Should Giants look at Werth?

by cuse7284 on Jul 21, 2010 10:29 AM PDT

Not sure if this has been discussed already at McCovey Chronicles, but recently read that Jayson Werth is available by the Phillys. Do you guys think that Werth is the bat that we need to make that final run at the playoffs? I'd prefer Prince but his long term deal plus minor slobbyness doesnt help so Jayson Werth seems like a good alternative.

From Rotoworld.com-

"Buster Olney and Jayson Stark of ESPN.com hear that the Rays are involved in discussions for Phillies' outfielder Jayson Werth. According to Olney, the Phillies are working "very, very aggressively" to move Werth. Freeing themselves of his contract would allow the Phillies to add more payroll, possibly in the form of Astros' right-hander Roy Oswalt."

What do you all think about the Giants trading for Werth? Who would you be willing to give for him?

This FanPost is reader-generated, and it does not necessarily reflect the views of McCovey Chronicles. If the author uses filler to achieve the minimum word requirement, a moderator may edit the FanPost for his or her own amusement.

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Cain is Able ...

by Norcalfan10 on Jul 21, 2010 10:32 AM PDT reply actions

yeah, who needs a guy with a consistent .370 OBP and .500 slugging %? Certainly not the Giants!

by FluLikeSymptoms on Jul 21, 2010 10:35 AM PDT up reply actions

Pat Burrell OPS .818
Jayson Werth OPS .877

I don’t see a huge upgrade here for what they would have to give up, not to mention Werth’s numbers would likely drop away from Philly or as I like to call it Aaron Rowand Syndrome.

"Triple A baseball isn’t very good. I’m going to tell you that right now. Especially from a pitching standpoint. Anybody who can pitch is in the big league." -BS

"YOU'RE A PAIN IN MY ASS! STOP BEING THAT" - Mel Gibson

by Giant Torture on Jul 21, 2010 12:33 PM PDT up reply actions

You mean besides the fact that Werth plays awesome defense?

by m34josh on Jul 21, 2010 12:45 PM PDT up reply actions

Yeah besides that...

If they can get him for Neal I’d be okay with it, but I still don’t see much of an upgrade that would warrant trading anyone of value.

"Triple A baseball isn’t very good. I’m going to tell you that right now. Especially from a pitching standpoint. Anybody who can pitch is in the big league." -BS

"YOU'RE A PAIN IN MY ASS! STOP BEING THAT" - Mel Gibson

by Giant Torture on Jul 21, 2010 12:51 PM PDT up reply actions

60 points of OPS (and 40 points of OBP) is worth (no pun intended) plenty, not to mention an enormous defensive upgrade and a guy that stole 20 bases each of the past 2 years while being caught a total of 4 times (both seasons). Nobody, other than the idiot below that wants to give up Sanchez, is suggesting the Giants give away the store for Werth, but he is very available and most people seem to think he could be had for a reasonable price. To just dismiss him as a guy the Giants shouldn’t be interested in is pretty silly.

by FluLikeSymptoms on Jul 21, 2010 1:43 PM PDT up reply actions

I'm not saying that...

I definitely think they should trade for Werth at the right price, but have zero confidence in Sabean to do that.

"He made a decent attempt to put the tag on him. That's what it looked to me, and that's why I called him out."-Phil's Cuzzi

by Giant Torture on Jul 22, 2010 8:18 AM PDT up reply actions

Here's ZiPS' projections for the remainder of the year

Burrell: .238/.342/.407 (.334 wOBA)
Werth: .274/.368/.497 (.380 wOBA)

That, along with the defense, is a huge upgrade.

by RoyaleWithCheese on Jul 21, 2010 3:45 PM PDT up reply actions

Was it . . .

. . . carried down from a mountain on graven tablets?

If not, one may be permitted some skepticism. What was ZiPS’ projection for Burrell on the day he arrived in SF?

Professional baseball analyst since 1980.

by owlcroft on Jul 21, 2010 5:36 PM PDT up reply actions

Agreed. I’m just pointing out that ZiPS’ projection is probably a little more accurate than simply expecting Burrell to maintain the level of production from his first 120 PAs with the team.

Not sure about when he arrived in SF, but the preseason projection was .230/.337/.415 (.336 wOBA).

by RoyaleWithCheese on Jul 21, 2010 6:40 PM PDT up reply actions

So much for that, then.

Professional baseball analyst since 1980.

by owlcroft on Jul 21, 2010 6:59 PM PDT up reply actions

Yeah, he's blowing by it

With his current .242/.333/.398 line.

I was promised lasagna.

by Cookyman on Jul 21, 2010 7:13 PM PDT up reply actions

Excuse me?

I asked about his projection on the day he arrived in SF. Since that day, he is .275/.367/.451; I would say that compared to .230/.337/.415, that is blowing by it. (Though I see now that that projection line was pre-season rather than “day of”, I suspect it would have changed little from his AL time.)

Professional baseball analyst since 1980.

by owlcroft on Jul 23, 2010 5:58 PM PDT up reply actions

Park adjest as well for strength of pitching?

Threat level that the 2010 Pads finish with more wins than the 2010 Giants is currently at: 61%

Spoiler: Grumpy older Giants fan is Grumpy.

by daveinexile on Jul 23, 2010 1:04 PM PDT up reply actions

I’d imagine the price tag would be Bumgarner. In that case, no. Anybody else in the minors, sure.

The Magic is inside all of us.
Proud father of the man taking your hard-earned money.

by ResDog on Jul 21, 2010 10:40 AM PDT reply actions

No way the Phillies could expect get Bumgarner. Werth is a free agent in two and a half months. The Phillies would have to go down a tier in prospects if they want to move Werth. Of course, not sure they should want to move Werth, but that’s not my problem.

I feel prickishly demanding!

I couldn't be prouder of my recent adoptee - Tim Lincecum's dealer. He provides the secret fuel behind both Cy Youngs. Also, he taught Timmy the change-up.

by giantsfansince1981 on Jul 21, 2010 10:51 AM PDT up reply actions

There is precedent for giving up a top prospect for a rental

The Brewers gave up Matt LaPorta for Sabathia.
The Cardinals gave up Brett Wallace for Holliday.

Those two were probably more valuable than Werth, so it’s not a perfect comp.

For the record, I’m not saying the Giants should give up Bumgarner. Just pointing out that it wouldn’t be completely unprecedented.

by RoyaleWithCheese on Jul 21, 2010 5:01 PM PDT up reply actions

There is precedent . . .

. . . for people jumping off high buildings and bridges.

Professional baseball analyst since 1980.

by owlcroft on Jul 21, 2010 5:36 PM PDT up reply actions

I’m sure the Brewers have huge regrets for giving up Matt LaPorta for their playoff run

by FluLikeSymptoms on Jul 21, 2010 7:09 PM PDT up reply actions

?

I’m not sure if this is sarcasm but I don’t think the Brewers regret giving up LaPorta. They had to make a play for it and made it to the playoffs. LaPorta has so far not lived up to expectations and the Brewers spun LaPorta into Davis and another draft pick.

It’s too early to call the trade a huge win or loss for anyone right now but I think the Brewers made the right call.

by slcgiant on Jul 21, 2010 10:01 PM PDT up reply actions

it was complete sarcasm

I think that trade is a great example of how giving up a top prospect for a rental can turn out to be an excellent trade for the team getting the rental.

by FluLikeSymptoms on Jul 21, 2010 10:09 PM PDT up reply actions

The point was . . .

. . . that precedent per se is scarcely an argument.

Professional baseball analyst since 1980.

by owlcroft on Jul 22, 2010 12:04 AM PDT up reply actions

The recent history of blockbuster additions is one of borderline teams who, if they manage to make the playoffs, don’t go far once they get there. Which isn’t to say that making a move is bad, but the team that wins the trade deadline auction is often the one that’s most desperate.The overriding impulse to sell out the farm for a Sabathia or Holliday is more the sign of a fringe playoff hopeful than that of a serious world series threat, and it’s difficult for a single player to change that (even a very, very good one).

VAE PVTO DEVS FIO

by Bhaakon on Jul 22, 2010 1:26 AM PDT up reply actions 2 recs

As many people have said over the decades . . .

. . . the best trade very often turns out to be the one you didn’t make.

Professional baseball analyst since 1980.

by owlcroft on Jul 22, 2010 1:54 AM PDT up reply actions

The overriding impulse to sell out the farm for a Sabathia or Holliday is more the sign of a fringe playoff hopeful than that of a serious world series threat, and it’s difficult for a single player to change that (even a very, very good one).

Agreed

Proud father of Mike Krukow (who is more than 3 times my age)
Grab Some Pine, Meat
Still cheering for Kevin Frandsen
John Bowker: One of the 3 best OF's on the Giants roster

by Gobroks on Jul 22, 2010 2:20 AM PDT up reply actions

I concur with your agreement.

My Bucardo is better than yours.

A hot August weekday, before a small crowd, when the only thing at stake is the tissue-thin difference between a thing done well and a thing done ill. Insofar as the clutch hitter is not a sportswriter's myth, it is a vulgarity, like a writer who writes only for money.

by Roger on Jul 22, 2010 10:05 AM PDT up reply actions

of course, if Holliday doesn’t try to catch a baseball with his man-veg the Cards may have gone farther in the playoffs.

by tyrannoman on Jul 22, 2010 12:44 PM PDT up reply actions

Werth is not nearly the player that Halladay or Sabathia were.

VAE PVTO DEVS FIO

by Bhaakon on Jul 21, 2010 7:49 PM PDT up reply actions

I said Holliday, not Halladay

Halladay wasn’t traded midseason anyway.

by RoyaleWithCheese on Jul 21, 2010 8:20 PM PDT up reply actions

Werth isn't the player Holliday is, either.

VAE PVTO DEVS FIO

by Bhaakon on Jul 21, 2010 8:41 PM PDT up reply actions

He isn't, but that's not really the point

Teams overpay for rental players just about every year. If the Phillies are willing to trade Werth, they’ll probably ask for a top prospect and hope someone is desperate enough to do it.

I don’t think Sabean is quite that stupid though – especially considering that trading Bumgarner or Sanchez would create a hole in the starting rotation.

by RoyaleWithCheese on Jul 21, 2010 9:03 PM PDT up reply actions

For sure

Just depends on the price. And how likely Sabean is to re-sign him during the off-season.

Aaron King is still my homeboy... iffy mechanics and all

McFAQ for all you newcomers out there.

by baetown415 on Jul 21, 2010 10:45 AM PDT reply actions

Since Werth is so determined to be a free agent, he would not make a commitment to stay here. So we would have him for this year only. Sure, Werth would be very motivated to prove his clutchness, which he has already shown in the postseason.
Front line starting pitching is what Amaro says he wants. Even to send Zito, who does not seem as overpaid as he used to, we would need more back than a rent a player. Somebody else must have a better fit for Philly.

proud, yes I said proud, adoptive papa of "Geno" Eugenio Velez

by foothillsfan on Jul 21, 2010 11:05 AM PDT reply actions

I'll pass

Werth bitches about our park every time the Phillies come to SF. Don’t really want someone who doesn’t even want to be here.

by omgimbrian on Jul 21, 2010 11:12 AM PDT reply actions

It does seem like he has opposite field power (like Matt Holliday) so his DINGERZ! gland might not like it here.

The Magic is inside all of us.
Proud father of the man taking your hard-earned money.

by ResDog on Jul 21, 2010 12:58 PM PDT up reply actions

I don't know

He is definitely a good player, but I really don’t like him.

Hensley "Bam Bam" Meulens!
Better than you! Mejor que tú! Beter dan jij! 良い場合も! Mehor than abo!
"The trouble with baseball is that it is not played the year round." - Gaylord Perry

by GrahamCrakalaka on Jul 21, 2010 11:47 AM PDT reply actions

This

"Triple A baseball isn’t very good. I’m going to tell you that right now. Especially from a pitching standpoint. Anybody who can pitch is in the big league." -BS

"YOU'RE A PAIN IN MY ASS! STOP BEING THAT" - Mel Gibson

by Giant Torture on Jul 21, 2010 12:21 PM PDT up reply actions

J-Sanchez for Werth

If they want a starter, he would be a good one to give them. IMO, he’s the weak link in our rotation but he’s a damn sight better than Joe Blanton.

These are my principles. If you don't like them, I have others. -Groucho Marx

by RDreamer on Jul 21, 2010 12:16 PM PDT reply actions

Great Idea

Give up a guy with a an ERA under 3.50 who strikes out almost a batter an inning who is under team control for the next two years for half a season of a struggling RF who when he’s on bears striking resemblance to Pat Burrell. Brilliant, why didn’t I think of that.

"Triple A baseball isn’t very good. I’m going to tell you that right now. Especially from a pitching standpoint. Anybody who can pitch is in the big league." -BS

"YOU'RE A PAIN IN MY ASS! STOP BEING THAT" - Mel Gibson

by Giant Torture on Jul 21, 2010 12:24 PM PDT up reply actions

I wouldn't be comfortable with that

I definitely WANT Werth. I think he’s a good bat and he would help immensely down the stretch.

But giving Sanchez simply isn’t worth it IMO, he’s at the very least a decent pitcher, we don’t have any particularly good replacements, and he’s under control for the next couple years – whereas Werth is a rental, only going to be here for the next couple months. And is 31, so I don’t even know how much I want him around after this season.

As far as I’m concerned, if we go for Werth it has to be for someone in the minors. And I don’t think that’s going to be acceptable to the Phillies. So, in sum, the price is too high.

Ceterum censeo fire Brian Sabean.

by J. Frank Parnell on Jul 21, 2010 12:26 PM PDT up reply actions

ehh

Sanchez is too inconsistent for me, walks too many people. Werth is a guy we could pencil in at the #5 spot in the lineup and he’d produce. He also steals bases well, unlike Pat Burrell, who isn’t a very good comparison anymore.

Then we could actually play Huff at 1B every day like we ought to be doing. We need to deal from strength here.

These are my principles. If you don't like them, I have others. -Groucho Marx

by RDreamer on Jul 21, 2010 12:33 PM PDT up reply actions

Werth has been worth about half a win more than Sanchez this season, we don’t have any options as good as Sanchez to take over his spot in the rotation, and, again, Werth is only going to be here for six months, Sanchez is going to be starting games for the Giants for two more years after that.

Again, I’d love to have Werth on the team, but Sanchez (for all his flaws) is too high a price.

Ceterum censeo fire Brian Sabean.

by J. Frank Parnell on Jul 21, 2010 12:37 PM PDT up reply actions

Subtraction by Addition

Woo-hoo, he steals bases! Pat Burrell’s OPS as a Giant .818, Werth’s OPS this year .877. So for that small upgrade the Giants would go from having the ever inconsistent Jonathan Sanchez starting every fifth day to Todd Walkameyer. They could add a guy who’s OPS is about 60 points higher and then insert a starter who has a FIP of about 2.5 runs higher (3.90 to 6.33). Hopefully Susan would step in stop this from happening.

"Triple A baseball isn’t very good. I’m going to tell you that right now. Especially from a pitching standpoint. Anybody who can pitch is in the big league." -BS

"YOU'RE A PAIN IN MY ASS! STOP BEING THAT" - Mel Gibson

by Giant Torture on Jul 21, 2010 12:38 PM PDT up reply actions

bah

It’s true though, we don’t have anyone to take over the rotation spot unless you count YEAH JOEY. I still want Werth and I still don’t like Sanchez.

These are my principles. If you don't like them, I have others. -Groucho Marx

by RDreamer on Jul 21, 2010 12:43 PM PDT up reply actions

Fair enough

At least you’re honest about it, I can respect that.

"Triple A baseball isn’t very good. I’m going to tell you that right now. Especially from a pitching standpoint. Anybody who can pitch is in the big league." -BS

"YOU'RE A PAIN IN MY ASS! STOP BEING THAT" - Mel Gibson

by Giant Torture on Jul 21, 2010 12:50 PM PDT up reply actions

Yeah, but Burrell might not be able to maintain an OPS that high given how terrible he was for the Rays this year and last.

by Dan from NM on Jul 21, 2010 1:13 PM PDT up reply actions

Just Sanchez? I don’t think it’s enough. We should throw in the MadBum and Posey.

Back on the market.

by positiveuphemism on Jul 21, 2010 1:32 PM PDT up reply actions

NO BRIAN DON'T DO IT

These are my principles. If you don't like them, I have others. -Groucho Marx

by RDreamer on Jul 21, 2010 2:13 PM PDT up reply actions

I don't play fantasy baseball any more

But when I did, my number one rule was to never have a dodger on my team. I won every year I played. The rule extends to ex-dodgers if the stench is still there. Werth is still a dodger in my eyes.

Do not want.

Back on the market.

by positiveuphemism on Jul 21, 2010 1:33 PM PDT reply actions

It would have to be like JA Happ and Werth for Sanchez

by MJ5 on Jul 21, 2010 2:24 PM PDT reply actions

Eh. He’s a best—case-scenario-Bowker.

Did you just boo a baby?

by danklei on Jul 21, 2010 6:20 PM PDT reply actions

Yes, the Giants should be very interested

Proud father of Mike Krukow (who is more than 3 times my age)
Grab Some Pine, Meat
Still cheering for Kevin Frandsen
John Bowker: One of the 3 best OF's on the Giants roster

by Gobroks on Jul 22, 2010 12:10 AM PDT reply actions

If they look at Werth will their faces melt?

Q: Did you ever make an offer for Vladimir Guerrero?
Sabean: In a word: No. If we had signed Guerrero or [Gary] Sheffield, we would have been without [Long list of replacement level vets]—obviously not being able to field a competitive team, especially from an experience standpoint, given our level of spending.

by Cody_ransom on Jul 22, 2010 8:48 AM PDT reply actions

Sorry I meant to post this earlier....

I’ve heard from several reliable people, that I trust, that there’s a reason the Phillies are trying to trade Werth.

I have no idea if this has been mentioned and I’m sorry to be such a gossip, but last month, the RUMOR is that Chase Utley walked in on Jason Werth having sex with his wife. It’s supposedly the reason that they have been in a tailspin and their clubhouse is seriously divided.

Don’t kill the messenger, just thought I’d mention it. Carry on.

by Sabean_Is_Iago on Jul 22, 2010 10:26 AM PDT reply actions

John Terry and John Harkes think this is awesome

by FluLikeSymptoms on Jul 22, 2010 10:32 AM PDT reply actions

meant as a reply to the post above

by FluLikeSymptoms on Jul 22, 2010 10:32 AM PDT up reply actions

For once, Sabean is correct

about his aversion to rental players. The Giants should not trade anyone from their rotation for a rental, no matter how good they are unless someone wants to take the Zito contract off our hands, which won’t happen either.

As much as I like Werth, there’s no way we should send Sanchez or Bumgarner to an NL rival for a guy who won’t be here in 2011. Likewise, there’s no way the Giants should send any starter to the Brewers for Fielder, just so Scott Boras can escort Fielder elsewhere in 2012.

Last night’s game was a good indicator of what they should be looking for: a hitter who can do more that slap singles when the opposing pitcher is on his game. DeJesus fits that bill, and would be here for 2011 and perhaps beyond. He’ll also cost less than what the Melvin and Rizzo are asking for their guys. Unfortunately, the Red Sox want DeJesus also, so the Giants may be facing long odds.

Responsible for the last great homegrown Giants team.

by Al Rosen on Jul 22, 2010 11:16 AM PDT reply actions

I would hope that if Sabes gives up any real prospects, the deal comes with a negotiating window. But unfortunately the Phils would definitely want the world for him if that were true

by m34josh on Jul 22, 2010 11:41 AM PDT up reply actions