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The Giants: Yet Another (and Looong) Mid-Term Report Card

Let's begin at the team level, then discuss individual men.

Star-divide

First, how much has luck affected results? Luck can work at two levels: games won from runs scored and allowed, and runs resulting from the on-field performance. On the games-won front, the Giants have had remarkably little effect either way. Calculating from actual runs scored and allowed, the team was perhaps 2 games under expectations; but figuring from calculated runs scored and allowed, which is a hair more accurate for reckoning future trends than actual runs, the team was almost perfectly on expectations. Then how about the runs themselves? Again, very little effect from luck: the runs scored are almost exactly correct to the run, and while the runs allowed are about 30 below calculations, most of that is probably from the Giants well-above-average defensive performance (second in the league to San Diego, whose extraordinary fielding helps explain their pitching performance). In short, luck--of either kind--is not much affecting the team's stats.

Next, still at the team level, we must ask how performance has compared to reasonable expectations. By "reasonable expectations", we will here use just projections from the players' career histories. (Note that those include 2010 data, so for players like Posey the "projections" essentially are their actual data.) For batting, the full (and current) pro-rated projections can be seen here, but the key points are these: first, the run-scoring value is virtually exactly as projected; second, the team line stats differ somewhat from projections in a systematic way ("systematic" in that the individual men's lines tend strongly to the same pattern), that being more walks with, of course, correspondingly fewer at-bats and so fewer hits and total bases, with the net just about balancing out as far as run-scoring goes. The key rate stats look like this:

Stat  	 Actual 	 Projected
Batting Average: .259 .265
Slugging Average: .400 .410
Walks (per PA): .081 .065
SOs (per PA): .170 .173
On-Base Average: .319 .313
Power Factor: 1.55 1.55
OPS: .719 .723
TOP Runs (to date): 344 346

I don't yet have comparably exact data for the pitching staff, but a rough estimate--based on hand-made calculations--is that the results are also very close to projections, within perhaps a few runs at most. So the long and the short of it is that at the team level, for the playing time allocated to the various men, the team's results are very, very close to what one would calculate based just on histories.

A note on projections from career histories: the traditional "sabermetric" estimate of peak-performance age has been 29; more recently, some have suggested ages as low as 26, but in my opinion the work by J. C. Bradbury of the Sabernomics site has pretty well verified that age. While the age/performance curve looks roughly parabolic, if we simplify with a linear approximation, and are willing to accept broad-brush generalities, the falloff for each year either side of the peak is perhaps 1% a year. A player who is 30 is thus at--in our approximation--typically at 99% of his peak; but his career data, assuming he came up at age 25, would indicate about 98%, so it actually, if slightly, under-represents his abilities. At age 31, he would be expected to be at 98%, while his career data would by then suggest the same value, so that he is well represented by those data. At 32, he is very slightly over-represented, 98% vs an actual 97%, and so on. But, while he is overstated once he is beyond 32, it is only by a very slight amount, because the running post-peak years bring the career totals down. In short, career-to-date stats are a pretty good indicator of true ability at almost any age.

Now let's look man by man, starting with the batters. For convenience, it's arranged by position, using the nominal occupant of that position.

1B: Aubrey Huff -- is thought to be having an amazingly over-expectations season. In actuality, the big change for him--as for many other Giants batters this year--is a significantly increased walks rate. In 332 PA, he had 10 walks over projection, which is a good bit (3% extra on the walks rate). Meanwhile, his hits and extra-base hits are very much in line with his prior work, though the 2 extra triples, artifacts of Park-of-many-Names, help the totals. But the shrinkage in at-bats makes the batting average--always a poor stat anyway--look artificially inflated for a roughly unchanged number of hits. Huff's overall numbers are very nice indeed, and their being rooted in career expectations save for the walks, which we hope are a result of BamBam's work, means that they may well be reasonably sustainable. With the Giants' best 1B prospect, Belt, being likely a full year away, it would behoove the team to re-sign Huff, even to a modestly multi-year deal, to bridge the gap to Belt, because Huff will probably have good trade value even by the time Belt is expected. (Incidentally, his BABIP is at exactly his career average.)

2B: Freddy Sanchez -- another man with substantially over-projections walks: an extra 6 in 179 PA, for an extra 3+% on his walks rate. But, at least at the mid-season point, his hits are down, and his overall offense value not really good. That is probably just chance (though his BABIP is almost exactly at career levels). At his career norms, FSanchez is a decent but not outstanding hitter for a middle infielder. Whether Brock Bond is a viable candidate for a starting major-league role is still much debated; he probably deserves a long look in 2011, because if he can't cut it, the Giants need to string FSanchez out as long as possible, which might be for as much as two or three years.

SS: Edgar Renteria -- for some reason, Renteria is an anti-favorite around here, and his current slump, even if brief, isn't helping convert anyone. Nonetheless, right now Renteria is an average defender at SS (the various fielding stats agree on that) and an above-average bat for a middle infielder, with 2010 stats very much in line with career projections right down the line. If Crawford, the heir apparent, is the goods, Renteria can be a bridge to him, and the Giants should exercise Renteria's 2011 option, but that's pretty much the limit. If Crawford is not the goods, the Giants have most of 2011 to find a successor to Renteria.

3B: Pablo Sandoval -- it is no secret that the Panda is performing far below expectations. Curiously, for all his flailing about, he was actually 2 walks over projections at mid-season, and correspondingly 2 strikeouts under; the bad news is not just that his power factor (TB/H) is down by a significant 6%, but that his formerly amazing BABIP--the core of his success in the past--has dropped from the .350 range to .287. The crux is whether that .350 (and .353 in 2008) was an illusion, however long-lasting, or whether he is just going through a phase now. There have to be some questions about his vision and the methods, which seem to vary by the day if not the inning, of correcting it (contacts, spectacles, goggles), which may have something to do with matters; and having his manager tell him, in nearly these words, "Screw plate discipline, just keep hacking" surely can't be helping matters. Basically, at least for the immediate future, as Panda's bat goes, so goes the Giants' offense. All we can do is wait and hope.

C: Buster Posey -- while he is everyone's darling, and clearly sound defensively (yes, Bruce, really he is), his offense right now is not what some seem to think. His walks rate iat the mid-point was an abysmal 3.5%, and his power factor that of a singles/doubles hitter (with the occasional long ball), not at all notable. His batting average was decent, but with a .324 BABIP. His overall net offense was decent, sound enough for a good catcher, but scarcely remarkable. None of that is to say much, based on 126 PAs not a few of which were not as a starter, about his long-term likely performance, but it would be wise not to think of him as the franchise bat, because--as many have noted--he is just not that kind of hitter: good for a catcher, yes, no doubt, but not Babe Posey.

LF: Pat Burrell -- he has clearly taken over as the regular LF for the team. At the mid-point, he was over-performing, but not, in count numbers, by very much: 5 extra hits (and with 3 fewer walks). Looking to his career stats as more indicative, he is a really good hitter, well more than enough to make up for his lack of speed (and he at least has ball sense and can usually catch what he can get to and--unlike some not so far away--usually has a good idea of where to throw the ball). If Thomas Neal can be ready in a year or thereabouts, Burrell is (like his friend Huff) a good candidate for a re-signing to act as a bridge to the prospect and still have decent trade value at that time. Right now, he, Huff, and Torres pretty nearly are the Giants offense.

CF: Andres Torres -- As I kept saying through much of last year (not to speak of the early part of this year), Torres is rather obviously the real goods, and is right now one of the three key pieces of the team's batting (aside from his fielding, about which little need be said). Installed in leadoff, he has jacked his walks rate, though at some cost to his power numbers (he can really drive a ball if he allows himself a "yucka-doo swing", which he does much less often this year). Right now, he is performing in overall worth at about 85% to 90% of last year's stats, which is about what one would expect, and is absolute gold for a CF with his glove skills. Fortunately, he seems a very young 32--"fortunately" because the Giants' best CF prospect (Peguero, if I believe what I read) is still dubious and in any event some ways away; the Giants need to re-sign Torres to something like a 3-year deal.

RF: Nate Schierholtz -- he is the RF more or less by default. This is clearly the Giants' biggest hole: even if Schierholtz could hit as he was doing during the stretch earlier this year when he was playing steadily, he would best be used as the rotating fourth outfielder. What is really wanted--nay, needed--here is the sort of bat that John Bowker's admirers think he could deliver. As things have fallen out, I reckon that even strong Bowker skeptics (including me) by now feel that he deserves one last, long look before the team gives up and makes a trade (unless something really advantageous, such as a Wheeler-for-X deal, with X a very big-bat/decent-glove 25-year-oldm turns up). Meanwhile, Schierholtz urgently needs more steady playing time if he is not to lose his skills for the rest of the season (and possibly get a possible career short-circuited).

Other Position Players:

Aaron Rowand: I've said it before, and I still say it--Rowand was never a terribly good bat, but there is something flat-out wrong with him. He is, in 237 PAs, off his norms by 7 hits and 5 walks, and that is how it's been since he got to San Francisco. But at this point, apparently neither he nor the organization has any idea what's wrong ("just a slump"), much less how to fix it, and he has turned into the second coming of Bengie Molina, a totally deadweight anchor on the team (who can't even catch the ball very well any more). For the good of the team, Rowand needs to get approximately zero plate appearances from here on out.

Juan Uribe: he is another one of those surprising walkin' fools: at the mid-point he was, in 306 PAs, a full dozen walks ahead of projection, an extra 4% on his walks rate, which is just jaw-dropping. As with Huff, it is the corresponding shrinkage in at-bats that makes his batting average look swollen, whereas in reality he was actually 3 hits under projections. It is his 5% jack in power factor that is probably the least sustainable part of his game (though it's actually not much above his 2009 PF). With his ability to play three IF positions somewhere from decently to well, Uribe's bat makes him both valuable and difficult to replace. Whether the Giants need to re-sign him--which may not be easy and will likely be expensive--depends in good part on whether DeRosa can be expected to be back at 100% of his former self for 2011; DeRosa can play SS well enough to take it once a week, which is all that is needed from the Uribe-type player, and he can play 3B and 2B well enough, too. Players with that versatility are extremely helpful, and one or the other of those two needs to be part of the team for a while to come. Considering ages and glove skills, I'd vote for re-upping Uribe for 2 or even 3 years.

Eli Whiteside: if the Giants would remember that Pablo Sandoval is a pretty good major-league catcher, and give him a couple of days a week behind the plate spelling Posey (who could play 1B one of those two days, spelling Huff), Whiteside could revert to his proper role, a defensive backup third catcher. Wee sprats may not recall this, but once upon a time still within living memory, almost evey team carried three catchers, knowing how draining the position is. With a Posey good for the years, and a Sandoval presumably good for the years (and for whom part-time catching would be a real help with his weight), the Giants have the luxury of double-backing-up the spot with a Whiteside, whose ability to work with Posey and Sandoval on defense would probably be a big plus.

Mark DeRosa: as noted above, especially valuable owing to his versatility. Overall career stats are decent but not outstanding, and he was probably mis-cast as a corner outfielder. If the Giants stick to their best men, it's hard to find a use for DeRosa despite his real value, and if he can prove his health in early 2011 he is probably best traded away. Or he could be kept as the emergency 3rd SS (after Renteria/Crawford and Uribe), though he's costly for that role--still, it's sunk costs.

Travis Ishikawa: not a major-league corner bat. As to the value of a weak-bat/good-glove 1B, ask Skip James.

No one else who has played or might play this year seems worth comment.

Turning to pitching (here, we will be a little less quantitative and more qualitative, but there are numbers underlying the ideas):

Assuming that Bumgarner is now solidly welded into the rotation, it looks awfully strong. So far, Lincecum's numbers are down a bit from projections (and, we hope, just in a flukey manner), but Cain's are up by a little more, and that about evens out; JSanchez is, unsurprisingly, far ahead of projections, but we all hope that that is sustainable owing to his having turned the proverbial corner in his career.

The bullpen has been made to seem shakier than it is by a combination of two things: some guys each going through a fairly brief bad spell and several guys who absolutely, positively should never have been there. If we pull out the best performers, looking for a 7-man pen, we easily get (alphabetically): Affeldt, Martinez, Mota, Ray, Romo, Runzler, and Wilson. What that means is none of Bautista, Casilla, Joaquin (at least for now), Medders (once and possibly still useful, but now superseded by the younger and probably better Martinez), and--of course--Wellemeyer (what were they dreaming of?). A few words about the pen lads (again alphabetically):

Jeremy Affeldt: he had a rough stretch, possibly augmented by physical issues, but, while wildly unlikely to ever again repeat his 2009, he remains a better-than-average, quite useful part of the pen. Affeldt has the pleasant distinction of being almost equally effective against RHB and LHB.

Joe Martinez: he has yet to look good at the major-league level, but there were excellent reasons in later 2009, and so far this season a .333 BABIP hasn't helped him. He is likely not a real 5th starter, but should be a good long-innings pen man.

Guillermo Mota: he has a striking--nearly amazing--career BABIP of only .272, and that's over a long career (over 3,000 batters faced). He's never Hall of Fame, and occasionally gives up XBH, but he has decent walks and strikeouts rates (career K/W over 2.4) and a career OBP yielded under .300 (.291). In short, he is an unspectacular but notably better than average reliever. At his age, he is not a long-term asset, but he takes pressure off any need to rush a replacement.

Chris Ray: as he is still nominally in recovery from Tommy John surgery, we need to be carful evaluating him--his post-op 2009 is meaningless, and we need to essentially clear the slate. So far in 2010, his results are good, but there are flags up: a K/W barely over 1, and a TB/H ratio somewhat above league norms. But his pre-op history is that of a good pitcher, so one supposes that "guarded optimism" is the order of the day.

Sergio Romo: an excellent pitcher whose remarkable slider will, every once in a while, hang, leading to slightly more homers than normally expected. All in all, though, an obvious setup man with a very possible closer's role in his future.

Dan Runzler: His meteoric 2009 was an act anyone would find hard to follow, including he himself. But after an adjustment period earlier in the year, he looks on track for being a solid later-inning guy. Regrettably, his platoon splits are rather sharp, so he is probably limited in use against RHB.

Brian Wilson: he can be heart-attack-inducing, and his overall numbers, while good, do not leap off the page and grab one by the throat. He seems to eventually get the job done, but it may be worth recalling that he blew 6 saves in 2008 and 7 in 2009, and has a career saves/opportunities rate of about 86%, pretty good but not superlative.  But there seems no need to be looking for a replacement yet.

As many writers have pointed out, saves and "closers" are somewhat artificial creations; the average pitcher throws 70% scoreless innings, and in save opportunities there is often a 2- or even 3-run lead, so that a perfectly scoreless inning is not needed for the save. One doesn't have too be so very good to get a high saves percentage if used in save situations. That doesn't mean that high-percentage closers are not pretty good pitchers, only that save percentages don't well measure much about quality.

The rest:

Denny Bautista: an open gas can.

Santiago Castilla: also do not smoke in his vicinity.

Brandon Medders: a somewhat but not exceptionally better than average long-innings guy whose day is now past for the Giants in that they seem to have better and younger men who can fill the role.

Todd Wellemeyer: probably nice to children, dogs, and little old ladies, and as a pitcher worth what that sort of behavior is worth.

Waldis Joaquin: I know little save that he is not ready for prime time. Maybe he's in line for Mota's spot in 2011; maybe not.

In sum: this team has enough solid talent in both pitching and offense to be a serious contender, in 2010 and beyond, but only if--and I mean only if--the management at both the field level and in the front office recognizes who's valuable and who isn't and uses the men accordingly. (I will spare you all yet another repetition of my suggested 10-man position-player rotation, but as Casey said, "You could look it up.") So far this year, on offense alone the Giants have given from one-quarter to one-third of their plate appearances to men who should never have gotten any. That's like playing 75 games, 50 games with your good major-league team and 25 with a mediocre triple-A team--how much do you expect to score?

This FanPost is reader-generated, and it does not necessarily reflect the views of McCovey Chronicles. If the author uses filler to achieve the minimum word requirement, a moderator may edit the FanPost for his or her own amusement.

Comment 173 comments  |  12 recs  | 

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I really enjoyed reading this. Thanks for posting!

Waiting for Giants and Niners to contend once more.

by dcp on Jul 7, 2010 4:32 PM PDT reply actions  

Thank you for putting so much thought into this

Obviously any links in the above post are probably NSFW
The baseball gods do not always punish the wicked but they will not just allow people to spit in their faces -- Joe Posnanski
I wish I would stop cheating. fuck. this is jctgamer's fault -- jponry

by jctGamer on Jul 7, 2010 4:51 PM PDT reply actions  

I agree with Renteria for this year

I disagree with picking up his option. If you decline the option, nobody will offer him 8M. The $$ / production can be better served somewere else and sign somebody like Adam Kennedy to play short.

I, too, believe in Andres Torres.

Obviously any links in the above post are probably NSFW
The baseball gods do not always punish the wicked but they will not just allow people to spit in their faces -- Joe Posnanski
I wish I would stop cheating. fuck. this is jctgamer's fault -- jponry

by jctGamer on Jul 7, 2010 4:58 PM PDT up reply actions  

Or . . .

. . . as is fairly common, they can decline the option then re-sign him for less (assuming it’s so that no one else would then be in competition—which I really, really doubt).

Professional baseball analyst since 1980.

by owlcroft on Jul 7, 2010 5:17 PM PDT up reply actions  

He’s 35 this year, his defense is declining, and he hasn’t been good offensively at all for a while. Who do you think is going to pay a few million to this guy?

Goodbye, Steven Johnson, we hardly knew ye. Seriously, that was short.

by quincy0191 on Jul 10, 2010 11:50 AM PDT up reply actions  

That depends . . .

. . . on exactly what “a few” really means. Teams with notable weakness at the position but otherwise feeling themselves contenders might well take a shot at him for a year or two. Moreover, the statement about his offense, as is so common hereabouts, ignores the fact that his prior two years are essentially bad data in that he was injured, significantly as affects performance. Whatever small slump he may be in at the moment (no worse than those of several other local darlings), his performance this year at the plate has been satisfactory and more than satisfactory. He is not the answer to a maiden’s prayer, but as the old saying goes you could travel farther and fair worse.

Professional baseball analyst since 1980.

by owlcroft on Jul 10, 2010 2:50 PM PDT up reply actions  

I think he'll get about 2 Mill this offseason

If for no other reason than the lack of talent at SS on the FA marker

Proud father of Mike Krukow (who is more than 3 times my age)
Grab Some Pine, Meat
Still cheering for Kevin Frandsen
John Bowker: One of the 3 best OF's on the Giants roster

by Gobroks on Jul 11, 2010 7:05 PM PDT up reply actions  

I haven’t read the whole thing yet, but I’m 100% sure that Posey’s low walk rate is due to fact that pitchers do not yet realize that they shouldn’t just grove one to him in a hitter’s count.

Mark DeRosa just got the damn surgery.

by oldjacket on Jul 7, 2010 7:30 PM PDT reply actions  

It's there but short:
Assuming that Bumgarner is now solidly welded into the rotation, it looks awfully strong. So far, Lincecum’s numbers are down a bit from projections (and, we hope, just in a flukey manner), but Cain’s are up by a little more, and that about evens out; JSanchez is, unsurprisingly, far ahead of projections, but we all hope that that is sustainable owing to his having turned the proverbial corner in his career.

I didn’t think much more wanted saying.

And thank you (and dcp and jctGamer).

Professional baseball analyst since 1980.

by owlcroft on Jul 7, 2010 9:54 PM PDT up reply actions  

Zeet

I was kind of up for an updated take on Zito’s year. He’s definitely cooled off, but it’s not clear what the rest of the year holds.

"That sort of thing only happens to white people."
- Kirby Puckett joking about the fairy-tale nature of his friend, Cal Ripken Jr., homering in his final All-Star Game

by achiappanza on Jul 9, 2010 12:41 AM PDT up reply actions  

He looks like the same pitcher as ever to me. His velocity is worse than ever and his control is still meh, but he’s getting a lot of out-of-zone swings and a lot of weak contact this year. That probably won’t last forever. I still have him penciled in for 190 innings and a 4.75 ERA.

by Evan on Jul 9, 2010 7:35 AM PDT up reply actions  

Travis Ishikawa: not a major-league corner bat. As to the value of a weak-bat/good-glove 1B, ask Skip James.

…um, something about the Washington DC hospital center?

"he walked 18; new league record! Struck out 18, another new league record! He also hit the sportswriter, the PA announcer, the bull mascot twice..."

by i did my job on Jul 7, 2010 8:24 PM PDT reply actions  

yeah, I missed that one. Probably not this Skip James?

Mark DeRosa just got the damn surgery.

by oldjacket on Jul 7, 2010 8:36 PM PDT up reply actions  

This one:

http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/j/jamessk01.shtml

It’s hard to remember now that he was being touted at the time as the clear successor to Willie Mac.

Professional baseball analyst since 1980.

by owlcroft on Jul 7, 2010 9:58 PM PDT up reply actions  

You’re talking about Rich Murray, right?

"Row(and) will come out of this. You stay with your guys and he is one of our guys." - Bruce Bochy 05-31-10

"...and with Titanic's transverse bulkheads and watertight doors, it renders this vessel practically unsinkable." - "Shipbuilder" magazine, 1912

by Lyle on Jul 8, 2010 8:09 AM PDT up reply actions  

I'm not sure . . .

. . . that he even had an outstanding glove.

Professional baseball analyst since 1980.

by owlcroft on Jul 8, 2010 12:11 PM PDT up reply actions  

Well, of course I was being facetious. It’s just that when Willie McCovey retired, he supposedly did so because he was convinced the Giants had finally found his replacement at 1B in the erstwhile younger Murray brother.

I believe future historians will conclude that this is where the term “epic fail” was first coined.

"Row(and) will come out of this. You stay with your guys and he is one of our guys." - Bruce Bochy 05-31-10

"...and with Titanic's transverse bulkheads and watertight doors, it renders this vessel practically unsinkable." - "Shipbuilder" magazine, 1912

by Lyle on Jul 9, 2010 6:56 PM PDT up reply actions  

Giants always get the wrong brother.

Remember when they traded for Hector Cruz? Jose was the good Cruz, but we ended up with Heity. Then there’s the wrong Molina we got. Either of the others would have been preferable. I think the reason the Gs played all three Alou brothers was to be sure, for once, that they had the best brother.

by mrs. owlcroft on Jul 10, 2010 12:42 AM PDT up reply actions  

A pleasure to correspond with the lady of the house. Yes indeed, the Giants front office seems to be blinded by last names. Sometimes it works (Barry Bonds) and sometimes it doesn’t (Bobby Bonds, Jr., Hector Cruz, etc., etc.).

Tell Eric I enjoy his posts.

"Row(and) will come out of this. You stay with your guys and he is one of our guys." - Bruce Bochy 05-31-10

"...and with Titanic's transverse bulkheads and watertight doors, it renders this vessel practically unsinkable." - "Shipbuilder" magazine, 1912

by Lyle on Jul 10, 2010 8:00 AM PDT up reply actions  

/ cringe!

I rember Eddie’s little brother as Zork with out the speed. of Coarse memories are “funny” things. In this case mean kind of “funny”

Threat level that the 2010 Pads finish with more wins than the 2010 Giants is currently at: 61%

Spoiler: Grumpy older Giants fan is Grumpy.

by daveinexile on Jul 8, 2010 4:56 PM PDT up reply actions  

I agree with about 90% of the post but a few slight disagreements.

I think Ishikawa showed in the minors that he has power, and that if he played regularly he could put up
20-25 homers in a season, and be a non-switch hitting JT Snow, and possibly a JT Snow plus. I know
Snow had a high walk rate, but he also had a high called third strike rate. Rowand is not a bad fielder,
despite his lack of having any clue at the plate. His career shows that he is exceptionally streaky. Torres
has simply been better and more consistent, while being a superior fielder. Aaron Rowand simply has no
clue of the strike zone. While Uribe is walking more than before I think he is getting less pitches to hit, and
even though he is quite capable of working the count to 3-2 he consistently swings at ball 4 in that situation.
With Pablo I totally agree with everything you said. I note he is not as balanced at the plate and not as frequently getting his weight, or momentum behind his swings. He is too frequently off balance this year. He started off the season ok, and the approach of taking more bad pitches and looking for a good pitch to hit, was a better approach. I think fooling around with his vision has been problematic, but his balance in the batters box is even more of a problem. I keep waiting for him to have a streak of multiple hit games. Posey looks solid at the plate he has a good approach, and he will walk more if they stop throwing the ball over the plate, whereas with Rowand he will not walk more no matter where they throw the ball. The west division teams know that and so when he does get a hot streak it is often out of the division when teams throw him more pitches over the plate.

by bradleybear on Jul 7, 2010 9:32 PM PDT reply actions  

I think Rowand knows the strike zone

Pablo doesn’t know the strike zone. Rowand just can’t recognize sliders. If you throw Rowand fast balls he won’t go fishing and he will hurt you. Rowand needs to have somebody throw him sliders by the hour in batting practice, until he can figure it out, get glasses, whatever it takes.

I like my beer cold ... my TV loud ... and my romosexuals flaming.--Homer Simpson

by nogooddeed on Jul 8, 2010 9:14 AM PDT up reply actions  

I agree with about 90% of your 10% (so to speak)

I think Ishikawa showed in the minors that he has power, and that if he played regularly he could put up 20-25 homers in a season, and be a non-switch hitting JT Snow, and possibly a JT Snow plus. You say that like it was a good thing. J. T. was a very nice fellow and immensely popular, but no glove, especially at 1B, makes up for his kind of bat.

Rowand is not a bad fielder, despite his lack of having any clue at the plate. Maybe once upon a time: I didn’t watch him much in Philly, and don’t much trust most fielding stats. But at this point, he is probably best described as “average at best”, and not a few outside observers class his glove much lower now than even that.

While Uribe is walking more than before I think he is getting less pitches to hit, and even though he is quite capable of working the count to 3-2 he consistently swings at ball 4 in that situation. He has swung in some high-leverage counts where he should very obviously have taken, but his actual walks rate is up astonishingly. It looks like, with a second handful of BamBam’s fairy dust sprinkled, he might walk even more than what he’s doing now, despite his natural urges (and a manager who never heard the phrase “take sign”).

Posey looks solid at the plate he has a good approach, and he will walk more if they stop throwing the ball over the plate . . . I agree that that could well happen, and hope it does.

Professional baseball analyst since 1980.

by owlcroft on Jul 7, 2010 10:06 PM PDT reply actions  

To be honest, I’m pretty sure that Uribe’s high walk rate is a complete fluke. Yes, we can talk about BamBam magic and whatnot, but he hasn’t really been that patient.

Are you familiar with Fangraphs’ plate discipline section? It’s really helpful for things like this. Uribe isn’t really being patient. His O-swing rate is 41st highest out of 172 qualifying players – in other words, a bit over 75% of qualifying players are more more likely to take a ball than he is. The two players ahead of him are Aaron Hill and Michael Young, and the two right behind him are Adam Lind and Hunter Pence – all of these players have a career BB% between 6.7% and 7%.

It’s still a clear improvement from last year, when he would have ranked 19th out of 154 qualifying players if he had qualified (so 88% of qualifying players were more likely to take a ball than he was), so maybe BamBam should still get some credit, but he is still a long ways from even having league average plate discipline, let alone good one. I’d expect that walk rate to start dropping any time now.

I was promised lasagna.

by Cookyman on Jul 8, 2010 5:35 AM PDT up reply actions  

Interesting--let's look:

Month        PA  BB  BB%
April/March  73   7  9.6%
May         107  10  9.3%
June        112  10  8.9%
July         18   2 11.1%

So as a rate, there is some falloff, but if we take his season average of 9.3%, apply it to the monthly PA numbers, and round off to the nearest whole number, we get exactly those actual walks totals—which is another way of saying his rate has been very consistent.

No, he doesn’t have a high walks rate, but it is above the current league average of around 8.8%. Whether the spell will fade remains to be seen, but it hasn’t so far.

Professional baseball analyst since 1980.

by owlcroft on Jul 8, 2010 12:23 PM PDT up reply actions  

Have you studied the question of how “sticky” an improved walk rate is? One would logically expect it to be a permanent change, since it’s largely a mental adjustment, but secretly I fear that many players with such walk spikes quickly revert to business as usual.

by Evan on Jul 8, 2010 2:16 PM PDT up reply actions  

Here’s an old (but still good) article on it.

To make a long read short: Players as a whole retain 51.7% of a season-long spike (or sharp decline) in walk rate, but only 21.9% of a spike/sharp decline in hit rate. That’s season long, Uribe, Huff, etc. are still well below that sample.

I’ll keep looking to see if I can find this correlated with player age, I suspect that older players who spike are less likely to retain their performance than younger players who spike.

VAE PVTO DEVS FIO

by Bhaakon on Jul 8, 2010 5:16 PM PDT up reply actions  

Correction

The numbers I gave are only for increases.

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by Bhaakon on Jul 8, 2010 5:35 PM PDT up reply actions  

Granted, but . . .

. . . there are several significant caveats there.

One of those is that “on the whole”, because I would imagine that most such spikes are particular to the player, whereas here we are seeing them, in varying degree, largely across the team, which suggests a single co-ordinating cause, which it seems reasonable to ascribe to their new batting coach. In that case, with the same coach in place for the next year or few years, and an environment of teammates who are also seeing the light, one must at least suspect that the “stickiness” will be nontrivially higher than average.

Another is that even only half of a relatively big improvement is still not something to snoot.

Professional baseball analyst since 1980.

by owlcroft on Jul 8, 2010 6:40 PM PDT up reply actions  

which it seems reasonable to ascribe to their new batting coach.

Why?

VAE PVTO DEVS FIO

by Bhaakon on Jul 8, 2010 7:33 PM PDT up reply actions  

There’s some good circumstantial evidence pointing in that direction: Meulens was repeatedly cited as having helped Bowker last year by teaching him plate discipline, and the Giants’ increase in patience this year is an impressively teamwide phenomenon. It’s probably more accurate to call it a new organizational emphasis, as spearheaded by the new batting coach.

by Evan on Jul 8, 2010 8:00 PM PDT up reply actions  

As Henry Thoreau once remarked . . .

. . . ""Some circumstantial evidence is very strong, as when you find a trout in the milk."

(Said at a time when there were rumors that milk companies were watering their milk.)

Professional baseball analyst since 1980.

by owlcroft on Jul 9, 2010 12:01 AM PDT up reply actions  

I know his walk rate is fine, but it doesn’t mean he’s been patient. And impatient players shouldn’t be expected to draw walks, unless they have fantastic power, which he doesn’t.

I was promised lasagna.

by Cookyman on Jul 8, 2010 2:28 PM PDT up reply actions  

Sorry . . .

. . . not following you there. He draws walks but he shouldn’t expect to draw walks? I’m apparently not reading that right.

Professional baseball analyst since 1980.

by owlcroft on Jul 8, 2010 6:42 PM PDT up reply actions  

He’s trying to argue that swing rates are a better representation of true talent, which would suggest that Uribe hasn’t changed his approach at all and the walks are a statistical aberration. I don’t know of any studies to back that conclusion up (or refute it, for that matter). You can look at the numbers here.

What may lend some credence to Cookyman’s theory is that the largest change in Uribe’s percentages is a decline in the percentage of strikes seen (from 48.4% to 44.6%) while his swing rates have remained within 1.5% of his 2010 totals. Interestingly the league as a whole is throwing fewer strikes (47.1%) than it has at any point in in the nine years the data is available (it was 49.3% in 2009, the first time it dipped below 50%), so this might be part of a league-wide phenomenon.

VAE PVTO DEVS FIO

by Bhaakon on Jul 9, 2010 1:59 AM PDT up reply actions  

Come one. He doesn’t “draw walks”. He has drawn walks, over 300 PA’s. Before that, he hadn’t drawn walks in 4,000 PA’s.

He’s not taking many balls. More than before, yes, but he’s still significantly more likely to swing at a ball than the league average hitter. That, by definition, makes him an impatient player. Do you agree that he’s an impatient player? Do you agree that impatient players shouldn’t be expected to draw many walks?

And really, the “he’s doing it now, why shouldn’t he be expected to keep it up” argument is pretty bizarre coming from someone like you. Do you expect Buster Posey to continue hitting .336? Do you expect Casilla to keep anything near a 2.16 ERA? Surely I don’t have to explain that just because someone has gotten certain results over a relatively short period of time, it doesn’t necessarily mean that he’s likely to get the same results in the future (including the near future).

I was promised lasagna.

by Cookyman on Jul 9, 2010 6:48 AM PDT up reply actions  

There are differences.

Some qualities are “stickier” than others. I wouldn’t expect Posey to hit .336 long term, nor Casilla to be anything but an open gas can. But the spurts they are experiencing are readily attributable to things not fully under their control—even Casilla’s pitches, whose target destination is essentially a crap shoot with which he’s been lucky lately. Taking 4 balls in a plate appearance is rather less a matter of luck than balls falling in or mostly uncontrolled pitches hitting the zone. It’s not a matter of doing something and having its consequences happen to be favorable: it’s a matter of not doing something one is tempted to do.

One can show data till the cows come home indicating that Uribe is less “patient” than average; but the hard, cold, irrefutable fact that remains when the wind stops blowing is that he has walked more frequently than the average NL batter for his PAs.

No one, least of all I, can guarantee that his improved walks rate will be “sticky”. But when we consider that it is only one facet of a team-wide increase in patience—in many cases, well over career norms—then we may be inclined to think that this is not a chance occurrence but the definite result of a definite cause, which implies that so long as the cause remains, the effect may well remain.

Professional baseball analyst since 1980.

by owlcroft on Jul 9, 2010 3:34 PM PDT up reply actions  

One can show data till the cows come home indicating that Uribe is less "patient" than average; but the hard, cold, irrefutable fact that remains when the wind stops blowing is that he has walked more frequently than the average NL batter for his PAs.

I really don’t know what to do with this. I can use the exact same argument to argue that Justin Morneau is the greatest hitter of his generation. And really, considering that this entire Fanpost is about comparing actually performance to expected performance, I find it really odd coming from you.

I was promised lasagna.

by Cookyman on Jul 9, 2010 3:47 PM PDT up reply actions  

As Count Basie famously said, one more once:

There are two distinct issues here that are getting conflated. The first is an argument that I’m still not sure I comprehend, about how Uribe can’t be walking much because he’s “impatient”. But the facts of record are that, so far in 2010, he has walked more than the average NLer. His “impatience”, however measured, is simply irrelevant to that fact.

The second issue is whether Uribe’s unquestionably big jump in walks rate is sustainable. Here, there are two tines on the fork: one, as someone kindly looked up and noted, notable increases in walks rates are, on average, over 50% “sticky”; second, there is reason to believe that Uribe’s case is not representative of “on average” because it is part of a team-wide phenomenon, something that argues a definite and common cause, which most would suspect is the new philosophies of Hensley Meulens taking effect, which would imply that—at least as long as Meulens remains—the increases are likely to be nontrivially more “sticky” than is the case ’on average". (Indeed, given long enough exposure to Meulens, all these pleasant jumps in walks might stay with the players in question.)

Professional baseball analyst since 1980.

by owlcroft on Jul 9, 2010 4:16 PM PDT up reply actions  

There are two distinct issues here that are getting conflated. The first is an argument that I’m still not sure I comprehend, about how Uribe can’t be walking much because he’s "impatient".

You know, I don’t know why you do this. Evan has pointed this out a few times before. Once in a while your comments show such obtuseness that it’s clear you’re just intentionally playing dumb, which maybe would work if most of your comments weren’t as intelligent as they are. What’s the point of this?

No, my point was not that Uribe hasn’t walked this year. I don’t think anyone here buys that this is what you understood from my – and Bhaakon’s – posts. Because you’re not an idiot, and I’m not an idiot, and I would think that we both know this. I’m not even going to explain again what my point was, because it’s been made so clear, that clearly it wouldn’t make a difference. After all, “one cannot use reason to get a man out of a position if he did not use reason to get into it”, as one of the smarter posters here likes to say. Let me know when he’s back.

I was promised lasagna.

by Cookyman on Jul 9, 2010 5:58 PM PDT up reply actions  

Well,

I still really and truly do not understand what this was supposed to mean:

I know his walk rate is fine, but it doesn’t mean he’s been patient. And impatient players shouldn’t be expected to draw walks, unless they have fantastic power, which he doesn’t.
We all accept, because it is a fact, that Uribe—along with quite a few other Giants—has a walks rate this season that well exceeds career norms. The rest puzzles me. It suggests that Uribe is drawing walks by some sort of mysterious, random, act-of-God process, rather than by some sort of augmented actual ability.

“He doesn’t have fantastic power”: true—his career PF is 1.68, which is pretty good (and, more or less literally, wonderful for a middle infielder), but not quite “fantastic”. But the logical proposition connecting those disparate facts eludes me.

When a player is walking at a rate much above his career norm, and indeed above league average, how is he not showing increased “patience”, however one defines that? How exactly do we tease “patience” out of walks rate? Is there anyone who would agree with this statement: “Walks have little or nothing to do with patience at the plate”? Do you?

Professional baseball analyst since 1980.

by owlcroft on Jul 9, 2010 10:56 PM PDT up reply actions  

When a player is walking at a rate much above his career norm, and indeed above league average, how is he not showing increased "patience", however one defines that?

Are you serious? You can’t seen any difference between being patient and drawing walks? The two are completely interchangeable in your mind?

That would explain your refusal to understand a very simple claim, but it’s just weird. Which would you consider a more patient AB – taking 4 borderline pitches, getting to a 3-1 count, and then swinging at a meatball and ending the AB (either with a hit or an out), or getting 6 straight balls way out of the strikezone, and swinging at two of them?

It’s the second PA that would end with a walk, but any reasonable baseball fan would be able to tell you that the first hitter showed better patience.

In a small sample size, a bad process can lead to a good result, and a good process can lead to a bad result. In terms of what has already happened, the process makes little difference. But when predicting what’s likely to happen in the future, it’s extremely important. Uribe had a change in results. He did not have a change in process. He hasn’t taken more walks this year because he’s been better at laying off bad pitches, but rather because he’s gotten an surprisingly high number of bad pitches. That is either a complete fluke (which it can definitely be – Ike Davis has seen fewer strikes than any other batter in the majors except for Sandoval: there is no reason to expect this to last) , or it’s the result of pitchers being afraid of him because of his good 2009 numbers and the hot start that he had this year. Even if it’s the latter I wouldn’t expect it to last, as his AVG and SLG are now back to his career norms, and he shouldn’t be intimidating anyone.

I was promised lasagna.

by Cookyman on Jul 10, 2010 6:16 AM PDT up reply actions  

Some of that would make fair sense . . .

. . . were Uribe’s jump an isolated phenomenon. Consider:

He hasn’t taken more walks this year because he’s been better at laying off bad pitches, but rather because he’s gotten an surprisingly high number of bad pitches.

Are all the Giants’ batters suddenly getting much increased numbers of bad pitches? Yet a great number of them are showing surprisingly high increases in walks rates. Meanwhile, his PF for 2010 is 1.75+ as against a career number of 1.68 (and 1.71 last year), and his current BABIP is 15 points under his career norm.

He is not a monster, but he is a solid and valuable player; moreover, there is nothing in sight to replace him, considering his versatility, unless perhaps it is a resurgent DeRosa next year.

Professional baseball analyst since 1980.

by owlcroft on Jul 10, 2010 3:00 PM PDT up reply actions  

First of all, I’m not against Uribe. He’s pretty good. As I’ve said before, I wouldn’t mind him as our 2011 SS.

Are all the Giants’ batters suddenly getting much increased numbers of bad pitches? Yet a great number of them are showing surprisingly high increases in walks rates

I’m not going to go over every batter, but Torres, for example, really is taking a lot of balls this year. Huff is slightly better than league average, which, with his power, can explain an 11% BB% (but if the power regresses, so will the walks, at least to some extent). I would consider these improvements more “real” than Uribe’s.

I was promised lasagna.

by Cookyman on Jul 10, 2010 4:12 PM PDT up reply actions  

Maybe.

But I suspect that the implied close functional relation between walks and power isn’t all that strong. Many years ago—decades, really—when I was first working my way through Earnshaw Cook’s stuff, the most glaring error I found was his assumption that walks rates correlate with power. Without going into details I could no longer remember anyway, I will just pronounce the magic words (no, not “poof, poof, piffles”) . . . Dave Kingman.

I really don’t think relatively small shifts in one man’s power numbers will materially—or at all, really—affect his walks rate.

How ’real"—that is, “sticky”—any of these many improved walsk rates will turn out to be is still an open question. But my inclination—and certainly my hope—is to believe that so long as BamBam remains around these guys, the numbers will mostly hold up.

Professional baseball analyst since 1980.

by owlcroft on Jul 10, 2010 7:43 PM PDT up reply actions  

Season	Team	O-Swing%   Z-Swing%  Contact%   Zone%
2009	Giants	31.0 %	   75.5 %    77.4 %	48.4 %
2010	Giants	32.5 %	   74.2 %    75.8 %	44.6 %

A little stat chart to support Cookyman’s good theoretical analysis of Uribe’s season. We can see that he is swinging at more pitches out of the zone, fewer pitches in the zone, and contacting fewer pitches, but to his delight, pitchers are throwing fewer pitches into the zone, so though his selectivity has declined, his walk rates have not suffered.

*description of actions is in same order as the unusual acronyms in the chart

Rooting for Jose Casilla to take his K- and GB-inducing skills to the majors and join his brother.

by dregarx on Jul 10, 2010 9:01 AM PDT up reply actions  

It could just be a matter of reputation. Last season, Uribe was coming off several atrocious years at the plate, and he peaked late in the season, making his overall numbers look mediocre even as he was crushing the ball. This year, he’s not surprising anyone, and pitchers are showing him more respect (relative to absolutely none last season).

That doesn’t explain Huff or Torres (who, though good in limited time last season, was still pretty much a nobody entering this year).

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by Bhaakon on Jul 10, 2010 2:37 PM PDT up reply actions  

But he’s hitting .250 now, with a .440 SLG. Pretty much his career numbers. Shouldn’t they start losing respect any time now?

I was promised lasagna.

by Cookyman on Jul 10, 2010 2:49 PM PDT up reply actions  

His career numbers probably aren't representative of his reputation entering 2009.

his career line may be 256/.300/.431, but he hit .239/.289/.391 in the two seasons before joining the Giants. Juan Uribe’s had a very odd career.

VAE PVTO DEVS FIO

by Bhaakon on Jul 10, 2010 3:12 PM PDT up reply actions  

That’s true.

I was promised lasagna.

by Cookyman on Jul 10, 2010 4:13 PM PDT up reply actions  

Just think

We have not one, but TWO World Series champion shortstops.

Aaron King is still my homeboy... iffy mechanics and all

McFAQ for all you newcomers out there.

by baetown415 on Jul 10, 2010 4:51 PM PDT up reply actions  

I just realized why it took so long for Sabean to get rid of Molina.

He needed Burrell to replace Bengie’s world series ring.

VAE PVTO DEVS FIO

by Bhaakon on Jul 10, 2010 5:06 PM PDT up reply actions  

walk totals
So as a rate, there is some falloff, but if we take his season average of 9.3%, apply it to the monthly PA numbers, and round off to the nearest whole number, we get exactly those actual walks totals

Isn’t this a tautology? Average walk rate times actual plate appearances = actual walk count. Doesn’t it have to?

"That sort of thing only happens to white people."
- Kirby Puckett joking about the fairy-tale nature of his friend, Cal Ripken Jr., homering in his final All-Star Game

by achiappanza on Jul 9, 2010 12:54 AM PDT up reply actions  

season walk rate

times monthly PAs will not necessarily equal monthly number of walks

Sharlon Schoop - de favoriete Nederlandse honkbalspeler van McCovey Chronicles.
You always have to be one step ahead of your drunk friends
--Daisy Owl

by Viliphied on Jul 9, 2010 1:22 AM PDT up reply actions  

Oh, I see what you're saying.

“His monthly walk rate varies so little, it’s within rounding distance of consistent.”

"That sort of thing only happens to white people."
- Kirby Puckett joking about the fairy-tale nature of his friend, Cal Ripken Jr., homering in his final All-Star Game

by achiappanza on Jul 9, 2010 7:50 AM PDT up reply actions  

Just so.

The question was whether he was shoiwng a decline (or any notable change) through the season.

Professional baseball analyst since 1980.

by owlcroft on Jul 9, 2010 3:35 PM PDT up reply actions  

Kruk and Kuip

Were subtly making fun of Rowand the other night (at least that’s how I took it). On a fly ball to center field one of the Brewers runners was between first and second and had to run back once Rowand caught the ball. Aaron threw the ball to first as hard as he could and one of the pair said something along the lines of “That’s a throw you really don’t have to worry about finding the cutoff man on.”

by paboperfecto on Jul 8, 2010 8:03 AM PDT up reply actions  

Huh. I interpreted that comment to mean “you just catch the ball and then heave it directly to firstbase.” Which seemed factual, instead of implying anything.

"Row(and) will come out of this. You stay with your guys and he is one of our guys." - Bruce Bochy 05-31-10

"...and with Titanic's transverse bulkheads and watertight doors, it renders this vessel practically unsinkable." - "Shipbuilder" magazine, 1912

by Lyle on Jul 8, 2010 8:12 AM PDT up reply actions  

Does Rowand have a reputation of missing the cut-off man on occassion?

by ErodCal on Jul 8, 2010 8:50 AM PDT up reply actions  

mos' def'

he is perhaps the mostly likely on the team.

I like my beer cold ... my TV loud ... and my romosexuals flaming.--Homer Simpson

by nogooddeed on Jul 8, 2010 9:18 AM PDT up reply actions  

Is the Pope catholic?

Threat level that the 2010 Pads finish with more wins than the 2010 Giants is currently at: 61%

Spoiler: Grumpy older Giants fan is Grumpy.

by daveinexile on Jul 8, 2010 4:59 PM PDT up reply actions  

Does he protect Rapists?

"We didn't win our independence from the British to watch Aaron Rowand hit this bad,"-KNBR caller.

by GovernorStephCurry on Jul 9, 2010 12:35 AM PDT up reply actions  

My lady's mother is a veritable Mrs. Malaprop . . .

. . . who famously (well, famous in certain circles) asked “Is the Pope a bear?” (Mixing two well-known rhetorical questions.)

Professional baseball analyst since 1980.

by owlcroft on Jul 9, 2010 3:37 PM PDT up reply actions  

 . . . flanked by “Is a shit Catholic?”

He is the World's Most Annoying Rooster.

by gallo del cielo on Jul 10, 2010 2:40 PM PDT up reply actions  

I will have to remember the “Is the Pope a bear”. It should to be good for twisting tails in certain corners of the family when needed.

/ tips cap

Threat level that the 2010 Pads finish with more wins than the 2010 Giants is currently at: 61%

Spoiler: Grumpy older Giants fan is Grumpy.

by daveinexile on Jul 12, 2010 12:18 PM PDT up reply actions  

Hence the nickname ‘Errant Throwin’

Utter frustration and futility.
Adopted 'nephew' to the ever avuncular and always awesome Jon Miller

by Johnny Disaster on Jul 9, 2010 8:12 AM PDT up reply actions  

I think it was a comment like that but I have heard them say many times “Rowand throws it in….and misses the cutoff, so and so takes an extra base”. I’m sure they did mean to point out that yes, you just heave it in there but I don’t think they would have phrased it the way they did for anyone else on the team.

by paboperfecto on Jul 8, 2010 12:11 PM PDT up reply actions  

I also like . . .

. . . the way Rowand throws balls in: he looks like a cartoon character, the way he more or less literally heaves himself off his feet.

It reminds me of a Tom Seaver anecdote: asked, in his later career, if he felt he was still throwing as hard as ever, he replied, “Sure I am—but the ball is taking longer to get to the plate.”

Professional baseball analyst since 1980.

by owlcroft on Jul 8, 2010 12:36 PM PDT up reply actions  

Not a Common Play

I think they meant that it’s not a play you see very often, and so not a play that has a designed cutoff.

by GiantFaninDodgerLand on Jul 8, 2010 10:22 AM PDT up reply actions  

Posey

.333/.371/519/.890

Pretty fanfuckingtastic. At any position. Walks are wonderful. Hits are better. Posey doesn’t strike out much and he knows the strike zone as well or better than any hitter on the team.

As for his power – it will improve over time. He’ll get a little stronger and I suspect he will pull more at some point, although I almost hope not.

His oppo power is terrific and he has tremendous balance. Quick bat and doesn’t get fooled all that often.

Franchise bat? Not sure what that mean. I do know that the guy has a chance to be a terrific hitter. Not for a catcher. But period.

by lexluth7 on Jul 9, 2010 10:55 PM PDT up reply actions  

There'a a fellow who knows:

Professional baseball analyst since 1980.

by owlcroft on Jul 9, 2010 11:07 PM PDT up reply actions  

I wish this board's software would stop eating my post text.

There’s a fellow who knows:

He goes by the name “Father Time”, and is known to be a thoroughly reliable source. But I have come to know him well, and must say that he will take a while to deliver his report.

Professional baseball analyst since 1980.

by owlcroft on Jul 9, 2010 11:09 PM PDT up reply actions  

Of course time will tell

I get that. BUT I don’t understand the “good hitter for a catcher” stuff. He has put up excellent numbers everywhere he has played. In addition, he has a tremendous approach at the plate, he has a short quick stroke and he does not appear to have any major holes in his swing. At 23, it is not unreasonable to suggest he will gain strength and hit for more power.

I know you use a lot of projection stuff. But I don’t see how projections from minor league stats mean a whole lot.

Thus, I think you’ve sold him short.

by lexluth7 on Jul 10, 2010 1:11 PM PDT up reply actions  

He’s never really shown tremendous power outside of a four game series against Milwaukee. That’s pretty much all there is to it. Doesn’t mean he won’t develop it, just means that you can’t bank on it.

Mark DeRosa just got the damn surgery.

by oldjacket on Jul 10, 2010 2:54 PM PDT up reply actions  

"I don’t see how projections from minor league stats mean a whole lot."

Bruce! So nice to see you on this board!

In fact, I haven’t personally been doing MLEs for many years now, because I let the software for downloading the necessary data go wildly out of date long years ago and am not in the mood to reconstruct it now just for the fun of it. I am going by remarks made by several apparently knowledgeable people who cite sources that do perform such analyses and conversions, and that seems to be their consensus: very good bat for a catcher, good bat in the abstract, not a monster. I don’t swear by that—like Will Rogers, I only know what I read in the papers—but a few weeks of results, good, bad, or indifferent, ought not to sway anybody either way.

Professional baseball analyst since 1980.

by owlcroft on Jul 10, 2010 3:05 PM PDT up reply actions  

Cute on the Bruce comment

It’s bull. But its cute.

I Agree on the few weeks. But it is more than that. Its watching the approach and the swing. Bowker is a good contrast. He’s had tremendous minor league numbers. But he has obvious holes. He is particularly susceptible to breaking stuff at his back foot. Also, he has some trouble with the fastball above the hands. Admittedly we don’t know what Bowker can do in the ML cause Bochy won’t let him play every day to find out.

Time will tell on Posey’s bat. I’m not thinking Joe Maurer. I am thinking a pretty damn good bat. lets say .310/.360/.470/.830 Maybe 20-25 ish HR’s.
One thing I do feel he will need to do to hit HR’s at home is pull more. I dont’ think any of those off field balls he hit in Mil and Wash go out at PacBell.

So lets just agree he’s the best prospect we’ve had in a while. And let hope time proves that he is a good hitter – period.

by lexluth7 on Jul 14, 2010 2:38 PM PDT up reply actions  

Ah!

But it is more than that. Its watching the approach and the swing.

So it really is you, Bruce!

So lets just agree he’s the best prospect we’ve had in a while. And let hope time proves that he is a good hitter – period.

Yes, there I think we can all concur.

Professional baseball analyst since 1980.

by owlcroft on Jul 14, 2010 7:23 PM PDT up reply actions  

Sure, the team had to weather substandard play at catcher while a much better option plied his trade in Fresno, but for the most part the personnel moves have been designed intelligently.

by biff pocoroba on Jul 8, 2010 9:18 AM PDT reply actions  

nice pic, bad book

this book is full of Creationist nonsense.

I like my beer cold ... my TV loud ... and my romosexuals flaming.--Homer Simpson

by nogooddeed on Jul 8, 2010 9:20 AM PDT up reply actions  

Is it because natural selection can’t explain something as cute as a panda?

I was promised lasagna.

by Cookyman on Jul 8, 2010 9:39 AM PDT up reply actions  

Or because pandas are pretty useless animals and nobody has any idea how they’ve survived this long?

I was promised lasagna.

by Cookyman on Jul 8, 2010 9:39 AM PDT up reply actions  

I think it’s missing fossils and stuff. Like, if you start off with a really amazing panda and that evolves into a really annoying panda that hacks at pitches 3 feet off the plate and makes loads of idiotic baserunning errors, then according to the theory of evolution there should be evidence of a quite amazing panda, then an average one then a slightly annoying one. But it doesn’t; all records seem to imply that the panda evolved straight from amazing to annoying.

Therefore evolution didn’t happen.

by sarf_london_niner on Jul 8, 2010 9:57 AM PDT up reply actions   1 recs

Well . . .

. . . if Bochy isn’t Dr. Frankenstein, at the very least he is Igor, telling Panda to just go ahead and hack, “be yourself”. And who has charge of how Panda attempts to deal with his vision? Is he:

a) wearing no corrective lenses?
b) wearing spectacles?
c) wearing contact lenses?
d) wearing goggles?
e) all of the above, from day to day or even inning to inning?

This organization’s medical capabilities leave one, um, highly dubious.

Professional baseball analyst since 1980.

by owlcroft on Jul 8, 2010 1:10 PM PDT up reply actions  

I remember he was sporting goggles in spring training

But I don’t know what he’s doing now.

Aaron King is still my homeboy... iffy mechanics and all

McFAQ for all you newcomers out there.

by baetown415 on Jul 8, 2010 10:32 PM PDT up reply actions  

I’m sorry, but the post was created fully formed as it is seen in its present condition, and was not adapted from some ancestral post. The words used therein were irreducibly complex and couldn’t have been used in any to support any other sort of idea.

by biff pocoroba on Jul 8, 2010 2:31 PM PDT up reply actions  

I wouldn’t go extending any contracts just yet. Aubrey Huff, for instance, is having a terrific season, but if you project him to return to his career line, then he’s going to be a well-below-average first baseman. So the team needs to keep its options open.

One of the lessons of Huff’s success this year (and Uribe’s, and Burrell’s) is that there are good players out there who have fallen out of favor for one reason or another, and if you choose wisely and get a little lucky, you can get good production for little cost. Re-signing Huff (or any of the others) at this point, on the other hand, would be buying high.

by Evan on Jul 8, 2010 2:09 PM PDT reply actions  

Look into the numbers:

Huff’s increased productivity is mostly owing to his increased walks rate. His projected hits line is:

 H	2B	3B	HR	PF
85 18 1 13 1.69

His actual 2010 hits line is:

 H	2B	3B	HR	PF
82 17 3 15 1.83

So he is actually 3 hits under projection. Mind, his PF is unusually high (though those extra Park-of-Many-Names triples help there); it may be that that will slide back some. But even at his career levels, he is a pretty good hitter—scarcely “well below average” even at 1B—and if we include increased walks he becomes a very good hitter. My sense is that Belt is likely to be the next first baseman, and ready by no later than 2012 if not earlier, so Huff strikes me as a satisfactory and relatively inexpensive (probably) bridge to Belt, and one who would still have reasonable trade value when Belt arrives.

Much the same sorts of things are true of Burrell re Neal, and possibly of FSanchez re Bond (though that is much more an open question).

Professional baseball analyst since 1980.

by owlcroft on Jul 8, 2010 2:30 PM PDT up reply actions  

Well, his career line is clearly subpar for a first baseman, no way around it. And he is currently way above his career line, no way around that either, unless he’s a glove whiz, which he isn’t. See also the query above about walk rates.

More generally, I think the organization would be well advised to forget about Belt when making long-term plans, or Neal, or Crawford, or any sort of prospect other than Posey-level superprospects. The pan-out rate is just too low.

by Evan on Jul 8, 2010 2:42 PM PDT up reply actions  

Let’s try that first paragraph again: Well, his career line is clearly subpar for a first baseman, no way around it, unless he’s a glove whiz, which he isn’t. And he is currently way above his career line, no way around that either. See also the query above about walk rates.

by Evan on Jul 8, 2010 2:45 PM PDT up reply actions  

Think about it:

The less likely it is that the supposed prospects will pan out, the more important it is to keep reasonably well-qualified players around for a while more.

Professional baseball analyst since 1980.

by owlcroft on Jul 8, 2010 6:33 PM PDT up reply actions  

Well, sure. But I think Evan’s line of thinking here is that there’s no reason to extend Huff for a little while in lieu of securing a long-term solution at first base – if one presents itself.

by Dan from NM on Jul 8, 2010 7:50 PM PDT up reply actions  

Oh, of course.

Knock, knock.

“Who’s there?”

" A really great-hitting first baseman that no one else knows about who will sign really cheap and also has decent defense."

“Right, I’ve been expecting you.”

Professional baseball analyst since 1980.

by owlcroft on Jul 9, 2010 12:03 AM PDT up reply actions  

/ cue picture of the Last knight from Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade.

Threat level that the 2010 Pads finish with more wins than the 2010 Giants is currently at: 61%

Spoiler: Grumpy older Giants fan is Grumpy.

by daveinexile on Jul 9, 2010 12:37 PM PDT up reply actions  

I wouldn't say there's no reason, but there are potential reasons not to.

For instance, I wouldn’t pay him for his 2010 season (so far) when I hardly expect him to repeat it in over the life of his hypothetical extension

VAE PVTO DEVS FIO

by Bhaakon on Jul 9, 2010 1:16 AM PDT up reply actions  

But even at his career levels, he is a pretty good hitter—scarcely "well below average" even at 1B

Aubry Huff’s career line is .283/.343/.476. In 2009 the average 1B hit .277/.363/.483.

He has a career 114 OPS+. In the past 3 years, 1B posted an OPS+ of 125, 118, and 123. Over his career, he’s been below average for a 1B, and significantly below average for a starting 1B.

I was promised lasagna.

by Cookyman on Jul 8, 2010 2:44 PM PDT up reply actions  

The point is not whether he was below average . . .

. . . at a position where “average” is typically immense; it was the characterization of by how much. I disagree with the characterization “significantly” in the sense “substantially”, but there are no set criteria for such terms. Steve Garvey, in his day, was sub-par with the bat for a first baseman, but he managed steady employment with few complaints. James Loney, whose team has managed to seem competitive, has lower career numbers than Huff. Not a few others are better by only relatively small margins. No, Huff never was Albert Pujols or Ryan Howard or Joey Votto, and no one claims he was; but neither is he Jorge Cantu or Travis Ishikawa.

And if the improvement in his walks rates is at least somewhat “sticky”, he could be better yet. Coming into today (Thursday), he was the #7 most productive bat in the NL (behind only Votto, Pujols, Willingham, Adrian Gonzalez, Wright, and Ethier), and—as noted elsethread—not in any obviously unsustainable way. I don’t expect he will end up in the top 10 for 2010, or 2011, but he is not merely a spare part.

Professional baseball analyst since 1980.

by owlcroft on Jul 8, 2010 7:33 PM PDT up reply actions   1 recs

Just for the record

Steve Garvey is, hands down, the most overrated player in the history of this sport. No one even comes close.

Anyway, no, he’s not necessarily a “spare part”, but his career line is clearly below average. It’s not just that he’s not Pujols, Howard, or Votto. He’s also not Youkilis, or Cabrera, or Morneau, or Fielder, or Gonzalez, or Teixeira, or Dunn, or Berkman, or Pena, or Helton, or probably a some others that I’m forgetting. Over his career, he’s been useful, but not someone you’d spend significant money on.

Different question, though: why would he sign a one year contract? I would think that, coming off the best year of his career, he’d be trying to cash in and at least get a 2-3 year contract.

I was promised lasagna.

by Cookyman on Jul 9, 2010 7:42 AM PDT up reply actions  

If you can get him to sign a one-year deal for $6 or $8 million, great. But yeah, he’s surely hoping to get one more big contract.

Looking forward to the off-season, Pena is an intriguing name. He’s having a disaster year, so he may be affordable, but he’s very likely a better hitter than Huff.

by Evan on Jul 9, 2010 7:58 AM PDT up reply actions  

I mean, from his point of view, last year he had a disastrous year, and got 1 year, $3M. This year he’s having a fantastic year, and he’s gonna take 1 year, $6M? It really doesn’t make sense for him.

I was promised lasagna.

by Cookyman on Jul 9, 2010 12:50 PM PDT up reply actions  

And your point is?

Give him 2 or even 3 years. In a year or so, when the other side of the prospect bridge is reached, he will very likely have enough tradeability to make deals less than problematic; indeed, having him locked up for a year or two at trade time would likely be a plus thing.

Professional baseball analyst since 1980.

by owlcroft on Jul 9, 2010 3:41 PM PDT up reply actions  

Unless he goes back to his career norms, which means that he’ll be an overpaid old player signed to a long deal. Not exactly a hot commodity.

I was promised lasagna.

by Cookyman on Jul 9, 2010 3:50 PM PDT up reply actions  

Consider:

The chiefest change is in his walks rate, and the stickiness of such improvements is discussed at great length upthread in relation to Uribe. Even at his career norms, he is not a bad player, and if some or most of that walking sticks, he will be a pretty good one. Of course “overpaid” depends on what he’s offered, but with him, and Burrell, my feeling is that a fair but not exorbitant deal would work, because they have both some gratitude and a liking for this team (and, one supposes, this region).

Professional baseball analyst since 1980.

by owlcroft on Jul 9, 2010 4:19 PM PDT up reply actions  

Right

Yeah, I’m having a hard time seeing how Aubrey Huff should NOT be signed next year, at whatever the going rate is, for 2-3 years. Because, you know, we have all these minor league hitters who will be blowing the doors down in the next 2-3 years.

"Row(and) will come out of this. You stay with your guys and he is one of our guys." - Bruce Bochy 05-31-10

"...and with Titanic's transverse bulkheads and watertight doors, it renders this vessel practically unsinkable." - "Shipbuilder" magazine, 1912

by Lyle on Jul 9, 2010 6:53 PM PDT up reply actions  

They should probably sign someone, whether it’s Huff or not will depend on his contract demands.

VAE PVTO DEVS FIO

by Bhaakon on Jul 9, 2010 7:12 PM PDT up reply actions  

My argument is simply this: Aubrey Huff is very likely to be a below-average first baseman, and making extended commitments to below-average players (especially at free-agent prices) is the hallmark of a losing franchise.

If we can get him cheap, great. If not, we should either find someone who does come cheap—someone like Huff circa 2009!—or find a long-term solution.

by Evan on Jul 9, 2010 8:43 PM PDT up reply actions  

Huff

he’s carried the team offensively for a good portion of the year. He’s played three positions and has been solid at all three. He’s the teams MVP to this point – no question. I don’t want to think where they’d be without him.

Yet he’s “significantly below average.” Well, give me eight more equally below average guys and I’ll do quite well thank you.

by lexluth7 on Jul 9, 2010 11:02 PM PDT up reply actions   1 recs

He’s talking about the future.

Not a snippet of the past that encompasses fewer than 350 plate appearances.

Rooting for Jose Casilla to take his K- and GB-inducing skills to the majors and join his brother.

The Kids: Lewis, Posey, Sandoval, Bowker, Schierholtz, Frandsen, Ishikawa, Amezaga... CHONE WAR projection= 12.7

Current Team: Rowand, Sanchez, DeRosa, Sandoval, Huff, Molina, Renteria, Schierholtz... CHONE WAR projection= 12.6

by dregarx on Jul 9, 2010 11:15 PM PDT up reply actions  

Huff has had solid career numbers

And some big years. He stunk last year. Well he’s rebounded. If they can get him for 2 years, they should jump on it. I think 3 is problematic. Perhaps 2 with a club option.

by lexluth7 on Jul 10, 2010 1:13 PM PDT up reply actions  

I’d trade him now while his value’s high.

Rooting for Jose Casilla to take his K- and GB-inducing skills to the majors and join his brother.

by dregarx on Jul 10, 2010 1:19 PM PDT up reply actions  

I think I would too

He won’t get a draft pick back in compensation and given the depth of the 1B FA class, he should be fairly easily re-signed-or we can get someone comparable

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Grab Some Pine, Meat
Still cheering for Kevin Frandsen
John Bowker: One of the 3 best OF's on the Giants roster

by Gobroks on Jul 11, 2010 7:08 PM PDT up reply actions  

As others have noted, those “solid” career numbers are solidly below average for a first baseman and I’d be a lot happier with Berkman, Lee, or Pena bridging the gap to Belt/Villalona/Joseph than Huff.

Huff’s going to decline for the rest of the year.

Rooting for Jose Casilla to take his K- and GB-inducing skills to the majors and join his brother.

by dregarx on Jul 10, 2010 1:22 PM PDT up reply actions  

Minor league hitters are not the only options.

Fellows named Pena, Lee, and Berkman are too.

Rooting for Jose Casilla to take his K- and GB-inducing skills to the majors and join his brother.

The Kids: Lewis, Posey, Sandoval, Bowker, Schierholtz, Frandsen, Ishikawa, Amezaga... CHONE WAR projection= 12.7

Current Team: Rowand, Sanchez, DeRosa, Sandoval, Huff, Molina, Renteria, Schierholtz... CHONE WAR projection= 12.6

by dregarx on Jul 9, 2010 9:05 PM PDT up reply actions  

And Glaus, if we’re looking for cheap stopgaps.

I was promised lasagna.

by Cookyman on Jul 9, 2010 9:28 PM PDT up reply actions  

Also Adam Dunn, FWIW.

And Lyle Overbay, who’s actually looking very similar to what Huff looked like when we signed him. Entered the year with a .279/.363/.449 career line, and was better than that last year, but is having a poor year. And he gets a boost for having to face great pitching staffs in the AL East.

Cheap, decent 1B aren’t particularly hard to find.

I was promised lasagna.

by Cookyman on Jul 9, 2010 9:36 PM PDT up reply actions  

Hey would you be on board with trading Huff now while he’s at a peak in value?

Rooting for Jose Casilla to take his K- and GB-inducing skills to the majors and join his brother.

The Kids: Lewis, Posey, Sandoval, Bowker, Schierholtz, Frandsen, Ishikawa, Amezaga... CHONE WAR projection= 12.7

Current Team: Rowand, Sanchez, DeRosa, Sandoval, Huff, Molina, Renteria, Schierholtz... CHONE WAR projection= 12.6

by dregarx on Jul 9, 2010 9:40 PM PDT up reply actions  

Given up on the playoffs already?

I was promised lasagna.

by Cookyman on Jul 9, 2010 9:45 PM PDT up reply actions  

I’ve just found out that he has no chance of being a type A, so I’m off the “offer him arbitration” bandwagon, but he’s still our best 1B by far, and we’re only 6 games out.

I was promised lasagna.

by Cookyman on Jul 9, 2010 9:48 PM PDT up reply actions  

My preferred course would be to deal him for prospects and try to flip lesser prospects to Chicago for Derrek Lee, who will have less trade value due to a much larger per-year contract.

Not only is Lee projected to hit better than Huff for the rest of the year (see: Lee’s BABIP), the boost to the farm would be desirable and the trade could perhaps help sign Lee this offseason.

Perhaps we should look into a call to Jon Daniels’ office? Now that Smoak is gone, they could be looking for a veteran 1B to carry the load rather than the less certain Chris Davis. Daniels seems perfectly prepared to mortgage the future and go all-out this year (ergo, overpay), especially with the ownership concerns, and Sabean has already gotten Edwin Escobar and Michael Main from him this season.

If Molina gets Main, Huff gets Scheppers or Perez, and though in real life Daniels is never letting go of Martin Perez, I would gladly accept 2-3 prospects in the Rangers’ 5-10 range.

Rooting for Jose Casilla to take his K- and GB-inducing skills to the majors and join his brother.

by dregarx on Jul 10, 2010 9:17 AM PDT up reply actions  

FWIW

The fans – and players – will riot if Huff is traded when we’re still “in this thing”. I’d only trade him if we’re 7-8 games out at the deadline, and still in 4th place (as opposed to Uribe, who should be kept anyway, as he’s got a decent chance to be a type A, and wouldn’t be a terrible option for SS next year).

I was promised lasagna.

by Cookyman on Jul 10, 2010 9:43 AM PDT up reply actions  

Yes. Uribe and Torres should stick around.

I wanted to trade Freddy Sanchez back when his average was around .340, but it’s too late now.

Rooting for Jose Casilla to take his K- and GB-inducing skills to the majors and join his brother.

by dregarx on Jul 10, 2010 9:49 AM PDT up reply actions  

I don’t know if MLB GM’s are quite as reactionary as you’re making them sound. I’m not sure that Sanchez’s trade value has really changed that much over the past month or so.

I was promised lasagna.

by Cookyman on Jul 10, 2010 9:57 AM PDT up reply actions  

Perhaps not, but even so, I would have liked to eke out as much value as possible from that horrible resigning (and trade), and we likely could have gotten a little more a month ago than now in a trade.

Holding on to him, of course, is exactly the wrong way to go about getting value from him with that contract.

Rooting for Jose Casilla to take his K- and GB-inducing skills to the majors and join his brother.

by dregarx on Jul 10, 2010 10:11 AM PDT up reply actions  

BTW, do you know if there’s any rule regarding when you can trade players you signed as FA? I would think that you can’t trade a player the day after you signed him, for example.

I was promised lasagna.

by Cookyman on Jul 10, 2010 10:45 AM PDT up reply actions  

I think there's a June deadline or something like that

Or like a 5 month gap? I can’t recall who I said it, but after Sabean signed DeRosa, someone here answered that question.

Aaron King is still my homeboy... iffy mechanics and all

McFAQ for all you newcomers out there.

by baetown415 on Jul 10, 2010 10:56 AM PDT up reply actions  

I don’t, sorry.

Rooting for Jose Casilla to take his K- and GB-inducing skills to the majors and join his brother.

by dregarx on Jul 10, 2010 11:16 AM PDT up reply actions  

IIRC it's June 15 for FA's

1 calendar year for draft picks and IFA’s

Proud father of Mike Krukow (who is more than 3 times my age)
Grab Some Pine, Meat
Still cheering for Kevin Frandsen
John Bowker: One of the 3 best OF's on the Giants roster

by Gobroks on Jul 11, 2010 7:09 PM PDT up reply actions  

Sanchez

Very valuable. Good in the 2 slot and very good defensively. The

Further, the Giants are not strong in the organization at 2b and SS.

Uribe has had a nice little run, but his drop off was not unexpected and I still think he’s best suited to be a 3-4 game a week guy.
SS in particular is a HUGE hole. Crawford is at least a year away – now with the injury probably 2. And as much as I root for him, there is a question as to whether he can hit enough. That leaves Burriss. While I like his glove and his speed, his bat is suspect to say the least. And he has to prove that he can stay healthy.

At second, There is Bond. Great minor league numbers. But he is NEVER mentioned as a potential call up etc. So what gives? Downs is a utility player. Ditto Rowlinger. Gillaspie has been playing some second base. But so far he’s been a dissapointment.

If the Giants are sellers, I hope they look to improve their MIF situation with a couple prospects.

by lexluth7 on Jul 10, 2010 1:19 PM PDT up reply actions  

Sanchez is a nice player but again is replaceible at reasonible rates with by a GM with his head out of his arse. As with Huff if someone was offering soemthing useful we would be follish not to take the trade.

Don’t let the nice trip through the cellar dwellars fool you. This team is still – 11 under 500 Vs the NL West and teams that are 500 or better while being 6 games back in teh divsion trailing 3 teams. Teams do not come back from those kind of holes very often. go ahead an cruise through that back years at B-R.com and find me the expample were they have. It will not be long list.

Threat level that the 2010 Pads finish with more wins than the 2010 Giants is currently at: 61%

Spoiler: Grumpy older Giants fan is Grumpy.

by daveinexile on Jul 12, 2010 12:28 PM PDT up reply actions  

By what?

“replaceible at reasonible rates” Name them.

The team is, at the ASB, projecting 84 wins, and yes, three other teams in the division are projecting more. But it would be madness to assume that the Giants Molina-less (and presumaly Wellemeyer-less) second half will be just a repeat of the first half. They are 4 games out: that is scarcely an insurmountable barrier for a much-improved team.

Professional baseball analyst since 1980.

by owlcroft on Jul 12, 2010 4:14 PM PDT up reply actions  

I made the comment with free agent market prices in mind. I was going under the worse case scenario: no one in house ready to step up to MLB without a Bocock action ( from low A to the majors…really now Sabean that is stain worse than dog pee left on the rug). I’ll try and re-find the list of second baseman singed to contracts more than $5MM per year again since the July 07. It is very short and Giants have 2 of them if you count DeRosa .

Threat level that the 2010 Pads finish with more wins than the 2010 Giants is currently at: 61%

Spoiler: Grumpy older Giants fan is Grumpy.

by daveinexile on Jul 13, 2010 7:29 AM PDT up reply actions  

I quickly knocked back together that list.

Kaz Matsui – 3ys/$16 MM – Astros

Mark Ellis – 2 yrs /$11MM – A’s

Chone Figgens – 4years/$36MM- Mariners

Dan Uggla – 1yr/$7.8MM arbitration- Marlins

Dan Uggla – 1yr/$5.350MM arbitration – Marlins

Luis Castillio- 4yr/$25MM – Mets

Brain Roberts- 4yrs/$40MM – O’s

Chase Utley – 7yrs/$85MM –

Phillies, This contract was signed the off season before the ’07 season but will include it under the heading giving the benefit of the doubt and that the Philliess are paying for it still.

Placido Polanco – 3yrs/ $18MM- the Phillies. He is playing 3rd this year but 8k+ innings at 2nd aa full season there as recently as last year I think it is fair to include him.

Ian Kinsler – 4yrs/$22MM with club option for a 5th year- Rangers

Brandon Philips – 4yrs/ $27MM with club option of 5th year- Reds

Dustin Pedoria- 6 yrs/$40MM with club option for 5th year. – Red Sox

Orlando Hudson- 1year $5MM- Twins

Robinson Cano- 4yrs/$30MM- Yankees

#######

So what we have is a list of 12 non Giants names with a couple double entries and removing 2 of the deepest pockets in the game from any free agent bidding wars ( Yanks & Red Sox). That list holds probably the upper tiers of 2nd basemen in Cano, Pedoria, Kinsler, Utley & Roberts. I think Uggla & Phillips are a bit behind the group but still above Sanchez & DeRosa.
 
So that leaves a list of 5 second baseman get $5MM a year , or more, on contracts since July ’07 in Matzui, Castillio, Palanco and Hudson. One of those contracts is a 1 year commitment ( Hudson) One contract is a team desperately needing help at another position before their window closes( Polanco) and a third is out of MLB last I looked.

The lesson I see here is if pay more then $5mm/yr over multiple years at 2nd base you better have the elite level guy signing the contract or you better off going cheep and seeing if an unknown putting thinks together in the sub $4MM-4.5MM /yr category,

Threat level that the 2010 Pads finish with more wins than the 2010 Giants is currently at: 61%

Spoiler: Grumpy older Giants fan is Grumpy.

by daveinexile on Jul 13, 2010 8:50 AM PDT up reply actions  

Perhaps not.

If you take that list and for each man assign a single-number offense metric, then divide his pay per year by that metric, you get a sort of dollars-per-run figure. The exact metric used is not important: they should all roughly align.

If we use just 2010-to-date offense metrics, of the 14 men (including FSanchez), FSanchez is #6 of 14, which is to say roughly mid-pack in offense bang for the buck in 2010. While that is based on performance that one can reasonably expect to go up over the second half of the season (lowering the $-per cost), the same can be said of some others on the list, so let’s just go with what we’ve got.

It’s not a bright-line proof of anything, but it does rather suggest that FSanchez is being paid roughly mid-pack money for his offense as a 2B, and his value is augmented by his glove.

For the curious, the list is below. The offense metric is the TOP; properly that should be described as “runs”, but I have called it “points” to keep it simple. The data are TOP, annual cost in millions, and $/point:

Brian Roberts – 277 : $10.00 = $36,101/point
Kaz Matsui – 172 : $5.33 = $31,008/point
Chone Figgens – 533 : $9.00 = $16,886/point
Chase Utley – 1037 : $12.14 = $11,707/point
Luis Castillio – 601 : $6.25 = $10,399/point
Freddy Sanchez – 696 : $5.50 = $7,902/point
Mark Ellis – 698 : $5.50 = $7,880/point
Dan Uggla – 1026 : $7.80 = $7,602/point
Brandon Philips – 922 : $6.75 = $7,321/point
Placido Polanco – 831 : $6.00 = $7,220/point
Dustin Pedroia – 1022 : $6.67 = $6,526/point
Orlando Hudson – 783 : $5.00 = $6,386/point
Robinson Cano – 1261 : $7.50 = $5,948/point
Ian Kinsler – 1019 : $5.50 = $5,397/point

Professional baseball analyst since 1980.

by owlcroft on Jul 13, 2010 4:10 PM PDT up reply actions  

Not exactly. Well, maybe. I may have to re-check the strength of schedule (essentially, how many more games against LA, COL, and SD as opposed to the NL Central and East).

Rooting for Jose Casilla to take his K- and GB-inducing skills to the majors and join his brother.

The Kids: Lewis, Posey, Sandoval, Bowker, Schierholtz, Frandsen, Ishikawa, Amezaga... CHONE WAR projection= 12.7

Current Team: Rowand, Sanchez, DeRosa, Sandoval, Huff, Molina, Renteria, Schierholtz... CHONE WAR projection= 12.6

by dregarx on Jul 9, 2010 9:56 PM PDT up reply actions  

Use the median not the mean.

By Pujois, Texeira, Howard and a couple others. How does Huff compare to the mediam as opposed to the mean??

by lexluth7 on Jul 9, 2010 10:57 PM PDT up reply actions  

Interim report:

(While I do more homework.)

Using just 2010 stats, and trying to identify who each team’s “regular first baseman” is, I reckon Huff is the #8 first baseman in MLB, and the #4 in the NL. I will post again after compiling career stat lines. (I really should automate all this, but I’m lazy.)

Professional baseball analyst since 1980.

by owlcroft on Jul 9, 2010 11:27 PM PDT up reply actions  

Rough estimate:

On careeer data, with some important caveats I’ll list in a moment, Huff looks like he’s slightly below the median. I make him #19 of current regular first basemen, with a metric not far from the median: his is 912, while the median would be somewhere around 990.

Caveats:

1. No correction whatever for park factors.

2. Won’t swear I identified all men correctly: I go by the position designation ESPN assigns them.

If we mix metrics, and compare his 2010 with the others’ career stats, he would be #7 overall. That proves nothing, but is an interesting stat. If his new walks rate is “sticky”, his value going forward—considering that several of the men ahead of him are clearly in decline—would probably be somewhere at the first-quartile/second-quartile divide. That seems good enough for another year or so of play time.

Professional baseball analyst since 1980.

by owlcroft on Jul 9, 2010 11:46 PM PDT up reply actions  

Travis Ishikawa: not a major-league corner bat. As to the value of a weak-bat/good-glove 1B, ask Skip James.

Hmm, that’s not usually something in the oevrue of the delta blues

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by DrStankus on Jul 8, 2010 3:58 PM PDT reply actions  

Interesting analysis. Thanks, owlcroft.

by Dan from NM on Jul 8, 2010 7:51 PM PDT reply actions  

Finally read it. Did not disappoint.

Giant Dirtbags: John Bowker, Steve Hammond, Brian Anderson.
Jeremy Affeldt induces DP's

by Giant among Angels on Jul 8, 2010 8:37 PM PDT reply actions  

FYI

Andres Torres is under team control for the next few years. So, I don’t think there’s any need to sign him to a major contract.

by seaborn on Jul 10, 2010 10:29 AM PDT reply actions  

I too finally got around to reading it all, and I was suitably rewarded for the time it took.

Thanks owlcroft.

Six games out isn’t the same as six games out.

He is the World's Most Annoying Rooster.

by gallo del cielo on Jul 10, 2010 3:09 PM PDT reply actions  

So to speak.

It may just be me, but it just looks as if, regardless of actual W/L results, like the team is playing a lot brisker (or some such word) since the Molina trade. From the very first post-trade game, they just seem to come out on the field looking livelier and more confident. Maybe it’s just my imagination, but they looked awfully flat before and don’t at all now.

Professional baseball analyst since 1980.

by owlcroft on Jul 10, 2010 3:20 PM PDT up reply actions  

I agree, subjective though the observation might be. Guys as old as I deserve a subjective observation now and then.

He is the World's Most Annoying Rooster.

by gallo del cielo on Jul 10, 2010 3:27 PM PDT up reply actions   1 recs

Amen.

Professional baseball analyst since 1980.

by owlcroft on Jul 10, 2010 3:38 PM PDT up reply actions   1 recs

Sanchez ...

Freddy Sanchez has been a disappointment. They should play two out of F.Sanchez, Renteria and Sandoval depending upon the matchup. For now, I would drop F. Sanchez more than he has been rested.

by Prasenjit on Jul 11, 2010 9:58 AM PDT reply actions  

SSS

FSanchez is a batter whose value lies almost wholly in his BA, which is subject to much more variation than most other stats. Also, this season he—like many other Giants—has raised his walks rate considerably, which artificially affects his BA because of that idiot a century ago (or whatever) who decided that hits should be counted relative to the completely artitificial “at bats” rather than simple plate appearances. So increased walks squeeze “at bats” and can change the BA with no change in the H/PA ratio. In 2010, FSanchez is 6 hits under expectations (from career), but 8 walks over. His net offensive value is a little down right now because his TB total is down a bit—lacking 3 doubles and a couple of HR from expectations. But that is small enough stuff that it can be made up in the second half.

The best middle IF rotation is probably FSanchz 5/6, Renteria 5/6, and Uribe 2/6 (with the rest of his time at 3B spelling Panda, but that takes us farther afield.)

Professional baseball analyst since 1980.

by owlcroft on Jul 11, 2010 1:58 PM PDT up reply actions  

It’s hard to imagine an optimal MI rotation that include Sanchez facing a large number of RHP. I don’t know what your personal philosophy is on platoon splits, but Sanchez has been consistently execrable over a 2358 PA sample.

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by Bhaakon on Jul 11, 2010 4:41 PM PDT up reply actions  

That depends . . .

. . . on how one thinks of the term “everyday player”. With such players, one takes the bad with the good as to platoon splits. His OPS vs RHP is around .700, while vs LHP it’s around .900. Is the latter worth enduring the former?

I see he has faced LHP 25% of the time, which strikes me as a little low—I’d expect more like 1/3 than 1/4, though I haven’t looked into it in years. In any event, his overall OPS is around .750, so vs RHP he is at around 93% of his total value, which seems acceptable (if you find his total value acceptable).

For my money, he is a slightly above-average offense for 2B with a good glove. You could fare farther and do worse.

Professional baseball analyst since 1980.

by owlcroft on Jul 11, 2010 7:08 PM PDT up reply actions  

Congrats, you got the "SB Nation Bay Area Editor's Pick"

Whatever the hell that means.

Proud father of 2-time Cy Young Award winner Tim Lincecum
"Failure is not fatal, but failure to change might be." - John Wooden

by SFGuy on Jul 11, 2010 7:15 PM PDT up reply actions  

I think of an "everyday player" as one who lacks such an obvious, important, and easily addressed flaw.

If a guy is a tremendous liability in 2/3-2/4 of his plate appearances due to circumstances that are known beforehand and potentially exploitable by the opposition, then he’s not really an everyday player.

VAE PVTO DEVS FIO

by Bhaakon on Jul 11, 2010 8:21 PM PDT up reply actions  

An "everyday player" . . .

. . . is one who is played more or less every day. When played more or less every day, which is most of his career, FSanchez has put up numbers that are not dramatic but are quite acceptable for a middle infielder with a reasonably good glove. Personally, I’d prefer yet a bit more offense, but I’m picky.

I also wonder whatever “easily addressed” could signify: platoon differentials are close to impossible to do anything about. If you are suggesting platooning him, be advised that platoons invariably are hard on the RHB component (which would be him) because RHP predominates, and are in general A Bad Thing.

Professional baseball analyst since 1980.

by owlcroft on Jul 12, 2010 2:06 AM PDT up reply actions  

There are ways to minimize the impact of massive platoon split without strictly platooning a player.

Pinch hitting for him in high leverage situations, for instance, can mitigate much of the actual impact of the bad split without inducing the rust factor of a straight platoon. The player has to have a huge split to make it worthwhile (since pinch hitters are at an additional disadvantage), but Sanchez’s splits are massive.

VAE PVTO DEVS FIO

by Bhaakon on Jul 12, 2010 9:18 PM PDT up reply actions  

this thread is why i fucking hate stat heads

there are lies, damn lies and then there are statistics

which never take the intangibles into consideration

so posey aint doing great cuz his walk rate blows?

so we dont take into consideration that nate production fall off came exactly at the point when he tried to play through a shoulder injury

dont know what is wrong with rowand? he had his face busted up…thats what

fuck stat head motherfuckers

if baseball was meant to be played on a strato-matic, the players would be made out of fucking cardboard

by bacci40 on Jul 12, 2010 3:29 AM PDT reply actions  

there are lies, damn lies and then there are statistics

lol this quote

Ask me about my blog.

by xanthan on Jul 12, 2010 6:02 AM PDT up reply actions  

real baseball fans only use cliches

and lowercase fucking letters

and fuck punctuation too

by Evan on Jul 12, 2010 6:40 AM PDT up reply actions  

at this point this quote is almost exclusively used by people who desire not to learn something.

Mark DeRosa just got the damn surgery.

by oldjacket on Jul 12, 2010 10:21 AM PDT up reply actions  

I love this.

Ask me about my blog.

by xanthan on Jul 13, 2010 7:34 AM PDT up reply actions  

i think i am in love.

Threat level that the 2010 Pads finish with more wins than the 2010 Giants is currently at: 61%

Spoiler: Grumpy older Giants fan is Grumpy.

by daveinexile on Jul 13, 2010 8:58 AM PDT up reply actions  

There are lies, damn lies, and graphs!

(rec’d)

Proud father of Mike Krukow (who is more than 3 times my age)
Grab Some Pine, Meat
Still cheering for Kevin Frandsen
John Bowker: One of the 3 best OF's on the Giants roster

by Gobroks on Jul 13, 2010 9:57 PM PDT up reply actions  

What is fucking cardboard? Is there a new kink that I’m missing out on?

by sarf_london_niner on Jul 12, 2010 8:05 AM PDT up reply actions  

WEll we all ganged up and dragged you kiccking and screaming in here.

And even gamblers that ride through life by the seat of their pants play odds Baccci. Here he/we are just beinga bit more open about how we figure the odds.

Threat level that the 2010 Pads finish with more wins than the 2010 Giants is currently at: 61%

Spoiler: Grumpy older Giants fan is Grumpy.

by daveinexile on Jul 12, 2010 12:33 PM PDT up reply actions  

They are called "intangible" . . .

. . . because they are intangible, as defined in, for example, the American Heritage Dictionary:

1. “incapable of being perceived by the senses.”
2. “incapable of being realized or defined.”
It has been wisely said that you can know a man—or, I suppose, an idea—by his (or its) enemies.


Thank you for that illuminating commentary.

Professional baseball analyst since 1980.

by owlcroft on Jul 12, 2010 4:19 PM PDT up reply actions  

Wow, almost 1,000 comments on McC and you hate stats? How do you read this site and restrain your (presumably constant) rage?

The #1 greatest threat to America: BEARS

by norcalnick on Jul 12, 2010 10:20 PM PDT up reply actions  

AS OPPOSED to walk rate

What is the rate of 3-2 count pitches that were clearly balls, that
Uribe swung and missed. Some of those came with the bases
loaded and two outs, so instead of taking a run, he just K’d.

by bradleybear on Jul 13, 2010 3:28 PM PDT reply actions  

It would be interesting to know.

It would be much more interesting to know seen in context against league average and some representative other batters. If someone has the time and patience to do this, which I do not, please post it. I suspect, though, that the 3-2/bases-loaded cases will be so few as to be statistically insignificant.

Professional baseball analyst since 1980.

by owlcroft on Jul 13, 2010 4:13 PM PDT up reply actions  

I definitely didn't agree with all of this

but, I had lots of fun reading it nonetheless, so thanks a lot for taking all the time to write it. I wish there had been more about the starting pitchers, just because you took so much time with almost all of the other players.

by ololo3 on Jul 13, 2010 10:27 PM PDT reply actions  

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