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Around SBN: Ryder Hesjedal Wins Giro d'Italia

Zito Hot in Final Rehab Start

Barry Zito finished his final rehab start in Fresno with a complete game shutout Tuesday.

Barry Zito took his 3-0 rehab record to the hill Tuesday night for the Fresno Grizzlies against the Salt Lake Bees in what appeared to be his final rehab start before rejoining the San Francisco Giants rotation.  The Giants plan to give Zito his next major league start when they travel to take on the Chicago Cubs in a double header on June 28th.   The Giants trip to Chicago will start a 14 game in 13 day stretch leading up to the All-Star break giving the Giants sound reason to continue with a 6 man rotation up to the break should they elect to do so.  Tough decisions lie soon after as the club will not need six starters after the All-Star break with the 5 July off days and the July 31st trade dead line looming.

Zito went the distance last night allowing only 2 hits, 2 walks and striking out 7 over his 9 innings of work for the Grizzlies and retired 15 straight from the Bottom of the 3rd into the 8th inning.  He threw 118 pitches surpassing his previous rehab high of 96 in his last outing for Fresno to finally reach Manager Bruce Bochy’s stated goal of at least 100 pitches.  His performance yesterday in the hot 100 degree San Joaquin Valley heat certainly showed the lefty is ready to go as he out-dueled his opponent Ryan Ketchner who went all 8 innings for the Bees allowing only 2 runs on 4 hits for the loss. 

Zito improved to 4-0 in his four rehab starts since suffering his 2nd inning April 16th right foot sprain injury in Arizona.  His rehab numbers combine to total a 2.20 ERA with 23 strikeouts to 7 walks over 28 2/3 innings. 

Brad Eldred gave Zito a 1 run lead in the 2nd inning with a one out solo homerun.  Darren Ford was also in the Grizzlies lineup after being optioned to Fresno on Monday and added a two out solo homer to pad the lead to 2 runs in the bottom of the 8th.

Poll
Given both the recent struggles by Jonathan Sanchez and Madison Bumgarner's horrible 1st inning Tuesday night, what do you think the Giants should do with the rotation upon Zito's return?
Run a 6 man rotation
32 votes
Look to deal Sanchez for a catcher
36 votes
Trade Zito and eat his nearly $56 million to get a return player
36 votes
Move Bumgarner or Sanchez to the pen and trade a reliever
13 votes

117 votes | Poll has closed

This FanPost is reader-generated, and it does not necessarily reflect the views of McCovey Chronicles. If the author uses filler to achieve the minimum word requirement, a moderator may edit the FanPost for his or her own amusement.

Comment 53 comments  |  0 recs  | 

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Sanchez is to good

When he is throwing strikes to trade away for a catcher that will barely increase the line-ups ability. Especially considering what we were asking for him a year or two ago.

by dtf94 on Jun 22, 2011 9:04 PM PDT reply actions  

I think a 6 man rotation would be pretty good since it would allow extra time for Lincecum and Sanchez to work out their problems. I’m not so worried about Bumgarner now with his velocity still up there in his last start, but with the Verducci Effect and all, Bumgarner’s innings should probably be controlled.

by Wolvkil23 on Jun 22, 2011 10:55 PM PDT reply actions  

I might be in this line. See how Zito pitches against Chicago, and play it by ear. If he pitches well, maybe stay with a five man and give the occasional starter a bye.

Proud father of Barry Bonds.

by Sabertooth on Jun 23, 2011 1:29 AM PDT up reply actions  

eh

I’d rather have the worst starter adjust to the bullpen than ask the 5 best starters to adjust to an extra day off all the time.

Just use Zito as a “swingman” when there’s a long stretch with no days off and so on.

May 29, 2010: Steven Revetria becomes Giants General Manager. The rest is history.

"118 elements, and still no stanfurdium"- carp, paraphrased

Bandwagons are fun- that's why people get on them in the first place.

by natteringnabob on Jun 23, 2011 6:56 AM PDT up reply actions  

I like this plan, personally. Second only to never seeing Barry Zito again.

That might be a little too harsh. Zito’s a good dude and all. So I like your plan best, then.

I'm thinking but nothing's happening.

by JRPhillips on Jun 23, 2011 10:19 AM PDT up reply actions  

Lincecum

Done. Hopefully Sanchey gets on track today.

by Splash-Hit on Jun 24, 2011 8:02 AM PDT via mobile up reply actions  

Good answer

All these ideas are clear examples of a fan who is still learning (as we all are, really) the nuances of baseball business. Trading a talent like Sanchez for a rental or backup catcher would be a horrendous move, as there are many other holes in the roster that won’t fix themselves at the end of the season.

I say give Zito Mota’s job (long relief) and have him pitch his way back into the rotation. It’s nice to have an out if Vogelsong decides he’s just an upgraded version of Ryan Sedowski .

Name one team that’s ever used a 6 man rotation successfully. I’ll sit here and wait for the answer.

by rcleverly on Jun 23, 2011 3:03 AM PDT up reply actions  

Still Learning.... Well I do know Sedowski just got the job done, while Volgelsong Dominates.

If you can’t tell Volgelsong is locked in yet then I guess I’m not the only one still learning the nuances of the game. A few more innings and he’ll be the NL’s ERA leader plus he is a pitcher not just a great stuff guy who’s been through the fire and is as mentally tough as they come.
Should you need a back up starter for the regular season due to injury, then you have Runzler being stretched out in Fresno and Wheeler in San Jose if you don’t like what else you see out there. Yes the current roster has holes but none as large as at backstop. Eil your current starter is unable to work with your staff ace as his arm is too weak to protect him against base runners. I never said a “rental or backup catcher.” I’m talking a true catcher like a Santana, Buck, Suzuki, Y. Molina, Olivo, Montero, Wieters, Avila, or Arencibia. Someone worth the time to learn the staff. There is no guarantee Posey will be ready at the start of next year or that a position change won’t be necessary. A second break or injury to the same ankle could be career ending with the tib-fib pin left in place.
Aside from that, Zito has already proven to be a slave to his routine and worthless out of the pen which is why he was left off the roster last October and did not work from the pen while on his rehab stint.

by Splash-Hit on Jun 24, 2011 5:24 PM PDT up reply actions  

Oooookay

Let’s break this down again:

1. Vogelsong is locked in. He’s pitching well in pretty much every sense of the word; he is getting lucky on balls in play, but his K and BB numbers are solid. Obviously he won’t be a sub-2.00 ERA pitcher the whole season, but he’s likely to post a sub-4.00 ERA, and that’s valuable on any team, especially at his salary and with two more years of team control. I don’t think fluke is the best answer anymore. He’s racked up too many very good innings to attribute his success to luck. You’re right there.

2. But Runzler and Wheeler aren’t even close to options for the sixth starter. Mota’s a better choice at this point; Runzler still isn’t even getting into the fifth inning (his last outing was a career-high 4.0 IP, which Mota’s beaten twice already) and he’s walked more than he’s struck out in AAA. Neither of those indicate he can be an effective starter; what it says is he can go two good innings or four bad innings and in either case you’re seriously hurting the bullpen. Wheeler is 20 and in SJ, and he’s got a lot of work to do; walking five batters every nine innings in A+ doesn’t bode well for his chances in the majors. The strikeout numbers are nice, but without control he won’t make it into the fifth either. Neither of these pitchers have indicated in any way that they’re ready to start in the majors leagues; every sign points to disaster, not to mention I’m sure Wheeler is about 20th on the depth chart for ML starts. Surkamp or Verdugo in AA or Loux or Kown in AAA are better in-house options than Runzler or Wheeler.

3. Disregarding the question of whether or not Eli/Stewart should be playing at C every day (probably not, but there aren’t really any options that are truly better and conceivably acquired), that list of catchers is close to insane. You’ve got the “future of the franchise” players (Montero, Wieters, Arencibia, Santana, Avila), the “also future of the franchise and a very good, long ML track record” players (Suzuki, Molina), the “we just gave him a three-year deal and aren’t trading him now” guy (Buck) and finally one potential option in Miguel Olivo. So let’s talk about him.

Olivo is hitting .230/.275/.403 for a .292 wOBA with workable defense (solid CS% and a few too many PB). There are some things to like, the low .273 BABIP and solid 14.1% HR/FB paired with an increase in fly balls for a power hitter. He looks like a good target until you look at Whiteside’s .221/.299/.372 slash line, which gives him a .291 wOBA, just about where Olivo is, and the fact that he’s got an even lower .266 BABIP. Whiteside doesn’t have Olivo’s power, but he walks a lot more and has been less lucky. He’s a worse defensive catcher probably, but the staff knows him and it seems like it could be hard to justify prying Olivo away from Seattle when they’re “contending” (one game under .500 but only 2.5 out of first) and he doesn’t seem like a real upgrade over Whiteside. Perhaps he’s half a win better, but it seems doubtful that’s worth his price considering the M’s probably aren’t looking to deal him. A career .302 wOBA player, he doesn’t have a lot of upside either.

Bottom line, the Jays, Tigers, Indians, Yankees, Orioles aren’t looking to deal potential star catchers for less than a king’s ransom, which seems kind of stupid considering Buster will be back next year and that would leave us just having to trade that guy again, probably at a loss as he’s less valuable with fewer years of team control and the Giants would have less leverage in any trade. And the Fish and Mariners probably aren’t looking to deal their starting catchers when they’re still looking at the postseason as an option. The Cards and A’s aren’t going to trade their franchise catchers. None of these guys are real options.

4. Assuming Posey will still be hurt doesn’t make a lot of sense, and the idea that he’s going to switch positions immediately is similarly ludicrous. He wants to catch, and the other real options (3B and 1B) are filled. The team can’t go around making deals assuming players are going to re-injure themselves or take longer to heal than originally thought, for the same reason you shouldn’t assume the opposite. You make decisions based on what you think will happen, you can’t possibly prepare for every potential problem. I know what I would do if there were an earthquake, but I’m not prepared for an alien invasion.

5. Zito was left off the postseason roster last year because he couldn’t help; there were better short relief options and we only needed four starters. But postseason rosters are not the same as regular-season rosters; you have designated pinch-hitters, things like that, and you manage differently with each game carrying more weight and more off days. So comparing last year’s postseason roster to this year’s regular season roster is disingenuous; it’s like comparing a bulldozer and a sedan. Each does well in its specific purpose, but it’s built for that purpose, and using one to do the other’s job isn’t going to work so well.

As far as his routine goes, I’m inclined to say fuck that. He’s being paid a hell of a lot of money and he’s not earning it, so if the Giants decide he needs to go to the pen he’s going to have to do that. At this point, the best thing he can do is whatever the Giants ask, since he’s not really in a position to be arguing that he could be more helpful in a different role. It’s about minimizing the damage he does, and he doesn’t get to rule out options.

Seth Rosin can hit the side of a barn with a baseball. From space.
Giants baseball: We're stupid enough to WIN that (TM)

by quincy0191 on Jun 24, 2011 6:20 PM PDT up reply actions   1 recs

In a word: yup.

Professional baseball analyst since 1980.
Wir sind gewohnt, daß die Menschen verhöhnen was sie nicht verstehn.—Goethe

by owlcroft on Jun 24, 2011 6:31 PM PDT up reply actions  

And even that idea isn’t the greatest, as I really doubt that Zito could do Mota’s job as well as Mota. That idea fundamentally is, make the bad swap that’s likely to hurt us the least.

MY DAD WAS WRONG!
MY BOY NEEDS TO THROW HARDER!

by Roger on Jun 23, 2011 7:07 AM PDT up reply actions  

the Mota article on this site indicates Mota is

as good as a replacement player. Zito seems to be the definition of a replacement player. Statistically, he can. Great outing aside, Mota is the definition of replaceable.

by rcleverly on Jun 23, 2011 11:21 AM PDT up reply actions  

nicely done

but you forgot to note that they will not pay $54M for him to go away. They won’t.

May 29, 2010: Steven Revetria becomes Giants General Manager. The rest is history.

"118 elements, and still no stanfurdium"- carp, paraphrased

Bandwagons are fun- that's why people get on them in the first place.

by natteringnabob on Jun 23, 2011 6:57 AM PDT up reply actions  

who’s getting worse and nearly 30

Are you talking about Sanchez or Zito? Zito is 33 which, if you’re talking about him, only bolsters your point.

Giants Baseball: Why Not?
"Things I never thought I'd see #47783: Schwarzenegger applauding Ryan Rohlinger" -- Your mother, Nov. 3, 2010.

by kdl on Jun 23, 2011 9:41 AM PDT up reply actions  

Zito

Man, I keep thinking he’s not that old, but he kinda is. That really does make things worse, and a Soriano deal better, since Soriano’s age (35, looked that one up) was the only real sticking point for the Giants.

Seth Rosin can hit the side of a barn with a baseball. From space.
Giants baseball: We're stupid enough to WIN that (TM)

by quincy0191 on Jun 23, 2011 7:28 PM PDT up reply actions  

Clear and convincing.

rec’d

Professional baseball analyst since 1980.
Wir sind gewohnt, daß die Menschen verhöhnen was sie nicht verstehn.—Goethe

by owlcroft on Jun 23, 2011 4:48 PM PDT up reply actions  

the bees suck

worst team in all the pcl

scouts are ripping the halos org for having nothing on their farm club

think its a coincidence that zito’s final 2 starts were against the bees?:

by bacci40 on Jun 23, 2011 1:31 AM PDT reply actions  

you forgot an option

Send the worst starter to the bullpen, and let him adjust to his “life’s work”. They’ve put it off long enough. He could have some value as a mop-up guy. Certainly not $50M worth, but at least not a total waste of a roster spot, and not jerking around the other 5 starters to compensate for a gigantic contract that none of them got.

May 29, 2010: Steven Revetria becomes Giants General Manager. The rest is history.

"118 elements, and still no stanfurdium"- carp, paraphrased

Bandwagons are fun- that's why people get on them in the first place.

by natteringnabob on Jun 23, 2011 6:59 AM PDT reply actions  

that said

I suppose if they were going to do the logical thing they’d have had him pitching in relief and not exclusively as a starter in these “rehab” games.

May 29, 2010: Steven Revetria becomes Giants General Manager. The rest is history.

"118 elements, and still no stanfurdium"- carp, paraphrased

Bandwagons are fun- that's why people get on them in the first place.

by natteringnabob on Jun 23, 2011 7:00 AM PDT up reply actions  

Boch essentially just said he was going to the pen on Pre-Game with Gary Radnich

The guy will have to earn his spot like any other fringe major leaguer. Contract or not.

by rcleverly on Jun 23, 2011 11:24 AM PDT up reply actions  

$50M mop-up guy

Because where mop-up guys are concerned, money is no object!

The thong is, it happened.

by Goofus on Jun 24, 2011 6:29 AM PDT up reply actions  

you're right

better to get fewer starts out of the 5 pitchers better than him.

May 29, 2010: Steven Revetria becomes Giants General Manager. The rest is history.

"118 elements, and still no stanfurdium"- carp, paraphrased

Bandwagons are fun- that's why people get on them in the first place.

by natteringnabob on Jun 24, 2011 1:00 PM PDT up reply actions  

Right now, the option that almost certainly would give us the most value in return is trading Vogelsong — but that’s kind of a crummy thing to do to the guy, plus a kick in the groin to the fans who are loving his story.

MY DAD WAS WRONG!
MY BOY NEEDS TO THROW HARDER!

by Roger on Jun 23, 2011 7:08 AM PDT reply actions  

I oppose this

I don’t think he’ll bring back the value he’s bringing us now. Too many teams would say “I’m not convinced”

The thong is, it happened.

by Goofus on Jun 24, 2011 6:30 AM PDT up reply actions  

Teams probably should say “I’m not convinced” but I’d be willing to bet that somebody out there wouldn’t say that. I’ve seen some pretty mediocre starting pitchers moved at deadline time.

MY DAD WAS WRONG!
MY BOY NEEDS TO THROW HARDER!

by Roger on Jun 24, 2011 9:03 AM PDT up reply actions  

Don't get me wrong

I think there would be interest, but doubt we could get equal value in return.

Count me as someone who has seen enough of Vogelsong to be convonced that he’s the real deal. I’d offer to buy out his 2012 arb year and offer him 2 years right now. If I’m right, he’d be even more valauble at the end of the season with more of track record, an “all star” label and signed for the next two year.

The thong is, it happened.

by Goofus on Jun 24, 2011 9:55 AM PDT up reply actions  

Well, of course, equal value depends on what value you place on him going forward. I wouldn’t want to bet that he’s going to continue to be 200 ERA+/6 WAR pitcher going forward. And if anybody would want to make a trade for him based on the notion that he will be a 200 ERA+/6WAR pitcher going forward, then I think you’d have to jump all over that deal.

MY DAD WAS WRONG!
MY BOY NEEDS TO THROW HARDER!

by Roger on Jun 24, 2011 10:04 AM PDT up reply actions  

Move Zito to the pen?

Madison is pretty dang good. Moving him to the pen would be crazy dumb.

by chilibean_3 on Jun 23, 2011 8:21 AM PDT reply actions  

I can almost garuntee

we see Zito sharing Mota’s job as long relief/ spot starter.

by rcleverly on Jun 23, 2011 11:27 AM PDT up reply actions  

I've been assuming if Zito goes to long relief, he takes Mota's roster spot

I don’t think you can carry them both…unless something like Casilla-for-Torrealba goes down

The thong is, it happened.

by Goofus on Jun 24, 2011 6:31 AM PDT up reply actions  

and

Bumgarner is 21 and has his whole career ahead of him to develop. Zito is running out the string and is what he is. Don’t risk the former for the latter.

May 29, 2010: Steven Revetria becomes Giants General Manager. The rest is history.

"118 elements, and still no stanfurdium"- carp, paraphrased

Bandwagons are fun- that's why people get on them in the first place.

by natteringnabob on Jun 23, 2011 2:00 PM PDT up reply actions  

how about we just keep zito on the DL then

by Wolvkil23 on Jun 23, 2011 1:34 PM PDT up reply actions  

OMG SETBACK!

May 29, 2010: Steven Revetria becomes Giants General Manager. The rest is history.

"118 elements, and still no stanfurdium"- carp, paraphrased

Bandwagons are fun- that's why people get on them in the first place.

by natteringnabob on Jun 23, 2011 2:00 PM PDT up reply actions  

It feels like this is an option

But it’s not very smart. We’d still have to pay Zito, but we wouldn’t be able to trade him for anything useful. It’s even worse than releasing him, since then maybe he’d get picked up by someone else and they’d pay the league minimum towards his contract and we’d save a couple million over a few years.

Trading Zito isn’t that bad a plan, the problem is it feels like it’s a terrible plan because we’d have to eat so much money or take on an equally bad contract. But then at least we’d get something for him; if we’re going to pay him anyway (which we pretty much are) we might as well extract as much value as possible. The annoying thing is that while he’s not a valueless asset, the contract prevents us from maximizing our return.

Seth Rosin can hit the side of a barn with a baseball. From space.
Giants baseball: We're stupid enough to WIN that (TM)

by quincy0191 on Jun 23, 2011 7:31 PM PDT up reply actions  

It’s not an option. He’s on a rehab assignments which by CBA rule can only be I believe 20 days long. At the end of that 20 days, the player must either be reactivated to the major league active roster or released (in the case of players who have options left they can activate them and then send them down without having to go through any corresponding roster moves, as they did with Darren Ford recently).

Zito’s first rehab game was June 6 at San Jose. If I have the number of days right, that means that Sunday something has to be done with him.

MY DAD WAS WRONG!
MY BOY NEEDS TO THROW HARDER!

by Roger on Jun 24, 2011 8:47 AM PDT up reply actions  

SUNDAY! SUNDAY! SUNDAY!

Let’s have Zito drive a monster truck over Lou Seal’s belly during the 7th inning stretch

The thong is, it happened.

by Goofus on Jun 24, 2011 10:03 AM PDT up reply actions  

CORRECTION

Looks like pitchers have a different set of rules from position players; they can stay on rehab up to 30 days. So that means a decision doesn’t have to be made this weekend. But there is that doubleheader hanging out there on Tuesday…

MY DAD WAS WRONG!
MY BOY NEEDS TO THROW HARDER!

by Roger on Jun 24, 2011 11:05 AM PDT up reply actions  

I assume they wouldn’t just keep him on the DL; they’d have to shuffle him back and forth and only have him spend maybe a few weeks on the active roster before he’s “hurt” again.

Seth Rosin can hit the side of a barn with a baseball. From space.
Giants baseball: We're stupid enough to WIN that (TM)

by quincy0191 on Jun 24, 2011 6:22 PM PDT up reply actions  

Well that sounds like a MLPA greivance waiting to happen, although team’s certainly do abuse the DL with impugnity these days.

MY DAD WAS WRONG!
MY BOY NEEDS TO THROW HARDER!

by Roger on Jun 25, 2011 5:15 AM PDT up reply actions  

I dunno

Players usually file those because teams are pulling stuff that’s keeping them from maximizing their earnings, not keeping them from playing all the time, and Zito’s salary wouldn’t be affected. I have to believe teams have abused the DL before, and if players really wanted to file a grievance it’d be pretty easy to win since they know they’re not injured. Just get a couple independent doctors to verify they’re fine and the case seems pretty open and shut.

Seth Rosin can hit the side of a barn with a baseball. From space.
Giants baseball: We're stupid enough to WIN that (TM)

by quincy0191 on Jun 25, 2011 9:59 AM PDT up reply actions  

Is there a single pitcher

on the current Giants staff that’s actually pitching worse than we expect Barry Zito will? I mean, how much sense does it really make to put Zito back on the roster at all? You know, the fact that we can’t leave him in AAA notwithstanding, I’m just curious if it really makes any sense at all to have Zito back.

I'm thinking but nothing's happening.

by JRPhillips on Jun 23, 2011 10:32 AM PDT reply actions  

Emmanuel Burris is losing his roster spot

More Miggy playing time and they’ll carry an extra long reliever. I don’t see any other option.

by rcleverly on Jun 23, 2011 11:28 AM PDT reply actions  

Ugh.....No More Miggy Migraine

The more I see of Miggy Migraine, the worse I feel even if this seems plausible. Can’t we trade him to that Menlo Park softball team that Byrnes was playing on? At least Burriss adds the element of speed on the basepaths and in the field.

by Drug Runner SF on Jun 23, 2011 2:29 PM PDT up reply actions  

yeah

But Miggy occasionally will get a hit. That’s more than can be said about Burriss. I think the actual answer lies in a trade. JJ Hardy perhaps.

by rcleverly on Jun 23, 2011 4:16 PM PDT up reply actions  

Burriss will hit at least as much as Tejada

And I have more faith in his defense (Burriss has pretty bad hands and a mediocre-at-best arm, but with range he probably makes more plays than Tejada) and he can play multiple positions, and PR for Burrell or Huff or something. Plus he’s a Giant beyond this season if we want him to be, and we almost certainly won’t want Tejada to be. Miggy’s complete lack of power destroys any possible advantage he might have had over Burriss, and I really think Tejada needs to be released. He’s just completely useless.

Seth Rosin can hit the side of a barn with a baseball. From space.
Giants baseball: We're stupid enough to WIN that (TM)

by quincy0191 on Jun 23, 2011 7:34 PM PDT up reply actions  

Sabean missed my birthday this year

He actually misses it every year. But I could have one birthday wish granted by my fairy Sabeanmother, it would be for the Giants to never again pick up a player who’s at least 35 and hand him a starting job.

Maybe it’s not a steadfast rule, but I think this should be a solid guideline for him to follow.

I'm thinking but nothing's happening.

by JRPhillips on Jun 23, 2011 10:42 PM PDT up reply actions  

An 8 man bullpen is frankly insanity. Especially in the NL where double switches and PH are an important element of the game. Personally I think a 7 man bullpen is a terrible use of your roster, but an 8 man bullpen is crazy. You’re not even trying to make good decisions at that point.

MY DAD WAS WRONG!
MY BOY NEEDS TO THROW HARDER!

by Roger on Jun 24, 2011 8:59 AM PDT up reply actions  

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