NBC News Today, January 14, 1952 - January 14, 2012
It would make for some very cool home decor.
"They'll put a man on the moon before I hit a home run." ~ Gaylord Perry
by calgiants86 on Jan 13, 2012 12:37 PM PST up reply actions
I’ve alway thought these were like an network anchors’ desk (back when they sat down).
Though it is clearly well-informed, we find his argument unconvincing; however, the possibility that we are too stupid to comprehend it deserves serious consideration. Germane Literature: The Cutting Edge 13:2, 4/2006
Even Barry Bonds is impressed by those stats
by Natto on Jan 13, 2012 12:09 PM PST reply actions 1 recs
Barry’s porn stash.
It would be hilarious if Gary Busey was actually a major league pitcher.
Aubrey Huff: "My body is ripped."
by Grant_ME_MERCY on Jan 13, 2012 12:14 PM PST up reply actions
Matt Kemp is amused by this
Kickham where it hurts
by say hey nation on Jan 13, 2012 12:45 PM PST reply actions
Uh oh, Matt Kemp is a 9ers fan?!
You guys are screwed!
Brandon Crawford: Yeah, but check out that Defense!
WHAT THE FUCK IS THAT
Quote from my adopted son Mike Krukow: "We're the Giants. We're San Francisco. And we're World Series Champions!"
Looks like the new “sunny” face for my weather maps.
Celebrating 60 years of NBC News Today, January 14, 1952 - January 14, 2012
Kemp is from Oklahoma!
Quote from my adopted son Mike Krukow: "We're the Giants. We're San Francisco. And we're World Series Champions!"
You shouldn’t have told me that. I like Midwestern boys.
Celebrating 60 years of NBC News Today, January 14, 1952 - January 14, 2012
Oklahoma is Midwestern?
Adopted father of Chris Lincecum, without whom (quite literally) Timmy would not exist.
It’s between Texas and Kansas.
"They'll put a man on the moon before I hit a home run." ~ Gaylord Perry
by calgiants86 on Jan 13, 2012 12:55 PM PST up reply actions
oh hai!
"Baseball is a red-blooded sport for red-blooded men. It's no pink tea, and mollycoddles had better stay out." -Ty Cobb
Mayor of Smug.
LOLos Angeles Football!
Dearest, Susan - The Patron Saint of Patience
by Lars The Wanderer on Jan 13, 2012 12:57 PM PST up reply actions
I have no idea, but I’ll go ahead & call front-runner.
Giants Baseball: Hope like hell™
Proud father of the man in charge of taking your hard-earned cash.
I wikipedia'd
Turns out he allegedly raped a girl. Kemp makes it so easy to hate him.
Brandon Crawford: Yeah, but check out that Defense!
Wait, what? That’s how he ender up as a 9ers fan?
Adopted father of Chris Lincecum, without whom (quite literally) Timmy would not exist.
I worded that wrong.
I wikipedia’d to find why he was a 9ers fan, and then found out that he allegedly raped a girl.
Brandon Crawford: Yeah, but check out that Defense!
Because Joe Montana is incredibly charismatic and convincing..
by non sequitur on Jan 13, 2012 1:16 PM PST up reply actions
Interesting
Adam Schefter @AdamSchefter 2m Reply RetweetedRetweet Delete FavoritedFavorite · Close Open Details
Jeff Fisher’s agent is Marvin Demoff. Rams executive negotiating deal is Kevin Demoff, Marvin’s son. This will not be a difficult deal.
Quote from my adopted son Mike Krukow: "We're the Giants. We're San Francisco. And we're World Series Champions!"
“Um… Dad… $4 million is too much.”
“You’re not invited to Thanksgiving. Now go call your mother and tell her why.”
Watching the Giants play baseball is like buying tickets 162 times a year to have Mike Tyson pretend your testicles are a speed bag.
by danieljgrant on Jan 13, 2012 1:00 PM PST up reply actions
BNightengale Bob Nightengale
Breaking: The Texas #Rangers are meeting today with Prince Fielder at Dallas-area hotel. Stay tuned #mlb
If you had to answer back against Pujols and Wilson, Darvish and Fielder wouldn’t be the worst way to do it.
The most delightful ecumenical contradiction in nomenclature.
Dursh nerf darsh narf. Poop.
Yeah, I can see why the A’s decided to hold a fire sale this offseason.
Adopted father of Chris Lincecum, without whom (quite literally) Timmy would not exist.
The good news is that there will be plenty of opportunity to see these teams in Oakland
And for more than reasonable prices. I will definitely be taking in some Oakland games this season with the Rangers and Angels are in town. I really want to want Darvish pitch.
Dearest, Susan - The Patron Saint of Patience
by Lars The Wanderer on Jan 13, 2012 1:05 PM PST up reply actions
This
LOLA’s
Aubrey Huff: "My body is ripped."
by Grant_ME_MERCY on Jan 13, 2012 1:06 PM PST up reply actions
I knew it!
The Rangers have a lot of money to spend.
Aubrey Huff: "My body is ripped."
by Grant_ME_MERCY on Jan 13, 2012 1:06 PM PST up reply actions
They were my prediction when the FA season started
Figured they were out after Darvish
Quote from my adopted son Mike Krukow: "We're the Giants. We're San Francisco. And we're World Series Champions!"
.
ZEV CHAFETS New York Times June 19, 2009:
Paul Molitor and Ferguson Jenkins were busted in the 1980s for using cocaine. Molitor later said he was sure he wasn’t the only player on the team using drugs.
…
Since the dawn of baseball, players have used whatever substances they believed would help them perform better, heal faster or relax during a long and stressful season. As far back as 1889, the pitcher Pud Galvin ingested monkey testosterone. During Prohibition, Grover Cleveland Alexander, also a pitcher, calmed his nerves with federally banned alcohol, and no less an expert than Bill Veeck, who owned several major-league teams, said that Alexander was a better pitcher drunk than sober.
In 1961, during his home run race with Roger Maris, Mickey Mantle developed a sudden abscess that kept him on the bench. It came from an infected needle used by Max Jacobson, a quack who injected Mantle with a home-brew containing steroids and speed. In his autobiography, Hank Aaron admitted once taking an amphetamine tablet during a game. The Pirates’ John Milner testified at a drug dealer’s trial that his teammate, Willie Mays, kept "red juice," a liquid form of speed, in his locker. (Mays denied it.) After he retired, Sandy Koufax admitted the he was often "half high" on the mound from the drugs he took for his ailing left arm.
For decades, baseball beat writers — the Hall of Fame’s designated electoral college — shielded the players from scrutiny. When the Internet (and exposés by two former ballplayers, Jim Bouton and Jose Canseco) allowed fans to see what was really happening, the baseball writers were revealed as dupes or stooges. In a rage, they formed a posse to drive the drug users out of the game.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/20/opinion/20chafets.html
An excerpt from Jane Leavy’s acclaimed Mickey Mantle biography:
…Dr. Max(Jacobson) told (Mickey)Mantle to pull down his pants and filled a syringe with what Mantle later described as a smoky liquid. He squirted some into the air and plunged the needle deep into Mantle’s hip. Too high, Mantle said later. It hit bone…
http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/7058409/the-last-boy
Aubrey Huff: "My body is ripped."
After watching It’s Always Sunny in Philadelphia, I don’t think I’ll ever be able to take Danny DeVito seriously again.
In what role did u take Devito seriously?
In Twins?
As the Penguin?
Quote from my adopted son Mike Krukow: "We're the Giants. We're San Francisco. And we're World Series Champions!"
Taxi!
Dearest, Susan - The Patron Saint of Patience
by Lars The Wanderer on Jan 13, 2012 1:13 PM PST up reply actions
Ever seen Big Fish? Or L.A. Confidential?
by free f.p. #14 on Jan 13, 2012 1:14 PM PST up reply actions
I love that show.
"I see these guys walking around with rings on, and I want one. That's what it's all about." -Ryan Vogelsong
Then again
I also love Death to Smoochy.
"I see these guys walking around with rings on, and I want one. That's what it's all about." -Ryan Vogelsong
New thread!
http://www.mccoveychronicles.com/2012/1/13/2705546/a-case-for-not-barry-zito#comments
Aubrey Huff: "My body is ripped."
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