Preview of Giants Opening Day Lineup (Updated)
by jake24 on Dec 7, 2011 5:28 PM PST
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PrintThe trade for Angel Pagan defiantly made a lot of people mad because of the departure of fan favorite, Andres Torres, but let's be realistic. Torres has been a journeyman his whole entire career, and just happened to have a good year when the Giants won the championship. The truth is that is was a fluke. I give all the credit in the world to Andres, but a move like this had to be made.
The other part of the trade, was Ramon Ramirez. Ramirez had a great 2011 in the Giants bullpen. This will defiantly take in an immediate impact on the depth of their Bullpen. The Giants might need to find somebody to fill out the back end of the pen, but Ramirez will be hard to replace. Even though he struggled in big situations at times, Ramirez proved to be a consistent force that Bochy could rely on.
Now the main addition for the Giants in this trade was center fielder, Angel Pagan. Pagan will bring an element to the Giants that they have desperately needed for the past couple of years. This element being SPEED. With Gary Brown on the verge of coming up to the show, Pagan could be a decent short term fill in. For those of you who don't have much information of Pagan, here is a section out of a newsletter to Giants subscribers: "Pagan, 30, hit .262 (125-for-478) with 24 doubles, four triples, seven home runs and 56 RBI while going 32-for-39 in stolen base attempts in his fourth campaign with the Mets and his sixth overall in the big leagues last season. The Puerto Rico native finished with a career best-tying 44 walks and played in 123 games, the second most of his career. He also finished with the second most runs (68), doubles, home runs, RBI, at-bats and stolen bases of his career."
Those are decent stats for a lead off hitter who did not play a full year. His numbers would be much better if he had 600 AB's, which I think is something the Giants should expect from him. He will likely take over center field for the Giants, even though many insiders say that his defense is sub-par. Making me question if he has the ability to control the spacious outfield that Atat Park presents. Below is a preview of the Giants opening day lineup.
#1: Angel Pagan
#2: Freddy Sanchez
#3: Pablo Sandoval
#4: Buster Posey
#5: Aubrey Huff
#6: Brandon Belt
#7: Melky Cabrera
#8: Alex Gonzalez- Yes I do think the Giants will eventually sign the ageing veteran shortstop.
#9: TIMMY!
What do you guys think about this lineup? Will it be enough to win the N.L. West crown in 2012?
Follow me on Twitter: @TheJakeMan24
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Freudian slip?
I defintely approve of your misuse of the word defiantly. Or should that be, I defiantly approve of your non-use of the word definitely.
"There ain’t much to being a ballplayer, if you’re a ballplayer." - Honus Wagner
by Fla-Giant on Dec 7, 2011 5:54 PM PST reply actions 3 recs
FYI
Melky is going to hit in the 3rd, 5th or 6th slot to start off the year. There’s no way that Boch would hit Huff or Belt ahead of him. Secondly, Belt is not going to get many starts in Bochy’s lineup to begin the year – if he’s even on the 25 man roster. Unless Belt has a monster spring training, we’ll almost certainly see Belt in Fresno, Huff at 1B, Nate in RF, Melky in LF and Pagan in CF. Even if Belt starts the year in SF, I expect him to be back in Fresno as soon as he has his first slump at the plate.
"There ain’t much to being a ballplayer, if you’re a ballplayer." - Honus Wagner
If it’s true that Pagan really doesn’t feel comfortable hitting leadoff, it seems possible that we could still get Melky in the leadoff spot. We know Bochy responds to player requests when it comes to batting order positions.
MY DAD WAS WRONG!
MY BOY NEEDS TO THROW HARDER!
It really just depends on who is the center fielder because that is who bochy will bat leadoff.
by krukkuipandclint on Dec 7, 2011 8:59 PM PST up reply actions
We need some Power, and Belt may be the best power hitter on this team.
Let Belt and Pill Platoon at first. Move Huff to shortstop. He played there in T ball.
I want Belt to be on the team, but only if he’s going to play regularly. Let’s face it, as long as Huff is still on the team, and the Giants have a chance to win the division, Boch isn’t going to play Belt on a regular basis. With the current roster, I’d rather see Belt start the year in Fresno where he’ll play every day and Boch can’t mess with his mojo.
"There ain’t much to being a ballplayer, if you’re a ballplayer." - Honus Wagner
Belt playing and hitting seems more and more to me like a key to our season. Doesn’t have to be there to start with, but I think we need four steady months of Belt belting in the middle of our lineup to be good enough.
MY DAD WAS WRONG!
MY BOY NEEDS TO THROW HARDER!
Don’t you think that Huff will have to be off the active roster by the end of May (a la a Bengie-style trade or an injury) for that to happen on a Bochy team?
"There ain’t much to being a ballplayer, if you’re a ballplayer." - Honus Wagner
No, Evan and Xanthan and I were talking about this on the other thread and we seemed to come to a consensus that the most important evaluation is Belt vs. Nate. And even with Bochy I don’t see how that decision can swing in Nate’s favor for long (not to mention he’s like to hurt himself anyway).
MY DAD WAS WRONG!
MY BOY NEEDS TO THROW HARDER!
I guess I can see a lineup of Huff/Pagan/Melky OF with Belt 1B and Posey C against RH, and Posey moving ot 1B against LHP with Hector or whoever the backup C is taking Belt’s spot.
MY DAD WAS WRONG!
MY BOY NEEDS TO THROW HARDER!
This whole Belt vs. Nate discussion hinges on:
Huff being able to play OF better than a chalk outline.
Nate can play RF though
Without him, you’re have to either play Pagan and Cabrera in CF/RF or suffer serious defensive problems/unknowns (we don’t have enough info on Belt’s ability to play right yet I don’t think, though obviously with practice he should be a solid RF). In any case, I think Nate stays on the roster just because we don’t have that many strong defensive outfielders without Torres. Belt can be replaced by Huff and he’s far more of a rookie than Schierholtz.
Seth Rosin can hit the side of a barn with a baseball. From space.
Giants baseball: We're stupid enough to WIN that (TM)
Nate’s definitely on the roster. But I don’t see any issues with Pagan/Cabrera as our CF/RF. In fact, that’s sort of my assumed set up most the time.
MY DAD WAS WRONG!
MY BOY NEEDS TO THROW HARDER!
I don't see problems for that as the starting lineup
But without Nate the bench is a little thin.
Seth Rosin can hit the side of a barn with a baseball. From space.
Giants baseball: We're stupid enough to WIN that (TM)
I see what happened
I think I mistook the intent of the original comment. I thought you were suggesting that Belt vs. Nate would become an either/or proposition for a roster spot, but it seems more likely that you were talking about being one of the starting eight. That makes more sense.
Seth Rosin can hit the side of a barn with a baseball. From space.
Giants baseball: We're stupid enough to WIN that (TM)
You know the Mets wanted a solid reliever that was not otherwise easy to pick up. This will leave a void in the giants pen.
The Mets had two problems with Pagan, 1. is that they said he had a low baseball IQ. often throwing to the wrong base.
2. is that he has been reported as complaining about batting leadoff. He does not like to bat leadoff. I don’t know how you can be sure that Torres was a fluke in 2009 and 2010, maybe injuries effected him in 2011, and perhaps he will bounce back in 2012. You just cannot be that certain.
The Giants have Dan Otero in Fresno who can likely fill RamRam’s shoes very aptly in 2012. I also think that Hembree can likely be available to make the jump to SF by the middle of August or early September. Guillermo Mota is also still available on the FA market and I think he could fill in for RamRam. Let’s not forget that RamRam was due for a return to the norm sometime soon – he’s unlikely to remain the very good reliever that he was during his time with the Giants.
"There ain’t much to being a ballplayer, if you’re a ballplayer." - Honus Wagner
Otero’s a low velocity righty, right? It’ll be interesting to see how that plays at the MLB level. Did Joaquin resign or is he gone this time? I agree that I think we’ll see Hembree this year. Really the Cards success should embolden teams to bring up live arms in the middle of a pennant race and we’ll have some of those in AA when the need arises. I like guys with stuff better than strike throwers with minus velocity from the right side.
MY DAD WAS WRONG!
MY BOY NEEDS TO THROW HARDER!
good points
My recollection from listening to games on the radio this summer is that Otero got his velocity back to the low-90s once he fully rehabbed his arm. Do you remember what they were saying about his stuff when he was in Richmond this year? Joaquin is still a free agent as far as the official newswires seem to indicate. Wilmin Rodriguez or Jean Machi might be other candidates to step in for RamRam.
"There ain’t much to being a ballplayer, if you’re a ballplayer." - Honus Wagner
Wilmin’s a lefty, though. I don’t really know much about Machi. Comments I remember about Otero in Richmond was “he’s a strike thrower,” “fills up the strike zone,” “aggressive within the zone,” all of which I take to be the “she’s got a great personality” of pitcher scouting reports. Though it’s true, he is a strike thrower.
MY DAD WAS WRONG!
MY BOY NEEDS TO THROW HARDER!
I just saw that Baggs says Mota will be back in SF next year. That pretty much leaves the long reliever spot open for Otero, Machi, Rodriguez or some roster-invitee. Of course, maybe SurKamp has a great ST and wins the #5 spot – moving Zito to the pen.
"There ain’t much to being a ballplayer, if you’re a ballplayer." - Honus Wagner
I think we’ll see Hector Correa at some point during the season, if not from the start…
California Leaguers beware: Chris Gloor will strike you out faster than you can say "Quinnipiac", or he would have if he had pitched more than five innings this year before getting hurt...
by crazedcrustacean on Dec 7, 2011 11:11 PM PST up reply actions
Yeah, Kroon retired. Hopefully the Giants give him some job in the org, because he’s a good guy to have around.
"There ain’t much to being a ballplayer, if you’re a ballplayer." - Honus Wagner
"Job in the organization" is almost become a cliche
Bold Prediction: Pablo Sandoval finishes 1st or 2nd in 2012 NL MVP voting. I'm Twittering now (well maybe not literally now): @GoofusMcP
True ‘dat, but I believe that Kroon made a real strong impression with the brass by not whining and setting a good example for the younger prospects. Not to mention that he’s a hit with the fans and can double as a public relations draw.
"There ain’t much to being a ballplayer, if you’re a ballplayer." - Honus Wagner
I think Edlefsen is supposed to be in the pen next year
With Ramirez gone, that spot’s his to lose.
Seth Rosin can hit the side of a barn with a baseball. From space.
Giants baseball: We're stupid enough to WIN that (TM)
Edlefsen seems like more of a ROOGY to me, and I believe he’s behind Runzler on the depth chart. I also think that Otero, Matos, Machi, Rodriguez and Correa will be competing with those 2 guys for the final bullpen spot.
"There ain’t much to being a ballplayer, if you’re a ballplayer." - Honus Wagner
Gotta believe guys on the 40 man have the first, second, and third shots (lest you be forced to put guys on waivers that you just moved to protect), which means Runzler, Edlefsen, Correa, and Otero are the last roster spot and first guys up from the minors (don’t forget we’ve got that crazy 26th man for DH rules this year).
MY DAD WAS WRONG!
MY BOY NEEDS TO THROW HARDER!
I agree that the 40-man guys will get better looks, but they’ll have 2 spots open on the 40-man once they waive Eli, so it wouldn’t be a big issue to put another reliever on it to take RamRam’s spot. Edlefsen has always seemed to have pretty dramatic LH/RH splits. Last year at Fresno it was: ERA=7.71, BAA=.362 vs. ERA=4.32, BAA=.275
"There ain’t much to being a ballplayer, if you’re a ballplayer." - Honus Wagner
Do you think they're going to carry three LH relievers?
Particularly one who’s a LOOGY (Lopez, whether they realize it or not) and Runzler, who hasn’t really stuck and may have something left as a starter (3.98 ERA/3.45 FIP in Fresno)? I doubt it.
Edlefsen by no means has the job outright, but I think he’s the frontrunner right now. And as a low-K GB-inducing sinkerballer I think he could eat some innings.
Seth Rosin can hit the side of a barn with a baseball. From space.
Giants baseball: We're stupid enough to WIN that (TM)
I do think that they’ll keep 3 as long as Runzler pitches well. The Giants don’t see Affeldt and Runz as LOOGY’s, so it’s not a big issue for them. Affy and Runz can both give Boch multiple innings at any point in a guven game.
I think the depth chart for the final pen spot goes:
Runzler, Correa, Otero, Edlefsen, Machi, Matos, Rodriguez
Runz and Correa get the nod over Otero and Edlefsen because they can more readily pitch for 2-4 innings. Otero and Edlefsen are more 5 batters-max type of guys.
"There ain’t much to being a ballplayer, if you’re a ballplayer." - Honus Wagner
They've carried three in the past, iirc.
Anytime Runzler’s come up these past two years, they’ve had 3.
But that typically hasn't been for long
And at the beginning of the 2010 season they didn’t have Lopez – they got him at the deadline because Runzler hurt himself and they needed another LHP because Affeldt wasn’t doing well. Since we got Lopez, Runzler was only on the roster for two non-September months and a couple appearances in August of last year, one of which was a start.
Seth Rosin can hit the side of a barn with a baseball. From space.
Giants baseball: We're stupid enough to WIN that (TM)
I do remember Krukow mentioning in one of those games
about the embarassment of riches the Giants had in their bullpen lefties.
Maybe the FO was listening and wants to repeat it?
LOL at Belt starting!
Other than that, it’s pretty close to what we’re getting. I don’t think we plan on signing Alex Gonzalez anymore, but next year’s SS is gonna suck either way.
Now the main addition for the Giants in this trade was center fielder, Angel Pagan. Pagan will bring an element to the Giants that they have desperately needed for the past couple of years. This element being SPEED.
Yeah. Good thing Pagan is soooo much faster than Torres.
/facepalm
Also
Because the thing that’s kept us from being a good offense is SPEED. Hell, the Yankees would be nothing if they didn’t have Gardner and Granderson! And the Red Sox offense is completely dependent on Jacoby Ellsbury and Carl Crawford!
The Giants need OBP. We don’t have the fastest team, but with Molina gone we have some pretty good runners – Huff’s probably the slowest guy on the team and he hit an inside-the-park-home run in 2010. Then again, so did Molina.
Seth Rosin can hit the side of a barn with a baseball. From space.
Giants baseball: We're stupid enough to WIN that (TM)
I don't see Keppinger as a part of the 2012 team
He’s either non-tendered or traded.
Seth Rosin can hit the side of a barn with a baseball. From space.
Giants baseball: We're stupid enough to WIN that (TM)
I'd bet $100 that Huff would be beat Buster in a foot race
Bold Prediction: Pablo Sandoval finishes 1st or 2nd in 2012 NL MVP voting. I'm Twittering now (well maybe not literally now): @GoofusMcP
meh
Even if it’s Buster, Buster is not THAT slow. He’s certainly not fast, but he can take the extra base and swipe one (NLDS anybody?) every so often. Plus, teams don’t typically look for speed from their C; having a slow catcher is like having a religious conservative – not every A is B, but a hell of a lot of them are.
Seth Rosin can hit the side of a barn with a baseball. From space.
Giants baseball: We're stupid enough to WIN that (TM)
other possibility
#1: Angel Pagan
#2: Melky Cabrera
#3: Pablo Sandoval
#4: Buster Posey
#5: Brandon Belt
#6: Aubrey Huff / Schierholtz
#7: Freddy Sanchez / Jeff Keppinger
#8: Brandon Crawford / Burriss
#9: TIMMY!
What I want and what will happen are two very different things.
What i would like to see
1)Pagan (CF)
2) Belt (1B)
3) Pablo (3B)
4) Posey ©
5) Huff (LF)
6) Cabrera (RF)
7) Sanchez (2B)
8) Crawford (SS)
9) Pitcher
What I expect
1) Pagan
2) Sanchez
3) Cabrera
4) Sandoval
5) Posey
6) Huff
7) Schierholtz
8) Crawford
Adoptive father of Caleb Hous.... hous... housyourdaddy?
by OmahaGiants on Dec 8, 2011 8:26 PM PST reply actions 1 recs
What you want to see is what I want to see. I love thinking about lineups, but I do wonder how important they really are. Plus, they change constantly throughout the year.
by sil lum panda on Dec 8, 2011 9:18 PM PST up reply actions
I love auto format
Posey is copyrighted.
Still the father of two-time Cy Young Award winner Tim Lincecum.
"Failure is not fatal, but failure to change might be." - John Wooden
Ahh... but is he...
trademarked and patent pending?
That seems like the best lineup, though I’d like to flip Posey and Belt in the order.
MY DAD WAS WRONG!
MY BOY NEEDS TO THROW HARDER!
I’d also rather see Nate in RF (hitting 6th), Melky in LF (hitting 5th) and Huff on the bench.
"There ain’t much to being a ballplayer, if you’re a ballplayer." - Honus Wagner
I’ll make a crazy wager and say I’d put my money on Huff being a better hitter this year than Nate. That could well be wrong wrong wrong, but Nate’s got more value to me coming off the bench.
MY DAD WAS WRONG!
MY BOY NEEDS TO THROW HARDER!
Huff’s definitely got that alternate-year trend going for him, but I think that Nate made signifucant strides with the bat last year and he will continue to improve this year. I just don’t see Huff hitting significantly better than Nate for his below-average D to make him more valuable than Nate as an everyday player. Despite what Boch says now, I don’t see Huff getting a ton of games in the OF (barring an injury to Nate, Melky or Pagan – knock on wood) in 2012. If he’s going to be a consistent starter it will be at 1B.
"There ain’t much to being a ballplayer, if you’re a ballplayer." - Honus Wagner
Huff would have to be significantly better to offset the difference in OF defense.
Assuming we’re talking either Huff or Nate, then Belt is playing.
If Belt’s at 1B, as Bochy has said, then the defensive comparison is pretty straightforward: Nate in RF, Melky LF vs. Melky RF, Huff LF. Maybe Melky stays in RF no matter what (what a waste of Nate’s cannon), then it’s just Nate LF vs. Huff LF.
If Belt rotates into LF for Huff, then the defensive comparison is trickier:
Belt LF, Huff 1B vs. Nate LF, Belt 1B. The latter has Nate > Belt in LF and Belt > Huff in 1B. So his bat better be much better to offset both defensive gains. If Nate rotates Melky out, it just compounds it more.
The Giants have this weird shiftable defensive spectrum from RF —> LF —> 1B, and Huff is bad at the first two, average at the last. Nate is v. good at the first two, everyone else is in between. Kinda like how a good reliever pushes everyone else down a notch.
It wouldn’t take much to be a significantly better hitter than Nate. I also think his defensive prowess might get a bit of exaggeration around here. He’s good. Is he great? I wouldn’t say so.
MY DAD WAS WRONG!
MY BOY NEEDS TO THROW HARDER!
He’s sort of like Randy Winn. Scrunchy lefty hitter, good D. The kind of guy you shouldn’t chase after in FA maybe? The local angle definitely helps, but he’s most likely just a good average ballplayer. I do like it when he guns dudes down though.
Now I’m gonna go look at the cool Angel Pagan video on youtube again. He guns Bill Hall at the plate on one of em.
Bill James projects Nate
for a .328 wOBA. ZiPs projects him to a 99 wRC+. He has a career +12 UZR/150 in the OF.
That would add up to 3 WAR in a full-time role if he can meet either of those projections and maintain his career defense.
I don’t see Huff producing 3 WAR in a full-time role. He’d have to have one helluva a bounceback season to do that, and I’d be ecstatic.
Actually, looking at the defense and projections, I think we, as a fan-base, and the Giants brass seriously undervalue Nate. A 3 WAR cost-controlled player is nothing to sneeze at. If I were the Giants, I’d be looking to buy out his next 2-3 arb-years on the cheap.
Looking at Nate's projections makes me really want to bitchslap Savvy Sabes
Melky $4.4MM, Affeldt $4.5MM… That’s $9MM that could’ve gone to Beltran, who’s not projected to sign for much more than that. He could easily sign a Huff-daddy deal. $9,$11,$13($2buyout) would’ve done it. It also would’ve allowed JoSa to be traded for some league-minimum talent UT-IF insurance or prospects.
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