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Basically he's suing the Giants for $5 million due to violations of his contract while he was involved in a murder case. Also, he is trying to return and he has given the Giants 5 days to figure out his contract situation on whether or not they want him to return to the organization.

10 months ago 199386_1017575558958_1212199829_30043189_452_n_tiny BayArea4Life 102 comments 0 recs  | 

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wow, it says he was declared innocent in December. Had not heard that anyplace else.

Marvin Barrios, come on I'll show you your bedroom. Don't stay on the phone too long to Panama, please.

by foothillsfan on Aug 11, 2011 10:19 PM PDT reply actions  

Well, him suing the Giants sure won’t make the Giants want to keep him. But wow.

"The knowledge of the game is inversely proportional to the price of the seat." ---Bill Veeck. •Read My Blarrrgh...er, um....Comic. That doesn't really come across so well when said sarcastically. The Lunatic Fringe

by BruteSentiment on Aug 11, 2011 10:25 PM PDT reply actions  

Well, he is a prick

I think we know that much.

But I still wouldn’t mind seeing him come back to the states and play baseball, even if there is a 99.99% chance it amounts to nothing.

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by EricW on Aug 11, 2011 11:08 PM PDT reply actions  

I’m not going to pretend to understand the intricacies of the legal system of two nations or the facts of the case, but If he’s really innocent, then he got royally screwed here. And if the Giants withheld $10,400 in salary, then they should be paying some penalties (not 5M worth, but civil cases always start with ridiculous demands).

VAE PVTO DEVS FIO

by Bhaakon on Aug 12, 2011 6:04 AM PDT up reply actions  

He was placed on the Restricted List once the State Dept. revoked his Visa. As I understand that’s an administrative function allowed by baseball that allows an organization to retain the rights to a player while removing that player from any active participation in your system.

It’s quite possible that the money in question is the salary that they didn’t pay him this year while he was on the restricted list. If so, then I believe baseball rules would favor the Giants in this case (he was suspended or kicked out, because of his situation he couldn’t show up for work).

On a larger issue, if a kid who got a $2mil signing bonus a few years back is worried about 10k, then I think I’m getting some insight into how his legal case proceeded.

MY DAD WAS WRONG!
MY BOY NEEDS TO THROW HARDER!

by Roger on Aug 12, 2011 11:51 AM PDT up reply actions  

Bottom line…if you’re unable to work, then it’s not the employer’s fault that he didn’t get paid. That’s what happened.

I don’t know if there’s a truly guilty party in all of this, assuming positive intent that the cops pursued who they thought was guilty to the best of the evidence they had, but I think the Giants are far down on the list of responsible parties.

"The knowledge of the game is inversely proportional to the price of the seat." ---Bill Veeck. •Read My Blarrrgh...er, um....Comic. That doesn't really come across so well when said sarcastically. The Lunatic Fringe

by BruteSentiment on Aug 12, 2011 12:57 PM PDT up reply actions  

en la misma se acusa a los Gigantes de mantener a Villalona fuera de acción a pesar de que en enero la oficina de las Grandes Ligas le notificó que ya no estaba en la lista restringida.

Unless my Spanish it totally shot (quite likely the case) this says that he’s suing the Giants because they’ve refused to let him play even though MLB removed him from the restricted list in January.

VAE PVTO DEVS FIO

by Bhaakon on Aug 12, 2011 2:29 PM PDT up reply actions  

The Giants need hitters. Even hitters who like scarfing down Big Macs. Would the Giants be a Band of Misfits without an accused murdered? I think not. I rest my case.

by Grant_ME_MERCY on Aug 11, 2011 11:10 PM PDT reply actions  

Does it say anything about his visa status? Because I wouldn’t think the Giants could do anything until the State Dept. takes him off their no-Visa list, and being declared innocent in a Dominican court system doesn’t necessarily get that done.

MY DAD WAS WRONG!
MY BOY NEEDS TO THROW HARDER!

by Roger on Aug 12, 2011 5:47 AM PDT reply actions  

Being declared innocent in their courts should be the same as getting accused ther.

Go Giants

by Gianni on Aug 12, 2011 6:31 AM PDT up reply actions  

That was my initial thought. Even if they wanted to, I’m not sure the Giants could do anything to get him back to the U.S.

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by kdl on Aug 12, 2011 7:43 AM PDT up reply actions  

They could petition the State Dept. and give testimonials and other forms of persuasion. But they have no power over the decision.

MY DAD WAS WRONG!
MY BOY NEEDS TO THROW HARDER!

by Roger on Aug 12, 2011 11:52 AM PDT up reply actions  

Can you even get a Visa with that sort of thing on your record?

Supporting San Francisco Dugout since 2005 and Manny Burriss since 2006. Bringing you all your California League and New York-Penn League needs since 2009.

by BaronVonCurrentEvents on Aug 12, 2011 1:35 PM PDT up reply actions  

First I had heard of his innocence also. I am unsure of his Visa status but the Braves had a pitcher tried for murder in the 80’s or 90’s AIRC. He had no Visa problems but that was pre 9/11.

Go Giants

by Gianni on Aug 12, 2011 6:30 AM PDT reply actions  

Alfredo Simon’s been pitching for the Orioles most of this year. And I don’t remember Uggie Urbina having to leave the country during his issue either. I’m not sure exactly how or why Angel got the State Dept. so much madder at him than other athletes who have been mixed up in violence in South America have.

MY DAD WAS WRONG!
MY BOY NEEDS TO THROW HARDER!

by Roger on Aug 12, 2011 11:44 AM PDT up reply actions  

I don’t believe either Simon or Urbina were actually arrested, only blackmailed.

"The knowledge of the game is inversely proportional to the price of the seat." ---Bill Veeck. •Read My Blarrrgh...er, um....Comic. That doesn't really come across so well when said sarcastically. The Lunatic Fringe

by BruteSentiment on Aug 12, 2011 12:58 PM PDT up reply actions  

Urbina is currently in prison for attempted murder.

This team is a tease. 2010 Giants baseball playing Just the Tip with the best of them.

by elGuapo on Aug 12, 2011 1:28 PM PDT up reply actions  

Yeah he tried to set two dudes on fire and he attacked them with a machete.

Supporting San Francisco Dugout since 2005 and Manny Burriss since 2006. Bringing you all your California League and New York-Penn League needs since 2009.

by BaronVonCurrentEvents on Aug 12, 2011 1:39 PM PDT up reply actions  

Pardon me, five guys

And not the burgers.

Supporting San Francisco Dugout since 2005 and Manny Burriss since 2006. Bringing you all your California League and New York-Penn League needs since 2009.

by BaronVonCurrentEvents on Aug 12, 2011 1:40 PM PDT up reply actions  

Dumped gasoline on them

Got confused and forgot he doesn’t have a gas grill.

Supporting San Francisco Dugout since 2005 and Manny Burriss since 2006. Bringing you all your California League and New York-Penn League needs since 2009.

by BaronVonCurrentEvents on Aug 12, 2011 1:55 PM PDT up reply actions  

Sorry...

Was thinking of another player who was accused of murder down south to get a payoff to drop the charges. Who was that again?

"The knowledge of the game is inversely proportional to the price of the seat." ---Bill Veeck. •Read My Blarrrgh...er, um....Comic. That doesn't really come across so well when said sarcastically. The Lunatic Fringe

by BruteSentiment on Aug 12, 2011 2:32 PM PDT up reply actions  

Yup

This team is a tease. 2010 Giants baseball playing Just the Tip with the best of them.

by elGuapo on Aug 12, 2011 2:42 PM PDT up reply actions  

That's right...

Uribe…Urbina.

My memory is getting worse as I get older. At least I can claim the names are similar.

"The knowledge of the game is inversely proportional to the price of the seat." ---Bill Veeck. •Read My Blarrrgh...er, um....Comic. That doesn't really come across so well when said sarcastically. The Lunatic Fringe

by BruteSentiment on Aug 12, 2011 7:18 PM PDT up reply actions  

Holy shit, he is still only 20 years old.

Kickham where it hurts

by say hey nation on Aug 12, 2011 8:17 AM PDT reply actions  

Turning 21 tomorrow isn’t he?

MY DAD WAS WRONG!
MY BOY NEEDS TO THROW HARDER!

by Roger on Aug 12, 2011 11:44 AM PDT up reply actions  

The shots will be flowing — and ringing out — in the DR.

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by Josh from Hollywood on Aug 12, 2011 3:12 PM PDT up reply actions   1 recs

Dude is really young.

Bring him back He’s suppose to have huge batting potential.. plus I have his autograph HAHa..

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by ch3zyp00fs on Aug 12, 2011 10:27 AM PDT reply actions  

""Villalona fue descargado por la acusación de homicidio y en la actualidad no pesa ningún cargo en su contra. No hubo suficientes elementos de pruebas y por eso fue descargado", "
Villalona was discharged of the accusation of homicide and actually had no charges against him. There were not sufficient elements of proof and because of that he was discharged.
 My basic translation, Failure to find enough evidence to try is even better than being found innocent, IMO. Deserves a resign and some kind of a deal to play in the Mexican leagues if he cannot return to the US soon.

Go Giants

by Gianni on Aug 12, 2011 10:56 AM PDT reply actions  

Why is being unable to meet the legal burden of proof better than being found innocent? IIRC, Villalona paid off the family, making them less inclined to pursue the matter. Without witnesses, I’d assume proving the case in court would be nearly impossible.

I don’t see any questions answered here.

I DON'T BELIEVE YOU (AGAIN) [now with theme song]

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by can of corn on Aug 12, 2011 1:40 PM PDT up reply actions  

He did pay off the family. From what I understand, it’s common practice to do that, if the accused person is wealthy. I’m not saying that excuses what happened, though.

Supporting San Francisco Dugout since 2005 and Manny Burriss since 2006. Bringing you all your California League and New York-Penn League needs since 2009.

by BaronVonCurrentEvents on Aug 12, 2011 1:55 PM PDT up reply actions  

I don’t know if its like this in the DR, but in the US the amount of evidence needed to go to trial is significantly less than that needed to secure a guilty verdict. In other words, there’s usually more evidence against a person found innocent at trial than against someone who never got one.

VAE PVTO DEVS FIO

by Bhaakon on Aug 12, 2011 2:35 PM PDT up reply actions  

I’m not quite sure what you’re saying, but typically prosecutors in the US don’t bring a case to trial unless they think they have enough to secure the conviction. Getting the indictment requires a lower standard, but for the next step of going to trial, the DA wants to be pretty damn sure he/she can win.

I don’t think I understand your last sentence (especially since no one is ever found “innocent” – the choices are guilty or not guilty).

I DON'T BELIEVE YOU (AGAIN) [now with theme song]

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by can of corn on Aug 12, 2011 2:42 PM PDT up reply actions  

I’m saying that the standard of evidence needed to go to trial is significantly lower than that needed to secure a guilty verdict from most juries. So, in the absence of other info, not even getting to trial is more indicative of innocence than going to trial and securing a not guilty verdict.

VAE PVTO DEVS FIO

by Bhaakon on Aug 12, 2011 5:08 PM PDT up reply actions  

I disagree. If there isn’t enough evidence to secure a guilty verdict, it won’t go to trial, just from a practical standpoint. Not every case is brought to trial. Most are pleaded out, some just never get anywhere because the prosecutor doesn’t feel he/she can prove the crime beyond a reasonable doubt. There are limited resources available to the DA’s office – they don’t try a case unless they feel they have enough evidence. Your assertion that the standard to go to trial is lower than that needed to convict is meaningless.

I think you’ve set up a false distinction.

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by can of corn on Aug 12, 2011 5:20 PM PDT up reply actions  

You just said yourself that a case won’t go to trial if the prosecutor doesn’t think he can get a conviction. If that assertion is correct, the cases that don’t go to trial tend to have less evidence against the accused than ones that go to trial and result in a not guilty verdict. The less evidence against the accused, the more likely that he’s innocent.

Plea bargains are another matter entirely, but the case against Villalona doesn’t appear to have been plea bargained.

VAE PVTO DEVS FIO

by Bhaakon on Aug 12, 2011 8:52 PM PDT up reply actions  

I disagree with the way you present your position and the conclusions you draw. Especially the conclusion you draw.

/bows out of discussion

I DON'T BELIEVE YOU (AGAIN) [now with theme song]

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by can of corn on Aug 13, 2011 8:22 AM PDT up reply actions  

I don't see how that is possible.

Unless you assume that every single person who is suspected of a crime who doesn’t make it to trial has a mountain of evidence against him, and that’s just ridiculous. I’m sure that there are a portion of winnable cases that never reach trial for one reason or another, but your position seems to be that every person who is arrested for a crime without enough evidence to get to a trial is more likely to be guilty than a person who reaches trial and manages to secure a not guilty verdict, and I can’t see how that could possibly be. Particularly in a high-profile murder case where there’s no economic or other outside reason not to prosecute.

VAE PVTO DEVS FIO

by Bhaakon on Aug 13, 2011 4:52 PM PDT up reply actions  

re

Criminal cases go to trial for four reasons, generally

1.) The evidence sucks, but the prosecutor can’t dismiss
2.) The minimum sentence is so high the defendant has no reason to plead
3.) The defendant is delusional about his prospects of winning
4.) The defense attorney or prosecutor doesn’t evaluate his case correctly.

But, you are generally correct, if you view evidence as “what you believe before trial.”

by irwin on Sep 2, 2011 8:26 PM PDT up reply actions  

“And Villalona shoots one back up the middle …”
“And Villalona just fired a bullet across the infield …”
“Not surprising the runners didn’t try to take the extra base there – everyone’s afraid of the rifle they know Villalona’s got …”

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by SnowLeopard on Aug 13, 2011 8:56 PM PDT up reply actions  

“He absolutely murdered that ball.”
“If it’s the bottom of the 9th and the Giants have one last shot to tie it up., Villalona is just the guy you want taking that shot.”

The thong is, it happened.

by Goofus on Sep 3, 2011 1:09 PM PDT up reply actions  

Will all the money the Giants have invested in him, he should come back and play for free for a few years. Complimentary Big Macs though

by m34josh on Aug 12, 2011 12:28 PM PDT reply actions  

So essentially, he just got really screwed.

Assuming his innocence, and we don’t have any real reason to assume otherwise, he just lost a couple years, a decent amount of money and, potentially, his career over a false accusation.

Not to mention a lot of seemingly undeserved ill will from these boards.

Clearly, I hope he is able to restart his career and put this all behind him.

by BestHyperboleEver on Aug 12, 2011 1:14 PM PDT reply actions  

I don’t assume his innocence.

I DON'T BELIEVE YOU (AGAIN) [now with theme song]

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by can of corn on Aug 12, 2011 1:41 PM PDT up reply actions  

That’s the thing. I could make an argument that he’s innocent and that he’s guilty. Like I said above, paying off the family doesn’t look good, but it’s a common practice in the DR. He could have been rolling with some no-good idiots in his posse and someone decided to shoot a gun and look cool, and blamed Villalona for it. Maybe he thought he could shoot a gun and look cool because he was a baller. All of these scenarios are likely. None of them stand out to me as what really happened.

Supporting San Francisco Dugout since 2005 and Manny Burriss since 2006. Bringing you all your California League and New York-Penn League needs since 2009.

by BaronVonCurrentEvents on Aug 12, 2011 1:58 PM PDT up reply actions  

Yup. And it would appear that we’ll never know the answer.

I DON'T BELIEVE YOU (AGAIN) [now with theme song]

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by can of corn on Aug 12, 2011 2:06 PM PDT up reply actions  

Do you assume his guilt?

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by Johnny Disaster on Aug 12, 2011 1:58 PM PDT up reply actions  

Nope. It would seem something happened, and he was involved in it. We’ll never know to what extent.

But it seems to me that he likely did SOMETHING illegal. But we don’t know what. And without the prosecutor’s willingness to take the case to trial, it will remain an unknown.

I DON'T BELIEVE YOU (AGAIN) [now with theme song]

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by can of corn on Aug 12, 2011 2:07 PM PDT up reply actions  

This seems like a very big and cynical assumption. I guess I’m just an “assume innocence until proven otherwise” type of guy.

I don’t find him being guilty of illegal activity any more likely than him being the victim of an opportunistic shakedown.

I also find the family’s willingness to drop the case after being paid off just as dubious (and perhaps moreso) as the payoff itself.

by BestHyperboleEver on Aug 12, 2011 2:14 PM PDT up reply actions   1 recs

I think that’s partly how it works, though. If a family has been compensated, they might not be as interested in jail time for the guy anymore. I thought I’d read that this was common.

And of course it’s a cynical assumption. I’ve seen too much of human nature to not be cynical.

Besides, I didn’t say he killed a guy. I just said it was likely he was doing something he shouldn’t have ought to have done.

And since there are no answers, we’ll never know.

I DON'T BELIEVE YOU (AGAIN) [now with theme song]

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by can of corn on Aug 12, 2011 2:21 PM PDT up reply actions  

There is certainly the possibility he did something wrong. Perhaps even the probability. But neither of those should be enough to treat him as if he is guilty.

by BestHyperboleEver on Aug 12, 2011 3:01 PM PDT up reply actions  

Not to mention you could just as easily turn that same cynical eye upon the people who decided they no longer cared about justice once they got their money.

by BestHyperboleEver on Aug 12, 2011 3:08 PM PDT up reply actions  

I turned my cynical eye that way long ago.

The Giants can treat him as if he has shown poor judgment and can decide that they don’t want him in the organization. That’s their prerogative. Nobody is sending him to jail.

Are you suggesting that the Giants MUST give him a job back just because criminal charges were not pursued?

I DON'T BELIEVE YOU (AGAIN) [now with theme song]

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by can of corn on Aug 12, 2011 3:49 PM PDT up reply actions  

Not at all. It’s obviously their prerogative. But at this point the decision to give him his job back or not should be based on his ability as a baseball player/prospect. Not whether or not he was accused of a crime.

And if there is a contract in place (and Villalona is not found to have violated that contract), then it should certainly be honored.

by BestHyperboleEver on Aug 12, 2011 4:11 PM PDT up reply actions  

Are you suggesting that the Giants MUST give him a job back just because criminal charges were not pursued?

That really depends on the contract between them. At the very least, they can’t refuse to let him play and maintain their exclusive rights to him.

VAE PVTO DEVS FIO

by Bhaakon on Aug 12, 2011 5:11 PM PDT up reply actions  

At the time of his arrest it was commonly assumed that he was arrested because he had money, not because of witness’s to his guilt. He was there and had $$, so he gets jailed with a payoff to police and the dead persons family. En la America Latina, it could happen easily.

Go Giants

by Gianni on Aug 12, 2011 5:33 PM PDT up reply actions  

I posted on this over on Bay City Ball. The Giants are facing a problematic decision. If they do reinstate him and pay him the money, that’s one thing. But I can’t say he’s automatically a top prospect. He wasn’t doing well before he was accused of murder. Rumors swirled of bad work ethic and conditioning. So while he would get his career back in a legal sense, he’d be a 21-year-old Dominican with two lost years of ball behind him and a so-so career behind that. Scouts don’t look kindly on that sort of thing.

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by BaronVonCurrentEvents on Aug 12, 2011 1:39 PM PDT reply actions  

Those were the days.

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by BaronVonCurrentEvents on Aug 12, 2011 1:56 PM PDT up reply actions  

I really miss that team. It was even before Neal was good. Oh well. Buster is buster and Crawford should be somewhat useful. Also looks like Kiesch is heating up.

by capn on Aug 12, 2011 2:02 PM PDT up reply actions  

Boy, the way Glenn Miller played…

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by SFGuy on Aug 13, 2011 3:47 AM PDT up reply actions  

Guys like us, we had it made.....

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by nvsfg on Aug 13, 2011 11:45 AM PDT up reply actions  

I never thought Robert Perry or Andy Parrino had a chance to be honest. But that 7 guy for the SJ Giants has some potential.

by Mrbasepaul on Aug 12, 2011 6:29 PM PDT up reply actions  

Do you think that the bad work ethic and conditioning might be fixed if he’s given a second chance after coming so close to losing his baseball career and spending his life in jail? Or that it’s his personality to be fat and lazy? As an honest question, kind of like how people describe their transformations after a near death experience or hitting absolute rock bottom a la Hamilton.

by Mrbasepaul on Aug 12, 2011 6:32 PM PDT up reply actions  

I sure hope that this ordeal gives him a much needed overhaul. He’s undoubtedly talented but never could harness that talent. I think this type of thing would be the wakeup call he needs.

Supporting San Francisco Dugout since 2005 and Manny Burriss since 2006. Bringing you all your California League and New York-Penn League needs since 2009.

by BaronVonCurrentEvents on Aug 12, 2011 9:50 PM PDT up reply actions  

Yah I agree, going from celebrating with your friends and being a rich young baseball player to being accused of murder and losing everything is certainly a strong wakeup call. No doubt talented, which doesn’t just go away over night. Giants’ system is so bare right now, they need all the prospects they can get their hands on.

by Mrbasepaul on Aug 13, 2011 7:23 AM PDT up reply actions  

Unless I’m mistaken, Villalona’s lawyer specifies in this article that he doesn’t actually intend to sue the Giants, an organization that he loves, but to force their hand into letting him be able to pursue his baseball career. If he has a visa problem—and why should he have, since there’s no current charge against him?—then the Giants need to appeal to the State Department, as someone above points out. If he’s not much good, then they can release him; if he is good, then they can use him. As to paying off the family, that would makes sense if they were practicing extortion on him by having him accused of a crime he didn’t commit; so that fact of his doing so is immaterial to inferring his guilt or innocence. Given that American courts make a presumption of innocence, I would think that baseball fans might be equally equitable.

by campanari on Aug 12, 2011 2:18 PM PDT reply actions  

Given that American courts make a presumption of innocence, I would think that baseball fans might be equally equitable.

I’m sorry, I know the comment was heartfelt and honest, but this last line made me laugh out loud. Please tell me I fell into the chasm, because I can’t believe anyone who’s lived in this country and paid any attention to the news the last 20 years would believe that. (O.J. Simpson, Casey Anthony, that Vandersloot kid in Aruba everyone believes killed the American student.)

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by BruteSentiment on Aug 12, 2011 2:36 PM PDT up reply actions  

It’s a good thing popular opinion built upon incomplete, sensationalistic news coverage isn’t enough to convict.

by BestHyperboleEver on Aug 12, 2011 3:04 PM PDT up reply actions  

Too bad actual evidence sometimes isn’t, either.

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by can of corn on Aug 12, 2011 3:50 PM PDT up reply actions  

And shoddy evidence sometimes is

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by Viliphied on Aug 12, 2011 4:02 PM PDT up reply actions  

Personally, I like living in a society where the justice system, for all it’s procedural faults, demands proof. Not probability. But proof.

I would rather a potentially guilty person go free than a potentially innocent person hang.

by BestHyperboleEver on Aug 12, 2011 4:16 PM PDT up reply actions  

I’m getting the sense that you’re just interested in an argument.

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by can of corn on Aug 12, 2011 4:51 PM PDT up reply actions  

Sorry to give that impression. It’s certainly not my intention.

I just don’t like the idea that a young man can lose his future based merely upon an accusation.

by BestHyperboleEver on Aug 12, 2011 9:13 PM PDT up reply actions  

What kind of proof? Witness testimony, for instance, has been long established o be tremendously unreliable. In the strict sense of the word, you can’t “prove” anything based on a witness’s memory. I’d venture to say that nothing short of a video tape of the crime with a clear view of the perpetrator and all kind of documented physical evidence to support it would provide “proof”.

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by Bhaakon on Aug 12, 2011 5:14 PM PDT up reply actions  

That’s not how it works. I think you know that.

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by can of corn on Aug 12, 2011 5:21 PM PDT up reply actions  

I know it’s not how it works, I was points out the unrealistic nature of demanding “proof”.

Witnesses being enormously unreliable, though, is very real. Pointing this out on jury questionnaires has, I believe, gotten me out of serving on a jury at least twice.

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by Bhaakon on Aug 12, 2011 8:48 PM PDT up reply actions  

It’s a good thing popular opinion built upon incomplete, sensationalistic news coverage isn’t enough to convict.

Oh, I don’t disagree. And I hold the media institution accountable for the lack of ethics that they have fallen too, often while simultaneously increasing their collective sense of self-importance.

But the assumption that the average fan would hold to an ‘Innocent until Proven Guilty’ mindset is the kind that would make someone look naive.

"The knowledge of the game is inversely proportional to the price of the seat." ---Bill Veeck. •Read My Blarrrgh...er, um....Comic. That doesn't really come across so well when said sarcastically. The Lunatic Fringe

by BruteSentiment on Aug 12, 2011 7:24 PM PDT up reply actions  

et tu, Brute?

Simpson and Anthony were tried, so lots of evidence was presented. In fact, Simpson lost his civil trial and Anthony was just found responsible for her daughter’s death. Villalona hasn’t been tried, and the evidence against him is heavily tainted by the strong possibility of extortion. The cases have absolutely nothing to do with one another. If Villalona comes back to play baseball, and does so well, the fans seem to me—suppress your fit of the giggles here, please—likely to ascribe the accusation to extortion, and to cheer him on. He would have a future to win favor from his clientele, as Simpson and Anthony don’t, I assume. If Villalona comes back and plays badly, no one will care whether he shot someone in a bar or not.

by campanari on Aug 12, 2011 7:26 PM PDT up reply actions  

If Villalona comes back to play baseball, and does so well, the fans seem to me—suppress your fit of the giggles here, please—likely to ascribe the accusation to extortion, and to cheer him on. He would have a future to win favor from his clientele, as Simpson and Anthony don’t, I assume. If Villalona comes back and plays badly, no one will care whether he shot someone in a bar or not.

I don’t know what’s sadder:

• A country of people who don’t assume innocence until proven guilty; or

• A country of people who are willing to overlook possible guilt of a crime because the athlete accused of doing it is doing well for their team; or

• A country who doesn’t care about a person’s death or whomever’s responsibility in that incident because an athlete isn’t doing anything of note for their team.

I can’t say any of those options are worth giggling about.

"The knowledge of the game is inversely proportional to the price of the seat." ---Bill Veeck. •Read My Blarrrgh...er, um....Comic. That doesn't really come across so well when said sarcastically. The Lunatic Fringe

by BruteSentiment on Aug 12, 2011 8:46 PM PDT up reply actions  

I don't think it's particularly sad

People have biases, and those biases inform their opinions on individual matters, so even if as a rule they would be against/for something, that doesn’t mean they take that position in every case.

In this case, it’s not particularly fair to expect people to care that some dude got killed in the DR. If they hear about it, I would hope they wouldn’t feel any kind of joy at the news, but being unaffected isn’t particularly sad; it’s a foreign country, a person we don’t know and never will, there’s no connection. On the other hand, people do have connections to sports teams for good and bad. So it seems perfectly reasonable to me to think “Random Person X was killed today. This happened, there’s nothing to be done about it, and I am disconnected and therefore disaffected by the event. A person whose professional success affects my happiness in some way was involved. Therefore I, as a result of a desire to be happy, hope that this person is ideally not involved but less ideally involved and exonerated of wrongdoing so they can experience the professional success that will make me happy.” And there are lengths people will go to in order to ignore evidence of wrongdoing in an effort to be happy, which is something I understand and do not necessarily condone, but I don’t feel is wrong or evil. Our personal involvement in the defendant’s future makes the Villalona case different from Anthony or Laci Peterson, and while that may not be worth giggling about, I think it’s reasonable that we value our own happiness over other people’s to an increasing degree as they get farther away from us, to the point where we would be okay with justice not being served so we can be happy, even if we don’t consciously admit it.

Seth Rosin can hit the side of a barn with a baseball. From space.
Giants baseball: We're stupid enough to WIN that (TM)

by quincy0191 on Aug 12, 2011 11:16 PM PDT up reply actions  

im with you on this. it’s awful that somebody got killed in the DR, but people are dying this very instant. I don’t know any of them. If I, or really any of us, were to give any of the horrible things happening to people we will never know the thought they’d deserve if we did know them, we as people and society as a whole would be eternally crippled by grief.

I hope Angel is innocent and didn’t kill anybody. I hope he has matured from the experience and will be extra careful about the situations he puts himself in. I would like to see him play baseball for us and succeed.

However, if he is a real problem character guy, I just don’t think he’d be worth it. If the Giants believe he really did kill somebody, I could see them just not wanting to have anything to do with him.

by OrgoneDonor on Aug 13, 2011 4:05 PM PDT up reply actions  

A country who doesn’t care about a person’s death or whomever’s responsibility in that incident because an athlete isn’t doing anything of note for their team.

If we all cared about every death, we’d spend all day catatonic in bed. I’m never happy to hear about someone dying, and it makes me sad to know that it happens, but I really can’t muster up the energy to care about it. There’s too much stuff going on right around me.

Sharlon Schoop - honkbalspeler extraordinaire.
Trolls are like cockroach Nazis. Sure, you CAN try to reason with them, but they won't listen, and if you respond to them, they invade your Sudetenland.
Or something.
That metaphor got away from me.

by Viliphied on Aug 13, 2011 11:34 AM PDT up reply actions  

We disagree. When one doesn’t know if a person has in some past action been innocent or guilty, the rational response seems to me to make a sufficient presumption of innocence to put that past action in the very back of one’s mind. My point, only suggested and not clearly so, was that the American idea of presumed innocence allows the leeway for this response. Thus, without real evidence (as in this case), people do assume innocence until proven guilty, with the assumption of innocence taking the form of very much diminished concern about the crime. It makes good sense to me for “possible guilt of a crime” to be overlooked when truth can’t be approached, much less ascertained, and for the person’s present achievements (including team play in baseball) to be more significant, as more immediate and more determinable. It makes good sense to me for people to be largely unconcerned about a death that would otherwise be completely anonymous—these occur by the hundreds of thousands daily—and that might or might not have been caused by someone who might have had prominence as a baseball player but didn’t. None of this, to my mind, is sad. Is it really sad to yours, BruteSentiment, outside of this argumentative context?

by campanari on Aug 12, 2011 9:32 PM PDT reply actions  

We'll have to agree to disagree.

I do think it is sad, and I do think that you assumptions about the American public’s presumptions are very naive, with perhaps the only exception being people won’t care about the man who was murdered if Angel Villalona never develops.

But if Angel does succeed, you’ll see something that happened (albeit with a ‘crime’ of significantly lesser proportion to murder) with Bonds, Clemens, Palmeiro and others for the better part of a decade. In general (and with minority exceptions), whether or not you believed someone had done steroids was more about whether he played for your team or not than any evidence.

If Angel does make it back to the majors, with any team, I’m sure you will see fans in cities he visits bring up the catcalls of ‘Murderer’ with alarming regularity, and you won’t see it in whichever city he makes it in.

There’s a lot of things the legal system abides by, because it is ‘the authority’, and what it decides can affect a person’s life and livelihood. But the average person seems to relish choosing to not think that way, if to avenge perceived wrongs, or to display rebelliousness, or because they don’t get the benefit of full evidence figures. But to assume the majority of the American public will presume innocence is truly naivety.

Sorry, dude.

"The knowledge of the game is inversely proportional to the price of the seat." ---Bill Veeck. •Read My Blarrrgh...er, um....Comic. That doesn't really come across so well when said sarcastically. The Lunatic Fringe

by BruteSentiment on Aug 12, 2011 10:32 PM PDT up reply actions  

Yeah

People don’t presume innocence. They’re supposed to, but they don’t.

Every media-fueled and celebrity trial confirms this. OJ Simpson, Casey Anthony, Laci Peterson, Michael Jackson, Robert Blake, Phil Spector, R. Kelly – it doesn’t matter whether they’re found guilty or innocent, everyone ALWAYS thinks they’re guilty beforehand and continues to no matter what the verdict.

Seth Rosin can hit the side of a barn with a baseball. From space.
Giants baseball: We're stupid enough to WIN that (TM)

by quincy0191 on Aug 12, 2011 11:22 PM PDT up reply actions  

People aren’t suppose to presume shit, its the jury and legal system that needs to presume innocence.

Kickham where it hurts

by say hey nation on Aug 13, 2011 6:06 AM PDT up reply actions   1 recs

Beat me to it.

I DON'T BELIEVE YOU (AGAIN) [now with theme song]

I tweet (and occasionally blarg,) | Your San Francisco Giants: "Together We're Broken!"

by can of corn on Aug 13, 2011 8:25 AM PDT up reply actions  

phew good thing the jury isn't composed of people!

Wait a tick…

Do you really think it would be possible for OJ or Casey Anthony to get an impartial jury in a subsequent civil trial?

Also, I think there’s something similar going on w/ public reactions to highly publicized trials to what we see here when evaluating trades. You often hear things like “Simpson and R. Kelly were definitely guilty, any buffoon could see it.”, or “Alderson’s value could have gotten us much more than Sanchez”, but both of these reactions are based on incomplete information.

Sharlon Schoop - honkbalspeler extraordinaire.
Trolls are like cockroach Nazis. Sure, you CAN try to reason with them, but they won't listen, and if you respond to them, they invade your Sudetenland.
Or something.
That metaphor got away from me.

by Viliphied on Aug 13, 2011 11:39 AM PDT up reply actions  

Do you really think it would be possible for OJ or Casey Anthony to get an impartial jury in a subsequent civil trial?

Completely different beast. There’s not the same “presumption of innocence” in a civil proceeding. The burden of proof is significantly lower. The argument does not apply.

I DON'T BELIEVE YOU (AGAIN) [now with theme song]

I tweet (and occasionally blarg,) | Your San Francisco Giants: "Together We're Broken!"

by can of corn on Aug 13, 2011 4:10 PM PDT up reply actions  

It matters in everyday life, too

Wouldn’t you be reticent in hiring an accused murderer? Wouldn’t you be cautious when dating an accused rapist? It doesn’t necessarily matter whether people are actually convicted, in the court of public opinion, the accusation is often enough to damage a person’s reputation forever.

Seth Rosin can hit the side of a barn with a baseball. From space.
Giants baseball: We're stupid enough to WIN that (TM)

by quincy0191 on Aug 13, 2011 12:53 PM PDT up reply actions  

Simpson and R. Kelly were definitely guilty, any buffoon could see it.

Adoptive father of 18th round draft pick and future ace, BRANDON ALLEN

by Nnamdi Asomugha on Aug 13, 2011 6:35 AM PDT up reply actions  

I won’t prolong this discussion past this comment, dude. We agree, except about the sadness, maybe. What you think is sad, I think is rational. But we apparently agree that no one will really care whether he has killed someone or not. A substantial number of the general American public, we seem to agree, doesn’t care about proof, whether it’s a court case, evolution, or the Copernican system. On this principle, fans on the road will produce whatever catcalls come to mind, whether true wholly or in part or not at all, as long as they are nasty enough to satisfy the catcallers. If a player reputedly gets cuckolded or has a nose like Cyrano de Bergerac’s or (when I was a kid) happened to be black, that would be the substance of catcalls. A suspicion or accusation or rumor will do as well as a fact. Fans at home will defend him, and—this was my carelessly stated point—those Giant fans (the only ones I care about) would be able, overwhelmingly, to have clear consciences in defending Villalona, for the reasons stated. I’m sorry I didn’t say Giant fans in my first post, and am glad to have the opportunity to correct my lapse.

by campanari on Aug 13, 2011 9:45 AM PDT up reply actions  

Everyone's opinions.....

….on presumption of innocence and the facts of this case aside, I pretty much defer to the Giants’ judgment on this one. People on this site know a few details, but the Giants know a lot more about both the situation and Villalona’s character in general. Given that athletes tend to receive 2nd, 3rd, and 10th chances if they’re good at their sport, I’m guessing that if they don’t want him back the Giants have found:

1. he’s not all that good
2. there is more to this case than a false accusation.

IMO.

by Stoned Slacker on Aug 14, 2011 2:12 PM PDT reply actions  

It all comes down to why he hasn’t played this year, whether he can get a visa, what his contract status is, and the language of the contract. Those are questions that aren’t answered in the article as far as I can tell. I can imagine scenarios in which his claims are just as well as ones in which the Giants are totally clear, but it’s all speculation without more info.

VAE PVTO DEVS FIO

by Bhaakon on Aug 14, 2011 7:01 PM PDT up reply actions  

could also force the giants to make him an unrestricted fa

but not sure why the giant wouldnt want him back in the org

by bacci40 on Aug 15, 2011 3:30 AM PDT reply actions  

Ironically...

…in the path he was on (high-A ball two seasons ago), today could’ve been the day he was called up to the majors. Now he’s lost two years, plus it will take him a minimum of a year (probably two) just to get back to where he left off. Then again (as it was mentioned), he’s just 21 — making the long shot just a little less of a long shot to make it all the way back.

Different circumstances, but Josh Hamilton defied long odds.

Just sayin.’

-Dave

by MiGigantes on Sep 2, 2011 5:24 PM PDT up reply actions  

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