minor lines 8/23/10
by steve S on Aug 23, 2010 10:42 PM PDT
in They Might Be Giants
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PrintHighlights from the Giants' farm: Ryan Cavan homered, and Justin Schumer had his second straight 5.0 scoreless IP start. Also notable, Zach Wheeler had 6 K and 1 ER in 4.0 IP.
AAA: Fresno defeated Colorado Springs 12-3
(after scoring eleven runs in the 6th inning)
Fresno: RF Eugenio Velez: 2 for 5, BB, 3 SO
Fresno: P Matt Yourkin: 2 for 3
Colorado Springs: C Michael McKenry: 2 for 4, HR, 2B
Fresno: SP Matt Yourkin: 5.0 IP, 7 H, 2 R, 2 ER, 1 BB, 4 K--1 HR
Despite scoring a dozen runs, the Grizzlies' box score is not overwhelming. Graham had three of their fourteen hits, which were all singles. Graham raised his AVG to .347 and had his 33rd SB. Yourkin was one of three other Grizzlies with a multi-hit evening. The Rockies' McKenry homered and doubled, lifting his OPS above .750 in his first PCL season.
Yourkin had an effective start, although he arguably lived dangerously with a 1/7 GO/FO line at altitude.
AA: Richmond lost to Reading 6-4 (10 innings)
Richmond: SS Ryan Lormand: 2 for 5, 2B, SO, E
Richmond: 1B Brandon Belt: 2 for 5, 2B
Richmond: LF Sharlon Schoop: 2 for 3, BB
Richmond: SP Mike MacDonald: 6.0 IP, 9 H, 4 R, 4 ER, 1 BB, 1 K
Richmond: RP Rafael Cova: 1.1 IP, 1 H, 2 R, 1 ER, 1 BB, 3 K
Schoop had his second straight game reaching base three times. Belt and Lormand also had two-hit games.
MacDonald allowed 4 ER, snapping his string of three straight quality starts. Cova struck out three of his six batters but allowed a couple runs in the 10th inning.
A+: San Jose defeated Stockton 6-5
(scoring a run in the bottom of the 9th inning)
San Jose: 2B Charlie Culberson: 2 for 4, BB, 2 SO
San Jose: SS Jose Flores: 3 for 5, SB
San Jose: SP Oliver Odle: 7.0 IP, 7 H, 3 R, 3 ER, 0 BB, 5 K--2 HB
Flores had three of the Giants' five hits, raising his AVG to .333. Culberson, the Giants' other middle infielder, was one three other Giants to reach base three times.
The stats suggest that Odle had his best start in over a month and a half. Since also allowing 1 ER in 7.0 IP on July 4th, he had allowed 4+ ER in seven of eight starts.
A-: Augusta lost to Lexington 8-6
(after leading 6-2 through six innings)
Augusta: 2B Ryan Cavan: 1 for 3, HR, BB, SO
Augusta: RF Ryan Lollis: 2 for 3, BB
Augusta: SP Zach Wheeler: 4.0 IP, 3 H, 1 R, 1 ER, 4 BB, 6 K
Augusta: RP Chris Wilson: 1.0 IP, 2 H, 3 R, 3 ER, 2 BB
Cavan had his 13th HR, lifting his SLG in 55 games since the SAL's all-star break in mid-June above .500. Lollis reached base three times.
Wheeler had his second straight start with 1 ER and 4 BB in 4.0 IP. Wilson allowed 3 ER, failing to convert his fourth save opportunity.
ssA: Salem-Keizer defeated Yakima 4-1
Salem-Keizer: 1B Carlos Quintana: 2 for 3, 3B, 2B, BB, SO
Salem-Keizer: SP Justin Schumer: 5.0 IP, 2 H, 0 R, 0 ER, 1 BB, 3 K
Salem-Keizer: RP Mario Rodriguez: 1.1 IP, 2 K
Quintana had his 1st triple and 7th double, lifting his SLG above .350.
Schumer had thrown 5.0 scoreless IP in both of his NWL starts. Rodriguez struck out two of his four batters. Not allowing an earned run, he got his ERA below 6.00.
R: Giants defeated Mariners 6-2
Scottsdale: 2B Carlos Willoughby: 1 for 3, 2B, 2 BB, SO
Scottsdale: RF Rafael Rodriguez: 2 for 3, BB, SO, SB
Scottsdale: SP Lorenzo Mendoza: 4.0 IP, 3 H, 2 R, 2 ER, 1 BB, 5 K
Scottsdale: RP Heath Hembree: 1.0 IP, 2 K
Raf-Rod and Willoughby both reached base three times. Raf-Rod's two singles raised his AVG to .288.
Mendoza allowed a couple earned runs but also had his second high strikeout total this season with 5 K. Through his first ten pro appearances, Hembree has 8 H, 0 BB, 1 R, and 20 K in 9.1 IP.
DSL: The Gigantes have a first round buy in the playoffs
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I admit I dont’ know much about Cavan, but he is on this report a lot. Is he legitimate?
Puking Orange and Black since 1981
Proud member of Sabean's "lunatic fringe" or in other words, "vast majority"
if he moved back to short maybe
otherwise no.
by OmahaGiants on Aug 23, 2010 11:25 PM PDT up reply actions
Any reason why he was moved off of short?
Aaron King is still my homeboy... iffy mechanics and all
McFAQ for all you newcomers out there.
Horrible range and glove
"There ain’t much to being a ballplayer, if you’re a ballplayer." - Honus Wagner
I see
How thin is the farm at short? It looks pretty bleak
Aaron King is still my homeboy... iffy mechanics and all
McFAQ for all you newcomers out there.
He’s essentially Dominguez without the tools. A 23 year old in Low A ball, with scads of errors and a .269/.342/.431 line. My first impression is meh.
On the other hand, a few years back Ryan Rohlinger was a 23 year old IF in Low A ball at Augusta putting up a .235/.335/.415 line, albeit with pretty exceptional defense, and now he’s…. he’s… well, he’s whatever it is that Rohlinger is.
My Bucardo is better than yours.
A hot August weekday, before a small crowd, when the only thing at stake is the tissue-thin difference between a thing done well and a thing done ill. Insofar as the clutch hitter is not a sportswriter's myth, it is a vulgarity, like a writer who writes only for money.
Cheap utility infielder
Aaron King is still my homeboy... iffy mechanics and all
McFAQ for all you newcomers out there.
1st Round Pick Gary Brown Makes his Pro Debut in AZL
Brown goes 1-4 on a ball up the middle, with a BB and a R.
Exclusive photos here AZGIANTS
I gotta say, I love that photo of Kickham there in the gallery. Awesome stuff, as usual.
"The knowledge of the game is inversely proportional to the price of the seat." ---Bill Veeck. •Check out the new look of SFDugout.com•
by BruteSentiment on Aug 24, 2010 12:08 AM PDT up reply actions
What's this?
A BB, maybe there is hope.
"There's not many things to do in a trailer park."
Giants Front Office....Torture!
by Giant Torture on Aug 24, 2010 7:21 AM PDT up reply actions
I don't believe it
According to the doubters and expert analysts Brown NEVER walks. It must be a misprint. I’ll notify milb.com and get them to fix it.
Seriously though, the circumstances of his walk was highly significant. Great situational hitting by Brown – he avoided the temptation to be the “hero” in his first pro game and took what the pitcher was giving him. The Giants were up 3-2 in the top of the 9th inning. Runners on 1st and 2nd with 1 out. Brown works a walk to load the bases. Carlos the Jackal comes up and proceeds to empty the bases by ripping a double to left center. Giants go up 6-2 and Heath Hmbree comes in to close the door in the bottom of the inning with 2 more Ks.
"There ain’t much to being a ballplayer, if you’re a ballplayer." - Honus Wagner
Speed kills
There was another great moment in the Scottsdale game last night involving Brown, that makes me hopeful for the future. The Giants had Brown batting leadoff and Carlos Willouoghby batting 2nd. The pressure that those 2 can place on the opposing team with their speed is tremendous. Sure enough, in the top of the 3rd inning, with 2 outs, Brown singled for his first pro hit. With Willoughby at the plate, Brown worried the opposing pitcher into a balk, and that was no rookie he was workig against. The pitcher was a veteran of 2 previous seasons in the minors who was on a rehab assignment. Willoughby was then able to feed off his nervousness to work a walk.
It’s fun to imagine what impact all of this speed potential could have in SF if it ever arrives.
"There ain’t much to being a ballplayer, if you’re a ballplayer." - Honus Wagner
.485 OBP
With .435 average and .485 OBP last year (If I recall right, I know those are close), I’ve been a little off on those “he doesn’t walk” opinions. When you’re on base that often, are coaches really going to try to get you to be more selective. He’ll have to adjust, but there is little evidence, in my mind, to think he is a Freddy Sanchez type hitter (and even Freddy has weeks where he walks often).
"A new day will dawn for those who stand long." - Led Zeppelin
by The Wisdom Cow on Aug 24, 2010 9:42 AM PDT up reply actions
Take a closer look
Most of the difference in his average and OBP comes from getting hit by pitches. It’s definitely a good sign and I hope I’m wrong, but call me crazy because one game in the AZL doesn’t calm my fears about his ability to draw a walk.
"There's not many things to do in a trailer park."
Giants Front Office....Torture!
by Giant Torture on Aug 24, 2010 1:04 PM PDT up reply actions
Looks good in the orange and black.
But I think that whoever taught Brandon Belt his new swing should do the same thing with Brown.
"Baseball is a game filled with moments of anticipation. The ones who can keep their calm while heading in to a storm can make their mark on a season. And what happens in those moments is what turns mere men… in to Giants."
My Son
Yeah
I don’t like his stance at all.
"He knocks a stake through the heart of the Cardinals! The Cardinals are dead! The Giants are going to the World Series!!!" -Jon Miller
t's Posey time!!
Screw you Flannery.
Gotta love me some small ball
Good lord, look at what the Grizzlies did in the 6th inning. 17 batters. 11 SINGLES. 2 walks. 11 runs. And a productive out. Not a single extra-base hit in the game, much less a huge inning.
Fresno Top 6th
• Matt Yourkin singles on a ground ball to right fielder Matt Miller.
• Emmanuel Burriss singles on a ground ball to left fielder Jay Payton. Matt Yourkin to 2nd.
• Eugenio Velez singles on a soft line drive to right fielder Matt Miller. Matt Yourkin to 3rd. Emmanuel Burriss to 2nd.
• Jesus Guzman out on a sacrifice fly to right fielder Matt Miller. Matt Yourkin scores.
• Brett Pill walks. Emmanuel Burriss to 3rd. Eugenio Velez to 2nd.
• Pitcher Change: Matt Wilhite replaces Kurt Birkins, batting 9th.
• Coaching visit to mound.
• Ryan Rohlinger singles on a soft line drive to left fielder Jay Payton. Emmanuel Burriss scores. Eugenio Velez to 3rd. Brett Pill to 2nd.
• Brock Bond singles on a line drive to right fielder Matt Miller. Eugenio Velez scores. Brett Pill to 3rd. Ryan Rohlinger to 2nd.
• Tyler Graham singles on a soft pop up to shortstop Chris Nelson. Brett Pill scores. Ryan Rohlinger to 3rd. Brock Bond to 2nd.
• Steve Holm lines out softly to second baseman Kazuo Matsui.
• Matt Yourkin singles on a ground ball to center fielder Cole Garner. Ryan Rohlinger scores. Brock Bond scores. Tyler Graham to 2nd.
• Pitcher Change: Scott Rice replaces Matt Wilhite, batting 9th.
• Coaching visit to mound.
• Emmanuel Burriss walks. Tyler Graham to 3rd. Matt Yourkin to 2nd.
• Eugenio Velez singles on a sharp ground ball to right fielder Matt Miller. Tyler Graham scores. Matt Yourkin scores. Emmanuel Burriss to 2nd.
• Jesus Guzman singles on a sharp ground ball to center fielder Cole Garner. Emmanuel Burriss scores. Eugenio Velez to 3rd.
• Brett Pill singles on a sharp line drive to center fielder Cole Garner. Eugenio Velez scores. Jesus Guzman to 2nd.
• Ryan Rohlinger singles on a line drive to left fielder Jay Payton. Jesus Guzman scores. Brett Pill to 2nd.
• Coaching visit to mound.
•*Brock Bond strikes out swinging. Wild pitch by pitcher Scott Rice. Brett Pill to 3rd. Ryan Rohlinger to 2nd. Brock Bond to 1st.
• Tyler Graham grounds out softly, catcher Michael McKenry to first baseman Brad Eldred.
It takes some talent to not hit any extra-base hits in Colorado Springs…but what a team rally that was.
"The knowledge of the game is inversely proportional to the price of the seat." ---Bill Veeck. •Check out the new look of SFDugout.com•
This was my thought as well
Mostly because of this though…
Emmanuel Burriss singles on a ground ball to left fielder Jay Payton. Matt Yourkin to 2nd.
Jay Payton is still playing baseball?
Adopted brother of Jason Jarvis who is stuck in the baseball purgatory called extended spring training.
And they left the bases loaded to boot.
"Buster Posey" anagram = OYSTER PUBES
by Stuttering John Tamargo on Aug 24, 2010 11:41 AM PDT up reply actions
Oh, and...
Belt is back at the top of the MiLB batting race at .361, as John Lindsey went 0-for-2 and his average dropped to .358. But going just 2-for-5 means Belt (.459) lost some ground on Kila Ka’aihue (.463) in the OBP race.
I wonder if Ka’aihue’s promotion will mean he won’t qualify for the OBP title at the end of the season?
I don’t know the official rules for the minors, but in the majors, a player needs to appear in 3.1 plate appearances per team game to qualify. For the 140-game Triple-A season, that’s 434 PA’s. Ka’aihue’s got 323 at-bats with 88 walks, putting him at 411 known PA’s. The question is, how many sacrifices or other PA’s? The minors don’t make those stats publicly known. So he’ll be close, but may not qualify.
"The knowledge of the game is inversely proportional to the price of the seat." ---Bill Veeck. •Check out the new look of SFDugout.com•
You gotta love a guy who goes 2 for 5 and lowers his obp.
Mark DeRosa is playing exactly the same amount of professional baseball as his adopted father, these days.
by oldjacket on Aug 24, 2010 8:08 AM PDT via mobile up reply actions
No, Bonds would go 3 for 5 and lower his OBP (at least in 2004).
Hector Sanchez: Underrated. Fighting body bias since the 2009 off season. I still love you, son, even if you're fat.
Just sit and ponder this for a second.
sorry the pic is small but you can still read it.
"He knocks a stake through the heart of the Cardinals! The Cardinals are dead! The Giants are going to the World Series!!!" -Jon Miller
t's Posey time!!
Screw you Flannery.
Plus
BABIP:
2001 – .266
2002 – .330
2003 – .304
2004 – .310
Home runs are fun.
Ain't no Posey like a Buster Posey cause a Buster Posey don't stop...hitting.
Giants baseball: We're stupid enough to do that (TM)
Baseball-Reference lists plate appearances
2.7 PA/game is what’s listed as the minimum to qualify for the Pacific Coast League according to MILB and I’m counting a 144 game season for the Grizzlies. According to my calculations, Tyler Graham needs 3.91 plate appearances per game over the final 14 games to qualify (not counting his 8 plate appearances in 2 Richmond games) for the PCL batting stats. He’s got a shot at qualifying for the top 10 in all of baseball if he plays every day and stays hot.
I think most of the leagues require 2.7 PA/game to qualify for their league titles, as nelson95 notes. But as far as I’m aware, there is no “official qualifying rules” for the minor leagues in toto. In fact, I don’t know if there’s even an official ruling body or administrative office of “Minor League Baseball” to create such rules. I think what you’re talking about Brute is just an amorphous, quasi-recognized “distinction” (like say, the Most Exceptional Pitcher or whatever it is that MiLB.com calls the guy with the lowest ERA in the minors) and as such, we can probably make up the rules that satisfy us.
My Bucardo is better than yours.
A hot August weekday, before a small crowd, when the only thing at stake is the tissue-thin difference between a thing done well and a thing done ill. Insofar as the clutch hitter is not a sportswriter's myth, it is a vulgarity, like a writer who writes only for money.
Most Spectacular Pitcher
I’m fine with amorphous, quasi-recognized distinctions like that. If he does do that, I don’t think it’ll ever be forgotten or not recognized by people here.
"The knowledge of the game is inversely proportional to the price of the seat." ---Bill Veeck. •Check out the new look of SFDugout.com•
by BruteSentiment on Aug 24, 2010 12:53 PM PDT up reply actions
Shall we start the “Brandon Belt for Hall of Fame” campaign yet. Too soon?
Jonathan Sanchez: Often maddening to watch, but capable of perfection on a moment's notice---just like his adoptive father.
Not at all
If we start it now and he goes on to a HOF career, we look like geniuses, and if he falters we just look over-eager, so I say start it now.
"There's not many things to do in a trailer park."
Giants Front Office....Torture!
by Giant Torture on Aug 24, 2010 7:23 AM PDT up reply actions
/starts making sculpture of Belt for AT&T Park
Aaron King is still my homeboy... iffy mechanics and all
McFAQ for all you newcomers out there.
Pffft, have you not been paying attention? Giants will trade him next year for an aging outfielder and a ham sammich.
I just can’t get my hopes up about minor leaguers. I enjoy going to the minor league games but I’m about at the point of total disconnect between the farm teams and the big club.
as opposed to getting an aging outfielder and a bologna sammich for Belt
now that would be a ripoff
by TimLaser and MattyC on Aug 24, 2010 11:24 AM PDT up reply actions
San Jose/Ryan Verdugo
While he allowed the tieing run to score in the top of the inning (unearned), Verdugo held Stockton from breaking it open in the eighth, then came back to retire the side in order in the ninth. This guy continues to produce solid results out of the bullpen without much press. His numbers are impressive.
Congrats to the Scottsdale Giants!
They became the first team in the AZL to clinch their division title last night (7game lead with 5 left to play). Chuckie Jones and the boys will be playing at least 1 extra gaime next week. They also have a 1.5 game lead over the Brewers for the best overall record in the league, so their magic number to assure home field throughout the playoffs is 5.
"There ain’t much to being a ballplayer, if you’re a ballplayer." - Honus Wagner
Sigh
Francisco Peguero got nailed for the 21st time this season in a stolen base attempt last night. That mkes him 38 out of 59, for a 64% success rate. That’s horrible for the level of competition he’s facing. Can somebody please get a memo to Bobby Evans that the Giants need a top-shelf roving baserunning coach for out farm system. Isn’t Dave Roberts available? Peguero is lightning quick and one of the fastest baerunners in all of the minors (not just in the Giants’ system). The only reason that he gets caught stealing so often is that he has no clue on how to set up and read a pitcher and when to take off for an attempt.
It’s not just Peguero, the problem is endemic throughout the system. Here’s the list of guys that are super quick and have plus footspeed, but have actually gotten worse stolen base results as they’ve progressed through our farm system:
JCP = 53% in 30 attempts
Eugenio Velez = 55% in 51 attempts
Chris Dominguez = 63% in 19 attempts
Adrianza = 69% in 42 attempts
Nick Liles = 69% in 35 attempts
Darren Ford = 71% in 52 attempts
The only consistently above-average base stealers in the system are guys that arrived fully-formed with little help from our coaches.
Jesus Galindo = 86% in 50 attempts in the DSL
Carlos Willoughby = 85% in 27 attempts in the AZL
Chris Lofton = 78% in 18 attempts in the NWL
Charlie Culberson= 77% in 30 attempts in the CAL
Culberson is a great example. He’s nowhere near as fast as his SJ teammates (JCP, Adrianza, and Peguero), but his basestealing numbers are head-and-shoulders ahead of all of them.
"There ain’t much to being a ballplayer, if you’re a ballplayer." - Honus Wagner
Isn’t Dave Roberts available?
No. One he is with the Pad’s, two he has lymphoma.
Overplayed memes:
EASTCOAST BIAS
2002 WS CANCELED
Blue Jays want all our player that we don't utilize correctly
by say hey nation on Aug 24, 2010 9:06 AM PDT up reply actions
I thought that I read somewhere a several months back that he had been able to fight that off with chemo?
How about Wille Mays, Felipe Alou, or Barry Bonds? Bonds would be great because he could also be a roving special batting coach.
"There ain’t much to being a ballplayer, if you’re a ballplayer." - Honus Wagner
Bonds won’t be with the Giants until Selig is out and/or the A’s have decided NOT to move to SJ.
Overplayed memes:
EASTCOAST BIAS
2002 WS CANCELED
Blue Jays want all our player that we don't utilize correctly
by say hey nation on Aug 24, 2010 9:14 AM PDT up reply actions
I saw a picture recently of Roberts at a golf tournament with Amy G and Rich Aurilia. Not saying that he’s available as a coach, but he seems to be doing well, which is good news. :)
Adopted Giant: Ryan Rohlinger (on loan from Shanghaijim).
Buster Posey: He knows the rules!
♥BARRY ZITO♥
Ben WIlshire is the new Dreamy Dan.
See and what's great with Belt
Is from what I heard he’s not necessarily super fast like Andres Torres fast, but he has decent speed and his success rate ( I think I read this somewhere) is due to the fact that he takes advantage of pitchers when they don’t pay attention to him and he knows how to get a good read of the pitcher and get a good jump which is awesome.
Brandon Belt is just awesome.
"He knocks a stake through the heart of the Cardinals! The Cardinals are dead! The Giants are going to the World Series!!!" -Jon Miller
t's Posey time!!
Screw you Flannery.
Culberson's rate surprised me
"I wanted to pick a Rockie. But I dislike the Rockies. They're not bona fide." — Jon Miller on the postgame wrap, 7/1/10
by Giant Fan in Singapore on Aug 24, 2010 9:41 AM PDT up reply actions
At one point not that long ago he had a success rate of about 77%. I wonder if he’s tiring a bit during the season, because he’s been caught a LOT since the All Star break. In his last 28 steal attempts his success rate is only 50% (14 of 28). Prior to that stretch he was 24 for 31 in SB attempts.
My Bucardo is better than yours.
A hot August weekday, before a small crowd, when the only thing at stake is the tissue-thin difference between a thing done well and a thing done ill. Insofar as the clutch hitter is not a sportswriter's myth, it is a vulgarity, like a writer who writes only for money.
More likely the opposing teams are catching on to the fact that if their pitchers just modify their approach a bit Peguero will usuallly just take off and run no matter what the pitcher is doing. Baseball is all about making adjustments, and somebody needs to teach Peguero how to incorporate them into his game (with the bat as well).
"There ain’t much to being a ballplayer, if you’re a ballplayer." - Honus Wagner
I’d add Brock Bond to a list of guys who need help with baserunning efficiency. He’s not fast, and you’d be talking about ten stolen bases or less a season, but for a guy whose best tool is getting on base, that would be helpful in increasing his value.
"The knowledge of the game is inversely proportional to the price of the seat." ---Bill Veeck. •Check out the new look of SFDugout.com•
by BruteSentiment on Aug 24, 2010 12:57 PM PDT up reply actions
Next year's minor league starting rotations
I’m already salivating thinking about the starting rotation that SJ will likely trot out to start the 2011 season. I guess it will look something like this (very nice and with lots of depth when compared to this year’s rotation):
Z. Wheeler
M. Kickham
J. Bucardo
S. Rosin
R. Roibal
other possibles: Mike Main, Chris Heston, Bryan Salsbury, Kelvin Marte, Kevin Couture, Austin Fleet
. .
. .
As for Augusta, we’ll most likely field a rotation of 5 very young (on opening day 3 will be 19 or younger, while Dunnington and Graham will be 20) and talented pitchers:
Edwin Escobar
Brandon Allen
Jacob Dunnington
Kendry Flores
Matt Graham
other possibles: Mark Christman, Justin Schumer, Lorenzo Mendoza, Armando Paniagua, Austin Fleet, Kevin Couture
. .
. .
Things don’t look so good for Richmond (or wherever our AA affiliate ends up) – I’m guessing:
Eric Surkamp
Craig Westcott
Justin Fitzgerald
Ari Ronick
Mike Main
other possibles: Felix Romero, Kyle Nicholson, Mike MacDonald
. .
. .
No apparent big league help coming from Fresno either:
Hacker,
Yourkin,
Sosa,
Tanner,
Mixon
other possibles: Daryl Maday, Felix Romero, Kevin Pucetas
"There ain’t much to being a ballplayer, if you’re a ballplayer." - Honus Wagner
should Wheeler be promoted?
I have been thinking that given his relatively few number of innings (49.2 at this point), that he should be held back to start the season. Obviously, he’s an elite arm and the team has incentive to move him as quickly as possible, but the question remains: has he developed enough to warrant promotion to SJ right out of the gate in 2011?
Neal before Zod!
Official Sponsor of the 1997 San Francisco Giants
by nostocksjustbonds on Aug 24, 2010 9:44 AM PDT up reply actions
Will he be promoted? His arm will have to fall off, or his fingernail will have to crack in half for him not to be promoted. He’s just too high-profile in the Giants’ braintrust minds not to get the free pass.
Should he be promoted? I would vote resoundingly in the affirmative. He needs to be challenged. This year he has done all that could be expected from him, except for the total innings pitched. He has made great strides in improving his mechanics. And. except for his BB-rate, he has better, or as good as, peripherals than all of the other high-profile HS pitchers in his class: Hobgood, Jacob Turner, Shelby Miller, Tyler Matzek, and Chad James.
"There ain’t much to being a ballplayer, if you’re a ballplayer." - Honus Wagner
I’ll add one more reason. Wheeler has already been able to successfully develop a new above-average secondary pitch this season. He’s learned how to throw a 2-seam “cut fastball” that has significant movement down and in to righthanded hitters (and sits in the 90-91 mph range). I believe that this pitch is the main reason why he has the great GO/AO ratio and why he has yet to give up a HR.
When you add the cutter to his plus FB and above-average slurve, in terms of pitching arsenal, he’s already way ahead of where Madbum was at the same stage of his pro career.
"There ain’t much to being a ballplayer, if you’re a ballplayer." - Honus Wagner
Usually a “cutter” from a right hander doesn’t beak down and in to a right handed batter. Typically that’s called a sinker or simply a two seam fastball.
The Giants don’t fare well against pitchers.
Tell that to Mariano Rivera – he throws that pitch about 70% of the time to righthanders. Of course, the other thing that makes him stand out is that he can also make his cutter break the other way when he wants to.
"There ain’t much to being a ballplayer, if you’re a ballplayer." - Honus Wagner
Youi’re right that in the vast majority of cases a cutter will break away from the hand that pitches it. However, a cutter can be thrown so that it breaks towards the other side of the plate as well. It just depends on the position of the ball in your grip, and on which finger you exert the most presure with.
That being said, I have no idea of the specific mechanics of how Wheeler is throwing his pitch, I just know that I’ve seen it tail towards the RH batter’s box, and that, in the (admittedly secondhand) report that I’ve seen, it was referred to as a 2-seamer and a cut FB, but not a sinker.
"There ain’t much to being a ballplayer, if you’re a ballplayer." - Honus Wagner
I think those are two different pitches
Cutter’s break toward the glove arm side while sinkers break/bend toward the pitching arm side. Halladay is the first person who comes to mind who throws both.
Aaron King is still my homeboy... iffy mechanics and all
McFAQ for all you newcomers out there.
Rivera throws that pitch about 80% of the time to everybody, and it always breaks away from RH and in on LH. That’s what Rivera’s pitch does, and that’s virtually always what cutters do.
My Bucardo is better than yours.
A hot August weekday, before a small crowd, when the only thing at stake is the tissue-thin difference between a thing done well and a thing done ill. Insofar as the clutch hitter is not a sportswriter's myth, it is a vulgarity, like a writer who writes only for money.
he’s already way ahead of where Madbum was at the same stage of his pro career
That’s a truly stunning statement. Bumgarner was able to a) throw nearly 100 more innings; b) put up an equivalent K/9 (10.4 comared to Wheeler’s 10.6) while having an a BB/K fully 4 times better (7.8 compared to 1.8), and c) manage a WHIP of less than 1.00 compared to Wheeler’s 1.5. All of which Bumgarner did at age 18 compared to Wheeler’s current age 20
I understand you’re suggesting that Wheeler has more pitches than Bumgarner did in his year in the Sally, but I think even that’s questionable. Bumgarner was throwing that slurvy pitch of his in the Sally, and the different grip of his fastball that moves away from RH rather than boring in (don’t know what that pitch is, but I saw him throw it in both the Sally and the EL). I know he got lowish marks for his offspeed stuff from some at the time, but it seems to me he kept on getting lowish marks for his pitching arsenal right up to the time that he started using that arsenal to retire major league hitters.
I understand you’re bullish on Wheeler, but there’s just no way of comparing him to Bumgarner that comes out in Wheeler’s favor. Just remember this and repeat as often as necessary: Bumgarner is less than a year older than Wheeler. Keep that in mind and you should have the appropriate perspective on their relative development curves.
My Bucardo is better than yours.
A hot August weekday, before a small crowd, when the only thing at stake is the tissue-thin difference between a thing done well and a thing done ill. Insofar as the clutch hitter is not a sportswriter's myth, it is a vulgarity, like a writer who writes only for money.
I am really happy we did not trade MadBum. Wheeler’s numbers this year have are really impressive, but I agree that they do not match what MadBum did in tha Sally in ‘08. They are better than Alderson’s numbers, but closer to Tim2 than MadBum. Wheeler has similar K/9 (~10), but higher BB/9 than MadBum (5.6 vs. 1.3). If you look at FIP, Wheeler and Alderson are very close (3.24 and 3.35, respectively) while MadBum’s was 2.13. What is very impressive about Wheeler is that he has not given up a single homerun all season. I think next year will tell us a lot. If he can improve his control, he will be very good.
I keep forgetting that MadBum is so freaking young
…and performing admirably so far.
"I wanted to pick a Rockie. But I dislike the Rockies. They're not bona fide." — Jon Miller on the postgame wrap, 7/1/10
by Giant Fan in Singapore on Aug 24, 2010 1:44 PM PDT up reply actions
quoted out of context
You conveniently cut out the beginning of that sentece,so that it totally lost it’s original meaning. Here’s the quote in context:
…in terms of pitching arsenal, he’s already way ahead of where Madbum was at the same stage of his pro career.
While there is no question that Madbum had results that were lightyears ahead of Wheeler’s (and just about every pitcher in the history of the SAL), that wasn’t my point. There is no question that during Madbum’s 2008 season in the SAL he was throwing 1 pitch (his 4 seam FB) around 90% of the time. He admitted it himself in several interviews. He also admitted that he would only throw his 2 other secondary pitches early in the count, and when there were no runners in scoring position. The other point you get wrong is to compare their ages. I didn’t state, or even imply, that they were pitching in the SAL at the same age. I did say, and this is certainly true, that they were at the point of their pro careers.
No matter what your age, as a starting pitcher you’re going to have to develop secondary pitches to succeed at the major league level. By madbum’s own admission, he didn’t really start doing this until the 2nd half of the 2009 season.
So, in comparison, at the end of his 1st pro season, and his 1st season in the SAL, Wheeler has 3 above-average pitches that he can, and does, throw anytime in the count – and he throws his secondary pitches for a signifcant percentage of his total pitch count. On the other hand, at the same point in the 2008 season, Madbum had 1 plus, plus pitch that he relied on for around 90% of his total pitch count. Advantage Wheeler. Now, this doesn’t mean that Wheeler will be a better pitcher than Madbum, or that he’ll even make it to the majors, it just means that he’s cleared a significant hurdle sooner in his pro career than Madbum did.
"There ain’t much to being a ballplayer, if you’re a ballplayer." - Honus Wagner
It wasn’t actually convenient, I meant to include the whole sentence and failed to do so. I noticed later that it looked like I was trying to decontextualize it and I’m sorry about that.
However, my feeling is pretty simple: it’s really an arsenal if you can’t throw the pitches for strikes. In about 90 fewer innings Wheeler has walked 11 MORE batters than Bumgarner did in his 2008 campaign. He may throw three pitches at any point in the count, but they aren’t that advanced if can’t command them any better than he’s doing.
As for age, you simply can’t talk about minor league development without accounting for it. One pitcher ends his first season in pro ball in Low A at age 20, a second ends his first season in pro ball in the same Low A league at age 18 — those two players aren’t at the same professional development because the “age” and particularly the “age relative to level” means more than the “amount of experience.”
My Bucardo is better than yours.
A hot August weekday, before a small crowd, when the only thing at stake is the tissue-thin difference between a thing done well and a thing done ill. Insofar as the clutch hitter is not a sportswriter's myth, it is a vulgarity, like a writer who writes only for money.
And one more failure: it’s really NOT an arsenal if you can’t throw the pitches for strikes.
Nice one, Rog, way to totally argue against yourself!
My Bucardo is better than yours.
A hot August weekday, before a small crowd, when the only thing at stake is the tissue-thin difference between a thing done well and a thing done ill. Insofar as the clutch hitter is not a sportswriter's myth, it is a vulgarity, like a writer who writes only for money.
I see what you’re saying, but some of your logic doesn’t register. Of course MadBum walked a boatload fewer batters in the SAL than Wheeler. He was basically only throwing the 1 pitch that he had plus command over. If Wheeler was throwing his FB 80-90% of the time I would bet that his BB rates would be similar to MadBum’s. The goal of the minor leagues is to develop yourself as a pitcher, not to keep up your incredible stats. The Giants did MadBum no favors by letting him use his FB so much in Augusta and SJ, and got really lucky that he was able to develop reliable secondary pitches in such a short time frame (less than a full season) in the upper minors.
I don’t know if you’ve read it, but the story going around recently about Tyler Matzek is that the Rockies told him not to throw is 2nd best pitch (curveball) more than a few times a game this season to concentrate on developing a 3rd pitch (his changeup) and 2-seam FB. That’s smart. I want my pitchers to struggle and learn how to throw several types of pitches in the lower minors while they have time and less pressure on them.
Finally, the age thing is true in general, but not in this specific case. When MadBum graduated from HS in 2007 he was 17 years old and didn’t turn 18 until that summer (August). He didn’t throw his first official pro pitch for the Giants until the following year, April 2008, when he was still 18. When Wheeler graduated from HS in 2009 he had just turned 19. He didn’t throw his first official pro pitch for the Giants until the following year, April 2010, and he turned 20 in May of 2010. They were both at the exact same point in their baseball careers when they pitched in Augusta. The only thing that the age difference signifies is that Wheeler would be more likely to have already reached his physical maturity while in Augusta.
"There ain’t much to being a ballplayer, if you’re a ballplayer." - Honus Wagner
The only thing that the age difference signifies is that Wheeler would be more likely to have already reached his physical maturity while in Augusta.
I think that’s the point Roger is trying to make, and saying that age relative to league is very, very important — in fact, much more important than relative professional experience in prospect evaluation. You seem to be underestimating the importance of the former and overestimating the importance of the latter, IMHO.
Of course, apologies in advance if I’m not understanding your position.
Hector Sanchez: Underrated. Fighting body bias since the 2009 off season. I still love you, son, even if you're fat.
Isn’t Sosa out of options next year? I think he has to be on the 25 man roster or clear waivers in order to play for Fresno.
Hector Sanchez: Underrated. Fighting body bias since the 2009 off season. I still love you, son, even if you're fat.
I don't think so
He was put on the 40-man after the 2008 season, which would mean he was optioned in 2009 and 2010. He should have at least one more option.
"I don’t think I’ve ever heard a louder chorus of boos than when the Dodgers made the third out of the ninth. It was awesome.." - Aubrey Huff
at this point it doesn’t look like he’ll be able to be a starter in the majors. Given his lack of strikeouts, however, I’m wondering if he’d even be a good bullpen arm.
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by nostocksjustbonds on Aug 24, 2010 2:16 PM PDT up reply actions
That's actually not a problem IMO
Our starting five are locked up for the next 2+ years (Sanchez goes the quickest without an extension, and he’s arguably the worst pitcher), so we’re not going to have to deal with any rotation battles and we’ll probably have a couple guys coming up right when Zito and Cain are departing, assuming Cain departs.
Ain't no Posey like a Buster Posey cause a Buster Posey don't stop...hitting.
Giants baseball: We're stupid enough to do that (TM)
Allow me to introduce you to the old saying: you can never have enough pitching. Because as Grant so rightly posted the other day, what happens is stuff. You may recall two years ago when the Red Sox stockpiled something like 8 starting pitchers in ST which was going to allow them to trade for needed depth and hitting at mid-season. But by the time they’d actually gotten to that point injury and performance attrition had affected them so badly they were actually trying to trade FOR pitching.
We’ve had a pretty magical spell of good health in our starting pitching lately, but it is pitching after all.
My Bucardo is better than yours.
A hot August weekday, before a small crowd, when the only thing at stake is the tissue-thin difference between a thing done well and a thing done ill. Insofar as the clutch hitter is not a sportswriter's myth, it is a vulgarity, like a writer who writes only for money.
maybe the real question is whether to attempt a big jump to the Eastern League—where the heavy air encourages him to work on pitches other than fastball. Cal League has so many games in the desert and hot parts of the Valley.
proud, yes I said proud, adoptive papa of "Geno" Eugenio Velez--
more game changing bunts than Buster Posey!
It’s an nice theory, but it will never happen. The weather in the EL is just too cold and umpredictable for them to want to chance it in the first month of the season. Remember how they held back both Alderson and MadBum for the first month of the season in 2009?
Althoiugh, if he were to set the league on fire for the first 6-10 weeks, I could definitely see them promoting him in May or June.
"There ain’t much to being a ballplayer, if you’re a ballplayer." - Honus Wagner
True
It depends on who our Eastern League affiliate is next season. If it’s Richmond, the weather is much warmer and more receptive.
But I doubt the Giants will skip him over San Jose. You don’t see many top prospects skip the south bay…they’ll either skip Augusta or Richmond.
"The knowledge of the game is inversely proportional to the price of the seat." ---Bill Veeck. •Check out the new look of SFDugout.com•
by BruteSentiment on Aug 24, 2010 1:00 PM PDT up reply actions
Don't you dare say that!
It will be Richmond, it will be Richmond. If I say it enough times will it make it come true? Also, I’m pretty sure it’ll be Richmond because I got an email last week about re-upping my season tickets for next year.
"There's not many things to do in a trailer park."
Giants Front Office....Torture!
by Giant Torture on Aug 24, 2010 1:07 PM PDT up reply actions
But re-upping your season tickets for the Richmond Flying Squirrels isn’t the same thing as re-upping your season tickets for the SF Giants AA team. As we can see here, there are 7 development contracts expiring this offseason in the Texas and Southern Leagues. If the Giants really do want to get out of the EL, this is the winter to do it.
My Bucardo is better than yours.
A hot August weekday, before a small crowd, when the only thing at stake is the tissue-thin difference between a thing done well and a thing done ill. Insofar as the clutch hitter is not a sportswriter's myth, it is a vulgarity, like a writer who writes only for money.
Any guesses as to the best possible landing spots?
"I wanted to pick a Rockie. But I dislike the Rockies. They're not bona fide." — Jon Miller on the postgame wrap, 7/1/10
by Giant Fan in Singapore on Aug 24, 2010 1:45 PM PDT up reply actions
I hope Montgomery
Because, hey, who doesn’t want to root for the Biscuits?
"I don’t think I’ve ever heard a louder chorus of boos than when the Dodgers made the third out of the ninth. It was awesome.." - Aubrey Huff
That's not funny
Living on the East Coast now has meant missing Giants baseball for the last few years, so don’t try to bring me down with your logic. It won’t happen, it won’t happen, it won’t happen…
"There's not many things to do in a trailer park."
Giants Front Office....Torture!
by Giant Torture on Aug 24, 2010 2:05 PM PDT up reply actions
Tell me about it. I remember the days when the best I could do was get the Giants’ game score from two days earlier in the morning Boston Globe. Now I can listen live to alot of their minor league teams’ games and watch the big club live 6 days a week all season long. I don’t know if it’s helped anything outside of the worlds of sports and porn, but count me as a technology fan!
My Bucardo is better than yours.
A hot August weekday, before a small crowd, when the only thing at stake is the tissue-thin difference between a thing done well and a thing done ill. Insofar as the clutch hitter is not a sportswriter's myth, it is a vulgarity, like a writer who writes only for money.
That's a 2-way street
The Giants have stated several times that they want to re-up with Richmond, the problem is that the Richmond owners are seriously thinking of switching to another team (most probably the Nationals).
"There ain’t much to being a ballplayer, if you’re a ballplayer." - Honus Wagner
Certainly Richmond is, on average, much warmer than Conn. in the first month of the season. But. the Squirrels don’t play all of their games at home. Since such a large percentage of the teams in the EL are in “cold weather” cities there’s almost no way for a Richmond starter to avoid a cold weather start or 2 in the first month.
"There ain’t much to being a ballplayer, if you’re a ballplayer." - Honus Wagner
Indeed, in the first week of the season I went to game where I near froze to death in Bowie, MD during a stretch of generally abnormally warm April weather (in fact, the rest of the weekend’s game were a delight). I did find it interesting that this spring was generally so unusually warm up and down the east coast (even New England had some historic highs in April and May) and yet the stats in the EL seemed to follow the same depressed offensive stats in the spring as happens in the more typical and frigid springs past.
My Bucardo is better than yours.
A hot August weekday, before a small crowd, when the only thing at stake is the tissue-thin difference between a thing done well and a thing done ill. Insofar as the clutch hitter is not a sportswriter's myth, it is a vulgarity, like a writer who writes only for money.
I just want to say that I'm giddy about next year's draft
I really hope the Giants don’t sign any Type-A free agent unless that player will put us over the top.
Aaron King is still my homeboy... iffy mechanics and all
McFAQ for all you newcomers out there.
Too bad we won’t be huge participants either way.
Jonathan Sanchez: Often maddening to watch, but capable of perfection on a moment's notice---just like his adoptive father.
Maybe BS can trade up?
"There ain’t much to being a ballplayer, if you’re a ballplayer." - Honus Wagner
How? It’s probably too late to acquire a future Type-A guy.
Jonathan Sanchez: Often maddening to watch, but capable of perfection on a moment's notice---just like his adoptive father.
Seriously though, as the Red Sox have shown for most of the past 5 years, a bold and imaginative draft director can do wonders even when drafting at the end of each round if they have access to sufficent funds.
"There ain’t much to being a ballplayer, if you’re a ballplayer." - Honus Wagner
For sure
There will be plenty of talent that leaks down from the top rounds.
Aaron King is still my homeboy... iffy mechanics and all
McFAQ for all you newcomers out there.
I don't want any type-A
Who aren’t named Werth or Crawford.
"Baseball is a game filled with moments of anticipation. The ones who can keep their calm while heading in to a storm can make their mark on a season. And what happens in those moments is what turns mere men… in to Giants."
My Son
I'd even say just Crawford
My mind ain't nuthin' but a total blank, I think I'll just stay here and draaank - Merle Haggard
by NuschlerFace on Aug 24, 2010 11:16 AM PDT up reply actions
Well
I think Werth will probably sign a contract very similar to Jason Bay’s, except that Werth is actually a lot better than Bay. I think he’d be a good get at that price.
"Baseball is a game filled with moments of anticipation. The ones who can keep their calm while heading in to a storm can make their mark on a season. And what happens in those moments is what turns mere men… in to Giants."
My Son
I'd love to have him
I just don’t think SF would be a consideration for him
My mind ain't nuthin' but a total blank, I think I'll just stay here and draaank - Merle Haggard
by NuschlerFace on Aug 24, 2010 12:33 PM PDT up reply actions
Charlie Culberson
Where has all the power gone? The last two months he’s been hitting a LOT of singles.
Hector Sanchez: Underrated. Fighting body bias since the 2009 off season. I still love you, son, even if you're fat.
power outage started after he sprained his wrist, I think
still had a couple of dingers afterward, but no more 2Bs
The money lies in the RBIs
-- Jeff Kent
It's his thumb
The wrist injury was to Belt. I’m not sure if Culby hurt his right or left thumb, but either one can seriously affect a hitter’s power and bat control. He missed about 6 games at the end of June and beginnig of July because of the thumb, and since he’s been back as a regular his power has been way down.
"There ain’t much to being a ballplayer, if you’re a ballplayer." - Honus Wagner
Thanks
Was hoping there was something to explain it.
Hector Sanchez: Underrated. Fighting body bias since the 2009 off season. I still love you, son, even if you're fat.
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