SB Nation Bay Area Editor's Pick
Andres Torres : Decisive Battle
Andres Torres is a legitimate MVP candidate. Yup.
Wait what? Seriously?
The data doesn't lie. (That's right. Singular. Data is accepted as singular by IEEE, and as a member of IEEE, I will use it as a singular noun. If you feel somehow this is violating the integrity of the English language, deal with it. Now if you'll excuse me, I will go read another paper on quantum mechanical effects on floating gate scaling on IEEE.)
http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=all&stats=bat&lg=nl&qual=y&type=6&season=2010&month=0
4.5 WAR. 2nd in the National league among position players. But you don't care about that. You came here for the video didn't you?
Fine. Here's the Andres Torres Video.I decided to have a little fun with this one. If you like it, great. If you don't like it, deal with it. ;p
This FanPost is reader-generated, and it does not necessarily reflect the views of McCovey Chronicles. If the author uses filler to achieve the minimum word requirement, a moderator may edit the FanPost for his or her own amusement.
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Well done jctGamer
"Dodger fans aren’t happy when foul balls get into their section, because it interferes with their playing with the beachball"- Mike Krukow
subliminal Willie Mays!
love the Gipper quote! well done!
Neal before Zod!
Official Sponsor of the 1997 San Francisco Giants
by nostocksjustbonds on Jul 30, 2010 9:58 AM PDT reply actions
he covers much of center field even when he's playing left or right.
I like my beer cold ... my TV loud ... and my romosexuals flaming.--Homer Simpson
I'd rather have the "Most Interesting Man" commercial be about Andres
Timmy’s is kind of dumb.
“He plays center field, even when he’s in left”
“When Strasburg tried to walk him, he hit a home run*”
“The only thing that’s ever held him back is himself**”
“I don’t always steal bases, but when I do, I prefer third base.”
That 3-1 pitch was ball four, watch the (AWESOME) video again
*I wonder if he would be okay with a commercial commenting on his ADHD like this/would people get it?
Ain't no Posey like a Buster Posey cause a Buster Posey don't stop...hitting.
Giants baseball: We're stupid enough to do that (TM)
Rule question
Was Torres’ game winner against Fla. a single since only one run was needed to win or a grounds rule double with 2 rbi since it bounced over the wall? It seems to me it should be the latter just the way you get credit for how many runs score on a walk-off HR but it was reported on the radio as a single.
by NearestNorwich on Jul 30, 2010 10:12 AM PDT reply actions
Box score has it as a single and 1 RBI…
by Missing Barry on Jul 30, 2010 10:25 AM PDT up reply actions
I assume because it’s treated like a ball that would be a double, except that when the winning run scored the at bat was over.
I feel prickishly demanding!
I couldn't be prouder of my recent adoptee - Tim Lincecum's dealer. He provides the secret fuel behind both Cy Youngs. Also, he taught Timmy the change-up.
by giantsfansince1981 on Jul 30, 2010 11:26 AM PDT up reply actions
Yup
As soon as the winning run scores the game is over and no more runs score, the only exception is a HR where if everyone runs the bases properly all runners on base plus the batter are scored.
Well done as always, jct!
"I never watched baseball on TV. It's slow and boring. I'm not a fan. Never was." - Jeff Kent
FREE POSEY IS FREE
That Was Awesome!
I keep thinking of the article about him changing his hitting approach.
Instructor: “Andres, you tend to slap at the ball.”
Andres: “Yes. Speed is my strength.”
Instructor: “Why don’t you try hitting like Albert Pujols instead.”
Andres: “Ok!”
"Man, you just can't beat a good bowl of gumbo." ~ William Nuschler Clark
Whose idea do you think it was for him to use a bat that weighs more than he does….?
by Missing Barry on Jul 30, 2010 10:26 AM PDT up reply actions
Alfonsio Soriano
Recommended it to him several years ago, and Will Clark has been working with him on swinging through the ball instead of letting up on impact of late, consequently he’s hit some absolute bombs lately.
Giants best trade option: Bowker for Rowand
by Giant Torture on Jul 30, 2010 11:29 AM PDT up reply actions
do not mention alfonso and andres in the same breath
geez I hate soriano’s game. I saw him play in Texas when he was there. He’s kind of like Terrell Owens. Everyone wants him until they get him and then they just want to get rid of him. Not for the same reasons. But still…..
I like my beer cold ... my TV loud ... and my romosexuals flaming.--Homer Simpson
He’s been a pretty fine baseball player this year, and really thus far he’s been pretty good for the Cubs overall (it’s the next few years that are gonna be the tough ones)….
by Missing Barry on Jul 30, 2010 1:18 PM PDT up reply actions
I heart Will Clark.
/auto-defenestrates
by Uribe nee Gonzalez on Jul 30, 2010 1:34 PM PDT up reply actions
He’s not saying that Torres hasn’t been hitting well, or that he hasn’t been hitting for power, but he has been driving the ball farther, especially with the splash hit on Wednesday and the 450-footer in Arizona. That’s not going to show up in TB/H.
Ain't no Posey like a Buster Posey cause a Buster Posey don't stop...hitting.
Giants baseball: We're stupid enough to do that (TM)
No, what I meant was . . .
. . . that in 2009 he was already showing awesome power. His 2009 PF was somewhere over 1.9 (too lazy to look).
Professional baseball analyst since 1980.
Okay
1. What is PF (power factor?)?
2. Where does it show up in TB/H? TB/H is just total bases divided by hits, right? So a home run is a home run no matter how far it’s hit; if it’s a 300-foot liner that just clears the fence or a 450-foot bomb that ends up in the end of the bleachers, it’s still one hit and four total bases. And a double is a double if it’s a liner over the second baseman or a drive that bounces off the wall. TB/H isn’t going to tell you how far he’s been hitting it, or anything like that, just give you an idea of his slugging percentage.
Ain't no Posey like a Buster Posey cause a Buster Posey don't stop...hitting.
Giants baseball: We're stupid enough to do that (TM)
Answers:
Power factor is TB/H.
Yes, a home run is a home run is a home run. But the total number that go over the fences, by any margin, is—as related to hits, period—a good measure of power. Consider:
Batter X hits a large number of fly balls in a huge, open field with no bounds; they distribute at various distances. We can then draw a line almost anywhere and say that the percentage that got beyond that line is a fair indicator of total power. That will be true no matter where we draw the line unless it is so close in that almost every man hits almost every fly ball beyond it, or almost no man hits more than a very few beyond it.
PF measures pure power. Slugging average is only marginally related, because it factors in how often the man hits the ball between the white lines at all. Batters like Rob Deer, with his .217 batting average, aren’t going to have really high SAs, but they surely do have a lot of power. Combine that with a high walks rae, as with Deer or Gorman Thomas, and you’ve got a valuable player; absent such walks, you have comically over-rated but nearly useless players like Dave Kingman or Joe Carter. (Hence the scorn in many quarters for the traditional “dingers and ribeyez” school of player evaluation.)
Professional baseball analyst since 1980.
But this is totally irrelevant to the point Giant Torture was making. As I said in my first reply to you, saying that someone is hitting “absolute bombs” has nothing to do with how many home runs they’re hitting, but how far they’re hitting them, and therefore PF or TB/H or SLG or any statistical representation of how MANY homers a guy hits has no relation to the DISTANCE the guy is hitting them. So when you say
Lately?
Have you looked at his TB/H ratio from 2009?
this is totally irrelevant to the comment about how far Torres is hitting homers. I’m not going to argue that TB/H is a good representation of power, but so is SLG, considering SLG is TB/AB instead of TB/H, so it is more BA dependent, but then again there aren’t too many “only power” hitters. TB/H is probably a better metric to measure power alone, but the two are certainly related and probably give similar results most of the time.
However, none of this is relevant to the point Giant Torture was making, which would best be summed up by 2009 Johnny Damon. He hit quite a few homers, giving him a good TB/H ratio, but many of these were “just enough” homers, and this has not been the case lately with Andres Torres. I seem to be meandering a bit, but the point is that while Torres and 2009 Damon both hit a bunch of HRs, and therefore looking at their TB/H ratio would tell you that they hit for similar power, in fact Torres has been driving the ball much farther/better, as GT was saying. TB/H does not give you an indication of the “absolute bomb”-ness of the player’s home run, which is what GT was talking about, and therefore looking at Torres’ 2009 TB/H wouldn’t give any indication of how many “absolute bombs” he was hitting in ‘09, so even if he had known that ratio off the top of his head it wouldn’t have made any difference. I guess I should have said that at the beginning.
Ain't no Posey like a Buster Posey cause a Buster Posey don't stop...hitting.
Giants baseball: We're stupid enough to do that (TM)
Consider:
Saying that someone is hitting "absolute bombs" has nothing to do with how many home runs they’re hitting, but how far they’re hitting them . . . .
But those two data correlate—they are not separable, independent statistics. A player who is capable of hitting “absolute bombs” will park a higher percentage of his hits in the seats than will a player not thus capable: more of the bomber’s hits will go beyond the fences than will those of a man not capable of hitting the ball that far.
PF is not SA. But two men with the same PF will, given the same BA, hit virtually the same number of HRs. PF measures the fraction of all hits that are HRs.
Generally speaking, when a man has a PF of 1.8 or more, he is almost surely hitting some bombs, and the higher the PF, the deeper his bombs will generally go. Torres hit 6 HRs in 2009 in 41 hits. My memory is not the best, but I seem to recall some “bombs” among them—certainly no cheapies.
Professional baseball analyst since 1980.
Those two data can correlate, but that doesn’t mean they DO, and it doesn’t mean there is a consistent relationship that ought to make one think they do. To be quite honest, even if Torres has a high TB/H for ‘09, I wouldn’t assume, or even think, that he hit a lot of long home runs because I knew that statistic was elevated. All that stat tells me is all that stat tells me, that Torres had a relatively high number of bases per hit. I don’t know anything beyond that, and I shouldn’t assume it; if his TB/H is 2.0, I don’t know if that’s because he’s only hit doubles or half his hits are singles and half are triples or he’s getting some proportion of singles and homers or whatever. TB/H doesn’t even indicate that he’s hit ANY home runs (unless it’s above 3.0), so why would I think high TB/H = long home runs? For that matter, why SHOULD I think that high TB/H = long home runs, when there are quite a few scenarios in which it wouldn’t? The two are separable, independent statistics, which can tell us very different things. This is why I brought up ‘09 Damon: he would have a high TB/H, but a low average distance on his home runs, and unless Torres hits 24 or more bombs this year (unlikely, considering he’s at 10 but possible), then last year’s Damon and this year’s Torres will have similar TB/H despite very different average distance on their homers. And in fact you’ve validated my argument already: if PF did tell you whether a guy was hitting bombs, your memory wouldn’t have to be the best, because the stat would let you know. It doesn’t, so you had to go to memory.
As far as PF and SLG, I know they’re different, I said that. But if PF=TB/H, then PF doesn’t measure the fraction of all hits that are HRs, HR/H would measure that. A doubles hitter may very well have the same TB/H (and consequently the same PF) as a home run hitter as long as the doubles hitter has twice as many doubles as the HR hitter has home runs.
Ain't no Posey like a Buster Posey cause a Buster Posey don't stop...hitting.
Giants baseball: We're stupid enough to do that (TM)
Half and half.
It is technically true that TB/H does not measure HR/H. But in reality, the two track well. At larger-scale levels—leagues and teams—a time plot of the two (with the vertical scales proportioned) produces virtual overlap, such that even with colored lines it’s hard to tell which is which.
Meanwhile, doubles and triples seem not to vary all that much once one gets above true banjo hitters. In the very early days, when I was first developing formulae, I used to just assume some fixed percentage of non-HR hits were doubles, and another percentage triples, and got pretty fair results, at least at the team level (that was long, long before such numbers were widely available on the internet, or even before there was a widely available internet, period). While doubtless some men get a higher percentage of non-home-run hits for doubles (or triples) than others, the variation is not huge. Right now, for instance, the NL average is 22.3% of non-HR hits for doubles, while Andres Torres, who either leads or is close to leading in doubles is at 39.0%; that is a pretty big difference, but it’s the stretch from average to top. One just doesn’t find men with few home runs hitting twice as many doubles as someone else with a lot of dingers.
More generally speaking, hits distribution other than HRs is a lot more alike from man to man than it is different.
Professional baseball analyst since 1980.
Basically, the problem I have with going from TB/H to “bombs” is the assumption. You’re assuming that
1. A high TB/H means a high rate of home runs, which may be generally true, but isn’t always true
2. A high rate of home runs means a lot of “no doubters”, which again may be generally true, but isn’t always true
and I don’t like to make assumptions. Usually, they work out, but every so often they bite you in the ass and I’d rather be methodical and confirm my assumptions than just go with what I think is the case and look stupid every so often.
Ain't no Posey like a Buster Posey cause a Buster Posey don't stop...hitting.
Giants baseball: We're stupid enough to do that (TM)
Nice job.
I could use a little less Ronald Reagan though.
/auto-defenestrates
by Uribe nee Gonzalez on Jul 30, 2010 10:21 AM PDT reply actions
This country could use a little more Ronald Reagan
I ain't havin' it
by NuschlerFace on Jul 30, 2010 11:29 AM PDT up reply actions
I'm in this line
Giants best trade option: Bowker for Rowand
by Giant Torture on Jul 30, 2010 11:30 AM PDT up reply actions
If you mean unearthing his rotting corpse and parading it around the country. Sure. I would check that out of the gross-out value.
/auto-defenestrates
by Uribe nee Gonzalez on Jul 30, 2010 12:46 PM PDT up reply actions
Why stop there? Let’s see if we can reanimate FDR. The Archlich President who cares.
FOUR MORE YEARS!
It's Johnnie Walker inside.
by Lies and Perfidy on Jul 30, 2010 12:53 PM PDT up reply actions
Why stop there, indeed.
/auto-defenestrates
by Uribe nee Gonzalez on Jul 30, 2010 1:17 PM PDT up reply actions
Wrong
Seemed like a nice enough guy but his anti-government deregulation of all industries has led to many of the messes we are faced with today (financial/banking/housing mess, corporations polluting our environment, etc.).
It isn’t just a Republican thing though, Clinton is to blame for continuing and expanding many of these policies as well.
I’m all for cutting government waste and abuse but not government oversight of industry. I think it should now be clear to all that the “industry will police itself” creed was nonsense.
srsly
Fuck neoliberalism. That deregulation is the reason we’ve had four major recessions in the last thirty years and why we have a completely unstable economy. The deficit spending isn’t helping, though.
Ain't no Posey like a Buster Posey cause a Buster Posey don't stop...hitting.
Giants baseball: We're stupid enough to do that (TM)
ugh, demented person serving as president of the United States.
a recipe for, hey, just what happened.
I like my beer cold ... my TV loud ... and my romosexuals flaming.--Homer Simpson
Reagan just annoys me because he gets so much credit for things that are often big misconceptions people have. He’s kind of like the Kobe Bryant of politics. In a word: overrated.
by Missing Barry on Jul 30, 2010 1:21 PM PDT up reply actions
But, but,
the cold war is over!
Sent to you from the beacon on the hill or some shit.
/auto-defenestrates
by Uribe nee Gonzalez on Jul 30, 2010 1:31 PM PDT up reply actions
Oh, and I forgot, it’s always morning here.
/auto-defenestrates
by Uribe nee Gonzalez on Jul 30, 2010 1:32 PM PDT up reply actions
At work...
video blocked. Will have to wait until tonight when I get home or watch it on my blackberry :-/
Adopted Son:Matt Downs MLB , Now with More STATZ goodness !Matt Downs Fangraphs The Juan Uribe of 2011 !
A fine video indeed. Here’s to Andres staying hot and stealing more bases. If he does that and we take the division, then he has a real shot at the MVP.
When I saw his stats, I forgot about the 86 games missed last year for the hamstring problems. No time lost this season, so either he’s doing something right, or …. knock on wood.
Reverse jinx FTW
He’s going on the 60 day DL on Sunday.
Very well done
Thanks. You ever think about sending this stuff to the Giants?
Andres Torres – Energizer Bunny of the Year.
I like it.
I feel prickishly demanding!
I couldn't be prouder of my recent adoptee - Tim Lincecum's dealer. He provides the secret fuel behind both Cy Youngs. Also, he taught Timmy the change-up.
by giantsfansince1981 on Jul 30, 2010 11:26 AM PDT reply actions
Can you imagine...
The media mess that would be going on if Torres was in Boston, New York or Philly? Torres’ season is absolutely historic, there’s nothing to compare it to. I have not been able to find one example of a guy getting it like this at the age of 32.
Giants best trade option: Bowker for Rowand
Monte Irvin?
6 WAR at age 32.
Special case, I know, but jeepers, he played for the freaking Giants.
One day, young Andy Torres was looking through his old hard drive, possibly for porno, when he discovered buried in a directory a file labelled Dingerz.exe. “Huh,” said Andy, “I wonder what this does?” And because he does not give a fuck about your viruses, he opened it up.
And the rest was history.
It's Johnnie Walker inside.
by Lies and Perfidy on Jul 30, 2010 12:52 PM PDT reply actions 3 recs
why don't the pitchers demand that Torres play center?
I like my beer cold ... my TV loud ... and my romosexuals flaming.--Homer Simpson
Please submit this video to every committee members who vote for MVPs or Gold Gloves
I DEMAND RECOGNITION!
I’m not sure if Andres Torres will have enough RBIs to win the Gold Glove this year
Obviously any links in the above post are probably NSFW
The baseball gods do not always punish the wicked but they will not just allow people to spit in their faces -- Joe Posnanski
I wish I would stop cheating. fuck. this is jctgamer's fault -- jponry
both singular and plural forms are acceptable in daily usage.
Obviously any links in the above post are probably NSFW
The baseball gods do not always punish the wicked but they will not just allow people to spit in their faces -- Joe Posnanski
I wish I would stop cheating. fuck. this is jctgamer's fault -- jponry
Whose daily usage?
This is another of those countless cases where you can say it one way (data are) and upset nobody or say it a newer, arguably sloppier way and upset at least some people. The principle of Least Cervical Displacement (fewest people snap their heads up on hearing it) dictates the long-established plural form. Those who feel violently that following reasonable and long-established convention is somehow constrictive of their abilities to express themselves are free to soldier on for their cause, but do need to be aware that not everyone supports it. Possibly by some day in the not-too-distant future data will have gone the way agenda went, but that day is not today, or even tomorrow.
Professional baseball analyst since 1980.
Sorry for having English as my second language.
Obviously any links in the above post are probably NSFW
The baseball gods do not always punish the wicked but they will not just allow people to spit in their faces -- Joe Posnanski
I wish I would stop cheating. fuck. this is jctgamer's fault -- jponry
I hope you feel better now that you’ve pointed out how uneducated I am and how inadequate my English skills are since I did not speak a word of English prior to age 14.
Obviously any links in the above post are probably NSFW
The baseball gods do not always punish the wicked but they will not just allow people to spit in their faces -- Joe Posnanski
I wish I would stop cheating. fuck. this is jctgamer's fault -- jponry
"both singular and plural forms are acceptable in daily usage"
Did that not appear over your signature?
My second, and non-humorous, criticism was not based on your contravening of established principles; it was based on your rather dogmatic assertion that the established principles are not in fact established, and that there was thus no contravention. The first comment I made was scarcely any lashes with the cat o’ nine tails.
My considerable experience on usenet groups like alt.english.usage is that those with English as a second language are very often a lot better at it than native speakers.
Professional baseball analyst since 1980.
Data is accepted6 and often treated as a singular mass noun in everyday educated usage.7 Some major newspapers such as the New York Times use it alternately in the singular or plural. In the New York Times the phrases “the survey data are still being analyzed” and “the first year for which data is available” have appeared on the same day. In scientific writing data is often treated as a plural, as in These data do not support the conclusions, but many people now think of data as a singular mass entity like information and use the singular in general usage. British usage now widely accepts treating data as singular in standard English,8 including everyday newspaper usage9 at least in non-scientific use.10 UK scientific publishing still prefers treating it as a plural.11 Some UK university style guides recommend using data for both singular and plural use12 and some recommend treating it only as a singular in connection with computers.13
If you are not willing to move with the sands of time, go right on ahead and stay where you are.
Obviously any links in the above post are probably NSFW
The baseball gods do not always punish the wicked but they will not just allow people to spit in their faces -- Joe Posnanski
I wish I would stop cheating. fuck. this is jctgamer's fault -- jponry
I will also quote Oxford Dictionary
[T]here has been a growing tendency to use it as an equivalent to the uncountable noun information, followed by a singular verb. This is now regarded as generally acceptable in American use, and in the context of information technology.
We are in America. It is regarded as generally acceptable in American use.
Obviously any links in the above post are probably NSFW
The baseball gods do not always punish the wicked but they will not just allow people to spit in their faces -- Joe Posnanski
I wish I would stop cheating. fuck. this is jctgamer's fault -- jponry
Winner
Data can be plural or singular (I think the singular is technically datum) simply because that’s the way the word has evolved. Language is one of the few areas where the commonly accepted (usually) takes precedence over the technically correct, simply because that’s how language exists, evolves, and grows. Otherwise it’s just a random series of sounds; without general understanding of what particular sounds (or letters) represent, language is meaningless.
Of course, that “usually” up there is important too, and the reason why non-words like irregardless will not be words no matter how commonly accepted they are, because the inclusion of the “ir” and the “less”, both of which signify the same thing, violate rules that are held in place elsewhere. But when a semi-colloquialism like the singularity or plurality of “data” takes hold, where moving the word from the “goat” (change word to make plural: goat → goats) group to the “sheep” (do not change word to make plural: sheep → sheep) group doesn’t violate any rules, this is acceptable.
Ain't no Posey like a Buster Posey cause a Buster Posey don't stop...hitting.
Giants baseball: We're stupid enough to do that (TM)
There are . . .
. . . pretty much four chief, widely respected authorities on English usage: Fowler’s Modern English Usage (the original only), Follett’s Modern American Usage, Bernstein’s The Careful Writer, and Garner’s Dictionary of Modern American Usage. As that last is the most recent, and in general agreement with the others, I will cite from it.
data is a skunked term: whether you write data are or data is, you’re likely to make some readers raise their eyebrows. . . . But in more or less formal contexts it is preferably treated as a plural . . . Many writers use it as a singular, however, risking their credibility with some readers . . . Perhaps 50 yrears from now—maybe sooner, maybe later—the term will no longer be skunked . . . but not yet.
I daresay that is just about what I have said above. While there are now a fair number of people who will accept data as a singular, there are probably very few (if any) who would call the plural use an error. If one has to choose between what none find an error and what many find an error, the choice would seem simple.
For those interested in the three older writers’ opinions:
Bernstein: “Whatever the future may bring, at this time the use is still a solecism.”
Follett: “But there is as yet no obligation to change the number of data under the influence of error mixed with innovation.”
Fowler: “data is plural only.”
Professional baseball analyst since 1980.
Okay
But my point had nothing to do with what the authorities on the English language accept, because those authorities aren’t the true authority, the people are. That’s why we see new definitions and new words added to the dictionary, because those words come into parlance for whatever reason, and they are acknowledged by the “authorities” as being words. They don’t invent new words, they merely recognize what everyone else has already decided. What’s right is pretty much all about what people accept, and they’re really no more of a decisive voice on what is and is not a word than you or me, they just have longer and more detailed lists of words.
Ain't no Posey like a Buster Posey cause a Buster Posey don't stop...hitting.
Giants baseball: We're stupid enough to do that (TM)
This is "get off my lawn" territory now. I dont' care what Fowler thinks.
The latin word data (pronounced `dah-tah’) is the neuter plural past participle of the first conjugation verb dare, `to give’ (it’s actually also the feminine singular past participle, but that really, really, doesn’t matter). The english word `data’ (pronounced `dah-tah’ or `day-tah’) is a noun referring variously to measurements, observations, images, and the other raw materials of scientific enquiry. In this sense it originated in the physical sciences and computing in the mid twentieth century, and is busily and cheerfully spreading into other areas. The two words are, not surprisingly, etymologically related.
As a past participle, latin data is precisely analogous to the english word `given’, as in `I have given’. In latin as in english, past participles can be used as adjectives — `…accomplishing a given end’ — and even as nouns — ` ``The English language’’…from the point of view of any individual speaker…is a ``given’’, it is not something he creates for himself’; using adjectives as nouns is more common in latin than in english (these examples, like most of the others in this note, along with essentially all of the history, comes from the OED).
As a noun, latin datum is in the second declension, and neuter.
Latin data appears to have made its way into english in the mid 17th century (according to the OED, again), with english `data’ making an appearance in the 1646 sentence `From all this heap of data it would not follow that it was necessary’, illustrating the OED’s sense 1a: `A thing given or granted; something known or assumed as fact, and made the basis of reasoning or calculation; an assumption or premiss from which inferences are drawn.’ (note that this very first appearance of the word in english refers to a quantity of data, a `heap’, rather than a number). Datum — the neuter singular past participle — makes its first appearance almost a hundred years later, in the same sense. Sense 2, for the OED, is `Facts, esp. numerical facts, collected together for reference or information’, first sighted in 1899. `Data’ as a computing term is first spotted in 1946, in the Annals of the Computation Laboratory, Harvard University: `Two card feeds for supplying the machine with empirical or other data’. Interestingly, this is listed as sense 1d, meaning that the OED editors think this usage is closer in meaning to the `thing given or granted’ of sense 1a, than to the more scientific sense of sense 2: I’m not sure I would agree.
That 1646 quotation doesn’t suggest that the word was a particularly novel one, so that it will likely have had some prehistory amongst english-speakers. But that prehistory was as likely in latin as in english: it was in the seventeenth century that intellectuals across Europe were remaking science, and doing it, radically, in english, french and other vernaculars, rather than latin. As they remade science, they remade, reworked, and simply invented their technical vocabularies, against the background of the substantial technical vocabularies of the late latin in which they had been educated, and this is when words like english `data’ appear.
What that means is that there was almost certainly no latin word for the concept that we now identify by the english word `data’, and that to the extent that data was a technical term in late latin, and hence in early modern english, it surely meant nothing, or nothing much, beyond the slightly specialised mathematical meaning of the english word `given’ (as in `Given ten goats…’ as the preamble to a rather tedious algebra problem). If you know otherwise, I’d be delighted to hear.
Put another way, that means that the word `data’, as a technical term referring to the ore of observations, which can be painstakingly reduced to extract knowledge, is not a latin word at all. It’s a native english word with a latin past, which means, bluntly, that we get to choose how to use it, and if its meaning changes over time — as it has — then its grammatical analysis can reasonably and properly migrate also.
Put yet another way, Etymology can satisfy our curiousity about our language, or give colour, texture and ripeness to the words we use, but it can do no more than suggest how we actually use the words, when we do use them, ourselves, now.
Obviously any links in the above post are probably NSFW
The baseball gods do not always punish the wicked but they will not just allow people to spit in their faces -- Joe Posnanski
I wish I would stop cheating. fuck. this is jctgamer's fault -- jponry
That depends on just who "we" and "ourselves" are.
There is an instinctive recoil from the idea of “authorities” in language use on the part, mostly, of those who are not well acquainted with what general acceptation is.
A language is a tool. Users of it employ it to place thoughts in the minds of other users with as much precision and elegance as their respective skills and the tool itself permit. (“Elegance” there carrying both of its separate meanings: “pleasing by ingenious simplicity and effectiveness” and “characterized by dignified richness and grace”.)
This tool consists in a series of symbols and of rules for arranging them, much as, say, Morse Code consists of dots and dashes and patterns arranging them to convey meaning. It ought to be extraordinarily obvious that the greater the agreement on the meanings of the symbols, and of the rules for arranging them to convey meaning, the greater the available degrees of both precision and elegance.
None of that argues for immutability in language. But most of the invention in languages that challengers of the concept of rule invoke are in diction: new words are required for new things, physical or conceptual, and changed meanings for changed concepts. Much rarer is a change in the way words are modified in basic form, and much rarer yet are changes in the rules for assembling them.
Data has been a plural for many centuries, probably millennia. Its singular form, datum, is also still alive and well. What, then, the logic for converting the plural form to singular when a singular exists? When some see the word as plural and others as singular, all that has been achieved is a dimunition, however microscopic in this one instance, of the power and utility of English to convey thoughts with precision and elegance.
And there is no corresponding gain. Even the proponents of the dreadful singular they at least can claim some gain, even if rational analysis shows it nowhere near the costs it entails. What is gained by making a clear, simple word ambivalent?
It is for those reasons that those who are generally accepted as good writers and speakers, sound custodians of the linguistic heritage that Lincoln Barnett well called “The Treasure of Our Tongue”, almost to a one know and observe the traditional forms of grammar and usage. The idea that “the people are the true authority” requires us to believe that what the lad and lasses down at The Dew Drop Inn say determines sound English more—and more rightly—than what, say, Iris Murdoch or M. John Harrison or A. S. Byatt write and say. If one believes that, and sees nothing insane in believing it, then there is nothing more to be done.
(More here.)
Professional baseball analyst since 1980.
No, the idea that “the people are the true authority” has nothing to do with what the lad and the lasses believe, because they are individual persons, and individual persons do not decide the meaning of a word. A collective group agrees upon the significance of a series of sounds and therefore identifies some sounds as words and others as gibberish. An individual can certainly suggest a new series of sounds to define a new concept, or alter an existing series of sounds to have a new definition, but they alone do not dictate when a word becomes a word. This is why the people who write dictionaries ought not to be considered the authority, because they are merely the compilers of the list of words that society has agreed upon. I see nothing insane in the suggestion that a new word might spring from a lad or lass down at The Dew Drop any more than I see something insane in the suggestion that a new word (or new definition) might spring from Iris Murdoch or M. John Harrison or A.S. Byatt, and the only reason those people, or writers in general, have more control over what becomes a word and what does not is because their ideas have more exposure simply because they are writers. Exposure is everything, as one story of the origin of the word “quiz” will attest to. It’s not about being one group being more right, it’s about everyone being the same amount of right, and if you have a problem with one group being more right, then why do the “custodians” of the language get to be more right than those poor lads down at The Dew Drop? You’re right, you’re not arguing for the immutability of language, but you are arguing for the selective mutability of language.
As far as the logic or gain for converting “data” to be singular as well as plural, well, perhaps it’s to eliminate the need to know an unnecessary and unused word. Plenty of words are already both singular and plural, as I pointed out with “sheep”, and there seems to be no criteria for a word being in one group or the other, so why do we need “datum” when “data” can serve both purposes? And since “data” is far more common, as it describes a mass of information, “datum” is on the chopping block. Besides, if you’re going to point out the logical flaws in the English language, you should probably start with the basic rules of grammar, since those seem to be broken when convenient and without hesitation, for old and modern speech alike. Then, if you want the invention or additional definition of a word to have a specific gain, you’ll have to also ask why the letter “c” exists, considering it has two sounds it can signify, and both of them are signified by other letters, among other things, like why the word “synonym” exists, since it describes a relationship that shouldn’t exist if every new word or redefinition ought to have a gain.
I would also question the assertion that
most of the invention in languages that challengers of the concept of rule invoke are in diction: new words are required for new things, physical or conceptual, and changed meanings for changed concepts. Much rarer is a change in the way words are modified in basic form, and much rarer yet are changes in the rules for assembling them.
Certainly spelling doesn’t change too frequently, though every so often it does. But contractions are quite common, and have become more frequent in with the advent of texting, which I believe constitutes a change “in the rules for assembling them”, though perhaps not one which has been officially recognized by your authorities (but give it time; eventually “ur” will probably be in the dictionary as an alternate spelling). And truly new words are almost never invented; instead, another word is given a new definition, or a couple words are squashed together to make something “new”, or someone’s name is attached to something to make a “new” word, or a word is taken from another language. But I wouldn’t consider any of that truly new invention, merely adaptation, or possibly adoption.
I don’t want to give the impression that I don’t respect or appreciate language; to paraphrase Andy Fox, language governs how we communicate, and therefore it ought to hold a certain place of reverence in our lives, and we should try not to butcher it. But I do think that the stubborn refusal to accept the fact that society has defined “data” to be both singular and plural represents an unnecessary and perhaps even unhealthy fixation with tradition and “how things are done”; even if there is no specific gain to be had by making the word ambivalent (but really, there are always contextual clues to indicate whether it’s plural or singular, not that it ever matters), it has been made ambivalent, and you should accept that, just like you accept the fact that we no longer speak Old English. Things change, and it’s better to roll with the tides than against them.
Ain't no Posey like a Buster Posey cause a Buster Posey don't stop...hitting.
Giants baseball: We're stupid enough to do that (TM)
by quincy0191 on Jul 31, 2010 1:52 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
This is getting way too long, but:
No, the idea that "the people are the true authority" has nothing to do with what the lad and the lasses believe, because they are individual persons, and individual persons do not decide the meaning of a word. A collective group agrees upon the significance of a series of sounds and therefore identifies some sounds as words and others as gibberish.
Ah, quantity over sanity: the Majoritarian Fallacy, or “practically everybody says it that way.” As Wilson Follett once put it,
Let three thousand say one of those who believes while only three say those who believe; and as long as the three thousand do not also say we believes, you believes, they believes, the three thousand will be wrong from the only point of view that is relevant here, the point of view of form. Mere prevalence can sanctify many sorts of popular error—it can, for example, make words eventually mean the opposite of what they originally meant—but it cannot make a singular verb consort with a plural subject for the convenience of a writer who has not taken the trouble to find out what the subject is.As I said before, English is a thought-transference tool. The proper shape and form for a tool, whether a hammer or a language, is not normally determined by those grossly unskilled in its use. Whether skillful users of English, with some knowledge of and training in its wonderful ways, will eventually, for whatever reason, find it better communication to say that “the data supports this conclusion” than “the data support this conclusion” remains to be seen; for now, by and large, they do not. Pick up a copy of Scientific American, or any technical journal, and see how often data is used as a singular by those most likely to want the word at all, much less by generally acknowledged masters of English prose.
The “collective group” whose agreements a sane person will cherish are those who have spent much time learning the craft of using words, and who spend much time thinking on that craft. It is also commonly the case that the folk down at The Dew Drop Inn do not, in fact, “agree” on significances, but rather simply do not know the accepted ones and use whatever jumbled versions come to hand, which are often different from person to person. “Agree” implies that people have considered alternatives side by side and come to a conclusion which they prefer, and for some reason other than having heard some other lad or lass say it that way.
As far as the logic or gain for converting "data" to be singular as well as plural, well, perhaps it’s to eliminate the need to know an unnecessary and unused word.
What?!?!!? “Data” as a plural is unnecessary and unused? I just used it somewhere on this very forum, referring to power factor and slugging average as separate and distinct data; I do not think anyone will be appalled or confused. Nor, I reckon, am I some sort of Lone Ranger here: again, try Scientific American. What is vastly more likely is that the singular usage arose from clear, simple, sheer error—a mistaking of the word for some sort of exact parallel to agenda. And, to paraphrase an old adage, Error is twice round the world while Accuracy is still pulling her boots on.
Plenty of words are already both singular and plural, as I pointed out with "sheep", and there seems to be no criteria for a word being in one group or the other, so why do we need "datum" when "data" can serve both purposes?
(Was saying “seems to be no criteria” intended as a jest? Or do you also think that “criteria” is the same as “criterion”, a singular?)
Perhaps because two wrongs don’t make a right? Words lacking distinct singular and plural forms are a classic pain in the ass, and often enough require extra words, or sentence recasting, to avoid confusion. And we are supposed to want another?
Your reference to “society” having defined data to be both singular and plural has two problems: first, it assumes a particular value of “society” that excludes its most careful users of words as well as the most frequent users of that particular word (scientists); second, it begs the question by assuming that all, or most, or even a majority of users of the word use it that way, none of which are proven propositions.
Professional baseball analyst since 1980.
1. Yes, when it comes to language, quantity over sanity. Now, if we were talking mathematics, or science, or anything that was objectively right or wrong, then it would be a different story. But there is no objectivity to language, it merely evolves from society as a method of communication. If “practically everybody says it that way”, then there is good reason to say that that is how it’s pronounced. If you want to have hard and fast rules about language, then I wouldn’t advocate English; Esperanto may be more your speed. But languages that people actually speak change as a result of people speaking them, and if you want to stick to the traditional ways of speaking, that’s fine, but no one will be able to understand you, which defeats the purpose of having a language in the first place.
2. I was referring to the elimination of “datum” as a word, not “data”. I thought that was pretty clear, since I was arguing for something that would make “datum” an unnecessary word.
3. I think that “criteria” works as a singular. Webster seems to be pretty okay with it too. The question here is not one of validity but of consistency. If you want to question EVERY word that is both singular and plural, well, that’s fine, but if you’re going to walk around talking about “sheeps” then people are going to look at you funny. And again, it’s not a question of what we WANT, because we rarely get a chance to determine what we WANT when it comes to language, we simply accept what comes into the lexicon. I have no problem excluding the most frequent users of that word, as long as the majority accept it, and while I certainly have no information as to whether the majority do in fact accept it, in my experience this is certainly the case. And I find a corresponding lack of objective information in your posts as to the contrary; do most people reject the singular “data”?
Ain't no Posey like a Buster Posey cause a Buster Posey don't stop...hitting.
Giants baseball: We're stupid enough to do that (TM)
by quincy0191 on Jul 31, 2010 1:48 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
And while I'm at it:
What that means is that there was almost certainly no latin word for the concept that we now identify by the english word `data’, and that to the extent that data was a technical term in late latin, and hence in early modern english, it surely meant nothing, or nothing much, beyond the slightly specialised mathematical meaning of the english word `given’ (as in `Given ten goats…’ as the preamble to a rather tedious algebra problem). If you know otherwise, I’d be delighted to hear.
That is bizarre, coming right on the heels of your extract from the OED. You seem to want to take from it what you want to hear and disregard what you don’t. Priestly—a scientist—in 1777 (just as cited in the OED article) remarks “We have no data to go upon.” in 1691, Hale asks “Out of what data arises the knowledge?” Farther back yet, in 1646 Hammond says “From all this heap of data it would not follow that it was necessary.” I would say that in all those cases, the usage is exactly “the concept that we now identify by the english word `data’”. To claim that “it surely meant nothing, or nothing much, beyond the slightly specialised mathematical meaning of the english word `given’” is jaw-droppingly weird. (I am putting that a deal more politely than I am inclined to.)
Put another way, that means that the word `data’, as a technical term referring to the ore of observations, which can be painstakingly reduced to extract knowledge, is not a latin word at all. It’s a native english word with a latin past, which means, bluntly, that we get to choose how to use it, and if its meaning changes over time — as it has — then its grammatical analysis can reasonably and properly migrate also.
All I’m hearing there is “nyah nyah, fingers in my ears”. The word derives from Latin, is and has long been a simple English word, and means things known or assumed as fact—no more, no less. One of those things known or assumed is a datum, and a set of them constitute data. Period, the end.
Professional baseball analyst since 1980.
Simple Question
“How many data do you have on this?”
or
“How much data do you have on this?”
Obviously any links in the above post are probably NSFW
The baseball gods do not always punish the wicked but they will not just allow people to spit in their faces -- Joe Posnanski
I wish I would stop cheating. fuck. this is jctgamer's fault -- jponry
owl, this isn’t a formal context and you’re kind of being a dicks.
"I just struck out looking three times, but in any other ballpark those would have been home runs." - Aubrey Huff
by howtheyscored on Jul 31, 2010 1:50 PM PDT up reply actions
Nice!
Rooting for Jose Casilla to take his K- and GB-inducing skills to the majors and join his brother.
very nice, I have been waiting for a human highlight reel of Torres. but don't show tonights play in the ninth.
Man, he blew it ala Aaron Rowand. I do not know if he tripped before he missed it, or missing it made him trip.
Anyway, the gmen won.
Eh...
He covered a lot of ground on that play.
Rowand likely would not have even got there.
Just needs to make the catch.
by AmorVincitOmnia on Jul 30, 2010 10:37 PM PDT up reply actions
A lot of stuff that's not really my taste...
But well done anyways.
by AmorVincitOmnia on Jul 30, 2010 10:36 PM PDT reply actions
That was great.
I very much enjoyed it. Now we just need an updated Posey video, add a Huff video, some bonus Uribe clips and we’ll be in business.
COME ON JCT
Move your butt and get going! We don’t not pay you to sit around and work at your real job all day!
Ain't no Posey like a Buster Posey cause a Buster Posey don't stop...hitting.
Giants baseball: We're stupid enough to do that (TM)
this one jumped the queue because of his awesome game
I have a couple of other videos I"m working on. One of which is completely different than all the videos I’ve done in the past, so I’m pretty excited about that one. It will take some time, though.
Obviously any links in the above post are probably NSFW
The baseball gods do not always punish the wicked but they will not just allow people to spit in their faces -- Joe Posnanski
I wish I would stop cheating. fuck. this is jctgamer's fault -- jponry
GODDAMMIT
I don’t have time to wait, I’ve probably got things to do! Stop writing comments and edit fucking video!
Ain't no Posey like a Buster Posey cause a Buster Posey don't stop...hitting.
Giants baseball: We're stupid enough to do that (TM)
I have more papers on the effects of plasma nitridation on thermal oxide gate leakage to read. Sorry.
Obviously any links in the above post are probably NSFW
The baseball gods do not always punish the wicked but they will not just allow people to spit in their faces -- Joe Posnanski
I wish I would stop cheating. fuck. this is jctgamer's fault -- jponry
Are the giants going to sign cantalope to a long term deal?
I would, but thats because i’m a nastalgia driven fool.
Brian Wilson: "Don't Quote Me"
Buster Posey: "I Ain't Havin' It"
by slackersphere17 on Jul 31, 2010 12:42 AM PDT reply actions
Awesome video
weird thread
co-dad w/AfDC of
Ishikawa, the Topps Rookie All Star Team's First baseman. Does he get a chance in 2010?
"Because I don’t know what it means anymore, in the PCL. It’s almost like years ago."
"That’s not to say Buster isn’t fully committed or all-in. He is. He’s smart and he’s got the advance reports. Anybody who said he’s not ready to catch in the big leagues is crazy because he’s a pretty good catcher, especially throwing." - Sabean 7/11/10
McCovey Chronicles
Hold on to your dictionaries.
Ain't no Posey like a Buster Posey cause a Buster Posey don't stop...hitting.
Giants baseball: We're stupid enough to do that (TM)
Seriously awesome
Also known to haunt as theghostoftravisdenker and theaccidentalghostofsergioromo.
Adopted parent of good old Wendell, he tries so hard. You'll get a hit someday son!
by theghostofjasonellison on Jul 31, 2010 10:58 AM PDT reply actions
I just came back to watch the vid again
and I got the mad data knowledge dropped on me. Wild!
"Man, you just can't beat a good bowl of gumbo." ~ William Nuschler Clark
Awesome
One of my favorite FF songs. Nice DBZ in there too.
Proud Adoptive Parent of Jesus Guzman, RHP. 2010 Line: 0 H, 2 BB, 0.00 ERA. CALL HIM UP!
Bochy: What’s this fancy stat here?
IT Guy: That’s how often they get on base. I do not know why you keep asking me, I am here to fix your server.

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