The Mishandling of Brandon Belt
The successful development of Buster Posey and Pablo Sandoval along with the unsuccessful development of John Bowker and Nate Schierholtz tells us something about the Giants brass, they don't know how to develop position players. In fact, they're so bad it's almost criminal. Even when they get it right, they do it wrong. They're like the little old lady who invested her life savings in Google just because it's fun to say. Sure she's rich now, but I wouldn't encourage you to take stock tips from her.
Not convinced? Rembember when they called up Buster Posey the first time? It was September of 2009, the Giants had a beached whale playing catcher and hitting cleanup, sure the ball sometimes went between his legs because he couldn't reach it and sure he would go on to have a very Dunston-esque OBP of .285 that year, but he was money in the CLUTCH, dare I say it, he was Big Money and we all know that "the money lies in the RBI's." Given all that I can kind of understand sitting Posey on the bench during his September call-up, after all, it was the middle of a playoff race and we all know that rookies will wilt under that kind of pressure. But when we saw Eli Whiteside strode up to the plate late in a 9-2 game, we knew it was more than that: the Giants have no clue how to develop position players.
The following season the Giants best hitting prospect since William Nuschler Clark was sent down to the minors to start the year and learn how to catch big league pitching in AAA. There was a lot of speculation that the Giants were just trying to avoid giving Posey super-2 status after getting hammered in arbitration by Tim Lincecum, which seemed reasonable. Maybe not what some people would have done, but at least reasonable. When the Giants then called up Posey in late May, well before he would have needed to be called up to avoid super-2 status, it was once again apparent: the Giants have no clue how to develop position players.
The Giants other success was/is Pablo Sandoval. Can you believe someone thought he could be an everyday big-league catcher? Even then the Giants moved him to 3B despite his rather rotund frame at the time. When Sandoval made the position swap the Giants starting 1B was Travis Ishikawa, so obviously Sandoval was blocked there. The Giants "tried' to get him in to a conditioning program, but it failed. It took a rather abysmal 2010 season for him to finally get in to shape. Shouldn't someone have seen that this was going to be an issue when he was in A ball and made some changes there, after all the club has a lot more leverage with a late round pick at San Jose than they do with a guy switch-hitting big league superstar. It's a minor quibble I'll admit, but it was about the only decisions the Giants ever had to make in regards to Sandoval.
The failures have been plenty and well documented. From John Bowker losing his starting RF job after 50 or so PA's, to Nate Schierholtz who still hasn't gotten a chance to play everday, but those are the recent examples to just focus on them is to do Tony Torcato and Damon Minor a disservice. How can we forget about McCarthy and Niekro, Linden and Lewis or even Dallimore and RyRohl. The Giants flat ass suck at developing position players.
So now I can't help but believe that they somehow lucked into Brandon Belt, but instead of actually playing Belt or allowing him to get more PA's and cut down on his K rate and/or improve against left-handed pitchers, the Giants brain trust has decided to call him up to sit him on the bench. And why wouldn't they, when you've got Aubrey Huff sporting a .270 wOBA and Pat Burrell posting a -59.1 UZR over the course of his career, it's hard to sit those guys down.
I know that there's currently a conspiracy theory floating around about the Giants "easing" Belt in to Huff's spot, but given the way the Giants have developed position players in the past I think that's giving them a bit too much credit. In fact, you might just about be able to squeeze that credit into the grand canyon. Yes, TGWTWS, and I played along with that line of thinking up until now, but the evidence is too great to live under that delusion forever. The Giants 3 highest paid players (Zito, Rowand & Huff) might be their worst, except that they signed Migsucky this offseason, but once he's gone their 3 highest paid players will be their worst.
Whenever the Giants are clinging to a tight lead who does Bochy bring in, the best reliever in baseball Sergio Romo? Of course not! The always reliable Guillermo Mota? As if. The closer, Brian Wilson, he of the facial gerbal farm? No way, it's Jeremy "Cash'em in" Affeldt, who outside of one appearance in the playoffs last year has looked pretty bad for about a year and a half, but what makes that criminal is that Sergio Romo has pitched all of 16.1 innings this year, while Affeldt who struggles to actually get people out has pitched 18.0 innings. I know that this has nothing to do with the Giants developing positional players, but it pisses me off and confounds me to no end.
In summation, I know they won yesterday, but everytime I see a picture of Brandon Belt I nearly lose my mind. This is so wrong that I feel like I should start a letter writing campaign or something else equally trivial and over the top. TGWTWS in spite of Bork of Sabes not because of them and Brandon Belt is proof of that.
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Is it a development issue or a managing issue once they've been called up?
Looks like there are a lot of good player developing in A through AAA, I just don’t think Bochy is the right guy to handle them once they hit the bigs.
It’s pretty obvious after a few years that Bochy has very little patience with inexperience, so I think the “gritty gamer veteran” touchstone actually smooths out his managing approach. I shudder a little just thinking about the day-to-day jumble of rationalized match-ups we’d see if he had an entire team of youngsters, whether it’s “hot hands”, “lefty-righty-lefty-righty”, “play your way through the slump” or whatever.
Surely you don 't believe. . .
. . .Torcato, McCarthy, Niekro, Linden, Lewis, Dallimore and RyRohl would have become legitimate major leaguers had they been developed in another system. Absurd!!!
The Giants’ weakness with regard to position players is manifest on draft day – not during the ensuing years. You can’t make a silk purse out of a sow’s ear. Hopefully, the team is drafting better with Bobby Evans in charge.
And you’re assessment of the handling of Buster Posey is flat wrong. He DID need development time in AAA. He was afforded six or seven weeks of tutoring by a former major league catcher and one of the best managers in the Giants’ system. Everyone forgets that Bengie was putting up some very good offensive numbers thru the first week of May, at which point his numbers went south. Hence, the Posey call-up. Perhaps you forgot how the season played out: TGWTWS. How can you possibly quibble with that?
by betterthanbochy on May 31, 2011 11:12 AM PDT reply actions
Ends justify the means!
Ends justify the means!Ends justify the means!Ends justify the means!Ends justify the means!Ends justify the means!Ends justify the means!Ends justify the means!Ends justify the means!Ends justify the means!Ends justify the means!Ends justify the means!Ends justify the means!
For the thirteen time in 3 or one evers, I found myself toothlessly thinking about Manny Ramirez.
In baseball
They do.
This isn’t a moral question here; we’re not asking if the ends justify the means where the ends are world peace and the means are killing the entire human population. It’s practical. The best way to judge if a player is good or not is how they perform. These are the ends. Therefore whatever (okay, not WHATEVER; don’t think I’m saying that if the path involves mutilating kittens I’m okay with it) path the player took to get to being good was the right one. Or at least it’s hard to argue against it, since the player ended up good.
The problem with baseball is that nobody knows the right thing for every player. There’s a general system of belief on how to develop players, and it works a lot of the time, because by and large people are the same. But to argue that each person is exactly the same, so a team should treat them that way, is stupid. Hell, even the general system changes all the time because one player took a wonky development path and ended up great. Prospects are pretty damned hard to predict; just go look at the top prospect lists from ten years ago. Half those players ended up terrible. Or look at guys like Josh Hamilton or Andres Torres; weird development paths that ended up with two very good players. What worked for them wouldn’t work for a lot of players, and maybe what worked for a lot of players wouldn’t work for them.
There’s an argument that the weird development paths are worse than the normal ones even for players that took them and ended up good; they could have been better players. To that, I ask about the players who took the normal paths and ended up bad, or to prove that a player with a weird development would have been better with a normal one. It’s not so much that the argument is wrong, but that it’s impossible to prove it’s right, and with the knowledge that the weird path ended up in a good place I’m more inclined to say things went well overall.
Basically, I’m of the opinion that you can’t look at Josh Hamilton, AL MVP, and say that the franchises which developed him failed. Because they didn’t; he became one of the best baseball players alive. He got there in a weird way, but the important part is where he got to, not how he got there, so yeah, the ends justify the means.
Seth Rosin can hit the side of a barn with a baseball. From space.
Giants baseball: We're stupid enough to WIN that (TM)
You can argue that...
yeah the real matter is whether or not a player reaches his potential not how he reaches it but to say that a team if off the hook for shoddy development programs because Player A panned out is a little myopic.
In Buster’s case the ends might justify the means. He is a great player and was probably going to be a great player regardless of how he was brought along. Looking at it in broader terms though, does TGWTWS justify the improper handling of prospects? I don’t think so.
For the thirteen time in 3 or one evers, I found myself toothlessly thinking about Manny Ramirez.
Am I the only one who's seeing the irony in this:
does TGWTWS justify the improper handling of prospects?
If you’re winning World Series, I’m pretty sure you didn’t mishandle prospects that badly. MAYBE the team could have been just as good or better if they hadn’t “mishandled”, and sure the Giants got lucky in some respects last year (as does any WS winner), but that’s just a maybe. We know that having things go the way they did results in a championship, so IMO messing with that, even if it should result in a better team, isn’t a good idea; you already ended up with pretty much the best result possible, and more wins=lower draft position, so I don’t really see how going 95-67 with a WS win is better than going 92-70 with a WS win.
But more problematic is that there’s no book on developing prospects. You’re saying the prospects were mishandled, but that’s only based on a few general ideas we have. Really, I don’t see a way you can call any prospect mishandled unless you can predict the future; teams do what they think is best to get the most out of every player, and sometimes they’re wrong in the choices they make, but you have little reason to think your method is better and can’t know if your method would have produced more or less or the same.
Seth Rosin can hit the side of a barn with a baseball. From space.
Giants baseball: We're stupid enough to WIN that (TM)
I don't even have a method.
I guess my point is that it appeared that Posey got dicked around at the end of 2009. Now one could make the case that 2009 was a calculated move by Sabean and Co. to introduce the kid to the bigs but not put pressure on him. You said in one of the comments below that
“The logic isn’t great, and it seems trying to figure out a scenario in which it makes sense is more convoluted than assuming they messed up.”
I am in this camp. You are not. That is fine. My guess is that Sabean wanted to get him in there but Bork wanted to go with his vet. The end product is his clock got started early. Now you make the case that they didn’t fail in his development. That is spot on. They didn’t fail but they also didn’t do a great job handling him in this regard.
The main argument here is whether or not you can step on your dick and still have a player turn out well and win the WS. Yeah you can but you can also royally fuck up a player that way too.
For the thirteen time in 3 or one evers, I found myself toothlessly thinking about Manny Ramirez.
I'm not really in the camp that they didn't fuck with him
I just don’t know. Things ended up pretty good, so I’m not complaining, but maybe they could have gone better. The ultimate point isn’t that you’re wrong and they handled him correctly, but that I don’t think you should really be claiming they screwed him up when he won a WS and ROY. The end results are far more indicative of the success of a process than analyzing the process; after all, the only way to evaluate a process is by figuring out which ones produce the results you want.
Seth Rosin can hit the side of a barn with a baseball. From space.
Giants baseball: We're stupid enough to WIN that (TM)
Yeah
I think we agree. Was he a success? Yup. Could they have handled it better? Yup.
I think where we differ is that you attribute his success to the system and I attribute his success to his unbelievable skill. I don’t think that you can handle most prospects like the Giants did Posey and expect them to turn out like Posey.
So did things work out? Yup. Does the fact that TGWTWS and Posey turned out okay mean that the Giants should continue to handle prospects in the way that they have? I don’t think so.
*Is it annoying when you ask yourself questions and then answer them right away? No way!
For the thirteen time in 3 or one evers, I found myself toothlessly thinking about Manny Ramirez.
Like others have said you left out the big truth there…for a number of years we just weren’t focused on drafting postion players. They fell in love with drafting pitchers which worked out for us well enough as 4/5’s of our rotation (currently technically 100%) were “homegrown” guys. It was only about 7 years ago that the organization finally really started focusing on position drafting again. Posey, Sandoval, Belt, Crawford, Ford, Gillaspie, Charlie Culberson etc.
I certainly agree there have been guys that might have been better had they been given a fair shake at different times but for whatever reason werent. Obviously there was something going on behind the scenes that fans and the media werent privey too (Kevin Frandsen and Nate come to mind). In regards to Nate though I remember the one stretch a couple years ago where he was the starter he was hitting around 300 then got injured. He was out for like a month or two then came back and they have pretty much been playing a bench role ever since..until this year. I think the Rowand contract can be big to blame on that. The Organization took a HUGE step forward last year and carrying into this year with that however, turning Rowand’s starting job over to Torres, then Sitting Zito out of the playoff run. They have developed guys fine, but in the past there has been a management issue at time that might have come down to the overpaying of veterans not worth the money. Feeling obligated to play guys to justify the money being spent on them that shouldn’t have been spent on them in the first place. Good to see them getting passed that and sitting guys if they aren’t getting the job done and letting someone else have a shot at seeing if they can step in.
by dannyschmanny on Jun 13, 2011 2:00 PM PDT up reply actions
Brian Sabean ladies and gentlemen....
You think it was a good idea to call Posey up to sit on the bench while giving garbage time AB’s to Eli Whiteside? Also, Posey is one player, one fucking player in almost 20 years that the Giants developed in to a star. I mean even if you just pulled up the Baseball America top prospects list and indsicriminately drafted position players over that same length of time, I would imagine that at least more than one of them would work out. Before Sandoval the last everyday non-star player they drafted was Pedro Feliz, you’re right they don’t draft well, but they also don’t develop well.
Why in the name of all that is holy would you bring up Belt to sit on the bench? In what alternated universe is that even a remotely good idea?
I still believe in Santa Clause and Bowkermania!
Proud adoptive parent of Brett Bochy, he's my boy now Bruce!
by Giant Torture on May 31, 2011 11:38 AM PDT up reply actions
Perhaps you forgot how the season played out: TGWTWS. How can you possibly quibble with that?
Oh how I hate this “argument”.
I DON'T BELIEVE YOU (AGAIN)
I tweet (more often than I blarg).
by can of corn on May 31, 2011 12:21 PM PDT up reply actions
Sustained!
Baseball players are smarter than football players. How often do you see a baseball team penalized for too many men on the field?
There are two ways to argue that the Giants didn't fail at managing Posey. Both lead to obvious retorts.
And you’re assessment of the handling of Buster Posey is flat wrong. He DID need development time in AAA. He was afforded six or seven weeks of tutoring by a former major league catcher and one of the best managers in the Giants’ system.
OK, you’ve chosen this one.
Then your unanswerable question: what was the point of bringing him up in 2009? The Giants wasted a month of service time and made it much more likely Posey will be a Super-2, hurting the team in the future, all for a player who, under this premise, was not ready.
See, there’s no way out. No matter which way you argue, it becomes evident that Sabean and Bochy made a mess of things.
Adoptive father of Jose Casilla.
Not that I believe this
But here you go:
Buster Posey needed two things toward the end of 2009: to experience a playoff atmosphere with no pressure, so he could get used to it without it getting to him (making him more comfortable in the future), and more developmental work behind the plate. Bringing him up in 2009 accomplished the first goal, and playing him would have not only put pressure on him – which they were trying to avoid – but hurt a team trying to make the postseason by putting his unready glove on the field. So he got called up and sat on the bench. They also couldn’t have waited until the beginning of 2010 (having him work on his defense through September 2009 instead of sitting on the bench in SF) because a) there is no playoff atmosphere in the first few months of the season and b) they couldn’t assume the team would be competitive; it probably would, but there’s no guarantee.
So he got called up for the last month of ’09 and then sent back down to start 2010 to work on his defense. A few months into the season, they deemed his glove ready and called him up. After some time at first to get used to actually playing in the majors instead of just being there, they traded Molina and installed him full-time behind the plate.
Again, I’m not saying this is how the thought process went. Maybe it was sloppy and illogical and they were just doing what felt right at the time. But it’s kind of hard to argue that they failed in developing him with that ROY and ring sitting on his mantlepiece.
Seth Rosin can hit the side of a barn with a baseball. From space.
Giants baseball: We're stupid enough to WIN that (TM)
If they didn’t bring him up to play him, couldn’t they have brought him along with the team in September, to practice with the team, and run the drills, without putting him on the roster?
Adoptive father of Jose Casilla.
First, I’m not sure they can. Second, I’d imagine he has to be on some team’s roster, and if he is, I’m not sure he can be in SF. Third, they may have wanted him to be able to play in blowouts and that didn’t happen for some reason.
The logic isn’t great, and it seems trying to figure out a scenario in which it makes sense is more convoluted than assuming they messed up, but there are situations in which Posey was handled just fine. Besides, hindsight is 20/20; maybe they thought bringing him up would serve a purpose, then changed their mind or the situation changed or whatever.
Seth Rosin can hit the side of a barn with a baseball. From space.
Giants baseball: We're stupid enough to WIN that (TM)
AAA season is over in early September and AFL doesn't start until October.
So kindly please tell me just what other productive developemnt activity you think the Giants should have done with Buster Posey in September 2009 that they failed to do?
I don't know, maybe, do everything they did without placing him on the roster?
If he isn’t going to actually play for the team, why waste service time?
This doesn’t prevent him from joining the team, hanging out with the fellas, doing drills with the club, and generally having a good time up with the big club. Or am I missing something really important?
Adoptive father of Jose Casilla.
He can not be in the dugout if he is not on the roster.
Even more important, the CBA does not allow this roster shadowing you are suggesting as the union correctly views this as cheating the player out of the pay and service time he should be entitled to.
IIRC, Posey was brought up in 2009 for no other reason than they were essentially playing with only one catcher on the roster because Molina was doing some serious malingering in the trainer’s office with a sustained minor injury and, it was rumored, simply refused to take the field for two or three days on end. The Posey move was either a) pragmatic — they needed a backup catcher; or b) a shot across Bengie’s bow.
MY DAD WAS WRONG!
MY BOY NEEDS TO THROW HARDER!
LIGHT THE FIRE UNDER HIM
Don't think he can cut it in the bigs? Brock Bond will be the bigger man and walk walk walk away.
I do indeed believe
than Todd Linden would have bloomed into a useful major league player had he had his 2005 AAA season in another team’s organization, and was handled the right way the next year.
SF Giants' record in the eleven-year twenty-first century/Pac Bell era: five MVPs, two CYA, one ROY, the two highest single-season OPS of all time (and two of the other top eight), the single-season and all-time HR records, two NL Pennants, and ... one World Championship
Nopesies
I remember thinking at the time – man they sure are yo-yo-ing this guy around (n all fukkin wid his head, mang). I remember thinking to myself, other orgs probably would just let him play for a bit. And I remember thinking – he’s clearly talented, but it’ll be a miracle if he can deal with all the craziness, stay focused, and establish himself. And guess what: he didn’t.
SF Giants' record in the eleven-year twenty-first century/Pac Bell era: five MVPs, two CYA, one ROY, the two highest single-season OPS of all time (and two of the other top eight), the single-season and all-time HR records, two NL Pennants, and ... one World Championship
Where are all these mythical organizations that keep playing rookies with .600 OPS and who K in more than 25% of their PA? Because I got to tell you, I’ve been following the game for more than 50 years and I’m don’t know of any teams that have gained a reputation in that time for being overly patient with struggling rookies. Who gives someone striking out, say 29% of the time (as Linden did in his first extended major league experience in 2005) an extended starting job of 2 months or so? No team that I know of frankly.
(Also, it’s worth noting that for all his promise, Todd Linden’s first THREE shots at the PCL were entirely underwhelming. The notion that he was a can’t miss really isn’t borne out by his draft position nor his minor league career. Both suggest a player with potential who could possibly develop into a productive starter, but not an odds on favorite to do so).
My problem with all of these “bad development” arguments is their inherent tautological nature. They can’t be proven; they can only be asserted. And consequently arguing fer or against them is just futile. Really is there even any way to know or rationally argue that Pittsburgh failed in their development of Jose Bautista and Toronto succeeded? It appears that that’s the case but is there anyone who would claim to know how or why?
MY DAD WAS WRONG!
MY BOY NEEDS TO THROW HARDER!
Didn't have a reputation for thinking he was great
…and not being receptive to coaching?
The thong is, it happened.
There was one instance in particular that stands out for me – he hit a soft grounder, and just kind of jogged slowly towards first, not even bothering to run it out. Even grizzled vets run those things out, and he just couldn’t be bothered. I wrote him off then. He didn’t last much longer on the roster. I don’t think those two happenings are unrelated.
I DON'T BELIEVE YOU (AGAIN) [now with theme song]
I tweet (more often than I blarg).
The only rookie I can think of that kept getting playing time...
is Dustin Pedroia. He was not doing very well during his first 50 games (last couple months of 2006, Mar/Apr of 2007), he was hitting under .200 the whole time, but the Red Sox kept playing him because he was one of their top prospects and they knew he would get better. And suddenly in May of 2007 he got better. WAY better. He was struggling BAD, but the Red Sox put him out their every day. They didn’t start him one day, then bench him for two days, then use him as a pinch hitter one day, then bench him for a couple days. They played him, and he righted the ship.
I’m not sure why Aubrey Huff and Miguel Tejada are getting every chance to do badly. They rarely sit on the bench, and they’ve done nothing but look horrible. Today they’re the #2 and #4 hitters! Tejada, the literal worst hitter in baseball, is in the #2 spot! Huff rarely gets taken out of the 3 or 4 spot, but how many times do you think Belt would get to weakly ground to 2nd before he’s benched?
It makes me unhappy.
Huff's getting the chance
Because he was one of the best players in baseball last season and Belt being out means no other 1B on the roster. Tejada is earning a bench role, but again Fontenot is on the DL and I don’t want to play Crawford or Burriss at third. Once Pablo is back he should be benched, though.
Seth Rosin can hit the side of a barn with a baseball. From space.
Giants baseball: We're stupid enough to WIN that (TM)
I believe your whole take on Buster’s cup of coffee in 2009 is off base. He was brought up specifically to get acclimatized to the ML atmosphere, become more familiar with the team and its personnel, and to get a bit of rest before the AFL. It went exactly as planned and worked out well. Pointing to a ROY, World Cahmpionship season as proof the Giants don’t know how to develop youngsters is logically dicey – what would have constituted a good season?
2010 World Series Champions!
Adopted 'nephew' to the ever avuncular and always awesome Jon Miller
by Johnny Disaster on May 31, 2011 11:51 AM PDT reply actions
It’s possible that Buster’s cup of coffee is off base, so I’ll give you that. But the ends do not justify the means with regards to his development last year. The Giants squeeked in to the playoffs and had their arguably best player playing in Fresno for the first two months of the year. To me that’s proof that the one, single, time that it went right they still did it wrong. To me their development issues go a lot further based on the fact that they’ve developed exactly two everyday players in the 14 years Sabean has been GM. That’s it, two players, and their treatment of Belt this year is further evidence that they don’t know what they’re doing.
I still believe in Santa Clause and Bowkermania!
Proud adoptive parent of Brett Bochy, he's my boy now Bruce!
by Giant Torture on May 31, 2011 12:09 PM PDT up reply actions
It seems everyone keeps forgetting that catching prospects don’t learn to call games until they start their professional careers. Meaning that in HS and college they don’t call the pitches. That is a huge aspect of the position. His bat and defense may have been ready but was his ability to call a game ready (especially with the pitching staff that he would be tasked to handle?) I absolutely believe that Posey’s development was not mishandled and you can’t reasonably claim that it was without being privy to all the facts. Unless of course you are a member of the organization and know all of the facts. Calling him up in September means he gets to meet the pitching staff. Gets to know their pitches. Gets to know how they like to pitch. Gets to know how to read the scouting report on players at the ML level. ETC ETC ETC. Not time wasted. Not development wasted.
by FutureDaydream on Jun 11, 2011 11:54 AM PDT up reply actions
Not to split hairs. . .
. . .but I don’t think Sandoval was a draftee. He was signed out of the DR as a teenager.
As to Posey’s 2009 call-up. Did it really retard his development by not getting Whiteside’s AB in a 9-2 blowout?
The thinking behind his 2009 call-up: his minor league season was over, let’s give him a taste of the major league lifestyle, the first-class travel, hotels, etc. to foment a little more hunger to make the show. Let’s give him a chance to meet some of the guys: Lincecum, Cain, Sanchez, etc., and let’s watch him, see how he fits in.
I think you’re making WAY too much of a missed opportunity to get a major league at-bat.
by betterthanbochy on May 31, 2011 11:58 AM PDT reply actions
Hey Johnny Disaster
I didn’t plagerize – really. Great minds, I guess.
by betterthanbochy on May 31, 2011 12:01 PM PDT reply actions
I don’t really see where either Bowker or Schierholtz are good cases of failed development. Indeed, I think there’s a reasonable arguement to be made in both cases that they’ve developed fairly close to their production ceilings.
(Aside: i know defensive metrics are wonky in SSS, but looking at Nate’s -0.6 defensive rating this year really makes me want to throw element out of WAR altogether).
MY DAD WAS WRONG!
MY BOY NEEDS TO THROW HARDER!
I don’t think it’s what they could have or would have become as much as it is how they were handled. Players need at least 200 or so consecutive PA’s before you know what you have. I still think that if someone were to give Bowker consistent playing time he could be an everyday player and while I don’t necessarily believe the same for Schierholtz the fact remains that we just don’t know.
Still, the Brandon Belt debaccle is unheard of and uncalled for. What other team calls up their best prospect to sit on the bench? How is this supposed to help Belt in the long-run and/or how does it even help the Giants in the short-run?
I still believe in Santa Clause and Bowkermania!
Proud adoptive parent of Brett Bochy, he's my boy now Bruce!
by Giant Torture on May 31, 2011 12:31 PM PDT up reply actions
Players need at least 200 or so consecutive PA’s before you know what you have.
Whenever I read something of this sort I’m reminded of something that Lorne Michaels used to say: the show doesn’t go on because it’s finished; it goes on because it’s 11:30 on Saturday night.
Which is to say that I can see, academically, the virtue of such a statement, but I wonder how often it really has a real world application. I know in my job, there’s probably never been a project that I’ve worked on the last 25 years that I didn’t have to jettison (for a whole host of reasons) some aspect that I really really wanted and thought would make the whole thing better, in some cases significantly better. It’s a shame but I understand why I have to make certain tradeoffs. 200 consecutive PA’s is a lot — it’s about a third of a season. And the thing I’d ask you to consider is: is it even possible to give every decent minor leaguer performer a third of a season consecutive starts to prove themselves — what would such a league even look like?
In Bowker’s case, I have to say I find your logic even more egregious because he not only DID get your required amount of PAs, he got nearly twice as much. So I have to assume that you’re saying, every guy coming up out of the minors needs to get a third of a season starting time, and then after being sent down and having made adjustments, he should get another third of a season starting time. Which makes the logistics of roster construction even more confusing.
Frankly, i’m not sure why people continue to believe that all of the professional player personnel evaluators for a number of different teams are all completely wrong in their assessment of this player. I really find that notion to lack credibility.
MY DAD WAS WRONG!
MY BOY NEEDS TO THROW HARDER!
by Roger on May 31, 2011 1:01 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
I disagree about Posey's development.
While his immediate success when called up to the big leagues in 2010 was not fully due to the fact that he spent the first couple months in AAA, I think the Giants did well by resisting the temptation to bring him up earlier. If you remember, Bumgarner had more HRs in AAA than Posey for quite a while. If Sabean had promoted Posey at the beginning of the season, he very well may have lost confidence as a result of his power drought. While I don’t believe that Sabean suddenly had a stroke of genius, he must be credited for “accidentally” doing the right thing, in Posey’s case.
However, he’s totally botched up Brandon Belt’s development. You don’t call up your top prospect only to send him down when a position player comes off the DL, but that is what the Giants did. And most importantly, you don’t automatically make judgments on a prospect after a few weeks in the majors, which is what the Giants did. Perhaps if they gave him more time initially to acclimate to the big leagues, then he’d be a given in our starting lineup by now.
As for Schierholtz and Bowker, I completely agree with you. Both of them had a lot more potential than management gave them credit for, and they were killed by SSS. Never given a consistent chance, which is too bad, because a producing outfielder would really come in hand to the Giants currently.
I don't buy it
Schierholtz and Bowker were never highly touted. They had good numbers in the minors, but anyone who watches them can see that they have massive holes in their swings. Nate for instance has really bad pitch recognition and can’t walk.
I don't think I buy this as an excuse
If I’m Sabean, and I have a 23 year old Nate Schierholtz mashing in AAA while showing strong RF defense, but my scouts tell me he has a hole in his swing on the pitch down and in (which seems to be his problem), I have two options:
1. Resign myself to the fact that he has a hole in his swing and he’s never going to be productive in the majors.
2. Do something to try and fix it, either by removing the hole somehow or teaching him to lay off the pitch down and in; since he can’t hit it, swinging definitely produces a strike, while not swinging only may produce a strike.
Seems pretty clear that (2) is a better choice. I don’t know for certain that that option wasn’t explored, and I wouldn’t assume the hole could be fixed, but it sure as hell doesn’t look like Nate was possessed with the ability to lay off the back foot breaking ball (he’s done a better job this year, and I heard they changed his swing a bit and opened him up, so maybe fixing the hole was possible). Even if the hole stays and Nate just lays off that pitch, pitchers aren’t going to be able to hit that spot every time; they will miss inside and low, leading to walks, or out over the plate where Nate can swing. Perhaps continuously pounding him inside would prevent him from posting great averages, but he’s shown pretty good power (which would be applied well to hanging breaking balls) and taking more pitches would increase his walk rate, probably making him a viable everyday player.
Like I said, I don’t know if any of this is possible, but it sure doesn’t seem like it’s been explored in depth. I feel like they just kind of said “Either Nate (and Bowker, really) will hit in the majors or they won’t, and there’s nothing we can do”. That may be true, but they should at least try, and I don’t feel that’s been the case.
Seth Rosin can hit the side of a barn with a baseball. From space.
Giants baseball: We're stupid enough to WIN that (TM)
i remember Sabean bragging on KNBR that he was getting a lot of trade interest in Nate, had to be 2004 or 2005 when he was at Hagerstwon of San Jose….and they were both high picks tough….Bowker was given up for dead until his 2007 season at Connecticut…
by repeat_in_2011 on May 31, 2011 10:06 PM PDT up reply actions
TGWTWS
i know its said by others but it needs to be repeated here becausse all giants fans should breathe a little easier.
by Norman W. Albert on May 31, 2011 1:01 PM PDT reply actions
IT NEVER NEEDS TO BE REPEATED
Seriously. It’s the lamest possible rejoinder.
I DON'T BELIEVE YOU (AGAIN)
I tweet (more often than I blarg).
TGWTWS never needs to be repeated?
I would argue that nothing ought to be said more often.
Seth Rosin can hit the side of a barn with a baseball. From space.
Giants baseball: We're stupid enough to WIN that (TM)
Sure, say it. BUT IT’S NEVER A WINNING ARGUMENT. It has nothing to do with what’s happening now.
I DON'T BELIEVE YOU (AGAIN)
I tweet (more often than I blarg).
Yeah, but TGWTWS.
"This is a street fight, and we win those." -- BRIAN SABEAN, 10/23/10
Proud owner of the saddest looking IMDb page and Twitter in the world.
by Josh from Hollywood on May 31, 2011 10:23 PM PDT up reply actions
What's that?
I couldn’t hear you.
Seth Rosin can hit the side of a barn with a baseball. From space.
Giants baseball: We're stupid enough to WIN that (TM)
Mantra’s should not be confused with arguments.
"Don't trust anyone under the age of 30" - Brian Sabean
by Smotheredinhugs on Jun 1, 2011 6:50 AM PDT up reply actions
I think TGWTWS is a good argument in a lot of situations
Like when people say the Giants weren’t that good or certain players weren’t that good. Or even that Sabean/Bochy are entirely incompetent (which is possible, but certainly less likely after a WS win). It’s evidence against a lot of claims of failure in SF.
Seth Rosin can hit the side of a barn with a baseball. From space.
Giants baseball: We're stupid enough to WIN that (TM)
I just don't understand calling up someone who is literally tearing the cover off the ball
and then sitting him on the bench indefinitely.
Broscience investigator.
by HOLDEMUPGoldenStateOfOppression on May 31, 2011 1:55 PM PDT reply actions
Belt
I’m not nearly as upset as you are about the use of Belt.
The team determined he was ready to assume the starting 1B job to start the season. When things didn’t work out, they sent him to Fresno to make adjustments and he did well. He’s still far from a known MLB quantity offensively.
Now with the offense struggling, they’ve brought him back up as a LHH option. Would more ABs be better? Sure. But the team has chosen the SF Giants winning games over concern about Belt getting regular ABs. He’ll get ABs, get regular batting practice and get to work with Bam Bam. I don’t think they’re screwing with him in the slightest.
The general argument is that Belt should be getting ABs instead of Huff, but Huff is going to need to be a part of the offense for this team to go anywhere, so letting him work on his hitting makes sense to me. You can’t just give up on Huff for the rest of he season.
The thong is, it happened.
I just don’t understand why Ishikawa wasn’t the call up if the team needed a LHH 1B/OF to sit on the bench most days.
Thing A
"Correlation between inability to use the reply button and general crappiness of analysis: pretty high." -Sleepy Freud
40 man roster issues
They don’t want to put him back on the 40 man.
Seth Rosin can hit the side of a barn with a baseball. From space.
Giants baseball: We're stupid enough to WIN that (TM)
Only have 39 currently on the 40 man
Also, it could have been someone else. The difference over a few weeks isn’t that big.
I still believe in Santa Clause and Bowkermania!
Proud adoptive parent of Brett Bochy, he's my boy now Bruce!
by Giant Torture on May 31, 2011 2:10 PM PDT up reply actions
why is Hinshaw?
Thing A
"Correlation between inability to use the reply button and general crappiness of analysis: pretty high." -Sleepy Freud
because somebody still thinks he can pitch, maybe Tidrow…they drafted him 3 times….
by repeat_in_2011 on May 31, 2011 10:11 PM PDT up reply actions
Didn't work out by whose standards though?
He wasn’t hitting for average, but he had an OBP of over .300 or about .30 higher than Huff’s. What’s more is that the difference between Belt and someone like Ishikawa in spot starts and pinch-hitting roles is minimal. Why mortgage the team’s future with one of it’s most valuable assets for what might be a couple of hits over the course of 2-3 weeks.
I still believe in Santa Clause and Bowkermania!
Proud adoptive parent of Brett Bochy, he's my boy now Bruce!
by Giant Torture on May 31, 2011 2:09 PM PDT up reply actions
Call me crazy, but I thought most people
don’t call a line of .192/.300/.269 “working out”.
The thong is, it happened.
Or...
The organization thinks that Belts main issue is mental and in order to ease his mind, they intend to incorporate him into the lineup slowly, or at least let his production dictate playing time. All of this may out the window now with the wrist injury, but I suspect that was the intent in bringing him up.
"Don't trust anyone under the age of 30" - Brian Sabean
by Smotheredinhugs on Jun 1, 2011 6:58 AM PDT up reply actions
Re Goofus's post:
That one post seems to say all that needs saying.
Professional baseball analyst since 1980.
Wir sind gewohnt, daß die Menschen verhöhnen was sie nicht verstehn.—Goethe
I don't give him Huff's ab's
Huff is going to play everyday. And he should.
The only question is whether Belt develops better playing every day in Fresno or part time here. I believe its the former. I just don’t think you get better as a young player by playing twice a week.
If he stays up when Pablo and Fontenot return (which I think is doubtful) I would like to see him get a lot of starts in left. . Put him in a rotation with Ross and Nate. 3 for 2 in the corners. he also can play first on Huff’s off days. That means little or no time for Burrell and Rowand. So be it.
I agree with everything here.
I hope he goes back down when Pablo and Fontenot return.
Adoptive father of Jose Casilla.
Whenever the Giants are clinging to a tight lead who does Bochy bring in, the best reliever in baseball Sergio Romo? Of course not! The always reliable Guillermo Mota? As if. The closer, Brian Wilson, he of the facial gerbal farm? No way, it’s Jeremy “Cash’em in” Affeldt
This is simply not true.
If you look at leverage index when entering the game, Affeldt is behind Wilson, Romo, Mota, Ramirez, and Lopez. In short, he’s the last guy Bochy goes to when “clinging to a tight lead”.
Adoptive father of Jose Casilla.
This whole thing has been talked about to death
The Giants just can’t seem to produce effective ML-quality position players. With the emergence of Belt last year I thought maybe that was turning around, as he was a 5th round pick that ended up in the top 25 of BA’s prospect list, and there were several interesting hitters that looked good. Now, I’m not so sure, and not just because there’s been some questionable handling, but because Belt didn’t hit all that well when he showed up at the beginning of the year.
I think we’ve been spoiled by the good fortune on pitchers and on Posey and Sandoval. We haven’t had a lot of busts on arms recently, and both Pablo and Buster showed up and started hitting despite minimal development time for both. Same goes for Timmy and Bumgarner. So we just kind of think that every player who does well in the minors ought to do well in the majors (which isn’t unreasonable) and then we assume that if they don’t, the Giants did something wrong in the development process, which is possible but not necessarily true.
I’d also say it’s too early to know if Belt’s been mishandled. First he has to not produce for an extended period despite his performance in the minors, and we haven’t seen enough of him to say that’s true. Give the Giants time to make mistakes before we complain about the mistakes they’re making. Perhaps more importantly, recognize that they may not be making mistakes; not only does no one always know what the right thing to do is, but baseball in particular is ridiculously difficult when it comes to “figuring it out” and consistently developing players well, and even then luck is a huge factor.
Seth Rosin can hit the side of a barn with a baseball. From space.
Giants baseball: We're stupid enough to WIN that (TM)
Extremely well said
I’d also add that the team ALWAYS has more info on their players than we do. They watch every pitch of every PA and batting practice.
The thong is, it happened.
Couple quick comments
1. Posey: REsults speak for themselves. Would he have had the same success in 2010 if the Giants started the season with him? Maybe, maybe not. As it is, they called him up in late May and I think things worked out quite well.
2. Sandoval: Giants did see this coming. He was supposed to lose weight after his big 2009 year. He didn’t.
3. Bowker, Niekro, Linden, Dallymore etc. How many were high picks – big prospects? ALL organizations have guys that come up and fail.
4. During the Bonds era, the plan was to draft pitchers in numbers and trade off the lesser prospects for vets to try to win with Barry. Worked damn well for many years. Then it failed in Bonds last few. They stuck with it too long.
5. The organization has switched gears and have begun drafting position players higher up. Worked ok with Buster. There are others on the horizon.
6. AGREE THAT BELT SHOULD BE PLAYING EVERYDAY. PREFERABLY IN SF, BUT IF NOT FRESNO. To play him part time is a waste.
Re #4
I think the main problem was that they essentially went after vets instead of the draft. The Michael Tucker incident is the most famous, and in 2005-the deepest draft in recent memory the 1st player taken was the recently released Ben Copeland.
Twitter Blog
Writing about the MLB Draft at MLBBonusBaby
“As it is, they called him up in late May and I think things worked out quite well.”
Extra points for understatement.
"This is a street fight, and we win those." -- BRIAN SABEAN, 10/23/10
Proud owner of the saddest looking IMDb page and Twitter in the world.
by Josh from Hollywood on Jun 3, 2011 4:52 PM PDT up reply actions
And one last point
It is absurd to state that Sergio Romo is the best reliever in baseball. Love the guy. But get real.
ORLY?
Third in baseball by fWAR, but this is more relevant. He’s not just leading all relievers in FIP and xFIP, he’s blowing them out of the water.
Even better, check this out. Baseball seasons from 1871-2011, and Romo’s got the best FIP EVER. Obviously this won’t continue, but he could well end up having one of the best seasons by a relief pitcher in the history of baseball. I don’t know if he’s the best reliever in baseball, but he’s certainly making a case for it.
Seth Rosin can hit the side of a barn with a baseball. From space.
Giants baseball: We're stupid enough to WIN that (TM)
closers first everyone else second.
You cannot compare any setup guy with a closer. You want to knwo the best year a reliever ever had. Check out Dennis Eckersley. ONe year he had more saves than he allowed baserunners.
The 9th inning is different. period. Tehre are closer and everyone else.
I like Romo a lot. But if you called SD’s GM and said – I’ll trade you Romo for Heath Bell even up, you’d be laughed out of town.
“closers first everyone else second.”
This an intellectually lazy argument. There have been — and are — some pretty crappy closers out there, and some pretty awesome set-up men. To suggest the former are better than the latter based purely on the assignment given them by their managers is like saying Bengie Molina was better with the Giants than whoever hit 6th for the Red Sox during the same period because Molina was a Clean-Up Hitter©.
"This is a street fight, and we win those." -- BRIAN SABEAN, 10/23/10
Proud owner of the saddest looking IMDb page and Twitter in the world.
by Josh from Hollywood on Jun 3, 2011 5:00 PM PDT up reply actions
It may be intellectual lazy
But it is also true. Of course there are bad closers. And awesome set up guys. There are also bad set up men.
I was responding to a comment that said Romo might be the best reliever in baseball. If you ask me is he better than the worst closer in baseball (and that is an apt analogy to Molina hitting cleanup) then I would certainly say yes. INdeed, I suspect I’d rather have him over many closers – if Romo could close. But best reliever in baseball? That honor goes to the best of the guys who comes in day after day after day in the most pressure packed situation.
When you are talking about the “best reliever in baseball” you necessarily are talking closers. They are the most impt and the most valuable.
Managers aren’t idiots. They have the closer in that role cause he’s the best suited guy on the staff for the job. Stuff and make up wise.
I think Romo is one of the best set up guys in baseball. And I agree he’s been under used (until this last road trip) this year.
Not sure if he could be a successful closer though, cause he does not seem to be strong enough to pitch 3 or 4 days in a row. All closers on contenders need to do that at times – particularly in Sept.
I don’t need to disagree with you because you just disagreed with yourself:
POINT (written by you): “closers first everyone else second.
You cannot compare any setup guy with a closer.”
COUNTERPOINT (also by you): “If you ask me is he better than the worst closer in baseball (and that is an apt analogy to Molina hitting cleanup) then I would certainly say yes.”
"This is a street fight, and we win those." -- BRIAN SABEAN, 10/23/10
Proud owner of the saddest looking IMDb page and Twitter in the world.
by Josh from Hollywood on Jun 3, 2011 5:21 PM PDT up reply actions
I believe he was a closer in the minors.
And on what do you judge him unlikely to be able to pitch 3 or 4 days in a row?
Professional baseball analyst since 1980.
Wir sind gewohnt, daß die Menschen verhöhnen was sie nicht verstehn.—Goethe
Especially because closers typically don’t pitch three or four days in a row either. That many consecutive save opps frequently means someone else gets it.
Seth Rosin can hit the side of a barn with a baseball. From space.
Giants baseball: We're stupid enough to WIN that (TM)
Because if there's one thing we know about Sergio Romo
It’s that he lets the pressure get to him and is very emotionally fragile. After all, being a setup guy is a totally different role; the eighth is one whole inning before the ninth!
Romo is a badass. He knows it, a lot of Giants and baseball fans know it. He definitely has the makeup to be a shutdown closer.
But I don’t want him to be a closer. I want him in the fireman role; if the bases are loaded and there’s no one out, I want him in the game whether it’s the 7th or the 11th. That’s the time you want a guy with a 14.54 K/9 and 1.04 BB/9 and 4.1 H/9. Wilson can be the closer, but Romo is easily a better reliever right now, and TBH has been for a couple seasons. He just doesn’t have the classic 97 MPH fastball of a closer, but man is that slider dirty.
Seth Rosin can hit the side of a barn with a baseball. From space.
Giants baseball: We're stupid enough to WIN that (TM)
Ah, yes, the fireman.
I have been preaching to all who would listen (an empty chamber) for decades—from long before the word “leverage” was a commonplace—that the best use of quality relievers is the “fireman” role as well described above by quincy.
But I guess that’s not the way Doubleday and Cartwright played the game . . . .
Professional baseball analyst since 1980.
Wir sind gewohnt, daß die Menschen verhöhnen was sie nicht verstehn.—Goethe
Two things: The year Dennis Eckersly had more saves than baserunners, he only threw about 70 innings. To call that the greatest year a reliever ever had is to put way too much emphasis on the importance of the Save stat. By comparison Mike Marshall once had back to back games where he threw 179 and 208 innings out of the bullpen. In his CY year he threw 208 innings and had 31 saves; are you willing to say that Eckersly year of 51 saves in 80 innings was more productive?
As for Romo/Bell straight up, I’m pretty sure SD would jump at that deal. They’re almost certainly going to move Bell this year and if they could get somebody like Romo in return they’d be thrilled. Remember that this is the club who picked Bell up for slop from the Mets (where he’d been thoroughly undistinguished), and after two years of using him as setup man felt perfectly assured in letting the all time saves leader walk and installing Bell as the new closer (this following what was Bell’s worst year to date as a Padre). The notion that they wouldn’t want Romo in return for him as they’re ushering him out the door is ill-conceived.
MY DAD WAS WRONG!
MY BOY NEEDS TO THROW HARDER!
By comparison Mike Marshall once had back to back games where he threw 179 and 208 innings out of the bullpen
That’s impressive, but the hitters of those sides need to take a stern look at themselves.
by sarf_london_niner on Jun 4, 2011 4:11 AM PDT up reply actions
I have watched the marlins develop players.
They bring them up young, as they usually try to limit their payroll.
Often they start out overmatched in April, some of these guys hit
as bad or worse than Bowker did, but they stick with them, and
then they catch on, and most of them become good players. Lewis
is a legit major leaguer, not a star but a serviceable outfielder. I think
the giants and later Pittsburgh although the age is much greater now
have just blown it with Bowker. I think he would be a legit major leaguer
with decent power.
Is there a way to edit on this site
My typos are embarrassing.
Only before posting.
Use the “Preview” button and proof the text. Otherwise, no, which many agree with you is unfortunate.
Professional baseball analyst since 1980.
Wir sind gewohnt, daß die Menschen verhöhnen was sie nicht verstehn.—Goethe
Yeah
Part of me thinks that you should be able to edit, but that leaves the door open for people to “fix” their comments after the fact. I’ll take the current system; you can clarify in the unlikely event you’re actually unable to be understood, but you can’t take things back or act like you never said them.
Seth Rosin can hit the side of a barn with a baseball. From space.
Giants baseball: We're stupid enough to WIN that (TM)
In order to assume that a position prospect that does well in the minors can, with enough at bats at the major league level, do well would have to assume that minor league pitching is equal to major league pitching. That just isn’t the case. I would say 75% of minor league pitching couldn’t replace the bottom 25% of major league pitching. What it pretty much boils down to is does a hitter have the innate ability to perform at the ML level or possess the ability to make the necessary adjustments in the batter’s box at the ML level to be successful? Coaches can only do so much. By saying that management and coaches mishandle the development of players puts all the blame on them for a prospect not doing well which would mean that one assumes that all prospects can do well at the ML level. That’s a ridiculous assumption.
by FutureDaydream on Jun 11, 2011 12:32 PM PDT reply actions

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