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Federal Prosecutors drop 6 of the 11 charges against Barry Bonds. This was the fourth revised version of the indictments against Bonds.

over 1 year ago Timmyace_tiny Nnamdi Asomugha 21 comments 0 recs  | 

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money the govt doesn't have

What the logic is, I believe, is that by making an example of Bonds for perjury, it deters regular folks from perjuring themselves. However, if the govt only every goes after famous people on perjury, it shows that if you’re not famous, you don’t have much to worry about. They could have prosecuted hundreds of normal perjurers with the amount of time and money they’ve spent on the Bonds witch hunt, and that’d be far more effective in achieving the goal.

"There was no torture in the end. Only rapture." - Mike Krukow
2010 Giants: World Series Champs

Neal before Zod!
Official Sponsor of the 1997 San Francisco Giants

by nostocksjustbonds on Feb 11, 2011 9:51 AM PST up reply actions  

One of the legal experts on ESPN said he doubts they could get a conviction beyond a reasonable doubt.

Still the father of two-time Cy Young Award winner Tim Lincecum.
"Failure is not fatal, but failure to change might be." - John Wooden

by SFGuy on Feb 10, 2011 10:30 PM PST reply actions  

Dang

I’m glad we are spending money on this when people are trying to find warm clothing and a hot meal.

Honorary parent of Duane Kuiper, beloved solar powered broadcaster and power hitting coach for the Giants.

by Giant Voodoo on Feb 10, 2011 10:55 PM PST reply actions  

Of course.

It is a witch hunt. Everyone knows that if Andy Pettitte did the same things as Bonds the case would have already been thrown out years ago. The whole effort to convict only Bonds is both ridiculous and foolish

Imagine. Lincecum still hitting 99-101 with the gun. Greatest pitcher of modern time??

by Vaccaro on Feb 10, 2011 10:56 PM PST via mobile reply actions  

This.

Isn’t there a nearly identical case against Gary Sheffield?

"Do you smell that Kenny? That's hard news. Notice the lack of fornicating horses."

by Cody_ransom on Feb 11, 2011 7:58 AM PST up reply actions  

BARRY'S DAUGHTER AGRESS WITH ME
ItsShikariBonds RT @SeanGothman: I hope there is some way Barry Bonds can sue the government for wasting everyone’s time once ALL these phony charges are dismissed.

Brian Sabean strongly encourages you to disregard the drudgery of your employment responsibilities and join him in the consumption of spirituous libations.

by satyricrash on Feb 11, 2011 8:54 AM PST reply actions  

Barry is welcome to sue the Government

if he wants to waste money. It will get thrown out. The charges aren’t “phony” — they were approved by a grand jury and are quite plausible, based on what I’ve read over the years. They may well not be provable beyond a reasonable doubt but that’s a long way from phony. It seems to me from what I’ve read that he’s admitted to unknowingly using steroids. His perjury defense is that they were given to them under names he didn’t recognize (“clear” and “cream” or whatever) and he didn’t lie to the Government when he claimed he didn’t knowingly use steroids. He was a great ballplayer but no hero and I wouldn’t bet a nickel that he didn’t lie, even if I couldn’t prove it. In retrospect, the Government is wasting too much money on this, but there was no way for prosecutors to know early on that Anderson would never betray Barry or that so much evidence would be excluded. They would have been accused of coddling him if they hadn’t pursued it early on. Once you are deeply into it, there is a whole different debate about whether to walk away from the sunk costs or continue. I think it’s a waste to go on, but I also think it’s a lot closer call than folks here want to admit.

by NearestNorwich on Feb 11, 2011 11:52 AM PST up reply actions  

Uh, wow.

Brian Sabean strongly encourages you to disregard the drudgery of your employment responsibilities and join him in the consumption of spirituous libations.

by satyricrash on Feb 11, 2011 1:16 PM PST up reply actions  

I’m not sure what you’ve been reading, but quite a few legal experts have been on record that they didn’t think the case was provable beyond a reasonable doubt – at least among legal circles – and quite a bit has been reported more generally about the questionable behavior of the prosecutor in this case. Bonds may not win a suit (if he chooses to bring one), but from everything I’ve read, it sounds like this prosecutor went outside constrains of legal professionalism in pursuing this case. IBased on the information that has already leaked out, Bonds attorneys could very likely make enough of a factual showing to support the necessary elements of malicious prosecution to make it a question of fact for the jury, thereby defeating any summary judgment motions presented by the prosecutor.

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♥ Brian McCann ♥

by Prussian Creole on Feb 11, 2011 6:16 PM PST up reply actions  

It’s the job of the prosecution to know these things though before they indict anyone. It was their job to figure out in their investigation if Anderson would have cooperated with them, and when he wouldn’t it was dumb of them to keep trying. They needed to know what Jeff Novitzky was and it’s their job to know about his personal vendetta against Bonds. The questions that were asked in the Grand Jury were very ambiguous and were meant to be so to try to catch athletes lying. Technically THG or “the clear” wasn’t considered a steroid back during the Grand Jury testimony so when Bonds said he didn’t knowingly take steroids he wasn’t lying. There was no evidence at the time that THG increased muscle mass. They blew this case themselves. It is the prosecution’s responsibility to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that a person is guilty. It is on their shoulders to build a case and they screwed up.

"He knocks a stake through the heart of the Cardinals! The Cardinals are dead! The Giants are going to the World Series!!!" -Jon Miller

t's Posey time!!

Screw you Flannery.

by sanfrankid on Feb 12, 2011 4:31 AM PST up reply actions  

I think you are overstating how much prosecutors are required to know for certain about how an investigation will unfold before indicting (although it’s certainly their goal to know more than they did). Don’t get me wrong — I’d be happy to have it end up with a ruling that they failed to make their case because this is overkill, but I’m not as confident as you are that it will come out that way. It seems like they have a lot of circumstantial evidence even without any cooperation from reliable witnesses. And the even bigger difference between us, I guess, is that when Barry walks because they didn’t meet the “beyond reasonable doubt” standard, I’ll still be stuck with the disappointing feeling that he probably did cheat and lie about it.

by NearestNorwich on Feb 13, 2011 12:08 PM PST up reply actions  

Honestly does it bother me he used steroids? Yes a little but I’m looking at this from a purely legal standpoint (I’m pretending to know a lot about the legal system). But the point is, that when the prosecution charges a person with a crime, it is on their shoulders to prove that a person committed a crime without any reasonable doubt. Anderson didn’t cooperate in the investigation, so it is likely for a prosecutor to believe that he wouldn’t cooperate in the trial. Even if they threatened to subpoena him he probably would have said he’d go to jail than rat out Bonds. Could they hope that the stuff wouldn’t be thrown out? Sure but you have to anticipate that a lot of the evidence is circumstantial and would need to be corroborated by Anderson.

My whole thing about THG at the time not being classified as a steroid is more of just my argument on the thing. It wasn’t a steroid at the time of the Grand Jury testimony and that was what he used so technically when asked if he ever knowingly took steroids its a technicality. I don’t know what else he took so who knows.

Do I want justice to prevail? Yes but I’m more concerned with the fact that Barry wasn’t treated with any justice in mind. Was he sneaky about the way he answered? Yes he was smart when he said “Not to my knowledge” because it was vague. But reading certain articles about this really turns me off to the situation. He was I believe set up in the way that the questioning was. And the way Jeff Novitzky went about things and how much he hated Bonds and what he wanted to get out of taking him down is infuriating to me. Bonds is as much of a victim as he is a perpetrator and it sucks that he used and that he wasn’t honest about it but its a lot bigger than this now. I wish he didn’t use, because he was a HOFer without the steroids and he dug himself in a hole with this because he gave people an excuse to hate him (more than his personality) and it gives the writers a reason about why he shouldn’t make it into the hall. Its a tricky subject all around.

"He knocks a stake through the heart of the Cardinals! The Cardinals are dead! The Giants are going to the World Series!!!" -Jon Miller

t's Posey time!!

Screw you Flannery.

by sanfrankid on Feb 13, 2011 9:49 PM PST up reply actions  

As I've said before

This whole thing is entirely stupid. Let’s look at the options Bonds had in front of him at the trial:

1. Tell the truth. If you do this, you will be punished by the league, since taking PEDs was against the rules. A fine, suspension, whatever, you’re going to suffer the consequences of coming clean.
2. Lie. If you do this, you’re perjuring yourself, and opening yourself up to the legal consequences of that, assuming they can prove you lied. Even if they can’t, you don’t know that, so you’re taking a risk.
3. “Plead the fifth”; refuse to answer questions. Pleading the fifth doesn’t actually apply here (I think), since he wouldn’t face criminal charges if he told the truth, so that’s not really an option. You can then either not answer any questions and go to jail for obstruction/contempt, or answer questions vaguely enough that you’re not technically lying, but you’re not really telling the truth, which is hard to do, and risky, since unless you say just the right thing you could open yourself up to the consequences of (1) or (2).

Bonds essentially chose the third option, but while I think he answered vaguely enough to not face the legal consequences of (2), that hasn’t been decided yet. But more to the point, there wasn’t a clean escape route here. There was really nothing Bonds could have done to escape punishment unless he chose (3) and got lucky, and he shouldn’t have to rely on luck to keep him out of jail when he didn’t break the law.

Some will say that Bonds deserved to be in that position; he broke the rules set forward by MLB, so he should have to face the consequences, namely (1). Those people would have a point if this were a completely internal matter, an investigation carried out by Major League Baseball. But it wasn’t; the moment Congress got involved, this had legal consequences, and that’s not fair, since Bonds didn’t break any laws. Congress had no business getting involved with baseball’s problems; they don’t put GM employees on the stand and ask them if they’ve been using drugs at work. They don’t put Boeing employees on the stand and as them about artificial stimulants. MLB is a private business, and Congress has no business policing them, or helping to police them (as long as they’re not breaking any laws). Once Congress got involved, they removed any legitimacy of any sentences handed down by MLB, the only body that should have been doling out punishment. Bonds was screwed when he was called to that witness stand, and the fact that he was essentially trapped by MLB and the government means whatever he may or may not have done should not carry any consequences.

Ain't no Posey like a Buster Posey cause a Buster Posey don't stop...hitting.

Giants baseball: We're stupid enough to WIN that (TM)

by quincy0191 on Feb 13, 2011 11:39 PM PST up reply actions  

And with your option 3, he actually was pretty smart about the way he went about answering the questions. He played it right with the not knowingly pretty much saying I did but I didn’t do it on purpose. I too agree that the government should never have gotten involved in this matter. No matter what reason they give about the integrity of the game and of children looking up to athletes and steroid usage, it’s just a way to take responsibility away from the parent for not teaching their kids that drug use is something that shouldn’t be done. You are right when you say that he was screwed when he got called to testify. Novitzky was going after him, that’s who he wanted and it’s disgusting the way that they tried to sabotage him and use their power to bring him down for their own selfish desires.

"He knocks a stake through the heart of the Cardinals! The Cardinals are dead! The Giants are going to the World Series!!!" -Jon Miller

t's Posey time!!

Screw you Flannery.

by sanfrankid on Feb 14, 2011 1:17 AM PST up reply actions  

I thought this was a good article titled The Persecution of Barry Bonds

"He knocks a stake through the heart of the Cardinals! The Cardinals are dead! The Giants are going to the World Series!!!" -Jon Miller

t's Posey time!!

Screw you Flannery.

by sanfrankid on Feb 13, 2011 9:51 PM PST up reply actions  

I'll just repost this comment from 2007. . .

“Re: BONDS INDICTED
OK, I’m not a lawyer. . .yet, I’m just a third year law student at UCLA, took a clinical class, Grand Jury Investigation taught by two Assistant U.S. Attorney’s. Actually, one former AUSA who’s now a City Attorney for la, and one current AUSA, which is neither here nor there, but I don’t want anyone claiming I was hiding details. . . .but I do know something about this sort of thing.

Anyhow, I will have a law degree in oh, 7 months, not that I think you need to know this, just basically trying to prevent the talking out of my ass phenomenon.

The preponderance of evidence standard which someone alluded to (I think it was rainman) is the standard of review by which a prosecution (for fed cases, its Assistant United State Attorney General) must meet for a grand jury to return an indictment as a true bill, i.e. that is the preponderance of evidence suggests that it is more likely than not that he COULD be guilty of said crimes outlined in the indictment. The percentages attached to this standard is 51%, i.e., it is more likely than not, even by the slimmest margins, that he could be guilty of these crimes.

I’m sure someone has alluded to the adage that a grand jury would indict a ham sandwich. This is actually quite true.

In our mock trials for our clinical course, no GJ failed to indict on our rather sketch “evidence” against the “alleged” defendants. Our AUSAG who taught the class basically told us if he wanted one, he would get and indictment, he knew how to bore, threaten, cajole, i.e., make it very uncomfortable for a GJ to do anything less than return a true bill, and by the way, when you graduate, if you need a job, look me up.

There is no defendant present, no judge, just a foreman from the GJ group and a AUSAG. The room is under lock and seal, protected from any “outside” influence. It’s the most biased one sided presentation of evidence presented out of context and to look as incriminating as possible while not needing to have foundation, basis, etc. .

Getting a federal indictment is for lack of proper legalease, the easiest f&*%$#@ thing in the world to do.

Yes the grand jury is allowed to ask questions, yes they are allowed to become de facto prosecutors and call witnesses that may have some bearing on the case, etc., but any good AUSA, and mind you, they wouldn’t put a rookie on this one, on how to “control” a GJ rendering them powerless and inept mimes inudating them with countless documents and long testimony to bore the hell out of them.

They are drawn from a huge pool, asked to take (and I don’t exactly remember, I mean c’mon, it was class for carribean hackers sake) a year and a half of their life off to serve on this grand jury. They hear many many many cases in this time. Everyone gets indicted. These people just want to go home. For the central district of CA, it goes from OC to SLO area. Imagine having to drive, fly, or take a train to sit on a GJ panel and listen to Joe FBI agent talk about records from blah blah blah. Especially about something like obstruction and perjury. Not a murder homicide/robbery love triangle, but lame ass charges. From experience, as a “mock” GJ member, you tune out after about 6 minutes, thinking about ponies and grass fields and coming out your shoes one time in your softball game that night. You know you’re indicting them, its not a conviction, you’re not placing him/her in jail, its like its 51% likely that he/she could have committed this crime. Just let me go home.

Hell, with minimal evidence, I could be the second gunman on the grassy nole and I wasn’t even born yet. Catch my drift?

If the GJ fails to indict on the first try, guess what? A AUSAG gets to amend the indictment because the GJ can tell him what they will or will not indict the defendant for based on the evidence, and so they amend and try again. . .with the same GJ.

There are no leading of witnesses requirements. The testimony is sealed so charges of perjury, hyperbole, out of context statements and opinions based on gut reaction without any foundation are freely permitted because as you know all GJ foremen are specialists in the rules of evidence and can separate fact from opinion from the FBI agent interpreting calender records of Greg don’t drop the soap Anderson mind you, so the AUSAG is a loose cannon, doing things that would NEVER be allowed at trial, with a layperson sitting as the “foreman”. All to prove its more likely than not that BB could have committed OOJ or perjury.

The standards are low, the stakes are low, the AUSAG gets to say and do things without the presentment of any sort of defense. The threat of holding over a GJ for days or having to come back at a later time if they can’t agree on whether to indict or not, especially with little or no knowledge about how many times they presented this to a GJ, allows me suggest this is not earth shattering.

You got a GJ indictment? That is the easiest thing to do in our legal system. No defense lawyer, little or no rules governing appropriate AUSAG conduct (besides a “guideline” of principles from the AG, nothing at stake (not a conviction), and a system set up to scare the bedjesus out of GJ who fail to indict.

This is not a hard thing to do. We talked about this case in the class. People “in the know” called this a political witch hunt, the kind that makes careers for people if you catch my drift.

Not that I’m making unfounded baseless accusations, but I could care less. Any hack AUSAG can get and indictment. The fact that it took them this long, extending the GJ time for an extra 6 months twice (I think), which imagine living in SLO, commuting to downtown la two days a week for a year and a half after not being smart enough to admit your a racist or something to get out of service (yes I know it was in SF, example), and being told that you have to be extended because the AUSAG is going back to amend the indictment for the umpteenth time because you said I’m sorry, this doesn’t even reach the ridiculously low standard of preponderance of evidence.

I hope they go to trial. I hope the defense attorney for bonds assembles a kick ass legal team and tears whoever is dumb enough to accept this assignment to shreds, pointing out how much wasted time, effort, and energy, along with taxpayer money to prove that BB took roids. Hey, we get it, everyone knows he did. Get over yourselves. You think you’ll get some SF jury to say he “knowingly” took roids? He’s already tainted/tarnished, whatever. What pisses me off is that it means I probably won’t get to see him play again.

And that’s the real travesty in this situation. I don’t get to watch the bat pump, perfect timing of the pitch and after watching the swing, before the shot takes it to the path of the ball, knowing its gone.

Anyhow, this took way longer than I thought, and my last beer is wearing off, so I’m going back to drinking, but I thought it might be helpful/insightful knowledge for the McCovey bretheren (this includes women, sorry, no all inclusive legal term that isn’t masculineded). This is all from memory and I don’t have citations and shit, so if you want to check it, go look it up, but if you have ?‘s feel free. It was funny, in watching the ESPN 30 sec little deal on the website, the legal guy used the term “the prosecutions indictment.” My first initial reaction was you idiot, its the GJ indictment, not the pros, but in thinking about what he meant, he’s right, its the prosecution’s indictment. Presenting it to a GJ is really a formality. Everyone gets indicted that that pros wants eventually. Call me when you get a conviction.
For WilltheThrill, this is Jon Miller saying goodnight. . . .

by WilltheThrill on Nov 16, 2007 3:23 AM EST reply actions"

For WilltheThrill, this is Jon Miller saying goodnight. . . .

by WilltheThrill on Feb 14, 2011 1:27 AM PST up reply actions  

Bonds is still great at working the counts

"There was no torture in the end. Only rapture." - Mike Krukow
2010 Giants: World Series Champs

Neal before Zod!
Official Sponsor of the 1997 San Francisco Giants

by nostocksjustbonds on Feb 11, 2011 9:48 AM PST reply actions   1 recs

let's hope he gets a walk

Honorary parent of Duane Kuiper, beloved solar powered broadcaster and power hitting coach for the Giants.

by Giant Voodoo on Feb 11, 2011 10:34 AM PST up reply actions  

/ golf clap

I'm a Giants Fan, but I'll always be rooting for Matt Downs
Where is Dan Burkhart going to play ?

by nvsfg on Feb 11, 2011 6:19 PM PST up reply actions  

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