Navigation: Jump to content areas:


Pro Quality. Fan Perspective.
Login-facebook
Around SBN: Full Coverage of 2012 Coke 600

Rough Road Awaits Can the Giants repeat as World Series champions in 2011? Of course they can. Dan Szymborski, however, offers up four reasons why it'll be quite a difficult challenge.

San Francisco Giants' repeat problems

Elite pitching? Check. Scrappy core? Check. But winning it all again will be tough.

By Dan Szymborski
Special to ESPN Insider

The 2010 San Francisco Giants had an amazing playoff run -- but doing it again in 2011 is going to be somewhat of an uphill battle for four main reasons.


http://insider.espn.go.com/mlb/hotstove10/insider/news/story?page=SanFranciscoGiantsRepeat&action=login&appRedirect=http://insider.espn.go.com/mlb/hotstove10/insider/news/story%3fpage%3dSanFranciscoGiantsRepeat

Anyone have access to the ESPN Insider article here?

This FanPost is reader-generated, and it does not necessarily reflect the views of McCovey Chronicles. If the author uses filler to achieve the minimum word requirement, a moderator may edit the FanPost for his or her own amusement.

Comment 66 comments  |  0 recs  | 

Do you like this story?

Comments

Display:

Yes, but I don’t think we are allowed to copy paste insider articles. He is saying basically what we’ve said the entire offseason :

Can the Giants rotation stay healthy?
Is this true talent level of Posey?
Can Huff / Burrell / Torres maintain their performance?

The Giants will need all those to happen to contend. We could do it, we might not. That’s why we play the games.

Obviously any links in the above post are probably NSFW
The baseball gods do not always punish the wicked but they will not just allow people to spit in their faces -- Joe Posnanski
I wish I would stop cheating. fuck. this is jctgamer's fault -- jponry

by jctGamer on Jan 11, 2011 11:54 AM PST reply actions  

4 reasons why it won't be difficult

timmy, mattee, dirty, weezee, madbum, posey, huff, torres, mole, panda, pat the bat, nate the great, ish, miggy, PACBELL

oops, that’s more then 4, my bad….

GO GIANTS!!!!!1

Trade Sabean/jk...Fire the Ydorks...

by Regulus on Jan 11, 2011 11:56 AM PST reply actions  

zeets, rowand, derosa

our wildcards, let’s do this already

Trade Sabean/jk...Fire the Ydorks...

by Regulus on Jan 11, 2011 11:57 AM PST up reply actions  

In the wildebeest column, amirite?

2010 World Series Champions!
Adopted 'nephew' to the ever avuncular and always awesome Jon Miller

by Johnny Disaster on Jan 11, 2011 12:23 PM PST up reply actions  

But seriously, I love Pablo and wish him only the best.

2010 World Series Champions!
Adopted 'nephew' to the ever avuncular and always awesome Jon Miller

by Johnny Disaster on Jan 11, 2011 12:23 PM PST up reply actions  

Yup, wildcards.

Juan "Doesn't Cheat The Game" Perez, future CF for the World Champion San Francisco Giants.

by marcello on Jan 11, 2011 12:30 PM PST up reply actions  

So Nate and TI are going to power the team into the playoffs?

2010 World Series Champions!
Adopted 'nephew' to the ever avuncular and always awesome Jon Miller

by Johnny Disaster on Jan 11, 2011 12:22 PM PST up reply actions  

Depends on which model TI we get. TI-83 is what we’ve been getting. It’s 89 or no WS Championship, really…

by seaborn on Jan 11, 2011 9:45 PM PST up reply actions  

Looks like someone thought

…all 75 words needed to be in the title

The thong is, it happened.

by Goofus on Jan 11, 2011 12:20 PM PST reply actions   1 recs

LOL…I thought the title was the post.

I'm a Giants Fan, but I'll always be rooting for Matt Downs
Where is Dan Burkhart going to play ?

by nvsfg on Jan 11, 2011 12:26 PM PST up reply actions  

I saw the title, tl;dr…. and immediately posted a link to the same article. Go me.

"Career potential: situational lefty." Situation: Ragnarok, bases loaded, Odin at the plate. You know who's getting the call.

-Adopted Giant: Dan Runzler

by Alex_Lewis on Jan 11, 2011 3:12 PM PST up reply actions  

Question:

Is there a way to rec the title, but not the post?

"This is a street fight, and we win those." -- BRIAN SABEAN, 10/23/10

by Josh from Hollywood on Jan 11, 2011 2:11 PM PST up reply actions  

if you need to get Insider, just watch a site like Slickdeals for good deals on ESPN the Magazine subscriptions – can usually be had for ~$4.00/year….and then call in to activate your free concurrent ESPN Insider account…

by repeat_in_2011 on Jan 11, 2011 12:35 PM PST reply actions  

I'd rather be insider

…than outside her

The thong is, it happened.

by Goofus on Jan 11, 2011 12:38 PM PST up reply actions  

The Goofus Cafe

Liquor in the front and poker in the rear.

"This is a street fight, and we win those." -- BRIAN SABEAN, 10/23/10

by Josh from Hollywood on Jan 11, 2011 2:12 PM PST up reply actions  

lol, was waiting for that…

by repeat_in_2011 on Jan 11, 2011 2:20 PM PST up reply actions  

That's what I did, on eBay though

I got 4 years of trash delivered to my door for $11 and it came with an Insider subscription. Best trash I’ve ever paid for.

Juan "Doesn't Cheat The Game" Perez, future CF for the World Champion San Francisco Giants.

by marcello on Jan 11, 2011 1:00 PM PST up reply actions  

How much trash have you paid for?

Ain't no Posey like a Buster Posey cause a Buster Posey don't stop...hitting.

Giants baseball: We're stupid enough to WIN that (TM)

by quincy0191 on Jan 11, 2011 1:30 PM PST up reply actions  

I eat pieces of shit like you for breakfast!

You eat pieces of shit?

by kaliber on Jan 11, 2011 1:46 PM PST up reply actions  

I'mma let you finish

But that was the best piece of shit of all time.

OF ALL TIME

These are my principles. If you don't like them, I have others. -Groucho Marx

by RDreamer on Jan 11, 2011 9:28 PM PST up reply actions  

Most important piece of shit of the day.

Look out. I'm having a thought.

by waelwulf on Jan 12, 2011 10:55 AM PST up reply actions  

One time a bum basically snatched $20 out of my hand while simultaneously throwing a broken CD player into it. So basically, I’ve now paid for at least $31 worth of trash.

Juan "Doesn't Cheat The Game" Perez, future CF for the World Champion San Francisco Giants.

by marcello on Jan 11, 2011 2:00 PM PST up reply actions  

yeah, i just throw the magazine away…

by repeat_in_2011 on Jan 11, 2011 2:19 PM PST up reply actions  

The buzz word this season

seems to be regression. And I am not sure why it is being thrown around so friviously. I understand that regression is part of the game and that player performances flucuate from year to year with expected regression towards individual averages. So when people talk about Huff regressing I can get on board with that. But when the talk of Posey regressing comes up I just think people dont know what they’re talking about.

What is Posey supposed to regress to league average? Perhaps Posey is better than league average? Perhaps Posey is 25 and improving rather than declining and will be better than last year?

Plus doesnt regression work both ways as Sandoval and Timmy, and Ross are all due for positive returns in 2011?

by Franchise55 on Jan 11, 2011 1:22 PM PST reply actions  

Regression does go both ways.

All three (OK maybe not Timmy) will probably improve in 2011 over their season performance.

My adopted son: Jose Casilla.

Man of the Crazy Sink. And owner of a 103 ZiPS ERA+ in 2011.

by dregarx on Jan 11, 2011 1:57 PM PST up reply actions  

I wish I could be confident about a Sandoval rebound

But unless losing weight somehow improves plate discipline I have my doubts.

by Bochy's IT guy on Jan 11, 2011 3:45 PM PST up reply actions  

It'll improve his batting average.

My adopted son: Jose Casilla.

Man of the Crazy Sink. And owner of a 103 ZiPS ERA+ in 2011.

by dregarx on Jan 11, 2011 4:02 PM PST up reply actions  

don’t you think Timmy will improve on 2010 reg season stats?
he had quite a dropoff from 2008+2009…

by repeat_in_2011 on Jan 11, 2011 5:20 PM PST up reply actions  

There was no way that the pitching staff in 2010 could be as good as in 2009. I believed that. I really did.

by Grant Brisbee on Jan 11, 2011 2:21 PM PST up reply actions  

If you really want to know...

First of all, saying that he’s a regression candidate is not an indictment on his potential greatness.

In 2007, Ryan Braun was worth 5.0 wins on offense, hitting .320/.370/.634. The next season he hit .285/.335/.553. Troy Tulowitzki that 2007 season hit .291/.359/.479, in 2008 he got hurt and dipped to .263/.332/.401. Both of course rebounded in 2009. In 2001, 21 year old Abert Pujols burst onto the scene with a 1.013 OPS and 88 extra base hits. The next year he was still amazing, but less so with a .955 OPS and 76 extra base hits. He was back to his rookie line the following season.

Posey can be better than league average (he no doubt is) and still regress. Maybe he’ll be one of the exceptions and keep everything in his line in tact, Evan Longoria’s been pretty much the same player each season since he’s been called up (note that he didn’t improve on his first season) but it’s usually the case that the top rookies in the league one season fall back a little the next, just like it’s usually that way with MVP candidates because there’s this sort of implied aspect that you have to be both lucky and good to be in that class. In this vein, Rockies fans should expect Tulo and Cargo to drop back some, although like you with Posey we’re hoping some of that drop with Tulo is made up with more playing time.

My second point with Posey from an opposing fans’ perspective would be that even if he’s solid for an entire season rather than two thirds of one, there still isn’t a whole lot more the Giants as a team can expect to gain over 2010 at the catcher position because you already got just under five wins there last season. Joe Mauer in his best season so far (age 26, 2009) was worth eight wins, every other season has been under six and the Twins as a team have gone above the six win mark only twice in the Mauer era. I guess the caveat would be Mauer hasn’t played in more than 146 games in a season, so maybe you guys want to push that boundary with Posey, as an opposing fan I sort of hope Bochy does. The sooner Posey has to move permanently from catcher, the better.

by Rox Girl on Jan 11, 2011 4:47 PM PST up reply actions  

Posey gets a lot of his value from being a catcher. I think the later Posey has to move is the better. I’d rather have him play ten less games in a year, largely because there aren’t many free-agent alternatives in the C position, whereas there are like 2930101249 for 1B.

by seaborn on Jan 11, 2011 9:48 PM PST up reply actions  

That's exactly what she means.

It’s from a Rockies fan perspective.

My adopted son: Jose Casilla.

Man of the Crazy Sink. And owner of a 103 ZiPS ERA+ in 2011.

by dregarx on Jan 11, 2011 10:14 PM PST up reply actions  

This recent trend of articles like the ESPN one and one on NBC sports (http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/01/11/the-giants-are-going-to-have-some-problems-in-2011/) really make me angry. I get the impression that they are implying that the 2010 Giants just got lucky and weren’t very good, thus they won’t repeat their success or even make the playoffs. Have the other teams in our division improved? No. The Rockies and Dodgers are have made some shifts that amount to standing pat. The Padres lost their only good hitter, and the Dbacks will still suck. All of the improved teams in the NL are in the Central (Cubs, Brewers) and East (Phillies, Braves).

by EricW on Jan 11, 2011 2:58 PM PST reply actions  

we did get lucky

Thats not particularly controversial. Even the best team in the league might only be a 1/5 or so win the WS. And on paper we were not the best team in the league. A lot of other teams got better this offseason and we didnt.

Heres the catch though – the team you start the season with isnt the one you finish the season with. I love how the Giants for the 2nd year in a row seem to be building into their roster a lot of flexibility which will afford them opportunities to improve the team later in the year when the needs are more obvious and the acquisitions more impactful.

by Bochy's IT guy on Jan 11, 2011 3:44 PM PST up reply actions  

On paper we were the 5th best team in the league with 92 wins.

by EricW on Jan 11, 2011 5:14 PM PST up reply actions  

Did you know...

…that if you add team ERA+ and team OPS+, the Ginats were the best team in the NL last year?

There are some valid arguements in saying the Giants were the best team in the league last year even before you get to the end result.

That said, I do agree that it takes some good fortune to win the WS, even if you are the best team.

The thong is, it happened.

by Goofus on Jan 13, 2011 11:25 AM PST up reply actions  

Bah.

"Career potential: situational lefty." Situation: Ragnarok, bases loaded, Odin at the plate. You know who's getting the call.

-Adopted Giant: Dan Runzler

by Alex_Lewis on Jan 11, 2011 3:10 PM PST reply actions  

It's sort of like the Madden curse

Although it’s not really a curse. It’s just that when you’re at the top, your likely destination is down.

I mean, realistically, what type of chance do you think we have at winning the West? I’d say it should be an interesting battle with at least LA and COL, and there are quite a few people who think the Padres aren’t actually that much worse (small improvements in a number of areas to offset the loss of Gonzalez). Let’s just say that the Giants have a 30% chance to win the west and another 10% chance to win the WC (both pretty optimistic), so 4/10 total. Then, once in the playoffs, you have approximately a 1/8 shot. Total chance ~5%, with optimistic assumptions.

Juan "Doesn't Cheat The Game" Perez, future CF for the World Champion San Francisco Giants.

by marcello on Jan 11, 2011 3:20 PM PST reply actions  

Just go ahead and marry Rob Neyer/Dan Syzmborski if you love them so much.

"Career potential: situational lefty." Situation: Ragnarok, bases loaded, Odin at the plate. You know who's getting the call.

-Adopted Giant: Dan Runzler

by Alex_Lewis on Jan 11, 2011 3:29 PM PST up reply actions  

Yeah, optimistic would be 70 or 80 percent.

"Lee pitches...Renteria hits a high drive, deep left-center field, David Murphy going back, he's on the warning track—it is...go-one!"

by El Person on Jan 11, 2011 4:29 PM PST up reply actions  

You guys are really overstating our true talent level

And really understating Colorado, LA’s and SD’s. Possibly also failing to understand how probabilities work.

Juan "Doesn't Cheat The Game" Perez, future CF for the World Champion San Francisco Giants.

by marcello on Jan 11, 2011 6:53 PM PST up reply actions  

What’s our true talent level?

by BayLife5518 on Jan 12, 2011 11:34 AM PST up reply actions  

What’s LA’s and COL? How did you obtain 30% probability of winning the West? 10% WIld Card?

by BayLife5518 on Jan 12, 2011 11:35 AM PST up reply actions  

Estimates

Based on 4 teams with similar talent levels but giving us the slight edge. If you think we have even a 50% shot to win the west, then you’re basically saying the Giants are head and shoulders the class of the division. That’s just not true.

Juan "Doesn't Cheat The Game" Perez, future CF for the World Champion San Francisco Giants.

by marcello on Jan 12, 2011 11:49 AM PST up reply actions  

That's where I disagree with you

I don’t see us having 4 teams with basically the same talent level in our division. Last year we had a run differential of +114, San Diego was second with +84, Colorado is +53, and Los Angeles was -25. Even if you assume our team is going to regress, so will San Diego, so I still consider us the superior team. Los Angeles will probably be better but was not even in the same league as us last year. I see this as mainly a 2 team race with Los Angeles/San Diego having outside chances of taking it.

by zeisenbe on Jan 13, 2011 2:19 PM PST up reply actions  

50% was a number you came up with, not me

by zeisenbe on Jan 13, 2011 10:59 PM PST up reply actions  

Well, you said 30% is the opposite of optimistic

What do you think the chances are?

Juan "Doesn't Cheat The Game" Perez, future CF for the World Champion San Francisco Giants.

by marcello on Jan 14, 2011 8:28 AM PST up reply actions  

I think 30 % is pessimistic

40% might be realistic

and 50% or higher might be optimistic

by zeisenbe on Jan 14, 2011 11:52 AM PST up reply actions  

Bodog 2011 WS odds:

SFG…………12:1……15:1
COL ………..20:1……25:1
LAD…………28:1……35:1
SD…………..40:1……75:1
ARI………….80:1…..100:1

2nd column is from Vegas Insider….

not sure how to extrapolate that into division %‘s though and there’s probably been
only very light betting activity so far so the odds prob not “locked in” too well yet….

by repeat_in_2011 on Jan 11, 2011 5:39 PM PST up reply actions  

transferred over to percentages that Bodog line looks close to this:

SFG……..40%
COL……..24%
LAD……..17%
SD……….12%
ARI………..6%

that’s if you can go from WS line back to Division line….

by repeat_in_2011 on Jan 11, 2011 5:50 PM PST up reply actions  

How did you get that?

i tried to back out of a WS win and came up with them being a greater than 50% chance of winning the division, but I suck at math:

Giving them 50/50 odds in each post-season series, I started with:
8% winning WS
and got:
16,% winning NLCS,
32% winning Division Series
64% making the post-season

The thong is, it happened.

by Goofus on Jan 13, 2011 11:38 AM PST up reply actions  

no i don’t think you can do that because you won’t know who they’re playing in each of those series – they won’t be 50% chance of winning and the odds aren’t true enough because of the vigorish….and you introduce the wildcard by doing that and i don’t know how to calculate for the wildcard…

(i think you can extrapolate the WS odds back to division odds because the relative strengths of each team in the division are reflected…)

i just did this:

picked common denominator of 240(easy on all except LA, which i used a calculator for)
example for SFG at 12:1 odds, SFG would win 20 of 240, then COL at 20:1 would win 12 of 240, SD would win 6 of 240, ARIZ wins 3 of 240, LAD wins 8.57 of 240…..

so the numbers are 20, 12, 6, 3, and 8.57 and since i wanted a percentage the total needs to be 100…..if i add all those numbers up its 49.57(close enough to 50), so i just doubled every teams number to get their percentage odds….this should be good but if a stat expert disagrees please chime in….

one thing though on the odds, when they say for ex. the SFG are 12:1 i’m not sure if that means they are supposed to win 1 time in 12 or 1 time in 13….it could be 1 time in 13 and if that’s the case there’s a slight error but mostly irrelevant(2-3%) because my guess is these lines haven’t been bet much yet and that’s where the real error is for now…once they get more wagering on these then the lines will settle and won’t move too much…

by repeat_in_2011 on Jan 14, 2011 10:53 PM PST up reply actions  

on second thought

apologies, your way should work too….it’s just that the 64% sounds too high even though it includes the wildcard…

i think the reason is the vigorish – if they list the Giants at 12:1 then truer odds are more like 15:1, which is what, 6.2 to 6.6% chance of winning WS depending on if its 1 win in 15 or 1 win in 16…then when you double the numbers for each series you’d get making the post-season odds of more like 48-53%….

by repeat_in_2011 on Jan 14, 2011 11:06 PM PST up reply actions  

I Thought This Fanpost Was From GRM When I First Saw It

Brian Sabean strongly encourages you to disregard the drudgery of your employment responsibilities and join him in the consumption of spirituous libations.

by satyricrash on Jan 11, 2011 5:03 PM PST reply actions  

Or Typing Like This. The Above Does Not Have That Completely

Still the father of two-time Cy Young Award winner Tim Lincecum.
"Failure is not fatal, but failure to change might be." - John Wooden

by SFGuy on Jan 12, 2011 8:39 PM PST up reply actions  

IC...You Know The Rest

I'm a Giants Fan, but I'll always be rooting for Matt Downs
Where is Dan Burkhart going to play ?

by nvsfg on Jan 12, 2011 8:27 AM PST up reply actions  

Can we award the 'Longest Fanpost Title Of 2011' already, or do we actually have to wait the full year?

"The knowledge of the game is inversely proportional to the price of the seat." ---Bill Veeck. •Check out the new look of SFDugout.com

by BruteSentiment on Jan 11, 2011 10:54 PM PST reply actions  

Said it over there. I'll say it over here, too.

No fucking duh. As someone wisely pointed out, repeating is really goddamn hard. The Giants are not the late 90s Yankees, and they are not the Big Red Machine. We have great pitching and some potentially great pieces, but we are far from perfect.

I think we are still plenty good enough to have a decent shot at making the playoffs, but this year, as last year, it will take a good bit of luck to get us to the promised land.

Predicting that the Giants will not repeat is like predicting it will rain at least once next May. We have a lot of numbers that suggest that it’s a pretty safe bet.

Let’s get to October before we talk about the World Series. Remember, our opening day lineup last year included John Bowker, Mark DeRosa, and Bengie Molina. Aaron Rowand was our leadoff hitter. Pablo Sandoval was hitting third. Todd Wellemeyer was our fifth starter. We did not have Pat Burrell, Cody Ross, Jose Guillen, Javier Lopez, Ramon Ramirez, Santiago Casilla. We did not know when Buster Posey would be getting called up, or if he would play when he got here. And we did not know if Madison Bumgarner was ever going to get his fastball back.

It’s a long fucking season. Let’s just say we’re a good team, and hope for the best.

Et tu, Ribe?

by Solidarity on Jan 13, 2011 5:18 AM PST reply actions  

OK, I'll go first
Let’s just say we’re a good team, and hope for the best.

We’re a good team, and hope for the best.

The thong is, it happened.

by Goofus on Jan 13, 2011 11:44 AM PST up reply actions  

Comments For This Post Are Closed


User Tools

Welcome to the SB Nation blog about San Francisco Giants.
Yahoo_full_count

Manager

174246766_ea2fd78204_small Grant Brisbee

Moderators

Sbzito_small Natto

Fawlty_small WalrusMan

Goofus_small Goofus

Howtheyscoredcat_small howtheyscored

Det_7193_small jponry

Authors

09_small JT Jordan

Small steve S

E6dmccicon_small Every6thDay