Does anyone know the Super 2 rules?
I'm wondering if Posey avoids Super 2 status or if Sabean pulled another Lincecum again. Can anyone explain?
over 1 year ago
oldrips
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The top 17% of second year players in terms of service time are eligible for arbitration and called “Super Two’s”. Posey was left in the minors long enough so he’ll accrue his first full season of service time this season, which basically gives us another year of team control before he hits free agency, but short of him being sent back down to AAA, he appears to be headed towards Super Two status after the 2011 season.
So what was the point of leaving him in the minors so long this year if it wasn;t enough to avois him getting to Super 2? He could’ve been up and raking for us a lot earlier and had the same result.
Why isn't Sabean held accountable for leading the Giants into many years of mediocrity???
You’d have to ask Brian Sabean that. I don’t have a good answer and honestly have no clue. The whole thing didn’t make any sense to me.
by Missing Barry on Sep 14, 2010 8:08 PM PDT up reply actions
It bought the Giants an season of control over Posey. He’ll be a free agent after 2016 instead of 2015.
VAE PVTO DEVS FIO
Yeah, I think I said that initially, right? We didn’t need to leave him down as long as we did for that. And it didn’t make a whole lot of sense for us to give him service time last season just to get 17 PA’s. Kind of defeats the purpose. That’s really why I can’t really understand what we were doing with Posey, because whatever strategy it was….well, the way we handled him does not consistently fit that strategy. It was a mix and match assortment of contradictions.
by Missing Barry on Sep 15, 2010 6:51 AM PDT up reply actions
You said it initially, but then you ignored it in your next comment. And, thanks to that stupid September callup, they needed to keep him in the minors until (IIRC) May 20th.
VAE PVTO DEVS FIO
Actually there’s no way of knowing (at the time) exactly how long they needed to keep him in the minors, as it all depends on how many other rookies are brought up in the same year and whether or not they’re all up for good or go back down — or indeed whether Posey stayed up for good or was sent back down, which was a definite possibility at the time he was brought up. Fortunately he started hitting right away.
My Bucardo is better than yours.
A hot August weekday, before a small crowd, when the only thing at stake is the tissue-thin difference between a thing done well and a thing done ill. Insofar as the clutch hitter is not a sportswriter's myth, it is a vulgarity, like a writer who writes only for money.
That's for super 2.
We’re talking about the deadline for the extra season of team control, which is fairly cut and dry (assuming, of course, that Posey stayed in the majors permanently).
VAE PVTO DEVS FIO
He wasn’t ready to hit Major League pitching.
by Uncle Russel on Sep 14, 2010 9:05 PM PDT up reply actions
Read what Steve Decker said...
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by BruteSentiment on Sep 14, 2010 11:13 PM PDT up reply actions
lol ret-con
if he learned how to play catcher in two months in fresno, that doesn’t say much for what mlb catchers need to learn.
watching him throw out runners, actually be in position to block the plate from runners, and everything else makes abundantly clear that all that was the load of crap it sounded like at the time.
It’s not at all unreasonable to want to observe a young player in AAA before bringing him up. And a few months of focused attention to specific skills can be productive, especially at 22. He still has times where he has poor technique when he blocks balls.
Utter frustration and futility.
Adopted 'nephew' to the ever avuncular and always awesome Jon Miller
by Johnny Disaster on Sep 15, 2010 9:16 AM PDT up reply actions
i think they observed him last year
and his “poor technique” was still better than the other, larger, option even in april.
You do realize that even as it stands now, Buster Posey has the perhaps least professional experience of any catcher handed the every day job in the history of baseball? He was on the fastest track there is. Complaining that he wasn’t brought up even faster is slightly unreasonable.
And yes, Bengie was terrible. I would have preferred they sign another veteran as a half-year stopgap while they worked with and observed Buster in Fresno. But there is no team that is going to hand over the keys to the catching castle to a guy after 35 games in AAA. Ain’t gonna happen.
Not to mention that starting him in Fresno allowed them to moderate his catching workload so he isn’t as dead tired this September as he was last September.
Utter frustration and futility.
Adopted 'nephew' to the ever avuncular and always awesome Jon Miller
by Johnny Disaster on Sep 15, 2010 10:33 AM PDT up reply actions
you're right
instead they handed the “keys to the castle” to a guy with 82 games caught in aaa.
i never said he should have started last year or “been on the fastest track”. i said that pretending something changed between april 1 2010 and may 30 is dumb. and i agree that they should have had another real catcher, although now that he’s played so well.
how does catching in fresno make it less tiring than catching in sf, anyway?
He didn’t catch every day – in fact people around here were pretty upset about it. The luxury of AAA is that you can manage player development without the pressure to win every day that you have in the MLB.
If you actually think that a couple of months of focused work by a young player can have no discernible effect, I don’t know what to tell you.
Utter frustration and futility.
Adopted 'nephew' to the ever avuncular and always awesome Jon Miller
by Johnny Disaster on Sep 15, 2010 12:48 PM PDT up reply actions
/goes back to lurking, enjoying friendly tone of discussion of mcc
if you actually think he wasn’t a good catcher on april 1, i don’t know what to tell you either.
You do realize that even as it stands now, Buster Posey has the perhaps least professional experience of any catcher handed the every day job in the history of baseball?
you do realize that matt wieters had less professional experience? just to pick a name within the last year?
Not at all meaning to be unfriendly, but here goes…
Matt Wieters had 169 games in the minors, on April 1 Buster had 125. After playing in Fresno for a couple of months he now has 172 minor league games. They were both brought up in a historically fast manner, the biggest difference being that Wieters was not brought up and expected to immediately be the offensive cornerstone of a playoff team (the second being that Wieters has been a bit disappointing offensively).
He was a good catcher on April 1, but a bit unpolished and more importantly still a relatively unknown quantity. Generally, catchers have played at least 200 games in the minors before callup, which gives teams a large enough sample size to make what they consider reliable judgments about a player’s abilities on both sides of the ball. With a player as talented as Buster, being able to play wasn’t what I was worried about, it was letting him work on details in a less pressure-filled environment (and limiting workload so he can play through September for the first time).
Utter frustration and futility.
Adopted 'nephew' to the ever avuncular and always awesome Jon Miller
by Johnny Disaster on Sep 16, 2010 12:45 PM PDT up reply actions
Refining slightly: according to B-R, Wieters had 169 games in the minors, but only 120 as a catcher (I assume the rest were DH) but it doesn’t specify. Posey had 103 games as Catcher going into this season, and came to the majors with 135 games at C.
My Bucardo is better than yours.
A hot August weekday, before a small crowd, when the only thing at stake is the tissue-thin difference between a thing done well and a thing done ill. Insofar as the clutch hitter is not a sportswriter's myth, it is a vulgarity, like a writer who writes only for money.
The point was the extra year of team control. It seems the front office wasn’t especially worried about him being a Super 2.
GROUGTHINK ALERT
"You all are just blinded to reality by your hatred of Armando just as the Bonds haters are." -grm
Not to come of all Pollyanna about it, but I’m willing to extend the organization the courtesy to believe it was a baseball decision. Not necessarily a baseball decision (or decisions, as the whole 1B thing gets involved in it too) that I agreed with, but I think, coming off an offseason where the timing with Lincecum’s callup had just cost them $9 million, the FO comes off very believably when they say that they’re not factoring finances into these decisions.
My Bucardo is better than yours.
A hot August weekday, before a small crowd, when the only thing at stake is the tissue-thin difference between a thing done well and a thing done ill. Insofar as the clutch hitter is not a sportswriter's myth, it is a vulgarity, like a writer who writes only for money.
My feeling is if they were consistent with one strategy, even if it was a strategy I disagreed with, I could at least accept that they had a plan. It didn’t seem to me the way they handled Posey fit one strategy at all, though.
by Missing Barry on Sep 15, 2010 6:54 AM PDT up reply actions
Good God! MB, you want a plan, too? One that’s articulated AND stuck too? That’s asking a bit much of our FO isn’t it? I guess you’d have to say it was the classic Sabes: lightning in a bottle/see how many hands are raised/kick tires/throw it against the wall and see what sticks plan. Maybe he’s our own little GHWB: the Inbox GM, who just doesn’t do well with the Vision Thing.
My Bucardo is better than yours.
A hot August weekday, before a small crowd, when the only thing at stake is the tissue-thin difference between a thing done well and a thing done ill. Insofar as the clutch hitter is not a sportswriter's myth, it is a vulgarity, like a writer who writes only for money.
I guess I am being unreasonable, huh. ;)
by Missing Barry on Sep 15, 2010 8:17 AM PDT up reply actions
you mean
playing 1B to “rest” and catching in the bullpen for two weeks in 2009 isn’t a strategy? heretic.
The problem with this
Is that it’s impossible for a front office to articulate any plan that purposely leaves a player in the minors to avoid free agency or arbitration deadlines.
VAE PVTO DEVS FIO
It’s not so much articulating it that concerns me as much as making moves consistent with that plan. If Posey needed work at C, why the heck was he playing 1B in the majors instead of working on his C skills? Then once we traded Molina, all of a sudden he’s catching? What changed? If we’re so concerned with delaying his free agency, why did we bring him up in September to get all of 17 PA’s last year? Contradictions like that are what I’m talking about. But yes, I do agree with you that they can’t publicly say they’re intentionally leaving a guy down for service time reasons.
by Missing Barry on Sep 15, 2010 8:30 PM PDT up reply actions
Going back to my original conspiracy theory
I think there was a fundamental disagreement between Bochy and the front office. Either he wouldn’t sit Molina or the front office wouldn’t make him.
VAE PVTO DEVS FIO
see above
how dare you suggest he be rushed! tsk tsk.
Brian Sabean doesn't have a plan.
Lets stop calling for one, and ridiculing his lack of one :) , lets accept he sucks, and Bill Neukom thinks he’s a genius….
REPLY TO DONUT
by GovernorStephCurry on Sep 15, 2010 11:10 PM PDT up reply actions
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