The issue of Barry Zito
by UnleashTheGore on Nov 18, 2011 9:00 AM PST
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2012 seems like it's going to be a fork-in-the-road season for Zito's future with this team. After a somewhat encouraging 2009 season, he's had two sub-par seasons, even by his standards. With 2 years and $39 million left on his contract, at what point should he get the Rowand treatment if his downward spiral continues?
There seems to be a few options. My favorite would be making him sell peanuts, hoping his pride would make him retire early, but I'm going to take a guess that management won't go for that, so on to real options...
1) Send him to the bullpen. I believe it's pretty widely accepted that his warmup routine precludes him from being an effective reliever.
2) Trade him. Probably not happening, unless there's another Alfonso-for-Finley, bad-contract swap with a team that needs pitching badly enough...Boston? (Crawford), Yankees? (A-Rod). Not that I'd really be on board for that, since it would strap the team's payroll for a longer period of time, but it's an interesting thought to take a chance on hitters that used to be pretty good.
That leaves two realistic options, in my mind...
3) Cut him. If he continues to struggle, most of the fan base would probably be happy with this, whether it's the right decision or not. We're all tired of seeing him nonchalantly struggle, and as with the other Barry, part of many people would just feel good about moving on from that era of the team. The question is, can he contribute in any way to this team, or is it worth paying $39 million to clear up a roster spot? It would be a hard thing to pay both Rowand and Zito to not play when we don't really know how much longer the young pitching core will stay in tact.
4) Keep him in the rotation. Lord Bork has told us this is what's happening, so we pretty much have to assume this is at least how the season will start. Trading Sanchez compounded the likelihood that the team will feel like they can't cut ties with him. Surkamp doesn't seem ready to take over in the majors yet, so there's really no alternative in-house. It seems to me like this is the most likely scenario, and we'll just have to count on losing every 5th game or so.
What would you think the best move would be if, say, he starts 0-6 again, with ever decreasing velocity and K-rate and a ballooning BB-rate, showing no improvement and a lack of motivation?
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I voted keep him
For one main reason.
It’s not like the Giants are fully-stocked on 5th starters in their farm system. If there was a remotely viable option to replace him, I could see the logic in pulling the plug, but unless something changes, there aren’t any real other starters ready to join a ML rotation
I came, I saw, I told bad jokes and left.
Makes sense to keep him and see if he can possibly rebound in early 2012 then wne his suckatude continues cut him or stow him on the disabled list — back pain from carry around huge wads of unearned cash — in case of Armageddon-like situation such as MadBum being eaten by a cow.
"What makes you think you're Jesus Christ?"
"Well, when I pray I seem to be talking to myself"
He will be wanted somewhere and wil go and play while the Giants pay. I do not believe that the Todd Wellenmeyers of the world offer a significant upgrade for a 5th starter. I am OK with 0-6 and an ERA of 4.25, with 2 .2 rpg support I am not OK with an ERA of 7+. I think his ERA will be in the 4.25-5,25 range and that is most 5th starters. I want a Bench coach that can throw Bochy over the baseline if Zito trots out to begin the 6th inning.
Go Giants
PR game. Giants declare him the 5th starter. They’ll get some other guy though to compete. And Surkamp. He’ll suck, because he can’t throw harder than 83-84 and has no idea where his curve ball is going. He’ll have 1 good game, 1 mediocre game and then start really getting shelled. So then they’ll kick him to the bullpen. Or he’ll have an “Injury”. Eventually he will go to AAA to learn a knuckleball.
It’ll take up way too much ink, and way too much of everybody’s time. I was on the “Zito is a league average starter he’s worth half his contract” bandwagon until last year. If he can’t throw 87-88 and show a little bit of spine he’s useless. He has no trade value, and the PR driven Giants refuse to just cut losses. Just a big boooo! for Zito, but also not even worth getting mad about anymore. Sunk cost, move on. The Giants would rather play this PR game where they’re getting some value out of him.
This is the hidden edge of the Sanchez trade.
Zito must be in the rotation. He absolutely has to be. If he’s not, that means that Dan Runzler is a finger blister away from being a starting pitcher for the San Francisco Giants. Barry Zito is now Dan Runzler insurance.
Once more, coming to you by proxy.
by howtheyscored on Nov 18, 2011 11:26 AM PST reply actions 2 recs
They're paying him no matter what
Which means the question should be whether he’s worth the roster spot. Anything like last year and he simply isn’t.
Seth Rosin can hit the side of a barn with a baseball. From space.
Giants baseball: We're stupid enough to WIN that (TM)
Rowand and Tejada were cut because they were dicks. By all accounts Zito is a good guy. There’s no reason to pay him 22 million per season to pitch for someone else.
Buster Posey: still better than Eli and Stewart, even with a broken ankle.
There’s basically no reason to cut him, we’re going to owe him that money no matter what. Sunk cost, no real-upside to cutting him except spite, basically.
GIANTS GIANTS GIANTS GIANTS
by J. Frank Parnell on Nov 18, 2011 3:55 PM PST reply actions
As quincy notes above, the potential upside would be: is there a pitcher you could put on the roster who would be a more productive pitcher?
MY DAD WAS WRONG!
MY BOY NEEDS TO THROW HARDER!
And.....
The answer is yes, without a doubt.
Matt Cain: throwing complete game shutouts since 06'. No big deal.
Giants Baseball: increase the dosage, count back from 10.
by cain1rstballothof on Nov 18, 2011 4:44 PM PST up reply actions
That the team has control of now? That pitcher was Jonathan Sanchez. Surkamp is possible, but far, far, far from being without a doubt. And then…?
It would require an acquisition, at least, I think.
Once more, coming to you by proxy.
by howtheyscored on Nov 18, 2011 11:00 PM PST up reply actions
They certainly should (and I imagine will) acquire some kind of stopgap either via NRI or minor league deal because realistically they need contingencies for both Zito repeating last year’s performance and Vogelsong not repeating last years performance. Plus just the natural injury potential.
MY DAD WAS WRONG!
MY BOY NEEDS TO THROW HARDER!
Zito for Crawford would be pretty amazing
It would essentially be signing Crawford to a backloaded 6 year 80-85 million dollar deal when you consider that Zito is a sunk cost and you could likely find a FA SP to match his production over the next couple years for somewhere between 2 and 8 mil. With a Beltran re-signing looking more and more unlikely a Crawford-Sanchez-Pablo-Posey-Huff-Cabrera-Barmes-Schierholtz lineup would probably be better than any realistic alternative. Unfortunately there’s no way the Red Sox would even entertain this idea.
Thing A
Why is a Beltran signing looking less and likely? The only other team showing interest is Boston, and supposedly they’re only interested if they lose David Ortiz. (which they won’t) With every passing day of no rumors, I believe the chances of signing Beltran increase.
Buster Posey: still better than Eli and Stewart, even with a broken ankle.
by rxmeister on Nov 18, 2011 4:31 PM PST via mobile up reply actions
This
Matt Cain: throwing complete game shutouts since 06'. No big deal.
Giants Baseball: increase the dosage, count back from 10.
by cain1rstballothof on Nov 18, 2011 4:47 PM PST up reply actions
The comments Baer and Sabean have made this past week have me pretty pessimistic, but I hope youre right
Thing A
The Yankees Do Not Want Barry Zito™.
Joe Nobody: The slugging speedster the Giants need, at an irrationally low price.
"118 elements, and still no stanfurdium"- carp, paraphrased
"That one's on me."- Madison Bumgarner
The Yankees Red Sox Do Not Want Barry Zito™.
Still the father of two-time Cy Young Award winner Tim Lincecum.
"Failure is not fatal, but failure to change might be." - John Wooden
I’m afraid it’s going to be another busy winter for us, sir.
Joe Nobody: The slugging speedster the Giants need, at an irrationally low price.
"118 elements, and still no stanfurdium"- carp, paraphrased
"That one's on me."- Madison Bumgarner
by natteringnabob on Nov 18, 2011 9:24 PM PST up reply actions
The thing is, we could do that for 28 other teams (The Giants wouldn’t want him if he were available).
Still the father of two-time Cy Young Award winner Tim Lincecum.
"Failure is not fatal, but failure to change might be." - John Wooden
The Yankees Red Sox Flying Squirels Do Not Want Barry Zito™.
The thing is, we could do that for 28 1000s of other teams
by betterthanbochy on Nov 19, 2011 8:30 AM PST up reply actions
maybe
I have no idea if there is some other team that might, someday, want to take him on in some circumstance. The Yankees and Red Sox don’t really take on albatross contracts. They might make their own mistakes, but they’re not dumb enough to pick up someone else’s.
Joe Nobody: The slugging speedster the Giants need, at an irrationally low price.
"118 elements, and still no stanfurdium"- carp, paraphrased
"That one's on me."- Madison Bumgarner
by natteringnabob on Nov 19, 2011 8:33 AM PST up reply actions
The Giants wouldn’t want him if he were available
Speak for your self. ’Cause if you think you are speaking for Brian Sabean, I got news for you.
Over
by cybermaldonado on Nov 25, 2011 9:34 PM PST up reply actions
I voted to cut him, and to stop paying him for breach of contract. He did not perform upto the standards of an average major league pitcher.
They paid him for ace starter production, he provided 5th starter production. He needs to give the giants back money. If they were willing to trade away Sanchez for a middle of the road outfielder, and leave the team with Zito to fill in, then they are really barking up the wrong tree unless they add a reasonably decent starter in the off season, and get at least one more middle of the order hitter to enhance the lineup. Or Jose Reyes, imagine all the wigs they can sell if Reyes is the shortstop. They could make up their 15 million a year in no time.
Totally
The best way to make sure free agents look at playing for the Giants in a favorable light is to be a total dickwad in situations like this.
2010 World Series Champions!
Adopted 'nephew' to the ever avuncular and always awesome Jon Miller
by Johnny Disaster on Nov 19, 2011 3:48 PM PST up reply actions
Union Agreement
There is a union Contract that both sides are in agreement with. There is no provision for contract dismissal because of poor play. The contract has not been breached. This idea would cause the Giants to pay the contract plus the subsequent lawsuit.
Go Giants
by Gianni on Nov 20, 2011 6:01 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Would it be worth it for the Giants to sign Roy Oswalt to a 1-2 year contract? Block Zito, get a better starter… Thoughts?
I'm thinking but nothing's happening.
I don't think the Yankee's would trade A-Rod for Zito.
A-Rod’s actually pretty good still.
Ron Paul 2012
by GovernorStephCurry on Nov 20, 2011 6:01 PM PST reply actions
I wouldn't do that straight up
Remember Rodriguez is under contract through 2017. At more than $20M a season every season, and $30M for next year. He’s blocked at 3B by Pablo (with Huff and Belt blocking Sandoval at first) and probably can’t play short anymore. Not to mention the consistent injury issues and expected decline in performance as he ages. That’s one of the few contracts in baseball that is worse than Zito’s – Rodriguez is still producing, unlike Barry, but that’s just too much money to commit to one player for that length of time.
Seth Rosin can hit the side of a barn with a baseball. From space.
Giants baseball: We're stupid enough to WIN that (TM)
He’s going to be their DH by 2014.
Once more, coming to you by proxy.
by howtheyscored on Nov 21, 2011 10:24 AM PST up reply actions
I'd say earlier
But yeah, absolutely no later.
Seth Rosin can hit the side of a barn with a baseball. From space.
Giants baseball: We're stupid enough to WIN that (TM)
The Yankees Do Not Want Barry Zito™.
Joe Nobody: The slugging speedster the Giants need, at an irrationally low price.
"118 elements, and still no stanfurdium"- carp, paraphrased
"That one's on me."- Madison Bumgarner
by natteringnabob on Nov 21, 2011 6:37 AM PST up reply actions
we won the World Series with Zito as the #2 starter
We won the world series with Zito starting the season as the #2 starter. He helped us in April and pitched well for six weeks or so after the all star break with lousy run support. He’s good in the club house — Tim’s Peanut pony — and is a fine #5 starter. Compare 2012 — Tim, Cain, Bum, Vogelsong, ZIto — with our World series rotation — Tim, Cain, Sanchez, Bum, Zito — and I think 2012 is better. Tim, Cain, and Bum were all better in 2011 and will be even better in 2012. I’ll take Vogelsong over Sanchez. And Zito is still Zito
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