Bruce Bochy is not good at making lineups
In 128 games, the leadoff hitter has been the center fielder 120 times, the shortstop four times, the left fielder three times, and the second baseman once. The second hitter has been the second baseman 98 times, the third baseman 17 times, and the shortstop 13 times.
Bruce Bochy quite literally does decide where hitters should bat in the order based on what position they play. While we know this already, it's worth noting how mind-numbingly stupid it is.
9 months ago
El Person
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Who was the SS all 4 times? It wasn’t Tejada was it? I assume Ross was the LF each time.
That is cray-z.
Tejada twice, Burriss once, Fontenot once (twice after today). Ross was indeed the LF each time.
"Lee pitches...Renteria hits a high drive, deep left-center field, David Murphy going back, he's on the warning track—it is...go-one!"
IT's mind boggling that Miguel Tejada batted lead off even once this season.
I mean, MIGUEL TEJADA!
RIP 2011 Giants Post Season
LOL
It’s kinda funny actually having it confirmed though.
Ross on Halladay: "I’d tried everything against him…going the other way, taking pitches, trying to walk…and nothing worked. I’d never tried going up there and just trying to hit a home run off him."
My boy has mad hops
I rant on Twitter
Bochy’s interest in giving his players some stability as to where they will hit in the lineup, especially with all the injuries, leads to trying to replace his lead-off hitter, who was his center fielder Torres, with the replacement center fielder, and his second hitter, who was his second baseman Sanchez, with a replacement middle infielder. If this interest in stability is stupid, the stupidity remains to be shown.
What is, if not stupid, then mindlessly snide, is to pass negative judgment without trying to figure out the most sensible rationale for some kind of behavior.
That would make sense if the replacements were equally good hitters, or even if they had similar skillsets. But Torres and Rowand are not close on the talent scale, with Torres far outpacing Rowand. Torres is a speed/OBP guy, and Rowand’s biggest calling card now is power. Ross and Rowand would have been similar players last year, but this season Ross is much more like Torres, though not quite as speedy. So he went Torres to Rowand to Ross in CF and hitting leadoff, which in each jump is a significant change in talent and approach.
So he’s more concerned about stability in the sense that the center fielder should lead off and the 2B should hit second than stability in the sense that leadoff hitters should get on base and be fast, and second-place hitters should be bat control guys, which I think is stupid, especially in the leadoff spot since all our outfielders play multiple OF positions. Why should Ross be more comfortable thinking “Depending on which of the three OF positions I play, I’m going to get slotted in a different part of the lineup”? Doesn’t it make more sense to say “No matter what position player X plays, he’s going to hit in this spot” if you’re looking for stability – particularly since a player’s skillset doesn’t change depending on what position they play, but can be optimized by moving them around the lineup?
While lineup construction is not that important in the grand scheme of things, the most sensible rationale here would seem to be to put your best hitters nearer the top of the lineup, and vice versa. As hitters don’t get better or worse by changing positions, what position they play should have no effect on lineup construction, but from the above data it clearly does. And what’s stupider is to not realize it, and stupidest of all is to be presented with the two arguments and choose the one which is logically insane.
Bochy has forgone one beneficial kind of stability for a completely meaningless one. It’s far more disruptive for Ross – or any player – to jump around the lineup than, well, not do that. “If I’m playing ____, I’ll be hitting in the ____ hole” is a lot more complicated than “I’ll be hitting fifth”.
Seth Rosin can hit the side of a barn with a baseball. From space.
Giants baseball: We're stupid enough to WIN that (TM)
by quincy0191 on Aug 23, 2011 9:27 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
“Most sensible” is no replacements for sensible. If that’s his reason, it’s a poor one deserving of snide, negative judgement.
VAE PVTO DEVS FIO
Right, Bhaakon: the most sensible reason may still be poor and deserve negative judgment. But this is wholly beside the point I was making, which is that El Person made no real attempt to figure out why Bochy might have acted as he did, and therefore was himself acting up rather than making a comment about the team. Now you claim, on the strength of an ipse dixit, that Bochy’s reason was a poor one, but your saying so doesn’t make it so.
Quincy0191, however, with his thoughtful response, presents a strong argument why Bochy’s reason, if it’s the one I suggested, might be poor. Yet maybe it’s not so poor, if one figures that the aim is to keep the middle-of-the-order guys together—Sandoval, Huff, Beltran, Belt, sometimes Schierholtz and/or Ross—since their assignment as hitters is roughly the same. Shifts within that group, depending on who’s pitching and who’s slumping, can be made without stability of a good sort being threatened. Then I suspect that to set up things for this core, Bochy knows that someone fast enough to play CF might be fast enough to lead off, and that his middle infielders are slappy, high-contact “professional” hitters, hence reasonable one/two hitters. This mode of lineup construction is challengeable but not prima facie stupid.
I disagree. His goal should be to cluster the team’s best hitter’s together near the top of the lineup, not enforce a fiction of “stability” based on hitter “type”. There’s no benefit to lineup spot stability if it means crappy hitters are being shoehorned between better ones near the top of the order. Stubbornly batting a hitter in a particular spot isn’t going to magically mold him into the ideal number X hitter.
VAE PVTO DEVS FIO
Whenever Torres plays, it makes sense for him to play CF and lead off based on his skillset. And I think it’s broken Bochy’s brain and made him think CF=leadoff, because Aaron Freaking Rowand has hit leadoff this year.
But sometimes his speediest player isn’t leading off, particularly when Schierholtz is in right and Ross is in center (in 2.5 times the PAs, Ross’s BSR is half of Schierholtz’s). Hell, Beltran is probably a better leadoff option with Ross in center considering the OBP and reduced but still adequate speed.
The theory might make sense if Bochy began thinking like a rational person, but he doesn’t. He doesn’t go “Speed = CF = leadoff”, he thinks “Experience in CF = CF = leadoff”, which is why Aaron Freaking Rowand has played center while Torres is in right, and Nate has never played CF. So your problem in trying to explain his thinking starts with this:
Bochy knows that someone fast enough to play CF might be fast enough to lead off
and is therefore doomed from the beginning.
If he’s aiming to keep the middle-of-the-order guys together, again he has a problem from the beginning: this team doesn’t have middle-of-the-order guys other than Pablo. And hopefully Beltran. But other than that, everyone has been hurt, inconsistent, and/or terrible. So he puts Pablo in the third spot, and Beltran is probably penciled in as the cleanup hitter once he gets back, but after that the lineup is wide open. So players should be moving around, and in and out of the lineup, as they get hot and cool down or whatever the hell goes on inside that giant head. It would have to be the mother of all coincidences that in 120/128 games this season the center fielder JUST HAPPENS to be a player who is the best leadoff option and the best CF option. It would be understandable if we had a consistent CF, but Torres, Ross, and Rowand have all seen PT there and of the three, only Torres makes sense as a leadoff hitter. Rowand should be buried as far down as possible, and Ross’s new-found walk rate may make him the best CF and leadoff guy at times, but not when Schierholtz is also in the lineup, and his career indicates a 5/6 hitter, not a leadoff guy.
None of this matters, though, because I can tell you exactly why Ross and Rowand have been leading off while playing CF: Ross hit that homer in the leadoff spot, so he started there for awhile. And Rowand went on that hot streak awhile ago while batting leadoff, so he gets put back there because Bochy believes it’ll break him out of his two-year “slump” (which is, of course, just Rowand sucking).
The 2B argument is less obvious, since our second basemen have been among our better hitters most of the year, so it makes sense for them to hit in the second spot. But I suspect this is mostly coincidental, and Bochy’s reasoning behind putting the second baseman there is because the 2B is a “professional hitter” (NO SHIT) instead of realizing that that is one of the few positions that hasn’t been an offensive black hole most of the season.
Ultimately, Bochy is either doing something stupid or out of touch with reality and making decisions based on the fantastical delusions that tickle his mind. Either is entirely possible, but in no way does it seem remotely possible to me that in 120 of 128 games this season the best CF in the starting lineup was the best option for the leadoff spot, and in 98 of 128 games the 2B was the best option for the second position. If you ask me, Belt should hit second. Put his OBP in front of Pablo, whose team-leading average provides the best chance to get something going with a runner on base 1/3 of the time.
Seth Rosin can hit the side of a barn with a baseball. From space.
Giants baseball: We're stupid enough to WIN that (TM)
I have; and that’s why stability within the lineup might be especially desirable, and players whose skill sets are sufficiently comparable to let them be grouped as I suggest above, might be treated as somewhat fungible in lineup order. Whether this is Bochy’s rationale, I have no idea, of course. Nor can I think of any rationale I’d accept for playing Rowand . . . but that is a different matter.
“If this interest in stability is stupid, the stupidity remains to be shown.”
I think you can look at how many runs the Giants have scored this season and where they rank in the NL, and then you can say it is stupid. Also, you can look at the OBP, which is how frequently the player gets on base, of Tejada, for example, and then think as a leadoff hitter Tejada gets more plate appearances than ANYONE ELSE in the lineup which translates into more outs to make. That is very very stupid. Stability of mediocrity is not desirable. Also, negative judgement of the Giants’ offense is entirely sensible and rational.























