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Fact-checking Brian Sabean's Trade History

In a recent tweet, Sports Illustrated writer Jon Heyman claimed that Giants GM Brian Sabean doesn't like dealing prospects. 

This tweet came A DAY after former Giants prospect Francisco Liriano threw a no-hitter for the Minnesota Twins. So, Jon, let's revisit some of my favorite Sabean prospect trades.

I'll get the obvious out of the way first: Brian Sabean has changed. After years of trading prospects to build around Barry Bonds, the Giants have changed up their strategy considerably, but that's not to say that Sabean i totally against trading prospects. 

Buster Posey, Madison Bumgarner, Tim Lincecum, Brandon Belt, Jonathan Sanchez, and Matt Cain represent players that have or have not had trade rumors swirl around them in their Giants careers. And at some point in his career, Sabes may very well have pulled the trigger on some of the deals. 

Cain for Fielder. Sanchez for Fielder. Lincecum for Rios. Sanchez for (major league shortstop). We've all heard them. Yet I'm pretty sure we're all glad that none of those has happened so far. Anyways, on to the ones that have happened.

Star-divide

So, except in a select few cases, Sabean has done very well in recent years both picking up fringe prospects that have contributed and dumping prospects that may have had value but are on their way out of the good graces of the Giants scouting department. In no particular order:

1. Joe Nathan, Boof Bonser, and Francisco Liriano to the Twins for AJ Pierzynski (2003):

One of the biggest WTFFFFF moments of my baseball life. I realized this trade was wrong when it happened. I was 14. Pierzynski was a joke, a cancer, and a rental. Nathan emerged as one of the best closers in baseball. Boof Bonser still has as funny name, and is pitching in the Mets minor-league system. Liriano, as stated, just threw a no-hitter and is one of the best "if only he was healthy all the time" pitchers in the American League. Prospects traded, Giants lose.

2. Tim Alderson to the Pirates for Freddy Sanchez (2009)

This was hailed as another Nathan/Liriano trade, except this time the bad guy was an injured but still very friendly Freddy Sanchez, far from being the a-hole that Pierzynski was. Alderson was the number four prospect in the Giants system at the time. 

Then Alderson put up this line since joining the Pirates: 14-11, 5.34 ERA, 1.473 WHIP

And Freddy Sanchez did this to Cliff Lee, and all was forgiven. 

Prospect traded, Giants win this trade.

3. Ryan Vogelsong and Armando Rios to the Pirates for Jason Schmidt and Jon Vander Wal (2001):

Vogelsong was a promising prospect, but the Giants won this trade too, as Vogelsong lost a year to injury, and Schmidt became the ace of the Giants staff. Giants win further by signing Vogelsong to a minor-league deal this year and having him perform well so far. 

4. Jason Grilli and Nate Bump to the Florida Marlins for Livan Hernandez (1999)

Yes, part of the Marlins firesales, but Hernandez was the MVP, and the Giants got 746 innings of 4.44 ERA ball, including a few Opening Day starts, for 181 innings of middle relief. Giants win this one for sure.

5. Mike Villano, Joe Fontenot and Mick Pageler to the Marlins for Robb Nen (1997)

Another Marlins firesale pickup, Nen was dominant for the Giants until an arm injury sidelined him for good in 2003. Villano never made it to the majors. Fontenot never made it to the majors. Pageler never made it to the majors. Shades of the Dennis Eckersley trade, in which none of the A's players given to the Cubs made it? I think yes. Giants win.

6. Scott Barnes to the Cleveland Indians for Ryan Garko (2009)

Giants lose. Nobody knew who Scott Barnes was, but Ryan Garko was terrible. 

7. Yorvit Torrealba and Jesse Foppert to the Seattle Mariners for Randy Winn (2005)

Torrealba has developed into a starting backstop that has killed the Giants. Foppert was a great story but just never made it out of the injury woods. Randy Winn hit really well for two years and then forgot that he hit really well for two years. I'd say this is a wash.

 

There are a few more trades that we could look at, but I just don't know where this whole "doesn't like trading prospects" talk comes from. It's right there. He trades prospects more rarely now than before, and when he does, it usually looks pretty smart a little farther on down the road. I would more characterize is it as Sabean only dealing prospects that he knows are going downhill unless their name is Joe Nathan. 

 

This FanPost is reader-generated, and it does not necessarily reflect the views of McCovey Chronicles. If the author uses filler to achieve the minimum word requirement, a moderator may edit the FanPost for his or her own amusement.

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Most of those turned out well, as did the White Flag trade with Chicago. Others I’d add would be Scott Linebrink for Danny Darwin, the Sidney Ponson deal, the Mike Stanton trade and the Shea Hillenbrand deal.

Of course, if you changed the terms to “doesn’t like to trade valuable prospects, or highly rated prospects” or something then you could probably build that case a lot better. But yeah, it seemed an odd thing for Heyman to say.

MY DAD WAS WRONG!
MY BOY NEEDS TO THROW HARDER!

by Roger on May 6, 2011 1:12 PM PDT reply actions  

Good points all around

The Nathan/Liriano trade was only highlighted by the fact that they blossomed post-Giants career. Sabes and the front office have been pretty damn accurate about predicting prospect outcomes. What you say about the valuable prospects is true, though. Except for Alderson, none of those traded were really top prospects in the system.

"Ludwick's not gonna get it! Let's watch Sanchez go!" - Duane Kuiper
Archway Number Nine

by ArchwayNumber9 on May 6, 2011 1:20 PM PDT up reply actions  

Well Liriano blossomed later, but Nathan had been one of the most valuable players on the 2003 team (Only Schmidt, Jerome Williams, and Worrell had higher WAR than Nathan on the pitching staff, and he was pretty frequently talked about as good candidate to take over the closers position in 2004).

MY DAD WAS WRONG!
MY BOY NEEDS TO THROW HARDER!

by Roger on May 6, 2011 1:27 PM PDT up reply actions  

Weren't they concerned about injuries though?

I recall Nathan being thought of as an injury risk.

Seth Rosin can hit the side of a barn with a baseball. From space.
Giants baseball: We're stupid enough to WIN that (TM)

by quincy0191 on May 6, 2011 4:56 PM PDT up reply actions  

I think mostly they were overly pissy about his performance in the LDS

MY DAD WAS WRONG!
MY BOY NEEDS TO THROW HARDER!

by Roger on May 6, 2011 6:42 PM PDT up reply actions   1 recs

Ah yes, I believe that was where he came in, walked a guy in 4 pitches and got mad when Alou pulled him. I was overly pissy that day too.

Fate is inexorable

by howcanilose on May 7, 2011 10:53 AM PDT up reply actions  

In this line

Also it highlights to other crapastic part of the AJ trade. It is not that the players sent over did well it was more what was brought back did so little to impove the 25 man &40 man roster durring a time when the Bond’s Giants were jsut a carrer year or 2 away from LS & West really crapastic ( ’03-06).

The Giants are 2010 World Series Champs. … And in other news the forecast calls for a rain of toads, heavy at times, with moderate to strong swarms of locust and a high likelihood of a world quake. Details at 11.

by daveinexile on May 12, 2011 11:51 AM PDT up reply actions  

Actually, Linebrink was traded for 25 mediocre innings from an ageing Doug Henry in 2000, so not one of Sabean’s better moves. Darwin was part of the White Sox deal…

California Leaguers beware: Chris Gloor will strike you out faster than you can say "Quinnipiac".

by crazedcrustacean on May 6, 2011 9:30 PM PDT up reply actions  

Right. For some reason, I’m always confusing those two. They were both on the ’97 team and I twisted them all up into one entity somehow.

MY DAD WAS WRONG!
MY BOY NEEDS TO THROW HARDER!

by Roger on May 6, 2011 9:38 PM PDT up reply actions  

Thanks for all the hard work in digging up the history . . .

But the problem with this and other similar analyses is that it fails to consider salary and contract status and contract price. Take the Schmidt deal, which is one where Sabean gets huge amounts of credit generally. It was essentially a rent-a-player deal. Schmidt re-signed with the Giants. I’m sure it was something of an advantage in the off-season to have given Schmidt a test-run in the park. But Schmidt immediately escalated to market value, and presumably we could just as well have signed him on the free agent market. It’s not a bad trade, sure—Rios and Vogelsong didn’t amount to much. But we got a very limited value in exchange.

You could do the same analysis regarding the Randy Winn trade. Winn was floating around his market . . . slated to make $5MM via the club option in 2006. And then, based on the SSS of August-September 2005, Sabes signs him to 3 year extension at essentially $8MM/yr. If Sabes keeps him at the $5MM club option and then tenders him, he gets a couple of high draft choices and the Mariners-Giants deal for Winn looks pretty decent.

As to your main point, that Sabes is not averse to dealing prospects, you are of course absolutely correct. And Heyman hasn’t done his homework.

by NiceGuysFinishEtc on May 6, 2011 1:38 PM PDT reply actions  

Lincecum for Rios

I just can’t believe this was ever entertained. It would have been Pedro for Delino all over again.

Relief! I Thank you for your Lefferts.

by Cody_ransom on May 6, 2011 1:48 PM PDT reply actions  

I really don’t think Pedro for Delino gets its due consideration for Worst Trade of All Time. It really has an argument to make for the crown.

MY DAD WAS WRONG!
MY BOY NEEDS TO THROW HARDER!

by Roger on May 6, 2011 1:53 PM PDT up reply actions  

PedrLOL.


Who knows exactly at which number those two segments meet…could be anywhere…

LOL Dodgers.

1997-2000 is one of the most ridiculous stretches of all time. His ERA+ in 2000 was 291. Yes, 291.

Relief! I Thank you for your Lefferts.

by Cody_ransom on May 6, 2011 2:38 PM PDT up reply actions  

Yeah

He pitched amazingly for any era. But to do it while guys were hitting every other pitch out of the park was incredible.

Seth Rosin can hit the side of a barn with a baseball. From space.
Giants baseball: We're stupid enough to WIN that (TM)

by quincy0191 on May 6, 2011 4:58 PM PDT up reply actions  

Thanks for this ArchwayNumber9

Also: I’ve looked all over for a comprehensive list of Sabean’s trades. If anyone has one/knows where one is, I’d love to see it.

SF Giants' record in the eleven-year twenty-first century/Pac Bell era: five MVPs, two CYA, one ROY, the two highest single-season OPS of all time (and two of the other top eight), the single-season and all-time HR records, two NL Pennants, and ... one World Championship

by SnowLeopard on May 6, 2011 3:40 PM PDT reply actions  

Gracias

SF Giants' record in the eleven-year twenty-first century/Pac Bell era: five MVPs, two CYA, one ROY, the two highest single-season OPS of all time (and two of the other top eight), the single-season and all-time HR records, two NL Pennants, and ... one World Championship

by SnowLeopard on May 7, 2011 11:03 PM PDT up reply actions  

NP

Twitter Blog
My Son Drafted Your Son

by Gobroks on May 8, 2011 5:18 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions  

ooo there are some old stinkers I forgot about

Jacob Cruz and Steve Reed for Shawon Dunstan, Jose Mesa and Al Morman
Stan Javier for Joe Messman
Bill Mueller for Tim Worrell

although a good one not mentioned:
Felix Diaz and Ryan Meaux for Kenny Lofton

There is lots of meh here too…
Jerome Williams and David Aardsma for LaTroy Hawkins
Jeremey Accardo for Shea Hillebrand and Vinnie Chulk

Brian Sabean: Sing His Praises To The Heavens!
-------
PARPG- Indy post-apocalyptic roleplaying game that seems to have resurrected itself in my absence...

by zenbitz on May 16, 2011 11:41 AM PDT up reply actions  

j.t. snow trade was a win
ray durham trade was a win
russ ortiz trade was a loss
matt morris trade was a win
david bell trade was a win
ellis burks trade was a win
and as much as we all hate felix rodriguez, that was probably a win too.

Adoptive father of 18th round draft pick and future ace, BRANDON ALLEN

by Nnamdi Asomugha on May 7, 2011 9:48 PM PDT reply actions  

Burks

The Ellis Burks trade is my favorite of Sabean’s, but the prospects involved were the throw-ins, so it doesn’t really apply to this topic.

"The two worst things in football are: 1) They think that a 30-year old professional athlete has to be locked up in a hotel room, with a curfew, the night before a qame; and 2) They're right."
- Cowboy safety Cliff Harris

by achiappanza on May 8, 2011 8:04 AM PDT reply actions  

Vogelsong, Rios for Schmidt, Vander Wal. . .

. . . keeps on giving.

Schmidt signs a 3-yr, $47M FA deal with the Dodgers, gives them absolutely zero for the $$. Giants get a compensation pick for the Dodgers’ signing of Schmidt. Pick becomes Alderson, Alderson swapped for Sanchez. Sanchez instrumental as TGWTWS.

by betterthanbochy on May 8, 2011 9:49 AM PDT reply actions  

It’s like a mobius strip of screwing over the Pirates

by apistat on Jun 2, 2011 11:53 AM PDT up reply actions  

The Winn trade was a win, not a wash.

Even when his hitting started to go, the guy was an above average
right fielder What was the trade where we sent Roa out?

by bradleybear on May 8, 2011 6:06 PM PDT reply actions  

We never traded Roa. He came in the Williams/Kent deal, got sent to the minors and after a year or two in the PCL became a minor league FA.

MY DAD WAS WRONG!
MY BOY NEEDS TO THROW HARDER!

by Roger on May 8, 2011 7:12 PM PDT up reply actions  

Joe Fontenot

From the Robb Nen trade, made 8 starts for the Marlins in 1998, went 0-7, got hurt, and never pitched in the majors again.

by ben p on May 8, 2011 10:32 PM PDT reply actions  

I knew who Scott Barnes was…

/he said sulkily

Juan "Doesn't Cheat The Game" Perez, future CF for the World Champion San Francisco Giants.

by marcello on May 9, 2011 9:47 AM PDT reply actions  

I think I need more context for the Russ Ortiz and Shawn Estes trades because

I thought, especially in the first case, that the trade wasn’t necessary at all, but in both cases, the Giants got nothing useful in return. Yes, I’m calling out the usefulness of Tsuyoshi Shinjo.

by Every6thDay on May 12, 2011 10:32 AM PDT reply actions  

Damian Moss 115 IP says "Hi"

The Giants are 2010 World Series Champs. … And in other news the forecast calls for a rain of toads, heavy at times, with moderate to strong swarms of locust and a high likelihood of a world quake. Details at 11.

by daveinexile on May 12, 2011 12:05 PM PDT up reply actions  

at the time

the Russ Ortiz trade was a “salary dump”.

Estes for Shinjo/Relaford is by definition a garbage swap…. Estes went on to put up ~4 WAR in 4 years for >$20M.
Shinjo actually put up 1.4 WAR – most of it UZR based for the Giants in 2002 (not his fault he was DH’d).

Relaford was swapped for David Bell – who was never my favorite player but had a nice year for cheap and disappeared. So, win for Sabester there.

Brian Sabean: Sing His Praises To The Heavens!
-------
PARPG- Indy post-apocalyptic roleplaying game that seems to have resurrected itself in my absence...

by zenbitz on May 16, 2011 11:49 AM PDT up reply actions  

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