Desperate Measures for Desperate Times
by Vaccaro on May 26, 2011 1:15 PM PDT
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As I speak right now the Giants stand 2.5 games up in first place of the NL West, yet with the heartbreaking loss of Buster Posey for the season and the bevy of injuries that have plagued the Giants, it almost looks to be an uphill battle for the G-Men to reach the postseason. With Eli Whiteside as the obvious replacement and even talks of reuniting Bengie Molina with the club (!), and an offense that ranks LAST in the National League, these are desperate times in San Francisco. However, there could be one plausible solution; one solution that might just be crazy enough to give the offense enough slack to allow the pitching staff to carry the team to the playoffs.
Aubrey Huff 3B
Brandon Belt 1B
No doubt it would be an uncomfortable adjustment for the Giants. It could be a complete failure, or it could be the only way to save the Giants offense. Of course multiple things would need to go right for this to be a successful experiment for the Giants. Huff would have to avoid being a completely dreadful defensive 3rd basemen. Pablo Sandoval would have to prove he could still handle being a capable major league catcher on a regular basis. And perhaps most difficult of all, Brandon Belt would have to become a savior to the Giants offense, much like the Buster Posey of 2010.
But perhaps more importantly, this change would allow the Giants to keep either Burrell's or Schierholtz bat in the lineup on a regular basis.
However, for all said factors to play successfully in the Giants favor might be a bit of a stretch. But if your going to make a risky move like such, you have to weigh the options. What would be a bigger stretch? All of said factors working? Or the Giants making the postseason with Eli Whiteside as the everyday catcher and a less apparent role for Brandon Belt?
If you have read JT Jordans recent post about Aubrey Huff at 3B, it would appear plausible that Huff could handle the position as a below average, but not terrible defensive 3rd basemen. However, Brandon Belt at first base would make an instant positive impact on the infield defense that could help negate the effects of switching Huff. If Huff and Belt can begin to hit productively, the offensive gains could very well be worth it.
And now we move on to Pablo Sandoval. It's hard to imagine the Giants moving Panda back to the catcher position. For some reason the Giants have never really considered it too much. But think about it, Sandoval has a plus arm, and looked like a decent catcher during his rookie call-up, so he has some experience, albeit very little, of catching a few of these Giants pitchers. His new-found agility this season could prove to be a nice asset for him at catcher. I honestly find no reason to believe Sandoval could not be a capable starting catcher for the remainder of the season.
As i said before, these are desperate times. So maybe it's time to resort to fairly desperate measures. Its tough imagining the Giants offense being able to survive without Posey as it is. A trade would require an impact player which would greatly deplete our farm system. I don't know about you, but I cannot find a better solution in the short term for the Giants once Pablo Sandoval returns. Our offense needs Belt AND Huff to step up, and it certainly needs Eli Whiteside to return to his familiar role as a back-up. This solution might be the only way to do it while keeping our best hitters in the lineup. I'm sure we all hoped we would never have to discuss such an adjustment on the roster, but the loss of Buster Posey has unfortunately put us in this deeply uncomfortable position.
Thoughts?
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Huff would seem to be a trainwreck in waiting at 3B. I’d rather see Nate at 3B again than Aubrey.
I fully support Pablo moving to catcher – assuming we could find a 3B better than Tejada. No other suggestions. We would seem to be well and truly screwed.
Baseball players are smarter than football players. How often do you see a baseball team penalized for too many men on the field?
What happens when Panda gets hurt while playing catcher too? The guy hasn’t played the position in years so it seems like the odds of him getting hurt are as good or better than they were for Gerald
much bigger body
im thinking he could handle more impact
Imagine. Lincecum still hitting 99-101 with the gun. Greatest pitcher of modern time??
pablo hasnt caught major league pitching
with our staff, he would be eaten alive. Not to mention that he would be a huge defensive liability with regard to SB attempts against us. This isnt even mentioning Huff at 3rd. I love where your heart is at, but this is a failure.
Cain is Able ...
and Bochy (of all managers)
is going to value defense behind the plate.
"pablo hasnt caught major league pitching"?
Look before you leap.
He was, in fact, an excellent catcher for the Giants.
Professional baseball analyst since 1980.
Wir sind gewohnt, daß die Menschen verhöhnen was sie nicht verstehn.—Goethe
was he really “an excellent catcher” those 14 games he caught? That is an over-statement at best
by FluLikeSymptoms on May 26, 2011 7:48 PM PDT up reply actions
What are you talking about?
I’m sorry, but your RESPONSE is a failure. He did perfectly fine catching Lincecum Cain and co. And he was decent at throwing out runners.
Imagine. Lincecum still hitting 99-101 with the gun. Greatest pitcher of modern time??
by Vaccaro on May 26, 2011 9:20 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions
I'd be more curious to switch Belt and Huff in the scenario you describe,
but I don’t have much of a problem with Panda at catcher. Aside from the fact that he’s not playing yet.
Better to be a Giants fan than an Athletic supporter!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=90CXJ3xabfY
yeap…pablo knows how to take it.
This doesn't make any sense
You’d be moving Huff and Pablo from their most comfortable position to positions where they become defensive liabilities. JT Jordan’s conclusion was that Huff wouldn’t be a serious problem at third if he only played there until Pablo comes back, but if he plays there for the rest of the season he does become a significant liability, costing us around a win. Without Posey’s offense and with more defensive problems behind the plate with Sandoval playing out of position, combined with a fairly tight division, it’s not inconceivable that could have direct consequences on our playoff chances.
Basically, anyone who still thinks Pablo could be a major league catcher without some serious, long-term coaching and possibly even time in the minors is deluded.
Seth Rosin can hit the side of a barn with a baseball. From space.
Giants baseball: We're stupid enough to WIN that (TM)
Huff at 3B, even for 2-3 games, is WAY more concerning to me than Pablo coming back as a catcher – even for the rest of the season. I’ve seen Pablo play C, and he’s fine. I haven’t seen Huff play 3B, but I suspect he would not be fine. At all.
Baseball players are smarter than football players. How often do you see a baseball team penalized for too many men on the field?
How many chances is he really going to get, though?
Maybe four or five a game? Mostly easy hops right at him? We’ve been living with Tejada’s defense, and while he’s got a lot more experience, I wouldn’t be surprised if Huff has better range.
Seth Rosin can hit the side of a barn with a baseball. From space.
Giants baseball: We're stupid enough to WIN that (TM)
my suggestion:
Huff starts hitting. Sandoval comes back and starts hitting. Belt starts hitting.
how much time would pablo get to rehab? i’m not saying it’s a good or bad idea, but why not give him some time at catcher before he’s activated just to see how he handles it. if the other options are whiteside, stewart, and/or bengie, i say give it a shot.
huff at third, however, shouldn’t be an option.
Proud adoptive father of Kendry Flores
Anything with the word "desperate" in it is trouble.
Moves of any kind made because the organization is “desperate” are sure to end in tears by bedtime. Competence is more or less the diametric opposite of “desperation”.
Fontenot is 15 days, and Panda is not far beyond that. At that point, the team is back to the A Team except at catcher. Calculation shows that the loss of Posey to Whiteside, under worst-case conditions (Posey valued at career levels, which he was not at, Whiteside valued at career levels, which he has been somewhat over as a Giant, loss persists through the entire rest of the season), is probably 3 wins. Now 3 wins is certainly important, and could bring the Giants down to close to par with the Rockies—but it’s not as if the team plane crashed.
It would be nice if the Giants could pick up someone like Ryan Doumit at a relatively modest price, but it would be folly for them to trade away any major parts. (And, as I type this, best guesses for Posey’s return are zoning in on a 10-week return, including rehab assignment.)
The rest of the team looks fine save for Huff’s continuing struggles; what it looks like to me is that fairly common phenomenon of a statistical thing turning into a real slump because the player starts pressing, establishing a vicious cycle. But that is an entirely separate matter, and could be handled by simply running Belt in at first for a while to let Huff get his head clear (after which Belt could move to right, displacing either Schierholtz or Ross, depending on how Schierholtz plays out in the near future).
Above all, take the advice of The Hitchhiker’s Guide to the Galaxy:
Don’t panic!
Professional baseball analyst since 1980.
Wir sind gewohnt, daß die Menschen verhöhnen was sie nicht verstehn.—Goethe
Exactly
Besides, we’re a team built around our pitching, which is, in fact, better than it was at the beginning of the season with Vogelsong in place of Zito. It’s not panic time yet.
by WasabiTorture on May 26, 2011 4:35 PM PDT up reply actions
Pablo
I would have no reservations whatsoever about putting Sandoval behind the plate. He will handle the staff, manage the game and contribute offensively. He was very comfortable behind the plate in Norwich. Hell, in my mind he’s the only option that makes sense.
by thehondohurricane on May 26, 2011 4:41 PM PDT reply actions
it would be interesting from the standpoint of seeing what would be a bigger train wreck, Huff at 3B or Posey catching?
by FluLikeSymptoms on May 26, 2011 7:55 PM PDT reply actions
Posey catching would be great :(
Pablo catching would be the bigger trainwreck, though. I imagine Huff would be able to handle most of his chances, and he wouldn’t be involved in every play, especially considering the K/FB nature of the staff. Sandoval, meanwhile, would have to handle all our pitchers’ nasty breaking stuff and would probably end up getting hurt. I’d rather put Huff somewhere he’s had significant innings in the majors and could be hidden, as opposed to forcing Sandoval to be involved in every pitch at a position he (in my opinion) isn’t suited for.
Seth Rosin can hit the side of a barn with a baseball. From space.
Giants baseball: We're stupid enough to WIN that (TM)
Whyever would you think all that?
Have you actually seen him catch? I have.
Professional baseball analyst since 1980.
Wir sind gewohnt, daß die Menschen verhöhnen was sie nicht verstehn.—Goethe
I have
But not much. He’s played 190 total games at C spread over six years and spanning rookie ball to the majors, none since 2009. So if your position is that 190 professional games at catcher (1.5 years as a starting catcher) enables him to handle one of the majors’ best staffs, on which our playoff hopes rest, with little prep work considering this isn’t ST, and you’re basing it primarily on fourteen games you saw him catch a couple years ago, I would suggest that you aren’t evaluating him very well.
He could be great. But there’s really no evidence to draw such a conclusion, so I’d rather err on the side of caution and stick with guys who know the pitchers, not because I believe catching is some magical ability, but because catchers not only have to learn what guys throw, how to catch it, how to frame it, and the other mechanical aspects of just catching, they also have to handle pitchers. That means reading them, figuring out what’s working, what they’re comfortable throwing right now, easing frustration or giddiness, and most importantly, having them be comfortable throwing to you. I doubt Tim Lincecum would be just dandy throwing a wicked changeup to Sandoval, I think he’s going to have reservations about whether Pablo can block the ball with a runner on third and less than one out. Maybe that makes him rely more on the fastball, and that makes him predictable. Pitchers have to trust catchers, and that’s not going to happen overnight, which makes Sandoval to C a problem.
Meanwhile, it’s not like putting him at catcher makes everything else all right. Then you have to put Huff at third (bad idea) or Tejada at third or short (bad idea), and that’s assuming you want Fontenot in the lineup as much as possible. You’d get Belt in the lineup, but that’s plugging one hole by making two more.
What is it exactly that makes you think Sandoval would even be an adequate defensive catcher? Fourteen major league games, the most recent two years ago, doesn’t really fill me with confidence.
Seth Rosin can hit the side of a barn with a baseball. From space.
Giants baseball: We're stupid enough to WIN that (TM)
I think Pablo is more than capable
of catching as well as some of the people putting on the gear these days. And he has caught several of these pitchers before, including Romo and Guapo in the minors. And I suspect he’s probably caught bullpens or off-day sessions occasionally.
But I don’t think he’s done it in more than two years, and coming off a broken hand (which of course he hasn’t actually come back from yet) is probably not the optimal time to do so.
May 29, 2010: Steven Revetria becomes Giants General Manager. The rest is history.
"118 elements, and still no stanfurdium"- carp, paraphrased
Bandwagons are fun- that's why people get on them in the first place.
by natteringnabob on May 27, 2011 7:31 AM PDT up reply actions
What makes me think so . . .
. . . is that he was an excellent catcher in those 14 games. He did everything needful, from setting a fine target to framing well to—as indicated by results—calling pitches well to throwing well.
Your other point, though, that moving him to catcher only shifts the hole, is quite good. It might be that Huff, with some working out, could be adequate at third, but it’s a suspect move. I would like to see Sandoval sharing some time with Posey when he returns (and that gives them plenty of time to get him ready), but that’s another issue.
Unless they can pick up a decent catcher for not very much, I think they are best to just grit their teeth and play Whiteside.
Professional baseball analyst since 1980.
Wir sind gewohnt, daß die Menschen verhöhnen was sie nicht verstehn.—Goethe
SSS
Is all I have to say to that.
Seth Rosin can hit the side of a barn with a baseball. From space.
Giants baseball: We're stupid enough to WIN that (TM)
Well, he did have a prior minor-league career.
It is the position he played coming up.
Besides whcih, I don’t think that the physical manifestation of skills is subject to SSS: only numerical data are. If a man bench presses 400 pounds, he can bench press 400 pounds; we don’t say “SSS”. We’re not talking of Panda’s SB/CS rate or his CERA, or any such numerical stats; we are talking about how hard and far and accurately he threw, how well he held his glove before, during, and after pitch delivery, and how he seemed to work with the pitchers. Not really “SSS” things.
Professional baseball analyst since 1980.
Wir sind gewohnt, daß die Menschen verhöhnen was sie nicht verstehn.—Goethe
I disagree
A player can look good for a couple games even if he’s not good. Maybe he’s not getting difficult chances, or maybe other fielders are covering for them. At some level, you’re right, guys without the proper tools can’t make some plays no matter what, and watching a guy field does give you a good idea of their skill pretty quickly. But I do think C is the most important defensive position on the diamond, particularly with a good, dynamic pitching staff, and even more so when pitching is what the team is riding on. Besides, Pablo is a plus defensive third baseman since he dropped the weight, both by UZR and for anyone who’s seen him. Keeping him there makes a lot more sense to me.
Seth Rosin can hit the side of a barn with a baseball. From space.
Giants baseball: We're stupid enough to WIN that (TM)
Those are two different issues.
While I am confident that 1) Sandoval was and could quickly again become a good-quality defensive catcher, the other issue is 2) what moving him there right now might accomplish, and the answer is nothing, because there is no obvious candidate for third being blocked.
Professional baseball analyst since 1980.
Wir sind gewohnt, daß die Menschen verhöhnen was sie nicht verstehn.—Goethe
It's simple
Great hands, big body, great arm, nice agility and range, and enough experience. He has all the tools and he’s shown us he can more than handle the staff in a small sample size. He has all the tools and enough experience. With some repitition, there is NO REASON to believe Pablo Sandoval would not be an acceptable catcher at the least. It’s truly foolish to discount him.
Imagine. Lincecum still hitting 99-101 with the gun. Greatest pitcher of modern time??
by Vaccaro on May 28, 2011 3:00 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions
The entire point of this
Would be to keep Schierholtz/Burrells bat in the lineup on a daily basis, keeping Whiteside out of the everyday lineup and putting Belt where he is most valuable. If you believe Sandoval can be an average defensive catcher with a little repitition (I do) the only MAJOR downside is Huff at 3rd. But the reward could quite possibly outweigh the losses. For this to happen Belt needs to hit and hit well. And ideally Huff begins to hit productively
Imagine. Lincecum still hitting 99-101 with the gun. Greatest pitcher of modern time??
by Vaccaro on May 26, 2011 9:31 PM PDT via mobile reply actions
No thanks.
Brian Sabean strongly encourages you to disregard the drudgery of your employment responsibilities and join him in the consumption of spirituous libations.
I think Panda could...
I don’t have doubts on him being able to play the position, but why? It would only make sense like tonight were Burris played 1st, because of a late inning switch and no other option.
I think this would stunt his growth as a player. He is in such a trim and lean mindset right now…and playing catcher could slow this down.
by Andrew Crispell on Jun 1, 2011 10:56 PM PDT reply actions
Say what?
Do you know how many pounds a catcher loses in one game in the summer? OK, they put most back on by drinking liquids after the game, but it scarcely “slows down” weight control.
Professional baseball analyst since 1980.
Wir sind gewohnt, daß die Menschen verhöhnen was sie nicht verstehn.—Goethe
No, No and NO.
This is a defensive trainwreck. No way.
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