Andres Still A Giant?
by shankbone on Dec 1, 2011 8:35 AM PST
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Tick tick tock. We are coming up on the deadline for a decision a lot of Giant fans are dreading. Andres Torres.
So Sabey Sabes deliberately doesn't say anything about Torres at his end of season presser, stating instead that they have a need at CF. According to Baggs, Torres is in the weight room working out as the conference was going on. Melky Cabrera is acquired. Torres is arbitration eligible at an estimated 2.5MM. Some fans see the promotion of Tyler Graham to join Justin Christian and the signing of Gregor Blanco as Sabean creating leverage to lowball Torres into a take it or leave it contract, as low as $1MM. There is also the very real chance of an outright DFA.
One argument is that Torres is 33 years old, he has had the usual hammy/quad injuries that speed guys get, his ADD issues can't be fixed and his bat has faded away. The Giants can't fix his issues, and have to cut ties.
Another argument looks at his 3 seasons here, Baseball-Reference WAR of 1.8, 4.6 and 1.3 in the past 3 years for a total of 7.7 WAR. Very useful player, even as a 4th OF and pinch hitter/runner assuming he can't get back to that career year in 2010. Will he continue to put up this type of value is ultimately what the Giants have to decide.
Perhaps more than any other Giant from the World Series run, Torres sparks a lot of emotion and love. He won the WillieMac award, he took over from bunk ass Rowand and he ran with it. He's one of my favorite underdog stories and one of my favorite Giants. I want to be in the 4th OF camp. But I have to acknowledge its a steep hill for him to climb and the Giants might have very good reasons for going in a different direction.
Quick poll: What will Sabean do here: (NOT what SHOULD he do)
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ah, maybe that 4th option was unnecessary. Or there needs to be a sub-poll for the reason behind the DFA. Any rec from a more experienced better pollster?
Unfortunately, Torres doesn’t have control over such an option. The Giants control him, so they can offer him arb without permission. If they do that then the act of Torres telling Sabes to “stuff it” will mean that Torres will have to retire from pro ball. That just isn’t going to happen.
"There ain’t much to being a ballplayer, if you’re a ballplayer." - Honus Wagner
Pet peeve: Slanted polls
Your response choices look more like a reason to take pot shots at management than actually measure what people think will happen.
The choice that most closely resembles my choice would be option #2, but it should be worded “Don’t offer him arb, but bring him back at something less than $2.5M”
I think they’ll bring him back for something around $1.5 to $2M, which would be fair (as opposed to “lowball”) given that his career performance has been pretty uneven and he’s probbaly a 4th OF on the 2012 team.
As others have said, given the need for RHH, Ross might be a better choice than Torres anyway.
So I guess this means the Phillies making it past the 1st round of the 2010 post season was a fluke.
I think it’s pretty obvious that the Giants plan to play hardball with Torres similar to how they handled Fontenot at this time last year. They’ll try to sign him to a contract that pays him around $1M (with possibly some incentives that would bring him up another $.5-1M) between now and the Dec. 12th arb deadline. If Torres and his agent insists on going to arb then the Giatns will DFA him and go in another direction.
"There ain’t much to being a ballplayer, if you’re a ballplayer." - Honus Wagner
This
But I think even if they DFA him they’ll try to bring him back, and I think Andres wants to come back. He’s a great player even for $2.5M, but they won’t pay him that much.
Seth Rosin can hit the side of a barn with a baseball. From space.
Giants baseball: We're stupid enough to WIN that (TM)
Yeah
And since SF is the only place he’s seen success, I’d wager he really prefers to stay here rather than take his chances on the open market.
It’s one thing for a Jose Reyes to be a FA, but for guys like Torres and Vogelsong, who’ve seen more rejections than offers, a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush. (I’d make a “bush” joke, but it it’s so passe now that everyone seems to shave, wax or laser.)
So I guess this means the Phillies making it past the 1st round of the 2010 post season was a fluke.
There is going to be a 5,000 comment shitstorm here if they DFA Torres
Juan "Doesn't Cheat The Game" Perez, future CF for the World Champion San Francisco Giants.
"And besides, if I wanted to participate in a mindless patriotic ritual where my voice isn’t really heard, I would vote." - Chris Marcil
What if they sign Alex Gonzalez or Coco Crisp on the same day? It could hit 50K.
"There ain’t much to being a ballplayer, if you’re a ballplayer." - Honus Wagner
dont even consider the idea
dont want it to be real. thoughts are too real.
I will gladly provide a plurality of those 5,000 comments.
Once more, coming to you by proxy.
by howtheyscored on Dec 1, 2011 3:22 PM PST up reply actions
Huh?
Once more, coming to you by proxy.
by howtheyscored on Dec 1, 2011 3:22 PM PST up reply actions
which part? The initial poll, the biased question rethink (yeah, I screwed around trying to be a funny guy, that doesn’t usually work so well) or the refreshed Zogby version?
Thanks man.
Judging from the time the various comments were posted...
…I’d guess he might not have seen the original poll.
I do appreciate the adjustments you made. Thanks!
So I guess this means the Phillies making it past the 1st round of the 2010 post season was a fluke.
The Giants can save about 11 million by not offering arbitration to most of the non-vital names on their list, and by that I include players like Keppinger, Fontenot, Torres, Casilla, and Ramirez. I can see them going this route to pursue an essential like Beltran and a non essential like Gonzalez. The fact that they’re trying to trade Ramirez makes it possible they’ll attempt to save on his salary.
Proud owner of over 20,000 comments. (most of them in the wrong place) Oh yeah, and Buster Posey
Maybe they're trying to sign Beltran now
…and will make the decisions on those other guys based on whether they land Beltran.
That would make the most sense to me.
So I guess this means the Phillies making it past the 1st round of the 2010 post season was a fluke.
Very unlikely
At a minimum, Casilla and Ramirez will be arbed (if not signed prior to Dec. 12th). They are just too much desired by other teams to not be brought back. Neither is going to get more than $4M in arb (and it’s likley going ot be closer ot $3M), so they will be easy for Sabes to trade should he need to free up salary later. Don’t forget, the Giants don’t have to begin paying players their 2012 salaries until they report to spring training. I alos think that one of Keppnger or Fontenot will be tendered – most likely it will be Fontenot.
"There ain’t much to being a ballplayer, if you’re a ballplayer." - Honus Wagner
Seems to me the way the MI market has exploded this winter that it wouldn’t be a bad idea to tender both and then trade the one you don’t want. There are some crazy contracts being signed for these types right now.
MY DAD WAS WRONG!
MY BOY NEEDS TO THROW HARDER!
Agreed
All of those players have enough trade value that at the very least we can get salary relief, which means non-tendering them is a waste of resources.
Seth Rosin can hit the side of a barn with a baseball. From space.
Giants baseball: We're stupid enough to WIN that (TM)
Surely they could pick up some more Hector Correa type arms or whatever. Those are by no means worthless.
MY DAD WAS WRONG!
MY BOY NEEDS TO THROW HARDER!
I would imagine they could get something mildly interesting
But I was just saying there’s virtually no risk in tendering contracts to everyone – even if you can’t get an interesting player in return, I seriously doubt they’d have to eat salary or add a player to trade any of Keppinger/Fontenot/Ramirez/Casilla/Torres. Ramirez, Casilla, and Fontenot in particular will absolutely be tendered.
Seth Rosin can hit the side of a barn with a baseball. From space.
Giants baseball: We're stupid enough to WIN that (TM)
Yes and I was agreeing with you. Or agreeing with you agreeing with me. So I was in agreeance with myself. And you.
MY DAD WAS WRONG!
MY BOY NEEDS TO THROW HARDER!
It’s like a vicious cycle of agreeing.
Seth Rosin can hit the side of a barn with a baseball. From space.
Giants baseball: We're stupid enough to WIN that (TM)
Something's not right
It’s just not the MCC Way.
Not anymore!
Obviously any links in the above post are probably NSFW
The baseball gods do not always punish the wicked but they will not just allow people to spit in their faces -- Joe Posnanski
Kudos, You are a sick, sick man, but you are very good at it -- wcw
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