Giants trade away left-handed power bat, acquire marginal relievers. Oh, that makes sense.
by Grant Brisbee on Jul 31, 2010 1:39 PM PDT
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PrintHilarious. John Bowker and Joe Martinez for Javier Lopez. When I think scrapheap lefty, Lopez is who I'm thinking of. Trading a low-cost, low-upside starting pitcher is iffy enough. But Bowker? They traded five years of John Bowker for 20 innings of Lopez?
Here's Luke Scott in the minors:
| Year | Age | Tm | Lg | Lev | Aff | G | PA | AB | R | H | 2B | 3B | HR | RBI | SB | CS | BB | SO | BA | OBP | SLG | OPS | TB | GDP | HBP | SH | SF | IBB |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| 2002 | 24 | 2 Teams | 2 Lgs | A-A+ | CLE | 97 | 384 | 334 | 50 | 83 | 22 | 5 | 15 | 62 | 11 | 2 | 37 | 105 | .249 | .336 | .479 | .815 | 160 | 5 | 8 | 3 | 2 | 0 |
| 2002 | 24 | Columbus | SALL | A | CLE | 49 | 198 | 171 | 28 | 44 | 15 | 4 | 7 | 32 | 9 | 1 | 21 | 58 | .257 | .345 | .515 | .860 | 88 | 3 | 3 | 1 | 2 | 0 |
| 2002 | 24 | Kinston | CARL | A+ | CLE | 48 | 186 | 163 | 22 | 39 | 7 | 1 | 8 | 30 | 2 | 1 | 16 | 47 | .239 | .326 | .442 | .768 | 72 | 2 | 5 | 2 | 0 | 0 |
| 2003 | 25 | 2 Teams | 2 Lgs | A+-AA | CLE | 117 | 474 | 424 | 58 | 117 | 25 | 2 | 20 | 81 | 6 | 4 | 38 | 99 | .276 | .342 | .486 | .828 | 206 | 2 | 6 | 3 | 3 | 0 |
| 2003 | 25 | Kinston | CARL | A+ | CLE | 67 | 272 | 241 | 37 | 67 | 12 | 1 | 13 | 44 | 6 | 3 | 27 | 62 | .278 | .360 | .498 | .858 | 120 | 0 | 4 | 0 | 0 | 0 |
| 2003 | 25 | Akron | EL | AA | CLE | 50 | 202 | 183 | 21 | 50 | 13 | 1 | 7 | 37 | 0 | 1 | 11 | 37 | .273 | .317 | .470 | .787 | 86 | 2 | 2 | 3 | 3 | 0 |
| 2004 | 26 | 2 Teams | 2 Lgs | A+-AA | HOU | 129 | 540 | 449 | 90 | 129 | 37 | 1 | 27 | 97 | 6 | 3 | 74 | 101 | .287 | .388 | .555 | .942 | 249 | 9 | 6 | 1 | 10 | 5 |
| 2004 | 26 | Salem | CARL | A+ | HOU | 66 | 287 | 241 | 45 | 67 | 20 | 1 | 8 | 35 | 6 | 1 | 41 | 58 | .278 | .376 | .469 | .845 | 113 | 5 | 0 | 0 | 5 | 4 |
| 2004 | 26 | Round Rock | TL | AA | HOU | 63 | 253 | 208 | 45 | 62 | 17 | 0 | 19 | 62 | 0 | 2 | 33 | 43 | .298 | .401 | .654 | 1.055 | 136 | 4 | 6 | 1 | 5 | 1 |
| 2005 | 27 | Round Rock | PCL | AAA | HOU | 103 | 449 | 398 | 69 | 114 | 25 | 4 | 31 | 87 | 2 | 2 | 43 | 96 | .286 | .363 | .603 | .966 | 240 | 4 | 6 | 0 | 2 | 1 |
| 2006 | 28 | Round Rock | PCL | AAA | HOU | 87 | 381 | 318 | 63 | 95 | 15 | 1 | 20 | 63 | 6 | 1 | 52 | 66 | .299 | .400 | .541 | .941 | 172 | 3 | 5 | 1 | 5 | 6 |
| 7 Seasons | 538 | 2245 | 1936 | 332 | 543 | 124 | 13 | 114 | 393 | 31 | 12 | 248 | 468 | .280 | .367 | .535 | .902 | 1035 | 23 | 31 | 8 | 22 | 12 | |||||
| A+ (3 seasons) | 181 | 745 | 645 | 104 | 173 | 39 | 3 | 29 | 109 | 14 | 5 | 84 | 167 | .268 | .358 | .473 | .831 | 305 | 7 | 9 | 2 | 5 | 4 | |||||
| A (2 seasons) | 51 | 204 | 175 | 29 | 47 | 15 | 4 | 8 | 33 | 9 | 1 | 23 | 58 | .269 | .360 | .537 | .897 | 94 | 3 | 3 | 1 | 2 | 0 | |||||
| AA (2 seasons) | 113 | 455 | 391 | 66 | 112 | 30 | 1 | 26 | 99 | 0 | 3 | 44 | 80 | .286 | .364 | .568 | .931 | 222 | 6 | 8 | 4 | 8 | 1 | |||||
| AAA (2 seasons) | 190 | 830 | 716 | 132 | 209 | 40 | 5 | 51 | 150 | 8 | 3 | 95 | 162 | .292 | .380 | .575 | .955 | 412 | 7 | 11 | 1 | 7 | 7 | |||||
| Rk (1 season) | 3 | 11 | 9 | 1 | 2 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 2 | 0 | 0 | 2 | 1 | .222 | .364 | .222 | .586 | 2 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | |||||
Here's John Bowker:
| Year | Age | Tm | Lg | Lev | Aff | G | PA | AB | R | H | 2B | 3B | HR | RBI | SB | CS | BB | SO | BA | OBP | SLG | OPS | TB | GDP | HBP | SH | SF | IBB |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| 2004 | 20 | 2 Teams | 2 Lgs | A--Rk | SFG | 41 | 191 | 170 | 37 | 63 | 16 | 3 | 6 | 27 | 2 | 0 | 15 | 36 | .371 | .440 | .606 | 1.046 | 103 | 6 | 6 | 0 | 0 | 2 |
| 2004 | 20 | Giants | ARIZ | Rk | SFG | 10 | 50 | 43 | 14 | 22 | 7 | 1 | 2 | 11 | 1 | 0 | 7 | 11 | .512 | .580 | .860 | 1.440 | 37 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 |
| 2004 | 20 | Salem-Keizer | NORW | A- | SFG | 31 | 141 | 127 | 23 | 41 | 9 | 2 | 4 | 16 | 1 | 0 | 8 | 25 | .323 | .390 | .520 | .910 | 66 | 5 | 6 | 0 | 0 | 2 |
| 2005 | 21 | San Jose | CALL | A+ | SFG | 121 | 513 | 464 | 66 | 124 | 27 | 1 | 13 | 67 | 3 | 7 | 36 | 108 | .267 | .319 | .414 | .733 | 192 | 14 | 3 | 2 | 8 | 0 |
| 2006 | 22 | 2 Teams | 2 Lgs | A+-AAA | SFG | 114 | 515 | 466 | 61 | 133 | 32 | 6 | 7 | 66 | 6 | 3 | 37 | 100 | .285 | .339 | .425 | .763 | 198 | 12 | 2 | 7 | 3 | 3 |
| 2006 | 22 | San Jose | CALL | A+ | SFG | 112 | 511 | 462 | 61 | 131 | 32 | 6 | 7 | 66 | 6 | 3 | 37 | 100 | .284 | .337 | .424 | .762 | 196 | 12 | 2 | 7 | 3 | 3 |
| 2006 | 22 | Fresno | PCL | AAA | SFG | 2 | 4 | 4 | 0 | 2 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | .500 | .500 | .500 | 1.000 | 2 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 |
| 2007 | 23 | Connecticut | EL | AA | SFG | 139 | 587 | 522 | 79 | 160 | 35 | 6 | 22 | 90 | 3 | 7 | 41 | 103 | .307 | .363 | .523 | .886 | 273 | 17 | 12 | 0 | 12 | 1 |
| 2008 | 24 | Fresno | PCL | AAA | SFG | 23 | 102 | 93 | 13 | 22 | 3 | 1 | 2 | 9 | 2 | 0 | 7 | 23 | .237 | .304 | .355 | .659 | 33 | 1 | 2 | 0 | 0 | 0 |
| 2009 | 25 | Fresno | PCL | AAA | SFG | 104 | 450 | 366 | 82 | 125 | 22 | 4 | 21 | 83 | 10 | 6 | 74 | 64 | .342 | .451 | .596 | 1.047 | 218 | 6 | 4 | 0 | 6 | 6 |
| 2010 | 26 | Fresno | PCL | AAA | SFG | 51 | 224 | 197 | 36 | 61 | 12 | 1 | 14 | 36 | 1 | 2 | 23 | 37 | .310 | .388 | .594 | .982 | 117 | 8 | 3 | 0 | 1 | 3 |
| 7 Seasons | 593 | 2582 | 2278 | 374 | 688 | 147 | 22 | 85 | 378 | 27 | 25 | 233 | 471 | .302 | .370 | .498 | .868 | 1134 | 64 | 32 | 9 | 30 | 15 | |||||
| AAA (4 seasons) | 180 | 780 | 660 | 131 | 210 | 37 | 6 | 37 | 128 | 13 | 8 | 104 | 124 | .318 | .414 | .561 | .975 | 370 | 15 | 9 | 0 | 7 | 9 | |||||
| A+ (2 seasons) | 233 | 1024 | 926 | 127 | 255 | 59 | 7 | 20 | 133 | 9 | 10 | 73 | 208 | .275 | .328 | .419 | .747 | 388 | 26 | 5 | 9 | 11 | 3 | |||||
| AA (1 season) | 139 | 587 | 522 | 79 | 160 | 35 | 6 | 22 | 90 | 3 | 7 | 41 | 103 | .307 | .363 | .523 | .886 | 273 | 17 | 12 | 0 | 12 | 1 | |||||
| Rk (1 season) | 10 | 50 | 43 | 14 | 22 | 7 | 1 | 2 | 11 | 1 | 0 | 7 | 11 | .512 | .580 | .860 | 1.440 | 37 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | |||||
| A- (1 season) | 31 | 141 | 127 | 23 | 41 | 9 | 2 | 4 | 16 | 1 | 0 | 8 | 25 | .323 | .390 | .520 | .910 | 66 | 5 | 6 | 0 | 0 | 2 | |||||
Kind of eerie, no? It's not necessarily likely that Bowker will turn into Scott, but there was a chance -- a real chance -- that Bowker would provide some sort of value to the Giants. He even won the starting right field job in April. But here's what turns Bowker into a throw-in for a guy who can't throw strikes or strike lefties out:
That's all the Giants needed to watch to make up their minds. That's what turns a starting RF into a scrub LHRP. It didn't matter that Bowker went back to AAA and continued to mash.
If Lopez is perfect, shutting down lefties with runners on at every opportunity, and if the Giants make the playoffs by a single game, maybe this isn't a complete debacle. Maybe that would give the Giants some kind of value.
So let's all just hope for that unlikely sequence of events.
Disgusting. Just disgusting.
Don't forget, though! We also acquired Ramon Ramirez, whom a contending team didn't want. It should be fun to see what comes back.
Enjoy, Pirates. You can shut up about Armando Rios now.
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ha ha
by far that worst trade he has ever made? that is pretty comical
by FluLikeSymptoms on Jul 31, 2010 1:52 PM PDT up reply actions
LOL No
…I love Bowker but those guys in Minnesota are looking like decent pitchers,
Proud father of Mike Krukow (who is more than 3 times my age)
Grab Some Pine, Meat
Still cheering for Kevin Frandsen
John Bowker: One of the 3 best OF's on the Giants roster
If this was the worst trade he ever made he’d be a pretty good GM
Thing A
"Correlation between inability to use the reply button and general crappiness of analysis: pretty high." -Sleepy Freud
No, no he wouldn't
Because he’s made a number of others that were just like it and trades are only one part of being a GM, what if he, oh I don’t know, signed some guy for 12 mil a year and that player was so awful that he was relegated to 4th OF duty, then signed a pitcher for more than 100 mil. and that pitcher pitched like a number 4 or 5 starter. Than even if he made decent trades he’d still be an awful GM.
Giants best trade option: Bowker for Rowand
by Giant Torture on Jul 31, 2010 7:52 PM PDT up reply actions
I might have over-reacted at the moment, in the heat of things… but you know what? If John Bowker goes on to be a 25-30 HR guy, and Joe Martinez turns into the Pirates #3 starter, which I expect he will… it’s going to be close.
This is pretty much what happens when YOU HAVE TO TRADE FOR A BULLPEN OH MY GOD. I’m just glad it wasn’t Neal.
"I just struck out looking three times, but in any other ballpark those would have been home runs." - Aubrey Huff
That said, neither Bowker nor Martinez had future’s on a Sabean team. So at least it’s an asinine trade that is good for both of them.
"I just struck out looking three times, but in any other ballpark those would have been home runs." - Aubrey Huff
by howtheyscored on Jul 31, 2010 1:43 PM PDT up reply actions
futures, too.
"I just struck out looking three times, but in any other ballpark those would have been home runs." - Aubrey Huff
by howtheyscored on Jul 31, 2010 1:43 PM PDT up reply actions
Rooting so hard for Bowker now. What a day by the Pirates.
by Grant Brisbee on Jul 31, 2010 1:44 PM PDT up reply actions
Seems like for the last few years we have been saying the Pirates had a good deadline day. Just maybe they will win 80 games one of these years.
by theimmortalbenard on Jul 31, 2010 1:54 PM PDT up reply actions
Yeah
But they also haven’t been targeting contention for these last few seasons. 2012 probably. I really like what they’ve done, I don’t think people realize how deep the hole the entire organization was in.
Juan "Doesn't Cheat The Game" Perez, please keep hitting.
Thank you
Adjust that date to 2013 and you’ll be spot on. Well 2013 is playoffs (optimistically) 2012 may be a winning season.
Da'Sean Butler - A Mountaineer Legend
by McCutchenIsTheTruth on Jul 31, 2010 4:20 PM PDT up reply actions
A winning season might be all it takes to make the playoffs in that division.
THE GREATEST OF ALL TIME (for 3 days in 1995).
by Mike Benjamin Hit King on Jul 31, 2010 4:28 PM PDT up reply actions
True
I see us as a darkhorse next year which is the first time you could say that in forever. (legitimately of course)
Da'Sean Butler - A Mountaineer Legend
by McCutchenIsTheTruth on Jul 31, 2010 5:46 PM PDT up reply actions
Yeah
2012 is an optimistic number, but I have faith in Huntington. Especially given what he did this deadline.
Juan "Doesn't Cheat The Game" Perez, please keep hitting.
FFFFFFFFFFUUUUUU
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"Out, out, Fred Lewis!" - JCTillam Gamerspeare
We also acquired Ramon Ramirez, whom a contending team didn’t want.
This is not good
I would like to talk to you about my pokemonz
The Red Sox have been searching for Bullpen help too...
Proud father of Mike Krukow (who is more than 3 times my age)
Grab Some Pine, Meat
Still cheering for Kevin Frandsen
John Bowker: One of the 3 best OF's on the Giants roster
Buster Olney saying Giants would be the ones to claim Dunn if he goes on waivers.
Bruce Bochy would like you to look at the career numbers and stop complaining.
Bob Howry's #1 (and only) fan!!!
The Merkin Valdez of McCovey Chronicles!!!!!!
That makes me feel soooo much better.
Q: Did you ever make an offer for Vladimir Guerrero?
Sabean: In a word: No. If we had signed Guerrero or [Gary] Sheffield, we would have been without [Long list of replacement level vets]—obviously not being able to field a competitive team, especially from an experience standpoint, given our level of spending.
I think that their asking price was Dunn was out of line. They tell teams that Edwin Jackson is the key to getting Dunn, and then when the White Sox get Jackson they’re still unable to work out a deal. They wanted Sanchez or Bumgarner for two months of Dunn, and it just isn’t worth that. Sign him after the season and give up nothing.
Buster Posey: Let's enjoy him before he goes to the Yankees.
by rxmeister on Jul 31, 2010 2:29 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions
I always thought we should have done that *before* this season
"The two worst things in football are: 1) They think that a 30-year old professional athlete has to be locked up in a hotel room, with a curfew, the night before a qame; and 2) They're right."
- Cowboy safety Cliff Harris
THIS!
Where’s that Sabean quote about Dunn playing defense in “Our ballpark?” He had no interest when he could have had him for 2/20, but now he’s interested when it’s gonna cost Sanchez?
Q: Did you ever make an offer for Vladimir Guerrero?
Sabean: In a word: No. If we had signed Guerrero or [Gary] Sheffield, we would have been without [Long list of replacement level vets]—obviously not being able to field a competitive team, especially from an experience standpoint, given our level of spending.
He was a free agent following the ‘08 season, not after last year, and I don’t think many people in the front office thought that signing an expensive free agent to a team with too many expensive free agents coming off a 72-90 season was a good idea. Dunn made no sense for us when he was available as a FA, and he made some sense last year, but by then he was already with the Nats.
Ain't no Posey like a Buster Posey cause a Buster Posey don't stop...hitting.
Giants baseball: We're stupid enough to do that (TM)
Just wanted to remind you that Dunn got basically the same contract as Renteria. Carry on, then.
Quietly hoping Brandon Belt develops into John Olerud, circa 1993.
by AndOnTheDrums... on Jul 31, 2010 11:39 PM PDT up reply actions
And...
He makes less money than Aaron Rowand. Way to go Sabean, you ass-clown, but it’s all forgiven because you try really hard and care so much—also way to go Baggerly, Schulman et. al., thanks for calling attention to our ridiculously awful GM, hard hitting journalism at its best.
Giants best trade option: Bowker for Rowand
by Giant Torture on Aug 1, 2010 5:12 AM PDT up reply actions
Ramon Ramirez is the kind of guy where you look at his stats page and there’s just nothing that stands out as a positive. Replacement level reliever through and through.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"Out, out, Fred Lewis!" - JCTillam Gamerspeare
Waiting on the name of the Giant that got traded for Ramirez. I get the following:
AmalieBenjamin
#RedSox announce they acquired Saltalamacchia for 1B Chris McGuinness, RHP Roman Mendez, PTBNL and cash.
Dearest, Susan - The Patron Saint of Patience
by Lars The Wanderer on Jul 31, 2010 1:46 PM PDT reply actions
Giants traded Turpen for Ramirez
Dearest, Susan - The Patron Saint of Patience
by Lars The Wanderer on Jul 31, 2010 1:48 PM PDT reply actions
Good-not a bad deal
Proud father of Mike Krukow (who is more than 3 times my age)
Grab Some Pine, Meat
Still cheering for Kevin Frandsen
John Bowker: One of the 3 best OF's on the Giants roster
Aw, man. Bowker and Joey were two of the most likable Giants. But Sanchez is still here, right?
I think I called a Javier Lopez trade a month or two ago …
I’m glad we kept Sanchez
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"Out, out, Fred Lewis!" - JCTillam Gamerspeare
Re: Sanchez
This trade sucks, but realistically, how big of a difference is it going to make? Could have been worse.
Bruce Bochy would like you to look at the career numbers and stop complaining.
Bob Howry's #1 (and only) fan!!!
The Merkin Valdez of McCovey Chronicles!!!!!!
that's pretty much the way I feel about it
I don’t like it, but it’s really not worth freaking out over. I’m glad that Bowker is going to get a shot, personally I’ve never been a believer but at least he will get a shot
by FluLikeSymptoms on Jul 31, 2010 1:56 PM PDT up reply actions
Not only is Sanchez still here, but we also have Bumgarner, Neal and Belt. I guess that’s the way it works with Sabean as GM. You know he’ll do something stupid, but you are relieved when he doesn’t completely destroy the franchise.
Buster Posey: Let's enjoy him before he goes to the Yankees.
by rxmeister on Jul 31, 2010 1:58 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
These are my feelings exactly: Exasperated relief.
"I been waitin' a long time for this! I been waitin' since the f**kin' amateurs!" --WILL "THE THRILL" CLARK
by Josh from Hollywood on Jul 31, 2010 2:59 PM PDT up reply actions
Sabean does what Sabean does better than any GM ever
makes horrible awful stupid trade deadline deals.
Back on the market.
by positiveuphemism on Jul 31, 2010 1:50 PM PDT reply actions
And his bullpen fetish also gets scratched.
"I just struck out looking three times, but in any other ballpark those would have been home runs." - Aubrey Huff
by howtheyscored on Jul 31, 2010 1:53 PM PDT up reply actions
"I been waitin' a long time for this! I been waitin' since the f**kin' amateurs!" --WILL "THE THRILL" CLARK
by Josh from Hollywood on Jul 31, 2010 2:57 PM PDT up reply actions
You guys got it all wrong – the Giants traded Bowker and Martinez for Javy Lopez; there’s no way a GM could be stupid enough to trade those guys for a scrapheap marginal LOOGY like Javier Lopez. Give Sabean more credit than that!
Eliminate that pesky Dominatrix in one easy step. Step 1: Tell her you're a Cubs fan!
hankschulman
Source: No more deals for Giants besides relievers Ramirez and Lopez. Third deal was in the works but not completed.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"Out, out, Fred Lewis!" - JCTillam Gamerspeare
I am so very upset right now
The reason the Giants really did not to trade for a bat was because of Bowker. But now they have gotten rid of him, it now may be necessary to go get a LH power bat.
Sabes digs himself another hole and makes another trade that does not improve the team.
Proud Adoptive Parent of Jesus Guzman, RHP. 2010 Line: 0 H, 2 BB, 0.00 ERA. CALL HIM UP!
Bochy: What’s this fancy stat here?
IT Guy: That’s how often they get on base. I do not know why you keep asking me, I am here to fix your server.
I guess this is why Belt was moved to LF. I’m guessing he’ll be here soon.
Buster Posey: Let's enjoy him before he goes to the Yankees.
Yeah
He will be up in September
Dearest, Susan - The Patron Saint of Patience
by Lars The Wanderer on Jul 31, 2010 1:57 PM PDT up reply actions
if belt gets a call up,, i’m thinking people will forget about bowker fairly quick
IN TIMMY WE TRUST
It’s not about forgetting about Bowker, though. It’s about not giving him away for free.
"I just struck out looking three times, but in any other ballpark those would have been home runs." - Aubrey Huff
by howtheyscored on Jul 31, 2010 1:59 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Do we really think other teams were beating down the door for Bowker
While it can be fairly argued that he hasn’t been given enough of a shot, it can also be fairly argued that, in the shot he has had, he hasn’t looked like much more than a AAAA hitter, and not much of a fielder either.
Proudly adopted Aubrey Huff. You can't beat that!
by Goofus on Jul 31, 2010 3:01 PM PDT up reply actions 2 recs
et tu Goofus?
Sharlon Schoop - de favoriete Nederlandse honkbalspeler van McCovey Chronicles.
You always have to be one step ahead of your drunk friends
--Daisy Owl
If Sabean really thinks this was the best value he could have gotten for Bowker
Then he really has no faith in his own farm system.
Proud Adoptive Parent of Jesus Guzman, RHP. 2010 Line: 0 H, 2 BB, 0.00 ERA. CALL HIM UP!
Bochy: What’s this fancy stat here?
IT Guy: That’s how often they get on base. I do not know why you keep asking me, I am here to fix your server.
Really...you think Sabean just makes this offer in a vaccuum
No one with a LHP in the bullpen wanted Martinez and Bowkers other than the Pirates!
If those were the best returns he could have gotten, he should have stayed put
you should not make a trade for the sake of making a trade.
Negotiate, find another way to make the deal where you are not giving up so much.
Proud Adoptive Parent of Jesus Guzman, RHP. 2010 Line: 0 H, 2 BB, 0.00 ERA. CALL HIM UP!
Bochy: What’s this fancy stat here?
IT Guy: That’s how often they get on base. I do not know why you keep asking me, I am here to fix your server.
by scout6 on Jul 31, 2010 3:06 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
so fucking this
Sharlon Schoop - de favoriete Nederlandse honkbalspeler van McCovey Chronicles.
You always have to be one step ahead of your drunk friends
--Daisy Owl
He hasn't had a shot but in the shot he had?
Circular logic is circular
Dearest, Susan - The Patron Saint of Patience
by Lars The Wanderer on Jul 31, 2010 3:04 PM PDT up reply actions
The trouble is, if this is the best he could have gotten for Bowker, then wouldn’t it have been more worth it to hold onto him for the September call-ups, when we might need an extra bat?
"I could hear the angry MCC cacophany in my head."--Oldjacket, 7/4/10
but we needed to fill our left hand hole!
"Being a McCoven is like being a member of the Green party. It’s powerlessness is part of the appeal." - oldjacket
"Quiet you, I'm starting a meme." - Me
"You can shake a dozen glove men out of a tree, but the bat separates the men from the boys." - Washington Senators First baseman Dale Long
Proud papa to: Bill Schlough, Senior Vice President and Chief Information Officer, aka the IT guy.
Well, Sabean didn’t have to trade Bowker at all. If other teams didn’t want him as anything more than a cherry topper on a trade for a bad pitcher, we should have just kept him.
"I just struck out looking three times, but in any other ballpark those would have been home runs." - Aubrey Huff
by howtheyscored on Jul 31, 2010 3:19 PM PDT up reply actions
Totally agree. Other teams knew the Giants were desperate for a Left handed reliever and so I am sure they demanded more than most of us would have liked to give up.
by APGiantsFan on Jul 31, 2010 10:35 PM PDT up reply actions
That’s the thing, though. We shouldn’t have been desperate for a left-handed reliever. We should have regarded it as a nice addition if it happened, but have been happy to go with our own system if it didn’t. There was absolutely no desperate hole that needed filling. The bullpen is not some magic place in the roster where you need to address holes in desperate ways. It is a place that is largely and league-wide filled acceptably with bad pitchers.
"I just struck out looking three times, but in any other ballpark those would have been home runs." - Aubrey Huff
by howtheyscored on Jul 31, 2010 11:30 PM PDT up reply actions
I don't know whether they're right or not
But it’s obvious they thought they needed a lefty. Lopez has been pretty good against LHH.
Proudly adopted Aubrey Huff. You can't beat that!
Here are his v. LH batter splits from Fangraphs (sorry for the bad formatting)
Season Split K/9 BB/9 K/BB HR/9 AVG WHIP BABIP FIP xFIP
2003 vs L 9.00 0.90 10.00 0.60 .255 1.07 .331 - – - 2.20 2.06
2004 vs L 3.63 5.64 0.64 0.00 .213 1.39 .240 - – - 4.39 5.19
2005 vs L 7.27 5.19 1.40 1.04 .290 1.73 .340 - – - 4.64 4.08
2006 vs L 6.30 5.40 1.17 0.00 .221 1.40 .274 - – - 3.85 3.85
2007 vs L 8.10 3.60 2.25 0.45 .299 1.60 .375 - – - 3.59 4.24
2008 vs L 7.31 5.34 1.37 0.56 .181 1.22 .219 - – - 4.19 4.36
2009 vs L 5.79 7.71 0.75 0.00 .406 2.79 .470 - – - 5.03 5.90
2010 vs L 9.39 5.28 1.78 1.17 .203 1.30 .248 - – - 4.68 3.78
Total vs L 7.30 4.28 1.71 0.50 .241 1.37 .295 - – - 3.80 3.93
He’s been good over his career but not much the past three seasons.
Aaron King is still my homeboy... iffy mechanics and all
McFAQ for all you newcomers out there.
I wouldn't even say he's been good over his career
Since those numbers are as a reliever, the bar is set higher.
Juan "Doesn't Cheat The Game" Perez, please keep hitting.
Maybe they needed a lefty, but I still contend there was no desperate need to trade for one. What is our farm system for if not to plug in guys for 15 fluky innings?
"I just struck out looking three times, but in any other ballpark those would have been home runs." - Aubrey Huff
by howtheyscored on Aug 1, 2010 11:08 AM PDT up reply actions
You're calling it 15 fluky innings I'm saying it may be a handful of crucial ABs
Proudly adopted Aubrey Huff. You can't beat that!
Exactly
Except you left out the throwing things laced with profanity laden rants that immediately followed.
Giants best trade option: Bowker for Rowand
by Giant Torture on Aug 1, 2010 5:16 AM PDT up reply actions
Yeah, that's an intelligent response
You really make a good argument. This proves beyond a reasonable doubt in my mind that Bowker is more than AAAA outfielder and the gold gloves are already being etched with his name.
Proudly adopted Aubrey Huff. You can't beat that!
Dude
You argued that 2 sets of 80 sporadic ABs meant anything. What did you expect?
Juan "Doesn't Cheat The Game" Perez, please keep hitting.
That's not what I argued
I think the team has looked at more than just those 80 ABs. Don’t you think management and coaches have more info that that?
As I’ve said before, when I coached little league, I based lineups not on just kids had done in games. I considered every practice and batting practice as well.
Hypothetical: If you were a coach and you threw a hitter hundreds of curves in BP and he never hit them, even if you told him they were coming, couldn’t something like that help you with your decision on a guy.
I suspect, but have no way of knowing, that Bowker’s AAA numbers consisted of him feasting on “meh” pitchers and having trouble with the guys that were on their way up. Maybe there’s stats on that sort of thing and the team looked at it.
Proudly adopted Aubrey Huff. You can't beat that!
But you're whole argument, essentially, is that the Giants MUST know what they are doing
I think that we have seen enough to say that they don’t really know what they are doing with regards to hitting.
The baseball Satanist
I promise that my adopted Giant, one Zach Wheeler, will not shoot anybody.
"I told the family lovingly slide"
Bowker + Martinez for Dotel
I would have been ok with that instead
by Section B, Row 1 on Jul 31, 2010 10:15 PM PDT up reply actions
I would really like to let Belt develop though
If he gets rushed to majors, goes 4-35, there is a large chance we never see him again.
Proud Adoptive Parent of Jesus Guzman, RHP. 2010 Line: 0 H, 2 BB, 0.00 ERA. CALL HIM UP!
Bochy: What’s this fancy stat here?
IT Guy: That’s how often they get on base. I do not know why you keep asking me, I am here to fix your server.
He’s getting hyped by the organization. Typically, when there’s hype, the player gets legitimate opportunity.
Bruce Bochy would like you to look at the career numbers and stop complaining.
Bob Howry's #1 (and only) fan!!!
The Merkin Valdez of McCovey Chronicles!!!!!!
Fred Lewis was hyped as the successor to Bonds
so it depends on the Hype he gets.
Proud Adoptive Parent of Jesus Guzman, RHP. 2010 Line: 0 H, 2 BB, 0.00 ERA. CALL HIM UP!
Bochy: What’s this fancy stat here?
IT Guy: That’s how often they get on base. I do not know why you keep asking me, I am here to fix your server.
Technically, Fred Lewis was the successor to Bonds.
"I just struck out looking three times, but in any other ballpark those would have been home runs." - Aubrey Huff
by howtheyscored on Jul 31, 2010 4:46 PM PDT up reply actions
Well, yeah,
But i was referring to the whole “WE ARE MOVING HIM TO THE 3 SPOT, HE HAS WILL START HITTING ALL THESE DINGERS!”
Proud Adoptive Parent of Jesus Guzman, RHP. 2010 Line: 0 H, 2 BB, 0.00 ERA. CALL HIM UP!
Bochy: What’s this fancy stat here?
IT Guy: That’s how often they get on base. I do not know why you keep asking me, I am here to fix your server.
Oh, I know. I was just being a jerk.
"I just struck out looking three times, but in any other ballpark those would have been home runs." - Aubrey Huff
by howtheyscored on Jul 31, 2010 4:59 PM PDT up reply actions
/fry glare
Proud Adoptive Parent of Jesus Guzman, RHP. 2010 Line: 0 H, 2 BB, 0.00 ERA. CALL HIM UP!
Bochy: What’s this fancy stat here?
IT Guy: That’s how often they get on base. I do not know why you keep asking me, I am here to fix your server.
we will see who is right on Bowker now
im glad for him. He gets a chance. I knew Bowker was going to be part of any trade. The Giants don’t beleive in him.
What I REALLY don’t understand is trading two guys that have ML experience and one with some potential for a middling middle reliever.
All in all a REALLY shitty day. Dodgers get better with Lilly and Theriot. Giants dont.
There HAS to be more to this PIT deal...
Fo realz. A serviceable long man/marginal SP AND a AAAA slugger for a short reliever? So much for so little? This has to be an unannounced three-team deal.
Fathaigh go mbuaimid!
I AM PAT BURRELLZ'Z DADDY! (wait, that doesn't sound right)
by bigboneded on Jul 31, 2010 1:55 PM PDT via mobile reply actions
Bowker was a bad soldier.
Came home from Venzuela because he feared for his life.
Q: Did you ever make an offer for Vladimir Guerrero?
Sabean: In a word: No. If we had signed Guerrero or [Gary] Sheffield, we would have been without [Long list of replacement level vets]—obviously not being able to field a competitive team, especially from an experience standpoint, given our level of spending.
How dare he.
Sharlon Schoop - de favoriete Nederlandse honkbalspeler van McCovey Chronicles.
You always have to be one step ahead of your drunk friends
--Daisy Owl
I have defended Sabean lately, mostly because the team has been playing so well that I’ve been in a good mood, but he blew all the good feelings with me by making this trade. Runzler is almost back already, and Affeldt soon will be. I’ve seen shit prospects traded all day for good players, and we give Bowker away. Just pathetic.
Buster Posey: Let's enjoy him before he goes to the Yankees.
Affeldt won’t be back soon. I think his oblique is actually torn.
"I just struck out looking three times, but in any other ballpark those would have been home runs." - Aubrey Huff
by howtheyscored on Jul 31, 2010 1:56 PM PDT up reply actions
I though affeldt was gone for the season?
Proud Adoptive Parent of Jesus Guzman, RHP. 2010 Line: 0 H, 2 BB, 0.00 ERA. CALL HIM UP!
Bochy: What’s this fancy stat here?
IT Guy: That’s how often they get on base. I do not know why you keep asking me, I am here to fix your server.
FFFFFFFFFFFFFFF
"IT'S POSEY, YOU IDIOT." - Jon Miller
Clayton Tanner, the Flying Squirrel!
by walkoff baltimore chop on Jul 31, 2010 1:56 PM PDT reply actions
lets be real...
joe martinez wasn’t any good, and John Bowker is a AAA all-star, but that’s about it. John Bowker’s swing and approach to the plate is too one dimensional to make it in the big leagues. I don’t know much about Lopez. But we traded away two guys who will never have an impact on a major league team for a guy who has pitched well this year. I take that every time.
This is gonna sound really douche like, but its because I am pissed
but do you understand the game of baseball at all?
Proud Adoptive Parent of Jesus Guzman, RHP. 2010 Line: 0 H, 2 BB, 0.00 ERA. CALL HIM UP!
Bochy: What’s this fancy stat here?
IT Guy: That’s how often they get on base. I do not know why you keep asking me, I am here to fix your server.
bowker will never make it
and joe martinez is not what the Giants need.
NEITHER IS FUCKING JAVIER LOPEZ
Sharlon Schoop - de favoriete Nederlandse honkbalspeler van McCovey Chronicles.
You always have to be one step ahead of your drunk friends
--Daisy Owl
More so then Javy Lopes
Martinez was our ONLY long relief option. He makes a useful spot starter. And you have NO WAY of knowing if Bowker will make it or not.
I swear it’s thoughts like this that allow Sabean to think these moves are alright, and it results in another missed playoff appearance with the best pitching this team has had.
Proud Adoptive Parent of Jesus Guzman, RHP. 2010 Line: 0 H, 2 BB, 0.00 ERA. CALL HIM UP!
Bochy: What’s this fancy stat here?
IT Guy: That’s how often they get on base. I do not know why you keep asking me, I am here to fix your server.
Wellemeyer
Martinez was our ONLY long relief option
I’ve been hearing Wellemeyer is close to returning
Proudly adopted Aubrey Huff. You can't beat that!
PTL!
"Being a McCoven is like being a member of the Green party. It’s powerlessness is part of the appeal." - oldjacket
"Quiet you, I'm starting a meme." - Me
"You can shake a dozen glove men out of a tree, but the bat separates the men from the boys." - Washington Senators First baseman Dale Long
Proud papa to: Bill Schlough, Senior Vice President and Chief Information Officer, aka the IT guy.
ugh
Dearest, Susan - The Patron Saint of Patience
by Lars The Wanderer on Jul 31, 2010 3:05 PM PDT up reply actions
You want Wellemeyer over Martinez?
I would rather have traded him.
Proud Adoptive Parent of Jesus Guzman, RHP. 2010 Line: 0 H, 2 BB, 0.00 ERA. CALL HIM UP!
Bochy: What’s this fancy stat here?
IT Guy: That’s how often they get on base. I do not know why you keep asking me, I am here to fix your server.
That’s not the point. It doesn’t really matter how good the long reliever is, since they’d likely only be used if the game is a lost cause anyway.
Bruce Bochy would like you to look at the career numbers and stop complaining.
Bob Howry's #1 (and only) fan!!!
The Merkin Valdez of McCovey Chronicles!!!!!!
well
then, I’m available right now.
"Being a McCoven is like being a member of the Green party. It’s powerlessness is part of the appeal." - oldjacket
"Quiet you, I'm starting a meme." - Me
"You can shake a dozen glove men out of a tree, but the bat separates the men from the boys." - Washington Senators First baseman Dale Long
Proud papa to: Bill Schlough, Senior Vice President and Chief Information Officer, aka the IT guy.
No, this is just an argument that we probably shouldn’t worry about having a long reliever.
Bruce Bochy would like you to look at the career numbers and stop complaining.
Bob Howry's #1 (and only) fan!!!
The Merkin Valdez of McCovey Chronicles!!!!!!
There was a stretch of games earlier this season
where our starters 1-5 did not last longer than the 5th inning. It’s a legitimate worry.
Proud Adoptive Parent of Jesus Guzman, RHP. 2010 Line: 0 H, 2 BB, 0.00 ERA. CALL HIM UP!
Bochy: What’s this fancy stat here?
IT Guy: That’s how often they get on base. I do not know why you keep asking me, I am here to fix your server.
that's what the minor league shuffle is for
Sharlon Schoop - de favoriete Nederlandse honkbalspeler van McCovey Chronicles.
You always have to be one step ahead of your drunk friends
--Daisy Owl
This
To me, the main reason for having a long-reliever is so you don’t wear out your bullpen on a game that’s a lost cause.
Proudly adopted Aubrey Huff. You can't beat that!
you use 3 of your most marginal relievers
then call a guy up from AAA for a couple days.
Sharlon Schoop - de favoriete Nederlandse honkbalspeler van McCovey Chronicles.
You always have to be one step ahead of your drunk friends
--Daisy Owl
Let me rephrase then
I trust Martinez to keep it a 5 run deficit more then I trust Wellemeyer to.
Proud Adoptive Parent of Jesus Guzman, RHP. 2010 Line: 0 H, 2 BB, 0.00 ERA. CALL HIM UP!
Bochy: What’s this fancy stat here?
IT Guy: That’s how often they get on base. I do not know why you keep asking me, I am here to fix your server.
Are they that different?
Bruce Bochy would like you to look at the career numbers and stop complaining.
Bob Howry's #1 (and only) fan!!!
The Merkin Valdez of McCovey Chronicles!!!!!!
Without searchin
Wellemeyer is much more liable to give up the longball then Joey is.
as for xFIP I would need to actually go look.
Proud Adoptive Parent of Jesus Guzman, RHP. 2010 Line: 0 H, 2 BB, 0.00 ERA. CALL HIM UP!
Bochy: What’s this fancy stat here?
IT Guy: That’s how often they get on base. I do not know why you keep asking me, I am here to fix your server.
good way to lose ballgames
yes, the long reliever is not the first problem to consider on a ballclub. but a good long reliever can hold a game long enough for an offense (which the giants now have) to put up a few runs and make it a ballgame again. there’s really no room for bad pitchers on a good team, whether they’re named bautista or martinez or welolmyer.
Joe Martinez was a perfectly serviceable pitcher, and I think we would have seen it had he thrown more than 11 innings this year.
"I just struck out looking three times, but in any other ballpark those would have been home runs." - Aubrey Huff
by howtheyscored on Jul 31, 2010 1:58 PM PDT up reply actions
For the record, I think Joe Martinez is terrible. However, as bad as he is, he should have been enough for Javier Lopez.
Buster Posey: Let's enjoy him before he goes to the Yankees.
I definitely agree with the second part of that.
"I just struck out looking three times, but in any other ballpark those would have been home runs." - Aubrey Huff
by howtheyscored on Jul 31, 2010 2:00 PM PDT up reply actions
Javier Lopez isn’t very good either.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"Out, out, Fred Lewis!" - JCTillam Gamerspeare
And he hasn’t really even pitched well this year. He has a shiny ERA, though.
"I just struck out looking three times, but in any other ballpark those would have been home runs." - Aubrey Huff
by howtheyscored on Jul 31, 2010 1:58 PM PDT up reply actions
55% gb rate
meh. feh. bleh. fuck you sabes.
Sharlon Schoop - de favoriete Nederlandse honkbalspeler van McCovey Chronicles.
You always have to be one step ahead of your drunk friends
--Daisy Owl
What do we even do with this guy when Affeldt and Runzler are back?
Assuming it’s before the rosters expand, release him is the obvious answer.
VAE PVTO DEVS FIO
I wouldn't worry about Affeldt returning
I would be surprised if he pitched again this year.
Dearest, Susan - The Patron Saint of Patience
by Lars The Wanderer on Jul 31, 2010 3:16 PM PDT up reply actions
John Bowker’s swing and approach to the plate is too one dimensional to make it in the big leagues.
and you know this from <100 PAs this year? Really? Sorry, but that’s really fucking stupid.
Sharlon Schoop - de favoriete Nederlandse honkbalspeler van McCovey Chronicles.
You always have to be one step ahead of your drunk friends
--Daisy Owl
have you watched Bowker over the past 3 years??
that’s how you know. The Giants organization have had years of scouting Bowker. They know what they do or don’t have. Better than you.
did you miss the whole thing
about his whole approach changing last year?
Sharlon Schoop - de favoriete Nederlandse honkbalspeler van McCovey Chronicles.
You always have to be one step ahead of your drunk friends
--Daisy Owl
you obviously think bowker will be good...
I do not. that’s the difference here. Difference in opinion. I personally believe an approach is hard to change, you either develop it when your younger or you don’t. It’s hard to change once you make it to the big leagues. Just my opinion.
it doesn't matter if you think he will be good or not
his performance in AAA the last 2 years have earned him MORE THAN 100 FUCKING PAs AT THE MAJOR LEAGUE LEVEL TO DEMONSTRATE IT.
Sharlon Schoop - de favoriete Nederlandse honkbalspeler van McCovey Chronicles.
You always have to be one step ahead of your drunk friends
--Daisy Owl
no it hasn't...
every time he comes up to the big leagues he can’t cut it. He just isn’t a big league hitter. He’s going to be a career AAA all star, period. maybe later in his career a fill in DH for some team
lol
Dearest, Susan - The Patron Saint of Patience
by Lars The Wanderer on Jul 31, 2010 2:06 PM PDT up reply actions
I think we should do a Bowker watch the same way we did a Fred watch before he turned on us.
"I just struck out looking three times, but in any other ballpark those would have been home runs." - Aubrey Huff
by howtheyscored on Jul 31, 2010 2:08 PM PDT up reply actions
I think someone was going to anyway.
Proud Adoptive Parent of Jesus Guzman, RHP. 2010 Line: 0 H, 2 BB, 0.00 ERA. CALL HIM UP!
Bochy: What’s this fancy stat here?
IT Guy: That’s how often they get on base. I do not know why you keep asking me, I am here to fix your server.
FRANDSEN WATCH is currently at .288/.336/.367 in 139 ABs.
That’s actually a lot better than Freddy Sanchez, though in significantly fewer ABs.
"I just struck out looking three times, but in any other ballpark those would have been home runs." - Aubrey Huff
by howtheyscored on Jul 31, 2010 2:11 PM PDT up reply actions
Once again I must mention that Frandsen has been sent back to the minors by the Angels.
Buster Posey: Let's enjoy him before he goes to the Yankees.
by rxmeister on Jul 31, 2010 2:24 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions
Yeah, certainly. It’s just funny to look at that.
"I just struck out looking three times, but in any other ballpark those would have been home runs." - Aubrey Huff
by howtheyscored on Jul 31, 2010 2:27 PM PDT up reply actions
Give that a rest
Frandsen will never be more than a utility guy.
To clarify again, cause people do not seem to get it
It is not that we think these guys will be the next Will Clark, Mays, etc.
It’s the constant frustration of giving ML ready and useful players away for NOTHING.
Proud Adoptive Parent of Jesus Guzman, RHP. 2010 Line: 0 H, 2 BB, 0.00 ERA. CALL HIM UP!
Bochy: What’s this fancy stat here?
IT Guy: That’s how often they get on base. I do not know why you keep asking me, I am here to fix your server.
DING DING DING
If someone offered me 75k for something that was worth, literally, millions, I’d kick them in the nuts for being an asshole. Some people prefer to bend over and take it twice.
Juan "Doesn't Cheat The Game" Perez, please keep hitting.
I was just having a little fun. I don’t think I’ve so much as thought of Frandsen in the last two months.
"I just struck out looking three times, but in any other ballpark those would have been home runs." - Aubrey Huff
by howtheyscored on Jul 31, 2010 4:47 PM PDT up reply actions
. I personally believe an approach is hard to change
Look at that chart Grant posted and look at his 08 and 09 OBP.
It jumped from .304 to .451…if that doesn’t signal a change in approach I don’t know what does
Proud father of Mike Krukow (who is more than 3 times my age)
Grab Some Pine, Meat
Still cheering for Kevin Frandsen
John Bowker: One of the 3 best OF's on the Giants roster
not only that
but he’s kept it up this year too.
Sharlon Schoop - de favoriete Nederlandse honkbalspeler van McCovey Chronicles.
You always have to be one step ahead of your drunk friends
--Daisy Owl
yeah, but that's in the minor leagues
I’m talking vs. major league pitchers.
Bowker has not gotten a significant extended chance in the majors since altering his approach.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"Out, out, Fred Lewis!" - JCTillam Gamerspeare
what are you talking about...
he can’t even cut it in spring training. He’s had two to earn a spot but hasn’t proven it.
Spring Training is stupid.
"I just struck out looking three times, but in any other ballpark those would have been home runs." - Aubrey Huff
by howtheyscored on Jul 31, 2010 2:14 PM PDT up reply actions
Um, Bowker hit .304/.387/.627 in spring training this year
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"Out, out, Fred Lewis!" - JCTillam Gamerspeare
pffff jp
don’t come around here with your “facts” and “reason”
Sharlon Schoop - de favoriete Nederlandse honkbalspeler van McCovey Chronicles.
You always have to be one step ahead of your drunk friends
--Daisy Owl
What do you think the minor leagues are for exactly?
Proud Adoptive Parent of Jesus Guzman, RHP. 2010 Line: 0 H, 2 BB, 0.00 ERA. CALL HIM UP!
Bochy: What’s this fancy stat here?
IT Guy: That’s how often they get on base. I do not know why you keep asking me, I am here to fix your server.
Value
Bowker has more value than a loogy that isn’t very good. Thats why Sabes sucks.
THIS
SO MUCH FUCKING THIS.
If we’d gotten a reliever who was actually, you know, good, I wouldn’t really be that upset over this, especially if he had him for a while.
Sharlon Schoop - de favoriete Nederlandse honkbalspeler van McCovey Chronicles.
You always have to be one step ahead of your drunk friends
--Daisy Owl
4 names from non-contenders
who wouldn’t have me pulling my hair out right now:
Sean Marshall
John Axford
Wilton Lopez
Joel Hanrahan
Sharlon Schoop - de favoriete Nederlandse honkbalspeler van McCovey Chronicles.
You always have to be one step ahead of your drunk friends
--Daisy Owl
THose teams wouldn't do that....
because bowker and martinez aren’t that good is the problem with that.
I really don't think
you understand how (not) valuable relief pitchers are.
Sharlon Schoop - de favoriete Nederlandse honkbalspeler van McCovey Chronicles.
You always have to be one step ahead of your drunk friends
--Daisy Owl
no, lopez isn't good.
He’s average. But bowker and martinez are far below average. Sabean could have and should have gotten a prospect with him, but we gotta live with what we got. He’s good against lefties and he’s proven he can pitch this season.
a 4.5 xFIP
is below average for a reliever.
Bautista has a 4.5 xFIP, for example, would you give up Joey and Bowker for 20 innings of Bautista?
Sharlon Schoop - de favoriete Nederlandse honkbalspeler van McCovey Chronicles.
You always have to be one step ahead of your drunk friends
--Daisy Owl
And how did you determine that Bowker and Martinez suck? Their five seconds of playing time this year?
"I AIN'T HAVIN IT." - Buster Posey
they had their chance
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"Out, out, Fred Lewis!" - JCTillam Gamerspeare
Martinez
wasn’t that good in the minors this year. If this deal was just Joey for Lopez, I wouldn’t be happy, but I wouldn’t be furious either
Sharlon Schoop - de favoriete Nederlandse honkbalspeler van McCovey Chronicles.
You always have to be one step ahead of your drunk friends
--Daisy Owl
meh. feh. bleh.
but no FUCK YOU SABEZ
Sharlon Schoop - de favoriete Nederlandse honkbalspeler van McCovey Chronicles.
You always have to be one step ahead of your drunk friends
--Daisy Owl
He had a 4.52 MLE FIP in AAA this year… not great, but for a 4th/5th starter, that’s not bad.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"Out, out, Fred Lewis!" - JCTillam Gamerspeare
Not to mention he was the big clubs only long relief option.
Proud Adoptive Parent of Jesus Guzman, RHP. 2010 Line: 0 H, 2 BB, 0.00 ERA. CALL HIM UP!
Bochy: What’s this fancy stat here?
IT Guy: That’s how often they get on base. I do not know why you keep asking me, I am here to fix your server.
You don't walk your way off the Giants
Proud father of Mike Krukow (who is more than 3 times my age)
Grab Some Pine, Meat
Still cheering for Kevin Frandsen
John Bowker: One of the 3 best OF's on the Giants roster
You mean like a Joey Martinez?
Proud Adoptive Parent of Jesus Guzman, RHP. 2010 Line: 0 H, 2 BB, 0.00 ERA. CALL HIM UP!
Bochy: What’s this fancy stat here?
IT Guy: That’s how often they get on base. I do not know why you keep asking me, I am here to fix your server.
You don’t think we could have just picked up someone or promoted someone to be a LOOGY?
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"Out, out, Fred Lewis!" - JCTillam Gamerspeare
Espenelli =(
Sharlon Schoop - de favoriete Nederlandse honkbalspeler van McCovey Chronicles.
You always have to be one step ahead of your drunk friends
--Daisy Owl
a long reliever
is the 24th-25th roster spot I’m worried about. The Eugenio Velez of pitchers, if you will
Sharlon Schoop - de favoriete Nederlandse honkbalspeler van McCovey Chronicles.
You always have to be one step ahead of your drunk friends
--Daisy Owl
LOOGY is 23rd?
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"Out, out, Fred Lewis!" - JCTillam Gamerspeare
pretty much
LHRP would be farther up, but if he’s a LOOGY only, 23rd is about right.
Which is why i wouldn’t really be upset if it was just martinez for lopez
Sharlon Schoop - de favoriete Nederlandse honkbalspeler van McCovey Chronicles.
You always have to be one step ahead of your drunk friends
--Daisy Owl
that's not reasonable value
it’s just not
"Being a McCoven is like being a member of the Green party. It’s powerlessness is part of the appeal." - oldjacket
"Quiet you, I'm starting a meme." - Me
"You can shake a dozen glove men out of a tree, but the bat separates the men from the boys." - Washington Senators First baseman Dale Long
Proud papa to: Bill Schlough, Senior Vice President and Chief Information Officer, aka the IT guy.
not even close
Sharlon Schoop - de favoriete Nederlandse honkbalspeler van McCovey Chronicles.
You always have to be one step ahead of your drunk friends
--Daisy Owl
and your evidence for this is?
Sharlon Schoop - de favoriete Nederlandse honkbalspeler van McCovey Chronicles.
You always have to be one step ahead of your drunk friends
--Daisy Owl
bowker hit 207 this year
travis at 299.
QEDMF
"Being a McCoven is like being a member of the Green party. It’s powerlessness is part of the appeal." - oldjacket
"Quiet you, I'm starting a meme." - Me
"You can shake a dozen glove men out of a tree, but the bat separates the men from the boys." - Washington Senators First baseman Dale Long
Proud papa to: Bill Schlough, Senior Vice President and Chief Information Officer, aka the IT guy.
<100 PA?
no, no they’re not.
Sharlon Schoop - de favoriete Nederlandse honkbalspeler van McCovey Chronicles.
You always have to be one step ahead of your drunk friends
--Daisy Owl
go take even the most basic statistics class
you aren’t qualified to use numbers
"Being a McCoven is like being a member of the Green party. It’s powerlessness is part of the appeal." - oldjacket
"Quiet you, I'm starting a meme." - Me
"You can shake a dozen glove men out of a tree, but the bat separates the men from the boys." - Washington Senators First baseman Dale Long
Proud papa to: Bill Schlough, Senior Vice President and Chief Information Officer, aka the IT guy.
Stats prof. in my MBA program
said you only need about 50 data points.
:)
But clearly 50 AB not enough.
Q: Did you ever make an offer for Vladimir Guerrero?
Sabean: In a word: No. If we had signed Guerrero or [Gary] Sheffield, we would have been without [Long list of replacement level vets]—obviously not being able to field a competitive team, especially from an experience standpoint, given our level of spending.
depends on what you're trying to measure
Sharlon Schoop - de favoriete Nederlandse honkbalspeler van McCovey Chronicles.
You always have to be one step ahead of your drunk friends
--Daisy Owl
I think they believe a LHRP/LOOGY is pretty fuckin' important
Especially against Adrian Gonzalez and the Dodger’s lefties
Proudly adopted Aubrey Huff. You can't beat that!
then bring up Espinelli
who isn’t likely to be worse than Lopez, and could very well be better.
Sharlon Schoop - de favoriete Nederlandse honkbalspeler van McCovey Chronicles.
You always have to be one step ahead of your drunk friends
--Daisy Owl
whoa whoa whoa
Lopez isn’t good, but that’s not likely.
Mark DeRosa is playing exactly the same amount of professional baseball as his adopted father, these days.
really?
Espinelli MLE FIP – 4.47
Javier Lopez FIP – 4.20
Javier Lopez ZiPS ROS FIP – 4.6
Sharlon Schoop - de favoriete Nederlandse honkbalspeler van McCovey Chronicles.
You always have to be one step ahead of your drunk friends
--Daisy Owl
Your boy just walked a relief pitcher
Dearest, Susan - The Patron Saint of Patience
by Lars The Wanderer on Jul 31, 2010 3:20 PM PDT up reply actions
And followed it up by walking the next guy too
Dearest, Susan - The Patron Saint of Patience
by Lars The Wanderer on Jul 31, 2010 3:24 PM PDT up reply actions
well i never said he had good control...
Sharlon Schoop - de favoriete Nederlandse honkbalspeler van McCovey Chronicles.
You always have to be one step ahead of your drunk friends
--Daisy Owl
And now some other guy has to clean up his mess
Dearest, Susan - The Patron Saint of Patience
by Lars The Wanderer on Jul 31, 2010 3:26 PM PDT up reply actions
Espinelli is exactly the kind of pitcher that MLEs were not made for. He throws sloppy junk, and gets killed by anyone with a modicum of pitch recognition.
Mark DeRosa is playing exactly the same amount of professional baseball as his adopted father, these days.
do you have some sort of evidence for this?
Sharlon Schoop - de favoriete Nederlandse honkbalspeler van McCovey Chronicles.
You always have to be one step ahead of your drunk friends
--Daisy Owl
And his SIXTEEN ip in the majors doesn’t count.
Sharlon Schoop - de favoriete Nederlandse honkbalspeler van McCovey Chronicles.
You always have to be one step ahead of your drunk friends
--Daisy Owl
just personal observation. He throws about 82 mph. He’s got a big slow curve that works pretty well in the minors, but I just don’t think it would work in the majors.
Mark DeRosa is playing exactly the same amount of professional baseball as his adopted father, these days.
Sabean/Bochy
LEFTIES CAN"T HIT LEFTIES
Proud father of 2-time Cy Young Award winner Tim Lincecum
"Failure is not fatal, but failure to change might be." - John Wooden
Exactly
When it was reported that it was just Joey for Lopez I thought “well this is a slight overpayment but not a huge deal” with Bowker the deal is WTF
Proud father of Mike Krukow (who is more than 3 times my age)
Grab Some Pine, Meat
Still cheering for Kevin Frandsen
John Bowker: One of the 3 best OF's on the Giants roster
Same reaction
Read my Cal blog: http://since59.blogspot.com/ Go Bears!
Ryan Verdugo, my adopted son, is currently boasting a 10.8 K/9 for the San Jose Giants. CALL HIM UP!
Just one more thing
If you say Lopez isn’t good, THEN WHY THE FUCK DID THE GIANTS TRADE FOR HIM?
"I AIN'T HAVIN IT." - Buster Posey
EXACTLY.
Quietly hoping Brandon Belt develops into John Olerud, circa 1993.
by AndOnTheDrums... on Jul 31, 2010 11:59 PM PDT up reply actions
I'll agree there...
He could have got more for bowker and martinez. But Bowker is still not that good
I'm just saying right now....
I’ll take lopez for the next few years, over bowker and martinez for the next few years.
well, that's really stupid.
Lopez is not even likely to be better than Joey.
Sharlon Schoop - de favoriete Nederlandse honkbalspeler van McCovey Chronicles.
You always have to be one step ahead of your drunk friends
--Daisy Owl
but affeldt is hurt for who knows how long
and who knows how runzler comes back for us. We needed a lefty
THAT’S THE THING THOUGH. WE TOTALLY DIDN’T.
"I just struck out looking three times, but in any other ballpark those would have been home runs." - Aubrey Huff
by howtheyscored on Jul 31, 2010 2:18 PM PDT up reply actions
so get one from the minor leagues
it’s really not that complicated.
Sharlon Schoop - de favoriete Nederlandse honkbalspeler van McCovey Chronicles.
You always have to be one step ahead of your drunk friends
--Daisy Owl
javier lopez
really hasn’t pitched badly this year. His career numbers aren’t impressive. But he really hasn’t been bad if you’ve watched him pitch
I’m sure you’ve conveniently watched a lot of Pirates games this year, huh.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"Out, out, Fred Lewis!" - JCTillam Gamerspeare
they can win games
but playoff games and championships?? not so much. Lets think big here
How is this a response to my comment
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"Out, out, Fred Lewis!" - JCTillam Gamerspeare
This is some hilarious stuff, here
Javier Lopez is the difference between winning games and winning playoff games and championships.
The baseball Satanist
I promise that my adopted Giant, one Zach Wheeler, will not shoot anybody.
"I told the family lovingly slide"
We can never have enough guys that do not throw strikes. Awesome.
Dearest, Susan - The Patron Saint of Patience
by Lars The Wanderer on Jul 31, 2010 2:19 PM PDT up reply actions
He hasn’t been very good this year. He has a shiny ERA, though.
"I just struck out looking three times, but in any other ballpark those would have been home runs." - Aubrey Huff
by howtheyscored on Jul 31, 2010 2:20 PM PDT up reply actions
he hasn't pitched that well either
about as well as Bautista.
Sharlon Schoop - de favoriete Nederlandse honkbalspeler van McCovey Chronicles.
You always have to be one step ahead of your drunk friends
--Daisy Owl
Espenielli
would probably be just as good, and would be free.
Sharlon Schoop - de favoriete Nederlandse honkbalspeler van McCovey Chronicles.
You always have to be one step ahead of your drunk friends
--Daisy Owl
Marketing potential too.
Proud Adoptive Parent of Jesus Guzman, RHP. 2010 Line: 0 H, 2 BB, 0.00 ERA. CALL HIM UP!
Bochy: What’s this fancy stat here?
IT Guy: That’s how often they get on base. I do not know why you keep asking me, I am here to fix your server.
HERITAGE NIGHT!
where’s Lars?
Sharlon Schoop - de favoriete Nederlandse honkbalspeler van McCovey Chronicles.
You always have to be one step ahead of your drunk friends
--Daisy Owl
BECAUSE THE GIANTS CAN’T WIN ANY GAMES WITH NO LEFTY IN THE PEN, RIGHT?
"I AIN'T HAVIN IT." - Buster Posey
Correct. This is why Sabean was prepared to throw in Posey and Sanchez as well.
Fortunately, due to Brian’s shrewd negotiating prowess, he managed to wrangle a FANTASTIC, SPECTACULARLY WONDERFUL left handed specialist for a mere pittance.
Sabean is so fucking amazing!
"You can always recover from the player you didn't sign. You may never recover from the player you signed at the wrong price." --Billy Beane
"I am not an idiot."--Brian Sabean
by Sabean's_Folly on Jul 31, 2010 9:07 PM PDT up reply actions
Haters gonna hate and stupid is as stupid does
I personally believe an approach is hard to change, you either develop it when your younger or you don’t. It’s hard to change once you make it to the big leagues.
Do you work for Brian Sabean? Brother-in-law? That’s just ridiculous and as an example take Barry Fucking Bonds, 102 strikeouts his rookie season good for a K% of 24.7%. If you had been running the pirates then you would have traded him for someone not quite as good as Craig Lefferts, because he never would have changed his approach and had a season with only 41 k’s and 232 fucking walks, except he did.
I thought I would be less pissed about this today than I was yesterday, but I’m not. Apologies in advance, because I’m sure it’s over the top, but can’t help myself.
Giants best trade option: Bowker for Rowand
by Giant Torture on Aug 1, 2010 5:27 AM PDT up reply actions
Yeah the Giants have always been good at identifying good hitters
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"Out, out, Fred Lewis!" - JCTillam Gamerspeare
lol
Sharlon Schoop - de favoriete Nederlandse honkbalspeler van McCovey Chronicles.
You always have to be one step ahead of your drunk friends
--Daisy Owl
javier lopez
career k/9 ~5. career BB/9 ~4. not an exceptional amount of GBs. This was a desperation move. I’d rather have just called up Espenelli.
Sharlon Schoop - de favoriete Nederlandse honkbalspeler van McCovey Chronicles.
You always have to be one step ahead of your drunk friends
--Daisy Owl
Developing it, sure.
Trading for it?
"I just struck out looking three times, but in any other ballpark those would have been home runs." - Aubrey Huff
by howtheyscored on Jul 31, 2010 2:05 PM PDT up reply actions
Both wonderful additions to the club!
"You can always recover from the player you didn't sign. You may never recover from the player you signed at the wrong price." --Billy Beane
"I am not an idiot."--Brian Sabean
by Sabean's_Folly on Jul 31, 2010 9:09 PM PDT up reply actions
Let's not forget the FA's too
Zito
Walkameyer
Matt Morris (Fits both categories)
Giants best trade option: Bowker for Rowand
by Giant Torture on Aug 1, 2010 5:30 AM PDT up reply actions
He changed his approach last year, from the ground up
Was the best hitter in minor league baseball. He got 80 FUCKING AT BATS to show if that could translate to the Majors. And they were not even in a row.
Proud Adoptive Parent of Jesus Guzman, RHP. 2010 Line: 0 H, 2 BB, 0.00 ERA. CALL HIM UP!
Bochy: What’s this fancy stat here?
IT Guy: That’s how often they get on base. I do not know why you keep asking me, I am here to fix your server.
This
So fucking this
Giants best trade option: Bowker for Rowand
by Giant Torture on Aug 1, 2010 5:31 AM PDT up reply actions
Given our current options
Martinez was our best choice to be a long reliever. Bowker meanwhile has good upside and is a lefty power bat WHICH THE TEAM NEEDS
Proud father of Mike Krukow (who is more than 3 times my age)
Grab Some Pine, Meat
Still cheering for Kevin Frandsen
John Bowker: One of the 3 best OF's on the Giants roster
lets be real...
You don’t know what the fuck you’re talking about.
Juan "Doesn't Cheat The Game" Perez, please keep hitting.
by marcello on Jul 31, 2010 3:35 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
It’s why I’ve been against trading for bullpen help the whole time. How difficult of a concept is “relief pitchers are rarely good pitchers”? And for that matter, the concept that “20-odd innings will not significantly impact the rest of your season.” Being desperate to trade anything for 20-odd innings of a bad pitcher is one of the most mind-bending things that baseball makes me have to think about.
"I just struck out looking three times, but in any other ballpark those would have been home runs." - Aubrey Huff
by howtheyscored on Jul 31, 2010 2:03 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
I'd trade
marginal MiL players for bullpen help. Guys like Burriss or Pucetas, but anything more than that is fucking crazy.
Sharlon Schoop - de favoriete Nederlandse honkbalspeler van McCovey Chronicles.
You always have to be one step ahead of your drunk friends
--Daisy Owl
Well, you’re a reasonable person.
"I just struck out looking three times, but in any other ballpark those would have been home runs." - Aubrey Huff
by howtheyscored on Jul 31, 2010 2:07 PM PDT up reply actions
And as such have no place in the Giants FO
Proud Adoptive Parent of Jesus Guzman, RHP. 2010 Line: 0 H, 2 BB, 0.00 ERA. CALL HIM UP!
Bochy: What’s this fancy stat here?
IT Guy: That’s how often they get on base. I do not know why you keep asking me, I am here to fix your server.
well, yeah, there's that I guess
Sharlon Schoop - de favoriete Nederlandse honkbalspeler van McCovey Chronicles.
You always have to be one step ahead of your drunk friends
--Daisy Owl
The Marlins acquired almost the same reliever, Will Ohman, from the Orioles and all it took was crappy Rick Vandenhurk. It’s not that John Bowker was poised to be a superstar, but I can’t believe that his only value was as a throw-in for a guy who was probably on the verge of being DFA’d. Basically, Lopez is a one-dimensional LOOGY who will fill the team with regret if he ever faces a Right-Handed hitter.
Sabean just needs to stay away from trades at the deadline. He seems to panic at the last minute and just makes moves to avoid looking complacent.
Eliminate that pesky Dominatrix in one easy step. Step 1: Tell her you're a Cubs fan!
by TMOX on Jul 31, 2010 2:01 PM PDT reply actions 1 recs
Righetti just talked about the trade during the game and he didn’t mention anything about Bowker. He just talked as if it was Martinez for Lopez. The announcers didn’t mention Bowker either…
I don’t think anyone cares about Bowker but us.
Bruce Bochy would like you to look at the career numbers and stop complaining.
Bob Howry's #1 (and only) fan!!!
The Merkin Valdez of McCovey Chronicles!!!!!!
Not surprising for a pitching coach to focus on a pitcher
Dearest, Susan - The Patron Saint of Patience
by Lars The Wanderer on Jul 31, 2010 2:02 PM PDT up reply actions
the Pirates DID say Bowker
Back on the market.
by positiveuphemism on Jul 31, 2010 2:04 PM PDT up reply actions
I think I am in shock
I know Sabean is terrible at making trades. The other GMs hit mute and giggle and snicker while talking to him. But what the hell is wrong with him. I mean, seriously…almost all the other contenders improved. Sabean talks to the Red Sox and takes a reliever that they don’t want. Did it not occur to him that if they don’t want the guy then we don’t either?
Then he gets absolutely fleeced by Pittsburgh. Seriously? You traded two of our better prospects for a few innings of a LH reliever? Seriously?
At least Bowker can now make Sabean look bad, too. All our offensive holes could have been filled if not for Sabeans stupidity. Ugh.
Back on the market.
by positiveuphemism on Jul 31, 2010 2:03 PM PDT reply actions
Phills got Oswalt for less.
Only McCoven not to get one of his comments rec'd in the Post Game Thread after that Epic win over the Dodgers.
by cybermaldonado on Jul 31, 2010 2:08 PM PDT up reply actions
Dammit
I hate that you are right.
Proud Adoptive Parent of Jesus Guzman, RHP. 2010 Line: 0 H, 2 BB, 0.00 ERA. CALL HIM UP!
Bochy: What’s this fancy stat here?
IT Guy: That’s how often they get on base. I do not know why you keep asking me, I am here to fix your server.
i don't know about that...
Sharlon Schoop - de favoriete Nederlandse honkbalspeler van McCovey Chronicles.
You always have to be one step ahead of your drunk friends
--Daisy Owl
You cant really say that without knowledge of both the Giants and Phillies farm systems.
I would like to talk to you about my pokemonz
Okay you got me. I admit to having zero knowledge of the Phills farm lol.
But, it still seems like they got a fantastic deal for Oswalt – other than the fact that he’s stunk since he got hit in the ankle….
Only McCoven not to get one of his comments rec'd in the Post Game Thread after that Epic win over the Dodgers.
by cybermaldonado on Jul 31, 2010 2:14 PM PDT up reply actions
Sabean has zero confidence in the farm system he himself built.
WTF is the point of having minor leagues if you aren’t going to trust the results.
An entire farm system built just to rehab Renteria every time he pulls a hammy?
Only McCoven not to get one of his comments rec'd in the Post Game Thread after that Epic win over the Dodgers.
by cybermaldonado on Jul 31, 2010 2:07 PM PDT reply actions 6 recs
This
and rec’d
Proud Adoptive Parent of Jesus Guzman, RHP. 2010 Line: 0 H, 2 BB, 0.00 ERA. CALL HIM UP!
Bochy: What’s this fancy stat here?
IT Guy: That’s how often they get on base. I do not know why you keep asking me, I am here to fix your server.
hankschulman Look. I understand fan discontent with Lopez deal. But let’s not lionize Bowker. Great guy. Great power. But could not deal with curveballs.
"I AIN'T HAVIN IT." - Buster Posey
Not the point, though.
"I just struck out looking three times, but in any other ballpark those would have been home runs." - Aubrey Huff
by howtheyscored on Jul 31, 2010 2:11 PM PDT up reply actions
The point is it’s a bad trade but let’s stop freaking out.
Bruce Bochy would like you to look at the career numbers and stop complaining.
Bob Howry's #1 (and only) fan!!!
The Merkin Valdez of McCovey Chronicles!!!!!!
No. Expression of disgust is a baseball fans’ only available means of showing disapproval to a team’s actions.
by HoosierGiant on Jul 31, 2010 2:18 PM PDT up reply actions
Dealing Bowker isn’t the issue. It’s the fact that we overpaid for Javier Lopez that’s aggravating.
by Punch Rockgroin on Jul 31, 2010 2:12 PM PDT up reply actions
neither could matty at first
how many at bats in the bigs did bowker get?
now we are stuck with rowand
oh…and now i understand why they had belt play left last nite
looks like for the next month…that will be his position
The thing is…he’s a great defender at 1b.
Weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee
Back on the market.
by positiveuphemism on Jul 31, 2010 2:21 PM PDT up reply actions
We obviously need more outfielders
Too many 1B in the system.
Proud Adoptive Parent of Jesus Guzman, RHP. 2010 Line: 0 H, 2 BB, 0.00 ERA. CALL HIM UP!
Bochy: What’s this fancy stat here?
IT Guy: That’s how often they get on base. I do not know why you keep asking me, I am here to fix your server.
Why is it that the Bowker haters think they are certain about Bowker's future
That’s some arrogance, right there.
The baseball Satanist
I promise that my adopted Giant, one Zach Wheeler, will not shoot anybody.
"I told the family lovingly slide"
the guy has given up 18 walks vs 22ks
isnt the biggest problem with our pen the walks allowed?
why did we have to give up 2 mlb ready players for a scrub?
Why did the Cards give the Pads Ludwick?
How did the Braves get Ankiel?
Back on the market.
by positiveuphemism on Jul 31, 2010 2:12 PM PDT reply actions
cuz they both have gms other gms like
nobody likes sabean
i think you may be on to something
Back on the market.
by positiveuphemism on Jul 31, 2010 2:22 PM PDT up reply actions
I'm pretty certain that I don't like the asshole.
"You can always recover from the player you didn't sign. You may never recover from the player you signed at the wrong price." --Billy Beane
"I am not an idiot."--Brian Sabean
by Sabean's_Folly on Jul 31, 2010 9:13 PM PDT up reply actions
+1
Quietly hoping Brandon Belt develops into John Olerud, circa 1993.
by AndOnTheDrums... on Aug 1, 2010 12:03 AM PDT up reply actions
I understand the situation is different now from then
But it bothers me how they go from handing him the 1st base job after one good AA year to dumping him his second time around destroying AAA.
I’d rather risk Espineli pitching to keep Bowker and Joey.
Note the lack of a hyphen.
Adopted father of Evan Crawford, leadoff hitter of your 2014 San Francisco Giants.
So before the deadline
I think the Giants were the best situated to make a run and over take the division.
Now with all the moves at the deadline
The Padres and Dodgers both improved, for nothing really. ( I cannot believe how the Dodgers got teams to pay for their players)
The Giants have just moved backwards.
Proud Adoptive Parent of Jesus Guzman, RHP. 2010 Line: 0 H, 2 BB, 0.00 ERA. CALL HIM UP!
Bochy: What’s this fancy stat here?
IT Guy: That’s how often they get on base. I do not know why you keep asking me, I am here to fix your server.
How did they move backwards?
Bruce Bochy would like you to look at the career numbers and stop complaining.
Bob Howry's #1 (and only) fan!!!
The Merkin Valdez of McCovey Chronicles!!!!!!
They got two relievers who stand in for basically what they had
while trading the only long relief they had and bat who may have been able to provide some offense in September. Bowker still would probably have been a september call up.
Proud Adoptive Parent of Jesus Guzman, RHP. 2010 Line: 0 H, 2 BB, 0.00 ERA. CALL HIM UP!
Bochy: What’s this fancy stat here?
IT Guy: That’s how often they get on base. I do not know why you keep asking me, I am here to fix your server.
not quite the case
getting bautista out of town is an upgrade, just way too expensive at the price.
I don’t think they moved backwards… they just overpaid for what they got. They needed a left in the pen, they got one. That’s improvement.
Adding a bad pitcher simply because he throws with his left hand is NOT improving.
Quietly hoping Brandon Belt develops into John Olerud, circa 1993.
by AndOnTheDrums... on Aug 1, 2010 12:04 AM PDT up reply actions
This Is Typical Of A Forever Mediocre Franchise With Not A Lot Of Money
Why is anyone ever surprised that this mediocre franchise doesn’t go all out to win championships. That has never been their ultimate goal. This is a franchise that has always been more concerned with the bottom line than winning rings.
All you have to do is look at their history. They statistically had the best player in the history of the game, Barry Bonds, and never surrounded him with enough good players to win championships.
Without a salary cap in the future, you will never see these middle of the road franchises, like the Giants ever win a championship.
Giants fans you have to understand that this is your fate, unless they sell to someone like Ellison or get a cap.
Oh hai.
"I just struck out looking three times, but in any other ballpark those would have been home runs." - Aubrey Huff
by howtheyscored on Jul 31, 2010 2:16 PM PDT up reply actions
I don’t agree, and what an overreaction to trading Bowker! I think the Giants are actually close if their prospects are for real, and Sabean doesn’t screw it up with trades like he made today.
Buster Posey: Let's enjoy him before he goes to the Yankees.
by rxmeister on Jul 31, 2010 2:43 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions
Because the salary cap in the NBA is so helpful for perennial contenders like the Warriors, Clippers, and TWolves, right?
Payroll discrepancy is not the problem with parity in baseball. Intelligence discrepancy is.
It's part of the problem.
However, I don’t think a cap is the answer. The NBA shows us what happens when a cap (well, close to one) meets a guaranteed salary league: Terrible teams into a vicious cycle of handing out max/near-max contracts to third or fourth tier stars, locking themselves into several more seasons of mediocrity.
VAE PVTO DEVS FIO
So fucking THIS!
"You can always recover from the player you didn't sign. You may never recover from the player you signed at the wrong price." --Billy Beane
"I am not an idiot."--Brian Sabean
by Sabean's_Folly on Jul 31, 2010 9:14 PM PDT up reply actions
(grm + E)/2 = The Sear
GROUGTHINK ALERT
"You all are just blinded to reality by your hatred of Armando just as the Bonds haters are." -grm
oh crap
all of his subject line words….
Proud Adoptive Parent of Jesus Guzman, RHP. 2010 Line: 0 H, 2 BB, 0.00 ERA. CALL HIM UP!
Bochy: What’s this fancy stat here?
IT Guy: That’s how often they get on base. I do not know why you keep asking me, I am here to fix your server.
I know The Sear from NinersNation. Best to just ignore.
"I just struck out looking three times, but in any other ballpark those would have been home runs." - Aubrey Huff
by howtheyscored on Jul 31, 2010 4:48 PM PDT up reply actions
extrabaggs
Giants were close to a deal for another bullpen guy, perhaps Scott Downs or David Aardsma. But it didn’t happen at last minute.
Proud Adoptive Parent of Jesus Guzman, RHP. 2010 Line: 0 H, 2 BB, 0.00 ERA. CALL HIM UP!
Bochy: What’s this fancy stat here?
IT Guy: That’s how often they get on base. I do not know why you keep asking me, I am here to fix your server.
Lopez's xFIP
is about the same as Bautista’s.
Sharlon Schoop - de favoriete Nederlandse honkbalspeler van McCovey Chronicles.
You always have to be one step ahead of your drunk friends
--Daisy Owl
Meh, I don't like xFIP.
When a pitcher gives up a homerun, they give up a homerun. Plus, there are too many pitchers who defy the average HR/FB ratio.
the problem is
they don’t do it consistently. You can’t expect a pitcher who defies the HR/FB rate one season to do it the next season. FIP correlates stronger with past ERA, but xFIP correlates stronger with future ERA.
Sharlon Schoop - de favoriete Nederlandse honkbalspeler van McCovey Chronicles.
You always have to be one step ahead of your drunk friends
--Daisy Owl
Over a large enough sample size, there is a decent element of skill with HR/FB (after park adjustments)
Though you don’t really know until a few seasons
Aaron King is still my homeboy... iffy mechanics and all
McFAQ for all you newcomers out there.
please don't phrase it that way
but I concur.
The worst about the Bowker thing for me
Is that he would have been useful in September.
Dearest, Susan - The Patron Saint of Patience
by Lars The Wanderer on Jul 31, 2010 2:19 PM PDT reply actions
This.
He was bound to be called up in September. But now we have no power to call up. Now they need to make a move for another bat.
Well there is my boy, but even I am not sold on his ability.
Proud Adoptive Parent of Jesus Guzman, RHP. 2010 Line: 0 H, 2 BB, 0.00 ERA. CALL HIM UP!
Bochy: What’s this fancy stat here?
IT Guy: That’s how often they get on base. I do not know why you keep asking me, I am here to fix your server.
I am worried that he could be Bowker'd
Proud Adoptive Parent of Jesus Guzman, RHP. 2010 Line: 0 H, 2 BB, 0.00 ERA. CALL HIM UP!
Bochy: What’s this fancy stat here?
IT Guy: That’s how often they get on base. I do not know why you keep asking me, I am here to fix your server.
I think he could've been useful now
in a platoon with Burrell
Proud father of Mike Krukow (who is more than 3 times my age)
Grab Some Pine, Meat
Still cheering for Kevin Frandsen
John Bowker: One of the 3 best OF's on the Giants roster
This too.
Proud Adoptive Parent of Jesus Guzman, RHP. 2010 Line: 0 H, 2 BB, 0.00 ERA. CALL HIM UP!
Bochy: What’s this fancy stat here?
IT Guy: That’s how often they get on base. I do not know why you keep asking me, I am here to fix your server.
God damnit
"Being a McCoven is like being a member of the Green party. It’s powerlessness is part of the appeal." - oldjacket
"Quiet you, I'm starting a meme." - Me
"You can shake a dozen glove men out of a tree, but the bat separates the men from the boys." - Washington Senators First baseman Dale Long
Proud papa to: Bill Schlough, Senior Vice President and Chief Information Officer, aka the IT guy.
Hate being the Sabean apologist...
but I just don’t think it’s that horrible…never been enamored with Bowker…
Joe Martinez is average at best and Lopez is about the same…however there is a premium for left handed pitching…Bowker was the premium…
My sense is that Sabean offered up the same deal to all the teams with LH relievers…Pirates were the only takers.
But the moment they said, you can have Lopez
What Sabean was offering should have dropped. This is no where near equal value. Martinez for Lopez is not even equal.
Proud Adoptive Parent of Jesus Guzman, RHP. 2010 Line: 0 H, 2 BB, 0.00 ERA. CALL HIM UP!
Bochy: What’s this fancy stat here?
IT Guy: That’s how often they get on base. I do not know why you keep asking me, I am here to fix your server.
LOPEZ IS NOT A GOOD PITCHER
it doesn’t matter if you thought Bowker was going to be good or not. If you think he could be even a marginal 1 WAR PH/spot starter to give guys rest, he would have provided more value to the team THAN A GODDAMN RELIEF PITCHER WHO ISN’T EVEN FUCKING GOOD.
Sharlon Schoop - de favoriete Nederlandse honkbalspeler van McCovey Chronicles.
You always have to be one step ahead of your drunk friends
--Daisy Owl
Trade value
this is not rocket science. Bowkers trade value as a high avg, high obp, high slg% hitter should have returned more then a reliever who cannot throw strikes.
Proud Adoptive Parent of Jesus Guzman, RHP. 2010 Line: 0 H, 2 BB, 0.00 ERA. CALL HIM UP!
Bochy: What’s this fancy stat here?
IT Guy: That’s how often they get on base. I do not know why you keep asking me, I am here to fix your server.
and that doesn’t even account for Joe Martinez also being included.
"Being a McCoven is like being a member of the Green party. It’s powerlessness is part of the appeal." - oldjacket
"Quiet you, I'm starting a meme." - Me
"You can shake a dozen glove men out of a tree, but the bat separates the men from the boys." - Washington Senators First baseman Dale Long
Proud papa to: Bill Schlough, Senior Vice President and Chief Information Officer, aka the IT guy.
Apparently not...
come on guys,,,I know you all hate sabean but you don’t he knows that will ohman or the guy from the ms’s was better? No one wanted to trade LH reliever for martinez and bowker…you guys are starting to sound like the Nats gripping about not getting “equal value” for Dunn
Then why not just NOT trade for those guys if you can’t get the actually good ones for a fair price?
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"Out, out, Fred Lewis!" - JCTillam Gamerspeare
That was about to be filled by a returning Runzler in 2 weeks.
Proud Adoptive Parent of Jesus Guzman, RHP. 2010 Line: 0 H, 2 BB, 0.00 ERA. CALL HIM UP!
Bochy: What’s this fancy stat here?
IT Guy: That’s how often they get on base. I do not know why you keep asking me, I am here to fix your server.
Two weeks is a long time.
Bruce Bochy would like you to look at the career numbers and stop complaining.
Bob Howry's #1 (and only) fan!!!
The Merkin Valdez of McCovey Chronicles!!!!!!
Why not?
Proud Adoptive Parent of Jesus Guzman, RHP. 2010 Line: 0 H, 2 BB, 0.00 ERA. CALL HIM UP!
Bochy: What’s this fancy stat here?
IT Guy: That’s how often they get on base. I do not know why you keep asking me, I am here to fix your server.
Yahoo sports states that he out 6-8 weeks from 7/9
not counting rehab
That mean late August/Early Sept
Latest reports said he threw yesterday off a mound with no discomfort.
Proud Adoptive Parent of Jesus Guzman, RHP. 2010 Line: 0 H, 2 BB, 0.00 ERA. CALL HIM UP!
Bochy: What’s this fancy stat here?
IT Guy: That’s how often they get on base. I do not know why you keep asking me, I am here to fix your server.
Runzler hasn’t been very good this year though. You know Sabean is thinking that the kid will be unable to get out lefties in key situations.
Buster Posey: Let's enjoy him before he goes to the Yankees.
by rxmeister on Jul 31, 2010 2:49 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions
yeah he has
3.8 xfip
Sharlon Schoop - de favoriete Nederlandse honkbalspeler van McCovey Chronicles.
You always have to be one step ahead of your drunk friends
--Daisy Owl
NEITHER HAS LOPEZ!
Proud Adoptive Parent of Jesus Guzman, RHP. 2010 Line: 0 H, 2 BB, 0.00 ERA. CALL HIM UP!
Bochy: What’s this fancy stat here?
IT Guy: That’s how often they get on base. I do not know why you keep asking me, I am here to fix your server.
The Sabean apologists will never get it.
In the world of baseball GMs, Sabean is the baby in the crib with the lollipop, just waiting to have it taken from his hand.
"You can always recover from the player you didn't sign. You may never recover from the player you signed at the wrong price." --Billy Beane
"I am not an idiot."--Brian Sabean
by Sabean's_Folly on Jul 31, 2010 9:17 PM PDT up reply actions
a LOOGY
will pitch MAYBE 15 innings the rest of the season. That’s like saying you have a glaring hole on your bench because Velez is taking up the 25th roster spot. It’s just not that fucking important
Sharlon Schoop - de favoriete Nederlandse honkbalspeler van McCovey Chronicles.
You always have to be one step ahead of your drunk friends
--Daisy Owl
But how does a replacement level reliever fill that hole?
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"Out, out, Fred Lewis!" - JCTillam Gamerspeare
lefty hole filler
very specific fetish porn
"Being a McCoven is like being a member of the Green party. It’s powerlessness is part of the appeal." - oldjacket
"Quiet you, I'm starting a meme." - Me
"You can shake a dozen glove men out of a tree, but the bat separates the men from the boys." - Washington Senators First baseman Dale Long
Proud papa to: Bill Schlough, Senior Vice President and Chief Information Officer, aka the IT guy.
at worst
a better option off the bench than travis ishikawa?
"Being a McCoven is like being a member of the Green party. It’s powerlessness is part of the appeal." - oldjacket
"Quiet you, I'm starting a meme." - Me
"You can shake a dozen glove men out of a tree, but the bat separates the men from the boys." - Washington Senators First baseman Dale Long
Proud papa to: Bill Schlough, Senior Vice President and Chief Information Officer, aka the IT guy.
like hell
bowker can play the OF. Ishikawa cannot.
"Being a McCoven is like being a member of the Green party. It’s powerlessness is part of the appeal." - oldjacket
"Quiet you, I'm starting a meme." - Me
"You can shake a dozen glove men out of a tree, but the bat separates the men from the boys." - Washington Senators First baseman Dale Long
Proud papa to: Bill Schlough, Senior Vice President and Chief Information Officer, aka the IT guy.
Doesn't matter
You can still “platoon” Ishi and Burrell because Huff can play LF and 1B
Proudly adopted Aubrey Huff. You can't beat that!
agree to disagree on ishikawa
Ishikawa brings intangibles to the game. He’s a great defensive player and a solid bat. Not the power but a solid bat.
He’s a pretty mediocre bat for a first baseman.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"Out, out, Fred Lewis!" - JCTillam Gamerspeare
he doesn't have power
but he’s gotten better every year, and is hitting .300 in his spot appearances which you can’t say for bowker.
lol regression
lol spot appearances
lol not understanding sample size
Sharlon Schoop - de favoriete Nederlandse honkbalspeler van McCovey Chronicles.
You always have to be one step ahead of your drunk friends
--Daisy Owl
LOL BATTING AVERAGE
Dearest, Susan - The Patron Saint of Patience
by Lars The Wanderer on Jul 31, 2010 2:43 PM PDT up reply actions
You just love to ignore sample sizes don't you?
Proud Adoptive Parent of Jesus Guzman, RHP. 2010 Line: 0 H, 2 BB, 0.00 ERA. CALL HIM UP!
Bochy: What’s this fancy stat here?
IT Guy: That’s how often they get on base. I do not know why you keep asking me, I am here to fix your server.
ftfy
He’s a pretty mediocre bad bat for a first baseman.
Sharlon Schoop - de favoriete Nederlandse honkbalspeler van McCovey Chronicles.
You always have to be one step ahead of your drunk friends
--Daisy Owl
ah the mystical intangibles.
Proud Adoptive Parent of Jesus Guzman, RHP. 2010 Line: 0 H, 2 BB, 0.00 ERA. CALL HIM UP!
Bochy: What’s this fancy stat here?
IT Guy: That’s how often they get on base. I do not know why you keep asking me, I am here to fix your server.
hey, don't believe in them,
but they save runs. You can’t count how many times in the last two seasons mark teixeira has saved runners from getting on base from digging balls in the dirt. It wasn’t his bat that the yankees needed, it was his glove
That's called defense, that is tangible and measurable
I am convinced now you do not understand anything about baseball.
Good day.
Proud Adoptive Parent of Jesus Guzman, RHP. 2010 Line: 0 H, 2 BB, 0.00 ERA. CALL HIM UP!
Bochy: What’s this fancy stat here?
IT Guy: That’s how often they get on base. I do not know why you keep asking me, I am here to fix your server.
hey guy
defense isn’t an intangible.
Sharlon Schoop - de favoriete Nederlandse honkbalspeler van McCovey Chronicles.
You always have to be one step ahead of your drunk friends
--Daisy Owl
.... But you can count how many times Big Tex has done that
Aaron King is still my homeboy... iffy mechanics and all
McFAQ for all you newcomers out there.
you can't count base runners saved,
there are no statistics to that. that’s an intangible. Same goes to catching. A good catcher can save base runners from running, just like a strong outfield arms can prevent runners from third base from tagging up. All those things matter in championship games.
There are statistics that keep track of these things.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"Out, out, Fred Lewis!" - JCTillam Gamerspeare
ok argue about everything,
point is, ishikawa does those small things that people don’t talk about, and bowker doesn’t
lol
Dearest, Susan - The Patron Saint of Patience
by Lars The Wanderer on Jul 31, 2010 2:48 PM PDT up reply actions
lol
remember ‘not gonna be a platoon’ that lasted till the 2nd game?
Sharlon Schoop - de favoriete Nederlandse honkbalspeler van McCovey Chronicles.
You always have to be one step ahead of your drunk friends
--Daisy Owl
Even if you're right
and Bowker flops with the Pirates and isn’t very good, that doesn’t mean the Giants couldn’t have gotten a hell of a lot more for him. That’s the issue. He could suck, but right now the perception of a mid 20’s power bat with 5 years of control should pull in something better than a mediocre LOOGY in his mid 30’s.
Please stop being so obtuse
"You can always recover from the player you didn't sign. You may never recover from the player you signed at the wrong price." --Billy Beane
"I am not an idiot."--Brian Sabean
by Sabean's_Folly on Jul 31, 2010 9:34 PM PDT up reply actions
People made this argument after the Alderson deal
…but unless you got to listen in on every phone conversation, you have no idea what he could have got for Bowker.
If Henry Schulman says Bowker can’t hit curveballs and it’s true, GMs surely know this as well.
Proudly adopted Aubrey Huff. You can't beat that!
here's the thing goof
if they really couldn’t have gotten anything for him other than a lefty who’s not likely to be better than Geno Espineli, they shouldn’t have traded him at all.
Sharlon Schoop - de favoriete Nederlandse honkbalspeler van McCovey Chronicles.
You always have to be one step ahead of your drunk friends
--Daisy Owl
he got plenty of chances
how long have the giants had him in the organization?? The giants have shown they know a thing or two about hitters lately bringing up posey and sandoval in the last 3 years, so if organizations scouts don’t think he can make it, than they probably know better than we do.
The giants have shown they know a thing or two about hitters
The giants have shown they know a thing or two about hitters
The giants have shown they know a thing or two about hitters
The giants have shown they know a thing or two about hitters
The giants have shown they know a thing or two about hitters
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"Out, out, Fred Lewis!" - JCTillam Gamerspeare
that thing is
hitters hold a bat.
Proud Adoptive Parent of Jesus Guzman, RHP. 2010 Line: 0 H, 2 BB, 0.00 ERA. CALL HIM UP!
Bochy: What’s this fancy stat here?
IT Guy: That’s how often they get on base. I do not know why you keep asking me, I am here to fix your server.
hey, don't think past 3 years from now,
but within the past 3 years, YES….they have shown they can find hitters and insert them in the major league team,
They did everything they could not to use Posey until they seriously looked like absolute morons for not doing so.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"Out, out, Fred Lewis!" - JCTillam Gamerspeare
They just didn't want to bring him up too early
don’t hate…teams do it all the time. Same with Strasburg
Did you miss the part where they brought him up for the entire month of September last year and refused to play him?
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"Out, out, Fred Lewis!" - JCTillam Gamerspeare
I am pretty sure Sabean has a say in promotions.
Again, I do not think you know how baseball works.
Proud Adoptive Parent of Jesus Guzman, RHP. 2010 Line: 0 H, 2 BB, 0.00 ERA. CALL HIM UP!
Bochy: What’s this fancy stat here?
IT Guy: That’s how often they get on base. I do not know why you keep asking me, I am here to fix your server.
no, it's bochy's
bad for not playing him. Sabean didn’t want to make the same mistake twice, so he didn’t start him at the beginning of the year
bochy is sabean's employee
this is what direct orders are for.
"Being a McCoven is like being a member of the Green party. It’s powerlessness is part of the appeal." - oldjacket
"Quiet you, I'm starting a meme." - Me
"You can shake a dozen glove men out of a tree, but the bat separates the men from the boys." - Washington Senators First baseman Dale Long
Proud papa to: Bill Schlough, Senior Vice President and Chief Information Officer, aka the IT guy.
Sabean front office
Bochy manager
Unless and until Sabean becomes manager/GM, don’t attribute Bochy’s decision to Sabean
this is no way to run an organization
"Being a McCoven is like being a member of the Green party. It’s powerlessness is part of the appeal." - oldjacket
"Quiet you, I'm starting a meme." - Me
"You can shake a dozen glove men out of a tree, but the bat separates the men from the boys." - Washington Senators First baseman Dale Long
Proud papa to: Bill Schlough, Senior Vice President and Chief Information Officer, aka the IT guy.
General managers direct the personnel decisions of their managers all the time.
"I just struck out looking three times, but in any other ballpark those would have been home runs." - Aubrey Huff
by howtheyscored on Jul 31, 2010 3:26 PM PDT up reply actions
however,
not many GM’s tell there managers who should and shouldn’t be in the starting lineup. That’s crossing the line for most managers
How do you know this?
Towers did to Bochy in SD. Bochy ignored him, so Towers had to trade the player that he would not bench.
Proud Adoptive Parent of Jesus Guzman, RHP. 2010 Line: 0 H, 2 BB, 0.00 ERA. CALL HIM UP!
Bochy: What’s this fancy stat here?
IT Guy: That’s how often they get on base. I do not know why you keep asking me, I am here to fix your server.
No I am pretty sure I do.
Cause I am not the only one confused by your reasoning.
Proud Adoptive Parent of Jesus Guzman, RHP. 2010 Line: 0 H, 2 BB, 0.00 ERA. CALL HIM UP!
Bochy: What’s this fancy stat here?
IT Guy: That’s how often they get on base. I do not know why you keep asking me, I am here to fix your server.
like last september?
"Being a McCoven is like being a member of the Green party. It’s powerlessness is part of the appeal." - oldjacket
"Quiet you, I'm starting a meme." - Me
"You can shake a dozen glove men out of a tree, but the bat separates the men from the boys." - Washington Senators First baseman Dale Long
Proud papa to: Bill Schlough, Senior Vice President and Chief Information Officer, aka the IT guy.
Even if you are right, which you are not
Molina had to be traded before he would be put at his correct position every day.
Proud Adoptive Parent of Jesus Guzman, RHP. 2010 Line: 0 H, 2 BB, 0.00 ERA. CALL HIM UP!
Bochy: What’s this fancy stat here?
IT Guy: That’s how often they get on base. I do not know why you keep asking me, I am here to fix your server.
cuz sabean has no control over that
S – “Boch, play Posey at catcher or you’re fired”
Sharlon Schoop - de favoriete Nederlandse honkbalspeler van McCovey Chronicles.
You always have to be one step ahead of your drunk friends
--Daisy Owl
absolutely
that’s how any boss should treat an employee when the employee is doing something expressly against the employers thoughts
"Being a McCoven is like being a member of the Green party. It’s powerlessness is part of the appeal." - oldjacket
"Quiet you, I'm starting a meme." - Me
"You can shake a dozen glove men out of a tree, but the bat separates the men from the boys." - Washington Senators First baseman Dale Long
Proud papa to: Bill Schlough, Senior Vice President and Chief Information Officer, aka the IT guy.
Uh, yeah
If you were at work and you boss asks you to make a spreadsheet in excel, do you say
“Nah, I am going to hammer it onto a sheet of sandstone entirely in hieroglyphics”
Proud Adoptive Parent of Jesus Guzman, RHP. 2010 Line: 0 H, 2 BB, 0.00 ERA. CALL HIM UP!
Bochy: What’s this fancy stat here?
IT Guy: That’s how often they get on base. I do not know why you keep asking me, I am here to fix your server.
by scout6 on Jul 31, 2010 3:05 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
but baseballs different!
it just is.
"Being a McCoven is like being a member of the Green party. It’s powerlessness is part of the appeal." - oldjacket
"Quiet you, I'm starting a meme." - Me
"You can shake a dozen glove men out of a tree, but the bat separates the men from the boys." - Washington Senators First baseman Dale Long
Proud papa to: Bill Schlough, Senior Vice President and Chief Information Officer, aka the IT guy.
this is not a spreadsheet in excel
this is professional baseball with contracts of millions of dollars.
it's still a job
if your boss tells you to do something, you do it, period.
Sharlon Schoop - de favoriete Nederlandse honkbalspeler van McCovey Chronicles.
You always have to be one step ahead of your drunk friends
--Daisy Owl
you'all can keep on hatin haters
“HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE”
Nice counterpoint.
Proud Adoptive Parent of Jesus Guzman, RHP. 2010 Line: 0 H, 2 BB, 0.00 ERA. CALL HIM UP!
Bochy: What’s this fancy stat here?
IT Guy: That’s how often they get on base. I do not know why you keep asking me, I am here to fix your server.
lol
/vuvuzela
Dearest, Susan - The Patron Saint of Patience
by Lars The Wanderer on Jul 31, 2010 3:10 PM PDT up reply actions
"haters"
the last defense of the loser of an argument.
"Being a McCoven is like being a member of the Green party. It’s powerlessness is part of the appeal." - oldjacket
"Quiet you, I'm starting a meme." - Me
"You can shake a dozen glove men out of a tree, but the bat separates the men from the boys." - Washington Senators First baseman Dale Long
Proud papa to: Bill Schlough, Senior Vice President and Chief Information Officer, aka the IT guy.
What the hell apostrophe?
"I just struck out looking three times, but in any other ballpark those would have been home runs." - Aubrey Huff
by howtheyscored on Jul 31, 2010 3:27 PM PDT up reply actions
do n'ot be such a hater
"Being a McCoven is like being a member of the Green party. It’s powerlessness is part of the appeal." - oldjacket
"Quiet you, I'm starting a meme." - Me
"You can shake a dozen glove men out of a tree, but the bat separates the men from the boys." - Washington Senators First baseman Dale Long
Proud papa to: Bill Schlough, Senior Vice President and Chief Information Officer, aka the IT guy.
or even
say “Nah, I’m going to use a Works spreadsheet, because i like it better!”
Sharlon Schoop - de favoriete Nederlandse honkbalspeler van McCovey Chronicles.
You always have to be one step ahead of your drunk friends
--Daisy Owl
have you ever had a job ever?
I’ll expand a little more:
S – Boch, we’re bringing up Posey for the stretch run, give him some starts at C so bengie can get some rest, I think he could really help the team.
B – Ok Sabes!
S – Boch, why haven’t you played Posey yet?
B – Well, he hasn’t caught Major League pitching before?
S – I told you to play him. Play him.
(Whiteside debacle happens)
S – Really Boch? Whiteside needed to be kept fresh? You do know that he caught an extra inning game like 2 days ago right?
B – Bork.
S – Boch, play Posey at catcher or you’re fired.
Sharlon Schoop - de favoriete Nederlandse honkbalspeler van McCovey Chronicles.
You always have to be one step ahead of your drunk friends
--Daisy Owl
that's how it would work in a normal job
because they can fire you without caring. but boch knows they aren’t going to go fire him, pay him his money, and then hire a manager who is more than likely worse than him. That’s bad business. If they fire a normal joe, they are firing someone who is earining 55K a year.
professional baseball organizations
also have MUCH more cash on hand than most regular businesses. They can afford to do stuff like that.
Managers get fired all the time, even when the team is performing relatively well.
Do you follow baseball at all?
Sharlon Schoop - de favoriete Nederlandse honkbalspeler van McCovey Chronicles.
You always have to be one step ahead of your drunk friends
--Daisy Owl
no GM would ever do that
that’s bad business and bad managing from Sabean’s perspective. What Manager would want to come work for the giants after hearing he told that to a well respected manager around the league like Bochy is.
it's what you do to insubordinate employees.
Sharlon Schoop - de favoriete Nederlandse honkbalspeler van McCovey Chronicles.
You always have to be one step ahead of your drunk friends
--Daisy Owl
Billy Beane is famous for doing that.
"I just struck out looking three times, but in any other ballpark those would have been home runs." - Aubrey Huff
by howtheyscored on Jul 31, 2010 3:28 PM PDT up reply actions
Also, Bruce Bochy’s former employee.
"I just struck out looking three times, but in any other ballpark those would have been home runs." - Aubrey Huff
by howtheyscored on Jul 31, 2010 3:28 PM PDT up reply actions
employer?
Sharlon Schoop - de favoriete Nederlandse honkbalspeler van McCovey Chronicles.
You always have to be one step ahead of your drunk friends
--Daisy Owl
Yes, that.
"I just struck out looking three times, but in any other ballpark those would have been home runs." - Aubrey Huff
by howtheyscored on Jul 31, 2010 3:30 PM PDT up reply actions
yup
obviously letting Bochy go destroyed the padres org.
Sharlon Schoop - de favoriete Nederlandse honkbalspeler van McCovey Chronicles.
You always have to be one step ahead of your drunk friends
--Daisy Owl
You miss Bengie, don’t you.
Dearest, Susan - The Patron Saint of Patience
by Lars The Wanderer on Jul 31, 2010 2:54 PM PDT up reply actions
yuck
i wish we would have signed yorvit torrealba vs. bengie.
he was cheaper
and could actually play some defense
HE HAD HIS CHANCE!
The giants have shown they know a thing or two about hitters
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Dearest, Susan - The Patron Saint of Patience
by Lars The Wanderer on Jul 31, 2010 2:52 PM PDT up reply actions
YOU ARE IGNORING THAT HE BECAME A COMPLETELY DIFFERENT HITTER LAST YEAR.
Proud Adoptive Parent of Jesus Guzman, RHP. 2010 Line: 0 H, 2 BB, 0.00 ERA. CALL HIM UP!
Bochy: What’s this fancy stat here?
IT Guy: That’s how often they get on base. I do not know why you keep asking me, I am here to fix your server.
Wait...
so Giants are bad because they know nothing about hitters but Giants knew something when they drafted Bowker?
They know a thing or two about hitters!
Dearest, Susan - The Patron Saint of Patience
by Lars The Wanderer on Jul 31, 2010 2:53 PM PDT up reply actions
the giants
don’t have the same approach to hitting. THey’ve hired sabermetric people and other people who look at the game from a different perspective. They are approaching scouting in a different way than they used to. So yes they have changed
people and organizations can't change???
Is that what you think?
facepalm
He said Bowker has been in the organization for years, so they know what he is. My problem is no they do not as last year he completely reworked his approach and became an entirely different hitter.
He was then given 80 PAs (scattered) to try and prove it could transfer to the Majors, after he won the starting job out of ST (on those numbers alone, another FO move that can be debated later).
When in those 80 attemps he hit a slump, he was written off forever.
Try to keep up.
Proud Adoptive Parent of Jesus Guzman, RHP. 2010 Line: 0 H, 2 BB, 0.00 ERA. CALL HIM UP!
Bochy: What’s this fancy stat here?
IT Guy: That’s how often they get on base. I do not know why you keep asking me, I am here to fix your server.
Counterpoint
They brought up Posey last September for the stretch drive and then DID NOT FUCKING PLAY HIM.
"I could hear the angry MCC cacophany in my head."--Oldjacket, 7/4/10
how do you know this if people don't talk about it?
this is post hoc ergo propter hoc reasoning at it’s finest.
"Being a McCoven is like being a member of the Green party. It’s powerlessness is part of the appeal." - oldjacket
"Quiet you, I'm starting a meme." - Me
"You can shake a dozen glove men out of a tree, but the bat separates the men from the boys." - Washington Senators First baseman Dale Long
Proud papa to: Bill Schlough, Senior Vice President and Chief Information Officer, aka the IT guy.
In a game that has numbers for absolutely everything
Intangibles are pretty damn worthless.
numbers don't mean everything at all
the best teams don’t win with their numbers. Or the yankees would win it every year
you don't understand numbers
"Being a McCoven is like being a member of the Green party. It’s powerlessness is part of the appeal." - oldjacket
"Quiet you, I'm starting a meme." - Me
"You can shake a dozen glove men out of a tree, but the bat separates the men from the boys." - Washington Senators First baseman Dale Long
Proud papa to: Bill Schlough, Senior Vice President and Chief Information Officer, aka the IT guy.
WHAT. THE. FUCK.
Hensley "Bam Bam" Meulens!
Better than you! Mejor que tú! Beter dan jij! 良い場合も! Mehor than abo!
"The trouble with baseball is that it is not played the year round." - Gaylord Perry
by GrahamCrakalaka on Jul 31, 2010 4:00 PM PDT up reply actions
being a great defensive 1B
is one of the more worthless skills in baseball if you can’t hit
"Being a McCoven is like being a member of the Green party. It’s powerlessness is part of the appeal." - oldjacket
"Quiet you, I'm starting a meme." - Me
"You can shake a dozen glove men out of a tree, but the bat separates the men from the boys." - Washington Senators First baseman Dale Long
Proud papa to: Bill Schlough, Senior Vice President and Chief Information Officer, aka the IT guy.
but he can hit.
ishikawa has hit .300 for us this season and has proven he has an approach to all fields, not just pull power like bowker.
His defense is tangible.
"I just struck out looking three times, but in any other ballpark those would have been home runs." - Aubrey Huff
by howtheyscored on Jul 31, 2010 3:23 PM PDT up reply actions
None because they don't want him.
Apparently Huntington knows how to get quality throw aways and organizational misfits. Looking at his acquisitions that actually looks like a clearly defined strategy for him.
Smart.
True Bowker should have more trade value, but he doesn’t because his org is willing to throw him away because he didn’t want to play winterball in Venezuela where he feared for his life.
Q: Did you ever make an offer for Vladimir Guerrero?
Sabean: In a word: No. If we had signed Guerrero or [Gary] Sheffield, we would have been without [Long list of replacement level vets]—obviously not being able to field a competitive team, especially from an experience standpoint, given our level of spending.
I agree with you
finally a man with some sense.
By all means, lets just throw away a guy who has averaged a 1000 OPS in AAA.
"Being a McCoven is like being a member of the Green party. It’s powerlessness is part of the appeal." - oldjacket
"Quiet you, I'm starting a meme." - Me
"You can shake a dozen glove men out of a tree, but the bat separates the men from the boys." - Washington Senators First baseman Dale Long
Proud papa to: Bill Schlough, Senior Vice President and Chief Information Officer, aka the IT guy.
We just bought 15 or 20 perfect left-handed relief innings. Perfect. Don’t be so glib.
by Grant Brisbee on Jul 31, 2010 2:33 PM PDT up reply actions
Now, now
it’s unreasonable to think these innings will be perfect
Proud father of Mike Krukow (who is more than 3 times my age)
Grab Some Pine, Meat
Still cheering for Kevin Frandsen
John Bowker: One of the 3 best OF's on the Giants roster
But...
LEFTIES CAN’T HIT LEFTIES
Read my Cal blog: http://since59.blogspot.com/ Go Bears!
Ryan Verdugo, my adopted son, is currently boasting a 10.8 K/9 for the San Jose Giants. CALL HIM UP!
BUT HE COULD NOT CUT IT IN THE MAJORS
Proud Adoptive Parent of Jesus Guzman, RHP. 2010 Line: 0 H, 2 BB, 0.00 ERA. CALL HIM UP!
Bochy: What’s this fancy stat here?
IT Guy: That’s how often they get on base. I do not know why you keep asking me, I am here to fix your server.
Couldn’t we have gotten Evan Meek at least?
Hensley "Bam Bam" Meulens!
Better than you! Mejor que tú! Beter dan jij! 良い場合も! Mehor than abo!
"The trouble with baseball is that it is not played the year round." - Gaylord Perry
by GrahamCrakalaka on Jul 31, 2010 2:33 PM PDT reply actions
SAN FRANCISCO, CA – In a move to strengthen the bullpen the San Francisco Giants have acquired left-handed pitcher Javier Lopez from the Pittsburgh Pirates in exchange for right-handed pitcher Joe Martinez and outfielder John Bowker, club Senior Vice President and General Manager Brian Sabean announced today.
The 33-year-old San Juan, Puerto Rico native has gone 2-2 with a 2.79 ERA (12er, 38.2ip) with 22 strikeouts in 50 games for the Pirates this year, particularly performing well against left-handed hitters, having held them to a .204 batting avg. against (11-for-54). He’s also excelled with runners in scoring position, limiting opposition to .200 (9-for-45) clip, including .217 (15-for-69) mark with runners on base.
Lopez’s 50 games rank third most in the National League among left-handed relievers and his 2.79 ERA is seventh lowest among southpaws. He’s also posted a 2.11 groundball to flyball ratio, 19th-best mark among NL relievers and has induced seven grounded into double-play balls, which is tied for fourth-most in league. The 6-foot-4, 230-pound Lopez has the ability to pitch in back-to-back games, having done so in 14 of his 50 appearances this year.
Lopez has logged a 13-9 record with a 4.37 ERA (137er, 282.1ip), four saves and 174 strikeouts in 393 Major League contests exclusively from the bullpen. Throughout his career, he has held lefties to a .243 batting avg. against (128-for-527). He has spent parts of eight seasons in the Majors as he was originally a fourth round selection by Arizona in the 1998 First-Year Player Draft. The left-hander has familiarity with the NL West as he has appeared with Colorado (2003-05) and Arizona (2005), as well as Boston (2006-09) and Pittsburgh (2010) during his career.
Lopez has postseason experience having made eight appearances with the Boston Red Sox in 2007-08.
Martinez, 27, spent three different stints with the Giants this season, going 0-1 with a 4.91 ERA (6er, 11.0ip) in 4 games (one start). He last pitched on Thursday vs. Florida, tossing 2.0 innings while allowing 2 runs on 2 hits. The New Jersey native was 5-3 with a 3.32 ERA (30er, 81.1ip) in 14 games (13 starts) at triple-A this year. In two big league seasons with San Francisco, the right-hander has gone 3-3 with a 6.80 ERA (31er, 41.0ip) in 13 games (six starts).
Bowker, who turned 27 earlier this month, made San Francisco’s Opening Day roster this year, but hit just .207 (17-for-82) with three home runs and eight RBI in 41 games. Bowker was optioned to triple-A Fresno on June 2, where he batted .310 (61-for-197) with 14 home runs and 36 RBI in 51 games for the Grizzlies. In 183 career games at Major League level, spanning three seasons with Giants, Bowker owns a .238 (113-for-475) average with 15 home runs and 58 RBI.
SAN FRANCISCO, CA – The San Francisco Giants have acquired right-handed pitcher Ramon Ramirez from the Boston Red Sox in exchange for right-handed minor league pitcher Daniel Turpen, club Senior Vice President and General Manager Brian Sabean announced today.
Ramirez, 28, has gone 0-3 with a 4.46 ERA (21er, 42.1ip) in 44 relief appearances with the Red Sox this season. He’s allowed nine earned runs in his last 25.1 innings (3.20 ERA) since May 26, holding opposition at a .212 (18-for-85) avg. against during that span. He’s also stranded 16 of his last 20 inherited runners and 21 of 26 overall this season for the eighth lowest inherited runners scored percent in the American League.
Since the All-Star beak, Ramirez has appeared in seven games, tossing 6.2 innings with seven strikeouts and has held opponents to a .190 (4-for-21) avg. against.
The native of the Dominican Republic has been particularly tough on right-handed hitters throughout his career, fashioning a .210 (112-for-533) avg. against. Ramirez has had a lot of experience in late and close games, recording 33 holds from 2008-09, which ranked as 19th-most in the Majors. He’s had success in late and close contests this season, holding opponents to a .149 clip (7-for-47) with no home runs allowed. Between 2008 and 2009, he appeared in 141 games, posted a 2.74 ERA and held opponents to a .227 avg. against, including right-handed hitters at .186.
In his fifth Major League season this year, Ramirez has gone 16-14 with a 3.55 ERA (106er, 268.2ip) in 268 relief appearances with Colorado (2006-07), Kansas City (2008) and Boston (2009-10).
Ramirez has one career appearance in postseason play, appearing last year with Boston in the Division Series.
Turpen, 23, has spent the 2010 season with the Giants’ double-A affiliate in Richmond, going 5-5 with a 4.09 ERA (23er, 50.2ip) in 37 relief appearances. The 6-foot-4, 240-pound right-hander was invited to Giants Major League spring camp for the first time this season after appearing in 107 minor league contests. He was originally San Francisco’s eighth round selection in the 2007 draft.
by Grant Brisbee on Jul 31, 2010 2:38 PM PDT up reply actions
Talk about SSS
Did Sabes just look at Ramirez’s numbers post-ASG before pulling the trigger on this trade?
"I could hear the angry MCC cacophany in my head."--Oldjacket, 7/4/10
HOLY SHIT 33 HOLDS OVER TWO SEASONS
/swoons
GROUGTHINK ALERT
"You all are just blinded to reality by your hatred of Armando just as the Bonds haters are." -grm
Holds has to be the dumbest stat ever.
by North Side Chicago Expatriate Giants Fan on Jul 31, 2010 4:16 PM PDT up reply actions
If they were in the press release, they must have been important.
Duh.
GROUGTHINK ALERT
"You all are just blinded to reality by your hatred of Armando just as the Bonds haters are." -grm
/fans groug
Utter frustration and futility.
Adopted 'nephew' to the ever avuncular and always awesome Jon Miller
by Johnny Disaster on Jul 31, 2010 4:36 PM PDT up reply actions
Ramirez is the better pitcher
and we got him for less
Proud father of Mike Krukow (who is more than 3 times my age)
Grab Some Pine, Meat
Still cheering for Kevin Frandsen
John Bowker: One of the 3 best OF's on the Giants roster
i was curious
since they didn’t mention what his postseason stats were and…
9.00 career post season ERA. 11 hits allowed in 5 IP.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"Out, out, Fred Lewis!" - JCTillam Gamerspeare
IT'S THE EXPERIENCE THAT COUNTS, OK?
Proud Adoptive Parent of Jesus Guzman, RHP. 2010 Line: 0 H, 2 BB, 0.00 ERA. CALL HIM UP!
Bochy: What’s this fancy stat here?
IT Guy: That’s how often they get on base. I do not know why you keep asking me, I am here to fix your server.
You know what
Fuck this thread. It should be closed and deleted. It’s just awful and should never be referenced again.
Back on the market.
by positiveuphemism on Jul 31, 2010 2:41 PM PDT reply actions
It gets better
hankschulman
No. Honestly think one will get DFA’d tomorrow. RT @Bry228: could we get anything for Casilla or Bautista through a trade? like a PTBNL
Proud Adoptive Parent of Jesus Guzman, RHP. 2010 Line: 0 H, 2 BB, 0.00 ERA. CALL HIM UP!
Bochy: What’s this fancy stat here?
IT Guy: That’s how often they get on base. I do not know why you keep asking me, I am here to fix your server.
Awesome.
Trade for reliever1 by giving away AAA slugger 1 along with 5th starter/longman1 to get reliever2
Q: Did you ever make an offer for Vladimir Guerrero?
Sabean: In a word: No. If we had signed Guerrero or [Gary] Sheffield, we would have been without [Long list of replacement level vets]—obviously not being able to field a competitive team, especially from an experience standpoint, given our level of spending.
I think Bautista needs to be DFAd immediately for the 4-pitch walk to Hong-Chih Kuo, anyway.
"I don’t think I’ve ever heard a louder chorus of boos than when the Dodgers made the third out of the ninth. It was awesome.." - Aubrey Huff
by EliminateMe on Jul 31, 2010 11:45 PM PDT up reply actions
a few weeks too late
and also, why has he been pitching in the 8th inning in close games? sheesh
I would have enjoyed getting Ted Liilly and Octavio Dotel.
I would like to talk to you about my pokemonz
Yeah, same here
Proud father of Mike Krukow (who is more than 3 times my age)
Grab Some Pine, Meat
Still cheering for Kevin Frandsen
John Bowker: One of the 3 best OF's on the Giants roster
I would have liked Lilly.
Dotel is garbage. I know, he’s on my Pokemonz.
THE GREATEST OF ALL TIME (for 3 days in 1995).
by Mike Benjamin Hit King on Jul 31, 2010 4:23 PM PDT up reply actions
Dotel was on my Pokemonz until a couple hours ago.
by North Side Chicago Expatriate Giants Fan on Jul 31, 2010 4:27 PM PDT up reply actions
Imagine the fan outrage if Sabean didn’t make this move.
Bruce Bochy would like you to look at the career numbers and stop complaining.
Bob Howry's #1 (and only) fan!!!
The Merkin Valdez of McCovey Chronicles!!!!!!
I would have been fine standing pat.
Proud Adoptive Parent of Jesus Guzman, RHP. 2010 Line: 0 H, 2 BB, 0.00 ERA. CALL HIM UP!
Bochy: What’s this fancy stat here?
IT Guy: That’s how often they get on base. I do not know why you keep asking me, I am here to fix your server.
But we’re a SSS. If the Giants didn’t do anything the fan outrage would have been bad. As is, he’s probably going to catch enough flack for just getting a couple relievers.
Bruce Bochy would like you to look at the career numbers and stop complaining.
Bob Howry's #1 (and only) fan!!!
The Merkin Valdez of McCovey Chronicles!!!!!!
I don’t believe that… non “net fans” that I know didn’t think we needed a trade, and have seemed to catch on that Sabean always screws up deadline deals. Both my dad and grandpa said this today…
My brother frustrates the heck out of me when he talks about baseball, demonstrating an over-reliance on RBIs and microsplits, among other things, that I can’t seem to break him of, and even he thought that our showing this trade deadline was awful.
"I just struck out looking three times, but in any other ballpark those would have been home runs." - Aubrey Huff
by howtheyscored on Jul 31, 2010 11:33 PM PDT up reply actions
I would have been fine with it.
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"Out, out, Fred Lewis!" - JCTillam Gamerspeare
SSS
Bruce Bochy would like you to look at the career numbers and stop complaining.
Bob Howry's #1 (and only) fan!!!
The Merkin Valdez of McCovey Chronicles!!!!!!
Uh ok
Matt Cain: He'll save children, but not the Dodger children.
"Out, out, Fred Lewis!" - JCTillam Gamerspeare
My point is that the majority of the fan base wants a GM to make big moves if he has a good team. And a majority of fans also saw the debacle of not having a left-handed reliever last night.
Bruce Bochy would like you to look at the career numbers and stop complaining.
Bob Howry's #1 (and only) fan!!!
The Merkin Valdez of McCovey Chronicles!!!!!!
I could just imagine Sabes as a kid..
It’s his birthday party and he just won 400 tickets playing skeeball and that dumbass machine that pushes down coins, and he goes to get a prize.
Sitting in the case, a shiny new pack of baseball cards for 200 tickets, a new SF Giants hat, 200 tickets, and a bucket of bouncy balls, 50 tickets.
Sabean trades in his 400 tickets for 2 bouncy balls and takes off.
Welcome to Brian Sabean.
Oh, look at that, Zito must be over 90 pitches…
"Being a McCoven is like being a member of the Green party. It’s powerlessness is part of the appeal." - oldjacket
"Quiet you, I'm starting a meme." - Me
"You can shake a dozen glove men out of a tree, but the bat separates the men from the boys." - Washington Senators First baseman Dale Long
Proud papa to: Bill Schlough, Senior Vice President and Chief Information Officer, aka the IT guy.
I think some of you should take some pointers from Grant....
about how to be pissed off without acting like someone just killed your dog.
where'd this come from?
go fuck yourself.
"Being a McCoven is like being a member of the Green party. It’s powerlessness is part of the appeal." - oldjacket
"Quiet you, I'm starting a meme." - Me
"You can shake a dozen glove men out of a tree, but the bat separates the men from the boys." - Washington Senators First baseman Dale Long
Proud papa to: Bill Schlough, Senior Vice President and Chief Information Officer, aka the IT guy.
I was being ironical.
"Being a McCoven is like being a member of the Green party. It’s powerlessness is part of the appeal." - oldjacket
"Quiet you, I'm starting a meme." - Me
"You can shake a dozen glove men out of a tree, but the bat separates the men from the boys." - Washington Senators First baseman Dale Long
Proud papa to: Bill Schlough, Senior Vice President and Chief Information Officer, aka the IT guy.
Yeah, you can kiss my ass too.
Proud Adoptive Parent of Jesus Guzman, RHP. 2010 Line: 0 H, 2 BB, 0.00 ERA. CALL HIM UP!
Bochy: What’s this fancy stat here?
IT Guy: That’s how often they get on base. I do not know why you keep asking me, I am here to fix your server.
Grant killed my dog
Dearest, Susan - The Patron Saint of Patience
by Lars The Wanderer on Jul 31, 2010 2:57 PM PDT up reply actions
and btw
are you someone’s mommy? who are you to come in and tell people the way they should react?
not all of us are stoned
"Being a McCoven is like being a member of the Green party. It’s powerlessness is part of the appeal." - oldjacket
"Quiet you, I'm starting a meme." - Me
"You can shake a dozen glove men out of a tree, but the bat separates the men from the boys." - Washington Senators First baseman Dale Long
Proud papa to: Bill Schlough, Senior Vice President and Chief Information Officer, aka the IT guy.
THERE IS NOTHING IRONIC ABOUT KILLING MY DOG!
Bastard
Dearest, Susan - The Patron Saint of Patience
by Lars The Wanderer on Jul 31, 2010 3:00 PM PDT up reply actions
No, no. I used cat poison. That’s very much ironic.
by Grant Brisbee on Jul 31, 2010 3:01 PM PDT up reply actions
Hey, go fuck yourself, Voice of Reason Guy
by Grant Brisbee on Jul 31, 2010 3:03 PM PDT up reply actions
My dog was my voice of reason
Dearest, Susan - The Patron Saint of Patience
by Lars The Wanderer on Jul 31, 2010 3:05 PM PDT up reply actions
I thought it was your neighbor’s dog telling you those things.
Utter frustration and futility.
Adopted 'nephew' to the ever avuncular and always awesome Jon Miller
by Johnny Disaster on Jul 31, 2010 9:37 PM PDT up reply actions
Maybe he could've fucking hit Bills
Seems like nobody else can.
Remember that one time, when we got the Pirates to take Matt Morris’ and pay the remainder of his salary, and they gave us Rajai Davis, too?
Methinks the Pirates are now even.
"I could hear the angry MCC cacophany in my head."--Oldjacket, 7/4/10
We all owe a karmic debt to the Pirates that couldn’t be repaid with 500 Bowkers. Not that I’m complaining, mind you.
A nation turns its lonely eyes to you.
Utter frustration and futility.
Adopted 'nephew' to the ever avuncular and always awesome Jon Miller
by Johnny Disaster on Jul 31, 2010 9:39 PM PDT up reply actions
Humor time
SavvySabes
If you can think of a better way of obtaining Javier Lopez, I’d like to hear it. BS #SFGiants #MLB
Proud Adoptive Parent of Jesus Guzman, RHP. 2010 Line: 0 H, 2 BB, 0.00 ERA. CALL HIM UP!
Bochy: What’s this fancy stat here?
IT Guy: That’s how often they get on base. I do not know why you keep asking me, I am here to fix your server.
How about a dozen straw hats and a Rib Eye?
Q: Did you ever make an offer for Vladimir Guerrero?
Sabean: In a word: No. If we had signed Guerrero or [Gary] Sheffield, we would have been without [Long list of replacement level vets]—obviously not being able to field a competitive team, especially from an experience standpoint, given our level of spending.
but I thought
straw hats can’t even claim ribeyes?
Sharlon Schoop - de favoriete Nederlandse honkbalspeler van McCovey Chronicles.
You always have to be one step ahead of your drunk friends
--Daisy Owl
kinda seems like a replay of the Lewis situation. Undervalued a good, if flawed player, didn’t get full value.
Mark DeRosa is playing exactly the same amount of professional baseball as his adopted father, these days.
If the Giants traded Bowker for $75,000, then paid me off with $20,000 to pretend I loved the move, they would have gotten some of the PR value that I can provide to my dozens of readers. They would have been better off.
by Grant Brisbee on Jul 31, 2010 3:09 PM PDT up reply actions
I'd still be mad that someone killed my dog
"Being a McCoven is like being a member of the Green party. It’s powerlessness is part of the appeal." - oldjacket
"Quiet you, I'm starting a meme." - Me
"You can shake a dozen glove men out of a tree, but the bat separates the men from the boys." - Washington Senators First baseman Dale Long
Proud papa to: Bill Schlough, Senior Vice President and Chief Information Officer, aka the IT guy.
BUY BRIAN SABEAN'S PRODUCTS AND/OR SERVICES!
Dearest, Susan - The Patron Saint of Patience
by Lars The Wanderer on Jul 31, 2010 3:09 PM PDT up reply actions
tell them you'd need $20,000 not to sell your readers $10,000 in stabbing knives
you can send them this thread to show them you’re serious
Mark DeRosa is playing exactly the same amount of professional baseball as his adopted father, these days.
But how does your boss feel about the trade?
The Magic is inside all of us.
Proud father of the man taking your hard-earned money.
by ResDog on Jul 31, 2010 4:26 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions
Bowker rookie year: 328 ABs, 10 HR, 43 RBI, .255/.300/.408
Rowand this year: 271 ABs, 9 HR, 31 RBI, .247/.293/.402 … Now what?
by Fire Sabean on Jul 31, 2010 3:10 PM PDT reply actions 1 recs
HAD HIS CHANCE
Proud Adoptive Parent of Jesus Guzman, RHP. 2010 Line: 0 H, 2 BB, 0.00 ERA. CALL HIM UP!
Bochy: What’s this fancy stat here?
IT Guy: That’s how often they get on base. I do not know why you keep asking me, I am here to fix your server.
John Bowker, 2011 All-Star
by North Side Chicago Expatriate Giants Fan on Jul 31, 2010 3:16 PM PDT reply actions
Well
Now we hope that we get Dunn on Waivers?
Proud Adoptive Parent of Jesus Guzman, RHP. 2010 Line: 0 H, 2 BB, 0.00 ERA. CALL HIM UP!
Bochy: What’s this fancy stat here?
IT Guy: That’s how often they get on base. I do not know why you keep asking me, I am here to fix your server.
This made me laugh!
Excellent!
Dearest, Susan - The Patron Saint of Patience
by Lars The Wanderer on Jul 31, 2010 3:28 PM PDT up reply actions
Would anyone be surprised if Bowker flourishes in Pitt?
Huge power,short porch in RF. He could be the ivory to Milledge, McCutchen’s ebony making the best up and coming inter racial OF in baseball
AAA pitchers can't throw curveballs?
Read my Cal blog: http://since59.blogspot.com/ Go Bears!
Ryan Verdugo, my adopted son, is currently boasting a 10.8 K/9 for the San Jose Giants. CALL HIM UP!
Didn't you hear?
They were outlawed in the PCL
Proud Adoptive Parent of Jesus Guzman, RHP. 2010 Line: 0 H, 2 BB, 0.00 ERA. CALL HIM UP!
Bochy: What’s this fancy stat here?
IT Guy: That’s how often they get on base. I do not know why you keep asking me, I am here to fix your server.
I wasn't informed
THAT EXPLAINS IT ALL!!!
Read my Cal blog: http://since59.blogspot.com/ Go Bears!
Ryan Verdugo, my adopted son, is currently boasting a 10.8 K/9 for the San Jose Giants. CALL HIM UP!
Next year… I say we get a group of people to go down near Sabean’s office and wave bright shiny things at the windows.
who needs a power lefty
when you got pat burrelll baby WOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!
I'm not a huge believer in Bowker
But JAVIER LOPEZ???
Aaron King is still my homeboy... iffy mechanics and all
McFAQ for all you newcomers out there.
concurred.
Mark DeRosa is playing exactly the same amount of professional baseball as his adopted father, these days.
LOL US
Dearest, Susan - The Patron Saint of Patience
by Lars The Wanderer on Jul 31, 2010 3:54 PM PDT up reply actions
yeah,
yeah…
Proud Adoptive Parent of Jesus Guzman, RHP. 2010 Line: 0 H, 2 BB, 0.00 ERA. CALL HIM UP!
Bochy: What’s this fancy stat here?
IT Guy: That’s how often they get on base. I do not know why you keep asking me, I am here to fix your server.
godammit
no more bowkermania =(
him and nate are the ones i really wanted to succeed on the giants….
o well…..i hope he does well, that goes for joey too, damn….
no more YEAH JOEY……..fuck…..
slowly dying, one giants game at a time
I mean, I understand we need a LOOGY for some context-specific situations
(because the game is not played in a context-neutral, WAR setting)
And come playoff time, a LOOGY’s value becomes higher.
But JAVIER LOPEZ????
Aaron King is still my homeboy... iffy mechanics and all
McFAQ for all you newcomers out there.
I hope Bowker tears it up.
Fuck Sabean for this one.
by AmorVincitOmnia on Jul 31, 2010 4:06 PM PDT reply actions
WARNING: Extreme SSS coming up
Joe Martinez vs lefties this year: .176 BAA, .300 OBP, .535 OPS
Javier Lopez vs. lefties this year: .204 BAA, .323 OBP, .675 OPS
I know Martinez gets bombed by lefties normally, but still! Also, Javier Lopez in the month of July: .941 OPS against him. Wow.
Read my Cal blog: http://since59.blogspot.com/ Go Bears!
Ryan Verdugo, my adopted son, is currently boasting a 10.8 K/9 for the San Jose Giants. CALL HIM UP!
BUT STILL!
The Giants usually look at these retarded SSS stats to form their opinions. Why couldn’t they have done so here?
by AmorVincitOmnia on Jul 31, 2010 4:50 PM PDT up reply actions
Oh Brian, you always know just what to do when I’m close to not thinking you should be fired.
GROUGTHINK ALERT
"You all are just blinded to reality by your hatred of Armando just as the Bonds haters are." -grm
Seriously
I mean he gets rid of Bengie, gets an intriguing pitching prospect (Main) gets Burrell for nothing… I guess that one trade was just SSS
Proud father of Mike Krukow (who is more than 3 times my age)
Grab Some Pine, Meat
Still cheering for Kevin Frandsen
John Bowker: One of the 3 best OF's on the Giants roster
Paving the way for the critical hit.
Proud Adoptive Parent of Jesus Guzman, RHP. 2010 Line: 0 H, 2 BB, 0.00 ERA. CALL HIM UP!
Bochy: What’s this fancy stat here?
IT Guy: That’s how often they get on base. I do not know why you keep asking me, I am here to fix your server.
Sabean needs to burn for this crap
Timmy is my Man-crush
My first iPhone comment
What the fuck
The Magic is inside all of us.
Proud father of the man taking your hard-earned money.
by ResDog on Jul 31, 2010 4:16 PM PDT via mobile reply actions
...congrats?
Proud Adoptive Parent of Jesus Guzman, RHP. 2010 Line: 0 H, 2 BB, 0.00 ERA. CALL HIM UP!
Bochy: What’s this fancy stat here?
IT Guy: That’s how often they get on base. I do not know why you keep asking me, I am here to fix your server.
News on MLB network: “Giants trade Joseph Martinez and John Bowker for…”
At this point I’m thinking “Wemust have got someone pretty decent!”
“…for Javier Lopez from Pittsburgh.”
What the hell!
The Magic is inside all of us.
Proud father of the man taking your hard-earned money.
by ResDog on Jul 31, 2010 4:21 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions
I really thought we had gotten a hitter for those two. At least a rental bat.
The Magic is inside all of us.
Proud father of the man taking your hard-earned money.
by ResDog on Jul 31, 2010 4:31 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions
Overstate much?
Come on, everyone. I agree that we probably could have received a little more for these two guys, but how much, really?
Martinez is not a high-ceiling guy. He’s likable, and we all pulled for him to come back from that smash he endured.
Bowker is a 27-year-old who looks like Mark Leonard/JR Phillips at worst, and perhaps he may turn into… I dunno… Armando Rios at best. He has frequently looked helpless against major league breaking pitching, IMHO. I don’t see a trend of improvement in his major league plate appearances over the last three seasons, either.
I’m not for trading for the sake of trading. I also don’t want to fire up the Sabean effigy for the sake of firing up the Sabean effigy.
Lopez is OK. As commodities, the two players the Giants traded probably could’ve netted a bit more, but not much.
There is enough evidence on this thread to show:
1) Lopez is worse then OK
2) Only one of these players should have been enough to land him.
Proud Adoptive Parent of Jesus Guzman, RHP. 2010 Line: 0 H, 2 BB, 0.00 ERA. CALL HIM UP!
Bochy: What’s this fancy stat here?
IT Guy: That’s how often they get on base. I do not know why you keep asking me, I am here to fix your server.
I think "worse than OK" is somewhat subjective,
I didn’t like that Bowker was included, but I’m not foaming at the mouth, either.
1) He’s not a world-beater, but he has been effective enough to play a significant role on contending teams in multiple seasons, including the 2007 world champions. Plus, his salary is reasonable.
2) I agree, particularly in Bowker’s case. As I said, just as trading pieces or “commodities”, they seemed more valuable. But how much more? What did everyone expect we could get for Bowker if we just traded Martinez for Lopez? To GMs of other big league teams, he’s just another guy who mashes in the PCL, and has a career .678 OPS in the majors.
how about
“not a significant improvement on Geno Espineli”?
Sharlon Schoop - de favoriete Nederlandse honkbalspeler van McCovey Chronicles.
You always have to be one step ahead of your drunk friends
--Daisy Owl
I assume you're trying to be funny.
A guy whose MLB experience amounts to about 15 ineffective innings? You expect him to even perform at “replacement level” down the stretch, under pressure?
And you expect a pitcher who has a long history of failing to perform at replacement level and who isn’t even currently performing at replacement level if you look past his ERA to even perform at replacement level down the stretch? Under pressure? Or ever?
"I just struck out looking three times, but in any other ballpark those would have been home runs." - Aubrey Huff
by howtheyscored on Jul 31, 2010 5:01 PM PDT up reply actions
All this vitriol and negative energy...
Over Bowker? Really Well, at least I am laughing instead of grumbling.
I’m usually right there with other Giants fans’ negativity levels. This time, it seems as though everyone’s anger-meter is at an 8, while mine is about a 2.
All I’m saying is, “big deal.” They wanted (and needed) a veteran lefty specialist. They traded away two guys to get one.
It’d be a stretch to say either of the guys the Giants lost had any likelihood of playing a key role on a championship team.
I still don’t really like the deal, but I’m willing to give Lopez a shot. Too bad he was shitty in the World Series for the BoSox… that makes me less comfortable.
…and define “long history”. His WAR was positive in ’07, ’08, and 2010, and he only pitched a few innings in ’09. Hey, he could be Jim Poole ’97 (crap), or he could be Scott Eyre (decent).
They wanted (and needed) a veteran lefty specialist. They traded away two guys to get one.
The anger stems from trading two guys when only one should have been more than enough.
But if it’s your thing to be cool with terrible trades then have fun with it, but you do not need to tell us that it’s no big deal.
Proud Adoptive Parent of Jesus Guzman, RHP. 2010 Line: 0 H, 2 BB, 0.00 ERA. CALL HIM UP!
Bochy: What’s this fancy stat here?
IT Guy: That’s how often they get on base. I do not know why you keep asking me, I am here to fix your server.
That makes no sense...
Do you think Sabean just decided to give up an extra player just for the heck of it?
See:
Fred Lewis
Kevin Frandsen
John Bowker
Apparently.
Proud Adoptive Parent of Jesus Guzman, RHP. 2010 Line: 0 H, 2 BB, 0.00 ERA. CALL HIM UP!
Bochy: What’s this fancy stat here?
IT Guy: That’s how often they get on base. I do not know why you keep asking me, I am here to fix your server.
Do you believe that Brian Sabean is a competent GM?
"You can always recover from the player you didn't sign. You may never recover from the player you signed at the wrong price." --Billy Beane
"I am not an idiot."--Brian Sabean
by Sabean's_Folly on Jul 31, 2010 7:41 PM PDT up reply actions
My anger isn’t at an 8, but it was a clear overpay to package Martinez with Bowker, especially when you see what it took to get Ramirez later in the day – a guy who is actually a better pitcher than Lopez. That’s really it. They overpaid. I’ll be happy to give Lopez a chance, but I won’t ignore that they gave up more value than they got.
"I just struck out looking three times, but in any other ballpark those would have been home runs." - Aubrey Huff
by howtheyscored on Jul 31, 2010 6:06 PM PDT up reply actions
Better v. worse….
"I just struck out looking three times, but in any other ballpark those would have been home runs." - Aubrey Huff
by howtheyscored on Jul 31, 2010 8:46 PM PDT up reply actions
borrowed from STR
Sharlon Schoop - de favoriete Nederlandse honkbalspeler van McCovey Chronicles.
You always have to be one step ahead of your drunk friends
--Daisy Owl
Oh I need to steal this.
Proud Adoptive Parent of Jesus Guzman, RHP. 2010 Line: 0 H, 2 BB, 0.00 ERA. CALL HIM UP!
Bochy: What’s this fancy stat here?
IT Guy: That’s how often they get on base. I do not know why you keep asking me, I am here to fix your server.
This is great
Proud father of Mike Krukow (who is more than 3 times my age)
Grab Some Pine, Meat
Still cheering for Kevin Frandsen
John Bowker: One of the 3 best OF's on the Giants roster
The thing is
he hasn’t gotten like any plate appearances in the last 3 seasons.
And calling Lopez ok might be a stretch. He’s replacement level.
Read my Cal blog: http://since59.blogspot.com/ Go Bears!
Ryan Verdugo, my adopted son, is currently boasting a 10.8 K/9 for the San Jose Giants. CALL HIM UP!
Your first comments are to defend this crap? Boooooo.
Lopez isn’t as good as his ERA. He can’t really strike anyone out, and he walks too many hitters.
Bowker might be Leonard or Phillips — noting, of course, that his PCL numbers were better — but he could also be Nelson Cruz or Luke Scott. Both of those players looked like crap at the start of their careers too. Don’t set Rios as the ceiling. Look at Scott’s numbers up there compared to Bowker’s. Sometimes players take a developmental leap forward.
I don’t mind trading Bowker. I mind getting fifteen innings of a Chad Zerbe clone for Bowker.
by Grant Brisbee on Jul 31, 2010 5:05 PM PDT up reply actions
HEY! YOU LEAVE CHAD ALONE!
Utter frustration and futility.
Adopted 'nephew' to the ever avuncular and always awesome Jon Miller
by Johnny Disaster on Jul 31, 2010 5:15 PM PDT up reply actions
The only way I’m ok with this trade is if Lopez wins a World Series game for the Giants.
THE GREATEST OF ALL TIME (for 3 days in 1995).
by Mike Benjamin Hit King on Jul 31, 2010 5:33 PM PDT up reply actions
And I just told “Stoned Slacker” to fuck himself, so, yes. Often.
Of course, you wouldn’t know who that was unless I gave you more hints, I’m sure.
by Grant Brisbee on Jul 31, 2010 5:40 PM PDT up reply actions
You really are new here.
Were you a lurker before?
Proud Adoptive Parent of Jesus Guzman, RHP. 2010 Line: 0 H, 2 BB, 0.00 ERA. CALL HIM UP!
Bochy: What’s this fancy stat here?
IT Guy: That’s how often they get on base. I do not know why you keep asking me, I am here to fix your server.
I'm not exactly new, but I almost never post.
I’ve been reading Grant’s blogs on and off since the dark days… not sure exactly when it started. ’05 at the latest Grant and I have been good friends since he was four years old, and I was 6.
They don’t even have to involve juice. I’ll take milk, or maybe even syrup.
"I just struck out looking three times, but in any other ballpark those would have been home runs." - Aubrey Huff
by howtheyscored on Aug 1, 2010 12:26 AM PDT up reply actions
Fruit and/or vegetables are also acceptable.
Utter frustration and futility.
Adopted 'nephew' to the ever avuncular and always awesome Jon Miller
by Johnny Disaster on Aug 1, 2010 12:31 AM PDT up reply actions
Oh so many...
But I’m waiting to close a book deal.
Seriously, Grant’s always been very entertaining. In elementary school, he managed to convince all his peers that there was a secret passageway to McDonald’s underneath his house. I’m not talking about the stupid kids, either. I mean everyone. There’s something about the way he explains things to you… If you don’t perceive it with your own eyes, you generally believe what he’s telling you, even if it seems totally far-fetched… At least you believe him at first, until you get to know him.
…And by “at first,” in my case, I mean from 1981 until about 2006. In ‘06. I got drunk at his engagement party, and I blacked out. Later, he managed to convince me that I was blatantly hitting on his mom before I eventually passed out. I was mortified. Grant recounted the events in great detail, stone-faced. He really seemed to feel sorry for me, and also seemed a little angry. I think his wife was in on the whole bit, too. It was only days later that Grant’s mom confirmed I had NOT tried to put the moves on her. She also laughed at me for being enough of an idiot to believe her son after 25 years of bullshitting.
Of course, he thought the whole thing was hi-larious.
That’s my warning to all of you. He’s probably fucking with you at this very moment.
PS
I went straight for the WAR, and also checked on post season/contention experience. Let’s face it, under these circumstances, it means something, despite what our stat-head impulses tell us.
We’re seriously talking about 15 or 20 innings. Anything can happen. He could put up fluky Evan Meek numbers. He could give up hits by the bushel. But that’s the point — that’s why you don’t give up a lot for LOOGYs. It’s too variable. You acquire the best players to give you the best shot, but I don’t think the difference between Javier Lopez and Nate Robertson or Andrew Sisco or Geno Espeneli for a handful of innings is worth five years of Bowker, even if there’s only a small chance he becomes more than a fifth outfielder.
by Grant Brisbee on Jul 31, 2010 5:48 PM PDT up reply actions
But...
That’s 15 or 20 innings if they don’t make the playoffs. Of the four players you mentioned, if you had to choose, who would be the least likely to implode down the stretch?
Lopez. But I’m trying to search for the right analogy. The Giants just paid for $10,000 of earthquake insurance for the next three months when they could have had a policy for $10. If there’s an earthquake — as in, Lopez is the difference between a playoff spot or not, or if Lopez is the difference between advancing in a playoff series or not — well, the deal looks pretty sweet.
I just don’t think the odds are good that this will pay off in a way that would give the Giants a playoff berth that they wouldn’t have already earned. Certainly not in a way that would justify Bowker.
by Grant Brisbee on Jul 31, 2010 6:08 PM PDT up reply actions
It'd be more than pretty sweet if the Giants got deep into the playoffs...
Whether Lopez contributed or not.
Do people really think that Sabean’s first offer was Bowker AND Martinez? Is there any proof of that? I’d bet that it went down like this: the lefties on the market were running out, Sabean offered Martinez for Lopez, and the Bucs said no. Seeing he didn’t have any alternatives other than staying put, Sabean said, “ok, Bowker.” There was some desperation there, sure. Maybe he could’ve parted with Velez (?), but no one knows.
If someone proves Sabes’ first offer was both of those guys for Lopez, I will be a bit more upset fo’ sho’. That would be terrible negotiating.
But my point is I’m not that mad because of the very fact you just validated. As a “manager” (or general manager), you must maximize your team’s chances of success. It means being educated, playing the odds, and putting the right people in the right roles at the right time. Can we agree the Giants have identified an opportunity to be truly successful (now)? Can we also understand that they want to minimize their chances of a very visible failure of the player in a not-always-so-visible role (LHRP)?
So what was wrong with staying put?
Proud Adoptive Parent of Jesus Guzman, RHP. 2010 Line: 0 H, 2 BB, 0.00 ERA. CALL HIM UP!
Bochy: What’s this fancy stat here?
IT Guy: That’s how often they get on base. I do not know why you keep asking me, I am here to fix your server.
Ding ding ding! We have a winner!
"You can always recover from the player you didn't sign. You may never recover from the player you signed at the wrong price." --Billy Beane
"I am not an idiot."--Brian Sabean
by Sabean's_Folly on Jul 31, 2010 7:52 PM PDT up reply actions
Personally, I look at it this way:
It’s July 31st.. The Giants are in first place in the wild card race. All of us can point to (at least) one glaring, frightening weakness: the inconsistency of their bullpen. It’s been exposed a few times this week.
Let’s pretend Sabean did nothing. Here’s a hypothetical. Two weeks from now, the Giants are playing the Padres. It’s the 6th inning, and the Giants are up by a run after a shaky performance by one of their starters. Casilla walks two batters, and Adrian Gonzalez steps up. Bochy has three options: Martinez, Mota, or a rusty Runzler. He brings in pitcher X, who promptly gives up a line drive into the gap.
…or say something similar happens later in the season… or POST season.
Shortly after, we realize that a number of lefties moved on July 31st, and none of them came here. We realize we could have added one without upsetting any balance, formula, or “chemistry” on the big league club.
Maybe there weren’t a ton of options, but there were at least a couple, like Lopez.
Maybe he would’ve given up that hit, too, but we’d never know.
Just hypothetically, would we be roasting Sabean then? I certainly would. I would be REALLY pissed… I’d see the Giants’ unwillingness to part with “quasi-talent” in that situation as something equivalent to them being unwilling to spend their loads of money (which they clearly make every year) on better players. If he had an opportunity to at least try to fill an obvious gap, and he didn’t do it, I’d call it irresponsible.
I care about Belt. I care about Posey. I care about Bumgarner. Even a possible championship isn’t worth sacrificing potential greatness.
In situations like the Giants current playoff push, I view players like Bowker and Martinez as currency, as cold as it sounds.
The problem with your hypothetical, or any
Is that it works both ways.
What if Lopez is called in that situtation (who’s career lefty splits are not so good) and he gives up a line drive.
What if this, what if that….
Also, I view Bowker and Martinez as currency too. However, Sabean seems to think they are a post WWI German Mark (sp?)
Proud Adoptive Parent of Jesus Guzman, RHP. 2010 Line: 0 H, 2 BB, 0.00 ERA. CALL HIM UP!
Bochy: What’s this fancy stat here?
IT Guy: That’s how often they get on base. I do not know why you keep asking me, I am here to fix your server.
I'd be comforted...
by the fact they did what it took to minimize the chances of that happening, even if it happened.
I think we’ve all grown accustomed to looking toward the future, which is generally a good thing. … BUT, We’re all acting as if another hypothetical (the success of Bowker and/or Martinez) seems much more likely than the one I laid out…. And I really, really don’t believe that’s the case.
And I’m not even saying that Lopez will pan out in that situation. I’m just saying I like his chances better than any of our other available relievers.
That’s why I’m not so pissed. I still agree he totally overpaid. I just don’t see why this is something we should instantly regret.
There is evidence to show that Bowker and Martinez (not as much here)
could have been a success here.
And if you agree he overpaid, why do you not think it is instantly regrettable?
Proud Adoptive Parent of Jesus Guzman, RHP. 2010 Line: 0 H, 2 BB, 0.00 ERA. CALL HIM UP!
Bochy: What’s this fancy stat here?
IT Guy: That’s how often they get on base. I do not know why you keep asking me, I am here to fix your server.
I will forgo an instant regret, but I reserve the right to a retroactive regret should the Giants not win the World Series.
by Grant Brisbee on Aug 1, 2010 2:29 AM PDT up reply actions
My stance...
I’d say if all of the following are true:
1) Javier Lopez makes no contribution to the Giants’ success this season
2) J. Bowker or J. Martinez make a significant contribution (above replacement level) to a major league team in regular playing time during any one season in the next several years
…then this trade will bother me more. Right now, it’s merely a little burning sensation.
I see it as them trying to manage a weakness. If it makes them a little better in the late innings during these (and upcoming) crucial games, I’ll take the no-Bowker-and-Martinez pill (even if the effect on the bullpen is merely psychological). During a pennant drive, when it comes to giving up scrubs who “might” have “some” value “some day”, I’m somewhat more lenient.
Yes, I view Bowker as a scrub. Yes, I am aware of his stats. Yes, I can parse and understand what the stats mean. I’ve also seen hundreds of his ML at bats with my own two eyes, either in person or on video.
And why dismiss the comparisons to Leonard and Philips? Leonard, in particular, had a fairly similar season at age 25 to Bowker: http://www.baseball-reference.com/minors/player.cgi?id=leonar001mar
Q: What is the minimum Lopez has to accomplish (individually) this season to make this trade more palatable to you? Do the Giants really have to win the series?
Sorry...I just can't agree with you
Joe Martinez = Right handed Lopez…Left handed pitchers are worth more…Bowker was the more…Sabean got a “better” RHP in R. Martinez for less…which means LHP was a premium…
The Luke Scott comparison is hard to take because you are cherry picking…there are plenty of guys who never made it in the majors but were great in AAA (especially in PCL)…
Left handed pitchers are worth more
Not really. Joe Martinez making the minimum for three years is probably worth more than a fringe lefty eligible for arbitration. But I’ll pay that price.
The Luke Scott comparison is hard to take because you are cherry picking…there are plenty of guys who never made it in the majors but were great in AAA (especially in PCL)…
Well, I didn’t say he’s going to be as good as Scott or Nelson Cruz. But there’s a decent chance. Guys with 1.000 OPS in AAA and a K/BB ratio close to 1:1 are much rarer than you think. You’re confusing Bowker with the Dallas McPherson/Brandon Wood types, who put up flashy numbers while hardly walking and striking out too much.
by Grant Brisbee on Jul 31, 2010 5:52 PM PDT up reply actions
OMFG
JeffFletcherAOL
Brian Sabean said the #sfgiants were in “a negative leverage situation” because everyone knew they were desperate for a LH reliever.
Proud Adoptive Parent of Jesus Guzman, RHP. 2010 Line: 0 H, 2 BB, 0.00 ERA. CALL HIM UP!
Bochy: What’s this fancy stat here?
IT Guy: That’s how often they get on base. I do not know why you keep asking me, I am here to fix your server.
/sigh
The Magic is inside all of us.
Proud father of the man taking your hard-earned money.
by ResDog on Jul 31, 2010 4:44 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions
THEN DON'T MAKE ONE SABES
Proud father of 2-time Cy Young Award winner Tim Lincecum
"Failure is not fatal, but failure to change might be." - John Wooden
Brian Sabean is in a "negative leverage situation" when it comes to IQ.
What a fucking assclown of a GM, and by extension, what a fucking assembly of assclowns the Giants FO is loaded with.
Wow! A douchebag lefty worth a bucket of spit for Bowker and Martinez.
The league must be laughing up their collective sleeves at this dumb excuse for a GM.
I hope they both come back to haunt the Giants. Fuck you Sabean, you mental midget.
"You can always recover from the player you didn't sign. You may never recover from the player you signed at the wrong price." --Billy Beane
"I am not an idiot."--Brian Sabean
Yeah what a fucking idiot
I’ve been reading this site religously for four years and I don’t think there was a single poster calling for Andres Torres to be given Bowker’s job or for the Gs to sign Aubrey Huff and (god forbid!!!) start him in RF(!!!) over Nate (over Nate?!!?).
But that’s the beauty if the Internet. We can all call Sabean a fucking idiot whenever the mood strikes us, yet not feel the obligation to admit how wrong we may have been and how well Sabean has done with players like Torres, Huff, Uribe, Burrell, etc. Not to mention the fact that four of five starters are homegrown, as well as our setup and closer. Name another team that can say that, and I’ll show you another dipshit GM that were all smarter than.
Don't play a dangerous game.
by Hul10 on Jul 31, 2010 6:57 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions
There was no way anyone could have predicted Torres would do what he is doing. You would have been called crazy if you had predicted this preseason.
Huff was signed to be a 1B. Was only shifted to the outfield to make room for Posey.
Proud Adoptive Parent of Jesus Guzman, RHP. 2010 Line: 0 H, 2 BB, 0.00 ERA. CALL HIM UP!
Bochy: What’s this fancy stat here?
IT Guy: That’s how often they get on base. I do not know why you keep asking me, I am here to fix your server.
I would not call you crazy (P.S. Sorry for the novel)
Because while you definitely were leading the “We want Torres” Bandwagon, even you were not saying he would be an MVP candidate.
Here is this from you:
http://www.mccoveychronicles.com/2010/4/27/1447583/sabeans-gonna-stay-unless#36530137
http://www.mccoveychronicles.com/2010/4/27/1447583/sabeans-gonna-stay-unless#36530137
I particularly like this one:
http://www.mccoveychronicles.com/2010/4/13/1419073/leading-off-for-the-giants-and#34958678
While you were all for Torres, I see no projections for what he is doing right now that did not come a third into the season or at least after it started.
These are other good ones from last year.
http://www.mccoveychronicles.com/2010/4/13/1419073/leading-off-for-the-giants-and#34958678
And here in your own words:
Torres has not really had a chance yet, so any conjecture on what he could or couldn’t do is just that: conjecture. Why would he be any more unable to keep up his level of play, field and bat, on an everyday basis than any other now-everyday player? What is so supposedly fragile about him?
I don’t claim he’s a lock, but he sure looks good, and good pickings are scarce on the ground right now for this team. Try cooking what’s in the pot before going shopping.
Link
Proud Adoptive Parent of Jesus Guzman, RHP. 2010 Line: 0 H, 2 BB, 0.00 ERA. CALL HIM UP!
Bochy: What’s this fancy stat here?
IT Guy: That’s how often they get on base. I do not know why you keep asking me, I am here to fix your server.
by scout6 on Jul 31, 2010 9:06 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Stupid blockquote
should go down to before “Link”
Proud Adoptive Parent of Jesus Guzman, RHP. 2010 Line: 0 H, 2 BB, 0.00 ERA. CALL HIM UP!
Bochy: What’s this fancy stat here?
IT Guy: That’s how often they get on base. I do not know why you keep asking me, I am here to fix your server.
This is the kind of bullshit response I’m so sick of. Like Sabean didn’t know that Huff could play third base and the corner outfield spots when he signed him. Please. We were the only ones who thought he couldnt play anything but first (and badly at that, right? I mean Huff is a total defensive liability as of January. We just KNEW this to be true. Just like we KNEW that we’d all be fucked if Uribe even started a handful of games at SS heading as of Spring 2009), and once again, we were wrong and the professional baseball executive was correct.
And you know what, just because you didnt think it was possible that Torres could succeed doesn’t mean that the opinion was universally held. In fact, Torres’ production is a result of the execution of a plan, and there were people who were expecting big things from Torres as early as 2008. You just weren’t one of them, and neither was I. luckily for us, Brian Sabean caught on before we did. every other effin team in baseball passed on Torres. Sabean didn’t. Despite all statistical predictions to the contrary, Torres made a major approach and swing change at age 30, and I’m sure the results were quite evident to Sabean and anyone else who was actually watching Torres in person. Sabean made the call here, and he was right. To say it was luck is just about the weakest argument I can imagine. That’s pretty much the only response people can come up with if a non-expected outcome occurs, but you know what, it is entirely possible that Brian Sabean, the longest tenured GM in baseball, actually noticed that Torres was pretty damn good before any of the rest of us. And if he did actually notice this, then he sure made the right moves. But I guess that doesnt fit into your argument so it must just be luck.
Don't play a dangerous game.
You must have one very selective memory, like all Sabean apologists.
Due to time and space constraints I won’t go into the myriad bullshit trades and signings that the worthless buffoon Sabean has completed, not to mention the idiocy of squandering Barry Bonds’ talents for YEARS while he dumpster dived like a madman.
No, Sabean is an utter tool, but like a blind squirrel he does find an occasional nut, but the majority of his time is spent screwing the pooch in new and clever ways, your praise for the ass-clown notwithstanding.
"You can always recover from the player you didn't sign. You may never recover from the player you signed at the wrong price." --Billy Beane
"I am not an idiot."--Brian Sabean
by Sabean's_Folly on Jul 31, 2010 8:29 PM PDT up reply actions
Um, you're actually supporting our side more than yours
By bringing up Huff and Torres, you are admitting that crazy things can happen to players. Sometimes players make strange performance leaps. Sometimes players go back to being good.
Bowker could have done that had he been given a chance. He was not. Now we will see what he does. He might not be anything. But then he might. Now the chance that he does something worthwhile for the Giants is zero. And what did they get in return? Well, that’s been discussed plenty.
The baseball Satanist
I promise that my adopted Giant, one Zach Wheeler, will not shoot anybody.
"I told the family lovingly slide"
By the same token, can't players unexpectedly do WORSE than what we expect?
When they do, that seems to be blamed on the GM
Proudly adopted Aubrey Huff. You can't beat that!
I can only speak for myself
But I don’t blame the GM unless the player has a good chance of being worse than before. Like Bengie Molina, for instance.
The baseball Satanist
I promise that my adopted Giant, one Zach Wheeler, will not shoot anybody.
"I told the family lovingly slide"
Buster For GM!
On a separate note, Bowker’s AAA performance would suggest getting a far better return. And while the scouts might know enough to believe he will never be a decent regular, his AAA stats. suggest enough of a possibility that he could be good that a better trade return should have been sought or demanded.
Also, I don’t follow how someone would say he can’t hit in the majors but then say he might be a DH later in his career. It isn’t his defense that is keeping him in AAA as he would play better there than Burrell.
But he wasn't.
Trade value is marked-dependent…Bowker is worth what the other GMs are willing pay…not what McC posters believe he is worth
If his value is lower than it should be...
DON’T SELL LOW.
It’s really not that hard.
Sabean gave up assets to get guys who will not make this team meaningfully better this year or beyond.
Now that the deadline is over,
Do we worry about when extensions for our new players may be announced?
Proud Adoptive Parent of Jesus Guzman, RHP. 2010 Line: 0 H, 2 BB, 0.00 ERA. CALL HIM UP!
Bochy: What’s this fancy stat here?
IT Guy: That’s how often they get on base. I do not know why you keep asking me, I am here to fix your server.
With Sabean there's ALWAYS worry that he'll screw the pooch early and often.
"You can always recover from the player you didn't sign. You may never recover from the player you signed at the wrong price." --Billy Beane
"I am not an idiot."--Brian Sabean
by Sabean's_Folly on Jul 31, 2010 6:32 PM PDT up reply actions
Player Value:
Andres Torres $18.2 million (2nd in NL)
Aubrey Huff $16.9 million (4th)
Juan Uribe $7.9 million
Total: $43 million
Total salary paid to above players 2010: <$7 million.
That idiot Sabean handed out these deals. He signed Burrell (who is arguably better then Podsednik or Ludwick) for zip. He found Penny last year on waivers. We have two homegrown field player stars in Posey and Sandoval under team control.
Four of our five starters, our setup man and our closer are institutional players drafted/signed and developed by Sabean’s FO.
I like to keep that in mind on days like this. Let’s not get to crazy critical. If I want that shit I’ll read Tim Kawakami. Blech.
Don't play a dangerous game.
by Hul10 on Jul 31, 2010 6:48 PM PDT via mobile reply actions
Link
Sorry. Here’s the source on the player value.
http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=all&stats=bat&lg=nl&qual=y&type=6&season=2010&month=0
Don't play a dangerous game.
by Hul10 on Jul 31, 2010 6:50 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions
Shut up, just shut up.
He only needed to sign those guys because he spent a shit-ton of money on Sanchez, Rowand, Zito, Molina and Renteria, while throwing away Lewis & Frandsen, both of whom have better numbers than their SF counterparts this season, which means right now not in the future, but today. Sabean is the douchiest douche-bag out there and all of the Sabean apologists who point to his good scrap-heap pickups that are only necessary because he can’t make common-sense deals for anyone who makes more than 5 mil per year. Where would the Giants be if they had a 12 million dollar a year guy, who played like an 8 million dollar a year player in the middle of their lineup. Or if they could develop everyday players who weren’t can’t miss prospects that won the Golden Spikes. I don’t think I’ve ever been this pissed about a trade or dumbass decision the Giants dumbass GM has made, what an ass-clown. You’re also forgetting all of the players he took fliers on that didn’t work out, like Todd Walkameyer, guys that pitch every 5th day are kinda important and let’s not forget he’s the same guy who hired a manager who can’t settle on a lineup, hates young players—often derailing their careers, and pinch runs one catcher for another.
Giants best trade option: Bowker for Rowand
by Giant Torture on Jul 31, 2010 7:07 PM PDT up reply actions 4 recs
Rec'd so damned hard
"You can always recover from the player you didn't sign. You may never recover from the player you signed at the wrong price." --Billy Beane
"I am not an idiot."--Brian Sabean
by Sabean's_Folly on Jul 31, 2010 7:57 PM PDT up reply actions
But
…all of the Sabean apologists who point to his good scrap-heap pickups that are only necessary because he can’t make common-sense deals for anyone who makes more than 5 mil per year.
If people didn’t point out the good moves there would only be Sabean haters like you pointing out the bad ones and refusing to give him credit for anything done right. He’s made good moves and bad moves. The practical argument lies in the what the balance is.
Proudly adopted Aubrey Huff. You can't beat that!
Practical? You do know which website you are on, right?
Next thing you know you’ll be talking about “rational” and “reasoned” and other high falutin’ concepts.
Guys
You two should know better. Yes, the people here often freak out when they shouldn’t. Or freak out more than they should.
But there is a LOT of rational and reasoned and practical on this site. It’s one of the reasons why I have stuck around for three years. I’ve never stuck around an online community for that long.
The baseball Satanist
I promise that my adopted Giant, one Zach Wheeler, will not shoot anybody.
"I told the family lovingly slide"
I don't know what humor is
I am a robot. I apologize for not being human.
;)
The baseball Satanist
I promise that my adopted Giant, one Zach Wheeler, will not shoot anybody.
"I told the family lovingly slide"
BURN IT!!!
Utter frustration and futility.
Adopted 'nephew' to the ever avuncular and always awesome Jon Miller
by Johnny Disaster on Aug 1, 2010 12:17 PM PDT up reply actions
I agree to an extent
That was poorly worded due to the level of my pissed-offedness (technical term), what I was really trying to say is that most of Sabean’s good moves are a result of him fixing the massive messes he makes and even then fail to fully make up for the bad move in the first place.
On another note, if there were only Sabean haters out there like me, maybe we wouldn’t have to put up with him much longer and could actually get an average GM.
Giants best trade option: Bowker for Rowand, NOT BOWKER FOR LOPEZ!
Giants Front Office....Torture!
by Giant Torture on Aug 1, 2010 10:04 AM PDT up reply actions
Wow.
Straight to telling ne to shut up and calling me an apologist because I point out a few obvious good moves huh? Well, not everyone can be as smart as you.
It’s too bad that moneyball turned out to be bullshit and that the Mariners would probably send us a brinks truck of Nintendo stock and Jack Z for Sabean about now.
Just ignore the evidence to the contrary and scream in the face of your critics. You’ll go far in life.
Don't play a dangerous game.
by Hul10 on Aug 1, 2010 11:40 AM PDT via mobile up reply actions
FYI: Giants one game out of best record in NL.
Don't play a dangerous game.
by Hul10 on Aug 1, 2010 11:41 AM PDT via mobile up reply actions
lol
Dearest, Susan - The Patron Saint of Patience
by Lars The Wanderer on Aug 1, 2010 12:04 PM PDT up reply actions
Yes, I was having a bad day...
The Giants are a game out of first, in spite of Sabean not because of him. Baseball is a game of the haves and the havenots, the Giants and their near one hundred million dollar payroll fall in to the prior. There’s no reason they shouldn’t contend 8 out 10 years with the resources at their disposal. Also it’s not about smarter or dumber, but if you’ve spent any time on this site you’ll know that trying to take numbers out of context to use them to further your own argument will be met with staunch resistance. Saying that Sabean’s had some good signings while leaving out the awful signings is a half-truth. Those signings were only necessary because they have a 4th OF—who should be a 5th—making 12 million a year and a 4th starter who makes 20 million. They have good young pitchers from half a decade of picking near the top of the draft, because they produced bad teams.
Sorry for telling you to shut up though, no offense meant.
Giants best trade option: Bowker for Rowand, NOT BOWKER FOR LOPEZ!
Giants Front Office....Torture!
by Giant Torture on Aug 1, 2010 3:46 PM PDT up reply actions
I wasn't trying to leave out anything...
I was pointing out a few of the good moves as a counterbalance to all the negativity above.
I’m not a fan of Sabean in particular, but I just feel like we’re to the point where he’s done enough good that it needs to be acknowledged.
I find it a little simplistic to basically say that all the good moves are based on luck or are just to simple to eff up. That’s weak. Sabean and company made the call, and if he’d made a bad call, we’d criticize, so he should get credit when things pan out.
Even with the obvious moves – four teams passed on Buster, nine on Timmy, 11 on MadBum. And I’m sure if you examine a history of Golden Spikes winners you’ll see a large percentage of failure there as well.
The thing we often forget is that there is a tangible, human side to the business. New metrics are a huge breakthrough, but obviously only represent a portion of player analysis. To pretend that you or I just know that Bowker was worth more is to assume that we know better then the longest tenured GM in baseball. There are a lot of other factors involved with every decision that we will probably never know.
Maybe I was just feeling positive because my brother and I drove down from Seattle yesterday and bought third row tix in the LF bleachers. The guy in front of us caught the Burrell homer. After the game, we walked around the perimeter of the stadium and took pictures with the Willie Mac statue. Looking across the cove to the most stunning stadium in sports, on a sunny day where we beat LA in dramatic fashion, I felt pretty good about everything Giants – including the GM who oversaw our move to China Basin, who took our team to what easily couldve been a title in 2002, who traded Daryl Hamilton for Ellis Burks and Armando Rios for Jason Schmidt.
So yes, there’s been some bad moves, and yes, luck is involved. But skill and experience is involved with management as well. And on a day like yesterday, and considering the unprecedented amount of homegrown talent on our roster, I just wasn’t feeling the irrational hate.
Apology accepted and appreciated though. Go Giants. I’m headed to the stadium on foot right now, and I hope we bring in Bautista to fuckin drill Suck It Russell Martin before we DFA his ass later.
Don't play a dangerous game.
by Hul10 on Aug 1, 2010 4:21 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions
The fact that Sabean is the longest tenure GM is a joke...
Most other teams would have fired their GM simply for not winning the World Series after all this time. Also, you’re right he’s done a good job drafting and developing pitchers, but his utter failure with hitters is long and well-documented. He made some moves that worked out well this off-season and some that didn’t. For the most part he’s been adept at picking people up off the scrap-heap, but overall he is a failure. In 14 years, with a payroll that has always been in the top half of the league, the Giants have made it to the playoffs just 4 times and have had a losing record 4 of those years, which were also consecutive. GM’s just don’t keep their job putting up results like that. If you compare those numbers with Cashman, Jocketty or Schierholz, his numbers as a GM look pretty bad. What’s more—and I think this where a lot of the venom comes from—is that the Giants have a truly great pitching staff and there’s definitely the sense that they’re wasting it.
July was a great month for them, but it isn’t sustainable. They need another bat, which only magnifies Sabean’s poor decisions to sign Rowand, DeRosa, Franchez and Molina. Between those 4 guys, he spent roughly 28 million per year, which would land two pretty significant bats to hit in the middle of the lineup. In a perfect world he would have a top 20 bat and a top 50 bat with that money, but even with a mistake or two he should at least have someone who was an All-Star caliber bat, instead of 3 bench players and a 2B that’s equivalent to Kevin Frandsen.
Giants best trade option: Bowker for Rowand, NOT BOWKER FOR LOPEZ!
Giants Front Office....Torture!
by Giant Torture on Aug 2, 2010 5:45 AM PDT up reply actions
I'm not sure this is really true...
Most other teams would have fired their GM simply for not winning the World Series after all this time.
Towers was fired when new ownership took over. Dombrowski hasn’t won a WS with Detroit but still has a job. Hendry and Minaya are still employed. Jocketty was fired by the Cards despite winning the WS. In smaller markets, both Ryan in Minnesota (since retired) and Beane have had long runs but no championships.
It seems to me GMs are most often fired either for failing to put together a contending team (as distinct from a championship team) or because of philosophical differences with ownership (often new ownership, but not necessarily).
"I don’t think I’ve ever heard a louder chorus of boos than when the Dodgers made the third out of the ninth. It was awesome.." - Aubrey Huff
I agree somewhat
But none of those guys you mentioned lasted as long as Sabean, except Towers. What’s more is that Sabean put together a losing team for 4 consecutive years. Also, I think there’s a different expectation with small market teams than there are with large market teams and the Giants definitely fall in to the latter. Someone like Towers can survive because he can always point to his payroll in relationship to other teams. Manaya is on the hot-seat after a much shorter tenure than Sabean, because the Mets shouldn’t lose like they do with their payroll.
Giants best trade option: Bowker for Rowand, NOT BOWKER FOR LOPEZ!
Giants Front Office....Torture!
by Giant Torture on Aug 2, 2010 11:23 AM PDT up reply actions
The Giants WERE a small market team...
When Sabean took over. We didn’t increase revenue and expenditure until we moved. I’d also argue that from a GM’s point of view, getting a team to the World Series is the same as winning the World Series. Prety much all Sabremetricians and old school types agree that all you can do is assemble a team that succeeds over the large sample size of a 162 game season. For the most part, the playoffs are a crapshoot. The fact that a reliever gave up a gopher ball in the 8th inning is really not Sabean’s fault.
So assuming that getting to the WS is all a GM can reasonably do, and also seeing that Sabean has now successfully navigated the Giants out of the post-Bonds losing streak that you mentioned and rebuilt a roster that looks to be in good shape for the next three years at least, it seems entirely unreasonable to advocate for his dismissal or to even say that he’s done a bad job lately.
Listen, I’m not a Sabean fan. It may seem like thats the position I’m taking. I’m not. I’m just saying that you are ignoring evidence that Sabean has done exactly what you have advocated. And when presented with this argument, you just say it was luck, which is bullshit.
Look, the Giants signed a middle of the order outfielder who has outproduced Bay, Hanley Ramirez, Chase Utley and a ton of others for $3million. If I’d told you that was to happen before free agency, how happy would you’ve been?
Look, the Giants finally benched Rowand in favor of a top three center fielder who hits with power, steals bases, has a high OBP, plays gold glove defense and is under team control for three more years at barely over $1 million per season.
Wow, Sabean got a starting SS for $3 million/season who has outperformed pretty much every SS in the league and is a clubhouse leader and fan favorite.
These moves may have seemed like fantasy a year or two ago…but the ACTUALLY HAPPENED. It’s time to give credit where it is due.
And even your position player gripe is starting to look flawed with the emergence of Posey and Sandoval…
How can you simply disregard these moves? When you do, it seems like you just PREFER to be negative.Let’s bitch when we’re under .500 and get sweeped by the Dodgers. Let’s enjoy the good moves and give credit where it is due while we have the rare opportunity. Look around the league at the rosters and fansites of most of the other franchises (I live in Seattle) and you’ll see legitimate cause for concern.
Don't play a dangerous game.
I wasn't trying to leave out anything...
I was pointing out a few of the good moves as a counterbalance to all the negativity above.
I’m not a fan of Sabean in particular, but I just feel like we’re to the point where he’s done enough good that it needs to be acknowledged.
I find it a little simplistic to basically say that all the good moves are based on luck or are just to simple to eff up. That’s weak. Sabean and company made the call, and if he’d made a bad call, we’d criticize, so he should get credit when things pan out.
Even with the obvious moves – four teams passed on Buster, nine on Timmy, 11 on MadBum. And I’m sure if you examine a history of Golden Spikes winners you’ll see a large percentage of failure there as well.
The thing we often forget is that there is a tangible, human side to the business. New metrics are a huge breakthrough, but obviously only represent a portion of player analysis. To pretend that you or I just know that Bowker was worth more is to assume that we know better then the longest tenured GM in baseball. There are a lot of other factors involved with every decision that we will probably never know.
Maybe I was just feeling positive because my brother and I drove down from Seattle yesterday and bought third row tix in the LF bleachers. The guy in front of us caught the Burrell homer. After the game, we walked around the perimeter of the stadium and took pictures with the Willie Mac statue. Looking across the cove to the most stunning stadium in sports, on a sunny day where we beat LA in dramatic fashion, I felt pretty good about everything Giants – including the GM who oversaw our move to China Basin, who took our team to what easily couldve been a title in 2002, who traded Daryl Hamilton for Ellis Burks and Armando Rios for Jason Schmidt.
So yes, there’s been some bad moves, and yes, luck is involved. But skill and experience is involved with management as well. And on a day like yesterday, and considering the unprecedented amount of homegrown talent on our roster, I just wasn’t feeling the irrational hate.
Apology accepted and appreciated though. Go Giants. I’m headed to the stadium on foot right now, and I hope we bring in Bautista to fuckin drill Suck It Russell Martin before we DFA his ass later.
Don't play a dangerous game.
by Hul10 on Aug 1, 2010 4:21 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions
Have you read Moneyball?
If so, do you fully comprehend the real message of it?
Aaron King is still my homeboy... iffy mechanics and all
McFAQ for all you newcomers out there.
No, I haven't read Moneyball, please help me
I don’t know how to read. I was hoping someone like you could tell me what it means. That’s why I come here.
Could you be a little more arrogant and condescending? What kind of douchebag comments on a book he hasn’t read?
I mean, who the fuck are you to ask me if I fully comprehend a book, especially considering you don’t even bother to support your statement? Are you the local deity of reading comprehension? Do I need to bow to your credentials before I make an argument that isn’t universally accepted by you and whoever’s thoughts you regurgitate?
If you have something to say, say it. Whether you agree or disagree with me I was advancing an argument directly related to the topic of this thread, and I don’t think it’s so fucking far fetched that the immediate reaction of other posters should be to question whether I can read or to tell me to shut up. Or is that just the kind of discussion you prefer? The type where you parrot the group think and try to pseudo-cleverly put down anyone you perceive to be new to the community or an outsider?
But let’s pretend you weren’t being an asshole and actually were interested in discussing the relevancy of my post, and while were at it, let’s get crazy and pretend you actually read the book. Consider this: what part of the book is not bullshit?
I mean, it’s a great story and all, but did I miss Jeremy Brown getting back into baseball or something? Has Billy Beane continued to exploit the market with cunning and an army of sabremetricians? Because I’m pretty sure Michael Lewis closes with Brown blasting a home run into the twilight, signifying the new era of parity and the triumph of statistical analysis and undervalued markets over the big spending clubs and the horse trading scouts. A pretty bullshit ending in retrospect.
Moneyball is a great yarn, which is why the ultimate jeans-seller Brad Pitt is taking millions to portray Billy Beane. But I think its pretty obvious that the book is bullshit if taken seriously. The supposed message is that Billy Beane had figured out some way to recognize undervalued sectors of the player market and had some big edge on everybody. But a decade later its pretty obvious that the only thing Beane was benefiting from was great starting pitching. That’s about it. The A’s had four of the top 12 starters in the American League. Re-read Moneyball. Just how often does Lewis mention Zito, Mulder, Hudson or even Lidle in comparison to, say, Scott Hatteberg.The story is not a reflection of what really happened. Hatteburg was OK. In the book, he’s the symbol of why the A’s won. On the field, he was a bit part compared to any of the four starting pitchers, who just don’t really fit into Lewis’ story, so they were basically omitted.
Further, Beane and just about every other Moneyball-linked guy (save for Epstein, who isn’t really moneyball at all…) have fallen flat on their faces: Depodesta, Riccardi, Beane.
Even the tangentially-moneyball types have failed. Look at all the people here and elsewhere who were trumpeting the brilliance of Jack Z in Seattle as he maneuvered through the off season, collecting speed and defense at the expense of power and chemistry. Jack Z’s statisitical brilliance will cost Don Wakamatsu his job, and Z isn’t far behind at this pace. Why? Because moneyball is at least partially bullshit. His OBP may be sterling, but the fact that Milton Bradley is batshit crazy doesnt show up in any sort of empirical analysis. Erik Bedard has great peripheral numbers but he’s an asshole, his teammates want to string him up and he hates playing baseball. Jose Lopez, like Freddy Garcia before him, is too hung over to play at least three times a week. Measure that. Chone Figgins was supposed to be a huge improvement, but he hates the manager and has tanked. These are some of the examples of moneyball’s failings that I can think of off the top of my head. They don’t prove or disprove anything on the whole, but I think it is indicative of a larger trend.
So there you go. An answer to your snarky putdown.
Finally, I just have to say that I think the holier-than-thou attitude occasionally exhibited here is fucking appalling. It serves to stifle conversation and to prevent people with differing opinions from taking part.
I mean, I haven’t written a FAQ (edit: I see you didn’t write it either. lol. perfect) to help the unwashed masses assimilate the self evident truths, but I’ve actually been a member of this community just as long as you have. I’ve avoided posting unless I felt I had something concise to offer because I always felt that some asshole would pretty much act just like you as soon as I said something that didn’t fit the ethos.
I can only wonder how many other people read the site for Grant’s spectacular writing but avoiding taking part in the community because of comments like yours. I bet it’s a lot. So go fuck yourself. Do you fully comprehend the message of that? Would you like me to read it to you?
Don't play a dangerous game.
by Hul10 on Aug 1, 2010 11:42 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Lol. I just feel like if we can’t enjoy Giants baseball and point out some of the good things going on when we’re busy sweeping the Dodgers and charging towards the best record in the NL….then when the hell are we ever going to enjoy anything?
Don't play a dangerous game.
When they win the World Series
Hopefully this will happen before I die.
Giants best trade option: Bowker for Rowand, NOT BOWKER FOR LOPEZ!
Giants Front Office....Torture!
by Giant Torture on Aug 2, 2010 5:27 AM PDT up reply actions
If you can't enjoy baseball...
…unless your team wins the World Series, then you should probably root for the Yankees or find another sport to watch. My Father was bnorn in 1952 and has been a lifelong Giants fan. He is still able to find some fun in the sport.
But I wouldnt build your whole life and definition of happiness around a seven game crapshot. Enjoy today man!
Don't play a dangerous game.
Sabean makes some good decisions
But his bad decisions are so terrible that he needs to strike gold that frequently to even get close to breaking even.
Heck, he got saved by guys like Gary Matthews Jr turning down terrible contracts as well.
Check
Because of a few lucky/good moves he can’t be criticized for doing something obviously, objectively stupid and worthless.
Juan "Doesn't Cheat The Game" Perez, please keep hitting.
Now how about the value of the people who are on the opposite side of that line?
"I just struck out looking three times, but in any other ballpark those would have been home runs." - Aubrey Huff
by howtheyscored on Jul 31, 2010 8:50 PM PDT up reply actions
Scott
salary – $12M. Value in ’10 so far – $2.9M
Edgar
salary – $9M. Value in ’10 so far – $4.1M
Franchez
salary – $6M. Value in ’10 so far – $1.3M
Bengie
salary – $4.5M. Value in ’10 for the giants – $1.1M + Ray + Main
DeRosa
salary – $6M. Value in ’10 for the giants – $-1.4M
Sharlon Schoop - de favoriete Nederlandse honkbalspeler van McCovey Chronicles.
You always have to be one step ahead of your drunk friends
--Daisy Owl
by Viliphied on Jul 31, 2010 8:59 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Thanks!
"I just struck out looking three times, but in any other ballpark those would have been home runs." - Aubrey Huff
by howtheyscored on Jul 31, 2010 9:06 PM PDT up reply actions
Thanks
That’s 37.5 million spent for 8 million in production, and we’re not counting Zito.
Giants best trade option: Bowker for Rowand, NOT BOWKER FOR LOPEZ!
Giants Front Office....Torture!
by Giant Torture on Aug 2, 2010 5:49 AM PDT up reply actions
DeRosa
:(
Proud Adoptive Parent of Jesus Guzman, RHP. 2010 Line: 0 H, 2 BB, 0.00 ERA. CALL HIM UP!
Bochy: What’s this fancy stat here?
IT Guy: That’s how often they get on base. I do not know why you keep asking me, I am here to fix your server.
I’m hopeful that he can contribute positively to this team next year.
"I just struck out looking three times, but in any other ballpark those would have been home runs." - Aubrey Huff
by howtheyscored on Jul 31, 2010 9:09 PM PDT up reply actions
ditto
I’m SO glad he had surgery instead of potentially ending his career by trying to play again this season and worsening the injury
Sharlon Schoop - de favoriete Nederlandse honkbalspeler van McCovey Chronicles.
You always have to be one step ahead of your drunk friends
--Daisy Owl
Do the math, see which side wins our
Don't play a dangerous game.
by Hul10 on Aug 1, 2010 11:34 AM PDT via mobile up reply actions
I didn’t realize that we were splitting up into sides.
"I just struck out looking three times, but in any other ballpark those would have been home runs." - Aubrey Huff
by howtheyscored on Aug 1, 2010 12:14 PM PDT up reply actions
I just hope you aren't on the skins team
The baseball Satanist
I promise that my adopted Giant, one Zach Wheeler, will not shoot anybody.
"I told the family lovingly slide"
Yeah, I don’t think my knee could take those conditioning tests.
"I just struck out looking three times, but in any other ballpark those would have been home runs." - Aubrey Huff
by howtheyscored on Aug 1, 2010 12:25 PM PDT up reply actions
Eastern Sports Pandering Network
Latest example: An article about ‘Contenders Adding Relief’….
And not a word about the contender that was supposedly in on most of the major rumored hitters, and yet only got relievers (and was one of the only teams, if not the only, to pick up two relievers).
"The knowledge of the game is inversely proportional to the price of the seat." ---Bill Veeck. •Check out the new look of SFDugout.com•
Ball Busting Trade
Hey wake up folks… when you lose your only two lefty relievers and your closer is out..who knows how/whatthefricklong.. at the trade deadline do you expect the best of RESULTS!!
Bowker? Really?
im not a sabean fan but the idea that bowker is amazing and could’ve fetched more value is ridiculous. it isnt like we were in discussions for other relievers and/or bats, if he and jmart were as valuable as you all think then clearly nobody else thought so…..
so far he seems like a 4A player at best, i agree bochy screwed him, its bochy. But if we actually make playoffs our rotation can carry us, i have no problems with this deal and am grateful we didnt trade real value.
The issue is less Bowker
And more JAVIER LOPEZ????!!!!
Aaron King is still my homeboy... iffy mechanics and all
McFAQ for all you newcomers out there.
Whatever.
"I just struck out looking three times, but in any other ballpark those would have been home runs." - Aubrey Huff
by howtheyscored on Jul 31, 2010 8:51 PM PDT up reply actions
I have no idea what Bowker would have fetched
Frankly, that’s so far off the point that I don’t know how to help you.
The baseball Satanist
I promise that my adopted Giant, one Zach Wheeler, will not shoot anybody.
"I told the family lovingly slide"
what bowker is worth is the entire point…if he is as great as you guys say then yes this trade sucks….but if he is a 27 year old 4A player then its a wash….i think the latter, but realize he got hosed in the minutes he got and hope for him the best…just like matt morris and alderson
hiring bochy is a fireable offense…but just because a trade is made doesn’t mean we lost a hall of famer
What Bowker is worth is different than what Bowker would have fetched
We didn’t have to trade John Bowker. This is a key point.
If Javier Lopez is the highest return John Bowker was going to get, then he was worth more to the Giants than he was on the trade market.
Nobody thinks John Bowker is going to be a hall of famer. Your hyperbole just highlights your lack of understanding on this issue.
The baseball Satanist
I promise that my adopted Giant, one Zach Wheeler, will not shoot anybody.
"I told the family lovingly slide"
last phrase was sarcasm…but i am glad we cleared out room for guys like neal and belt…out of the simple idea bochy will screw them if given the chance…having been on the nate bandwagon i think we should all be humble
Sorry I missed the sarcasm
The baseball Satanist
I promise that my adopted Giant, one Zach Wheeler, will not shoot anybody.
"I told the family lovingly slide"
General take:
The issue of the comparitive value of what was given up for what was gotten is academic: the deal has been made, and I strenuously doubt that it has materially changed anyone’s opinion—whatever that may be—about Brian Sabean.
Looking forward instead of backward, Ramirez looks like overall a modestly good addition (maybe even a little better than mlodestly). Lopez, even solely against LHB, looks somewhat scary; and against RHB (and it’s hard to avoid some of those even for what is nominally a LOOGY) is far worse than scary. I am worried that this will be subrtraction by addition.
To say that a nominal LOOGY will pitch very little between now and season’s end does not excuse much. A hand grenade only needs to explode once. Meanwhile, if this drives Bautista and eventually (when Runzler returns) Casilla off the roster, it is a small victory of sorts.
Think of it this way: Lopez replaces Bautista, and Ramirez replaces Casilla. I think I can live with that.
Lightning effects seem to have damaged my desktop monitor (yes, I have a UPS), so I’m using my laptop; even with a good KB (Thinkpad), my appalling typing skills are severely challenged. My posting will be limited fror a while, and keep the cheering down, please.
Professional baseball analyst since 1980.
'Tis to LOL.
After Bochy uses them 8 times each in the next 11 games, you’ll find that they are actually WORSE than Jairo and Denny. The problem is with how the pitchers are managed, not the pitchers themselves (too many pitches in too little recovery time).
The money lies in the RBIs
-- Jeff Kent
Rajai Davis, Fred Lewis, John Bowker
Three useful and cheap players cast aside for nothing.
This will be Brian Sabean’s legacy, at least in my mind. Forget everything else; Kent trade, Schmidt trade, Bengie trade, Nathan trade…Those three guys represent Brian Sabean’s legacy.
The baseball Satanist
I promise that my adopted Giant, one Zach Wheeler, will not shoot anybody.
"I told the family lovingly slide"
So giving away mediocre talent is his legacy?
Davis and Lewis were cast aside because of Bowker and Schierholtz.
And they are playing every day right?
Proud Adoptive Parent of Jesus Guzman, RHP. 2010 Line: 0 H, 2 BB, 0.00 ERA. CALL HIM UP!
Bochy: What’s this fancy stat here?
IT Guy: That’s how often they get on base. I do not know why you keep asking me, I am here to fix your server.
What does that have to do with anything? The fact is we have better players ahead of them.
Davis got squeezed out because of Fred Lewis and Schierholtz presence. Lewis got squeezed out because of Bowker and Torres. Bowker gets squeezed out because Schierholtz is a much better defensive player and we already had Torres, Huff, Burrell etc for the corners.
Davis and Lewis are playing everyday yes, but for teams that have shittier OF options than we do.
The Blue Jays’ entire outfield is better than every Giants outfielder save Andres Torres. Huff is a 1B, no dice there.
That includes Freddy Fred. Take a gander at whatever measure you like: OPS+, wOBA, WAR.
Rooting for Jose Casilla to take his K- and GB-inducing skills to the majors and join his brother.
No
His legacy is giving away useful talent. Mediocre or not.
And Davis and Lewis were not cast aside for Bowker and Schierholtz. That’s just laughable.
The baseball Satanist
I promise that my adopted Giant, one Zach Wheeler, will not shoot anybody.
"I told the family lovingly slide"
Reading through all of the Bowker hate
reminds me of all of the Lewis hate when he was traded away for nothing. “nobody wants Fred Lewis as a starting player” etc. etc.
The baseball Satanist
I promise that my adopted Giant, one Zach Wheeler, will not shoot anybody.
"I told the family lovingly slide"
I don't think it's the same at all.
There was significantly more evidence that Lewis could actually perform in the majors. But hey, we got to keep Velez!
VAE PVTO DEVS FIO
The point is that proclamations of certainty are being made
Just like with Lewis.
The baseball Satanist
I promise that my adopted Giant, one Zach Wheeler, will not shoot anybody.
"I told the family lovingly slide"
My point is that they were much more justified with Lewis.
They’re borderline ridiculous with Todd Lin..er.. John Bowker.
VAE PVTO DEVS FIO
I'm sorry, what's justified with Lewis but not Bowker?
We are having a disconnect here.
The baseball Satanist
I promise that my adopted Giant, one Zach Wheeler, will not shoot anybody.
"I told the family lovingly slide"
Proclaiming certain major league success (since the former had already done so and the latter has not).
Also, you left out the “more”
VAE PVTO DEVS FIO
havenot was talking about the opposite. People proclaiming certain major league failure.
Sharlon Schoop - de favoriete Nederlandse honkbalspeler van McCovey Chronicles.
You always have to be one step ahead of your drunk friends
--Daisy Owl
Yes, this
People are claiming certainty of failure for Bowker, just like they were for Lewis.
The baseball Satanist
I promise that my adopted Giant, one Zach Wheeler, will not shoot anybody.
"I told the family lovingly slide"
Well, i certainly don't think Bowker is certain to fail
I hope he does well in Pittsburgh.
Proudly adopted Aubrey Huff. You can't beat that!
I wasn't speaking about you
So, don’t worry about it. I could quote some other people, though, if you’d like.
The baseball Satanist
I promise that my adopted Giant, one Zach Wheeler, will not shoot anybody.
"I told the family lovingly slide"
Actually I think keeping Velez is another part of this deal
Next year, Bowker and Velez would’ve both been out of options OF’s and competing for a roster spot. Now the Giants have made that decision easier.
Proud father of Mike Krukow (who is more than 3 times my age)
Grab Some Pine, Meat
Still cheering for Kevin Frandsen
John Bowker: One of the 3 best OF's on the Giants roster
If the Giants sent Bowker away to keep Velez
they are dumber than I thought.
Proud father of 2-time Cy Young Award winner Tim Lincecum
"Failure is not fatal, but failure to change might be." - John Wooden
VROOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOM
Proud father of Mike Krukow (who is more than 3 times my age)
Grab Some Pine, Meat
Still cheering for Kevin Frandsen
John Bowker: One of the 3 best OF's on the Giants roster
Seriously though I doubt they considered that aspect
It’ll just be an unexpected consequence
Proud father of Mike Krukow (who is more than 3 times my age)
Grab Some Pine, Meat
Still cheering for Kevin Frandsen
John Bowker: One of the 3 best OF's on the Giants roster
Listen, you don’t just get rid of a guy who got hit in the head by a line drive. You have to wait at least a year, and then get rid of him.
"I just struck out looking three times, but in any other ballpark those would have been home runs." - Aubrey Huff
by howtheyscored on Jul 31, 2010 11:36 PM PDT up reply actions
I don't have the love for John Bowker as most people here
Joe Martinez is serviceable. But Javier Lopez?? A 33 year old left-handed specialty reliever?
Proud father of 2-time Cy Young Award winner Tim Lincecum
"Failure is not fatal, but failure to change might be." - John Wooden
by SFGuy on Jul 31, 2010 10:06 PM PDT reply actions 1 recs
A appreciate your sense of reason. Not being sarcastic – I think yours is a good comment.
"I just struck out looking three times, but in any other ballpark those would have been home runs." - Aubrey Huff
by howtheyscored on Jul 31, 2010 11:37 PM PDT up reply actions
I think more people agree with this sentiment than you’d think.
Mark DeRosa is playing exactly the same amount of professional baseball as his adopted father, these days.
I sum up this move as a big Meh. The majority of relievers aren’t really worth trading anything significant for and I don’t consider Martinez or Bowker to be that significant of a piece to give up. Both are fringe major league players and neither really have had a big place on this year’s team. They are easily replaceable and expendable. The only good thing about them was that they were cheap.
Lopez provides some insurance in case Runzler and Affeldt don’t come back soon.
I find it funny that people are crying over insignificant trades like this when we’re only 1.5 games back of the Padres and lead the Wild Card and have already taken 2 from the Dodgers. The same team (thanks Agent Ned) who just traded a good amount of their prospects + young 2b for crappy veterans and Ted Lilly.
You summed up my feelings well
I sum up this move as a big Meh. The majority of relievers aren’t really worth trading anything significant for and I don’t consider Martinez or Bowker to be that significant of a piece to give up. Both are fringe major league players and neither really have had a big place on this year’s team. They are easily replaceable and expendable. The only good thing about them was that they were cheap.
Proudly adopted Aubrey Huff. You can't beat that!
pretty much this
The only good thing about them was that they were cheap.
but that’s another way of saying it’s dumb to give both martinez and bowker for what they got.
its not so much as giving away big talent......
but we got nothing in return, javier lopez is the type of player you trade 10 bats for……
Special subthread: Lopezes you'd rather have than Javier
I’ll start:
Jose (Seattle)
Aaron King is still my homeboy... iffy mechanics and all
McFAQ for all you newcomers out there.
George (alleged comedian)
"You can always recover from the player you didn't sign. You may never recover from the player you signed at the wrong price." --Billy Beane
"I am not an idiot."--Brian Sabean
by Sabean's_Folly on Jul 31, 2010 11:24 PM PDT up reply actions
Brook or Robin (NBA)
Proud father of Mike Krukow (who is more than 3 times my age)
Grab Some Pine, Meat
Still cheering for Kevin Frandsen
John Bowker: One of the 3 best OF's on the Giants roster
Mario (awful actor)
Proud father of 2-time Cy Young Award winner Tim Lincecum
"Failure is not fatal, but failure to change might be." - John Wooden
Diomedes.
"I just struck out looking three times, but in any other ballpark those would have been home runs." - Aubrey Huff
by howtheyscored on Jul 31, 2010 11:39 PM PDT up reply actions
Felipe
Either the St. John’s basketball washout or Cardinals 2B.
THE GREATEST OF ALL TIME (for 3 days in 1995).
by Mike Benjamin Hit King on Aug 1, 2010 2:02 PM PDT up reply actions
The people on this board who are getting so wound up about Bowker being traded are cracking me up. I’m glad he got traded. Never liked the guy.
Everyone here who post like they know how to do Sabean’s job better than he can are free to apply for vacant GM positions across the country. None of you would last more than a month before being fired.
Maybe some of you should start working the phones for Sabez. Get some trades in the works that Sabean is too stupid to make happen.
by clubber workout on Aug 1, 2010 12:14 AM PDT reply actions
DO YOU THINK YOU CAN DO MY JOB
DO YOU
"I just struck out looking three times, but in any other ballpark those would have been home runs." - Aubrey Huff
by howtheyscored on Aug 1, 2010 12:18 AM PDT up reply actions
Okay, you can have a :)
"I just struck out looking three times, but in any other ballpark those would have been home runs." - Aubrey Huff
by howtheyscored on Aug 1, 2010 12:21 AM PDT up reply actions
This comment is worthless. I want that 5 seconds of my life back.
Quietly hoping Brandon Belt develops into John Olerud, circa 1993.
by AndOnTheDrums... on Aug 1, 2010 12:48 AM PDT up reply actions
We've seen 'em all in this thread
It was only a matter of time before we got the “you can’t be a successful GM so you shouldn’t comment” “argument.”
The baseball Satanist
I promise that my adopted Giant, one Zach Wheeler, will not shoot anybody.
"I told the family lovingly slide"
WHY ARE PEOPLE BITCHING AGAIN???
His name is Bond, Brock Bond, and his adopted father? ME, any questions?
They’re Giants fans. It’s what they know.
Utter frustration and futility.
Adopted 'nephew' to the ever avuncular and always awesome Jon Miller
by Johnny Disaster on Aug 1, 2010 12:33 AM PDT up reply actions
Oh… but the team we’re rooting for is only 15 games over .500… in 1st place for the wild card, blah blah blah, no biggy :D
His name is Bond, Brock Bond, and his adopted father? ME, any questions?
DOOM
Utter frustration and futility.
Adopted 'nephew' to the ever avuncular and always awesome Jon Miller
by Johnny Disaster on Aug 1, 2010 12:37 AM PDT up reply actions
I’m going to go into the garage and start the car now,
Utter frustration and futility.
Adopted 'nephew' to the ever avuncular and always awesome Jon Miller
by Johnny Disaster on Aug 1, 2010 12:39 AM PDT up reply actions
Killing yourself slowly by forcing yourself to refill the tank as gas prices hover a full two and a half dollars per gallon higher than they were when I was in junior high.
"I just struck out looking three times, but in any other ballpark those would have been home runs." - Aubrey Huff
by howtheyscored on Aug 1, 2010 12:40 AM PDT up reply actions
I enjoy a certain amount of luxury when I’m killing myself.
Utter frustration and futility.
Adopted 'nephew' to the ever avuncular and always awesome Jon Miller
by Johnny Disaster on Aug 1, 2010 12:55 AM PDT up reply actions
drive off of grizzly peak, you'll have a nice view
His name is Bond, Brock Bond, and his adopted father? ME, any questions?
Thanks for the heads up.
Utter frustration and futility.
Adopted 'nephew' to the ever avuncular and always awesome Jon Miller
by Johnny Disaster on Aug 1, 2010 12:58 AM PDT up reply actions
So
Let’s say I got a big promotion at work. My salary has doubled and I got a big corner office.
I can still be pissed that somebody ate my lunch and put gum on my chair.
The baseball Satanist
I promise that my adopted Giant, one Zach Wheeler, will not shoot anybody.
"I told the family lovingly slide"
Man, why do people eat other people’s lunches? I’ve seen it happen and it seems so… so… so low down.
"I just struck out looking three times, but in any other ballpark those would have been home runs." - Aubrey Huff
by howtheyscored on Aug 1, 2010 11:12 AM PDT up reply actions
I can't quite figure that out, either
There is a sign on our fridge at work that asks people to not eat other people’s lunches. It’s unfathomable to me.
The baseball Satanist
I promise that my adopted Giant, one Zach Wheeler, will not shoot anybody.
"I told the family lovingly slide"
It’s unfathomable that there needs to be a sign.
Utter frustration and futility.
Adopted 'nephew' to the ever avuncular and always awesome Jon Miller
by Johnny Disaster on Aug 1, 2010 11:49 AM PDT up reply actions
exactly
"You can always recover from the player you didn't sign. You may never recover from the player you signed at the wrong price." --Billy Beane
"I am not an idiot."--Brian Sabean
by Sabean's_Folly on Aug 1, 2010 5:33 PM PDT up reply actions
Not just low down, but nasty.
I don’t want to eat something that my coworkers got their non-professionally hygienic hands all over and in.
VAE PVTO DEVS FIO
After a couple of my lunches went missing, I might prepare a stinkpalm sandwich and see who gets the ‘flu’.
Utter frustration and futility.
Adopted 'nephew' to the ever avuncular and always awesome Jon Miller
by Johnny Disaster on Aug 1, 2010 1:23 PM PDT up reply actions
wash ur clothes and make some other lunch or just deal with it
His name is Bond, Brock Bond, and his adopted father? ME, any questions?
SO IT WAS YOU!
"I just struck out looking three times, but in any other ballpark those would have been home runs." - Aubrey Huff
by howtheyscored on Aug 1, 2010 1:34 PM PDT up reply actions
deal with it! OM NOM NOM NOM NOM
His name is Bond, Brock Bond, and his adopted father? ME, any questions?
Just don’t eat Johnny Disaster’s lunch.
"I just struck out looking three times, but in any other ballpark those would have been home runs." - Aubrey Huff
by howtheyscored on Aug 1, 2010 1:40 PM PDT up reply actions
Or eat it. Whatever.
"I just struck out looking three times, but in any other ballpark those would have been home runs." - Aubrey Huff
by howtheyscored on Aug 1, 2010 1:40 PM PDT up reply actions
might just throw it in the garbage
His name is Bond, Brock Bond, and his adopted father? ME, any questions?
HOLY SHIT. This is post is a joke right? I refuse to believe the Giants traded Martinez AND Bowker for Javier Lopez. No. No.
Belted!
by AndYourBirdCanSing on Aug 1, 2010 1:05 AM PDT reply actions
If we refuse to believe this happened, will that make it go away?
Giants best trade option: Bowker for Rowand
by Giant Torture on Aug 1, 2010 5:04 AM PDT up reply actions
I read some
but I can’t read all this
have fun
Daily Gameball and Joker at GIANTSBOARD.COM
Say Hey Say Willie, that Giant Kid is Great!
An anology
Your wedding day (stretch drive) is fast approaching and you already have two tuxedos. Through terrible luck, both your Affledt and Runzler tuxedos get tears. You send them out to get fixed, but have no idea when they’ll be ready.
You run around looking for another tux, but everyone knows your situation, so they’ve got the leverage. At this point, some would say, just wear a dark blue suit but, right or wrong, you really believe a tux is what the occasion calls for.
In the end, you end up giving up more than you wanted to for a tux (Lopez) that wasn’t your first choice; a coat (Bowker) and pair of pants (Martinez) that you might have been able to wear to work occasionally but really never had, but you still have all your favorite clothes. Sure, you feel like your should have been able to get the tux for maybe just the pants, but they had you over a barrel and fuck it; this is your wedding day and that doesn’t happen very often.
It remains to be seen how good the tux will look or whether the clothes you gave up will suddenly become fashionable and worth more, but at this point it was the best you could do without giving up any cornerstones of your wardrobe.
Proudly adopted Aubrey Huff. You can't beat that!
by Goofus on Aug 1, 2010 8:47 AM PDT reply actions 1 recs
Also
The tux you got has a hole in the buttocks area.
The baseball Satanist
I promise that my adopted Giant, one Zach Wheeler, will not shoot anybody.
"I told the family lovingly slide"
I’ve seen guys wearing that tux in line at the Market/Castro Safeway.
Utter frustration and futility.
Adopted 'nephew' to the ever avuncular and always awesome Jon Miller
by Johnny Disaster on Aug 1, 2010 11:50 AM PDT up reply actions
The whole problem with the analogy is the belief system.
The “need” for a tuxedo(Lopez) as opposed to the understanding that in the grand scheme of things nobody gives a fuck about a tuxedo(Lopez).
"You can always recover from the player you didn't sign. You may never recover from the player you signed at the wrong price." --Billy Beane
"I am not an idiot."--Brian Sabean
by Sabean's_Folly on Aug 1, 2010 5:40 PM PDT up reply actions
So why not
get out your Hinshaw tux and have it pressed? Yeah, you wouldn’t really want to wear it, but all you have to do is make the folks who are trying to overcharge you for a new tux believe that you might wear it.
"I don’t think I’ve ever heard a louder chorus of boos than when the Dodgers made the third out of the ninth. It was awesome.." - Aubrey Huff
I can see why
some people feel like everyone is overreacting to this trade. It’s a costly trade relative to the return, but it’s still something of a minor trade. Everyone has to get their two cents in and there was a decent amount of emotional attachment to the two guys leaving.
So, yeah people are overreacting. Of course they’re overreacting, though. This is a fan site. Fans get emotionally involved. Even those of us who love the engines of analysis and the puzzle-challenge of roster building do so because we’re fans. The emotion behind it is, “this is MY team, GINANTS BRASS WOT U DOIN TO IT?! You can quit your job and get a seat on Sportscenter, but this will still be MY TEAM long after you’re puttering around some cottage in New England.”
So, yeah. I don’t blame everyone for overreacting, but lets not overreact to the overreaction itself. This was an overpay, no matter how you try to paint it.
Things I think we can agree on:
1) this was a steep price to pay for a LOOGY, even Sabes admits it
2) If John Bowker turn into a good MLB player, it would have been nearly as remarkable of a story as Torres’s. I can’t really think of anyone who reworked their approach that radically in the majors. There may be guys, but I doubt that it’s very common.
3) that said, there’s still a chance that he could be a decent player. The same goes for Martinez, and those chances are worth something. Under different circumstances the would have been worth more than what we got. Which brings me to . . .
4) Javier Lopez is not good. As a bullpen fix, this is pretty weak. His shiny ERA is more a product of 38 IP than it is of any particular skill that he has.
The main thing up for debate is how urgently we needed a left handed arm. I guess Sabean thought it was pretty urgent that we get somebody was left-handed and could throw a baseball, because he let it be known that we were desperate, and that’s why we ended up paying what we did for what we got. But there certainly were other options. Carrying no lefty in the pen was one, going with Hinshaw or Espeneli was another. ( I would be happier the first than the second)
Another issue is Runzler’s return. We don’t really know how certain they are of how long he’ll be out or what challenges he’ll face in rehab. The longer he’s out, the riskier the non Lopez options are.
Mark DeRosa is playing exactly the same amount of professional baseball as his adopted father, these days.
I think we all can agree on HOLY SHIT, JAVIER LOPEZ??!!!!!
Aaron King is still my homeboy... iffy mechanics and all
McFAQ for all you newcomers out there.
And as much as Hinshaw drives me nuts
He’s been pretty good against lefties every seasons except in 2005 and his 3 MLB innings in 2009. I’d still probably lean toward Lopez in a vacuum, but not when he cost serviceable players.
Aaron King is still my homeboy... iffy mechanics and all
McFAQ for all you newcomers out there.
Hinshaw just walked someone while you typed that.
Mark DeRosa is playing exactly the same amount of professional baseball as his adopted father, these days.
but yeah
I would rank it
Lopez>Nobody>Sadshaw
but not really any of the differences between any of them worth giving up more than Joe Martinez.
Mark DeRosa is playing exactly the same amount of professional baseball as his adopted father, these days.
Oh well
Let’s hope that Bochy uses him optimally and Lopez comes through in every situation. Blegh
Aaron King is still my homeboy... iffy mechanics and all
McFAQ for all you newcomers out there.
I didn't put it in because my comment was reaching OGC lengths
But I think everyone makes too big a deal about L/R splits for specialty relievers. I’ve watched baseball for a long time, and I’ve never yet seen a LOOGY who didn’t end up facing a RHH in an important spot at some point.
Mark DeRosa is playing exactly the same amount of professional baseball as his adopted father, these days.
And this is not really pointed at you
But the people who think that carrying a RH pitcher with a platoon split would be the same as carrying a similarly-performing LOOGY are wrong. When you do pitcher-batter matchups, you have to look at both the pitchers splits AND the hitter’s splits, plus consider the overall talent level of each player.
Aaron King is still my homeboy... iffy mechanics and all
McFAQ for all you newcomers out there.
This
As for overpaying…just about everyone overpays at the trading deadline…it’s the only time that the bad teams have an advantage over the good one (of course the bad teams get worked over 2X in the FA market)
This is especially true when everyone else knows that your team has a glaring weakness…it’s not something that the Giants dreamed up…just about every GM in the league knows that not having a lefty in the pen is a big weakness
it is a weakness, but, you know, so is having Javier Lopez in your bullpen. Less so than having no lefty, but it’s close enough to be embarrassing for him.
Mark DeRosa is playing exactly the same amount of professional baseball as his adopted father, these days.
Agree as well
The question is really whether the Giants should or should not have traded for a LOOGY…
My sense is that Sabean was not willing to part with any of the “higher” prospects (Belt/Wheeler) and offer Martinez/Bowker to all the teams with LHP bullpen arms (Ms, O’s, and Pitts)…Pitts was on the only taker. All the rumor mills stated that the Giants were close to getting someone from either the Ms or the Os but it fell through…O’s elected to take the Marlins’ offer rather than the Giants (which means that for them Vandenhurk > Martinez and Bowker).
well, I’m pretty sure no team is going to give up Belt/Wheeler type prospects for a relief specialist (maybe Agent Ned would). This rest of that is pure speculation, though.
Mark DeRosa is playing exactly the same amount of professional baseball as his adopted father, these days.
argh
I’ve been on vacation with limited internet access. Trade deadline passed and I thought the giants didn’t make any moves. Then it turns out they gave away one of my favorites (Joey) and bowker, who I still thought should have had a starting job this whole season. For some 33 year old reliever? I wouldn’t trade bowker alone for that guy. Who knows, martinez could end up as good as him. I gave sabes some points for the molina trade, but this seems to show that no real change was made.
Adopted Giant: Henry Sosa
With Sabes its like momentum with elasticity, ie; for every good trade there has to be a worse and opposite trade.
Imagine how good the giants would be if Sabes did not make so many stupid moves. With his ability to garner this starting pitching staff, you would think he would be smarter in supporting it. Of course if the giants win the WS, then he will be looked at as a genius despite his miserable asset management. Its all the criticism that keeps giants management from making even more stupid mistakes. NOw lets go on and win the WS.
Your constant negative put downs are really getting boring! The easiest thing to do is look at history and recalibrate things. If only we all had the benefit of hindsight we would be perfect BUT that’s not real! Your credibility would be enhanced by a little more balanced look at things but I’m sure you feel you are "telling it like it is"-you are not! It’s just your point of view not shared by team ownership and a lot of fans. Keep in mind that you are the sports writer and not the general manager of the team for good reasons!
This is so meta
Proud Adoptive Parent of Jesus Guzman, RHP. 2010 Line: 0 H, 2 BB, 0.00 ERA. CALL HIM UP!
Bochy: What’s this fancy stat here?
IT Guy: That’s how often they get on base. I do not know why you keep asking me, I am here to fix your server.
rec’d
Utter frustration and futility.
Adopted 'nephew' to the ever avuncular and always awesome Jon Miller
by Johnny Disaster on Aug 1, 2010 4:05 PM PDT up reply actions
That second sentence is so jarring. It just doesn't fit with anything else in the paragraph.
The baseball Satanist
I promise that my adopted Giant, one Zach Wheeler, will not shoot anybody.
"I told the family lovingly slide"
The post was very good.
It put asset perspective on the giants labor assets. Multiple years of control of fairly decent players traded away in total for almost nothing of a permanent asset. Francisco Liriano was a good example of the giants undervaluing their own talent. Joe Nathan a prime example. But 3 players of whom the giants had control of, and were cheap were banished from giantsdom for not even a piece of kryptonite. Bowker, (homer potential), Lewis, and Frandsen, for some used up and stale peach cobbler. 20-40 innings of Lopez, for 5 years of control of Martinez and Bowker. Dumb move, business 101, and baseball 100.
I think Lopez
is under control for next year. And, while your points are well taken on team control of Bowker and Martinez, this control only exists in a vacuum. In other words, it is only worthwhile if you see them as a part of your active roster. In real life, guys are not usually going to sit idly by during the prime years of their career if they percieve they have no chance to crack the roster of their current organization (especially after they’ve both been given chances).
If Sabean wasn’t going to use Bowker or Martinez, and it doesnt appear that they fit into team plans, then its kinda crazy to think that Sabes can just stash them in AAA for however long he wants. At some point, they start bitching, they don’t play as hard, they affect the players around them. Further, other teams know that said players are expendable and the perceived value plummets. Just as Molina was not going to be the backup catcher for any length of time after losing his job to Posey, just as Frandsen pitched a fit after his time came and went, Bowker and Martinez were not likely to be happy about being passed over again and again as the new wave of prospects begin to come up in September.
The point is this – we can assign whatever value we want to Martinez and Bowker. But if Sabean had no intention of using them again, and since they’d both already lost some luster from repeated trips up and down, there was really no better time than the present to unload them.
And from a purely professional and personal point of view – which matters in real life but not on the internet – it was probably the right thing to do for Sabean to give Bowker and Martinez shots to succeed in a new environment.
Don't play a dangerous game.
Question for the orginal article....
Now if you want to look at Luke Scotts minor league stats and compair them with Bowkers go for it…Now what happens when you compare their Major league stats? Too Many people think what someone did in the Minors is going to transend into their major league stats …Now yes Im a Ginats fan since I grew up there but Ive also always been a Nolan Ryan fan therefore an Angels fan now heres where Im going with this part…
The Angels back a few years ago let atheir 3B go named Troy Glaus…Why cause they had Dallas Macphearson to take his place…Guess what…That didnt work out to well. This past year the Angels let go of their 3B AGAIN Chone Figgins for a guy that had MONSTER stats in the minors named Branden Wood…Brandons done NOTHING in the majors…
People were bashing Sabean for signing A Huff saying what a stupid move that was. Now Im not a big Sabean fan but you know what…where would the Giants be if A huff wasnt on the team? I Seriously doubt they’d be 1.5 games out of 1st place.
I was disappointed to see Bowker go...
…because, you know, BOWKERMANIA! But I’ve adopted a more philosophical attitude. Arguably they should have been able to get more for him and Martinez, but it’s a better return than if they cut him from the 40-man in the offseason and lose him to a waiver claim.
"I don’t think I’ve ever heard a louder chorus of boos than when the Dodgers made the third out of the ninth. It was awesome.." - Aubrey Huff
by EliminateMe on Aug 2, 2010 10:53 AM PDT reply actions 1 recs
yeah, this trade is pretty awful
I’ve been out of town, or I’d have been cursing from minute one. I believe I caught the headline on the slowternet on my mobile phone. I cursed and told my wife I hated the trade. Soon after I jumped into a swimming pool with Mister Toddler with aforementioned mobile phone in my pocket. Yes, the phone is fried, but this does not strike me as a loss, since I am convinced that Brian Sabean woke up today with chlorinated water clogging his ears.
I am not the most hopeful about these two, but their likely career paths are 4th OF/pinch hitter with pop and serviceable, innings-eating #5 starter. These are not stars, but they are useful. And two useful things just got traded for an arm I am not sure throws a baseball any better than my cranky, aging cat.
I’ll be shocked if we don’t look back on this and grimace for years to come. I doubt we will have to gnash our teeth as with the Pierzynski trade. That that is the highest compliment I can pay is telling.
Ugh.
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