Why the Jose Guillen trade makes me sad
You might have noticed the 1,800 hysterical comments about Jose Guillen on the day of the trade. Now that some time has elapsed, it looks as if there was a whole lot of overreacting going on in that thread. The season didn’t end right there. Major League Baseball didn’t take away wins retroactively. The Giants traded for a player. He might do well, he might do poorly. We’ll see.
The reason for the overreaction, though, is simple. Jose Guillen isn’t good at baseball compared with the rest of the other players in the majors. Did you happen to watch him stretch a triple into a double yesterday? It was pretty impressive. He doesn’t have any range, he doesn’t run well, he doesn’t hit for average, and he doesn’t work the count or take walks. He’s already 34, so he isn’t going to suddenly figure this stuff out, either. His lone skill is that, on average, he can hit about two more home runs every month than Aaron Rowand or Travis Ishikawa would if they were given the same number of at-bats.
Is that worth the hit the Giants will take on defense or on the bases? Probably not. Your mileage may vary, but I’d wager that the Giants are a better team when Rowand or Ishikawa are in the lineup and on the field. The difference probably isn’t enough to get irate over. Guys get hot, guys get cold, and over the last month-and-a-half over the season, the difference will probably be negligible. The real reason for the freakout, though, is probably because we look at Guillen’s stat line and see that he hasn’t cracked a .315 on-base percentage in over three years. But the Giants’ front office looks at Guillen’s stat line, and sees this:

The heart starts racing. Mmmm, those are some sweet RBI. Man, imagine if he played for the Giants. Would have totally had all of those RBI! Oh, man, we’d be in first for sure. Those RBI just transfer right over, so now we have a big bat! Boch! Can you start this guy four or five days a week? (Ayup. Already on it.) Oh, man, he’s had his problems with authority before, but we’ll deal with that for a run producer. Mmmm. RBI. Oh, mama.
It’s so 1975, that it’s almost cute. But in 2010, just about everyone running a baseball team knows that RBI are a terrible way to evaluate hitters. It's Bengie Molina all over again. Guillen has 62 RBI this year; Rowand has 32. Well, that must mean that Guillen is a much better run producer with runners on base, right? Aaron Rowand has had 113 plate appearances with runners on base this season. Guillien has had 210. The Royals hit Guillen in the middle of the order, which maximized his RBI opportunities. He had nearly twice the plate appearances with runners on base than did Rowand, and, shock of shocks, he has nearly twice the RBI.
It’s insane for a team to think they can glean any sort of insight off of RBI alone. But I think the Giants are doing it. I don’t have proof. Sabean might be laughing about this post right now with the Giants’ in-house sabermatrician. But it’s the only explanation I can think of for why a team would want Jose Guillen. Heck, the Royals didn’t want him. Paid him to leave. Said, nope, not worth it. And somehow he can come to another team – one trying for the playoffs, no less – and start? It’s bizarre unless you pretend that RBI are useful indicators of anything when they’re completely stripped of context.
That’s what upset me. I pretty much knew all this already, but the Guillen trade was a cold bucket of wet reality to the face. Sabean loves using that bucket.
Now I’ll take questions from the audience.
Hey, the Giants are just hoping to catch lightning in a bottle, like they did with Pat Burrell and Joe Carter. Remember how awesome Joe Carter was? I’ll bet you hated that trade, but without Carter, the Giants probably don’t play a 163rd game.
Sure, Guillen could go all Joe Carter on the rest of the NL. He could also go all Ricky Ledee on the Giants. More importantly, though, is that he’s most likely to go Jose Guillen on everybody. Because he’s Jose Guillen. You can’t justify trading for Ruben Rivera right now and say, "Oh, but he could hit ten homers before the end of the season!" He’s still Ruben Rivera, and you have to assume he’ll hit like Ruben Rivera.
Big deal. Guillen was basically free. What’s the harm in seeing if he can get hot?
I’m thinking that Ruben Rivera could be had for the major league minimum right now. Basically free. What’s the harm in seeing if he can get hot? It’s a bit of a ridiculous comparison to keep bringing Rivera up – Guillen has actually had some good seasons in the majors – but I’m just trying to point out that it’s a little silly to hope that a player who hasn’t been good for three years will suddenly justify his acquisition and get hot. Maybe it will happen. I’m hoping it will happen. It’s just not likely.
Well, you’d hit like that if you were on the Royals, too. You can’t blame a guy for being affected by the losing atmosphere.
Uh, actually, I can blame a guy. What a lame excuse. We’ve watched some pretty bad baseball here in San Francisco over the past five years. At no point did I think, gee, it would be perfectly acceptable for Randy Winn to stop trying because the team is just so bad. I don’t think Guillen’s numbers suffered because the Royals stunk. But if they did, well, that’s not something that would support his acquisition. "Oh, it’s okay. He just isn’t hitting because he’s sensitive. Well, here’s a pressure-packed playoff race, Jose! Enjoy!"
Hey, don’t get on Sabean. He signed Huff when no one wanted him, remember, and look at how that worked out.
I’m thinking that Huff was signed because he had 85 RBI last year. If someone asks you how many state capitals there are, and you say "50. I know this because there are 25 states and two capitals in each," you got the right answer, but you used the wrong method.
I hope Guillen does well. I hope this post is something worth mocking five months from now. It just seems like the Giants didn’t learn from the poor offenses they built in the post-Bonds era. That’s why the Jose Guillen trade hurts, even if it isn’t likely to make a big difference.
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It makes you sad because that is your internalization of an emotion associated with the facts you laid out.
Why it was a stupid move is more about what you are describing. Perhaps if you had a different emotional make-up it would make
you anger. At least you did not mention despair.
I haven’t even read it yet, but OMG that graphic! WIN.
Adopted Giant: Ryan Rohlinger (on loan from Shanghaijim).
Buster Posey: He knows the rules!
♥BARRY ZITO♥
62 is glad to see you.
You can't solve your problems with the same level of thinking that created the problems - Albert Einstein to Brian Sabean
Hey, you went to Sturgis?
Giant Dirtbags: John Bowker, Steve Hammond, Brian Anderson.
Jeremy Affeldt induces strained obliques
by Giant among Angels on Aug 16, 2010 1:36 PM PDT up reply actions
A couple of times…but not recently.
You can't solve your problems with the same level of thinking that created the problems - Albert Einstein to Brian Sabean
Ah, thought I read somewhere that you went this year.
Giant Dirtbags: John Bowker, Steve Hammond, Brian Anderson.
Jeremy Affeldt induces strained obliques
by Giant among Angels on Aug 16, 2010 1:49 PM PDT up reply actions
I was there in 95 when Jerry Garcia died. I think I mentioned that in the hoopla surrounding the Dead day at PacT&T.
I rode about 100 miles last weekend up in Grass Valley/Nevada City and couldn’t believe we used to do 500 miles/day for a week or so straight.
/LOLD
You can't solve your problems with the same level of thinking that created the problems - Albert Einstein to Brian Sabean
LOL GIF
/continues reading
Giant Dirtbags: John Bowker, Steve Hammond, Brian Anderson.
Jeremy Affeldt induces strained obliques
by Giant among Angels on Aug 16, 2010 1:18 PM PDT reply actions
Sabean might be laughing about this post right now with the Giants’ in-house sabermatrician.
Is the in-house sabermatrician’s name “Susan”?
"I could hear the angry MCC cacophany in my head."--Oldjacket, 7/4/10
GOLDFARB!
He’s my son.
Q: Did you ever make an offer for Vladimir Guerrero?
Sabean: In a word: No. If we had signed Guerrero or [Gary] Sheffield, we would have been without [Long list of replacement level vets]—obviously not being able to field a competitive team, especially from an experience standpoint, given our level of spending.
No . . .
. . . they’ve got some poor devil who is actually supposed to do such things—I know because i spoke briefly with him a few months ago. He told me they do very careful evaluation, look at videotapes and all. But also numbers. Of some sort.
Professional baseball analyst since 1980.
I would hope they do a lot of video scouting
It’s tedious, but it really helps fill in the holes that you can’t fill with just numbers.
Aaron King is still my homeboy... iffy mechanics and all
McFAQ for all you newcomers out there.
I have to admit, I have a bit of skepticism for video scouting when you’re talking about veterans with a long track record. It should be able to see a decline faster than the stats will, and I could see it giving you insight into whether a guy was maybe playing hurt or less than 100% for some reason or not, but I’m just really not sure, in most cases, there’s much to be added from it. Guys end up playing to their talent level. If your sample size is big enough, you basically know what their talent level is…
by Missing Barry on Aug 16, 2010 9:02 PM PDT up reply actions
On a related note, here’s Tango’s take on the subject.
And this is a guy who’s been hired by multiple FO’s so actually has an inside view into organizations, in addition to his excellent stat work….
by Missing Barry on Aug 16, 2010 9:07 PM PDT up reply actions
That's true
I was thinking more about defense and xbh’s, especially in extreme pitchers/hitters parks (should’ve said all this originally).
I agree with you though regarding veterans.
Aaron King is still my homeboy... iffy mechanics and all
McFAQ for all you newcomers out there.
Should've added a part about younger players too
Aaron King is still my homeboy... iffy mechanics and all
McFAQ for all you newcomers out there.
Yeah I’d definitely have scouts do video work on defense to supplement whatever statistical metrics your organization has.
by Missing Barry on Aug 16, 2010 9:16 PM PDT up reply actions
Well, you’d hit like that if you were on the Royals, too. You can’t blame a guy for being affected by the losing atmosphere.
This is funny, because Huff was just saying that being on a crappy team made him want to play better because he only cared about his own numbers. What’s Guillen’s excuse?
Adopted Giant: Ryan Rohlinger (on loan from Shanghaijim).
Buster Posey: He knows the rules!
♥BARRY ZITO♥
I'll admit
I was initially opposed to the Huff signing because he seemed like someone who was or could be a clubhouse cancer, and kind of a douche-y personality. And I was glad to be completely, utterly wrong about him. If anything, it seems like Huff almost cares too much (see: destroying the water cooler in the dugout after hitting a ball as far as you can in a major league ballpark without having it be a home run).
It would be great if we were all wrong about Guillen as well, but the 10 different uniforms he’s worn seems to indicate otherwise.
"I could hear the angry MCC cacophany in my head."--Oldjacket, 7/4/10
I could see Huff being a douche on a losing team, esp. if he was hitting poorly and blaming the park.
A guy who is “fiery” in a good situation can easily become a “jackass” on a bad one. Just like good Zito is “quirky” and bad Zito “isn’t serious about baseball.”
VAE PVTO DEVS FIO
Huff has also said that playing on bad teams demoralized him and made him doubt if he even wanted to play baseball
I don’t think his play on bad teams affected his performance either way… I think he just played the way he played.
"Baseball is a game filled with moments of anticipation. The ones who can keep their calm while heading in to a storm can make their mark on a season. And what happens in those moments is what turns mere men… in to Giants."
My Son
Huff also said that he plays a lot harder on the Giants
because he has been stuck on bad teams and wants to go all out for this team.
Conclusion: It depends how a player decides to take it. If Guillen is truly excited to play for a winner, I think it’s a win for the Giants
My conclusion: If Guillen plays well and helps the Giants get to the playoffs, it’s a win for the Giants. No indication yet whether that will happen. His Molina-ness doesn’t give me too much confidence that it will.
Joe Mauer is from Minnesota. My adopted son, RHP Steve Edlefsen, is from Minnesota. Joe Mauer is very good at baseball. Call up Steve Edlefsen, Giants! Science™ is begging you.
but the argument is
even if he is “excited” to play for us, he’s still jose guillen. it’s not like huff is ridiculously outperforming to an extent that he never has before, he put up really good numbers in baltimore and tb a few seasons (over .900 OPS twice, career .820). guillen will not go on some magical tear even if because he wants to play for us. he is still a hack-happy hitter with no on base skills, no speed, and no abilities in the field.
by thebighead on Aug 16, 2010 1:37 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
I agree with this
but Huff is crazily outperforming the rest of his career this year. I don’t buy the “he’s excited” bullshit, but he is playing a LOT better than he ever has
Extremely proud adoptive parent of Paul E. Stanley, who's mind is currently elsewhere
Thanks to roger
I've never been happier to have Crabs
/mentions fantasy baseball team
He’s only two years removed from a .304/.360/.552 season. I’m not saying that he isn’t doing better than anyone thought he would this year, but his numbers are not completely out of proportion with his career.
not COMPLETELY, no.
but they’re quite a bit better. I guess I should have said outperforming his career and crazily outperforming expectations.
Extremely proud adoptive parent of Paul E. Stanley, who's mind is currently elsewhere
Thanks to roger
I've never been happier to have Crabs
/mentions fantasy baseball team
In reality . . .
. . . his improvement over career norms is almost entirely in his walks. Here are the actual numbers:
As I said, the only really notable deviation from his pro-rated career stats is his +21 walks (which about correspond, of course, to the -25 ABs).
AB H 2B 3B HR BB SF SH HB SO SB CS
2010: 420 124 28 4 20 61 6 0 6 58 5 0
proj: 445 126 27 2 19 40 4 0 4 64 2 2
diff: -25 -2 +1 +2 +1 +21 +2 0 +2 -6 +3 -2
Professional baseball analyst since 1980.
you've done this before
then I posted his OPS+ numbers and destroyed your argument. Not sure if you wanted me to do that again or not
Extremely proud adoptive parent of Paul E. Stanley, who's mind is currently elsewhere
Thanks to roger
I've never been happier to have Crabs
/mentions fantasy baseball team
?
But replacing 25 AB with 21 BB would increase his OPS. Probably by a lot.
"Being a McCoven is like being a member of the Green party. It’s powerlessness is part of the appeal." - oldjacket
"Quiet you, I'm starting a meme." - Me
"You can shake a dozen glove men out of a tree, but the bat separates the men from the boys." - Washington Senators First baseman Dale Long
Proud papa to: Bill Schlough, Senior Vice President and Chief Information Officer, aka the IT guy.
I have no idea in all the world . . .
. . . how you think any rate stats can “destroy” the sheer, simple fact that all his actual 2010 numbers except walks (and thus ABs, too) are almost exactly his career stats pro-rated to 2010 appearances. I did not understand when you said it before, and I do not understand it now. You pro-rate his career, you get a stat line, and except in two associated categores (“associated” in that they tend to add to a constant number) they are virtually identical; I say that except for those two—which is to say, except for increased walks totals) they are nearly identical. Do we need to quote the dictionary definitions of “identical” (or of “nearly”)? What is the problem here?
Of course his OPS is much higher: that happens when you substitute walks for outs. What I am saying is that his hits are essentially just as we would expect. If H/PA were a familiar measure instead of H/AB, it would be more obvious. Huff has traded in a good number of PAs in which he made out for PAs in which he took a walk; that is a major improvement. But it is not as if all facets of his game have gone to some new (and arguably unsustainable or otherwise freakish) level, and that is my point. It is in not swinging the bat that his improvement has come.
Professional baseball analyst since 1980.
um, ok
here was my point: his offensive production this year is out-performing his career numbers and vastly outperforming what we expected from him. That’s my point. And it’s correct. 21 more walks is a pretty huge deal, so it’s kind of ridiculous for you to say “well, his offense is totally the same, except he has 21 more walks”. That’s a pretty big deal.
His offense is better than anyone expected it to be. Just his career numbers would have been nice (considering he wasn’t anywhere NEAR them last season), but the fact that he’s out-performing even those is a pretty big deal, and I don’t understand why you insist on down-playing that.
Extremely proud adoptive parent of Paul E. Stanley, who's mind is currently elsewhere
Thanks to roger
I've never been happier to have Crabs
/mentions fantasy baseball team
And just for fun, again
2009 ISO .144
Career ISO .193
2010 ISO .229
2009 SLG .384
Career SLG .476
2010 SLG .524
Career BB% 8.2 %
2010 BB% 12.4
Before this year his career best WAR for an entire season was 4.6. This year (In AUGUST) his WAR is 4.5.
I just don’t understand how you can say this could have reasonably been expected based on his career numbers. In every way (especially defensively) he is doing better than he ever has in his career.
Extremely proud adoptive parent of Paul E. Stanley, who's mind is currently elsewhere
Thanks to roger
I've never been happier to have Crabs
/mentions fantasy baseball team
I don't.
I thought that Huff “as was” coming in was a decent acquisition—not outstanding, but decent. I now think he is performing excellently. But to read many posts hereabouts, not a few folks have the impression that he was bitten by a radioactive spider and is now doing all sorts of things wildly better than he has ever done, which those folks enjoy but which leaves them seriously worried about his ability to sustain his new super-duper levels; my point is that he was not bitten by a radioactive spider, he was—apparently—taken under the tutelage of a batting coach who emphasizes looking for pitches carefully and taking walks when you don’t get good ones.
The team as a whole is now 65 walks over expectations, and it is almost impossible to not believe that that is mainly or wholly Meulens’ influence. Excluding pitchers, the only players with walks numbers below their career projection are Rowand, Ishikawa, and Burrell, and in all three cases, it is by but 1 walk—so, in essence everybody is either the same or better, and in not a few cases much, much better. All credit to Huff (and the others likewise jumped in walks) for taking sound instruction. But please, no capes or masks needed. Nor fears that he cannot sustain these “impossible” and “unrepresentative” levels.
Professional baseball analyst since 1980.





















"Being a McCoven is like being a member of the Green party. It’s powerlessness is part of the appeal." - oldjacket
"Quiet you, I'm starting a meme." - Me
"You can shake a dozen glove men out of a tree, but the bat separates the men from the boys." - Washington Senators First baseman Dale Long
Proud papa to: Bill Schlough, Senior Vice President and Chief Information Officer, aka the IT guy.
Brian Sabean
Sabermetrics have nothing on my gut instincts!
by Rowand's Greatness on Aug 16, 2010 2:54 PM PDT up reply actions
Giants In House Sabermatrician

Proud Adoptive Parent of Jesus Guzman, RHP. 2010 Line: 0 H, 2 BB, 0.00 ERA. CALL HIM UP!
Bochy: What’s this fancy stat here?
IT Guy: That’s how often they get on base. I do not know why you keep asking me, I am here to fix your server.
by scout6 on Aug 16, 2010 1:21 PM PDT reply actions 7 recs
YEAH A LITTLE
Proud Adoptive Parent of Jesus Guzman, RHP. 2010 Line: 0 H, 2 BB, 0.00 ERA. CALL HIM UP!
Bochy: What’s this fancy stat here?
IT Guy: That’s how often they get on base. I do not know why you keep asking me, I am here to fix your server.
I mean
can’t you just imagine Sabean sitting his office talking to this puppet on his hand about “Oh-Beep” and “slug”?
Proud Adoptive Parent of Jesus Guzman, RHP. 2010 Line: 0 H, 2 BB, 0.00 ERA. CALL HIM UP!
Bochy: What’s this fancy stat here?
IT Guy: That’s how often they get on base. I do not know why you keep asking me, I am here to fix your server.
Michael Scott or Brian Sabean....same person.
There are 5 stages to grief which are…[reading from computer] Denial, Anger, Bargaining, Depression and Acceptance and right now, out there. They are all denying the fact that they’re sad and that’s hard and it’s making them all angry. And it is my job to get them all the way through to Acceptance and if not Acceptance then Depression… If I can get them depressed, then I’ll have done my job.
So optimistic I fart sunshine and rainbows.
Giants Front Office....Torture!
So optimistic I fart sunshine and rainbows.
Giants Front Office....Torture!
by Giant Torture on Aug 16, 2010 1:28 PM PDT up reply actions
One more time...

Michael Scott = Sabean
Stuffed Bear = Guillen
Jan = Grant
Why couldn't McCovey have hit the ball just three feet higher?
Conservatively dressed blogger is conservativey dressed.
You can't solve your problems with the same level of thinking that created the problems - Albert Einstein to Brian Sabean
Grant’s actually pretty hot underneath the corporate monkey suit.
Utter frustration and futility.
Adopted 'nephew' to the ever avuncular and always awesome Jon Miller
by Johnny Disaster on Aug 16, 2010 2:37 PM PDT up reply actions
Grant you whore!
Nice boob job though…
So optimistic I fart sunshine and rainbows.
Giants Front Office....Torture!
by Giant Torture on Aug 16, 2010 6:09 PM PDT up reply actions
I seriously don’t understand why he still has a job. The overwhelming evidence states that he’s an “old-school baseball” GM who, at this point, it’s safe to say blatantly ignores the emerging sabermetric consensus.
I’m not saying it’s the be all and end all, but shit, it would be great if he demonstrated some kind of understanding that there is a new, powerful way to evaluate baseball players that doesn’t revolve around batting average, RBIs and a fierce combination of grit and gamer-ness.
In theory that theory is correct
In reality the team is still owned by an old guy who wants nothing to do with your useless theory!
So optimistic I fart sunshine and rainbows.
Giants Front Office....Torture!
by Giant Torture on Aug 16, 2010 1:24 PM PDT up reply actions
And actually
It’s not even new…some form of it has been around for decades. So, instead of just being late to the sabermetric party, he is the old curmudgeon across the street waiting to turn the hose lose on some kids being too loud past 10PM.
Damn kids!
Totally agree, it’s been around since the 70’s and really started to gain acceptance in the late 80’s. Hell they’re making a movie about Billie Beane—not that I’m a fan—but that means enough time has transpired for someone to write a book and then for someone to turn said book in to a movie.
So optimistic I fart sunshine and rainbows.
Giants Front Office....Torture!
by Giant Torture on Aug 16, 2010 1:30 PM PDT up reply actions
Watching Guillen [trying to] run the bases yesterday destroyed any amount of hope I had for Guillen helping this team.
"Bengie Molina - the quintessential double play possibility." - Jon MIller
Likewise.
I mean, I guess I shouldn’t be all that mad, since the only reason, the ONLY reason the Giants can’t beat the Padres is because the Padres are just really, really, ridiculously good lucking.
Still i give him a pass on it, new to the team, attempted to stretch a double into a triple
His name is Bond, Brock Bond, and his adopted father? ME, any questions?
I think this comment has more to do with how ludicrously slow he is for being an outfielder rather than the mental process that told him it was a good idea to try for third.
Pat Burrell is also pretty slow as an outfielder…
His name is Bond, Brock Bond, and his adopted father? ME, any questions?
So it’s okay if 2/3 of the outfield is just like Pat Burrell, defensively? The whole roster? I recognize that you are trying to negate my negative assessment, but a team of Burrells would be a defensive disaster.
2/3rd's of the outfield is covered by Torres tho dude...
BUT WE HAVE HAD HUFF AND BURRELL in the outfield… altho huff is more athletic than Guillen
His name is Bond, Brock Bond, and his adopted father? ME, any questions?
Torres can cover the entire outfield, that’s what i’m getting at
His name is Bond, Brock Bond, and his adopted father? ME, any questions?
what about a bloopish double down the line ala posey in that cubs game
torres is a baller, but he can’t get to everything. guillen is a butcher in RF, i get minor seizures just thinking about him trying to play a ball off the brick wall.
he can get to anything
he’s a beast
His name is Bond, Brock Bond, and his adopted father? ME, any questions?
This line of reasoning actually bothers me. Torres is an excellent center fielder. But he’s not The Flash.
"I just struck out looking three times, but in any other ballpark those would have been home runs." - Aubrey Huff
by howtheyscored on Aug 16, 2010 1:54 PM PDT up reply actions
32. My age. SO OLD!
Adopted Giant: Ryan Rohlinger (on loan from Shanghaijim).
Buster Posey: He knows the rules!
♥BARRY ZITO♥
/over 50 dating link
Dearest, Susan - The Patron Saint of Patience
by Lars The Wanderer on Aug 16, 2010 1:56 PM PDT up reply actions
MARK GARDNER IS 47
Adopted Giant: Ryan Rohlinger (on loan from Shanghaijim).
Buster Posey: He knows the rules!
♥BARRY ZITO♥
I wish I was young enough to make fun of those over 40.
Utter frustration and futility.
Adopted 'nephew' to the ever avuncular and always awesome Jon Miller
by Johnny Disaster on Aug 16, 2010 1:58 PM PDT up reply actions
and looks good!
I was getting worried about him after his wife died — he lost a bunch of weight and was looking haggard, but now he’s back to his chubby, cheerful self.
Billy Hayes: His job is better than yours.
Yeah
That was a real shame.
So optimistic I fart sunshine and rainbows.
Giants Front Office....Torture!
by Giant Torture on Aug 16, 2010 1:59 PM PDT up reply actions
He’s chubby?
Wait, does that mean he’s not married? Too soon?
Adopted Giant: Ryan Rohlinger (on loan from Shanghaijim).
Buster Posey: He knows the rules!
♥BARRY ZITO♥
SWOOP!!
Dearest, Susan - The Patron Saint of Patience
by Lars The Wanderer on Aug 16, 2010 2:00 PM PDT up reply actions
i think he has a new lady. maybe they’re married, i can’t recall.
Billy Hayes: His job is better than yours.
So she’s a good cook?
Utter frustration and futility.
Adopted 'nephew' to the ever avuncular and always awesome Jon Miller
by Johnny Disaster on Aug 16, 2010 2:03 PM PDT up reply actions
HE IS NOT CHUBBY
Adopted Giant: Ryan Rohlinger (on loan from Shanghaijim).
Buster Posey: He knows the rules!
♥BARRY ZITO♥
LOL FAT
Dearest, Susan - The Patron Saint of Patience
by Lars The Wanderer on Aug 16, 2010 2:04 PM PDT up reply actions
Actually he is!
or he seems like it at times. I love to watch that guy play. Pure joy. I don’t think Guillen is as slow as he appeared to be. He hadn’t played much and kinds died about 5 feet from second. We shall see soon enough I guess.
For now – Philly is a good place for him to be. Not a huge outfield. I’m not that familiar with the Cards new park.
Well yeah. He drove the ball well, but he needs to know his own limits.
Giant Dirtbags: John Bowker, Steve Hammond, Brian Anderson.
Jeremy Affeldt induces strained obliques
by Giant among Angels on Aug 16, 2010 1:32 PM PDT up reply actions
WHAT THE HELL I JUST SAW THIS WHAT THE HELL WAS HE DOING IS THAT REALLY HIS TOP SPEED
by non sequitur on Aug 16, 2010 1:35 PM PDT up reply actions
It's hard to believe.
It was so shocking that I cannot believe it really is his speed, and have to imagine there was some issue with his legs. If that really is it, he is simply no longer a major-league ball player.
Professional baseball analyst since 1980.
At BtB, the following exchange took place between Giants fans and a Royals fan:
Just a heads up to Giants/NL West fans, just wait until you get to watch Jose Guillen play RF. I can’t think of anyone with less range than him. Heck, watching him try to run the bases is worth the price of admission.
I didn’t see/hear the game today, but apparently this aspect of Guillen’s game was on full display.
-sad Giants fan is sad
It was really bad. I was shocked to see how slow he was out of the box. He’s easily the slowest guy on the Giants now barring an injury.
After watching him for 2 1/2 years and he was on full display this year, I’m not surprised. It really is amazing isn’t it?
Doesn’t sound like a good sign to me. He really might be that slow….
by Missing Barry on Aug 16, 2010 8:52 PM PDT up reply actions
Frightening.
And where, then, is the value of all the in-person “scouting” Sabean’s troops are supposed to have done?
Professional baseball analyst since 1980.
This isn't new either
Mariners fans can attest to how bad he was back then. Now it’s year 3 after Seattle, with injuries throughout these years, so imagine how bad he must be right now.
Aaron King is still my homeboy... iffy mechanics and all
McFAQ for all you newcomers out there.
I’m not mad. I’m disappointed in you, Brian.
Utter frustration and futility.
Adopted 'nephew' to the ever avuncular and always awesome Jon Miller
by Johnny Disaster on Aug 16, 2010 1:24 PM PDT reply actions
I’m thinking that Huff was signed because he had 85 RBI last year. If someone asks you how many state capitals there are, and you say “50. I know this because there are 25 states and two capitals in each,” you got the right answer, but you used the wrong method.
Also we need to remember that Huff was Sabean’s 3rd choice. It is not like he was targeting him the entire offseason. His first two choices spurned him, so he went with door number three, the guy that agreed with him.
Sabean is to Huff as the blind squirrel is to the nut he found after chewing on two separate electrical wires.
Proud Adoptive Parent of Jesus Guzman, RHP. 2010 Line: 0 H, 2 BB, 0.00 ERA. CALL HIM UP!
Bochy: What’s this fancy stat here?
IT Guy: That’s how often they get on base. I do not know why you keep asking me, I am here to fix your server.
A thousand apologies, Grant
But this feels weak.
I don’t have proof
Much as we’d like to believe that this is an organization run by neanderthals (and amusing as the SUSAN! posts can be), I don’t buy it.
These are the same Giants who have an in-house proprietary system of advanced camera and digital technology to measure defensive range, and we’re accusing them of using RBI to evaluate hitters? I don’t buy it.
Here is what I think is far more likely: Brian Sabean and the Giants front office knows their audience.
Sabean signs Huff. People know that Sabean has spent the offseason looking for a “big bat!”, and they might be disappointed with the signing, since Huff isn’t exactly a big name.
So when Sabean goes on KNBR, he doesn’t say that he signed Huff because he was turned down by other 1Bs and thinks that Huff is a good rebound candidate who had an unlucky 09. He goes and talks about RBIs, because that’s what his audience understands.
With that said, I don’t like the Guillen trade. Frankly, I think Rowand is a better all-around baseball player, and a Rowand-Nate platoon would be my ideal option.
But Sabean saw an opportunity to buy low on a player who had success in the past. The true test will be to see what happens if Guillen continues to struggle.
"Baseball is a game filled with moments of anticipation. The ones who can keep their calm while heading in to a storm can make their mark on a season. And what happens in those moments is what turns mere men… in to Giants."
My Son
Some truth there
I think the Giants are ultra-concerned with how the fan-base will react, but I think it’s important to remember that Sabean is an old scout. I don’t think it’s that he necessarily over-values RBI’s or average as much as it is that he over-values scouting reports. If a few scouts saw Guillen and said, ’he’s still got a lot left in the tank’ Sabean is much more likely to run with that without consulting any type of statistic.
However, I would say that a lot of advanced statistics do tend to butt heads with scouting reports, a guy with an ugly swing that is productive and draws a lot of walks may be undervalued by scouts and overvalued by the Statz.
All that being said I still don’t think Sabean places much value in OPS or wOBA, as evidenced by his repeated need to sign Shawon Dunston.
So optimistic I fart sunshine and rainbows.
Giants Front Office....Torture!
by Giant Torture on Aug 16, 2010 1:35 PM PDT up reply actions
These are the same Giants who have an in-house proprietary system of advanced camera and digital technology to measure defensive range, and we’re accusing them of using RBI to evaluate hitters? I don’t buy it.
If I recall correctly, the cameras are from a local company who needed a park to test their system, and the Giants said, sure, we’ll take your data in exchange. I don’t think it was a mission from the Giants to go out and get all advanced and fancy.
For over a decade now, Sabean has routinely acquired players with sub-par OBP to hit in key spots in the lineup. So you’re thinking that he’s up to date on current player evaluation methods, but he acquires these players because of something else? Maybe some proprietary, cutting-edge player evaluation method that we’re not privy to? Given the choice between that and thinking that Sabean never really changed with the times, Occam and I will go with the latter.
by Grant Brisbee on Aug 16, 2010 1:36 PM PDT up reply actions
This Occam seems to have a razor sharp intellect
But the simplest answer is that given his background as a scout, he overvalues scouts opinions while undervaluing all other metrics used for valuing player’s ability. Including OPS and wOBA, but also RBI’s.
So optimistic I fart sunshine and rainbows.
Giants Front Office....Torture!
by Giant Torture on Aug 16, 2010 1:42 PM PDT up reply actions
Which players are you talking about?
Ray Durham had a pretty good OBP before he was signed by the Giants. Randy Winn’s was pretty good too when Sabean made that trade. Hell, Aaron Rowand had a career .343 OBP before he was signed by Sabean. Sure, Molina wasn’t exactly a paragon of plate discipline, but high-OBP catchers are, you know, rare. And Molina was a good hitter for a catcher until this year.
For my money, the simplest explanation is not the one that involves assuming that a major league general manager knows so little about baseball that he uses RBI to evaluate hitters. That seems ridiculous.
"Baseball is a game filled with moments of anticipation. The ones who can keep their calm while heading in to a storm can make their mark on a season. And what happens in those moments is what turns mere men… in to Giants."
My Son
Jose Guillen
Freddy Sanchez
Bengie Molina
Juan Uribe
Jose Castillo
Pedro Feliz
Shea Hillenbrand
Jose Vizcaino
AJ Pierzynski
Deivi Cruz
Neifi Perez
Benito Santiago
Shawon Dunston
Jose Vizcaino
The Giants don’t fare well against pitchers.
I don't mean to be the douche who picks one part of an argument out to focus on
But are you really saying Benito Santiago was a bad acquisition?
"Baseball is a game filled with moments of anticipation. The ones who can keep their calm while heading in to a storm can make their mark on a season. And what happens in those moments is what turns mere men… in to Giants."
My Son
Also
Molina wasn’t all bad, just 2010 bad and hitting cleanup bad.
So optimistic I fart sunshine and rainbows.
Giants Front Office....Torture!
by Giant Torture on Aug 16, 2010 2:09 PM PDT up reply actions
a lot of those guys were good acquisitions. Sabean-metrics doesn’t always lead to the wrong acquisition.
Mark DeRosa is playing exactly the same amount of professional baseball as his adopted father, these days.
Yet
This goes back to Grant’s point about just because you came to the right answer, doesn’t mean you came to the right answer the right way
that’s exactly right.
Mark DeRosa is playing exactly the same amount of professional baseball as his adopted father, these days.
But the point is
You don’t know Sabean’s methods.
So, essentially, what is happening here is people blaming Sabean for what they THINK, but do not know, are his methods.
Madness.
"Baseball is a game filled with moments of anticipation. The ones who can keep their calm while heading in to a storm can make their mark on a season. And what happens in those moments is what turns mere men… in to Giants."
My Son
Well, there’s a decent enough reason to believe he uses old-school methods.
``Don’t give me all that sabermetric crap…. It gives me a headache.’’
It’s not like we’re saying his thetans are telling him to do things and then using that to get upset.
I’ll give you Durham, and I’m not saying that every acquisition has a low OBP. But there are guys he’s thought could be middle-of-the-order types — Rowand, Hillenbrand, Guillen — it seems as if he thought that their power or run producing can make up for the low OBP.
And you’re basically saying that if we don’t know the exact methods of a player’s acquisition, we can’t evaluate the GM. I’d be out of a non-paying job. Think about the family that doesn’t need this blog to not put food on their table! Think about the children!
by Grant Brisbee on Aug 16, 2010 2:28 PM PDT up reply actions
Midichlorians
Dearest, Susan - The Patron Saint of Patience
by Lars The Wanderer on Aug 16, 2010 2:29 PM PDT up reply actions
I just watched part of an hour long panel Jon Stewart did with George Lucas. Lucas, man, he’s got some real disconnects on a few things, but he’s also a really funny dude.
"I just struck out looking three times, but in any other ballpark those would have been home runs." - Aubrey Huff
by howtheyscored on Aug 16, 2010 2:33 PM PDT up reply actions
Link? More info on said panel?
Utter frustration and futility.
Adopted 'nephew' to the ever avuncular and always awesome Jon Miller
by Johnny Disaster on Aug 16, 2010 2:37 PM PDT up reply actions
It can be seen here:
"I just struck out looking three times, but in any other ballpark those would have been home runs." - Aubrey Huff
by howtheyscored on Aug 16, 2010 2:38 PM PDT up reply actions
Much obliged, kind sir.
Utter frustration and futility.
Adopted 'nephew' to the ever avuncular and always awesome Jon Miller
by Johnny Disaster on Aug 16, 2010 2:43 PM PDT up reply actions
I do think he’s put a higher value on OBP in the present than he used to.
by Missing Barry on Aug 16, 2010 2:31 PM PDT up reply actions
I do as well. Additionally, I think there is evidence in his recent acquisitions to suspect that the above quote, which was from 2000, is no longer relevant. I know that I said a lot of shit 10 years ago that I would like to take back. For example, “Hey, this George Bush Jr. guy might be pretty damned good!”
But what the hell do I know? I still think he should be fired.
by FireBrianSabean on Aug 16, 2010 2:45 PM PDT up reply actions
there was also this
From an interview during ST.. . Barbieri asked DSabean who the second best hitter was on the Giants, after Sandoval. Sabean replied, without hesitation that it was Molina.
Now I was not at this point the Aubrey Huff believer that I am now. But I remember being shocked at that. Surely if Huff even had half of a rebound back to his career numbers (something which I hope the man who signed him would believe), he was going to far outhit Bengie. Provided, of course that you don’t massively discount OBP.
Mark DeRosa is playing exactly the same amount of professional baseball as his adopted father, these days.
You know Bengie would have cried if Sabean didn’t say it was him, though….
by Missing Barry on Aug 16, 2010 2:37 PM PDT up reply actions
Sabes and Freddy
after last season Sabean implied that Freddy Sanchez had played well when healthy for the Giants. The only way one could argue that is if they only looked at batting average and completely ignored OBP.
Sabean said when Sanchez was healthy, “he certainly played up to our scouting reports and expectations. It’s unfortunate he ran into not being able to stay on the field, because he really would have helped the ballclub.”
Freddy’s numbers last year: .284/.295/.324
The Giants don’t fare well against pitchers.
He was worth .7 WAEB
Wins Above Emmanuel Burriss
And Freddy’s WAR totals were pretty OK for a few seasons back before Sabean scquired him.
"Baseball is a game filled with moments of anticipation. The ones who can keep their calm while heading in to a storm can make their mark on a season. And what happens in those moments is what turns mere men… in to Giants."
My Son
And FWIW
Sabean seems to understand this issue intensely: so much so that he went out and got Freddy a platoon partner which should increase our 2B production.
"Baseball is a game filled with moments of anticipation. The ones who can keep their calm while heading in to a storm can make their mark on a season. And what happens in those moments is what turns mere men… in to Giants."
My Son
Quotes from 2000 aren't great indicators of current mindset
And of course I’m not saying that you can’t try to evaluate a GM without knowing his exact methodology.
I’m just saying that you can’tjudge a GM based on what you think his methods are when the actual evidence is much murkier on the subject – again I bring up Nick Johnson, a player whom your charicature of the ignorant Sabean would have absolutely no business pursuing.
And, FWIW, a great slugger can compensate for a low OBP if he’s a good hitter. Sure, a guy who hits .280/.310/.500 might not be high OBP, but he’d be nice to have around all the same.
"Baseball is a game filled with moments of anticipation. The ones who can keep their calm while heading in to a storm can make their mark on a season. And what happens in those moments is what turns mere men… in to Giants."
My Son
I’m just saying that you can’t judge a GM based on what you think his methods are when the actual evidence is much murkier on the subject
But you can’t use his quotes because you think they’re PR. You just have to assume he’s reading Bill James books on the can and form opinions only on that. I’m not comfortable with that.
again I bring up Nick Johnson, a player whom your caricature of the ignorant Sabean would have absolutely no business pursuing.
I’m not saying that he has never once paid attention to OBP. He’s referenced it in the past, saying that he knows the Giants need to improve in that area. That doesn’t mean that he values it as much as maybe he should. But this whole post boils down to this: if you don’t look pay attention to RBI, there’s no reason to want Jose Guillen starting for your team right now. Right? How can you argue for Guillen without using RBI?
by Grant Brisbee on Aug 16, 2010 2:58 PM PDT up reply actions
“And, FWIW, a great slugger can compensate for a low OBP if he’s a good hitter. Sure, a guy who hits .280/.310/.500 might not be high OBP, but he’d be nice to have around all the same.”
Sure.
But then use linear weights so you don’t have to get confused on what to value
"Being a McCoven is like being a member of the Green party. It’s powerlessness is part of the appeal." - oldjacket
"Quiet you, I'm starting a meme." - Me
"You can shake a dozen glove men out of a tree, but the bat separates the men from the boys." - Washington Senators First baseman Dale Long
Proud papa to: Bill Schlough, Senior Vice President and Chief Information Officer, aka the IT guy.
my first question when I hear
“Player X has a low OBP!!!!” is “what’s his wOBA/wRC+?”
Sharlon Schoop - de favoriete Nederlandse honkbalspeler van McCovey Chronicles.
You always have to be one step ahead of your drunk friends
--Daisy Owl
How is that last word pronounced?
Utter frustration and futility.
Adopted 'nephew' to the ever avuncular and always awesome Jon Miller
by Johnny Disaster on Aug 16, 2010 3:04 PM PDT up reply actions
The plus is silent?
Utter frustration and futility.
Adopted 'nephew' to the ever avuncular and always awesome Jon Miller
by Johnny Disaster on Aug 16, 2010 3:09 PM PDT up reply actions
I shall do so ostentatiously.
Utter frustration and futility.
Adopted 'nephew' to the ever avuncular and always awesome Jon Miller
by Johnny Disaster on Aug 16, 2010 3:11 PM PDT up reply actions
But you have to purse your lips all snooty like when you say it.
Dearest, Susan - The Patron Saint of Patience
by Lars The Wanderer on Aug 16, 2010 3:12 PM PDT up reply actions
I will try and remember this.
Utter frustration and futility.
Adopted 'nephew' to the ever avuncular and always awesome Jon Miller
by Johnny Disaster on Aug 16, 2010 3:12 PM PDT up reply actions
I pronounce the letters. w-R-C-+. w-O-B-A….
by Missing Barry on Aug 16, 2010 3:09 PM PDT up reply actions
It's ironic
That quote was attributed to Sabean in 2000, the same year the Giants wound up third in MLB in OPS.
"Mike Laga will make you forget about every power hitter that ever lived." - Sparky Anderson
Well think about it:
A lot of players with good analytic stats will also have dingers and ribeyez—it’s scarcely as if the things are mutually exclusive. Go by traditional methods and as often as not you’ll get a good player, else those methods would not have become traditional. Think of if (for those of you into such stuff) as a Venn diagrams: there will be a pretty fair amount of overlap. It’s the men not in the overlap area that are the concern, whichever circle they’re in (which is why Brock Bond will probably never get a fair chance).
Professional baseball analyst since 1980.
This is a good summary.
"Being a McCoven is like being a member of the Green party. It’s powerlessness is part of the appeal." - oldjacket
"Quiet you, I'm starting a meme." - Me
"You can shake a dozen glove men out of a tree, but the bat separates the men from the boys." - Washington Senators First baseman Dale Long
Proud papa to: Bill Schlough, Senior Vice President and Chief Information Officer, aka the IT guy.
Indeed. It’s not as if success was invented with SABR. These new methods are more closely correlated with future success, which is obviously a critical factor. But the traditional numbers can still be meaningful, at least as quantitative measures of success at the highest level.
"Mike Laga will make you forget about every power hitter that ever lived." - Sparky Anderson
I mean, baseball is a 0 sum game, no matter how you evaluate things someone’s going to win and someone’s going to lose! I dunno, I’m not sure what “traditional numbers” you’re talking about, but I do legitimately believe most of them don’t add any value beyond what the better stuff we have now tell us…..
by Missing Barry on Aug 17, 2010 5:13 PM PDT up reply actions
Juan Uribe
Needs to be removed from that list, lest you lose all credibility for this argument. For what the Giants paid for him, he’s been great. Remember, he was originally signed to a minor league deal. 2.8 WAR in ‘09 and 2.1 WAR this year isn’t too bad for a guy originally signed to a minor league deal.
So optimistic I fart sunshine and rainbows.
Giants Front Office....Torture!
by Giant Torture on Aug 16, 2010 2:11 PM PDT up reply actions
Minor League Deal
It’s not like Sabean spent 126 million on him, it was a minor league deal to see if he could be a utility infielder.
So optimistic I fart sunshine and rainbows.
Giants Front Office....Torture!
by Giant Torture on Aug 16, 2010 2:16 PM PDT up reply actions
I’m not arguing that the Uribe deal hasn’t worked out. I’m saying that he had a bad OBP when the Giants acquired him.
The Giants don’t fare well against pitchers.
It's actually more than a little fair to say the Giants "acquired" him or "targetted" him
It was a minor league contract, which is the kind of thing GMs all around the league give out like candy to any player who’s ever had one good season, as Uribe had.
"Baseball is a game filled with moments of anticipation. The ones who can keep their calm while heading in to a storm can make their mark on a season. And what happens in those moments is what turns mere men… in to Giants."
My Son
Originally we were talking about players that Sabean acquired to hit in the middle of the lineup
Not guys that the Giants took fliers on. The Giants took a flier on Uribe and it worked, but I don’t think his OBP has much to do with them taking a flier on the guy. Not to mention that he’s a SS, so a .295 OBP isn’t awful if he can play defense or in his case play multiple positions.
So optimistic I fart sunshine and rainbows.
Giants Front Office....Torture!
by Giant Torture on Aug 16, 2010 2:23 PM PDT up reply actions
For over a decade now, Sabean has routinely acquired players with sub-par OBP to hit in key spots in the lineup.
You’re right that he wasn’t signed to be a key player, though he’s turned into that. But Pete’s right that he’s had a sub-par OBP.
I'm thinking but nothing's happening.
Sub-par OBP for a SS?
While I don’t think his OBP was anything to write home about, it wasn’t bad for a SS.
So optimistic I fart sunshine and rainbows.
Giants Front Office....Torture!
by Giant Torture on Aug 16, 2010 2:24 PM PDT up reply actions
True. But isn’t it fairly sub-par for a guy hitting in a key spot in the lineup?
You’re right, he isn’t a low-OBP guy who was acquired to hit in a key spot in the lineup. He was a low-OBP guy who had a flier taken out on him, then was extended an offer later in the offseason to be middle infield depth. Hardly a signing to complain about.
But as soon as he’s a guy hitting in the middle of the order, but who has a really tough time protecting outs, I think there can be a legitimate beef with HOW he’s used. Not so much about the signing, though.
I'm thinking but nothing's happening.
I agree
And how players are used is a whole ’nother conversation that once Bork is involved could cause the Internet to crash if given the proper depth and breadth it deserves.
So optimistic I fart sunshine and rainbows.
Giants Front Office....Torture!
by Giant Torture on Aug 16, 2010 2:29 PM PDT up reply actions
I suggest . . .
. . . you look up better-hitting shortstops (and catchers). A poor OBP reflects a poor batter. There are plenty enough good ones at any position—the thing is to be able to identify them.
Professional baseball analyst since 1980.
Also
The year before his OBP was about 50 points above his average, pretty respectable for a SS with power.
So optimistic I fart sunshine and rainbows.
Giants Front Office....Torture!
by Giant Torture on Aug 16, 2010 2:25 PM PDT up reply actions
if you pick batters
based on batting average and RBIs, sometimes you will get ones with high OBPs.
When this .sig was awaiting the Final Sabean Apocalypse, I never once in a million years suspected it would be a "good" Apocalypse. Bengie... Don't let the door hit you IN YOUR GIANT ASS on the way out!
-------
PARPG- Indy post-apocalyptic roleplaying game totally stalled and basically dead at this point
As proof
Everyone knows one thing about this off-season: Brian Sabean’s first choice was Nick Johnson. If Sabean were truly the troglodyte you’re accusing him of being, this would make absolutely no sense. Johnson has never had a lot of home runs, RBI, or even batting average.
Johnson’s entire value comes from his OBP. We know, of course, that Johnson didn’t end up wanting to come here, choosing instead to DH in New York. But the fact that he was Sabean’s first choice completely contradicts your assertion that Sabean ignores OBP in favor of RBI, because Johnson’s OBP is his raison d’etre.
How do you explain his targeting of Johnson?
"Baseball is a game filled with moments of anticipation. The ones who can keep their calm while heading in to a storm can make their mark on a season. And what happens in those moments is what turns mere men… in to Giants."
My Son
Troglodyte
Impressive
So optimistic I fart sunshine and rainbows.
Giants Front Office....Torture!
by Giant Torture on Aug 16, 2010 1:51 PM PDT up reply actions
would you believe I didn't even have to spell check it?
love that word.
"Baseball is a game filled with moments of anticipation. The ones who can keep their calm while heading in to a storm can make their mark on a season. And what happens in those moments is what turns mere men… in to Giants."
My Son
Thanks
I’m going to start inserting it unnecessarily in to conversation just so I can sound smart and confuse other people.
So optimistic I fart sunshine and rainbows.
Giants Front Office....Torture!
by Giant Torture on Aug 16, 2010 1:58 PM PDT up reply actions
How do you explain his targeting of Johnson?
/giggle
Proud Adoptive Parent of Jesus Guzman, RHP. 2010 Line: 0 H, 2 BB, 0.00 ERA. CALL HIM UP!
Bochy: What’s this fancy stat here?
IT Guy: That’s how often they get on base. I do not know why you keep asking me, I am here to fix your server.
I’d point out that the word is that Sabean first offered Nick a contract, but didn’t do the slightest negotiations, as far as we’ve heard. That hardly sounds like a first choice. Similarly, no negotiations with LaRoche, as we’ve heard, before offering a contract to Huff.
Not sure how to explain all this, other than that we got a first baseman. I’m honestly not sure Sabean cared about acquiring any of the three of them, just so long as he signed someone to a short term deal.
I'm thinking but nothing's happening.
What?
“but didn’t do the slightest negotiations, as far as we’ve heard.”
You almost NEVER hear about negotiations with FAs, and for good reason.
Sharlon Schoop - de favoriete Nederlandse honkbalspeler van McCovey Chronicles.
You always have to be one step ahead of your drunk friends
--Daisy Owl
True, and I dunno what happened with Johnson, but in LaRoche’s case, he came out and said his party countered and Sabean just moved on to Huff without any sort of negotiation. Now, I’m not going to say that’s a completely unbiased take or anything, but it is info that came out on it.
by Missing Barry on Aug 16, 2010 2:45 PM PDT up reply actions
I guess I’m extrapolating based on the short period of time the offer seemed to be out there, plus how it all went down with LaRoche (according to LaRoche, as MB pointed out).
Still curious how much it was a first choice/second choice/third choice with the three guys.
I'm thinking but nothing's happening.
For over a decade now, Sabean has routinely acquired players with sub-par OBP to hit in key spots in the lineup.
Here’s an experiment I don’t have time to do: For the past decade, compile the players acquired by every GM and evaluate them by OBP. Are Sabean’s acquisitions that far below everyone else’s? I think one problem we (and by that, I include myself) have with Sabean is that we don’t know that context. We assume Sabes is cornering the market on low-OBP players, but what are the other factors?
Decent OBP guys aren’t easy to come by. In any given year, how many are available via FA/trade/waiver. How many are off-limits because of their own wishes (ie, don’t want to play in SF) or other factors (impossible contract, injury questions, etc).
I’d love to know: Where do Sabean’s acquisitions rank in OBP among his peers’ acquisitions?
Disfrute Los Gigantes every day at www.leftymalo.com
IAWTC and: To add another variable to your experiment
Since most young players are team controlled though their 20’s other teams never get a chance to sign them till they are considered old. How many players with high OBP and still in their 20’s have been available?
No one here gets out alive.
I remember reading an article a few years ago that showed that Sabes actually signed a lot of high OBP players. They just happened to be older players. Sort of his twisted own version of Moneyball.
This one was about old being the new OBP, ie, grossly undervalued by the market, which meant Sabes was a sly fox signing old people to cheap contracts! But it doesn’t say anything about old people with high OBPs.
Disfrute Los Gigantes every day at www.leftymalo.com
the cameras are from a local company who needed a park to test their system, and the Giants said, sure, we’ll take your data in exchange
Your memory is incorrect. Last word I saw was the Giants do not actually have an agreement to take any of their data. The Giants essentially have 0 connection to the entire operation, other than being paid for letting their park be a testing site.
by Missing Barry on Aug 16, 2010 2:11 PM PDT up reply actions
Popular Science or something said that the Giants get the data and they don’t have to share.
by Grant Brisbee on Aug 16, 2010 2:43 PM PDT up reply actions
Yeah
I remember hearing that too, do you have a link MB?
Sharlon Schoop - de favoriete Nederlandse honkbalspeler van McCovey Chronicles.
You always have to be one step ahead of your drunk friends
--Daisy Owl
The article in the Merc from last year certainly implies that they’re getting the data:
The Giants have also been quietly testing out a new video system that analyzes every movement on the field. The $5 million system, developed by Mountain View-based Sportvision, which created the yellow first-down line for football telecasts, will be installed in all 30 major league stadiums as soon as next year, giving teams a wealth of new statistical information.
Sharlon Schoop - de favoriete Nederlandse honkbalspeler van McCovey Chronicles.
You always have to be one step ahead of your drunk friends
--Daisy Owl
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2009/09/18/DDNU198ABO.DTL
The Giants are not active participants in the FIELDf/x experiment. They are just supplying the venue to Sportvision, the electronic innovator that put the yellow graphics on TV to show you when the umpire has blown a call and the electronic first-down markers on football broadcasts.
by Missing Barry on Aug 16, 2010 2:59 PM PDT up reply actions
I want you to know I put a lot of effort into finding that link!
by Missing Barry on Aug 16, 2010 3:00 PM PDT up reply actions
that seems odd
because the quote directly preceding that paragraph implies that they are able to look at the data, but aren’t quite sure what to make of it yet
Sharlon Schoop - de favoriete Nederlandse honkbalspeler van McCovey Chronicles.
You always have to be one step ahead of your drunk friends
--Daisy Owl
from your article
“It’s not a sure thing that this will work, but we’re heading toward it,” says Bill Schlough, chief information officer for the San Francisco Giants.
From the article from the Merc on Sportsvision’s website:
“You will be able to measure all these things you weren’t able to measure before — how fast is a ball thrown, how fast does a runner run, how far did a runner have to move to catch a ball and what was your reaction time if you tagged up on a fly ball,” Schlough said. Most, if not all, of the data will be used by the Giants to help the team gain a competitive advantage on the field and probably won’t be shared with the public, he added.
emphasis mine
Sharlon Schoop - de favoriete Nederlandse honkbalspeler van McCovey Chronicles.
You always have to be one step ahead of your drunk friends
--Daisy Owl
My boy!
"Being a McCoven is like being a member of the Green party. It’s powerlessness is part of the appeal." - oldjacket
"Quiet you, I'm starting a meme." - Me
"You can shake a dozen glove men out of a tree, but the bat separates the men from the boys." - Washington Senators First baseman Dale Long
Proud papa to: Bill Schlough, Senior Vice President and Chief Information Officer, aka the IT guy.
oh sorry
it’s on sportsvision’s website www.sportsvision.com under 2009 news archives article titled AT&T PARK LEADING THE WAY IN DIGITALLY ENHANCED BASEBALL
Sharlon Schoop - de favoriete Nederlandse honkbalspeler van McCovey Chronicles.
You always have to be one step ahead of your drunk friends
--Daisy Owl
I’m not seeing anything but camping gear for sale…. :\
by Missing Barry on Aug 17, 2010 5:30 PM PDT up reply actions
The true test will be to see what happens if Guillen continues to struggle.
Problem is, some combination of Sabes/Bochy told his agent he’d get 4 or 5 starts a week. If he sucks and gets benched, then, in his mind (at least) he’s got a reason to pout and be that clubhouse cancer we hear so much about.
You can't solve your problems with the same level of thinking that created the problems - Albert Einstein to Brian Sabean
Fixed
Ifhe sucks and gets benchedthe sun rises, then, in his mind (at least) he’s got a reason to pout and be that clubhouse cancer we hear so much about.
According to his reputation he doesn’t need a reason.
So optimistic I fart sunshine and rainbows.
Giants Front Office....Torture!
by Giant Torture on Aug 16, 2010 1:44 PM PDT up reply actions
I don’t think this argument quite holds together. Putting together a decent offense and making the playoffs makes a team a sizable chunk of money in TV revenue and tickets sales. I’m sure what Jose Guillen’s Q rating is, but it’s not like Sabean acquired Tiger Woods to play RF. Signing Guillen as a “media move” would make an even poorer idea from business risk management perspective than it does from a pure baseball one.
Mark DeRosa is playing exactly the same amount of professional baseball as his adopted father, these days.
Jose Guillen?
Is a big name?
When this .sig was awaiting the Final Sabean Apocalypse, I never once in a million years suspected it would be a "good" Apocalypse. Bengie... Don't let the door hit you IN YOUR GIANT ASS on the way out!
-------
PARPG- Indy post-apocalyptic roleplaying game totally stalled and basically dead at this point
HE'S #1!
In that he runs like #2.
Utter frustration and futility.
Adopted 'nephew' to the ever avuncular and always awesome Jon Miller
by Johnny Disaster on Aug 16, 2010 1:31 PM PDT up reply actions
Thank mythical diety that he’s not blocking Buster Posey.
You can't solve your problems with the same level of thinking that created the problems - Albert Einstein to Brian Sabean
Flying Spaghetti Monster, i think, is who you meant to refernce.
Billy Hayes: His job is better than yours.
FSM is merciful.
Utter frustration and futility.
Adopted 'nephew' to the ever avuncular and always awesome Jon Miller
by Johnny Disaster on Aug 16, 2010 1:48 PM PDT up reply actions
this
"IT'S POSEY, YOU IDIOT." - Jon Miller
Clayton Tanner, the Flying Squirrel!
by walkoff baltimore chop on Aug 16, 2010 2:01 PM PDT up reply actions
Is that worth the hit the Giants will take on defense or on the bases? Probably not.
It is NOT worth the hit the Giants will take on defense or on the bases and it most definitely is worth getting irate over.
I think the one thing that Guillen’s adventures in base-crawling made very apparent is that he does not belong in RF at AT&T. Huff was not great shakes out there either, but he is better than Guillen.
It would be worth having Travis’ bat in the lineup and Huff in the outfield rather than see Guillen sloth after baseballs hit to RF.
As we all knew when this trade was still a possibility, Guillen makes sense as a bat off the bench. However, make him the everyday RF’er and any benefit he provides quickly vanishes.
Dearest, Susan - The Patron Saint of Patience
by Lars The Wanderer on Aug 16, 2010 1:29 PM PDT reply actions
As we all knew when this trade was still a possibility, Guillen makes sense as a bat off the bench
Given his reputation in the clubhouse, I don’t necessarily think that’s true. The guy is right handed, can’t play defense and has slightly more power than Rowand. Not something in necessarily short supply
ISO 2010
Guillen – .175
Rowand – .152
Good God, man, Jose Guillen has reduced many of us to defending Aaron Rowand, what’s this world coming to?
So optimistic I fart sunshine and rainbows.
Giants Front Office....Torture!
by Giant Torture on Aug 16, 2010 1:48 PM PDT up reply actions
OT: Sorry, but i just had to rant, i’m sooo fuckin pissed off, i got box suite seats for the game in St. Louis on Friday, but i’ll be driving in from Denver, so i highly doubt i’ll make it to the game. FUCK
His name is Bond, Brock Bond, and his adopted father? ME, any questions?
Ha, i’m trying to think what time i could leave Boulder to get to the game on time, plus i lose an hour
His name is Bond, Brock Bond, and his adopted father? ME, any questions?
Interstate speed limits are 70 mph in Kansas and Missouri, as I recall. Get up really early in the a.m. Driving time 13+ hours, add another for losing the hour.
Shit...
ummm… we’re talkin, on the road by 4:30
His name is Bond, Brock Bond, and his adopted father? ME, any questions?
You’d make it, providing your stops are few and short. I’d back up my departure at least couple hours though, KC and STL will slow you down, everything else you can just blow on by. I can guarantee ridiculous, snail speed road construction in KC, was just there a couple weeks ago and took and most of an hour to go three miles due to construction on I-435. Not to mention you’ll probably run into a lot of it throughout the trip, this is the time of year for it.
Only stops i’d make would be to get gas or coffee… Soooo what time, you think like 4:30 or 4:45?
His name is Bond, Brock Bond, and his adopted father? ME, any questions?
Well, and they don’t lock the gates after the first inning… You could listen to the game on the radio and hell, if you make it in by the 3rd or 4th inning… it’s still good.
should i do it?
i mean, my good friend basically has box suite tix waiting for me if i accept
His name is Bond, Brock Bond, and his adopted father? ME, any questions?
A suite? Sweet!
Utter frustration and futility.
Adopted 'nephew' to the ever avuncular and always awesome Jon Miller
by Johnny Disaster on Aug 16, 2010 2:11 PM PDT up reply actions
Do it, man.
"IT'S POSEY, YOU IDIOT." - Jon Miller
Clayton Tanner, the Flying Squirrel!
by walkoff baltimore chop on Aug 16, 2010 2:11 PM PDT up reply actions
k, if chop, says yes, i might have to go to the game now
His name is Bond, Brock Bond, and his adopted father? ME, any questions?
Road trip—5 hour energy rails!
You can't solve your problems with the same level of thinking that created the problems - Albert Einstein to Brian Sabean
thanks everyone, i'll drive to St. louis and hit up the game
i’ll be goin alone too… haha
His name is Bond, Brock Bond, and his adopted father? ME, any questions?
Don’t try to loop KC by using I-435, just south of I-70 was where I hit the construction zone. Saturday midday will be a nightmare. Stay on I-70 and keep your fingers crossed.
I’ll be driving straight from Denver to St. Louis on FRIDAY, soooo you’re saying just stay on 70 going thru Kansas City
His name is Bond, Brock Bond, and his adopted father? ME, any questions?
THANK YOU
i’ll do that, basically i’ll be on 70 the whole way, wont need a short cut due to road construction
His name is Bond, Brock Bond, and his adopted father? ME, any questions?
This is going to be a boring drive. At least Ohio and Missouri have some hills along I-70, but Indiana, Illinois, Kansas, and eastern Colorado — zzzzz.
Not taking the I-435 bypass in Kansas City sounds good — but DO take the I-270 bypass in St. Louis.
by non sequitur on Aug 16, 2010 2:36 PM PDT up reply actions
done it 5 or 6 times?
haha, it’s so bad, but hey, get some good beats on, and i’m good. So the 270 bypass getting into St. Louis? is that smart just when driving to get to downtown?
And oh my god driving in Indiana, Illinois, Kansas, and Eastern Colorado, are alllll ZZZZZZ, thank goodness for coffee and people watching and making other drivers laugh at me… but the drive from Vegas to Denver is fun, i’ll update peeps on my drive when i get to places
His name is Bond, Brock Bond, and his adopted father? ME, any questions?
If it makes any sense to say that an interstate is a “hometown”, then I-70 is my hometown. My hometown, Columbia, Missouri, is halfway between KC and STL along I-70, so I know virtually every mile of that corridor by sight. Then I drove a lot to Columbus en route to Oberlin in northeastern Ohio while I was in college, and later Champaign-Urbana for two years of grad school.
If you want to go directly to downtown St. Louis, then you do have to stick to I-70. I-270 completely bypasses the city to the north.
by non sequitur on Aug 16, 2010 2:43 PM PDT up reply actions
MIZZOUUUUUUUUUU!!!!!!
i drive through there… also Oberlin… yikes, kinda near OHIO U…
And thanks for the heads up, i’ll do that, i stopped in Columbia for gas, (good story i know) but did check out the campus, awesome! Also Illinois, toured the school, loved it, just too big
His name is Bond, Brock Bond, and his adopted father? ME, any questions?
oops
pika, I failed to read the entire thread here. You’re driving from Denver to St. Louis — somehow I got the idea you were driving from Oxford to Denver. (I was thinking, that would have been a long, long drive.)
So you DO want to stay on I-70 and go right downtown. Do NOT take the I-270 bypass! That will just lead to misery and missing Posey’s go-ahead grand slam against Wainwright.
Ugh. My apologies.
by non sequitur on Aug 16, 2010 6:08 PM PDT up reply actions
It wasn't great fun.
I looked and it appears there’s a lot of bridge construction on I-70 in Missouri. What I would do is try to schedule a gas stop close to KC before you hit I-435 and ask a local whether I-70 is bad getting through KC, because you could loop on I-435 to the north, I know I-435 between I-29 and I-70 is wide open sailing. How it is on the Missouri side I don’t know.
The Giants have the right idea, just terrible execution. Getting Huff out of the OF and to 1B = a great thing. Replacing him with Jose Guillen = a terrible thing.
Ask me about my blog.
Replace him with: (name giant here)
His name is Bond, Brock Bond, and his adopted father? ME, any questions?
ehh…. just based off defense?
His name is Bond, Brock Bond, and his adopted father? ME, any questions?
Defense and baserunning. And the fact that they aren’t that far apart offensively. Nate is getting a swing of +5-10 runs just on defense. You can give him a couple of runs for baserunning probably.
Ask me about my blog.
Good lord the giants are screwed
His name is Bond, Brock Bond, and his adopted father? ME, any questions?
AND Nate was walking at a career high BB% this but he’s having a horrible BABIP year.
Ask me about my blog.
oh good lord… BABIP, i still don’t see why people use this
His name is Bond, Brock Bond, and his adopted father? ME, any questions?
PiKA, It's really not complex, I promise.
BABIP tells you, more or less, how lucky a hitter is. If a hitter’s BABIP is really low, that tells you he’s probably a better hitter than his offensive numbers (AVG, OBP, SLG, wOBA, etc) would lead you to believe. So if you look at a guy’s average and see he’s hitting .240 but his BABIP is like .270, it’s a safe bet that he’s NOT a .240 hitter.
It’s like any other stat or metric — when applied correctly, it can help you understand how good or ungood a player is.
Billy Hayes: His job is better than yours.
tl;dr
Jonathan Sanchez: Often maddening to watch, but capable of perfection on a moment's notice---just like his adoptive father.
This took way too long.

Joe Mauer is from Minnesota. My adopted son, RHP Steve Edlefsen, is from Minnesota. Joe Mauer is very good at baseball. Call up Steve Edlefsen, Giants! Science™ is begging you.
I used one I found on google.
That wasn’t the hard part. I put it on my flickr, but you can’t direct link from flickr anymore. So I had to find your fanshot about mccimages to get the password so I could put it on there.
Joe Mauer is from Minnesota. My adopted son, RHP Steve Edlefsen, is from Minnesota. Joe Mauer is very good at baseball. Call up Steve Edlefsen, Giants! Science™ is begging you.
oh… see this where i don’t use numbers to judge whether a guy is good or not, i just want to see him play to see whether or not he’s good on the field or not… BUT THATS JUST ME
His name is Bond, Brock Bond, and his adopted father? ME, any questions?
LOL PIKA STRAWHAT
Joe Mauer is from Minnesota. My adopted son, RHP Steve Edlefsen, is from Minnesota. Joe Mauer is very good at baseball. Call up Steve Edlefsen, Giants! Science™ is begging you.
So long as you understand that people are going to disagree with your assessments when you make them that way AND THAT’S OKAY.
Adopted Giant: Ryan Rohlinger (on loan from Shanghaijim).
Buster Posey: He knows the rules!
♥BARRY ZITO♥
yep! I got it, but already i’ve got peeps disagreeing with me, so it’s allll good, haterz gonna hate
His name is Bond, Brock Bond, and his adopted father? ME, any questions?
They’re not haterz, though. That’s the whole point.
Adopted Giant: Ryan Rohlinger (on loan from Shanghaijim).
Buster Posey: He knows the rules!
♥BARRY ZITO♥
K, they’re just provin their point… I’m just one not to think too much about the #s
His name is Bond, Brock Bond, and his adopted father? ME, any questions?
You kind of remind me of Homestar Runner.
Jonathan Sanchez: Often maddening to watch, but capable of perfection on a moment's notice---just like his adoptive father.
that was a pretty funny site
some good vids
His name is Bond, Brock Bond, and his adopted father? ME, any questions?
Wow
2001 flashbacks
Proud Adoptive Parent of Jesus Guzman, RHP. 2010 Line: 0 H, 2 BB, 0.00 ERA. CALL HIM UP!
Bochy: What’s this fancy stat here?
IT Guy: That’s how often they get on base. I do not know why you keep asking me, I am here to fix your server.
so you completely ignore batting average? ERA? runs? you can just tell which team is better and award them the W?
(i’m kidding)
(not really)
Billy Hayes: His job is better than yours.
haha, no i just completely ignore BABIP or BEWREBREWBREW
anything more than what you just said, i just don’t really care much about
His name is Bond, Brock Bond, and his adopted father? ME, any questions?
...

Jonathan Sanchez: Often maddening to watch, but capable of perfection on a moment's notice---just like his adoptive father.
Remember over last offseason when GRM was getting all STATS and now he’s back to BARSTOOL EYES STRAWHATS.
What a weird place this can be!
Ask me about my blog.
Yeah, GRM got way statty than most of us for a while….and then went all the way back. It was weird.
Jonathan Sanchez: Often maddening to watch, but capable of perfection on a moment's notice---just like his adoptive father.
Apparently his new strategy is like all moves because the Giants scouts must have approved them!
by Missing Barry on Aug 16, 2010 2:20 PM PDT up reply actions
/launches photoshop
//starts to photoshop a strawhat with eyes onto a barstool
///gets distracted by something shiny
Billy Hayes: His job is better than yours.
total time elapsed
1 min 17s
(48s of which was waiting for photoshop to launch)
When this .sig was awaiting the Final Sabean Apocalypse, I never once in a million years suspected it would be a "good" Apocalypse. Bengie... Don't let the door hit you IN YOUR GIANT ASS on the way out!
-------
PARPG- Indy post-apocalyptic roleplaying game totally stalled and basically dead at this point
Do you pay attention to batting average, OPS, and slugging?
"I just struck out looking three times, but in any other ballpark those would have been home runs." - Aubrey Huff
by howtheyscored on Aug 16, 2010 1:59 PM PDT up reply actions
BABIP is exactly as easy to understand as those. It’s almost the exact same math as batting average.
"I just struck out looking three times, but in any other ballpark those would have been home runs." - Aubrey Huff
by howtheyscored on Aug 16, 2010 2:07 PM PDT up reply actions
But i’ve just heard “luck” is involved with it
His name is Bond, Brock Bond, and his adopted father? ME, any questions?
Yeah, it quantifies luck. Which is something you can totally do.
What are the chances of flipping a coin and coming up heads, PiKA?
"I just struck out looking three times, but in any other ballpark those would have been home runs." - Aubrey Huff
by howtheyscored on Aug 16, 2010 2:11 PM PDT up reply actions
if you only want to flip ONE heads in a row, you’d have a 1 out of 2 raised to the power of ONE.
His name is Bond, Brock Bond, and his adopted father? ME, any questions?
So, flipping a coin ONE TIME, your chances of getting heads are one in two.
Say you flip a coin 600 times. Chances are that you will get heads about 300 times.
Now say you get heads 475 times.
That’s BABIP.
"I just struck out looking three times, but in any other ballpark those would have been home runs." - Aubrey Huff
by howtheyscored on Aug 16, 2010 2:20 PM PDT up reply actions
BABIP leads the leagur in cool analogies.
You can't solve your problems with the same level of thinking that created the problems - Albert Einstein to Brian Sabean
if you are ‘quantifying luck’, can you use, say, standard deviation to determine if a player is truly having an extremely unlucky/lucky game/month/year (ie an outlier)?
I don’t see why not. Though if you’re taking it down to the level of an individual game, you might be playing with fire.
"I just struck out looking three times, but in any other ballpark those would have been home runs." - Aubrey Huff
by howtheyscored on Aug 16, 2010 2:36 PM PDT up reply actions
i suppose it would be difficult to get enough data to come to a good conclusion, but you could break down panda’s babip by month in both the majors and minors (if that data exists) and you could determine if this year is an outlier, if last year is an outlier, etc.
it would be interesting, nonetheless
I really don’t think you’d get anything out of month by month results. Too few months with too much variation between months. Also, the real problem is figuring out what his “true talent” level is to compare it to.
by Missing Barry on Aug 16, 2010 3:02 PM PDT up reply actions
Yes, but you need a reference BABIP that is the player’s “true” expected BABIP. If the guy has played for a while, you could use his career numbers, or you could probably estimate something based on LD%/FB%/GB%, adjusted somewhat based on your assessment of the guy’s speed. Then the standard deviation is just:
sqrt((ABs-HR-K) * (expected BABIP) * (1-exBABIP))/(ABs-HR-K)
So if a player had put 500 balls in play and his expected BABIP was .300, the standard deviation would be 0.02. In that case a BABIP below .260 would lead you to believe he was pretty unlucky.
If you change the example to only use 100 trials, you see that the standard deviation is really large (about 0.05), so monthly data isn’t going to be that useful.
um wut
you mean .2?
Sharlon Schoop - de favoriete Nederlandse honkbalspeler van McCovey Chronicles.
You always have to be one step ahead of your drunk friends
--Daisy Owl
lolduh
so used to seeing .xxx when talking about BA/wOBA/whatever, I saw 3 numbers and a decimal point and assumed it was in the same format.
Sharlon Schoop - de favoriete Nederlandse honkbalspeler van McCovey Chronicles.
You always have to be one step ahead of your drunk friends
--Daisy Owl
what about if you took a larger sample than a month, but less than a full season to extrapolate more data and develop a (hopefully) more significant baseline?
it seems like this metric isn’t as useful for evaulating young players due to a lack of data
Maybe. That’s a way oversimplified analogy. There’s a skill level in baseball that provides a large number of variables.
I recognize that BABIP might have some limited probative value, but overall I think it’s an overblown stat relied on to somehow show that players have gotten “lucky” or “unlucky.”
Sometimes a change in BABIP reflects a change in a player’s ability, not related to “luck.” It’s definitely one I consider (or, more often, don’t consider) with a grain of salt.
I DON'T BELIEVE YOU
I tweet (more often than I blarg).
that's why
you also look at LD%/GB%/FB% etc
Sharlon Schoop - de favoriete Nederlandse honkbalspeler van McCovey Chronicles.
You always have to be one step ahead of your drunk friends
--Daisy Owl
I know. But I’ve seen enough references to BABIP during the Padres series to make me tired of it. It’s been bandied about like some sort of grand answer.
IT’S MEASURING LUCK, FOR PETE’S SAKE!
I DON'T BELIEVE YOU
I tweet (more often than I blarg).
I think it’s becoming kind of a similar thing as “ballgame”.
"I just struck out looking three times, but in any other ballpark those would have been home runs." - Aubrey Huff
by howtheyscored on Aug 16, 2010 6:43 PM PDT up reply actions
You hear people talking all the time about whether or not hits fall in, right?
That’s kinda sorta what BABIP helps you understand.
Say a guy hits a ball right on the screws, but hits it right at the SS. A season’s worth of BABIP can tell you about how often something like that happens.
Billy Hayes: His job is better than yours.
Sooo could it tell us something about Pablo this year in comparison to last year?
His name is Bond, Brock Bond, and his adopted father? ME, any questions?
it absolutely could.
Yes.
Bravo.
Here’s the data. http://www.fangraphs.com/graphs.aspx?playerid=5409&position=3B&page=7&type=full
Billy Hayes: His job is better than yours.
basically
he’s crashing back to earth
His name is Bond, Brock Bond, and his adopted father? ME, any questions?
Nooooooo! At least I hope not. Let’s hope he’s just been unlucky!
by Missing Barry on Aug 16, 2010 2:17 PM PDT up reply actions
Well… he’s hitting league avg…
His name is Bond, Brock Bond, and his adopted father? ME, any questions?
You very well could have the right interpretation of things, it would just be very sad if that were true. :(
by Missing Barry on Aug 16, 2010 2:21 PM PDT up reply actions
To be fair to Pablo, his BABIP last year sure didn’t look like luck – he really was consistently hitting the crap out of the ball. This year everything about him seems the same except for one thing – that consistently hard contact is gone and repalced with crappy GB’s….
by Missing Barry on Aug 16, 2010 2:21 PM PDT up reply actions
yeah, not luck in Pablo's case
Just putting the bat on the ball no matter where it was thrown. Clearly, pitchers know now that he can’t catch up to the fastball high and away — at least not most of the time.
Billy Hayes: His job is better than yours.
Hahaha, it’s just one year, big deal, who knows how he’ll change himself
His name is Bond, Brock Bond, and his adopted father? ME, any questions?
Yeah, I honestly have no idea what to expect out of him going forward. His success was really just one year, too……
I’m just hoping “just one year”, doesn’t turn into two years or three years or a career….
by Missing Barry on Aug 16, 2010 2:23 PM PDT up reply actions
All we can do is cross our fingers, right?
His name is Bond, Brock Bond, and his adopted father? ME, any questions?
I think so, unless you’re some sort of hitting expert that can seek him out and give him the advice he needs to succeed!
by Missing Barry on Aug 16, 2010 2:33 PM PDT up reply actions
WHERES BARRY BONDS, NEXT HITTING EXPERT
His name is Bond, Brock Bond, and his adopted father? ME, any questions?
Helping (or hurting, or not making a difference, I don’t know) the competition. :(
by Missing Barry on Aug 16, 2010 2:40 PM PDT up reply actions
Just to put things into context...
People have talked a lot in recent years about BAbip, and how it indicates “luck,” but the correlation is not perfect. In a typical year, most hitters’ BAbips will range from .270-.330, and anything in either direction is considered a possible anomaly.
But then, take a look at the all-time career BAbip leaders:
http://reconditebaseball.blogspot.com/2008/05/extreme-career-babip.html
…I wouldn’t just describe these guys as “lucky.” Thus far, BAbip has really only proven to be somewhat useful in assessing year-to-year anomalies.
Over a few years, you can get a very, very good idea of what a guy’s individual baseline is. With less data, you can make pretty decent guesses at what a guy’s individual baseline is. It’s a very useful tool when you take it in the context of an individual’s career.
"I just struck out looking three times, but in any other ballpark those would have been home runs." - Aubrey Huff
by howtheyscored on Aug 16, 2010 2:57 PM PDT up reply actions
That’s why you hope you have enough data, and you compare a player to himself, rather than to normal hitters. It’s kind of like if Lincecum put up a 4.30 ERA. We’d know there’s a whole lot of bad luck involved there, even though that would be pretty normal for a lot of pitchers….
by Missing Barry on Aug 16, 2010 3:03 PM PDT up reply actions
Are you raising a hypothetical, or are you trying to rationalize current events? I hate to say it, but I believe it’s more than bad luck affecting Timmy right now.
It was a hypothetical.
"I just struck out looking three times, but in any other ballpark those would have been home runs." - Aubrey Huff
by howtheyscored on Aug 16, 2010 3:08 PM PDT up reply actions
it was a hypothetical
though Tim has been hit by a fair bit of bad luck this year (ERA .4 runs over FIP)
Sharlon Schoop - de favoriete Nederlandse honkbalspeler van McCovey Chronicles.
You always have to be one step ahead of your drunk friends
--Daisy Owl
I don't think it's bad luck
He’s hitting fewer line drives and more ground balls, and fewer than half as many of his fly balls are leaving the yard, meaning more fly balls in play. All of that adds up to the conclusion that he isn’t hitting the ball as hard as he was last season.
Even if he’s hitting the ball less hard than last year, that’s likely bad luck to some degree, as well…
And I want to stay optimistic, so stop with your logic and reasoning.
by Missing Barry on Aug 16, 2010 6:33 PM PDT up reply actions
Reason to hope: I think recently he has been hitting the ball harder.
Utter frustration and futility.
Adopted 'nephew' to the ever avuncular and always awesome Jon Miller
by Johnny Disaster on Aug 16, 2010 7:48 PM PDT up reply actions
partly, yes.
His BABIP was pretty high in 08/09, and he’s regressed some. However, it’s clear that he’s not squaring up balls like he was those first two years. I suspect that it’s some combination of pitchers finding his holes and getting a book on him, and him pressing because of his lack of success. It’s a vicious circle.
Billy Hayes: His job is better than yours.
IT'S HIS EYE SIGHT!!!!!!!!
meh, he’s 24? 23? he’ll figure it out, he’s had an off year
His name is Bond, Brock Bond, and his adopted father? ME, any questions?
Or . . .
. . . that he’s getting his head back together after the mess in Venezuela. His “return” does seem to correlate with that, though I’ve examined no data.
Professional baseball analyst since 1980.
I hope the correlation is very strong!
by Missing Barry on Aug 16, 2010 9:04 PM PDT up reply actions
the last guy who had a short messy trip to Venezuela
now is in the Pirates organization.
/i keed
"Being a McCoven is like being a member of the Green party. It’s powerlessness is part of the appeal." - oldjacket
"Quiet you, I'm starting a meme." - Me
"You can shake a dozen glove men out of a tree, but the bat separates the men from the boys." - Washington Senators First baseman Dale Long
Proud papa to: Bill Schlough, Senior Vice President and Chief Information Officer, aka the IT guy.
OFFENSIVE NUMBERS? YOU FORGOT RIBEYEZZ!!
Joe Mauer is from Minnesota. My adopted son, RHP Steve Edlefsen, is from Minnesota. Joe Mauer is very good at baseball. Call up Steve Edlefsen, Giants! Science™ is begging you.
I never see anyone post the reference number for BABIP—what is the number of the hitter who is neither lucky nor unlucky? How is that number determined?
You can't solve your problems with the same level of thinking that created the problems - Albert Einstein to Brian Sabean
Depends on how many PA’s they have. With enough PA’s, you basically compare a guy to himself.
by Missing Barry on Aug 16, 2010 2:18 PM PDT up reply actions
The link says .290 – .300 is about the number for a pitcher or hitter who is neither lucky nor unlucky.
I always used .300 for a pitcher, but couldnt remember where I got that, or what it was for a hitter.
You can't solve your problems with the same level of thinking that created the problems - Albert Einstein to Brian Sabean
Yeah, the difference between hitters and pitchers is the variation, though. With pitchers, you can heavily regress towards .300 in almost every case and you’d be right. With hitters, regressing towards league average isn’t a very good way of doing it – it’s what you have to do if you’re using a limited sample, but eventually, you start regressing the hitter to himself because hitters have so much more control over BABIP than pitchers.
by Missing Barry on Aug 16, 2010 2:24 PM PDT up reply actions
I grok. Thanks!
You can't solve your problems with the same level of thinking that created the problems - Albert Einstein to Brian Sabean
The point is . . .
. . . that pitchers’ BABIPs are the consolidated BABIPs of all the batters they have faced, so they will naturally tend toward the league average. It is not obvious a priori that no pitcher can have a BABIP much different from average (as some batters can), but that’s what the real-world evidence shows. A pitcher who is 20 points off average is extraordinary, whereas a batter needs to be maybe 50 points off before “extraordinary” is the term.
Professional baseball analyst since 1980.
BECAUSE IT’S A USEFUL STAT.
WHAT IS YOUR PROBLEM WITH IT EXACTLY?
"I just struck out looking three times, but in any other ballpark those would have been home runs." - Aubrey Huff
by howtheyscored on Aug 16, 2010 1:59 PM PDT up reply actions
If it were up to me
We would be running a Nate/Rowand platoon out there instead of Guillen.
"Baseball is a game filled with moments of anticipation. The ones who can keep their calm while heading in to a storm can make their mark on a season. And what happens in those moments is what turns mere men… in to Giants."
My Son
The problem is . . .
. . . that Schierholtz appears to be a normal player, in that if he doesn’t play regularly—at least 2/3 to 3/4 time—he cannot give you what he’s really got on offense. There are a few guys who can just come out of hibernation and hit, but not many. When Schierholtz was playing regularly earlier this year, his offense was quite acceptable, especially considering his defense. Unless—as I suspect—his shoulder is still a bit out of whack, he would be the runaway best choice in RF right now.
Professional baseball analyst since 1980.
And even if his shoulder is out of whack, I still think Rowand/Ishi as a platoon is clearly a better choice than Guillen.
by Missing Barry on Aug 16, 2010 9:00 PM PDT up reply actions
Not sure, but . . .
. . . I’d definitely like to find out (about the shoulder, that is—I don’t facy platoons, and especially not one with Rowand in it).
Professional baseball analyst since 1980.
here’s your one chance Fancy
don’t let me down
"Being a McCoven is like being a member of the Green party. It’s powerlessness is part of the appeal." - oldjacket
"Quiet you, I'm starting a meme." - Me
"You can shake a dozen glove men out of a tree, but the bat separates the men from the boys." - Washington Senators First baseman Dale Long
Proud papa to: Bill Schlough, Senior Vice President and Chief Information Officer, aka the IT guy.
whoops, looks like you had a second chance.
"Being a McCoven is like being a member of the Green party. It’s powerlessness is part of the appeal." - oldjacket
"Quiet you, I'm starting a meme." - Me
"You can shake a dozen glove men out of a tree, but the bat separates the men from the boys." - Washington Senators First baseman Dale Long
Proud papa to: Bill Schlough, Senior Vice President and Chief Information Officer, aka the IT guy.
If I remember right, isn’t it your stance that the platoon advantage and the “not playing regularly” aspects of a platoon basically cancel each other out? Even if that happens with Rowand, I still believe it’s clearly a better option. I don’t like Rowand, and I’m looking forward to mid-2011 when I believe Sabean will finally just cut him loose, but right now, I think he’s better than Guillen. Fairly comparable hitters with Rowand’s D being clearly better.
by Missing Barry on Aug 16, 2010 9:11 PM PDT up reply actions
Yes and no.
It depends on which part of the platoon we’re talking about. I haven’t looked lately, but as best I recall, about 1/3 to 1/4 of innings are pitched by LHP. Thus, the LHB part of the platoon will be playing sufficiently, and will bat at his favored-side rate. But the RHB part will not get enough time, and will lose—my guess—maybe 25% or 30% of his effectiveness. I no longer recall what platoon differentials are supposed to be, but I’d reckon that not only wipes it out, but maybe goes a little past. Thus, I’d prefer the LHB part to play full-time. (And that’s why the percentage of LHB in MLB is far beyond the incidence of left-handers in the population at large.)
Successful RHB are simply men so good that even on their off side they hit well enough to be major leaguers; facing LHP, they just have an extra advantage.
I don’t think (though I wouldn’t swear to this) that we have gotten much further than Bill James did years ago in analyzing platoon differentials. Some men appear to have huge differentials, and some hardly any at all. But I suspect, as I believe James did, that if everyone got enough steady play time over a long enough career, we’d find that they’re all fairly similar (though outliers will exist in any distribution).
Professional baseball analyst since 1980.
Tango has done a decent amount of research on platoon splits. The results: basically what you said, most players fall under a very similar split, so the best way to view them is just to apply the MLB average split to a player until you have 5-10 years of data at least to say they have a different split.
I still think Rowand/Ishi as a platoon is our best option.
by Missing Barry on Aug 17, 2010 6:46 AM PDT up reply actions
Randy Winn>>> Jose Guillen
Adopted father of the prettiest player in the organization, Nestor Rojas.
I'm sorry...I know he looked horrible on the base pads
but he did hit a double…so he can’t leg out a triple…he did hit a double
The year before David Ortiz was traded to BOS…he hit: .234/.324/.475 with 18 homers and 48 RBIs…he hit much better before he was traded to BOS but there were always talk of injuries and inconsistency…
Of course Guillen is much older than Ortiz …but if he can do even half of what Ortiz did at Boston after being trade (without the doping)…I will take it.
Didn't Sabean justify a signing last year by saying the guy "hits three run homers"?
Or did I imagine that?
Joe Mauer is from Minnesota. My adopted son, RHP Steve Edlefsen, is from Minnesota. Joe Mauer is very good at baseball. Call up Steve Edlefsen, Giants! Science™ is begging you.
how old was David Ortiz? How old is Jose Guillen?
next!
Mark DeRosa is playing exactly the same amount of professional baseball as his adopted father, these days.
Oritz was released outright at the end of 2002 by Minnesota
Ortiz was 27 at the time he was picked up by BOS…Guillen is 34
Ortiz was at the age when most players peak, Guillen is at the age where he is what he is.
Mark DeRosa is playing exactly the same amount of professional baseball as his adopted father, these days.
If that was the case...then someone would have traded for him from Minn
No one wanted him and thus he was waived outright by Minn due to injury issues and an inability to hit lefties…
Although…I am pretty sure that he only became good after he juiced up…
he may or may not have been juicing. Fact is 27 is within the range that players typically peak. 34 is not. There is no argument about it.
Mark DeRosa is playing exactly the same amount of professional baseball as his adopted father, these days.
He was juicing...it's a fact...
It’s also a fact that Ortiz was injury plagued and was not wanted by any team including the Twins…
So you are aguing:
because this happened with David Ortiz, then it was ok for the Giants to take a shot at A 34 YEAR OLD JOSE GUILLEN?
Proud Adoptive Parent of Jesus Guzman, RHP. 2010 Line: 0 H, 2 BB, 0.00 ERA. CALL HIM UP!
Bochy: What’s this fancy stat here?
IT Guy: That’s how often they get on base. I do not know why you keep asking me, I am here to fix your server.
who's talking about how many teams wanted Guillen?
nobody.
The only thing I’m saying is that 34 year old baseball players don’t start hitting better because of a change in the laundry.
Mark DeRosa is playing exactly the same amount of professional baseball as his adopted father, these days.
DUDE
you’re the only one who cares about how many teams wanted Guillen. A GM can pick up a good player that nobody wants, nobody is arguing otherwise. What you seem to be deliberately ignoring is that you can’t ever reasonably expect a 34- yr old to be anything other than what he was. The same can not be said of a 27 year old.
Mark DeRosa is playing exactly the same amount of professional baseball as his adopted father, these days.
like, 3 of them!
Mark DeRosa is playing exactly the same amount of professional baseball as his adopted father, these days.
lol
Dearest, Susan - The Patron Saint of Patience
by Lars The Wanderer on Aug 16, 2010 2:20 PM PDT up reply actions
uh
you kept talking about how nobody wanted him even though I was talking about player aging curves.
Mark DeRosa is playing exactly the same amount of professional baseball as his adopted father, these days.
Remember when everyone was like “This is an OK move if he’s just a PH?” And then Bochy said he was the full-time RF and everyone was like FUKCKKKK.
I liked that.
Ask me about my blog.
4-5 days a week is 4-5 too many times for him to be starting.
So optimistic I fart sunshine and rainbows.
Giants Front Office....Torture!
by Giant Torture on Aug 16, 2010 1:50 PM PDT up reply actions
“We didn’t acquire him to be on the bench,” said manager Bruce Bochy, who plans to use Guillen somewhere in the middle of the batting order.
Ask me about my blog.
Uh, I don’t see the words “not locked in” anywhere in there.
Jonathan Sanchez: Often maddening to watch, but capable of perfection on a moment's notice---just like his adoptive father.
calbear goes all “LALALAL….CAN’T HEAR YOU” when the facts are against whatever argument he is making. I’ve experienced it once already.
=)
Dearest, Susan - The Patron Saint of Patience
by Lars The Wanderer on Aug 16, 2010 1:52 PM PDT up reply actions
Come on...
really…I never said that Bochy didn’t say he was going to play Guillen…I just like waiting for a week to see if he starts 4-5 times…
It amazes me at times how predictable all that shit is, and yet some people continue to not see that it’s the “Giants way!”….
by Missing Barry on Aug 16, 2010 2:16 PM PDT up reply actions
I never said it was okay if he’s just a PH, because I knew he’d see starts with Bochy in charge of the team.
I DON'T BELIEVE YOU
I tweet (more often than I blarg).
It was crazy for the Twins to non-tender Ortiz. He hit .272/.339/.500 that season and he was entering his peak seasons. Also, steroids.
by Grant Brisbee on Aug 16, 2010 2:16 PM PDT up reply actions
Yeah...but no one else wanted him..
Teams were scared of his injuries, lack of defense, and probably his weight
The issue isn’t with him hitting a double. He’s much slower than anyone anticipated, which translates into reduced range in RF and less total bases. These things counter his [perhaps] productive bat.
Why are you comparing him to David Ortiz? Guillen is 34.
"Bengie Molina - the quintessential double play possibility." - Jon MIller
I mean, he literally looked injured to me. I thought something was wrong with him, he was so slow. It was very concerning.
Adopted Giant: Ryan Rohlinger (on loan from Shanghaijim).
Buster Posey: He knows the rules!
♥BARRY ZITO♥
Yeah, that’s what’s concerning. That healthy Guillen looks like injured everyone else.
Adopted Giant: Ryan Rohlinger (on loan from Shanghaijim).
Buster Posey: He knows the rules!
♥BARRY ZITO♥
HE SAID TO CALM DOWN
Utter frustration and futility.
Adopted 'nephew' to the ever avuncular and always awesome Jon Miller
by Johnny Disaster on Aug 16, 2010 1:50 PM PDT up reply actions
He looks sick to me. He looks all sucked up. Maybe I haven’t seen him in a while, too.
Giant Dirtbags: John Bowker, Steve Hammond, Brian Anderson.
Jeremy Affeldt induces strained obliques
by Giant among Angels on Aug 16, 2010 1:39 PM PDT up reply actions
I know. He looked like he was running with prosthetics. I take that back – I’ve seen people run much faster with prosthetics.
He looked like he was dragging one of those weights used on cars for tractor pull races.
"Bengie Molina - the quintessential double play possibility." - Jon MIller
It looked like he was pulling the invisible desk that Bengie used to drag behind him whilst running the bases.
Utter frustration and futility.
Adopted 'nephew' to the ever avuncular and always awesome Jon Miller
by Johnny Disaster on Aug 16, 2010 1:52 PM PDT up reply actions
Yes — he looked like someone who was afraid he was about to pull a hamstring.
by non sequitur on Aug 16, 2010 1:46 PM PDT up reply actions
what's your point
He just gets slow all of the sudden? After 10 days. Nah.
"Bengie Molina - the quintessential double play possibility." - Jon MIller
I sincerely doubt that.
But, at best, the guy has a different problem. But, it’s still a problem.
Adopted Giant: Ryan Rohlinger (on loan from Shanghaijim).
Buster Posey: He knows the rules!
♥BARRY ZITO♥
if you lose that much speed after just 10 days you have bigger problems
maybe some sort of thyroid deficiency, i don’t even know.
Sorry, but that's bullshit.
I’m not claiming to know this guy’s personal workout routine, etc. etc. But a professional athlete, a pro MLB player at 34 years old, doesn’t lose the ability to run from home to 3rd in the span of 10 days (unless he’s injured).
"Bengie Molina - the quintessential double play possibility." - Jon MIller
Ridiculous
Do you think that Brian Sabean would trade for an injured player to help the team make it to the playoffs? That’s insane.
So optimistic I fart sunshine and rainbows.
Giants Front Office....Torture!
by Giant Torture on Aug 16, 2010 2:01 PM PDT up reply actions
Disregard
Freddy Sanchez just called to correct me.
So optimistic I fart sunshine and rainbows.
Giants Front Office....Torture!
by Giant Torture on Aug 16, 2010 2:02 PM PDT up reply actions
Yes
I was definitely joking, just added that before someone replied with ’you’re kidding right?’
So optimistic I fart sunshine and rainbows.
Giants Front Office....Torture!
by Giant Torture on Aug 16, 2010 2:04 PM PDT up reply actions
You’re kidding right?
I’m not some Nerd-fuck who’s measuring REAL accomplishments against hypothetical BULLSHIT modeling and mythical probability graphs.
I LOL’ed
So optimistic I fart sunshine and rainbows.
Giants Front Office....Torture!
by Giant Torture on Aug 16, 2010 2:25 PM PDT up reply actions
LOL
"IT'S POSEY, YOU IDIOT." - Jon Miller
Clayton Tanner, the Flying Squirrel!
by walkoff baltimore chop on Aug 16, 2010 2:04 PM PDT up reply actions
He must really be out of practice if he is running home to third.
Proud Adoptive Parent of Jesus Guzman, RHP. 2010 Line: 0 H, 2 BB, 0.00 ERA. CALL HIM UP!
Bochy: What’s this fancy stat here?
IT Guy: That’s how often they get on base. I do not know why you keep asking me, I am here to fix your server.
If my livelihood depends on me being in shape, I think I’d remain in shape, regardless of if I’ve not played in 1 day or 10. And it’s the middle of the season.
I'm thinking but nothing's happening.
Wow, that’s some strange logic. I guess there are those people who would want to stay in shape, expecting or hoping to catch on with another team, thinking that we’re entering the final stretch of the season and they’d want to be ready to help.
And then there’s… ?
I'm thinking but nothing's happening.
JOSE NOVA
Utter frustration and futility.
Adopted 'nephew' to the ever avuncular and always awesome Jon Miller
by Johnny Disaster on Aug 16, 2010 2:53 PM PDT up reply actions
I should also say that it's depends on the player...
Jerry Rice still works out to this day…
Guillen was DFAed by the worst time in the MLB (arguably)…and his production was way down…The Giants picked him up on the very last possible day…
Mentally strong would not be my characterization of Guillen and thus I find plausible that he didn’t care…doesn’t say much about him…
Will see what his conditioning is like in the coming days.
Well, Jerry Rice was a football player, and we’re talking about baseball players. So let’s just throw that out.
I’m not so sure you’re qualified to assess his mental state either, so let’s throw that out.
"Bengie Molina - the quintessential double play possibility." - Jon MIller
I’m going to throw out the idea that you can lose your conditioning in 10 days.
Utter frustration and futility.
Adopted 'nephew' to the ever avuncular and always awesome Jon Miller
by Johnny Disaster on Aug 16, 2010 3:00 PM PDT up reply actions
Don’t go for 10 days and see if you can’t manage to make it through your customary workout somehow.
Utter frustration and futility.
Adopted 'nephew' to the ever avuncular and always awesome Jon Miller
by Johnny Disaster on Aug 16, 2010 3:04 PM PDT up reply actions
2 Mondays ago I ran 6.5 miles. Last Monday I ran 7 miles (both were personal bests at the time.) I did nothing in between. Managed just fine.
Let’s take this consideration a step further…
You’re arguing that Guillen was free, and if he gives us even half of what Ortiz provided the Red Sox when they acquired him (some of the craziest logic ever), he’d be a good acquisition. But you’re also saying that he probably didn’t stay in shape (or might not have) during the 10 days he wasn’t playing. And if he’s healthy and ran like that (I believe the guy in the video said it looked like he was pulling a piano while rounding FIRST base), then this could be a serious problem.
If he already sucks, and he isn’t mentally strong, then what crazy Bizarro world is this we’re living in, where there’s any chance this could be a good acquisition, regardless of how “free” he might be?
I'm thinking but nothing's happening.
Dude
base pads!
Dearest, Susan - The Patron Saint of Patience
by Lars The Wanderer on Aug 16, 2010 3:05 PM PDT up reply actions
Sure..
I am not saying that Guillen will give us half of what Ortiz gave Boston…it’s a possibility.
Yes, Guillen looked bad running the bases but he showed pop in getting the double to beginning with. So if he stays that way, he will likely become a PH/DH…if he gets better…maybe he will stay in the lineup.
I could handle Guillen only playing in AL parks.
Joe Mauer is from Minnesota. My adopted son, RHP Steve Edlefsen, is from Minnesota. Joe Mauer is very good at baseball. Call up Steve Edlefsen, Giants! Science™ is begging you.
My livelihood does not depend on being in shape, and I definitely do not fall out of shape in 10 days….
by Missing Barry on Aug 16, 2010 3:04 PM PDT up reply actions
You are not seriously comparing a 27 year old David Ortiz to a 34 year old Jose Guillen on the downward end of his career.
Proud Adoptive Parent of Jesus Guzman, RHP. 2010 Line: 0 H, 2 BB, 0.00 ERA. CALL HIM UP!
Bochy: What’s this fancy stat here?
IT Guy: That’s how often they get on base. I do not know why you keep asking me, I am here to fix your server.
Oh yes he is
Or she, I’m not exactly sure. Either way, somebody is.
Guillen is 34, and will not be playing the next few months in a bandbox with seats stapled to every open wall space.
This is crazy.
Proud Adoptive Parent of Jesus Guzman, RHP. 2010 Line: 0 H, 2 BB, 0.00 ERA. CALL HIM UP!
Bochy: What’s this fancy stat here?
IT Guy: That’s how often they get on base. I do not know why you keep asking me, I am here to fix your server.
I also said that if he gave us even half of what Ortiz gave to BOS
it’s a win…Guillen was basically free…$250K on the payroll and a PTBNL
Or
he could have been really free, as in not aquired, and we would get the same production out of Rowand/Ishikawa.
This is no rationale for thinking Guillen is going to go David Ortiz-lite for us for the rest of the season.
Proud Adoptive Parent of Jesus Guzman, RHP. 2010 Line: 0 H, 2 BB, 0.00 ERA. CALL HIM UP!
Bochy: What’s this fancy stat here?
IT Guy: That’s how often they get on base. I do not know why you keep asking me, I am here to fix your server.
Also, he’s not free if he costs wins.
Adopted Giant: Ryan Rohlinger (on loan from Shanghaijim).
Buster Posey: He knows the rules!
♥BARRY ZITO♥
Ooh, someone's getting snotty!
It is possible to have negative WAR, you know.
Adopted Giant: Ryan Rohlinger (on loan from Shanghaijim).
Buster Posey: He knows the rules!
♥BARRY ZITO♥
It is...but Guillen doesn't have one...
It’s not snotty…you are throwing out a conjecture…I just asking for you to prove it.
He was -1.7 WAR in 2009.
Also, show me where I said for certain that he would cost wins. Oh right, I never did. But, extrapolating from what this guy has done is not ridiculous.
Assuming that he will magically become a completely different player is.
Adopted Giant: Ryan Rohlinger (on loan from Shanghaijim).
Buster Posey: He knows the rules!
♥BARRY ZITO♥
I am not saying that he will cost game for certain
My point is you are using that as a negative against him…hasn’t happened..
but it has happened in the past!
how hard is this to grasp? he is an old player who has played extremely poorly in the last few years. logic dictates that he will continue to perform like this.
What do those guys have to do with Jose Guillen?
Adopted Giant: Ryan Rohlinger (on loan from Shanghaijim).
Buster Posey: He knows the rules!
♥BARRY ZITO♥
Ladies and gentlemen, this is Chewbacca. Chewbacca is a Wookiee from the planet Kashyyyk. But Chewbacca lives on the planet Endor. Now think about it; that does not make sense!
I’m not some Nerd-fuck who’s measuring REAL accomplishments against hypothetical BULLSHIT modeling and mythical probability graphs.
I keep hearing this, but it doesn’t make sense to me. Where is it ever established that Chewbacca lives on Endor?
"I just struck out looking three times, but in any other ballpark those would have been home runs." - Aubrey Huff
by howtheyscored on Aug 16, 2010 2:37 PM PDT up reply actions
He maintains an apartment there for his lady friends.
Utter frustration and futility.
Adopted 'nephew' to the ever avuncular and always awesome Jon Miller
by Johnny Disaster on Aug 16, 2010 2:40 PM PDT up reply actions
And why does it not make sense for him to live there? I’m sure he bonded with the Ewoks during the battle of Endor and all that. Is it weird if Luke doesn’t live on Tatooine?
The Giants don’t fare well against pitchers.
Ewok fetish.
Utter frustration and futility.
Adopted 'nephew' to the ever avuncular and always awesome Jon Miller
by Johnny Disaster on Aug 16, 2010 2:49 PM PDT up reply actions
It’s the Chewbacca Defense
I’m not some Nerd-fuck who’s measuring REAL accomplishments against hypothetical BULLSHIT modeling and mythical probability graphs.
even if you can come up with a list of old players who have reversed their career trends out of nowhere and influenced a pennant run (which i would like to see, i’m too lazy to look at numbers myself right now), it is really foolish to believe that another exception to the norm will occur with guillen. all indicators point to him failing, and i see no reason why nate or rowand can’t outperform him down the stretch.
If he costs a game, he is not free. Your failure to accept the actual facts about what he is as a player doesn’t negate the fact that he looks like a very risky acquisition. Statistical analysis exists because it works. You can discount it all you want for whatever reason (that I can’t figure out), but that doesn’t make it go away.
Also, -1.7 war in 2009 (not sure if you saw that the first time).
Adopted Giant: Ryan Rohlinger (on loan from Shanghaijim).
Buster Posey: He knows the rules!
♥BARRY ZITO♥
According to BR, Guillen has a lieftime cumulative WAR of 4.6 over 14 seasons.
Burrell’s is 16.2 over 11 seasons.
"Bengie Molina - the quintessential double play possibility." - Jon MIller
What does Pat Burrell have to do with Guillen?
You mistakenly claimed that Guillen doesn’t have negative war. Two people demonstrated that he did. Rather than acknowledge your error, you say, “Pat Burrell.”
Just to make myself extra clear: I am looking at the whole package, not just WAR. I am not arguing that you can ONLY look at WAR is one way to measure. I’m sorry if you didn’t get that the first time around. As jponry said multiple times the other day, there are several reasons why Pat Burrell and Jose Guillen are not a good comparison. calpolynate has one of them right here in this subthread.
But, the bottom line is that you’re not going to accept any fact you don’t like, so I give up.
Adopted Giant: Ryan Rohlinger (on loan from Shanghaijim).
Buster Posey: He knows the rules!
♥BARRY ZITO♥
No...
my view is now..tell me when Guillen costs the Giants a game…the reference to WAR was to this year…
People then brought up that he had a negative WAR last year and I responded that so did Burrell. That’s it.
You wanted us to show you where Guillen had cost the Giants a game? Obviously no one can do that, but it sure shuts down an argument when you declare yourself the victor after demanding evidence that is impossible to obtain. Of course, even if he does this season, you’ll just shift the goalposts again to something else.
Guillen projects to be a risk for a lot of factors, based on empirical evidence, which has been spelled out for you over and over again. You have yet to put forward any evidence to negate that.
You can continue to try to take your “you never know, Guillen could do something that his numbers demonstrate is nearly impossible” stance. Go ahead, but please be prepared to defend it.
Adopted Giant: Ryan Rohlinger (on loan from Shanghaijim).
Buster Posey: He knows the rules!
♥BARRY ZITO♥
I don't declare myself anything
My point has all along be:
1) Guillen is a lottery ticket…pure and simple…the Giants used the baseball equivalent of $1 in baseball money to get him
2) The Giants don’t have that many great alternatives instead of Guillen…Rowand, Ishi, Nate, and Guillen are all equal depending on what criteria you look at.
3) The big upside for Guillen is potential power…that is likely what the Giants are looking from him…just what they were probably looking at for Burrell.
4) It’s up to Bochy (not Sabean) to make the determination between Rowand, Guillen, Ishi, and Nate as to who give the Giants the best chance to win. Sabean as the GM provide the pieces, Bochy puts the pieces in play.
5) I want to see Guillen for at least a week (and how Bochy plays him) before I start evaluate him.
A week? A week of evaluation? That’s fucking worse than they did with Bowker. Unbelievable.
by North Side Chicago Expatriate Giants Fan on Aug 16, 2010 3:01 PM PDT up reply actions
Example 1 is arguing against your own case. Buying lottery tickets is a terrible idea.
Utter frustration and futility.
Adopted 'nephew' to the ever avuncular and always awesome Jon Miller
by Johnny Disaster on Aug 16, 2010 3:02 PM PDT up reply actions
The problem is that if trading for Guillen is buying a lottery ticket, then playing him every day is spending seven million dollars the next day because you assume that you won.
"I just struck out looking three times, but in any other ballpark those would have been home runs." - Aubrey Huff
by howtheyscored on Aug 16, 2010 3:05 PM PDT up reply actions
Not Sabean's fault
Bochy’s determination
I also disagree…who is Guillen replacing that is so superior?
AUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUGH
"I just struck out looking three times, but in any other ballpark those would have been home runs." - Aubrey Huff
by howtheyscored on Aug 16, 2010 3:09 PM PDT up reply actions
Who is Guillen replacing who he is so superior to?
"I just struck out looking three times, but in any other ballpark those would have been home runs." - Aubrey Huff
by howtheyscored on Aug 16, 2010 3:09 PM PDT up reply actions
No one...they all about the same
That’s why it’s a meh trade…
I like the Fontenot trade because of Sanchez’s split…
Guillen trade was non-descript for me…if he does will…okay..if not…it’s the same team as before.
“1) Guillen is a lottery ticket…pure and simple…the Giants used the baseball equivalent of $1 in baseball money to get him”
A lottery ticket where they might get $1 back? OOH!
"Being a McCoven is like being a member of the Green party. It’s powerlessness is part of the appeal." - oldjacket
"Quiet you, I'm starting a meme." - Me
"You can shake a dozen glove men out of a tree, but the bat separates the men from the boys." - Washington Senators First baseman Dale Long
Proud papa to: Bill Schlough, Senior Vice President and Chief Information Officer, aka the IT guy.
any chance we could get more tickets?
"Bengie Molina - the quintessential double play possibility." - Jon MIller
At worst we lose $1
Why would that make Grant sad?
The player we send away is just as much of a “lottery ticket” to make an impact on the Giants as Jose Guillen is
at worst we miss the playoffs because we decided to play Jose Guillen over Nate Schierholtz
The Giants don’t fare well against pitchers.
mehhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
I’m nearly certain this move is a complete side grade.
Sharlon Schoop - de favoriete Nederlandse honkbalspeler van McCovey Chronicles.
You always have to be one step ahead of your drunk friends
--Daisy Owl
Productive hitting is productive hitting, however it comes.
by Missing Barry on Aug 16, 2010 3:05 PM PDT up reply actions
I want to see Guillen for at least a week (and how Bochy plays him) before I start evaluate him.
And, the rest of us find years of statistical data about him far more convincing about his potential than one week of our own eyes.
I’m not sure in what universe you can think your method is preferable (or that the things Bochy actually says are less likely to be true that some conjecture you’ve reached), but okay. You’re certainly entitled to your opinion. And, we’re all entitled to laugh at you.
Adopted Giant: Ryan Rohlinger (on loan from Shanghaijim).
Buster Posey: He knows the rules!
♥BARRY ZITO♥
It's not better or worse
It’s just a different way to look at it…for me…I see
0.1 percent that Guillen will be good
3-5 percent chance that he will be average/decent
95-97 percent that he will suck…
But that’s what I would say for Rowand, Ishi, and Nate so …meh
There ARE better and worse ways to look at it. That’s why people put so much effort into researching this stuff, to come up with the statistically sound things that prove, over time, to be right more often….
by Missing Barry on Aug 16, 2010 3:11 PM PDT up reply actions
It’s not better or worse
That’s not actually what you’ve been saying all along. You have said that he cannot be judged to be a risk until you’ve seen him for a week or whatever.
Also, lol at you arguing so hard for days in favor of a trade for a guy you think has a 0.1 percent chance of being good.
Now tell us again why we shouldn’t consider you a contrarian.
Adopted Giant: Ryan Rohlinger (on loan from Shanghaijim).
Buster Posey: He knows the rules!
♥BARRY ZITO♥
I have never argued in favor of the trade
Go back to my first post…I am meh about the trade…not excited but not horrified by it…it’s a lottery ticket…if it works…great if not, no difference to the team.
I know, that’s what I just said. You don’t even care. Yet here you are.
Adopted Giant: Ryan Rohlinger (on loan from Shanghaijim).
Buster Posey: He knows the rules!
♥BARRY ZITO♥
WHAT ARE YOU BEING SO MAD ABOUT I’M TOTALLY CALM
"I just struck out looking three times, but in any other ballpark those would have been home runs." - Aubrey Huff
by howtheyscored on Aug 16, 2010 3:25 PM PDT up reply actions
Lateral moves with downside aren’t really anything to be satisfied with.
"I just struck out looking three times, but in any other ballpark those would have been home runs." - Aubrey Huff
by howtheyscored on Aug 16, 2010 3:26 PM PDT up reply actions
but it's plenty to be meh about
I really don’t get the outrage over it. I mean sure, it was pretty much a lateral move, but it was also free. To me, that’s the definition of meh
Sharlon Schoop - de favoriete Nederlandse honkbalspeler van McCovey Chronicles.
You always have to be one step ahead of your drunk friends
--Daisy Owl
To me, meh and satisfied have always been on the same plan. Maybe that’s the disconnect here.
"I just struck out looking three times, but in any other ballpark those would have been home runs." - Aubrey Huff
by howtheyscored on Aug 16, 2010 3:59 PM PDT up reply actions
So why make it?
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"Out, out, Fred Lewis!" - JCTillam Gamerspeare
We now appear to have a starting RF that’s worse than what we already had?
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"Out, out, Fred Lewis!" - JCTillam Gamerspeare
not really worse
about the same I’d say.
Sharlon Schoop - de favoriete Nederlandse honkbalspeler van McCovey Chronicles.
You always have to be one step ahead of your drunk friends
--Daisy Owl
unless you think UZR
is WAY more accurate than it is.
Sharlon Schoop - de favoriete Nederlandse honkbalspeler van McCovey Chronicles.
You always have to be one step ahead of your drunk friends
--Daisy Owl
He seems like about as good of a defender as Huff, but a much worse hitter?
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"Out, out, Fred Lewis!" - JCTillam Gamerspeare
but he's not replacing huff
he’s replacing nate, ish or rowand
Sharlon Schoop - de favoriete Nederlandse honkbalspeler van McCovey Chronicles.
You always have to be one step ahead of your drunk friends
--Daisy Owl
OK, so Ishikawa has been worth 0.5 WAR so far this year (and that’s with a lower UZR than you’d expect) and Guillen has been worth 0.6 WAR so far this year (with a higher one than you’d expect.)
Oh, did I mention that Ishikawa has 300 fewer PA?
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"Out, out, Fred Lewis!" - JCTillam Gamerspeare
Ishikawa's career wRC+
suggests he’d be about 6 runs worse than Guillen over a full season (with the bat)
Also, I don’t know how you can quantify what we’d expect Ishi’s UZR to be given the sample we have. This really suggests to me that you’re putting too much weight in UZR numbers.
Sharlon Schoop - de favoriete Nederlandse honkbalspeler van McCovey Chronicles.
You always have to be one step ahead of your drunk friends
--Daisy Owl
Ishikawa’s career wRC+ (96) is pretty close to Guillen’s over the last three years (92, 82, 100).
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"Out, out, Fred Lewis!" - JCTillam Gamerspeare
last year
was 300PAs and a babip 30 points below his career, was he injured?
In any case the difference isn’t big, and again, the total effect of the move is, imo, essentially 0.
Sharlon Schoop - de favoriete Nederlandse honkbalspeler van McCovey Chronicles.
You always have to be one step ahead of your drunk friends
--Daisy Owl
Don’t forget that with the other guys, you can take advantage of platoon splits….
Better defense + similar hitters but with platoon splits in their favor = better team.
by Missing Barry on Aug 16, 2010 6:39 PM PDT up reply actions
OK, devil's advocate...
And using your own logic… we already KNOW that Rowand, Ishi, and Nate basically suck and have verrrry limited upside. So we bring in Guillen from the AL, who will PROBABLY suck, but has that shiny new AL-transplant smell about him… Yeah, it’s likely futile, but so is HOPING that Rowand, Ishi, or Nate suddenly become, say, Andres Torres.
"You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means" - Inigo Montoya
Whoops, same “plane”. I should have just said “are the same thing”. If I’m “meh” on a trade, it’s because I’m satisfied with it. I guess that’s not the same for others.
"I just struck out looking three times, but in any other ballpark those would have been home runs." - Aubrey Huff
by howtheyscored on Aug 16, 2010 4:04 PM PDT up reply actions
naw
“meh” to me means that I don’t really care one way or the other. Would I have made the move? Naw, but it’s really not a move worth getting upset over imo.
Sharlon Schoop - de favoriete Nederlandse honkbalspeler van McCovey Chronicles.
You always have to be one step ahead of your drunk friends
--Daisy Owl
Because I hate moves that are just for the sake of making moves.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"Out, out, Fred Lewis!" - JCTillam Gamerspeare
I hate
moves that hurt the organization. This isn’t one of them.
Sharlon Schoop - de favoriete Nederlandse honkbalspeler van McCovey Chronicles.
You always have to be one step ahead of your drunk friends
--Daisy Owl
My big problem with it is defense. I think offensively, it’s a small downgrade, but over the course of a little over a month that doesn’t mean much, too much sample error so it’s just a crapshoot who will do better. My problem is defense doesn’t have the same problem with luck. A guy can’t just go out and be faster one day than he usually is. He’s a definite defensive downgrade, and I do think that’s a given to make a difference in some way.
by Missing Barry on Aug 16, 2010 6:37 PM PDT up reply actions
if not, no difference to the team
Other than the opportunity cost of playing better players….
by Missing Barry on Aug 16, 2010 6:34 PM PDT up reply actions
that’s exactly the way everyone else sees it.
Mark DeRosa is playing exactly the same amount of professional baseball as his adopted father, these days.
I always wonder about these claims
everybody who’s watched baseball has seen weeks where Neifi Perez has looked better than Barry Bonds.
Mark DeRosa is playing exactly the same amount of professional baseball as his adopted father, these days.
BLOG BLOG BLOG
that’s what Grant does ALL day.. Well, you know what??? Now he has to deal with a tennis instructor!!!! Ha! NOT BASEBALL!!! NOT EVEN CLOSE!!! A TENNIS INSTRUCTOR!!!
by Grant Brisbee on Aug 16, 2010 3:14 PM PDT up reply actions 4 recs
Not one reply or rec as of 5:25 p.m.. Suck it, boss! Your shtick has grown tiresome!
by Grant Brisbee on Aug 16, 2010 5:25 PM PDT up reply actions
Look again
Proud Adoptive Parent of Jesus Guzman, RHP. 2010 Line: 0 H, 2 BB, 0.00 ERA. CALL HIM UP!
Bochy: What’s this fancy stat here?
IT Guy: That’s how often they get on base. I do not know why you keep asking me, I am here to fix your server.
This just proves that it is not your boss who is popular
It is llamas.
Dearest, Susan - The Patron Saint of Patience
by Lars The Wanderer on Aug 16, 2010 5:32 PM PDT up reply actions
Rec whore
Dearest, Susan - The Patron Saint of Patience
by Lars The Wanderer on Aug 16, 2010 5:30 PM PDT up reply actions
Is the tennis instructor have a name like he’s part of the Padres bullpen?
"Being a McCoven is like being a member of the Green party. It’s powerlessness is part of the appeal." - oldjacket
"Quiet you, I'm starting a meme." - Me
"You can shake a dozen glove men out of a tree, but the bat separates the men from the boys." - Washington Senators First baseman Dale Long
Proud papa to: Bill Schlough, Senior Vice President and Chief Information Officer, aka the IT guy.
He had a negative WAR last year.
Utter frustration and futility.
Adopted 'nephew' to the ever avuncular and always awesome Jon Miller
by Johnny Disaster on Aug 16, 2010 2:21 PM PDT up reply actions
I don’t suppose you remember the million times jponry explained why this argument was bad already.
Adopted Giant: Ryan Rohlinger (on loan from Shanghaijim).
Buster Posey: He knows the rules!
♥BARRY ZITO♥
Way to shift the goalposts.
Adopted Giant: Ryan Rohlinger (on loan from Shanghaijim).
Buster Posey: He knows the rules!
♥BARRY ZITO♥
But you said ‘Guillen doesn’t have one’… and yet in his most recent complete year, he did. I was refuting your claim. In fact he’s had like 5 negative WAR years.
So far this year – 0.8.
Career – 4.5 over 14 years… and that’s cumulative. He adds less than 1/3 of a win per year over a replacement level (bad) player. He’s a bad player.
Just, really, he’s not good.
Utter frustration and futility.
Adopted 'nephew' to the ever avuncular and always awesome Jon Miller
by Johnny Disaster on Aug 16, 2010 2:34 PM PDT up reply actions
Who he is replacing for the Giants?
Rowand: WAR 0.2 (2010)
Ishikawa: WAR 0.3 (2010) 0.7 (2009)
Nate: WAR 0.1 (2010) 0.8 (2009)
those cherries are delicious.
Mark DeRosa is playing exactly the same amount of professional baseball as his adopted father, these days.
These pretzels are making me thirsty
His name is Bond, Brock Bond, and his adopted father? ME, any questions?
so what's your point
cuz i dont see one.
"Bengie Molina - the quintessential double play possibility." - Jon MIller
Replacement players are fine
but if we are to Guillen, Ishi, Rowand, and Nate in their 2010 forms…
Guillen’s WAR is above all the other three
According to Fangraphs Nate has the same WAR as Guillen in about half as many at-bats
The Giants don’t fare well against pitchers.
Not according to baseball reference...
But average them out…I am going to same that the two are about the same…
Nate is better defensively but Guillen has bigger pop potential
I’m not clear on the differences in WAR between BR and Fangraphs, and I’m not sure if BR WAR for Guillen takes into account how many times he’s DH’ed vs. played RF, but he only played RF 22 times for the Royals, so I would think playing right field, especially in AT&T, will bring that down.
"Bengie Molina - the quintessential double play possibility." - Jon MIller
they use different defensive metrics
Mark DeRosa is playing exactly the same amount of professional baseball as his adopted father, these days.
facepalm
Stop saying that. He’s not free.
1. The Giants have committed to trade a player for him.
B. Opportunity cost.
Billy Hayes: His job is better than yours.
What's opportunity cost?
Next thing you’ll tell me is that the Giants should sit Rowand even though they spent all that money on him and his production has sunk….nerd.
So optimistic I fart sunshine and rainbows.
Giants Front Office....Torture!
by Giant Torture on Aug 16, 2010 2:18 PM PDT up reply actions
34
this honestly can’t be repeated enough times
Mark DeRosa is playing exactly the same amount of professional baseball as his adopted father, these days.
34
Utter frustration and futility.
Adopted 'nephew' to the ever avuncular and always awesome Jon Miller
by Johnny Disaster on Aug 16, 2010 2:22 PM PDT up reply actions
34
Mark DeRosa is playing exactly the same amount of professional baseball as his adopted father, these days.
I’m starting to think that some people are willing to say just about anything in order to play contrarian to the “groupthink.”
Adopted Giant: Ryan Rohlinger (on loan from Shanghaijim).
Buster Posey: He knows the rules!
♥BARRY ZITO♥
I’m waiting to find out what the groupthink thinks before deciding whether to laugh or not.
Utter frustration and futility.
Adopted 'nephew' to the ever avuncular and always awesome Jon Miller
by Johnny Disaster on Aug 16, 2010 1:57 PM PDT up reply actions
Sigh
I am frequently contrarian, but even I’ll admit that MCC groupthink is almost always much closer to the truth than most of the people who come ’round here just to disagree.
"Baseball is a game filled with moments of anticipation. The ones who can keep their calm while heading in to a storm can make their mark on a season. And what happens in those moments is what turns mere men… in to Giants."
My Son
There’s definitely a consensus opinion on a lot of things, but, at least with player evaluation, it’s almost always based on empirical evidence. So, it has a much higher likelihood of being correct or at least defensible. In other words, not a consensus just for the sake of being a consensus.
What’s weird is how that empirical evidence/raw data is completely unpersuasive to some people.
Adopted Giant: Ryan Rohlinger (on loan from Shanghaijim).
Buster Posey: He knows the rules!
♥BARRY ZITO♥
This is the place I come when I need to know what my opinion is on a transaction.
You can't solve your problems with the same level of thinking that created the problems - Albert Einstein to Brian Sabean
This is the place I come when I need to know what groug thinks.
"I could hear the angry MCC cacophany in my head."--Oldjacket, 7/4/10
I come here for news.
I’m not some Nerd-fuck who’s measuring REAL accomplishments against hypothetical BULLSHIT modeling and mythical probability graphs.
I’m in this line
So optimistic I fart sunshine and rainbows.
Giants Front Office....Torture!
by Giant Torture on Aug 16, 2010 2:31 PM PDT up reply actions
/searches for my name
I do not like Jose Guillen.
GROUGTHINK ALERT
"You all are just blinded to reality by your hatred of Armando just as the Bonds haters are." -grm
Base pads?
"I just struck out looking three times, but in any other ballpark those would have been home runs." - Aubrey Huff
by howtheyscored on Aug 16, 2010 2:05 PM PDT up reply actions
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FRf35wCmzWw
"I just struck out looking three times, but in any other ballpark those would have been home runs." - Aubrey Huff
by howtheyscored on Aug 16, 2010 2:10 PM PDT up reply actions
LOL
Dearest, Susan - The Patron Saint of Patience
by Lars The Wanderer on Aug 16, 2010 2:05 PM PDT up reply actions
It makes 0 sense whatsoever to have a mindset of “he could get hot”. Our in house options could get hot, too.
Sure, Guillen could go all Joe Carter on the rest of the NL. He could also go all Ricky Ledee on the Giants. More importantly, though, is that he’s most likely to go Jose Guillen on everybody. Because he’s Jose Guillen. You can’t justify trading for Ruben Rivera right now and say, “Oh, but he could hit ten homers before the end of the season!” He’s still Ruben Rivera, and you have to assume he’ll hit like Ruben Rivera.
That is the correct way to think about it.
by Missing Barry on Aug 16, 2010 2:14 PM PDT up reply actions
True...but it's a lottery ticket...
buy low hope for the best…
The question isn’t whether Jose Guillen is a good sign in the off-season…the questions are:
1) Did the Giants give up too much to get him (my answer is no)
2) Will he help the Giants win…that is what is up for debate
-Most people here thinks now because 1) he sucks and 2) he is taking away PAs from players who are better
-I think 1) he did suck…small chance of regaining his form and 2) Don’t really the people he is replacing (Ishi and Rowands) are better than him overall.
this is a poor analogy
in the lottery ticket, you have nothing to lose other than the dollar you pay for it.
the only part of this analogy that fits is the fact that guillen has a 0.000000000000000000005% of panning out. it is also inaccurate because it ignores the fact that guillen may end up costing us wins (the lottery ticket burns a hole in your pocket and your wallet falls out? i don’t know.)
I think it actually works
in the lottery ticket, youhave nothing to lose other than thealmost certain to lose the dollar you pay for it.
Same thing, the Giants had a dollar and now they’re almost certain to lose that dollar because Guillen will most likely suck and take away PA’s from other players who would have likely done better overall. It’s like buying a lottery ticket or putting a dollar in a savings account. The savings account won’t have huge returns, but you’ll still have your dollar.
So optimistic I fart sunshine and rainbows.
Giants Front Office....Torture!
by Giant Torture on Aug 16, 2010 2:34 PM PDT up reply actions
I guess I was going for the fact that Guillen is going to be a “negative” lottery ticket. IE they paid their dollar (the salary and the PTBNL) but I think the price they will end up paying, or production they will be losing out on, is going to be further costs on top of that dollar.
I think Ishi is a better play. I’d rather have Burrell/Torres/Huff with Ishi at 1B. Moving Huff to 1B is not a problem, but Guillen’s defense is enough reason not to like him in the lineup.
For all the arguments about the potential that Guillen may magically capture his “lightning in a bottle” that you make, the same applies to Rowand or Ishi (and may be even more applicable).
It's the same argument...
I actually would like to see Ishi in the lineup more (good progress this year but apparently high BABIP)…Guillen is better suited off the bench.
I agree that Rowand, Ishi, and Nate could also be “lightning in a bottle” in the next month or so…but I just don’t know…bringing in Guillen doesn’t negate that…
True...
Don’t want to see Guillen play 4-5 days…spot start and PH…
If Bochy does play him 4-5 days and Guillen sucks…I will join all of you…
Signs indicate that he will play most of the time in RF
And stats indicate that he will suck
I would like to talk to you about my pokemonz
You do realize that as an investment strategy, buying a lottery ticket and burning your dollar are virtually identical?
Utter frustration and futility.
Adopted 'nephew' to the ever avuncular and always awesome Jon Miller
by Johnny Disaster on Aug 16, 2010 2:23 PM PDT up reply actions
it's a tax on the inability to do math
and the money rolls in.
Mark DeRosa is playing exactly the same amount of professional baseball as his adopted father, these days.
buying a ticket or winning the lottery?
You can't solve your problems with the same level of thinking that created the problems - Albert Einstein to Brian Sabean
But again, the “hope for the best” thing applies to our other options, as well. Why do you not think Ishi/Rowand are better than him?
by Missing Barry on Aug 16, 2010 2:27 PM PDT up reply actions
They may be...
I am just not all that convinced…
Rowand is a decent CF who only plays CF apparently and lost his job to Burrell and Torres. Hitting wise…slightly worse than Guillen with less power.
Ishi is a good defensive player who is doing pretty well in PT but has been average hitter at best in the past.
Guillen is a below average to average fielder with some pop but no OBP…
To me, they’re about the same depending on what your criteria are…
They’re about the same except our defense is much better with either of the other two out there, our baserunning is likely better with the other two (which is saying a lot as neither are good baserunners), AND we can take advantage of platoon splits with either of them. Guillen has none of these things going for him. And of all those things, the one I believe subject to the least variation/luck is defense.
by Missing Barry on Aug 16, 2010 2:36 PM PDT up reply actions
Guillen’s 2010 WAR looks to me like it’s 0 once you take the measurement error from defensive stats into account. He has +1.5 fielding runs when he’s probably more like a -5 (or worse)….take those 6 runs away and you’re left with a replacement level player, which is precisely what I think Guillen is.
by Missing Barry on Aug 16, 2010 2:43 PM PDT up reply actions
You may be right...cuz I don't know the details as to how WAR is calculated
But I am not sure Ishi, Rowand, and Nate aren’t also at 0…so in the end…they’re about the same.
All 3 of them are above replacement level. That’s something I’m confident in. Especially if you can leverage a platoon advantage often.
by Missing Barry on Aug 16, 2010 3:06 PM PDT up reply actions
Better or a higher number? I haven’t looked at the plate appearances, but considering the fact that Rowand, Ishi and Nate have all been platoon players (to a certain extent) this year, their aggregate WAR numbers are incomparable to Guillen’s.
At least, that’s my understanding of it. I might be wrong.
Replacement runs is a good way to compare their PT. An average starter is around 1 WAR per 10 replacement runs of PT.
by Missing Barry on Aug 16, 2010 3:07 PM PDT up reply actions
Also
http://espn.go.com/mlb/powerrankings?season=2010&week=20
By trading for Jose Guillen, the Giants probably did more harm than good. Guillen’s past three years on offense have been bad (.256/.307/.419), and he’s a liability on defense. (Chris Quick, Bay City Ball)
I’m waiting for the Guillen hate mail to roll in.
Ask me about my blog.
/pie chart
Giant Dirtbags: John Bowker, Steve Hammond, Brian Anderson.
Jeremy Affeldt induces strained obliques
by Giant among Angels on Aug 16, 2010 1:36 PM PDT up reply actions
I tend to get a lot of ‘not a real fan’ and ‘why do you hate the Giants’ type of emails.
Ask me about my blog.
JUST ENJOY THE GAME
Jonathan Sanchez: Often maddening to watch, but capable of perfection on a moment's notice---just like his adoptive father.
“Oh. You don’t love every move THE BRASS makes? You’re stupid and I hate you.”
Ask me about my blog.
I want to read these. Has there been a very noticeable change in volume and quality of the e-mails with ESPN?
Maybe slightly up. My pageviews are crazy high now. I get a ton of people who register for the site but not a lot of commentors … yet. Most people remain very nice.
Ask me about my blog.
Then you haven’t made it yet. You’ll know that you have when your comment sections turns into a cesspool of stupidity.
Jonathan Sanchez: Often maddening to watch, but capable of perfection on a moment's notice---just like his adoptive father.
That's your blog?
I comment on there from time to time, enjoy the stuff you do.
So optimistic I fart sunshine and rainbows.
Giants Front Office....Torture!
by Giant Torture on Aug 16, 2010 2:07 PM PDT up reply actions
/looks, nods
Utter frustration and futility.
Adopted 'nephew' to the ever avuncular and always awesome Jon Miller
by Johnny Disaster on Aug 16, 2010 2:09 PM PDT up reply actions
Oh, I’ll also have a guest post up on Neyer’s blog 8/20 about the Giants. So check it out haterzzzz.
Ask me about my blog.
/cancels MCC Insider Subscription
/signs up for Bay City Ball: Private Gold
"I could hear the angry MCC cacophany in my head."--Oldjacket, 7/4/10
I charge 1,000 McCovey Bucks for my branding consultations.
"I could hear the angry MCC cacophany in my head."--Oldjacket, 7/4/10
Do you allow sex in the champagne room at Private Gold?
Utter frustration and futility.
Adopted 'nephew' to the ever avuncular and always awesome Jon Miller
by Johnny Disaster on Aug 16, 2010 1:53 PM PDT up reply actions
That’s not as enticing as what I was imagining.
Utter frustration and futility.
Adopted 'nephew' to the ever avuncular and always awesome Jon Miller
by Johnny Disaster on Aug 16, 2010 1:57 PM PDT up reply actions
I’d hit it…..again.
Dearest, Susan - The Patron Saint of Patience
by Lars The Wanderer on Aug 16, 2010 1:59 PM PDT up reply actions
I don’t comment because of the registration.
by Missing Barry on Aug 16, 2010 2:28 PM PDT up reply actions
It’s easy enough. Take 2 seconds, sign up, make a comment and then get approved. If I don’t require registrations, I’ll get overrun by spambots.
Oh, the irony.
Ask me about my blog.
SOYLENT GREEN IS XANTHAN!
Utter frustration and futility.
Adopted 'nephew' to the ever avuncular and always awesome Jon Miller
by Johnny Disaster on Aug 16, 2010 2:45 PM PDT up reply actions
My mortgage needs a smaller penis
Dearest, Susan - The Patron Saint of Patience
by Lars The Wanderer on Aug 16, 2010 2:52 PM PDT up reply actions
I think I’ve registered before, I just don’t want to take the time to figure out my username and password ;)
by Missing Barry on Aug 16, 2010 2:43 PM PDT up reply actions
I’m waiting for the Guillen hate mail to roll in.
I hate him.
(not personally—I hate the logic that brought him here)
You can't solve your problems with the same level of thinking that created the problems - Albert Einstein to Brian Sabean
U HATIN =)
Still in despair.
"Use the stencil! Do it!"
konakona:「つかさに教われと...なんか非常に負けたような気がする。」
Shun Kakazu: MOAR JAPANESE PROSPECTS PLZ
by Zetsuboushita on Aug 16, 2010 5:31 PM PDT up reply actions
#267 on the all time list!
Utter frustration and futility.
Adopted 'nephew' to the ever avuncular and always awesome Jon Miller
by Johnny Disaster on Aug 16, 2010 1:53 PM PDT up reply actions
We’re lamenting Aaron Rowand’s lack of playing time?
I hate this team.
Fun fact: "Mota" is Bengali for "fat".
First I was all :D "lol"
Then I was all “OH LORD!” D:
Proud Adoptive Parent of Jesus Guzman, RHP. 2010 Line: 0 H, 2 BB, 0.00 ERA. CALL HIM UP!
Bochy: What’s this fancy stat here?
IT Guy: That’s how often they get on base. I do not know why you keep asking me, I am here to fix your server.
His lone skill is that, on average, he can hit about two more home runs every month than Aaron Rowand or Travis Ishikawa would if they were given the same number of at-bats.
That’s why I didn’t love this trade. The Giants were just fine with Huff in the outfield and Ish at 1st with Rowand playing every other day.
"Dodger fans aren’t happy when foul balls get into their section, because it interferes with their playing with the beachball"- Mike Krukow
and the 15 games over .500 prove it
His name is Bond, Brock Bond, and his adopted father? ME, any questions?
After watching that mess last night. Mr Merope and I looked at each other and at the same time said “I’m just not as into this since they made those ‘trades’.” If there was ever just once some indication of the front office making progress, or understanding how to effectively evaluate older players, but every season it’s the same old thing.
Then we were off on a tangent about how Nate and others must feel to constantly have your worth devalued. It’s like being passed up for a promotion time after time after time. It’s just frustrating to watch.
Then we were off on a tangent about how Nate and others must feel to constantly have your worth devalued. It’s like being passed up for a promotion time after time after time. It’s just frustrating to watch.
Has to be bad for morale. Plus, they’re constantly set up to fail.
Adopted Giant: Ryan Rohlinger (on loan from Shanghaijim).
Buster Posey: He knows the rules!
♥BARRY ZITO♥
I am feeling bad for Nate.
Proud Adoptive Parent of Jesus Guzman, RHP. 2010 Line: 0 H, 2 BB, 0.00 ERA. CALL HIM UP!
Bochy: What’s this fancy stat here?
IT Guy: That’s how often they get on base. I do not know why you keep asking me, I am here to fix your server.
apparently you guys are not familiar with the fact that the money lies in the RBIs
by FluLikeSymptoms on Aug 16, 2010 1:44 PM PDT reply actions
Brown to sign
"Dodger fans aren’t happy when foul balls get into their section, because it interferes with their playing with the beachball"- Mike Krukow
FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF
Jonathan Sanchez: Often maddening to watch, but capable of perfection on a moment's notice---just like his adoptive father.
Seems OK for a low first-rounder.
Jonathan Sanchez: Often maddening to watch, but capable of perfection on a moment's notice---just like his adoptive father.
Except
That next year’s class is so much deeper, I was hoping that he wouldn’t sign and they’d get a pick next year instead.
So optimistic I fart sunshine and rainbows.
Giants Front Office....Torture!
by Giant Torture on Aug 16, 2010 1:55 PM PDT up reply actions
We weren’t discussing the pick, just the money. I do wish he hadn’t signed, hence the FFFFFFFFF.
Jonathan Sanchez: Often maddening to watch, but capable of perfection on a moment's notice---just like his adoptive father.
yeah
I finished it for you, but it got buried.
So optimistic I fart sunshine and rainbows.
Giants Front Office....Torture!
by Giant Torture on Aug 16, 2010 1:56 PM PDT up reply actions
Might as well take the pick. Would the Giants really spend big with two #1 draft picks? Seems unlikely.
Ask me about my blog.
Agreed
They wouldn’t spend the money on two number 1 picks.
"Dodger fans aren’t happy when foul balls get into their section, because it interferes with their playing with the beachball"- Mike Krukow
why not just take the money from this year
and apply it to next year? that makes no sense
Sharlon Schoop - de favoriete Nederlandse honkbalspeler van McCovey Chronicles.
You always have to be one step ahead of your drunk friends
--Daisy Owl
# Astros – Michael Foltynewicz – Signed for $1.305MM
# Red Sox – Kolbrin Vitek – Agreed to sign for $1.359MM
# Twins – Alex Wimmers – Signed for $1.332MM
# Rangers – Kellin Deglan – Agreed to sign for $1MM
# Marlins – Christian Yelich – unsigned
# Giants – Gary Brown – unsigned
# Cardinals – Zack Cox – unsigned
# Rockies – Kyle Parker – unsigned
# Phillies – Jesse Biddle – Agreed to sign for $1.16MM
# Dodgers – Zach Lee – unsigned
# Angels – Cam Bedrosian – Signed for $1.116MM
# Angels – Chevez Clarke – Signed for $1.089MM
# Rays – Justin O’Conner – Signed for $1.025MM
# Yankees – Cito Culver – Signed for $954K
Looks about right to me, just based on the other signings around that pick.
P.T.F. Bat
/UUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKK
So optimistic I fart sunshine and rainbows.
Giants Front Office....Torture!
by Giant Torture on Aug 16, 2010 1:51 PM PDT up reply actions
I like his stance and swing. I don’t have a strawhat though so what do I know.
The Giants don’t fare well against pitchers.
From what I recall he’s not like Paul O’Neil where he’s all over the place, he just wiggles his knee like he’s hyperactive or has to take a pee.
The Giants don’t fare well against pitchers.
That .400 BA is sustainable!
"Baseball is a game filled with moments of anticipation. The ones who can keep their calm while heading in to a storm can make their mark on a season. And what happens in those moments is what turns mere men… in to Giants."
My Son
If they let him keep the aluminum bat.
So optimistic I fart sunshine and rainbows.
Giants Front Office....Torture!
by Giant Torture on Aug 16, 2010 1:55 PM PDT up reply actions
Mike Murphy will paint it
And Bochy will sneeze every time he makes contact to cover the ‘ping!’
"Baseball is a game filled with moments of anticipation. The ones who can keep their calm while heading in to a storm can make their mark on a season. And what happens in those moments is what turns mere men… in to Giants."
My Son
ok. so ive been asking to adopt brown since he’s been adopted and was told to wait until he signs. So can I have him now? pretty please?
"Life is like a grapefruit. Well, it's sort of orangy-yellow and dimpled on the outside, wet and squidgy in the middle. It's got pips inside, too. Oh, and some people have a half a one for breakfast."
by operation carrot on Aug 16, 2010 2:13 PM PDT up reply actions
What can you do for Brown?
You can't solve your problems with the same level of thinking that created the problems - Albert Einstein to Brian Sabean
ima go down to brown town face first
"Life is like a grapefruit. Well, it's sort of orangy-yellow and dimpled on the outside, wet and squidgy in the middle. It's got pips inside, too. Oh, and some people have a half a one for breakfast."
by operation carrot on Aug 16, 2010 2:57 PM PDT up reply actions
Once Belt passes his physical, we’ll find out.
Jonathan Sanchez: Often maddening to watch, but capable of perfection on a moment's notice---just like his adoptive father.
Heck, the Royals didn’t want him. Paid him to leave. Said, nope, not worth it. And somehow he can come to another team – one trying for the playoffs, no less – and start?
Looks like Sabean outstupided the stupidest GM in baseball.
Osiris, Lord of the Dead, and relief pitcher for the Fresno Grizzlies.
WHAT HAVE YOU DONE WITH GARFIELD?
Utter frustration and futility.
Adopted 'nephew' to the ever avuncular and always awesome Jon Miller
by Johnny Disaster on Aug 16, 2010 2:05 PM PDT up reply actions
I will always rec these.
Also known to haunt as theghostoftravisdenker and theaccidentalghostofsergioromo.
Adopted parent of good old Wendell, he tries so hard. You'll get a hit someday son!
by theghostofjasonellison on Aug 16, 2010 6:25 PM PDT up reply actions
absofuckinglutely grant
BTW, that’s the first time I’d seen that “triple”. Holy shit.
Extremely proud adoptive parent of Paul E. Stanley, who's mind is currently elsewhere
Thanks to roger
I've never been happier to have Crabs
/mentions fantasy baseball team
Man, I thought it was great
We’d already lost the game. Why not inject a welcome note of comedy.
Fulfilling your Gus Benusa needs since 2009!
by Giantsfan4life on Aug 16, 2010 2:13 PM PDT up reply actions
At first when they were showing him run the bases on the replay I thought they were using those new super slo-mo cameras.
by CrispinGloversBalls on Aug 16, 2010 2:18 PM PDT up reply actions
Somewhat OT:
This one blew me away. WFAN just announced that K-Rod tore a hand ligament (you know how already), and is out for the season.
Interesting to see if the Metsies try to get out of that contract, since he injured himself committing a misdemeanor (at best).
"It'll break your heart. It's designed to break your heart."
- A. Bartlett Giamatti
That's hilarious
The mets just avoided paying a closer who’s rapidly declining 17.5 million in 2012.
"The criticism was so brutal that Sabean was forced to declare, at a press conference, "I am not an idiot." Thus, the pattern of Sabean's relationship to his critics was established."
i've always hated that guy
his stupid fucking glasses and his stupid fucking windup.
Billy Hayes: His job is better than yours.
I'm dissapointed he got hurt
The mets continued to use him and try and pretend they were in contention and would have continued to do so in 2011. his 2012 option would have easily vested I’m surprised he didn’t pitch through injury the rest of the season considering he knows his careers over after this contract. I wanted to see the mess pay that contract and get ridiculed by the baseball world. Instead the mets will continue to be on national tv while idiots debate who their leader is.
"The criticism was so brutal that Sabean was forced to declare, at a press conference, "I am not an idiot." Thus, the pattern of Sabean's relationship to his critics was established."
Brian WIlson for Wilmer Flores and Jenrry Mejia. Go.
by BestHyperboleEver on Aug 16, 2010 4:45 PM PDT up reply actions
It is apparently being considered, since he injured himself in a non-game related situation.
I DON'T BELIEVE YOU
I tweet (more often than I blarg).
You think he is really injured? Or was this just a way to shut him down for the rest of the year?
Proud Adoptive Parent of Jesus Guzman, RHP. 2010 Line: 0 H, 2 BB, 0.00 ERA. CALL HIM UP!
Bochy: What’s this fancy stat here?
IT Guy: That’s how often they get on base. I do not know why you keep asking me, I am here to fix your server.
Well
LOL HIM then.
Proud Adoptive Parent of Jesus Guzman, RHP. 2010 Line: 0 H, 2 BB, 0.00 ERA. CALL HIM UP!
Bochy: What’s this fancy stat here?
IT Guy: That’s how often they get on base. I do not know why you keep asking me, I am here to fix your server.
There was no overreacting by the mccoven over the jose guillen "trade"
It was more a chorus of laughter and “I told you so” about the giants moronic brain dead front office that knows offense like the warriors do contending. The “I told you so’s” continued with statements of “he will play in right everyday for the rest of year”. While some mccoven were sarcastically saying that trying to stay sane over the sabeanistic signing we all knew it was the truth. Hours later the borkian announced his decision that “guillen will start in right 4 to 5 days a week” which in other words means LOOK AT THOSE ARE-BEE-EYE’S WE GOT OURSELVES THAT BIG BAT! There isn’t really much that can be said about this signing other than LOL BORK and LOL SABEAN.
"The criticism was so brutal that Sabean was forced to declare, at a press conference, "I am not an idiot." Thus, the pattern of Sabean's relationship to his critics was established."
Meet the new Brian Sabean, same as the old Brian Sabean….
by Missing Barry on Aug 16, 2010 3:08 PM PDT up reply actions
It's time for another installment of: LOL Facebook people!
On Jonathan Sanchez:
way to go sanchez, SO glad we held on to u around the trade deadline instead of picking up cory heart….good move sabian..
^^ that shit talking cost us the playoffs. sebean needs to trade that dumb fuck now.
On post-deadline trades (???):
if they could still get adam dunn, get him. the padres look good with tejada and ludwig
I would love to get Dunn, but where would you put him now that we have Guillen?
Billy Hayes: His job is better than yours.
Good god facebook is such a bastion of idiocy
by North Side Chicago Expatriate Giants Fan on Aug 16, 2010 3:00 PM PDT up reply actions
It’s also a bastion of me telling people how good my burger was.
"I just struck out looking three times, but in any other ballpark those would have been home runs." - Aubrey Huff
by howtheyscored on Aug 16, 2010 3:08 PM PDT up reply actions
It sounded delicious.
Utter frustration and futility.
Adopted 'nephew' to the ever avuncular and always awesome Jon Miller
by Johnny Disaster on Aug 16, 2010 3:10 PM PDT up reply actions
It was pretty delicious.
"I just struck out looking three times, but in any other ballpark those would have been home runs." - Aubrey Huff
by howtheyscored on Aug 16, 2010 3:12 PM PDT up reply actions
Big Bach
"Being a McCoven is like being a member of the Green party. It’s powerlessness is part of the appeal." - oldjacket
"Quiet you, I'm starting a meme." - Me
"You can shake a dozen glove men out of a tree, but the bat separates the men from the boys." - Washington Senators First baseman Dale Long
Proud papa to: Bill Schlough, Senior Vice President and Chief Information Officer, aka the IT guy.
this guy is just bitter.
to all giants fans that say their is no doubt we will win the division, that’s not true. and if you believe that, you’re stupid and in denialm and you guys are the reason giants fans are seen as some of the dumbest in baseball. i miss the stick. ever since we went to pac bell/at&t/some random name park, the yuppies took over and snuffed out the real fans. the padres are for real, and the next 8 games will decide our season. i was at yesterdays game and lincecum was terrible. if we make the playoffs, he needs to get his fucking shit together. and if we are in the playoffs, we need him to be on his game or it will be a short post season.
Billy Hayes: His job is better than yours.
yuppies are not real fans. that is true, I don’t even like baseball.
The Giants don’t fare well against pitchers.
i thought yuppies went away sometime in the early part of this century. everyone’s obsessed with hipsters now.
Billy Hayes: His job is better than yours.
Wait, I’m a hipster….
"IT'S POSEY, YOU IDIOT." - Jon Miller
Clayton Tanner, the Flying Squirrel!
by walkoff baltimore chop on Aug 16, 2010 3:21 PM PDT up reply actions
I am the ultimate arbiter of whether or not someone is a hipster
And I deem you not a hipster.
Billy Hayes: His job is better than yours.
Despite my hipster taste in music and clothes?
"IT'S POSEY, YOU IDIOT." - Jon Miller
Clayton Tanner, the Flying Squirrel!
by walkoff baltimore chop on Aug 16, 2010 3:26 PM PDT up reply actions
I don’t really know you other than here and tumblr, and you certainly don’t strike me as hipstery. I could be wrong, but I suspect I’m not. What I think is that our metrics of hipsterism are different.
Billy Hayes: His job is better than yours.
That could possibly be it. Although, I’ve also been told that I’m not the true definition of a hipster. Whatever that means.
"IT'S POSEY, YOU IDIOT." - Jon Miller
Clayton Tanner, the Flying Squirrel!
by walkoff baltimore chop on Aug 16, 2010 3:33 PM PDT up reply actions
I wouldn’t know a hipster if they walked up bit me. Do hipsters bite? Because then I might be able to identify one.
Utter frustration and futility.
Adopted 'nephew' to the ever avuncular and always awesome Jon Miller
by Johnny Disaster on Aug 16, 2010 3:35 PM PDT up reply actions
http://www.craveonline.com/entertainment/humor/article/how-do-i-know-if-i-am-a-hipster-71739
http://www.newser.com/story/67754/how-to-identify-hipsters-by-what-they-hate.html
Billy Hayes: His job is better than yours.
I do not qualify by the first article, and do by the second.
Therefore, the tie breaker is whether or not I live in Williamsburg; fortunately, I live in East Williamsburg…
…
…aw, fuck.
My son is Madison Bumgarner, the Invisible Shark of pitching prospects. My other son is a Porsche.
/orders a Fernet with a ginger back
You can't solve your problems with the same level of thinking that created the problems - Albert Einstein to Brian Sabean
I can assert that this mainly an SF hipster thing.
Don’t run across it much on the East Coast. But still, Fernet is about the most awful thing I’ve ever deejayed blacked out while behind turntables on.
My son is Madison Bumgarner, the Invisible Shark of pitching prospects. My other son is a Porsche.
you are too young to be a hipster
"Being a McCoven is like being a member of the Green party. It’s powerlessness is part of the appeal." - oldjacket
"Quiet you, I'm starting a meme." - Me
"You can shake a dozen glove men out of a tree, but the bat separates the men from the boys." - Washington Senators First baseman Dale Long
Proud papa to: Bill Schlough, Senior Vice President and Chief Information Officer, aka the IT guy.
I believe that Billy Corgan sang the lyric “hipsters unite…” before Chop was born
The Giants don’t fare well against pitchers.
Billy Corgan?! I have bongs older than Billy Corgan.
You can't solve your problems with the same level of thinking that created the problems - Albert Einstein to Brian Sabean
No kidding
Billy Corgan is really old, man.
I heard a Smashing Pumpkins song, saw that it came out in 1993 and realized that there is someone out there driving a car who was conceived to that song as soundtrack.
"Being a McCoven is like being a member of the Green party. It’s powerlessness is part of the appeal." - oldjacket
"Quiet you, I'm starting a meme." - Me
"You can shake a dozen glove men out of a tree, but the bat separates the men from the boys." - Washington Senators First baseman Dale Long
Proud papa to: Bill Schlough, Senior Vice President and Chief Information Officer, aka the IT guy.
I am?
"IT'S POSEY, YOU IDIOT." - Jon Miller
Clayton Tanner, the Flying Squirrel!
by walkoff baltimore chop on Aug 16, 2010 3:42 PM PDT up reply actions
…and there’s no way ANYBODY would consider me young any more.
Along these lines, I like to tell people here in the Mission when they talk about gentrification:
“I am the face of gentrification—you thought it was going to be better groomed didn’t ya?”
You can't solve your problems with the same level of thinking that created the problems - Albert Einstein to Brian Sabean
by bgunn on Aug 16, 2010 3:16 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
best part of this
“you’re stupid”
In all it’s uncapitalized and poorly grammaticized glory, he managed to use the correct “you’re”.
"Being a McCoven is like being a member of the Green party. It’s powerlessness is part of the appeal." - oldjacket
"Quiet you, I'm starting a meme." - Me
"You can shake a dozen glove men out of a tree, but the bat separates the men from the boys." - Washington Senators First baseman Dale Long
Proud papa to: Bill Schlough, Senior Vice President and Chief Information Officer, aka the IT guy.
lol
Murphry’s Law!
"Being a McCoven is like being a member of the Green party. It’s powerlessness is part of the appeal." - oldjacket
"Quiet you, I'm starting a meme." - Me
"You can shake a dozen glove men out of a tree, but the bat separates the men from the boys." - Washington Senators First baseman Dale Long
Proud papa to: Bill Schlough, Senior Vice President and Chief Information Officer, aka the IT guy.
bitter about what?
"No matter what you do, you're gonna die brotha." ~~ Desmond Hume
by All Things SD on Aug 16, 2010 11:11 PM PDT up reply actions
Base pads!

Dearest, Susan - The Patron Saint of Patience
by Lars The Wanderer on Aug 16, 2010 3:09 PM PDT reply actions
It's not in the stats, nerdz
The Giants acquired Guillen because they feel he underperformed playing these last few years with a lousy team. They also know he was playing under the security of a long term contract and now he’s playing for a new one. For these reasons they feel he will be rejeuvanated and play the best ball of his career. That’s why when they acquired him they pointed out his performance in the 2003 playoffs. Who’s right, McCoven or Sabean? I don’t know, ask me in October.
Buster Posey: Let's enjoy him before he goes to the Yankees.
by rxmeister on Aug 16, 2010 3:13 PM PDT via mobile reply actions
TWO THOUSAND AND THREE
"I just struck out looking three times, but in any other ballpark those would have been home runs." - Aubrey Huff
by howtheyscored on Aug 16, 2010 3:14 PM PDT up reply actions
That’s why when they acquired him they pointed out his performance in the 2003 playoffs
Doesn’t this reasoning appear stupid to you? They pointed to a small sample 7 years ago as justification?
Dearest, Susan - The Patron Saint of Patience
by Lars The Wanderer on Aug 16, 2010 3:14 PM PDT up reply actions
Of course it strikes me as being ridiculous. The rest of it contains some logic though. I’d be shocked if he’s not an improvement over Ishi and Rowand though. Ishi has some value as a pinch hitter and defensive replacement, but Rowand is useless.
Buster Posey: Let's enjoy him before he goes to the Yankees.
by rxmeister on Aug 16, 2010 3:20 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions
Is this THE rxmeister of alt.sports.baseball.sf-giants fame?
Wow, cool. I miss you guys. I stopped posting right around when Comcast wanted to charge me for newsgroup access. I didn’t recognize too many other handles here.
For these reasons they feel he will be rejeuvanated and play the best ball of his career.
Oh, well in that case…
THEY ARE TERRIBLE EVALUATORS.
Adopted Giant: Ryan Rohlinger (on loan from Shanghaijim).
Buster Posey: He knows the rules!
♥BARRY ZITO♥
Whoops, reply fail.
Adopted Giant: Ryan Rohlinger (on loan from Shanghaijim).
Buster Posey: He knows the rules!
♥BARRY ZITO♥
rx’d
Utter frustration and futility.
Adopted 'nephew' to the ever avuncular and always awesome Jon Miller
by Johnny Disaster on Aug 16, 2010 3:22 PM PDT up reply actions
lulz in context.
"I just struck out looking three times, but in any other ballpark those would have been home runs." - Aubrey Huff
by howtheyscored on Aug 16, 2010 3:23 PM PDT up reply actions
Poetic rxstice.
Utter frustration and futility.
Adopted 'nephew' to the ever avuncular and always awesome Jon Miller
by Johnny Disaster on Aug 16, 2010 3:24 PM PDT up reply actions
Yeah. Um, I did it on purpose. For the lulz. That’s right.
Adopted Giant: Ryan Rohlinger (on loan from Shanghaijim).
Buster Posey: He knows the rules!
♥BARRY ZITO♥
and by the way, I have no clue who rxmeister of alt sports comcast whatever you call it is. Get me his real name so my lawyer can get in touch with him, because he’s obviously using my name for fame and fortune.
Buster Posey: Let's enjoy him before he goes to the Yankees.
by rxmeister on Aug 16, 2010 3:31 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions
There is some howtheyscored trolling my name on extrabaggs or something. >:(
"I just struck out looking three times, but in any other ballpark those would have been home runs." - Aubrey Huff
by howtheyscored on Aug 16, 2010 3:32 PM PDT up reply actions
There was an “I hate jponry” over there for a few days.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"Out, out, Fred Lewis!" - JCTillam Gamerspeare
wut?
"I just struck out looking three times, but in any other ballpark those would have been home runs." - Aubrey Huff
by howtheyscored on Aug 16, 2010 3:34 PM PDT up reply actions
Was it around that time you reported that Sabes said that thing that he later said he didn’t say? You may have your answer
Giant Dirtbags: John Bowker, Steve Hammond, Brian Anderson.
Jeremy Affeldt induces strained obliques
by Giant among Angels on Aug 16, 2010 6:33 PM PDT up reply actions
Yeah, well I’m not the same Angelo who lauded Baker and Sabean after the 2000 regular season, either.
Does the rxmeister over there constantly reply in the wrong place at the wrong time? Didn’t think so, not me.
Buster Posey: Let's enjoy him before he goes to the Yankees.
by rxmeister on Aug 16, 2010 3:45 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions
The reply thing thing has got me tired
I wanted to ask each of you to lay out:
The worst, best, and expected scenario you think that Guillen trade will result in and put a percentage to that…not trying to be snarky or attacking…just want to know where people stand
I think:
Best case scenario (5 percent): Guillen hits .275-.290 with a OBP of .320-.350, SLG .400-.450, hits 8-10 homers and drives in 20-30 runs. Giants makes it into playoff by overtaking SD and wins the division by 3 games. “Helps” Giants win 1-3 games.
Worst case scenario(5 percent): Guillen hits .240/.300/.325, 1 homer, 5-10 RBIs…makes errors in the OF…costs the Giants 1-3 games
Likely outcome (40-60 percent): Guillen hits .260/.325/.375-.400, 3-5 homers, 10-15 RBIs, is bad but not horrible in RF…becomes PH/DH…cost/helps Giants 1 game.
That is 50 to 70 percent total.
"I just struck out looking three times, but in any other ballpark those would have been home runs." - Aubrey Huff
by howtheyscored on Aug 16, 2010 3:30 PM PDT up reply actions
Best: .295/.322/.562 with 7 dingerz
Worst: .113/.200/.151 with 2 doubles
Likely: .248/.275/.415 with terrible defense
The Giants don’t fare well against pitchers.
with terrible defense
This is what bothers me the most.
Adopted Giant: Ryan Rohlinger (on loan from Shanghaijim).
Buster Posey: He knows the rules!
♥BARRY ZITO♥
"2 doubles"
Why aren’t you predicting any triples?
Buster Posey: Let's enjoy him before he goes to the Yankees.
by rxmeister on Aug 16, 2010 3:33 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions
Agreed. A bad hitter can get hot and a good hitter can go cold, but you don’t just suddenly lose or gain range for small sample performances….
by Missing Barry on Aug 16, 2010 6:43 PM PDT up reply actions
yeah but
you can get lucky with balls in play
Sharlon Schoop - de favoriete Nederlandse honkbalspeler van McCovey Chronicles.
You always have to be one step ahead of your drunk friends
--Daisy Owl
Most likely, by the time the balls are in play you are well on the way to having gotten lucky.
Utter frustration and futility.
Adopted 'nephew' to the ever avuncular and always awesome Jon Miller
by Johnny Disaster on Aug 17, 2010 11:07 AM PDT up reply actions
In what way? I can see that a little bit, but not to a large degree…
by Missing Barry on Aug 17, 2010 5:16 PM PDT up reply actions
Best: 1.000/1.000/1.000
Worst: .000/.000/.000
Likely: .240/.285/.430, starting job next season.
I'm thinking but nothing's happening.
LOL
I actually envisioned the whole Sabean press conference last night imagining their signing of Guillen in the off-season. I think I was thinking back to the Niner’s signing of Lawrence Phillips.
1.000/1.000/4.000 would be best!
My mind ain't nuthin' but a total blank, I think I'll just stay here and draaank - Merle Haggard
by NuschlerFace on Aug 16, 2010 3:53 PM PDT up reply actions
You know, I totally realized before posting this that I should probably look up the calculation for SLG before looking like a doofus. I probably, you know… Should have actually done that.
Yes, 1.000/1.000/4.000 would be the best case scenario.
I'm thinking but nothing's happening.
And 3 year, 29 million dollar contract
"You can always recover from the player you didn't sign. You may never recover from the player you signed at the wrong price." --Billy Beane
"I am not an idiot."--Brian Sabean
by Sabean's_Folly on Aug 16, 2010 7:48 PM PDT up reply actions
I disliked the trade at the time, when I thought that Guillen was going to come off the bench.
Then I found out he was starting and I disliked it even more.
Then I saw that he has the mobility of Bengie Molina and my brain almost leaked out my ears.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"Out, out, Fred Lewis!" - JCTillam Gamerspeare
by jponry on Aug 16, 2010 3:22 PM PDT reply actions 1 recs
For a lottery game that has been defunct since 2007 and just bled ink all over your slacks.
by BestHyperboleEver on Aug 16, 2010 4:51 PM PDT up reply actions
Not to mention that the ink was infected with the E-boli bacteria, and now your flesh is rotting away.
"You can always recover from the player you didn't sign. You may never recover from the player you signed at the wrong price." --Billy Beane
"I am not an idiot."--Brian Sabean
by Sabean's_Folly on Aug 16, 2010 7:49 PM PDT up reply actions
I know you were not asking me, but they were as productive as his last one, coupled with the defense we have every reason to expect…
You can't solve your problems with the same level of thinking that created the problems - Albert Einstein to Brian Sabean
Did you actually read my post?
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"Out, out, Fred Lewis!" - JCTillam Gamerspeare
I did...maybe I misinterpreted it...
My understanding was that you don’t like the trade because you believe that Guillen is less of a player than you first started…
you believe that Guillen is less of a player than you first started…
I don’t even know what this means.
"I just struck out looking three times, but in any other ballpark those would have been home runs." - Aubrey Huff
by howtheyscored on Aug 16, 2010 3:29 PM PDT up reply actions
I think it means that, now that she saw how slow he is, she’s even more horrified by the trade.
Why that means jponry would still hate the trade if Guillen went 1-3 with a double in every game, I have no idea.
Adopted Giant: Ryan Rohlinger (on loan from Shanghaijim).
Buster Posey: He knows the rules!
♥BARRY ZITO♥
Yes, that's what I meant to say...
My point is if Guillen goes 1 for 3 with a double every game…plays the same defense but is much slower that one thought…why would that be a bad pickup?
That’s a big fucking if.
"I just struck out looking three times, but in any other ballpark those would have been home runs." - Aubrey Huff
by howtheyscored on Aug 16, 2010 3:32 PM PDT up reply actions
Also, you’re evaluating the trade retroactively before any of that retroactive shit has happened.
Don’t start by projecting positive outcomes. Start by projecting likely outcomes.
Therefore, assume that Jose Guillen is Jose Guillen.
And Jose Guillen is NOT a career .333 hitter.
"I just struck out looking three times, but in any other ballpark those would have been home runs." - Aubrey Huff
by howtheyscored on Aug 16, 2010 3:33 PM PDT up reply actions
I'm not projecting anything...
Jponry is stating the negatives from yesterday…I am just stating the positives.
I will get back to this discussion in one week or so.
You’re saying that it will be a good trade if he hits .333 for the rest of the season. That’s projecting.
"I just struck out looking three times, but in any other ballpark those would have been home runs." - Aubrey Huff
by howtheyscored on Aug 16, 2010 3:36 PM PDT up reply actions
I’m not stating the negatives, I’m giving my opinion on the topic. Yes, he hit a double, which was nice to see. But responding to my concerns with, “SO IF HE REPLICATES THIS GAME FOR THE REST OF THE SEASON, YOU’LL STILL HATE THE TRADE?” is a complete and utter strawman.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"Out, out, Fred Lewis!" - JCTillam Gamerspeare
Okay...
But your opinion of the trade dropped even more because he was slow yesterday without acknowledging that he did hit a legitimate double…
Yeah, but WE KNEW that he was capable of occasionally hitting doubles. We didn’t know that he was Molina-Slow. The information that we were aware of does not change our opinions. The new information which we did not previously know informs our opinions in new ways. Christ.
"I just struck out looking three times, but in any other ballpark those would have been home runs." - Aubrey Huff
by howtheyscored on Aug 16, 2010 3:41 PM PDT up reply actions
Interestingly, let's just say Guillen = Molina offensively
Is that bad? I’d say he’ll be 2009 Molina bad (hopefully not 2010 bad).
"You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means" - Inigo Montoya
I’m going to go ahead and assume that he is Jose Guillen offensively.
"I just struck out looking three times, but in any other ballpark those would have been home runs." - Aubrey Huff
by howtheyscored on Aug 16, 2010 3:44 PM PDT up reply actions
I'm willing to give him the Philly series...
If he can’t hit in that bandbox, he’s probably useless to us.
"You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means" - Inigo Montoya
This is my point...
the only thing we have seen from him thus far is
1 for 4 with 1 SO and 1 2B…slow then expected.
Honest question (did not watch the whole game)…did his lack of speed hurt the Giants in any way?
Uh, we also have 1600+ career games at a 99 OPS+ and 342 games over the last three years at a 94 OPS+.
And his lack of speed didn’t hurt the Giants yesterday, necessarily (although it did cost them a baserunner, because I think most people DO get a triple on that ball). But it very well could and it doesn’t take a whole lot of extrapolation to think that it might.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"Out, out, Fred Lewis!" - JCTillam Gamerspeare
He hit a legitimate double and was too dumb to stop at 2nd.
“I hit it near that triples alley place…I get to go to third.”
God directly to third. Do not pass go. Do not collect $200.
"I just struck out looking three times, but in any other ballpark those would have been home runs." - Aubrey Huff
by howtheyscored on Aug 16, 2010 4:45 PM PDT up reply actions
God holds the original monopoly.
"I just struck out looking three times, but in any other ballpark those would have been home runs." - Aubrey Huff
by howtheyscored on Aug 16, 2010 4:50 PM PDT up reply actions
A cheesecake so delicious that he himself could not eat it.
"I just struck out looking three times, but in any other ballpark those would have been home runs." - Aubrey Huff
by howtheyscored on Aug 16, 2010 4:57 PM PDT up reply actions
We don’t speak about what he does do with them, though.
"I just struck out looking three times, but in any other ballpark those would have been home runs." - Aubrey Huff
by howtheyscored on Aug 16, 2010 4:58 PM PDT up reply actions
The funny thing is that if you project likely outcomes, you’re being unfair and you’re wrong, because you haven’t given Guillen a chance.
If you project unlikely outcomes, like Guillen being made of unicorns and rainbows, totally fine.
Adopted Giant: Ryan Rohlinger (on loan from Shanghaijim).
Buster Posey: He knows the rules!
♥BARRY ZITO♥
I have never said anyone is wrong
Unfair…maybe…but definitely not wrong..
My question to all of you is why the emotions over the trade (I mean it made Grant sad)…realistically…what is the worst that Guillen is going to do to the team?
http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=1407&position=OF
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"Out, out, Fred Lewis!" - JCTillam Gamerspeare
Okay...so we get Rick Ledee (although I am not sure which year you are referring to)
and he sucks…meh…
The year where he was a Giant and cost the team almost a full win in just 30 odd games? And the Giants missed the playoffs by, like, oh, a game?
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"Out, out, Fred Lewis!" - JCTillam Gamerspeare
Emotional: people relying on statistic after statistic to explain why a player is not good.
Not emotional: Complaining that people aren’t being fair to a major league FO and GM when they use statistic after statistic to explain why a player is not good.
Adopted Giant: Ryan Rohlinger (on loan from Shanghaijim).
Buster Posey: He knows the rules!
♥BARRY ZITO♥
Whoa whoa whoa, reign in your emotions, young padawan! No need to go all crazy on us with your emotional outbursts!
I'm thinking but nothing's happening.
CALM DOWN
Adopted Giant: Ryan Rohlinger (on loan from Shanghaijim).
Buster Posey: He knows the rules!
♥BARRY ZITO♥
That’s better! See? Now you aren’t blaming the front office for a bad trade. NOW you have harnessed your emotions.
I'm thinking but nothing's happening.
Using Jose Guillen as a full-time RF is terrible
He’s got like a league-average bat, which is ok I guess for a pinch hitter but nothing to write home about. And he’s taking up a roster space, which is always valuable.
Aaron King is still my homeboy... iffy mechanics and all
McFAQ for all you newcomers out there.
WOULD YOU EAT THE MOON IF IT WERE MADE OF RIBS??
Why couldn't McCovey have hit the ball just three feet higher?
Cold, though.
"I just struck out looking three times, but in any other ballpark those would have been home runs." - Aubrey Huff
by howtheyscored on Aug 16, 2010 6:12 PM PDT up reply actions
Beef or Pork?
"You can always recover from the player you didn't sign. You may never recover from the player you signed at the wrong price." --Billy Beane
"I am not an idiot."--Brian Sabean
by Sabean's_Folly on Aug 16, 2010 7:53 PM PDT up reply actions
cerval cat
"Being a McCoven is like being a member of the Green party. It’s powerlessness is part of the appeal." - oldjacket
"Quiet you, I'm starting a meme." - Me
"You can shake a dozen glove men out of a tree, but the bat separates the men from the boys." - Washington Senators First baseman Dale Long
Proud papa to: Bill Schlough, Senior Vice President and Chief Information Officer, aka the IT guy.
…because he’s not going to go 1 for 3 with a double in every game, are you kidding me?
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"Out, out, Fred Lewis!" - JCTillam Gamerspeare
My point is if Guillen goes 1 for 3 with a double every game…plays the same defense but is much slower that one thought…why would that be a bad pickup?
She never said that.
Adopted Giant: Ryan Rohlinger (on loan from Shanghaijim).
Buster Posey: He knows the rules!
♥BARRY ZITO♥
TNWSS
Utter frustration and futility.
Adopted 'nephew' to the ever avuncular and always awesome Jon Miller
by Johnny Disaster on Aug 16, 2010 3:33 PM PDT up reply actions

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