An argument for Andres Torres
by Grant Brisbee on Oct 6, 2011 3:08 PM PDT
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PrintThere will be plenty of time this offseason to rosterbate ourselves rotten. Don't run out of steam! After the playoffs are over, we'll just sit down in a circle, and exchange ideas on shortstops. It'll be wholesome, worthwhile fun.
Until then, there's still time to reflect on the past season. What went right, what went wrong. The normal stuff.
...
...
Unless there's a way to combine those two! Reflection and rosterbation -- a little R 'n' R for what's ailing you!
During the post-mortem press conference last week, Brian Sabean had this to say about Andres Torres:
There’s no center field alternative from within that we’re comfortable with
That means the Giants are, again, in the market for a center fielder. This has been a common theme in the Sabean regime.
Marvin Benard - 1999-2001
Tsuyoshi Shinjo - 2002
Marquis Grissom - 2003-2005
Steve Finley - 2006
Dave Roberts - 2007
Aaron Rowand - 2008-2009
Andres Torres - 2010-2011
Sabean fiddles with his starting center fielders like that jerk in your fantasy league who makes 385 pick-ups every week. Here's a substantial contract, Marvin. Whoops. Can't play center field, can you? Alrightie, here's a trade for Shinjo. Whoops. That guy can't hit a lick. Grissom sure can! Whoops, turns out he can't field. Here's a huge contract Dave Roberts! Saaaaay, you're more of a left-fielder, you little scamp. Here's an unbelievably large contract to Aaron Rowa ... well, dang it.
Without question, the best of the bunch was Andres Torres. He was also the cheapest, even compared to the guys from the turn of the century. He was ridiculously cheap, arbitration-eligible, and extraordinarily effective. It was probably folly to expect him to be just as good in 2011, but he was still supposed to be valuable.
Good news! He was the second-most valuable player on the team according to fWAR! The bad news was that the list wasn't good news:
Pablo Sandoval - 5.5
Andres Torres - 2.1
Buster Posey - 1.6
Shards from Buster Posey's femur - 1.5
A dog-eared 1983 Fleer card commemorating Joel Youngblood - 1.2
Renel - 0.3
Torres finishing that high on the list was like a bad hitter being ranked highly within a collection of bad hitters. Which is sort of what happened. Most of Torres's value came from his defense -- when it came to wOBA, he was just as bad as Aubrey Huff, and just a little better than Aaron Rowand. So it's not a crime that Torres is being passed over in the offseason roster-building frenzy.
But it's sad. And a little short-sighted. He can still play a fantastic center field. He might be miscast as a patient leadoff hitter, but he's not that far removed from handling the job capably. The worst part, though, is that the free-agent market this year is devoid of center fielders.
Rick Ankiel
Coco Crisp
Nate McLouth
Corey Patterson
Cody Ross
There you go. There you have it. Coco Crisp is the only player of note in the whole market. Everyone who wants a center fielder, come gather around Coco Crisp!
Well, the vrooom is there. The on-base percentage isn't. And Crisp is a valuable player, sure. But mostly for his defense. Which is a permutation the Giants already have for cheap with Torres.
In a perfect world, where the Giants are making and spending money hand over fist, the Giants could afford the luxury of a more-reliable Torres, which is what Crisp appears to be. Or, in a perfect world, where the Giants are spitting out prospects at all levels of the organization, a trade for B.J. Upton would make sense.
In the world of the rainy-day fund, though, it looks like the Giants are committed to throwing whatever limited resources they have at a position that can be filled cheaply and effectively. Shortstop is a problem. There's no guarantee that Freddy Sanchez will ever be able to turn a double play again. The Giants will have a corner outfield slot open, and a need for power.
Yet they're talking about making center field a priority. As in, "alright, CF is taken care of. Now on to another position, where ... golly. Out of money. Grr. Should have checked more carefully, but, say, is that Julio Lugo willing to play for $1 million?"
And I understand that there are some off-field concerns about Torres, that his ADHD medication might be losing its effectiveness. That's real-life stuff, and it could be a totally valid reason to avoid a $2M or $3M commitment. I'll have to plead ignorance. But if there's a risk to take in the offseason, ignoring shortstop isn't it. Hoping Huff will do the odd-even thing isn't it. Hoping Torres rebounds? That'd be the cheapest risk of all, and what's the downside? That he plays like he did this year, when he was actually one of the better Giants on the team?
Again, low standards. But if there's a risk to take, where the payoff would be to fill multiple holes on a limited dime, it'd probably start with hoping that Torres will be acceptable in center.
Also, come on, how can you not love the guy?
That was after he was buried on the bench, below piles of Brandon Belt, even. Maybe that colors my judgment a bit.
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I really really want Andres to succeed
please please stop being pull-happy!
The Golden Bear is ever watching
2011 Giants Adoptee: Orlando Cabrera (because everyone needs to be loved)
San Francisco Giants Won the 2010 World Series: Not a Typo
ITT:
NO JUSTIN CHRISTIAN.
And PLZ!!!! no “Coco is a viable option.”
COMIN' ATCHA, FROM ANCHORAGE, ALASKA!
Fathaigh go mbuaimid!
Proud adoptive Father of Joe Panik. 2011 NWL MVP .
Job 1:14-15
Yeah, both of them.
Joe Nobody: The slugging speedster the Giants need, at an irrationally low price.
"118 elements, and still no stanfurdium"- carp, paraphrased
"That one's on me."- Madison Bumgarner
by natteringnabob on Oct 6, 2011 4:13 PM PDT up reply actions
I don’t appreciate the little jape at the Joel Youngblood card. It’s a good card.
2010 World Series Champions!
Adopted 'nephew' to the ever avuncular and always awesome Jon Miller
Is there monkey bread in this thread?
Adopted father of Chris Lincecum, without whom (quite literally) Timmy would not exist.
I've never had monkey bread
The Golden Bear is ever watching
2011 Giants Adoptee: Orlando Cabrera (because everyone needs to be loved)
San Francisco Giants Won the 2010 World Series: Not a Typo
Monkey brains, though popular in Cantonese cuisine, are not often to be found in Washington, D.C.
by WhatsAMataHari on Oct 6, 2011 3:17 PM PDT up reply actions
FTFY
Monkeybrains, though popularin Cantonese cuisine,are not often to be found in Washington, D.C.
Adopted Giant: Eddie I Have It Grant.
TSFGWTWS DESPITE Botchy, not BECAUSE of him.
It seems pretty obvious that a Torres/Ross CF platoon would work
But Bochy couldn’t even be trusted to do that this season sooooo…
Rick Ankiel it is!
Quote from my adopted son Mike Krukow: "We're the Giants. We're San Francisco. And we're World Series Champions!"
I rather they sign Beltran and have Nate move to CF.
The Golden Bear is ever watching
2011 Giants Adoptee: Orlando Cabrera (because everyone needs to be loved)
San Francisco Giants Won the 2010 World Series: Not a Typo
FOR THE 150 MILLIONTH TIME
Nate has not had one single AB in the minors or majors in CF. They have given no indication that they are even considering this.
And I’m operating under the assumption that Ross has to come back with his tail between his legs and take a Huff-like one year deal to try and re-establish some value.
But for heavens sake stop with this Nate playing CF nonsense
Quote from my adopted son Mike Krukow: "We're the Giants. We're San Francisco. And we're World Series Champions!"
Unfortunately DFA is right
Its not that Nate can’t play center. It’s that the Giants won’t consider it. So its not an option.
He played the position for the USA Olmypic team.
He clearly has the ability to play it somewhere from well to outsuandingly at the major-league level, with probably only minimal preliminary practice.
Professional baseball analyst since 1980.
Wir sind gewohnt, daß die Menschen verhöhnen was sie nicht verstehn.—Goethe
Agreed Owlcroft
Cannot for the life of me understand why the Giants don’t consider this.
Nate in CF as an experimernt because . . .
the facts show that, even with this year’s improvement, he does not have the bat for a corner OF position. However, if he could play CF his offense might be enough. Of course that requires Giants management to find two solid corner OF bats (one of whom is certainly Beltran) and in left a Cody + ? platoon.
Don't believe everything you think.
I am in agreeance with this sentiment. Unless they sign Beltran, of course (which they won’t)
by Dingoes Ate My Baby on Oct 6, 2011 3:14 PM PDT reply actions
This is one of the only things I'm pretty sure will happen this offseason.
Coco Crisp is going to get 2/16 from Sabean. Bochy is going to bat him leadoff every day. Andres Torres is going to get non-tendered and not resigned. Our starting outfield will be Belt-Crisp-Schierholtz with Justin Christian on the bench.
that’s of course, assuming our opening day first baseman isn’t Brett Pill, in which case it will be Huff-Crisp-Schierholtz and Belt will start the year in Fresno.
Adopted Giant: Mike Fontenot
He's like Grant, but fun size.
Occasionally, I tweet.
I said…NO CHRISTIAN!!!!!
COMIN' ATCHA, FROM ANCHORAGE, ALASKA!
Fathaigh go mbuaimid!
Proud adoptive Father of Joe Panik. 2011 NWL MVP .
Job 1:14-15
Bigot. What would you say if the Giants went after Bob Buddha or Morty Mormon?
by Dingoes Ate My Baby on Oct 6, 2011 3:28 PM PDT up reply actions
Ross Rosicrucian
Joe Nobody: The slugging speedster the Giants need, at an irrationally low price.
"118 elements, and still no stanfurdium"- carp, paraphrased
"That one's on me."- Madison Bumgarner
by natteringnabob on Oct 6, 2011 4:15 PM PDT up reply actions
Andy Atheist
2010 World Series Champions!
Adopted 'nephew' to the ever avuncular and always awesome Jon Miller
by Johnny Disaster on Oct 6, 2011 4:16 PM PDT up reply actions
And with this outfield . . .
you can be assured og a third or fourth place finish. Just sayin’
Don't believe everything you think.
Crispy...looks like he's a bottom.
COMIN' ATCHA, FROM ANCHORAGE, ALASKA!
Fathaigh go mbuaimid!
Proud adoptive Father of Joe Panik. 2011 NWL MVP .
Job 1:14-15
Holy crap
That looks like a gang member just wandered into rival gang territory.
Never mind, baseball gods. I don't love you any more. You've gone back to hating the Giants
Welcome to my new adopted Giant, Carlos Beltran. Well, actually, you're more like a foreign exchange student staying at my house for the summer. Regardless, win us a world series! ...ormaybe a game or two.
LOL BAHSTAN
Joe Nobody: The slugging speedster the Giants need, at an irrationally low price.
"118 elements, and still no stanfurdium"- carp, paraphrased
"That one's on me."- Madison Bumgarner
by natteringnabob on Oct 6, 2011 4:15 PM PDT up reply actions
When gangs wander into enemy territory, that is when they start dancing.
Dearest, Susan - The Patron Saint of Patience
by Lars The Wanderer on Oct 6, 2011 4:16 PM PDT up reply actions
When you're a Ray you're a Ray for all time
from your first fine spring day to your last pine tar grime.
(Hmm. Not so good, but I’ll post it anyway)
Never mind, baseball gods. I don't love you any more. You've gone back to hating the Giants
Welcome to my new adopted Giant, Carlos Beltran. Well, actually, you're more like a foreign exchange student staying at my house for the summer. Regardless, win us a world series! ...ormaybe a game or two.
Rick Ankiel's face looks like it is made of plastic
Never mind, baseball gods. I don't love you any more. You've gone back to hating the Giants
Welcome to my new adopted Giant, Carlos Beltran. Well, actually, you're more like a foreign exchange student staying at my house for the summer. Regardless, win us a world series! ...ormaybe a game or two.
Man, the Braves guessed wrong on McLouth
Never mind, baseball gods. I don't love you any more. You've gone back to hating the Giants
Welcome to my new adopted Giant, Carlos Beltran. Well, actually, you're more like a foreign exchange student staying at my house for the summer. Regardless, win us a world series! ...ormaybe a game or two.
LOl THIS 95 loss offense.
Ryan Doumit
Adam LaRoche
Freddy Sanchez
Jack Wilson
Jose Bautista
Jason Bay
Nate McLouth
Xavier Nady
Nyjer Morgan
But to be fair, they scored about 160 more runs than the 2011 Giants.
COMIN' ATCHA, FROM ANCHORAGE, ALASKA!
Fathaigh go mbuaimid!
Proud adoptive Father of Joe Panik. 2011 NWL MVP .
Job 1:14-15
lol
Jose Bautista when he wasn’t good. Jason Bay when he was good.
Never mind, baseball gods. I don't love you any more. You've gone back to hating the Giants
Welcome to my new adopted Giant, Carlos Beltran. Well, actually, you're more like a foreign exchange student staying at my house for the summer. Regardless, win us a world series! ...ormaybe a game or two.
why does less Torres mean more Crisp?
Grady Sizemore is intriguing
proud son of greatgiantfan; b. Apr 29, 2009, d. Jul 30, 2010.
Because Crisp is the classic Sabean signing.
Adopted Giant: Mike Fontenot
He's like Grant, but fun size.
Occasionally, I tweet.
THIS
I’m thinking an overpay in the 1 year 7.5 mil range.
Also Sizemore’s option has not been officially declined yet so not a for sure FA
Quote from my adopted son Mike Krukow: "We're the Giants. We're San Francisco. And we're World Series Champions!"
Right, stop thinking about what makes actual sense and think like a Sabe-bean.
Adopted Giant: Eddie I Have It Grant.
TSFGWTWS DESPITE Botchy, not BECAUSE of him.
Oh god please no Coco
If your gonna blow it on a FA signing at least make it Denorfia, i’ll take him over Crisp
Pitching and defense wins championships, but oh those dingerz....
if all things being equal, Torres or Crisp?
proud son of greatgiantfan; b. Apr 29, 2009, d. Jul 30, 2010.
Torres. Cheaper.
Unless you mean all things being equal moneywise too.
Wait…Still Torres.
Adopted Giant: Mike Fontenot
He's like Grant, but fun size.
Occasionally, I tweet.
yeah, the money and other costs. Crisp has a much better track record offensively, but he can’t throw worth a damn. Not sure about him as a fielder, otherwise.
proud son of greatgiantfan; b. Apr 29, 2009, d. Jul 30, 2010.
Total Zone has him at +5 runs over the past three years.
Defensive Runs Saved and +/- both have him as +15 over the same span.
UZR has him at +6.6.
Torres, by comparison is +13, +5, +7, and +19.4 over his three years with the Giants.
Make of that what you will.
Adopted Giant: Mike Fontenot
He's like Grant, but fun size.
Occasionally, I tweet.
This
It is a pointless lateral move, the Dave Roberts signing all over again.
amen
and see signature.
Joe Nobody: The slugging speedster the Giants need, at an irrationally low price.
"118 elements, and still no stanfurdium"- carp, paraphrased
"That one's on me."- Madison Bumgarner
by natteringnabob on Oct 6, 2011 4:15 PM PDT up reply actions
Dave Roberts signing was a joke from the beginning
you only had to look at the stats. But gee he was so swell (that one year) in San Diego and Bochy just loved him.
Don't believe everything you think.
Burying Torres is so unbelievably stupid
It’s up there for stupidest move of the season/offseason.
Juan "Doesn't Cheat The Game" Perez, future CF for the World Champion San Francisco Giants.
"And besides, if I wanted to participate in a mindless patriotic ritual where my voice isn’t really heard, I would vote." - Chris Marcil
I can’t help but think that Torres’ value here is 50% emotional
proud son of greatgiantfan; b. Apr 29, 2009, d. Jul 30, 2010.
Well I look at it like what's the difference between Torres and Huff
Both could theoretically be under contract next year.
Both were huge contributors to the World Series.
Is it really all about Huff’s salary? If so, that’s unbelievably stupid.
Quote from my adopted son Mike Krukow: "We're the Giants. We're San Francisco. And we're World Series Champions!"
The difference is that Huff plays at a premium offensive position.
2010 World Series Champions!
Adopted 'nephew' to the ever avuncular and always awesome Jon Miller
by Johnny Disaster on Oct 6, 2011 3:31 PM PDT up reply actions
I just meant why did Huff have the endless leash and Torres didn't
Quote from my adopted son Mike Krukow: "We're the Giants. We're San Francisco. And we're World Series Champions!"
Yeah, that and the track record. For a risk averse organization, playing the guy with the larger contract and longer track record is a no brainer while with Torres there’s a risk of looking rash.
2010 World Series Champions!
Adopted 'nephew' to the ever avuncular and always awesome Jon Miller
by Johnny Disaster on Oct 6, 2011 3:42 PM PDT up reply actions
Easy
Huff – Over 6000 career ABs at the MLB level (veteran)
Torres – A little over 1000 career ABs at the MLB level (practically a rookie)
Belted!
by AndYourBirdCanSing on Oct 6, 2011 3:45 PM PDT up reply actions
Because Huff's overall (& fairly extensive) offensive track record is pretty good and
Torres had one wonderful year.
Don't believe everything you think.
Two. Well . . .
. . . one and a fraction; but it’s the only fraction they gave him. Plus his minor-league stats had perked up wonderfully after he started on the meds.
But it’s truly a marvellous display that Huff, the guy his GM now accuses of having been out of shape, got virtually zero days off till September. Geez, maybe if he had gotten a little rest, one of those several mini-streaks he got started might have lasted a little longer.
Professional baseball analyst since 1980.
Wir sind gewohnt, daß die Menschen verhöhnen was sie nicht verstehn.—Goethe
Yes, GP loves him out of pure saccharine sentimentality.
2010 World Series Champions!
Adopted 'nephew' to the ever avuncular and always awesome Jon Miller
by Johnny Disaster on Oct 6, 2011 3:29 PM PDT up reply actions
I'm a big softy.
Gigante. Campeón. Pumpkin. Andrés Torres.
Dursh nerf darsh narf. Poop.
He's really good! He's an injury risk! But he's really good! But he'll be expensive! But he's really good! But he's an injury risk!
You'd be thinking wrong
Juan "Doesn't Cheat The Game" Perez, future CF for the World Champion San Francisco Giants.
"And besides, if I wanted to participate in a mindless patriotic ritual where my voice isn’t really heard, I would vote." - Chris Marcil
I don't think many are arguing Torres is as good as he played in 2010.
But I think most of us agree he’s not as bad offensively as he was in 2011. And he’s cheaper than any other alternative, and in most cases, just as good because of his ++ D in CF. It would be ridiculous to non-tender a 2 WAR player in limited playing time last year
Adopted Giant: Mike Fontenot
He's like Grant, but fun size.
Occasionally, I tweet.
I would keep him too, but going in to 2012 with him as the starting CF is a sad prospect for the season, I’m afraid.
proud son of greatgiantfan; b. Apr 29, 2009, d. Jul 30, 2010.
The hole at SS is probably much bigger.
Adopted father of Chris Lincecum, without whom (quite literally) Timmy would not exist.
this
also, if he bats 8th, who the hell cares? Let him catch everything in CF (and in LF hopefully after they sign some galooty slugger) and get bunted over by the pitcher when he gets on base.
And improve things that can be improved, and must be improved.
Joe Nobody: The slugging speedster the Giants need, at an irrationally low price.
"118 elements, and still no stanfurdium"- carp, paraphrased
"That one's on me."- Madison Bumgarner
by natteringnabob on Oct 6, 2011 4:17 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Not a bad point.
Torres can be a purely defensive outfielder with some speed that gives them a little pop in the 8 hole.
The question is how much. And if you do that, you have to have at least one corner outfielder that is a plus hitter. Good luck on that one.
if
they can’t find a corner OF (or 1B, whatevs) that is a plus hitter, then all the rest of this deck chair arranging is precisely that.
Joe Nobody: The slugging speedster the Giants need, at an irrationally low price.
"118 elements, and still no stanfurdium"- carp, paraphrased
"That one's on me."- Madison Bumgarner
by natteringnabob on Oct 7, 2011 6:24 AM PDT up reply actions
To say nothing about the fact that
the 8th place hitter will probably be Brandon Crawford.
Don't believe everything you think.
He’s an above average player.
Juan "Doesn't Cheat The Game" Perez, future CF for the World Champion San Francisco Giants.
"And besides, if I wanted to participate in a mindless patriotic ritual where my voice isn’t really heard, I would vote." - Chris Marcil
I think it’s great or near great that we should be after
proud son of greatgiantfan; b. Apr 29, 2009, d. Jul 30, 2010.
And who is this mythical player we should be targeting then?
Juan "Doesn't Cheat The Game" Perez, future CF for the World Champion San Francisco Giants.
"And besides, if I wanted to participate in a mindless patriotic ritual where my voice isn’t really heard, I would vote." - Chris Marcil
A justin morneau type hitter perhaps
Obviously any links in the above post are probably NSFW
The baseball gods do not always punish the wicked but they will not just allow people to spit in their faces -- Joe Posnanski
Kudos, You are a sick, sick man, but you are very good at it -- wcw
by jctGamer on Oct 6, 2011 3:38 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
LOL
Juan "Doesn't Cheat The Game" Perez, future CF for the World Champion San Francisco Giants.
"And besides, if I wanted to participate in a mindless patriotic ritual where my voice isn’t really heard, I would vote." - Chris Marcil
JOE NOBODY
a nation turns its lonely eyes, and fictionally flush bank account, to you!
Joe Nobody: The slugging speedster the Giants need, at an irrationally low price.
"118 elements, and still no stanfurdium"- carp, paraphrased
"That one's on me."- Madison Bumgarner
by natteringnabob on Oct 6, 2011 4:17 PM PDT up reply actions
Even having a "awful" year
Torres was the 23rd most valuable CF in baseball based on fWAR.
Even modest improvement makes him a very valuable CF
Quote from my adopted son Mike Krukow: "We're the Giants. We're San Francisco. And we're World Series Champions!"
That was also in only 400 PA's
So, give him a full season and he’s already very valuable.
Juan "Doesn't Cheat The Game" Perez, future CF for the World Champion San Francisco Giants.
"And besides, if I wanted to participate in a mindless patriotic ritual where my voice isn’t really heard, I would vote." - Chris Marcil
What are you talking about?
He was above average. More of that is good.
Juan "Doesn't Cheat The Game" Perez, future CF for the World Champion San Francisco Giants.
"And besides, if I wanted to participate in a mindless patriotic ritual where my voice isn’t really heard, I would vote." - Chris Marcil
23rd most valuable CF
that’s pretty lousy
proud son of greatgiantfan; b. Apr 29, 2009, d. Jul 30, 2010.
In 400 PA's, so he had less than 2/3 of a season to put up those numbers
Juan "Doesn't Cheat The Game" Perez, future CF for the World Champion San Francisco Giants.
"And besides, if I wanted to participate in a mindless patriotic ritual where my voice isn’t really heard, I would vote." - Chris Marcil
let’s see. my car gets 20mpg, but if I could drive it more…
proud son of greatgiantfan; b. Apr 29, 2009, d. Jul 30, 2010.
If I’m not mistaken, WAR is a cumulative state. Rather than a rate stat. Thus, if he had a full 600 PA at the same “crappy” rate he would have posted roughly 3 WAR. Which would have put him around 13th in baseball. Not bad for cheap. A modest improvement would see him jump over players like BJ Upton.
by BestHyperboleEver on Oct 6, 2011 3:45 PM PDT up reply actions
You are indeed correct
But then how would we have gotten Rowand into the lineup?
Gigante. Campeón. Pumpkin. Andrés Torres.
Dursh nerf darsh narf. Poop.
He's really good! He's an injury risk! But he's really good! But he'll be expensive! But he's really good! But he's an injury risk!
Don't forget those ABs Justin Christian got.
Adopted Giant: Mike Fontenot
He's like Grant, but fun size.
Occasionally, I tweet.
Stop it, you.
COMIN' ATCHA, FROM ANCHORAGE, ALASKA!
Fathaigh go mbuaimid!
Proud adoptive Father of Joe Panik. 2011 NWL MVP .
Job 1:14-15
Yep
And for reference in 2011..
Coco Crisp’s fWAR was 2.2
Andres Torres fWAR was 2.1
Coco Crisp had about 200 more PA too
Quote from my adopted son Mike Krukow: "We're the Giants. We're San Francisco. And we're World Series Champions!"
Who then?
Who do you want? What are the options?
Juan "Doesn't Cheat The Game" Perez, future CF for the World Champion San Francisco Giants.
"And besides, if I wanted to participate in a mindless patriotic ritual where my voice isn’t really heard, I would vote." - Chris Marcil
He had no answer so he just gave up
Quote from my adopted son Mike Krukow: "We're the Giants. We're San Francisco. And we're World Series Champions!"
Pretty much
Juan "Doesn't Cheat The Game" Perez, future CF for the World Champion San Francisco Giants.
"And besides, if I wanted to participate in a mindless patriotic ritual where my voice isn’t really heard, I would vote." - Chris Marcil
These are the FA CF options..
Rick Ankiel (32)
Willie Bloomquist (34) – $1.1MM mutual option with a $150K buyout
Mike Cameron (39)
Coco Crisp (32)
David DeJesus (32)
Scott Hairston (32)
Nate McLouth (30) – $10.65MM club option with a $1.25MM buyout
Corey Patterson (32)
Cody Ross (31)
Grady Sizemore (29) – $8.5MM club option with a $500K buyout
Dewayne Wise (34)
No one is saying Torres is elite. What everyone here is saying is that he is cheaper and better than any of those options except maybe Sizemore who is a gigantic risk
Quote from my adopted son Mike Krukow: "We're the Giants. We're San Francisco. And we're World Series Champions!"
The Braves would probably buyout McClouth.
Would Sabean take the chance?
I like DeJesus the most from this list…and Sabean was gonna get heem.
COMIN' ATCHA, FROM ANCHORAGE, ALASKA!
Fathaigh go mbuaimid!
Proud adoptive Father of Joe Panik. 2011 NWL MVP .
Job 1:14-15
I just realized this too and nearly vomited this is also a Sabey Sabes signing
Quote from my adopted son Mike Krukow: "We're the Giants. We're San Francisco. And we're World Series Champions!"
DeJesus is a possible buy low candidate (so that could work)
But I like the guy we already have.
Never mind, baseball gods. I don't love you any more. You've gone back to hating the Giants
Welcome to my new adopted Giant, Carlos Beltran. Well, actually, you're more like a foreign exchange student staying at my house for the summer. Regardless, win us a world series! ...ormaybe a game or two.
Me too.
I was just sayin…If he HAS to sign somebody, I’d like DDJ.
COMIN' ATCHA, FROM ANCHORAGE, ALASKA!
Fathaigh go mbuaimid!
Proud adoptive Father of Joe Panik. 2011 NWL MVP .
Job 1:14-15
don't bother
he won’t pick one.
Joe Nobody: The slugging speedster the Giants need, at an irrationally low price.
"118 elements, and still no stanfurdium"- carp, paraphrased
"That one's on me."- Madison Bumgarner
by natteringnabob on Oct 6, 2011 4:18 PM PDT up reply actions
I just don't buy WAR
particulalry when its based on defense. Problem is that Torres was counted on to be an offensive catalyst and he was not. Simple as that.
Honestly, if we could get some sort of upgrade at SS
I would be ok with something like
C Posey
1B Huff
2B Sanchez
3B Panda
SS Rollins? Scutaro? Reyes (lol rainy day fund)
LF Belt
CF Torres
RF Beltran? Cuddyer? Willingham? Schierholtz?
Adopted Giant: Mike Fontenot
He's like Grant, but fun size.
Occasionally, I tweet.
I think Belt should be at first. Huff can make jokes in the dugout.
Matt Cain, Tim Lincecum, and Madison Bumgarner,
L2WIN.
FFFFFFFfff...
he IS the joke
Obviously any links in the above post are probably NSFW
The baseball gods do not always punish the wicked but they will not just allow people to spit in their faces -- Joe Posnanski
Kudos, You are a sick, sick man, but you are very good at it -- wcw
I'll bet you right now he rebounds in 2012
He was embarrassed and rightfully so by the comments about bieng out of shape. Plus he’ll be in a contract year. So, my guess is much closer to ‘10 then’11.
I think he's dealing with reality not hope
Quote from my adopted son Mike Krukow: "We're the Giants. We're San Francisco. And we're World Series Champions!"
Only if you also expect him to lead off.
2010 World Series Champions!
Adopted 'nephew' to the ever avuncular and always awesome Jon Miller
by Johnny Disaster on Oct 6, 2011 3:41 PM PDT up reply actions
Why is it sad to be going into a season with an average-to-above-average player at a position?
Gigante. Campeón. Pumpkin. Andrés Torres.
Dursh nerf darsh narf. Poop.
He's really good! He's an injury risk! But he's really good! But he'll be expensive! But he's really good! But he's an injury risk!
LOL Crispian
Joe Nobody: The slugging speedster the Giants need, at an irrationally low price.
"118 elements, and still no stanfurdium"- carp, paraphrased
"That one's on me."- Madison Bumgarner
by natteringnabob on Oct 6, 2011 4:16 PM PDT up reply actions
And Coco Crispian shall ne’er go by,
From this day to the ending of the world,
But we in it shall be remembered-
We few, we happy few, we band of brothers;
For he to-day that steals this base with me
Shall be my brother; be he ne’er so vile,
This day shall gentle his condition;
And gentlemen in Oakland now-a-bed
Shall think themselves accurs’d they were not here,
And hold their mitts cheap whiles any speaks
That played with us upon Saint Crispian’s day.
2010 World Series Champions!
Adopted 'nephew' to the ever avuncular and always awesome Jon Miller
by Johnny Disaster on Oct 6, 2011 4:19 PM PDT up reply actions 5 recs
/applause sign is lit
Adopted father of Chris Lincecum, without whom (quite literally) Timmy would not exist.
you're my hero you are
Joe Nobody: The slugging speedster the Giants need, at an irrationally low price.
"118 elements, and still no stanfurdium"- carp, paraphrased
"That one's on me."- Madison Bumgarner
by natteringnabob on Oct 6, 2011 4:22 PM PDT up reply actions
Torres ends up on the A’s like the last CF we let walk (blanking on his name).
One way or another, this darkness got to give.
Rajai Davis
Carter Jurica!
"Has anyone really been for even as decided to use even go want to do look more like?"
by GrahamCrakalaka on Oct 6, 2011 3:35 PM PDT up reply actions
Man, this thread is making me madder and madder.
Joe Nobody: The slugging speedster the Giants need, at an irrationally low price.
"118 elements, and still no stanfurdium"- carp, paraphrased
"That one's on me."- Madison Bumgarner
by natteringnabob on Oct 6, 2011 4:18 PM PDT up reply actions
They have to tender Torres a contract. There is no centerfielder on this team, or backup CF even.
The moment that Aaron Rowand was released, Andres Torres job is safe, even if he’s just a backup.
The player that Sabean should target from the A’s is not Coco-Crisp, but Jermaine Dye. I think he can be a contributor next season. Go full scale buy low option.
Sign Furcal, Dye, and make another run at Beltran.
Obviously any links in the above post are probably NSFW
The baseball gods do not always punish the wicked but they will not just allow people to spit in their faces -- Joe Posnanski
Kudos, You are a sick, sick man, but you are very good at it -- wcw
Speaking of Jermaine Dye
What is it with Kansas City Royals whose last name begins with D going to the A’s? Dye, Damon and DeJesus all saw significant drops in production when they went to the A’s.
Never mind, baseball gods. I don't love you any more. You've gone back to hating the Giants
Welcome to my new adopted Giant, Carlos Beltran. Well, actually, you're more like a foreign exchange student staying at my house for the summer. Regardless, win us a world series! ...ormaybe a game or two.
Interesting
Dayton Moore knows something about OFs whose last names start with D that Beane doesn’t!!
go rowand
by lincypoo i wuv u on Oct 6, 2011 5:32 PM PDT up reply actions
2009 called. It wants it's High Value Free Agent back.
COMIN' ATCHA, FROM ANCHORAGE, ALASKA!
Fathaigh go mbuaimid!
Proud adoptive Father of Joe Panik. 2011 NWL MVP .
Job 1:14-15
Wait
Wat
Gigante. Campeón. Pumpkin. Andrés Torres.
Dursh nerf darsh narf. Poop.
He's really good! He's an injury risk! But he's really good! But he'll be expensive! But he's really good! But he's an injury risk!
???
Did Jermaine Dye even play baseball in 2011?
HOLY FUCK I HAVE BEEN DOING THAT THIS WHOLE YEAR
Whenever I say Jermaine Dye, Please substitute David DeJesus.
Obviously any links in the above post are probably NSFW
The baseball gods do not always punish the wicked but they will not just allow people to spit in their faces -- Joe Posnanski
Kudos, You are a sick, sick man, but you are very good at it -- wcw
hahaha
That’s ok, I keep confusing Sizemore and Jacoby Ellsbury. I get so excited when people suggest getting Sizemore!
Joe Nobody: The slugging speedster the Giants need, at an irrationally low price.
"118 elements, and still no stanfurdium"- carp, paraphrased
"That one's on me."- Madison Bumgarner
by natteringnabob on Oct 6, 2011 5:20 PM PDT up reply actions
i'm really curious as to who you're actually talking about
Josh Willingham?
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
I call him gerald. he’s a pristine white handkerchief, though? nediB eoJ Joe Biden ‽ Joe Biden.
I believe
that Andres Torres is a valuable baseball player for the Giants.
that Brandon Belt should be playing on the Giants next year.
that the Giants need a competent shortstop.
that the Giants need both a new shortstop and a good hitter to be brought in.
that the Giants could be good if Huff does his every other year thing, Belt plays, Posey comes back as he was, but that none of these things should be counted on.
that the Giants will not do all that they should this off-season and that they will do at least one thing they shouldn’t
Never mind, baseball gods. I don't love you any more. You've gone back to hating the Giants
Welcome to my new adopted Giant, Carlos Beltran. Well, actually, you're more like a foreign exchange student staying at my house for the summer. Regardless, win us a world series! ...ormaybe a game or two.
Sometimes I feel like you're in my brain, Grant.
I recall having this argument many a time down here in the comments section. Torres is good, you dummys. Play him until Brown is ready.
Gigante. Campeón. Pumpkin. Andrés Torres.
Dursh nerf darsh narf. Poop.
He's really good! He's an injury risk! But he's really good! But he'll be expensive! But he's really good! But he's an injury risk!
I still long for the days
When Andres Torres pulled out his sword, pointed to the sky, and said…
“BY THE POWER OF GREYSKULL…. I… AM… CARLOS BELTRAN”
and turned into Carlos Beltran. Then he pointed it at Aubrey Huff.
Obviously any links in the above post are probably NSFW
The baseball gods do not always punish the wicked but they will not just allow people to spit in their faces -- Joe Posnanski
Kudos, You are a sick, sick man, but you are very good at it -- wcw
HAWT
Then he pointed it at Aubrey Huff.
Ross on Halladay: "I’d tried everything against him…going the other way, taking pitches, trying to walk…and nothing worked. I’d never tried going up there and just trying to hit a home run off him."
My boy has mad hops
I rant on Twitter
Torres was not good last year
Period. His job was to be the offensive catalyst at the top of the order. He failed. Now that doesn’t mean he can’t come back and be productive in some capacity in ’12. But ’11 was a bad year for Andres. And the WAR is irrelevant on that pointl
Nonsense on stilts
He was an average player. That he wasn’t good enough to be the leadoff guy is neither here nor there. That’s the manager’s fault.
Yes it is HERE OR THERE
That is what he was to do for the Giants. That was to be his key contribution. You can’t disregard one’s role on a tema in anaylzying whether he had an average or good yearr FOR THAT TEAM. That is different as to how he stacks up against other CF’s league wide.
It is why I don’t buy WAR for a a legitimate stat for one’s worth to a team. Take Posey for example. Whatever his WAR value is, it pales in significance to his true value to the Giants. Cause he isn’t just a catcher to compare against others. He’s a clean-up hitter, the key guy in the offense etc.
That makes no sense. Because the Giants insist on using a player in a nonsensical way thatt’s the player’s fault?
2010 World Series Champions!
Adopted 'nephew' to the ever avuncular and always awesome Jon Miller
by Johnny Disaster on Oct 7, 2011 11:47 AM PDT up reply actions
It's not as though there's a position called "leadoff hitter"
I mean, this isn’t like me saying Kordell Stewart is a fine football player, but as a wide receiver, when as is it so happened he was awful for the Steelers as a quarterback.
The Giants need a centerfielder, and Andres Torres is more than likely the best available option. Where he winds up batting in the lineup is irrelevant to that consideration. Moreover, short of having the pitcher bat first, plugging almost anyone into the leadoff spot makes very little difference in terms of expected runs.
Andres is needed as leadoff because no one else on this team can.
If you cannot see that this factors into his value then you are missing context. Without understanding context you cannot build a team.
Don't believe everything you think.
Without understanding that Andres Torres is not a high OBP guy and yet is still a valuable player you cannot make sense.
2010 World Series Champions!
Adopted 'nephew' to the ever avuncular and always awesome Jon Miller
by Johnny Disaster on Oct 7, 2011 3:02 PM PDT up reply actions
So and so . . .
. . . Torres when operating at capacity (2009/2010) had a decent enough OBP to serve as leadoff (c. .343), but as several have noted, clearly that is a makeshift. But as others have rightly noted, lineup order isn’t particularly important: it’s who is in the lineup. And if Torres has any kind of bounceback at all (and I rather think he likely will), he deserves to be the center fielder.
Professional baseball analyst since 1980.
Wir sind gewohnt, daß die Menschen verhöhnen was sie nicht verstehn.—Goethe
sure there is
CF.
Joe Nobody: The slugging speedster the Giants need, at an irrationally low price.
"118 elements, and still no stanfurdium"- carp, paraphrased
"That one's on me."- Madison Bumgarner
by natteringnabob on Oct 8, 2011 6:08 AM PDT up reply actions
Well, I’ll certainly take your word for it over statistics.
Joe Nobody: The slugging speedster the Giants need, at an irrationally low price.
"118 elements, and still no stanfurdium"- carp, paraphrased
"That one's on me."- Madison Bumgarner
by natteringnabob on Oct 7, 2011 6:25 AM PDT up reply actions
I stopped reading at “Period” because I assumed that was the end.
Once more, coming to you by proxy.
by howtheyscored on Oct 7, 2011 10:35 AM PDT up reply actions
He's made a good case
Too much to just be an exercise.
"Your curses do not compare to those of Houston fans or Detroit fans, and especially not to those of fans from the northside of Chicago. You are not Hamlet. You are Valerie Bertinelli. Your victim act is schlocky, and totally unconvincing. You fancy yourself tormented. You are merely insecure."
-- Scott Burton to Red Sox fans, 6/12/02
http://espn.go.com/magazine/burton_20020612.html
Torress would be an awesome 8 spot hitter
It would mean trying to find a corner OF or SS to lead off (Reyes? Carrol?).
Maybe
The Giants could teach Schierholtz how to steal bases and walk more during the off season.
Matt Cain, Tim Lincecum, and Madison Bumgarner,
L2WIN.
FFFFFFFfff...
Haha!
The Giants could teach Schierholtz how to steal bases and walk more during the off season.
Walks! As if the Giants would ever encourage that kind of thing!
I'm thinking but nothing's happening.
Why does the SS have to lead off?
Adopted father of Chris Lincecum, without whom (quite literally) Timmy would not exist.
Because that is the way of the world.
Gigante. Campeón. Pumpkin. Andrés Torres.
Dursh nerf darsh narf. Poop.
He's really good! He's an injury risk! But he's really good! But he'll be expensive! But he's really good! But he's an injury risk!
Because
Obviously any links in the above post are probably NSFW
The baseball gods do not always punish the wicked but they will not just allow people to spit in their faces -- Joe Posnanski
Kudos, You are a sick, sick man, but you are very good at it -- wcw
by jctGamer on Oct 6, 2011 3:49 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
damnit just missing it
because the founders said so?
because we’re jem’hadar?
Proud new co-dad of Travis Ishikawa. And ishikaBOOM Goes the Dynamite.
If you keep OF the way it is
2 real open holes in rooster are at CF and SS, and leadoff hitter is priority. Therefore, if you keep Torress and bat him 8th in CF, SS would be the place to get a leadoff hitter.
Does not have to be, just saying that is how I see it.
Ross
the answer is Cody Ross, with Torres as a bench guy.
Torres is better than Ross, IMO.
Gigante. Campeón. Pumpkin. Andrés Torres.
Dursh nerf darsh narf. Poop.
He's really good! He's an injury risk! But he's really good! But he'll be expensive! But he's really good! But he's an injury risk!
Agreed.
I wouldn’t be surprised if Torres could put up a line similar to Ross’ .261/.323./.456 line in 2012. Maybe a little more OBP and a little less power. But superior defense and cheaper.
Adopted Giant: Mike Fontenot
He's like Grant, but fun size.
Occasionally, I tweet.
You mean the improvement from this years numbers to that line?
The fact that his overall line with the Giants is .252/.332/.436 over 1138 PAs.
Adopted Giant: Mike Fontenot
He's like Grant, but fun size.
Occasionally, I tweet.
So he’s going to have to be better than avg, I don’t see that. I think maybe that avg but more likely slightly less. Admittedly I factor in what seems to be the trouble with medication, thinking that won’t stop next year.
It's a .768 OPS
to a .779 OPS, which isn’t a huge jump.
But that’s true, none of us know where he’s at in regards to his medication still working well and all that. That could be a huge factor in how he performs.
Adopted Giant: Mike Fontenot
He's like Grant, but fun size.
Occasionally, I tweet.
He really needs someone like Beltran to mentor him in the offseason…I really hoped that Torres was going to be better when Beltran started working with him.
The Golden Bear is ever watching
2011 Giants Adoptee: Orlando Cabrera (because everyone needs to be loved)
San Francisco Giants Won the 2010 World Series: Not a Typo
I'm torn on how I feel about Beltran telling Torres to focus more on getting on base rather than trying to hit home runs
If he means show some plate discipline, take some walks, and try and hit the ball hard to all fields, then I agree.
but if he means start being a slap hitter, bunt for base hits, don’t even try to drive the ball, then I don’t like it at all, because that’s what kept Torres as a career minor league journeyman for so long.
Adopted Giant: Mike Fontenot
He's like Grant, but fun size.
Occasionally, I tweet.
HE DID NOT TELL HIM TO GO BACK TO BEING A HRINIAK STYLE HITTER
2010 World Series Champions!
Adopted 'nephew' to the ever avuncular and always awesome Jon Miller
by Johnny Disaster on Oct 6, 2011 4:04 PM PDT up reply actions
I didn't see the Franchise clip. If Beltran was indeed giving him the first piece of advice, then I definitely agree.
Adopted Giant: Mike Fontenot
He's like Grant, but fun size.
Occasionally, I tweet.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I9AUf9h8m4M&t=10m0s
The Golden Bear is ever watching
2011 Giants Adoptee: Orlando Cabrera (because everyone needs to be loved)
San Francisco Giants Won the 2010 World Series: Not a Typo
I did not know all of these were on youtube.
Thanks.
Adopted Giant: Mike Fontenot
He's like Grant, but fun size.
Occasionally, I tweet.
I didn't poke around, but in the sidebar I see several episodes claiming to be full length.
Adopted Giant: Mike Fontenot
He's like Grant, but fun size.
Occasionally, I tweet.
We’ve had this discussion before… Beltran was the one that got Torres out of being a slap hitter. The clip from the Franchise showed that Beltran wanted Torres to open up his swing and to all fields. Beltran’s point is that the homeruns will still be there.
My fallback point on this is that Beltran is not a slaphitter.
The Golden Bear is ever watching
2011 Giants Adoptee: Orlando Cabrera (because everyone needs to be loved)
San Francisco Giants Won the 2010 World Series: Not a Typo
There is a middle ground.
First of all – there have been a lot of successful “slap hitters” at the top of a batting order. But lets leave that aside. The problem is not getting slappy, its not swinging from the heels constantly. Takea strike – particularly when no one is on, shorten up with tow strikes etc etc etc.
That’s the thing though- looked like Pablo benefitted immensely from Beltran’s advice, going oppo a lot more, that may even be the .15 above .300 this year.
Torres on the other hand was unquestionably given the same kind of advice but he just kept looking worse.
I don’t think the problem is Torres’ ability, but I do think something is keeping his focus off the game.
Torres presses himself too much…something didn’t work in 15 PAs, he scratched it and went with something else. Lack of PT did not help.
I think the FO/Bochy will understand this in the offseason…prospective and distance help.
The Golden Bear is ever watching
2011 Giants Adoptee: Orlando Cabrera (because everyone needs to be loved)
San Francisco Giants Won the 2010 World Series: Not a Typo
But the drugs..
Ultimately the drugs are a factor. If he was dependent on a drug -regardless of how it was helping him – then he doesn’t have that drug anymore that’s a problem. He’s got to have the mental clarity to focus.
It’s both…ADHD can be controlled by drugs but the environment plays a big role. You have a good support system and mentors, it helps a lot.
I do not think that it’s a surprise that Torres did very well in 2009/2010 when the pressure was off and then did poorly when there were high expectations.
The Golden Bear is ever watching
2011 Giants Adoptee: Orlando Cabrera (because everyone needs to be loved)
San Francisco Giants Won the 2010 World Series: Not a Typo
Exactly
No pressure was easy, but that’s no more. Now there’s much higher expectations like there was this year. I don’t see Torres cutting through that without complications.
It could be that players’ performance just fluctuates.
2010 World Series Champions!
Adopted 'nephew' to the ever avuncular and always awesome Jon Miller
by Johnny Disaster on Oct 6, 2011 4:15 PM PDT up reply actions
I don’t understand what that is supposed to mean.
2010 World Series Champions!
Adopted 'nephew' to the ever avuncular and always awesome Jon Miller
by Johnny Disaster on Oct 6, 2011 4:22 PM PDT up reply actions
Separate leadoff with CF for a minute
If Giants get a SS that also leads off (should be there no. 1 priority), Torres can be a decent everyday CF that bats 7th in the lineup. Then the rest of the priorities are tying up Cain and LIncecum, a Corner OF, LH reliever sitiutation, and 5th starter…in that order. If all of that is fixed, then come back to upgrading the CF/7th-in-the-lineup situation if Torres isn’t cutting it.
LOL you
CF bats leadoff
middle infielder bats 2nd
DUH
/Bochyed
Quote from my adopted son Mike Krukow: "We're the Giants. We're San Francisco. And we're World Series Champions!"
Reyes, baby, Reyes.
Gigante. Campeón. Pumpkin. Andrés Torres.
Dursh nerf darsh narf. Poop.
He's really good! He's an injury risk! But he's really good! But he'll be expensive! But he's really good! But he's an injury risk!
Rollins
The Golden Bear is ever watching
2011 Giants Adoptee: Orlando Cabrera (because everyone needs to be loved)
San Francisco Giants Won the 2010 World Series: Not a Typo
Rollins
Is not really a great leadoff option. Career .320 OBP, .338 this year.
Yeah
I mean, that’s where they’d slot him. Doesn’t mean it’s optimal, but it’d be better than what we got last year.
Gigante. Campeón. Pumpkin. Andrés Torres.
Dursh nerf darsh narf. Poop.
He's really good! He's an injury risk! But he's really good! But he'll be expensive! But he's really good! But he's an injury risk!
This should be a much bigger priority than trying to sign Beltran. (I’d take both of course). Belt + Reyes is much better than Beltran + Crawford.
Moneywise…wouldn’t Reyes = Rollins + Beltran?
The Golden Bear is ever watching
2011 Giants Adoptee: Orlando Cabrera (because everyone needs to be loved)
San Francisco Giants Won the 2010 World Series: Not a Typo
Roughly, yeah.
Adopted Giant: Mike Fontenot
He's like Grant, but fun size.
Occasionally, I tweet.
Much
rather have Rollins + Beltran
The Golden Bear is ever watching
2011 Giants Adoptee: Orlando Cabrera (because everyone needs to be loved)
San Francisco Giants Won the 2010 World Series: Not a Typo
Rollins
Sanchez
Panda
Beltran
Posey
Belt/Huff
Nate
Torres
P
The Golden Bear is ever watching
2011 Giants Adoptee: Orlando Cabrera (because everyone needs to be loved)
San Francisco Giants Won the 2010 World Series: Not a Typo
This looks really good to me which means it will never happen unfortunately. You don’t have enough Pills, Crawfords, Cocos, and Kepps in that lineup
Problem is that this would mean a $20 million bump in payroll which I find hard to believe that the Giants would make, even if Neukom was still around.
I guess it depends if they think Rowand’s money is still on the payroll.
The Golden Bear is ever watching
2011 Giants Adoptee: Orlando Cabrera (because everyone needs to be loved)
San Francisco Giants Won the 2010 World Series: Not a Typo
Or (in a parallel universe where I get my way).
Rollins
Belt
Beltran
Sandoval
Posey
Nate
Sanchez
Torres
Pitcher
I tend to want to put 2 through 5 in descending order of OBP, but I would also like to give Sandoval some protection.
by BestHyperboleEver on Oct 6, 2011 4:03 PM PDT up reply actions
I would be ok with something like this.
But in reality, we’d get something like…
Rollins
Sanchez
Beltran
Posey
Sandoval
Nate
Huff
Torres
Pitcher
Adopted Giant: Mike Fontenot
He's like Grant, but fun size.
Occasionally, I tweet.
I will never understand
why Bochy values a perceived ability to move the runner over as more valuable than a walk as a requirement for batting 2nd. It’s unreal.
I think if you had a candidate talk with Bochy, he will admit that he overmanaged and made a lot of nonsensical moves because he was pressing about the lineup.
He was never a steal and hit and run guy but this year he did that a lot.
The Golden Bear is ever watching
2011 Giants Adoptee: Orlando Cabrera (because everyone needs to be loved)
San Francisco Giants Won the 2010 World Series: Not a Typo
I feel like Bochy is a bit of a hit and run guy.
granted, I don’t know much about him from his tenure in San Diego, but I remember being frustrated with hit and runs in 2010 too.
That could just be because I kind of hate hit and runs though.
Adopted Giant: Mike Fontenot
He's like Grant, but fun size.
Occasionally, I tweet.
I was listening to Padres broadcasters talk about Bochy and they commented that he was doing a lot of stuff this year that he never did when he was in SD, including hit and run.
The Golden Bear is ever watching
2011 Giants Adoptee: Orlando Cabrera (because everyone needs to be loved)
San Francisco Giants Won the 2010 World Series: Not a Typo
True
I tend to like moving runners when you have a team like the Giants that is both slow and devoid of power. Bochy has always been a guy that perfers to play for the big inning. He had to change this year. He had no choice.
if they're slow
and devoid of power, you are telling them to run into outs with their terrible contact and worse baserunning.
Joe Nobody: The slugging speedster the Giants need, at an irrationally low price.
"118 elements, and still no stanfurdium"- carp, paraphrased
"That one's on me."- Madison Bumgarner
by natteringnabob on Oct 7, 2011 6:26 AM PDT up reply actions
also
love it or hate it, it’s not really much of a play when the batter is a guy who normally swings at the first pitch. Which is mostly everybody.
Joe Nobody: The slugging speedster the Giants need, at an irrationally low price.
"118 elements, and still no stanfurdium"- carp, paraphrased
"That one's on me."- Madison Bumgarner
by natteringnabob on Oct 6, 2011 4:23 PM PDT up reply actions
Actually maybe a normal and normal, since most of the guys sent to run aren’t particularly good at baserunning.
Joe Nobody: The slugging speedster the Giants need, at an irrationally low price.
"118 elements, and still no stanfurdium"- carp, paraphrased
"That one's on me."- Madison Bumgarner
by natteringnabob on Oct 6, 2011 4:48 PM PDT up reply actions
So i'm curious
Is your idea no bunts, no hit and run, no moving runners over – simply always play for the gig inning? That works, if you have a bunch of high OPS studs in your lineup. If you don’t you have to scratch and claw.
The percentages do change somewhat when you are in a low-run environment
But not that much. Bunting with a position player is still almost always a bad idea. Hitting and running still isn’t a good idea. Stealing bases is still a low-value proposition.
the idea
is to have players that can hit the baseball, and let them do so.
Bunting slow guys from first to second with one out and a Rowand at the plate to avoid the inevitable inning-ending DP is one thing. Having the cleanup hitter bunt when down by several runs is stupid.
Joe Nobody: The slugging speedster the Giants need, at an irrationally low price.
"118 elements, and still no stanfurdium"- carp, paraphrased
"That one's on me."- Madison Bumgarner
by natteringnabob on Oct 7, 2011 6:27 AM PDT up reply actions
No one suggests
having a clean up guy bunt – ever. I’m by no means a small ball guy. I’d prefer to go for big innings etc. But when you have a plus plus pitching staff and a team that struggles mightily to score, you have to play for one run here and there. Situational hitting becomes that much more important.
Because it may so often be the difference between losing 1-0 and winning 2-1.
That is like . . .
. . . the gambler who says he will stop just before his luck runs out. No one can know when this or that bad-odds play might, by chance, work out in one’s favor. But small ball never does. The only reason to ever at all bunt, or hit-and-run, or steal is that every once in a while you need to do it so that the opposition cannot assume you never will (and take advantage of that in their positioning).
Professional baseball analyst since 1980.
Wir sind gewohnt, daß die Menschen verhöhnen was sie nicht verstehn.—Goethe
Bochy did
and does.
Playing for one run gets you one run. Last night the Cardinals did just that and got 0 instead when a deep fly ball ended the inning instead of scoring a run.
Joe Nobody: The slugging speedster the Giants need, at an irrationally low price.
"118 elements, and still no stanfurdium"- carp, paraphrased
"That one's on me."- Madison Bumgarner
by natteringnabob on Oct 8, 2011 6:09 AM PDT up reply actions
With these players
Beltran or Posey should probably be leading off.
Well
But the question, I think, is whether you’d rather have
Rollins at SS, Beltran in RF, Belt in LF.
or
Reyes at SS, Schierholtz in RF, Belt in LF.
So is Rollins + Beltran > Reyes + Schierholtz?
With defense, I think it’s closer than you’d think. I’d peg Rollins as a 3ish WAR player, and maybe 4 for Beltran.
I’d peg Reyes as a 5 win player, and Schierholtz maybe as a 2.
And going forward, Reyes and Nate are younger.
Gigante. Campeón. Pumpkin. Andrés Torres.
Dursh nerf darsh narf. Poop.
He's really good! He's an injury risk! But he's really good! But he'll be expensive! But he's really good! But he's an injury risk!
But you would also have shorter contracts with Rollins and Beltran…3-5 years max. Reyes wants 7.
The Golden Bear is ever watching
2011 Giants Adoptee: Orlando Cabrera (because everyone needs to be loved)
San Francisco Giants Won the 2010 World Series: Not a Typo
I don’t think Reyes is going to get 7, even if he wants it.
Adopted father of Chris Lincecum, without whom (quite literally) Timmy would not exist.
Jason Werth got 7
Quote from my adopted son Mike Krukow: "We're the Giants. We're San Francisco. And we're World Series Champions!"
Crawford
The Golden Bear is ever watching
2011 Giants Adoptee: Orlando Cabrera (because everyone needs to be loved)
San Francisco Giants Won the 2010 World Series: Not a Typo
Werth didn’t have a history of injury.
Adopted father of Chris Lincecum, without whom (quite literally) Timmy would not exist.
Reyes is 4 years younger
Quote from my adopted son Mike Krukow: "We're the Giants. We're San Francisco. And we're World Series Champions!"
That’s true, but I still don’t see a team panicking and giving him 7 years.
Adopted father of Chris Lincecum, without whom (quite literally) Timmy would not exist.
Has nothing to do with panicking
It’s all about the market. I think the market could very easily go to 7 years.
Quote from my adopted son Mike Krukow: "We're the Giants. We're San Francisco. And we're World Series Champions!"
I would be pretty pleased with either, to be honest.
I do like Reyes though…
Adopted Giant: Mike Fontenot
He's like Grant, but fun size.
Occasionally, I tweet.
Either is certainly an acceptable course, and would improve the team significantly.
Gigante. Campeón. Pumpkin. Andrés Torres.
Dursh nerf darsh narf. Poop.
He's really good! He's an injury risk! But he's really good! But he'll be expensive! But he's really good! But he's an injury risk!
Payroll Goes to 150MM
And you might win something, because the offense might be above average.
the only problem is how many years they get. Gotta give them 3 at least. Maybe 2 for Beltran if you had Rollins in hand.
I think 3 is probably to be expected for both.
Giants have $72 million committed next year…they’ll re-up Timmy and Matt but backload the deals to when Zito comes off the books.
They can also back load some hitter’s deals when Huff and Rowand’s contract come off the books.
The Golden Bear is ever watching
2011 Giants Adoptee: Orlando Cabrera (because everyone needs to be loved)
San Francisco Giants Won the 2010 World Series: Not a Typo
Depends on how long the Rollins contract
the guy is getting up in age for a SS, though I like him
Don't believe everything you think.
Nah
I think the organization is more down on Huff than we believe.
The Golden Bear is ever watching
2011 Giants Adoptee: Orlando Cabrera (because everyone needs to be loved)
San Francisco Giants Won the 2010 World Series: Not a Typo
I’ll buy this. Now that Huff is in his final year, another awful showing like 2011 could just mean a DFA.
I think the big thing is not the lack of production but rather his supposed failure to be in shape. It’s a big slap to the Giants’ FO in that Sabean gave him a good deal and then Huff comes back not ready to play.
The Golden Bear is ever watching
2011 Giants Adoptee: Orlando Cabrera (because everyone needs to be loved)
San Francisco Giants Won the 2010 World Series: Not a Typo
Not too far off
But Reyes will probably get $20M per year. I think the minimum to expect for Rollins is $8M and the minimum for Beltran is $12M — then they’d be the same — but more likely is $10M for Rollins and $15M for Beltran. So my belief is that Rollins + Beltran is more expensive. It’s also probably the better option anyway.
There is no way that Philly is giving Rollins 3/36…he made $8.5 million this year and his stats are way down. Philly already have $112 million committed and still need to sign Hamels, re-up Oswalt, sign a closer, half their bullpen, and Carlos Ruiz.
The Golden Bear is ever watching
2011 Giants Adoptee: Orlando Cabrera (because everyone needs to be loved)
San Francisco Giants Won the 2010 World Series: Not a Typo
Not So Sure About That
they are built all-in. don’t think Amaro is going to leave short in the hands of a rook. I’ve checked some phils blogs and thats sort of what they expect. Basically he’s their defacto captain.
They might play chicken, but Amaro will fold before Rollins. He’s not going to give him 5 years, but this is different than letting Rowand, Burrell and Werth walk. There aren’t any replacements for Rollins, especially offensively.
So I bet he gets 3/36 pretty easily from Philly.
They’re not going to have the money.
Hamels is going to cost $15-20 million
Ruiz is going cost about $8-10 million
A decent closer $8-10 million
That’s around where they are now.
The Golden Bear is ever watching
2011 Giants Adoptee: Orlando Cabrera (because everyone needs to be loved)
San Francisco Giants Won the 2010 World Series: Not a Typo
Correction on Ruiz
he’s under contract next year.
The Golden Bear is ever watching
2011 Giants Adoptee: Orlando Cabrera (because everyone needs to be loved)
San Francisco Giants Won the 2010 World Series: Not a Typo
They most certainly have the money
you don’t understand, amaro is all in and he’s a drunken sailor. they will try to get rollins for less, but they will pay 3/36 when push comes to shove.
Best chance to get rollins is if the phils lose tomorrow and he keeps up his tweets.
It’s not about drunken sailor…the big issue is the luxury tax. Oh…I forgot they have to pay Pence next year as well.
The Golden Bear is ever watching
2011 Giants Adoptee: Orlando Cabrera (because everyone needs to be loved)
San Francisco Giants Won the 2010 World Series: Not a Typo
Rollins won’t be the casualty of the luxury tax concerns, if they have those either. Oswalt and Madsen will be gone before that. The issue is there are no replacements on the market for Rollins. He’s in a good position to get paid. Maybe not for 5 years, but he’ll do well.
Oswalt is actually cheap if he can stay on the field ($12 million)
Even if Madsen goes, they’ll need to sign a closer.
Rollins is the most logical one to go.
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2011 Giants Adoptee: Orlando Cabrera (because everyone needs to be loved)
San Francisco Giants Won the 2010 World Series: Not a Typo
I agree with you but the years are important. Reyes would want a 7 year deal
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2011 Giants Adoptee: Orlando Cabrera (because everyone needs to be loved)
San Francisco Giants Won the 2010 World Series: Not a Typo
I would but my sense is that Reyes is going to get a Werth/Crawford level deal.
The Golden Bear is ever watching
2011 Giants Adoptee: Orlando Cabrera (because everyone needs to be loved)
San Francisco Giants Won the 2010 World Series: Not a Typo
Don't agree . . .
look how the Werth deal blew up in the Nats face, which was predictable. I love Reyes but he’s injury prone so I don’t think he’s getting Werth numbers. He won’t be looking for a job for too long, though.
Don't believe everything you think.
Crawford: SS could be the higher priorty
Has to be said that a poor fall league last year was a big factor in how he was viewed (not how he was used).
He’s now 1-8 in the loss today. Brown didn’t play. Bryce Harper is 0-9 but there’s a clear difference with his youth. It’s obviously too soon to tell but if he continues to struggle in the AFL that’s going to shift the priority even more to SS.
YOU APOLOGIZE TO GRIP RIGHT THIS VERY MINUTE!
Dearest, Susan - The Patron Saint of Patience
by Lars The Wanderer on Oct 6, 2011 3:48 PM PDT reply actions
Bye Andres. Thank you for everything.
Belted!
by AndYourBirdCanSing on Oct 6, 2011 3:49 PM PDT reply actions 1 recs
Andres The Former Giant
COMIN' ATCHA, FROM ANCHORAGE, ALASKA!
Fathaigh go mbuaimid!
Proud adoptive Father of Joe Panik. 2011 NWL MVP .
Job 1:14-15
going to be fucking furious when they let Torres go.
by Lies and Perfidy on Oct 6, 2011 3:52 PM PDT reply actions
Same. I'm not angry about it yet.
But I will be.
Adopted Giant: Mike Fontenot
He's like Grant, but fun size.
Occasionally, I tweet.
Honestly
I really think the Giants will keep Torres…
Nate and Belt are the only guys they have under contract and on the team.
Torres is cheap and a good defensive player.
They still need at least two more OFs…Beltran/Ross/Burrell
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2011 Giants Adoptee: Orlando Cabrera (because everyone needs to be loved)
San Francisco Giants Won the 2010 World Series: Not a Typo
Why does everyone think he is going to go? He is A. Cheap and B. The only non-FA left who has played CF. And C. They’ve never said “Oh yeah, we’re letting go of Torres”.
They've shown no confidence in him throughout the season. And Sabes saying there's no CF option in the organization they feel comfortable with.
Adopted Giant: Mike Fontenot
He's like Grant, but fun size.
Occasionally, I tweet.
I am assuming he meant starting CF…that doesn’t mean that they are going to not resign Torres
The Golden Bear is ever watching
2011 Giants Adoptee: Orlando Cabrera (because everyone needs to be loved)
San Francisco Giants Won the 2010 World Series: Not a Typo
If I try and think like sabean and consider Torres as fast, good D in CF, can't hit.
And assume that I’m going to sign someone as a starting CF and use Torres as a 5th OF, then I also assume I can get the same skillset for cheaper than what Torres will earn, and don’t tender him a contract. If Sabean and the org are so down on Torres bat that they think he should be a 5th OF, why not a guy like Darren Ford?
This is why Sabean terrifies me.
Adopted Giant: Mike Fontenot
He's like Grant, but fun size.
Occasionally, I tweet.
Darren Ford is the Emmanuel Burriss of the outfield.
Gigante. Campeón. Pumpkin. Andrés Torres.
Dursh nerf darsh narf. Poop.
He's really good! He's an injury risk! But he's really good! But he'll be expensive! But he's really good! But he's an injury risk!
I agree. But I don't think Sabean does.
Adopted Giant: Mike Fontenot
He's like Grant, but fun size.
Occasionally, I tweet.
No…I think they do. Ford only showed up in extra innings/blowouts/and as a PH.
The Golden Bear is ever watching
2011 Giants Adoptee: Orlando Cabrera (because everyone needs to be loved)
San Francisco Giants Won the 2010 World Series: Not a Typo
dang it
Pinch runner…not PH.
The Golden Bear is ever watching
2011 Giants Adoptee: Orlando Cabrera (because everyone needs to be loved)
San Francisco Giants Won the 2010 World Series: Not a Typo
But none of that leads you to releasing him. Indeed, they released Rowand and did play Torres when he was healthy. Booting him now, insofar as nontendering him and not going after him as a FA, means you just need two new CFs (main and someone who can play backup) instead of one. He might have to play his way into the lineup, but I wouldn’t concede anything further.
They sat him for Ross until Ross hurt himself. And then they promoted Christian.
Joe Nobody: The slugging speedster the Giants need, at an irrationally low price.
"118 elements, and still no stanfurdium"- carp, paraphrased
"That one's on me."- Madison Bumgarner
by natteringnabob on Oct 6, 2011 4:20 PM PDT up reply actions
What makes you think that he was being sit for Ross? In any event, his sleep problems were well-documented, and yet he still was played quite a bit (June and July I count more PAs for Torres than Ross for example). August and May Torres was out on the DL; Ross was out early and late.
Christian was only around during September, and apparently they were seeing if he could contribute anything. Their opinion on him is pretty clear by now.
I read “Torres when healthy” as referring to the time after he returned from his rehab in Fresno.
Joe Nobody: The slugging speedster the Giants need, at an irrationally low price.
"118 elements, and still no stanfurdium"- carp, paraphrased
"That one's on me."- Madison Bumgarner
by natteringnabob on Oct 6, 2011 4:46 PM PDT up reply actions
Even if they pursue other CFs
they must be able to see Torres is a viable 4th OF, who they can sign for a sum that won’t be embarrassing if a 4th OF is all he ends up being.
"If it's weird, you know it's probably Wilson's." - Matt Cain
this
is why I think they’ll decide they can “save” $2M by cutting Torres, because they’re going to “upgrade” in CF anyway. The word “Torres” didn’t get mentioned in that press conference, but Justin Christian did. Torres as the 5th CF is a “luxury” they won’t spend on.
Joe Nobody: The slugging speedster the Giants need, at an irrationally low price.
"118 elements, and still no stanfurdium"- carp, paraphrased
"That one's on me."- Madison Bumgarner
by natteringnabob on Oct 6, 2011 4:21 PM PDT up reply actions
And the reason they mentioned Christian was to discard him because of his skillset, even at league min (assuming he would take it anyway). Drawing a comparison between Torres and Keppinger, the “luxury”, doesn’t seem very similar. They have Franchez and Fontenot is starting at lower base salary. In comparison the OF has Schierholtz and Belt, neither of who seem to be in the CF mix.
It's going to be Crisp or McClouth
Mark it down.
Quote from my adopted son Mike Krukow: "We're the Giants. We're San Francisco. And we're World Series Champions!"
if the indians dont pick up sizemore's option
i think we should definitely go for it. not necessarily to play CF. beltran is probably gonna be out of our price range, especially if we spend on a quality SS (which is the biggest need really) and when healthy sizemore is a machine. dude’s 29 too so it’s not inconceivable he could heal up somewhat.
CF should definitely be torres. never understood why he had such a short leash. why did he deserve that and huff didn’t?
Well our training staff does have a history of doing really with injured players...
I pray for your ribs Grady
Quote from my adopted son Mike Krukow: "We're the Giants. We're San Francisco. And we're World Series Champions!"
Sizemore is the only guy I'd be cool with the Giants trying to get and play over Torres next year
But that’s MVP level talent if healthy. That’s a whole other thing.
Gigante. Campeón. Pumpkin. Andrés Torres.
Dursh nerf darsh narf. Poop.
He's really good! He's an injury risk! But he's really good! But he'll be expensive! But he's really good! But he's an injury risk!
by GiantPain on Oct 6, 2011 3:57 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
I approve
any and all dumpster dives of this nature. I don’t advocate throwing big money (for them) at him.
Joe Nobody: The slugging speedster the Giants need, at an irrationally low price.
"118 elements, and still no stanfurdium"- carp, paraphrased
"That one's on me."- Madison Bumgarner
by natteringnabob on Oct 6, 2011 4:22 PM PDT up reply actions
Keppinger in that clip...
I detect no signs of life. Is that really him or just an amazingly lifelike wax replica?
Thank you Edgar Renteria, for hitting the ball three feet higher.
So Lincecum trashed his apartment?
http://blog.sfgate.com/giants/2011/10/06/s-f-giants-lincecum-sued-for-trashing-apartment/?tsp=1
I was curious so I google mapped the address. It certainly doesn’t look like a spot where you can do that kind of damage.
http://maps.google.com/maps?q=141+Hampshire+Street,+San+Francisco,CA&hl=en&ll=37.76689,-122.407758&spn=0.006276,0.013679&sll=37.767402,-122.408404&sspn=0.006295,0.006295&layer=c&cbp=13,53.59,,0,10.96&cbll=37.767309,-122.408767&hnear=141Hampshire+St,+San+Francisco,+California+94103&t=h&z=17&vpsrc=0&panoid=0C6T7xkVh99yk2JdP-fFqQ
The car looked familiar. I think it’s the same one from this old offseason video from last year (near the very end).
http://blogs.seattleweekly.com/dailyweekly/2011/01/tim_lincecums_condo_in_downtow.php
My cyberstalking for the day is complete.
Wasn’t there another Giants player who was sued this season for trashing an apartment?
If I was Natto, not only would I hate me, but I would link you back to where this was extensively discussed.
2010 World Series Champions!
Adopted 'nephew' to the ever avuncular and always awesome Jon Miller
by Johnny Disaster on Oct 6, 2011 4:07 PM PDT up reply actions
That guy should be holding a PBR
Dearest, Susan - The Patron Saint of Patience
by Lars The Wanderer on Oct 6, 2011 4:15 PM PDT up reply actions
Hey! Does Natto come to your corner and slap the dick out of your mouth?!
2010 World Series Champions!
Adopted 'nephew' to the ever avuncular and always awesome Jon Miller
by Johnny Disaster on Oct 6, 2011 4:36 PM PDT up reply actions
Sometimes!
Dearest, Susan - The Patron Saint of Patience
by Lars The Wanderer on Oct 6, 2011 4:42 PM PDT up reply actions
another PSA
If you’re a UC Berkeleyan, get a mumps shot at Tang.
Even if you are vaccinated, get the third shot
A lot of the people who got the Mumps had the first two and got sick anyway. So get the “optional” third shot.
by WhatsAMataHari on Oct 6, 2011 4:36 PM PDT up reply actions
Evidently Nate wants to do more gambling next year?
Thank you Edgar Renteria, for hitting the ball three feet higher.
Wait run this by me again
Giants have $72 million committed next year…$50 million left
$15-17 million to Timmy
$ 6 million to Dirty
$ 3-4 million to Panda
That leaves about $25 million left to spend…who else is left to sign?
Also Giants could just back load deals after 2013 when Huff and Rowand come off the books and 2014 when Zito comes off.
The Golden Bear is ever watching
2011 Giants Adoptee: Orlando Cabrera (because everyone needs to be loved)
San Francisco Giants Won the 2010 World Series: Not a Typo
...
http://mlbcontracts.blogspot.com/2004/12/san-francisco-giants_30.html
Quote from my adopted son Mike Krukow: "We're the Giants. We're San Francisco. And we're World Series Champions!"
Didn’t the Giants say they wanted to get away from backloading contracts… something about having to pay Bonds until 2109…
Adopted Giant: Eddie I Have It Grant.
TSFGWTWS DESPITE Botchy, not BECAUSE of him.
I mean Timmy doesn’t become a FA until 2014 and Matt until 2013. So backloading would just be a rearrangement of when the money gets paid.
The Golden Bear is ever watching
2011 Giants Adoptee: Orlando Cabrera (because everyone needs to be loved)
San Francisco Giants Won the 2010 World Series: Not a Typo
Fontenot: $2 milllion
Lopez/Affeldt: $4-5 million
Vogelsong: $1 million
Casilla: $1.5-$2 million
That’s about $10 million…so another $15 million…
The Golden Bear is ever watching
2011 Giants Adoptee: Orlando Cabrera (because everyone needs to be loved)
San Francisco Giants Won the 2010 World Series: Not a Typo
You really dont understand how arbitration works do u
Quote from my adopted son Mike Krukow: "We're the Giants. We're San Francisco. And we're World Series Champions!"
I'm sure you have inside information
The Golden Bear is ever watching
2011 Giants Adoptee: Orlando Cabrera (because everyone needs to be loved)
San Francisco Giants Won the 2010 World Series: Not a Typo
It's been explained numerous times and linked to
http://www.mercurynews.com/giants/ci_19008472
Doesn’t take inside information to understand it. You should do a yahoo search. It might help you probably figure these things out.
Quote from my adopted son Mike Krukow: "We're the Giants. We're San Francisco. And we're World Series Champions!"
Vogelsong is not getting $4 million
Keppinger is not coming back
You can still structure deals so that the Giants’ payroll remains about the same and add a Beltran and Rollin.
The Golden Bear is ever watching
2011 Giants Adoptee: Orlando Cabrera (because everyone needs to be loved)
San Francisco Giants Won the 2010 World Series: Not a Typo
I'd LOVE to hear your logic on why Vogelsong wouldnt get something close to 4 mil
And why if he gets 2-3 mil instead of 4 that makes any significant difference. Because he definitely is getting more than the 1 mil you suggested.
Quote from my adopted son Mike Krukow: "We're the Giants. We're San Francisco. And we're World Series Champions!"
Because he had a one very good season and a history of not so good.
Even assuming he gets $4 million, the Giants can still get a Rollins and a Beltran if they back load deals to 2013 and 2014.
The Golden Bear is ever watching
2011 Giants Adoptee: Orlando Cabrera (because everyone needs to be loved)
San Francisco Giants Won the 2010 World Series: Not a Typo
And
even using those numbers, the payroll is about $112 million.
The $125 million number Sabean is talking about includes Beltran’s salary for 2011.
The Golden Bear is ever watching
2011 Giants Adoptee: Orlando Cabrera (because everyone needs to be loved)
San Francisco Giants Won the 2010 World Series: Not a Typo
Sigh
You do know we didnt pay Beltran’s entire salary for last year right
Quote from my adopted son Mike Krukow: "We're the Giants. We're San Francisco. And we're World Series Champions!"
Yes
$4 million from the Met and pro-rated $18.5M
The Golden Bear is ever watching
2011 Giants Adoptee: Orlando Cabrera (because everyone needs to be loved)
San Francisco Giants Won the 2010 World Series: Not a Typo
not to get involved here
but you haven’t counted Mat Can in this list?
Joe Nobody: The slugging speedster the Giants need, at an irrationally low price.
"118 elements, and still no stanfurdium"- carp, paraphrased
"That one's on me."- Madison Bumgarner
by natteringnabob on Oct 6, 2011 4:59 PM PDT up reply actions
Don't want him
Too many T’s in his name.
The Golden Bear is ever watching
2011 Giants Adoptee: Orlando Cabrera (because everyone needs to be loved)
San Francisco Giants Won the 2010 World Series: Not a Typo
But doesn’t he get like $15M of the taffy you’re handing out?
Joe Nobody: The slugging speedster the Giants need, at an irrationally low price.
"118 elements, and still no stanfurdium"- carp, paraphrased
"That one's on me."- Madison Bumgarner
by natteringnabob on Oct 6, 2011 5:00 PM PDT up reply actions
also…he’s already counted…his FA year comes in 2013.
The Golden Bear is ever watching
2011 Giants Adoptee: Orlando Cabrera (because everyone needs to be loved)
San Francisco Giants Won the 2010 World Series: Not a Typo
I don’t think I understand what is happening here. Are you hypothesizing that he takes a note from the Giants as part of his salary? Because if he walks IMO there’s not a lot of point to this exercise.
Joe Nobody: The slugging speedster the Giants need, at an irrationally low price.
"118 elements, and still no stanfurdium"- carp, paraphrased
"That one's on me."- Madison Bumgarner
by natteringnabob on Oct 6, 2011 5:03 PM PDT up reply actions
Wait I’m confused.
No, Cain is already part of the payroll at $15.3 million for 2012. The question is whether the Giants are going to re-up him longterm.
The Golden Bear is ever watching
2011 Giants Adoptee: Orlando Cabrera (because everyone needs to be loved)
San Francisco Giants Won the 2010 World Series: Not a Typo
OK, I just didn’t see you counting him.
Joe Nobody: The slugging speedster the Giants need, at an irrationally low price.
"118 elements, and still no stanfurdium"- carp, paraphrased
"That one's on me."- Madison Bumgarner
by natteringnabob on Oct 6, 2011 5:07 PM PDT up reply actions
In dealing with CalBear's nonsense I noticed this on Cots..
Is this true?
acquired by San Francisco in trade from NY Mets 7/28/11 (waived no-trade clause) (Mets pay $4M of remaining $6.5M in 2011 salary)
Quote from my adopted son Mike Krukow: "We're the Giants. We're San Francisco. And we're World Series Champions!"
I don’t know which is surprising you, the waived no-trade or the Mets eating salary, but yes that’s what happened.
Joe Nobody: The slugging speedster the Giants need, at an irrationally low price.
"118 elements, and still no stanfurdium"- carp, paraphrased
"That one's on me."- Madison Bumgarner
by natteringnabob on Oct 6, 2011 4:59 PM PDT up reply actions
LOL i didnt remember the Mets eating THAT much in salary
Quote from my adopted son Mike Krukow: "We're the Giants. We're San Francisco. And we're World Series Champions!"
That’s how much they wanted Wheeler.
@legaleagle88
Giants Baseball: Why Not?
I thought Nate Schierholtz was cool before it was cool to think Nate Schierholtz was cool.
by kdl on Oct 6, 2011 6:00 PM PDT up reply actions
Or, at least that’s what we told Wheeler. We were like, “you should be excited. You got traded for the best guy on the market, AND the Mets paid an additional $4 million for you!” He laughed.
@legaleagle88
Giants Baseball: Why Not?
I thought Nate Schierholtz was cool before it was cool to think Nate Schierholtz was cool.
by kdl on Oct 6, 2011 6:01 PM PDT up reply actions
GO TIGERS!!
Dearest, Susan - The Patron Saint of Patience
by Lars The Wanderer on Oct 6, 2011 5:02 PM PDT reply actions
Dear Bruce Bochy and the San Francisco Giants
I think the biggest thing is the deep seeded emotional understanding that the right play is the right play regardless of outcomes. The ability to make a decision 5 straight times, lose 5 times because of it, and still make it the 6th time if it’s the right play. Magic players have been developing that since their teens, and its just so applicable to poker, gambling, and life in general.
I read a cracked article about online poker where they talked about it making you "immune to bad luck". You just take the bad beats in every area of your life in stride and move on.
— Jon Finkel
Obviously any links in the above post are probably NSFW
The baseball gods do not always punish the wicked but they will not just allow people to spit in their faces -- Joe Posnanski
Kudos, You are a sick, sick man, but you are very good at it -- wcw
The Giants will not be signing Reyes, Beltran or Rollins. NOW STFU AND GAMETHREAD, YOU ASS TICKLERS!
Dearest, Susan - The Patron Saint of Patience
by Lars The Wanderer on Oct 6, 2011 5:06 PM PDT reply actions
NO U
They will be signing Manuel Reyes, Carlos Febles, and Henry Rollins. THEIR BATS ARE UNSTOPPABLE
Joe Nobody: The slugging speedster the Giants need, at an irrationally low price.
"118 elements, and still no stanfurdium"- carp, paraphrased
"That one's on me."- Madison Bumgarner
by natteringnabob on Oct 6, 2011 5:08 PM PDT up reply actions
Henry Rollins looks in pretty good shape for some dude in his 50’s. The Giants could also use him to host slam poetry nights during the season
by Dingoes Ate My Baby on Oct 6, 2011 5:14 PM PDT up reply actions
I think he could take people out sliding to second
by WhatsAMataHari on Oct 6, 2011 5:17 PM PDT up reply actions
HAHA
Dearest, Susan - The Patron Saint of Patience
by Lars The Wanderer on Oct 6, 2011 5:18 PM PDT up reply actions
LOL TIM
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
I call him gerald. he’s a pristine white handkerchief, though? nediB eoJ Joe Biden ‽ Joe Biden.
Fister v. Nova
who will come out on top?
The Golden Bear is ever watching
2011 Giants Adoptee: Orlando Cabrera (because everyone needs to be loved)
San Francisco Giants Won the 2010 World Series: Not a Typo
BOOM, MOTHERFUCKERS!
Dearest, Susan - The Patron Saint of Patience
by Lars The Wanderer on Oct 6, 2011 5:09 PM PDT reply actions
DOUBLE BOOM!!
Dearest, Susan - The Patron Saint of Patience
by Lars The Wanderer on Oct 6, 2011 5:10 PM PDT reply actions
But Nova was 16-4 in the regular season!
The Golden Bear is ever watching
2011 Giants Adoptee: Orlando Cabrera (because everyone needs to be loved)
San Francisco Giants Won the 2010 World Series: Not a Typo
Unfortunately, Yankees’ lineup is not the Giants’ lineup.
The Golden Bear is ever watching
2011 Giants Adoptee: Orlando Cabrera (because everyone needs to be loved)
San Francisco Giants Won the 2010 World Series: Not a Typo
If the Giants had the Yankees lineup, they would win 105 games.
Still the father of two-time Cy Young Award winner Tim Lincecum.
"Failure is not fatal, but failure to change might be." - John Wooden
Maybe more.
Adopted Giant: Mike Fontenot
He's like Grant, but fun size.
Occasionally, I tweet.
I'm going to do this at least 10 times this offseason becasue I've been doing it all season when talking to my A's fan friend
Whenever I say Jermaine Dye.
Just think David DeJesus.
Obviously any links in the above post are probably NSFW
The baseball gods do not always punish the wicked but they will not just allow people to spit in their faces -- Joe Posnanski
Kudos, You are a sick, sick man, but you are very good at it -- wcw
DeJesus Christ, Superstar
Do you think you’re what we say you are?
by WhatsAMataHari on Oct 6, 2011 5:15 PM PDT up reply actions
The man traded straight up for Pedro Martinez
Obviously any links in the above post are probably NSFW
The baseball gods do not always punish the wicked but they will not just allow people to spit in their faces -- Joe Posnanski
Kudos, You are a sick, sick man, but you are very good at it -- wcw
I did not know this
Obviously any links in the above post are probably NSFW
The baseball gods do not always punish the wicked but they will not just allow people to spit in their faces -- Joe Posnanski
Kudos, You are a sick, sick man, but you are very good at it -- wcw
I'd really like to know what qualifies as certain circumstances
The first six innings are overrated.
When she's pretty damn hot?
Obviously any links in the above post are probably NSFW
The baseball gods do not always punish the wicked but they will not just allow people to spit in their faces -- Joe Posnanski
Kudos, You are a sick, sick man, but you are very good at it -- wcw
Sweet, I’m asking one out on a date as I type this
by Dingoes Ate My Baby on Oct 6, 2011 5:19 PM PDT up reply actions
That’s just sound breeding practice!
Joe Nobody: The slugging speedster the Giants need, at an irrationally low price.
"118 elements, and still no stanfurdium"- carp, paraphrased
"That one's on me."- Madison Bumgarner
by natteringnabob on Oct 6, 2011 5:21 PM PDT up reply actions
insert inevitable Cersei/Jamie Lannister joke
by Dingoes Ate My Baby on Oct 6, 2011 5:23 PM PDT up reply actions
Now how many states allow you to marry more than one person?
Dearest, Susan - The Patron Saint of Patience
by Lars The Wanderer on Oct 6, 2011 5:17 PM PDT up reply actions
Rhode Island?
Obviously any links in the above post are probably NSFW
The baseball gods do not always punish the wicked but they will not just allow people to spit in their faces -- Joe Posnanski
Kudos, You are a sick, sick man, but you are very good at it -- wcw
I must be missing something – you did not know what?
I DON'T BELIEVE YOU (AGAIN) [now with theme song]
I tweet (and occasionally blarg) | Your San Francisco Giants: "Together We're Broken!"
That more states allow you to marry your first cousin than your gay partner
Obviously any links in the above post are probably NSFW
The baseball gods do not always punish the wicked but they will not just allow people to spit in their faces -- Joe Posnanski
Kudos, You are a sick, sick man, but you are very good at it -- wcw
Ah. On my screen all I have is your subject line.
I DON'T BELIEVE YOU (AGAIN) [now with theme song]
I tweet (and occasionally blarg) | Your San Francisco Giants: "Together We're Broken!"
I read somewhere that genetic dangers aside, the yuck factor of being with a close relative is conditioned on how closely you interacted growing up. If you never met, even if you know she’s your cousin, you’re more likely to not feel any ick at all.
I rhyme with freak.
You reportedly might even be more attracted to them under those circumstances.
2010 World Series Champions!
Adopted 'nephew' to the ever avuncular and always awesome Jon Miller
by Johnny Disaster on Oct 6, 2011 5:29 PM PDT up reply actions
I thought the Captain got moved out of the lead off spot, something I know because it was apparently a big deal in NY for two weeks or so as they debated whether or not Jeter being moved down the lineup would show proper respect for his Jeterness
by Dingoes Ate My Baby on Oct 6, 2011 5:16 PM PDT reply actions
Fister!!!!
The Golden Bear is ever watching
2011 Giants Adoptee: Orlando Cabrera (because everyone needs to be loved)
San Francisco Giants Won the 2010 World Series: Not a Typo
Catching a little Chronicle Live, they are doing one of those debate segments and showed tweets along with the debates. They were debating if the Giants should extend Bochy. One wrote that the fan base will be livid if the Giants DON’T extend him.
Still the father of two-time Cy Young Award winner Tim Lincecum.
"Failure is not fatal, but failure to change might be." - John Wooden
They have no clue
Dearest, Susan - The Patron Saint of Patience
by Lars The Wanderer on Oct 6, 2011 5:21 PM PDT up reply actions
Remember the poll during one of the games
“Who do you most want to see back?”
and the highest vote getter was Eli Whiteside?
by WhatsAMataHari on Oct 6, 2011 5:22 PM PDT up reply actions
Come on Tigers
You’re my AL team now.
Gigante. Campeón. Pumpkin. Andrés Torres.
Dursh nerf darsh narf. Poop.
He's really good! He's an injury risk! But he's really good! But he'll be expensive! But he's really good! But he's an injury risk!
They’ve always been mine. Suck it, bandwagon hopper!
I DON'T BELIEVE YOU (AGAIN) [now with theme song]
I tweet (and occasionally blarg) | Your San Francisco Giants: "Together We're Broken!"
Stupid Rays =(
Gigante. Campeón. Pumpkin. Andrés Torres.
Dursh nerf darsh narf. Poop.
He's really good! He's an injury risk! But he's really good! But he'll be expensive! But he's really good! But he's an injury risk!
I'm still on the Rangers winning the WS bandwagon
Obviously any links in the above post are probably NSFW
The baseball gods do not always punish the wicked but they will not just allow people to spit in their faces -- Joe Posnanski
Kudos, You are a sick, sick man, but you are very good at it -- wcw
"Look - it's my eleventy billionth thread today. Go to it, my sheep!"
I DON'T BELIEVE YOU (AGAIN) [now with theme song]
I tweet (and occasionally blarg) | Your San Francisco Giants: "Together We're Broken!"
Nova?
I hardly knew va! hahahahaha
Joe Nobody: The slugging speedster the Giants need, at an irrationally low price.
"118 elements, and still no stanfurdium"- carp, paraphrased
"That one's on me."- Madison Bumgarner
by natteringnabob on Oct 6, 2011 5:32 PM PDT up reply actions
first post
where am I?
Who is the commanding officer here?
aint you!
Shift-A
Even if one accepts 2011 as just a part of Torres’ history, with no discounting at all for the several reasons it might be anomalous, his post-ADHD-meds major-league career (2009/2010/2011) shows better cumulative offense value than Coco Crisp’s career. And as fielders, there is just no comparison between the two.
Sabean is hence either a liar (for purposes obscure) or an imcompetent fool. But I suppose that is too limiting; he might be both.
Professional baseball analyst since 1980.
Wir sind gewohnt, daß die Menschen verhöhnen was sie nicht verstehn.—Goethe
by owlcroft on Oct 6, 2011 11:21 PM PDT reply actions 1 recs
The first paragraph is pure fact.
The second is simply a logical conclusion from the first plus Sabean’s known statements.
Professional baseball analyst since 1980.
Wir sind gewohnt, daß die Menschen verhöhnen was sie nicht verstehn.—Goethe
/troll that hates Torres but can’t find anyone else to suggest to play CF is noted
Joe Nobody: The slugging speedster the Giants need, at an irrationally low price.
"118 elements, and still no stanfurdium"- carp, paraphrased
"That one's on me."- Madison Bumgarner
by natteringnabob on Oct 8, 2011 6:10 AM PDT up reply actions
that’s worth a rec in my book.
plus extra credit for the irony of spelling, “incompetent”, imcorrectly.
Over
by cybermaldonado on Oct 7, 2011 12:29 PM PDT up reply actions
It’s funny because many fools will tell you ’I’m competent’.
2010 World Series Champions!
Adopted 'nephew' to the ever avuncular and always awesome Jon Miller
by Johnny Disaster on Oct 7, 2011 12:57 PM PDT up reply actions
Not bad.
There is not an entry for, “imcompetent”, on Urban Dictionary. Maybe you should go add that.
I did check there first to make sure I wasn’t missing out on the newest meme. I learned the need to do that after the first time I saw the word, “sarchasm”.
Over
by cybermaldonado on Oct 7, 2011 1:23 PM PDT up reply actions
You should see . . .
. . . what these things look like before I proof them (or rather, you shouldn’t). For the last many months, my typing has deteriorated so badly (and it was never good) that I suspect age effects. But at least the behavioral tests for Alzheimer’s show negative.
Professional baseball analyst since 1980.
Wir sind gewohnt, daß die Menschen verhöhnen was sie nicht verstehn.—Goethe
I like how people make an argument for Torres using numbers and the fact that “he’s a great guy”….Whereas arguments against Brett Pill typically (but not always) include comments that denigrate his abilities and mere existence as a human being.
One person who shall not be named even went as far as to say,
“I hope Brett Pill has a .000/.000/.000 line in spring training next year”
My point being, ego attachments to how well a player performs or doesn’t perform leads to confirmation bias and the undervaluation/overvaluation of player worth, depending on which theory confirms what you thought would happen. In other words, “being right” has become more important than the actual results.
Yes, the fact that he’s an elite defender at a premium defensive position while also being basically a league average bat and costing very little has nothing to do with it.
2010 World Series Champions!
Adopted 'nephew' to the ever avuncular and always awesome Jon Miller
by Johnny Disaster on Oct 7, 2011 3:05 PM PDT up reply actions
I would love to have carlos gomez from MIL.
I’m not sure of his contract but the brewers look happy to have Plush in center.
Flem: "Tim are you enjoying the party?"
Timmy: "That would be a fair assumption."
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