Big name trading (In an ideal world)
by Wolfie2856 on Oct 6, 2011 5:16 PM PDT
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PrintSo I was looking on ESPN's Baseball Rumors the other day and it mentioned that the Reds were considering trading either Votto or Alonso, preferably to get some starting pitching in return. Now, I'm going to preface this idea with the fact that I know it will never happen. But why not consider trading Tim Lincecum for Joey Votto? Votto was the third most valuable hitter in the league according to WAR, and next year will make 9.5 million (which goes up to 17 million for 2013, though Aubrey Huff and Aaron Rowand's money comes off the books in 2013 too.) I know Tim Lincecum is the face of the Giants franchise, and easily one of the best pitchers in the Major Leagues, much less the NL. But he stands to make at least 18 million this offseason, and possibly as much as 20 or more. I think if we were to trade him, we could use some of the money we save to sign one or more of the free agent pitchers available. I think we could manage a backloaded 5 year 75-80 mill deal for CJ Wilson, then set up our rotation so it goes:
Wilson
Cain
Bumgarner
Vogelsong
5th Starter X (JoSa, or if they nontender or trade him then possibly Kuroda, Penny, Harang, Garland, etc.)
By trading Lincecum for Votto, you get a legit middle of the order lefthanded bat, and a quality, young first baseman, and can use the money you save to sign an aceworthy starter in free agency. (I personally think Wilson would love to come pitch in a park like AT&T vs. National League lineups.) And if you need to, there are a few other pieces we could include in the deal, maybe Pill's bat would play well in Great American, and would be a righthanded complement to Alonso. Like I said, I know this will never happen, but I think the deal would work out well in everyone's favor if it did.
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Freak-y trade
I agree that trading Lincecum is probably going to be the smart move sometime in the next 18 months, but as much as I like Votto, I don’t think a LH 1B is who we should be looking for in return.
What the Giants seem genetically incapable of is drafting power-hitting outfielders good enough to play in the majors. Granted, they tried to draft Barry Bonds, but excepting that I think the last really good slugging OF they drafted was…. Gary Matthews. And I’ll go out on a limb here and predict that neither Roger Kieschnick nor Tyler Graham will have as good a ML career as Sarge did (although I have some irrational hope for Chuckie Jones).
So, if we could get someone like Ryan Braun for Tim Lincecum, that would interest me.
"He has maybe one of the best arms I've ever seen; he could be playing by the concession stand and he's not out of position." - Andy Skeels, talking about 3B Chris Dominguez.
Yeah, I would agree with this. As great as Votto is, he plays a position that really doesn’t need upgrading at this point, as the Giants still have high hopes for Belt. Not only is Braun great, but he’s signed forever. Needless to say, with Fielder being a free agent, Braun isn’t going anywhere. Therefore this trade makes sense, because we keep Lincecum!
Buster Posey: still better than Eli and Stewart, even with a broken ankle.
First Base is one of the few positions we have options for. If you’re going to trade Lincecum you have to fill organizational holes. The biggest, as mentioned, are SS, corner outfielder and SP (at the minor league level). I think the only way to really get value is to trade for prospects. For example, if there’s anyway you could pry Wil Myers, Cristian Colon (if you believe he’ll stay at short) and one of their good pitching prospects from the Royals. With their system they could easily jump at that considering they have top end replacements for all of those guys. The one thing they are missing is a true Ace.
by BestHyperboleEver on Oct 7, 2011 10:38 AM PDT reply actions
LOL
The Royals couldn’t afford Lincecum, so this would be the exact opposite of a trade they would normally make. As for the Giants, trading Lincecum for prospects would really go over well in San Francisco, I don’t care how promising they are.
Buster Posey: still better than Eli and Stewart, even with a broken ankle.
Look, I’m not saying that’s the deal, but…
KC could easily afford him if they wanted to. They have essentially an entire team in their pre- or early-arb years. Their payroll is 30MM below what is has been the past few years. Their top 3 earners are Soria (potentially gone), Kendall (FA, definitely gone), and Butler (potential trade bait since Hosmer’s emergence). They could sign Timmy and still be around 50-60MM in total payroll.
As for the public support for trading Lincecum, of course it wouldn’t go over well, but that doesn’t keep it from potentially being the smart move. Move him for high-level prospects and you get more money to work with and cost-controlled future contributors.
Completely theoretically, if you were to make my trade (which was totally half baked), lock up Cain, and could sign Wilson at 5yrs/75MM (I have no idea if that’s possible, just taking it from above) then you would have an extra, what, 7-10MM to spend. If we take the theory that we can currently afford 1 quality FA, that 7-10 adds another which means next year you could see this team:
SS Rollins
2B Sanchez
LF Beltran/Willingham
3B Sandoval
C Posey
1B Belt/Huff
RF Schierholtz
CF Torres
Cain
Bumgarner
Wilson
Vogelsong
Sanchez/Zito/Surkamp
Then, 2-3 years from now you could see this as the baseline:
CF Brown
2B Panik
1B Belt
C Posey
3B Sandoval
LF Myers
RF Schierholtz
SS Colon
Cain
Wilson
Bumgarner
Lamb (for example)
Surkamp/Whoever
It’s not perfect. But it’s certainly not crazy.
by BestHyperboleEver on Oct 7, 2011 5:26 PM PDT up reply actions
Where is the money for Rollins, Beltran and Wilson coming from? That’s a lot of dough to add just by trading Lincecum.
It funny to defend a totally off-the-cuff idea with no real basis. But here goes.
First, let’s presume Willingham instead of Beltran to make it mildly less laughable.
That was built on four completely unfounded ideas cobbled together from other thread:
1. We already have the ability to sign one quality FA (lets say Rollins).
2. Wilson can be had for 13MM/year.
3. Lincecum will get somewhere around 20MM.
4. Willingham can be had for 2/12.
Thus, in this totally fantastical world the Rollins cost is already potentially available and Wilson plus Willingham would roughly equal the Lincecum savings.
There you go. Science. Just solved the next 7-8 years of Giants domination. You’re welcome.
by BestHyperboleEver on Oct 10, 2011 1:16 PM PDT up reply actions
Wilson vs. Timmy is a non-comparison
Timmy so much better, and has such a better record of success, that the difference between the two would in no way make up for any saved money in salary. Also, I strongly disagree with the assertion that Wilson will get 13mm/year.
He’s going to be the only FA starter to hit the open market (assuming CC gets resigned with NYY), and he’s going to be massively overbid upon. Everybody wants a good pitcher these days, people are confusing him for an ace, and it’s going to be like the Jayson Werth/Carl Crawford ridiculous BS all over again. A bad contract from the moment it is inked.
Wil Myers
looks like a beast in the making. If KC offered him, Colon (who would move to 2B), and say Montgomery, I’d do it in a heartbeat. But why would KC make that move, they couldn’t even afford Grienke’s team friendly contract, and Lincecum vs. Grienke plus all those aformentioned players is not even comparable. I don’t think KC needs 1 SP that bad when they are 2 years away at the most from potentially having a lights out rotation and BP.
Matt Cain: throwing complete game shutouts since 06'. No big deal.
Giants Baseball: increase the dosage, count back from 10.
by cain1rstballothof on Oct 10, 2011 8:41 AM PDT up reply actions
They would probably move Clint Robinson for Dirty though, a deal I’d quickly pull the trigger on.
Matt Cain: throwing complete game shutouts since 06'. No big deal.
Giants Baseball: increase the dosage, count back from 10.
by cain1rstballothof on Oct 10, 2011 8:45 AM PDT up reply actions
They could afford Greinke
They just took a shot at getting a lot for him while their prospects were still developing. They didn’t think contention until 2012 at the absolute earliest, more likely 2013 or so, and it’s better to get a couple guys who can be ready by then instead of Greinke who is a free agent after next year.
Seth Rosin can hit the side of a barn with a baseball. From space.
Giants baseball: We're stupid enough to WIN that (TM)
No doubt
“they” “could” afford almost anything physically obtainable on this planet, but why would they spend 1/3 of the team payroll on 1SP?, they got a great defensive SS who doesn’t do much else, a CF who’s blocked, and an SP who at best will be a partial Grienke someday. You don’t think they’d rather have Grienke in that rotation in 2012?, they’re ready to compete next year, and would be better off with Grienke than Escobar, especially moving on. Grienke’s young, and was moved because of $, not the prospects.
Matt Cain: throwing complete game shutouts since 06'. No big deal.
Giants Baseball: increase the dosage, count back from 10.
by cain1rstballothof on Oct 10, 2011 4:41 PM PDT up reply actions
And sadly too, because the KC owners have coin, and a tailor made roster to go big in the AL central. It would be a shame for their fans if those wallets don’t open.
Matt Cain: throwing complete game shutouts since 06'. No big deal.
Giants Baseball: increase the dosage, count back from 10.
by cain1rstballothof on Oct 10, 2011 4:44 PM PDT up reply actions
I'm fairly certain that Votto is more valuable than Lincecum.
And not necessarily by a small margin.
But he stands to make at least 18 million this offseason, and possibly as much as 20 or more. I think if we were to trade him, we could use some of the money we save
And this is why. If the Giants save by making the trade, the Reds must necessarily lose monetarily. The only way the Reds come out in front there is if Votto is that much worse than Lincecum as a player and even worse than that to account for the higher injury risk that pitchers carry. And unscientifically, I have the impression that Votto is at least as valuable as Lincecum is, at least currently.
I cannot fathom trading lincecum
A true Ace is a valuable commodity in today’s game. They’re worth every penny they’re paid. While you can survive with a mediocre player at a one or a few different spots if you get great production at other places in the field, you cannot easily match up against an ace unless you have one yourself, and a mediocre pitcher gives you mediocre or worse chance to win a game. An ace is not to be traded, especially if you’re a contender. Because while they can be extremely valuable in the season, they are necessary to being a dominant post-season team. Unless our franchise tanks and doesn’t make the playoffs next year or is out of the race by the trade deadline in 2013, I do not want to see Timmy pitch anywhere else. Ever.
That said, I think it would be a terrible idea to trade him for a first basemen, for reasons listed above. If Timmy will absolutely not re-sign with the Giants during his free agent years, I would only want to see him traded for:
1. Troy Tulowitzki, Robinson Cano, Curtis Granderson, Jacoby Ellsbury (Elite players at important defensive positions. No contender would trade a guy like any of these, so I find it pretty unlikely we would get a top-notch player at a place of positional scarcity.)
2. A bundle of “A”-grade prospects, with at least one ranked in the Top 5 or Top 10 MLB-wide, and another ranked in the Top 10-20, and another ranked Top 50. Ie, Strassburg and Harper, Machado and Bundy, Jurickson Profar and Martin Perez, Matt Moore and Desmond Jennings/Hak-Ju Lee, Montero and Banuelos and Nova, etc.
Established players are usually traded for prospects. Why would a contender trade away an important, established piece for another piece? It might make the team weaker, when you want to leverage the present and make the team stronger.
Timmy is worth $25mil/year. Easy. He has been worth between $30-40million almost every season so far in his career in terms of free agent WAR calculations.
Votto may be slightly more valuable than Lincecum on a year-to-year seasonal WAR basis (esp in terms of WAR to salary), but if you’re in the playoffs, there is no doubt that having Timmy pitch up to six games for you is far more valuable than having a top-tier first basemen. If you can’t strike Votto out, you can just walk him (like the tigers would do with Cano in the ALDS). You can’t negate an ace starter in a playoff game like that unless you have one yourself.
Also
There are less than 10 “TRUE” aces in the game. Having one or more of them is a distinct advantage for any contender. You pay whatever you can to keep the ones you got.
So who are the True Aces? I’m up to hear what other people think on this. My votes (in loose order, but most of these guys are pretty close to each other, also year-to-year performance fluctuates do to baseball luck and magic and god and elbows)
1. Halladay
2. Lincecum
3. Cliff Lee
4. Verlander
5. Kershaw
6. Felix
7. Weaver
8. Hamels
9. Madbum (I think he’s already there, and should get better. This might be the most debatable choice)
Josh Johnson, David Price, CJ Wilson, CC Sabathia, Jon Lester, Matt Cain, Greinke, Haren, Carpenter, Wainwright, Garza are all great pitchers and arguments could be made for any of them to be among the best 10 pitchers in baseball. Nonetheless, if you have 3 guys out of the roughly 20 names (and 1-2 of the very best of those), you want to do everything you can to keep them, even if you have to pay through the nose to do so. There are 30 teams, and at least 150 starting pitchers at any given time. If you have 3 of the top 20 pitchers in the game, you will be a contender even if the rest of your roster is littered with a number of genuinely awful players.
Daily contributors are more valuable than those on the field less than 20% of the time.
1. Playoffs
2. Missed the Playoffs
3. Playoffs (2)
4. Playoffs
5. Missed the Playoffs
6. Missed the Playoffs
7. Missed the Playoffs
8. Playoffs (3)
9. Missed the Playoffs (2)
Missed, Made, Made, Made, Missed, Missed, Made, Missed, Made, Made, Missed
The Yankees prove that you can win 100 games with less than stellar pitching, and the Giants prove, with stellar pitching and poor offense, you don’t have much.
COMIN' ATCHA, FROM ANCHORAGE, ALASKA!
Fathaigh go mbuaimid!
Proud adoptive Father of Joe Panik. 2011 NWL MVP .
Job 1:14-15
don’t really care for your comparison here. You’re taking one team that was extreme, with horrible offense and great pitching, and comparing them to a team that had great hitting, and actually pretty good pitching. If you could find a team that couldn’t pitch at all but won 100 games with just offense, your point would be correct, but I don’t think you can.
Buster Posey: still better than Eli and Stewart, even with a broken ankle.
just looked it up, and the Yankees were actually fourth in the AL in pitching, so calling their staff “less than stellar” is not accurate. The Giants, on the other hand, were last in runs scored and second in pitching.
Buster Posey: still better than Eli and Stewart, even with a broken ankle.
This was my point: 16 wins vs 13 wins, an "ace" is not necessary when you can score 8 runs per game.
Tim Lincecum: 2.74 ERA, 1.21 WHIP, 9.12 K/9, 23 QS, 3.82 Run Support
Ivan Nova: 3.70 ERA, 1.33 WHIP, 5.33 K/9, 16 QS, 8.82 Run Support
COMIN' ATCHA, FROM ANCHORAGE, ALASKA!
Fathaigh go mbuaimid!
Proud adoptive Father of Joe Panik. 2011 NWL MVP .
Job 1:14-15
That's a short-sighted argument
Barry Bonds was the greatest hitter of all time (arguably so, but without question the greatest of the past 40 years or so). The Giants went to the playoffs only three times with him. It’s the team the matters.
And right now, despite having the worst offense in franchise history, the Giants nearly made the playoffs (and would have not for the 6 or 7 players that got injured in August, IMO—Cody, Nate, Wilson, Romo—those guys matter). They were competitive all year, even after losing their best player for 3/4 of the season, because they completely dominated one-half of every inning.
If we trade Timmy, we give away that advantage. And again, there’s a reason why every contender would love to have a Timmy. There just aren’t many Timmy’s out there, past or present. He has had as good of a first four seasons as almost any pitcher in recent history. In fact, the closest comparison I could find is Roger Clemens.
The Giants can be a competitive team with an historically terrible offense because of their pitching. With Timmy gone (and replaced by a true-talent #3 like CJ Wilson), we would lose much of that edge. Timmy beat Derek Lowe twice, Roy Halladay once, and Cliff Lee twice in the postseason. You don’t trade players like that unless it’s a ridiculously one-sided deal for a cost-controlled replacement (like a Matt Moore).
I’d rather we just maintain dominant pitching for as long as possible, and if Timmy won’t resign in 2013 and the team isn’t a contender, you consider trading him. Meanwhile, the team, with some decent luck in regards to stemming the tide of injuries and getting rid of dead weight (tejada/orlando cabbage, whiteside, 2011 huff), should be able to cobble together an offense as good as 2010 and be one of the most feared teams in the 2012 post season.
If you can’t strike Votto out, you can just walk him (like the tigers would do with Cano in the ALDS). You can’t negate an ace starter in a playoff game like that unless you have one yourself.
The intentional walk doesn’t “negate” a hitter. In many cases, when a manager does it, it leads to the hitter being more productive in terms of runs he scores for his team.
yea, it's not truly negating him
but it can keep him from getting an xbh or hr and scoring runs, especially if he doesn’t have fearsome protection behind him.
but i made a poor example for a good point. The point is that when an ace starts, he dominates the game. No matter how dominant a single hitter is, he will only come up to the plate and get a chance to swing 4-6 times per game. More importantly, due to SSS shenanigans that hitters tend to face in the playoffs, I think the value of a marquee hitter is worth less than the value of one of the five best SP in baseball in a playoff game.
Like we made the world admit in the 2010 WS, good pitching almost always beats good hitting.
Fuckinaright
True that.
Unless you just flat out don’t want to spend (or don’t want to win), you never move a top 10 SP for a position player. Unless said position player is a Ted Williams or Lou Gehrig or BLB clone. As said above, maybe a Ryan Braun but only because of the team friendly contract.
Matt Cain: throwing complete game shutouts since 06'. No big deal.
Giants Baseball: increase the dosage, count back from 10.
by cain1rstballothof on Oct 7, 2011 1:24 PM PDT reply actions
IMO if the Giants were to trade Timmy
I wouldn’t go after Wilson, but save the money for next year’s Greinke/Hamels sweepstakes
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by Gobroks on Oct 7, 2011 3:56 PM PDT via mobile reply actions
In this line
Wilson is a good, but not great pitcher. I see him getting something between Lackey and Zito money, and caving under the contract. He’s been a starter for about three years. That’s not enough of a track record.
I (and others) think he’s a true talent #2/3. I wouldn’t even touch him, especially because there’s nobody else this year in FA. He’s going to get way more money than he’s worth.
so
you’re just reading the TiLi-eaves?
Joe Nobody: The slugging speedster the Giants need, at an irrationally low price.
"118 elements, and still no stanfurdium"- carp, paraphrased
"That one's on me."- Madison Bumgarner
by natteringnabob on Oct 9, 2011 11:29 AM PDT up reply actions
I like the idea of adding Votto
But, there is a major flaw in trading Timmy for Votto. Mainly, the Reds are only trading Votto because they can’t afford him, or won’t be able to afford him. If they can’t afford to pay Votto $9.5 in 2012, $17 in 2013 and $22+ after that, how are they going to afford $18 million in 2012? Why would they trade two years of Votto for one year of Timmy?
I was looking at the giants organization and tried to put together some package that could compete against what other teams would offer for Votto and the only scenarios i could think of included sending Romo and Belt to the Reds. Probably need to include Crawford and Nate to get the deal in motion. Reds want big league players at prices they can afford. Romo could be a closer and is crazy cheap for his skill set. Belt has potential and could possibly step into a starting position to help fill the void of Votto.
For Votto, i would be willing to trade Belt, without blinking an eye, but it is Romo i am wary of dealing. Joe Nathan? Anybody here remember that guy? As good as the starting rotation was, the true strength of the giants pitching staff was in the incredible pen. If the giants lose Lopez to FA and then trade Romo, they took the best pen in baseball and made it mediocre.
I like Votto over Prince and Pujols for the next decade. (Prince is a fat punk and pujols is getting older). Trade for Votto and lock him up (conveniently he becomes a FA the same year Zito rolls off the books). He can be the huge FA signing the giants need without crushing their current payroll, but i would want an extension in place before trading any major pieces for him.
There’s always a major flaw in the notion of trading a huge star head up for another huge star, which is why it’s happened so seldom in major league history that I can probably count up every example and, as my Dad used to say, still have enough fingers left over to tie my shoes. If the move is economically motivated (as it usually is), then getting back another big money vet doesn’t satisfy. If it’s baseball motivated, then the hole created by the star you give up is very difficult to offset, even with the surplus of the star you receive. It’s just a very difficult needle to thread.
MY DAD WAS WRONG!
MY BOY NEEDS TO THROW HARDER!
When it does happen . . .
. . . it’s typically because at least one and possibly both teams have stumbled into an embarrassment of riches at some spot, as when a highly promising rookie and a top-rank veteran are at the same position or role. That doesn’t happen that often, especially to two teams whose excesses and shortages match up.
Professional baseball analyst since 1980.
Wir sind gewohnt, daß die Menschen verhöhnen was sie nicht verstehn.—Goethe
Anybody got a good example?
I’m curious now.
Matt Cain: throwing complete game shutouts since 06'. No big deal.
Giants Baseball: increase the dosage, count back from 10.
by cain1rstballothof on Oct 10, 2011 8:04 PM PDT up reply actions
Arod for Soriano is the closest recent example that I can think of.
But Soriano, though certainly a star, was half the player Arod was at the time.
VAE PVTO DEVS FIO
Good one. Who was Cecil Fielder traded to NY for? It would be a tier down from Arod, but he was mashing at the time of the trade.
Matt Cain: throwing complete game shutouts since 06'. No big deal.
Giants Baseball: increase the dosage, count back from 10.
by cain1rstballothof on Oct 10, 2011 11:26 PM PDT up reply actions
Ruben Sierra and a minor leaguer who never panned out.
But it’s a bit of a stretch to call either Fielder or Sierra was a star at that point.
VAE PVTO DEVS FIO
The Crime Dog
yeah I remember that one, and I guess at the time McGriff was a superstar, nothing like Alomar though.
Matt Cain: throwing complete game shutouts since 06'. No big deal.
Giants Baseball: increase the dosage, count back from 10.
by cain1rstballothof on Oct 10, 2011 11:22 PM PDT up reply actions
Just browsing through the lists of all time MVPs and Cy Youngs (an imperfect lens, I know, but a useful place to start) it’s actually surprising how few of these big name for big name straight up kind of deals there have ever been.
There’s actually a pretty long and dismal history of the “MVP Bat for league average pitcher who pretty quickly turns to crap” type of deal; a long and dishonorable tradition beginning with the Tris Speaker for Sad Sam Jones deal, and more familiar to us in modern times with Frank Robinson for Milt Pappas (and others), Cepeda for Ray Sadecki, Willie McCovey for Mike Caldwell, and Keith Hernandez for Neil Allen.
The Giants actually appear to have pulled off the best version of that trade ever when they turned Keith Mitchell into Bill Swift, Mike Jackson, and Dave Burba. The Cepeda deal was part of a very interesting series of trades by the Cardinals, who took Ray Sadecki and traded him for Cepeda who won the MVP in his first full season with the Cardinals. And then two years later they moved Cepeda for Joe Torre, who would also win the MVP for the Cards. And finally, they traded Torre to the Mets for, among others, Ray Sadecki. That’s some high value leasing.
Anyway, all that aside, here’s the best of the heavyweight for heavyweight deals that I found:
5. 1946, Joe Gordon for Allie Reynolds. This probably doesn’t count. Reynolds had been a league average pitcher for the Indians for four years when he was sent to the Yankees for declining former MVP (old at 31!) Joe Gordon. Gordon had two more fantastic years for Cleveland before retiring at 35. Reynolds, not surprisingly found it easier to succeed pitching for the Yankees than he had with Cleveland and racked up 5 AS appearances and a top 5 MVP finish.
4. 1980. Bruce Sutter for Leon Durham (and Ken Reitz). IIRC this was a deal to stave off impending FA, but it was a good one. Sutter had won a Cy Young in 1979. Durham had been named the NL ROY literally weeks before this deal. Looks like a classic everybody wins scenario, though St. Louis wins the best since Sutter helped them to a ring in 1982.
3. 1971. What some might call the “hey shouldn’t these guys been in the HOF” deal that sent Dick Allen to the White Sox for Tommy John (and Steve Huntz) deal. The White Sox immediately got an MVP in Allen who gave them three solid years before once again wearing out his welcome, while the Dodgers got an eventual Cy Young runner up out of the deal (in 1977), after several years and one very successful surgery.
2. 2004. Arod for Soriano. Alfonso Soriano wasn’t Arod, that’s for sure, but in three full seasons he had been an All Star twice, and finished third in both the ROY (‘01) and MVP (’02) voting. Plus he’d hit a huge World Series HR. This was truly a monster deal. And it’s kind of hard to imagine that two players with higher career earnings will ever be dealt for each other straight up.
1. My personal all time favorite deal, and I believe the closest thing we have in baseball history to two HOFers being dealt for each other straight up.
1926. Rogers Hornsby for Frankie Frisch (and Jimmy Ring). Hornsby had already established himself as one of the games biggest bats AND biggest pains in the ass. He had finished 2nd in the MVP voting in 1924, and won it in 1925, hitting over .400 (and OPSing over 1.200) both years. He had led the NL in BA, OBP, and SLG every year from 1920 to 1925, before slipping to a puny 124 OPS+ in 1926.
Frankie Frisch, while not that accomplished, had been a mainstay at 2B for the NY Giants team that won four consecutive pennants from 1920-24, averaging about a 120 OPS+ at that point in his career. He led the league in hits and TB in 1923, and the following year (when he led the league in Runs scored) he finished 3rd in MVP voting, and followed that up with a 9th place MVP finish in 1925.
In 1927, their first years with their respective new teams, both Hornsby (3rd) and Frisch (2nd) would finish in the top 3 of MVP voting, combining for a collective 19.4 rWAR. Sadly, Hornsby would find himself no more popular in NY then he had been in St. Louis, and would be moved on again the next year (the Giants got far the worse end of these two deals, ending up with Shanty Hogan and Jimmy Welsh when they dealt Hornsby to the Braves), before landing with the Cubs in 1929, where he would again win the MVP in 1930.
The following year, Frankie Frisch would finally get top prize as league MVP. As was true in NY, Frisch spent years as a major part of 4 NL pennant winners while with St. Louis (the Gashouse Gang). For his career he started for 8 pennant winners, and 4 World Series champs in a 15 year period.
One other deal that I came across that deserves mention, though it’s not at all a 1 for 1 big name kind of deal. Still, it caught my eye and stands out as one of the great heists of my lifetime. In December of 1980, the Milwaukee Brewers traded David Green, Dave LaPoint, Sixto Lexcano, and Lary Sorenson to the St. Louis Cardinals for Rollie Fingers, Pete Vukovich, and Ted Simmons. Fingers and Vukovich would both win CYA for the Brewers, while Simmons (another shouldn’t he be in the Hall candidate) was a huge presence in the Brewers lineup. Of course, the Cards got the last laugh two years later when they beat the Brewers in the World Series, and then later on would re-gift half the trash Milwaukee had sent them, in a deal with San Francisco that netted them Jack Clark.
MY DAD WAS WRONG!
MY BOY NEEDS TO THROW HARDER!
by Roger on Oct 11, 2011 2:18 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Apparently all this Votto stuff was started because Buster Olney decided to make some stuff up. He also said that Cashman contract talks were going smoothly and Cashman was just quoted as saying he hasn’t had any contact at all. Olney is a huge jackass, certainly not helped by his Dodger fan background.
The Cincy GM, who can’t even unload a backup catcher when his team is out of it ain’t about to trade the mvp. Fo’ sho’.
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